the amount of times Ive explained the mechanic just for people to still not do it is insane. I've actually just started intercepting people's throws whenever possible to charge the ball
Tomb of elders: get special or heavy ammo kills or kills with abilities People I queue with: let me keep shooting my auto rifle. “Why did we not get the extra loot, you suck”
The best part is you get an ammo resupply for completing the objective. You're not at all penalized for swapping to your heavy or special and slaying out for a minute.
To be fair, I still thing the notifications are too small for things like the additional challenges of elders. A lot of the time I don't even notice it for like 10 seconds.
My problem with champions is how they will very clearly stun, the message pops up, and the sound happens, but the champion continues to move and shoot you for several seconds before they finally stun, usually resulting in your death. Extremely annoying and unfun
At this point, I've figured that this game is always going to be some fight between casuals, new hardcore and veteran hardcore players. It'll never end.
As a veteran (dark below), I’ll never get why people don’t just do what they want. If i don’t like an expansion, i simply dont buy it and continue to play without them. I think it’s cool to be rank 6 and still shitting on nearly every activity even though i am not up to date. I didn’t like the new modifiers at first, still not too big on them. If i dont like the gm modifier i just dont play it who cares
@DirePromiseHighCal its because veterans have fucked the casual experience too many times. Master work cores for infisions & sunsetting are great examples. I now never respect veterans of this game and their opinions.
@@grayterminal232 yeah and the game is more convoluted than anything now because of it. They should have kept things simple like D1 and nailed it, they just kept adding shit
@@grayterminal232 dude if you put the playlist enhancement core mod on your ghost and go do 1 (one) strike (maybe 5-10 minutes of time) you get like 1-3 cores. I can't believe people complain about not having resources when you are literally showered with them if you just play the game more than once a week
Hot take: just making health bars bigger, and enemy damage higher can work, but to a point. If you're at the point where the only way you can play is hiding around a corner and pumping 10 magazines into an enemy and ducking back when one attack nearly kills you, that's not fun or engaging. I didn't download Destiny 2 to play a cover shooter, i wanted to play a game where i'm a magical sci-fi super soldier, and there's way better ways to make that difficult and engaging, with more skill expression.
At the same time, asking for the only difficulty increase to come from a dozen more enemies you kill with one shot or one grenade anyways isn't going to be effective.
@@jhustmyles275 Wdym isn't going to be effective, you just described Doom and that franchise is a massive success! Yeah, if they fold to a lick (especially every single time), it'll most definitely be bad, but there's a need for balance that I think D2 doesn't really succeed at unless you're in low difficulties where nothing is a threat. What I mean is, the player even at the hardest difficulties needs to be given the opportunity to feel like THEY'RE the BOSS from time to time, and currently D2 at the hardest difficulties is ALWAYS the opposite unless you're using a cheesy burst strat that is bound to be nerfed (and even then, you don't really feel like THE GUARDIAN, just one of the many other guardians). In that aspect, I feel like Destiny has failed. Idk what they could do to fix it, if it's even fixable, just something I noticed that made me stop playing PvE in favor of PvP where I can feel like THE Guardian through raw skill when I dominate lobbies die to the hours I've dedicted to being good at games lol. Eventually, I just stopped playing. Other games reward my effort more than some shiny loot that's supposed to indicate I "did good." Especially for the solo players, it's horrible - I grew tired of sitting 5k miles away because it's the most optimal.
@@RemedieXYou can play aggressively and feel special if that’s what you want, it just takes a build designed to do so like consecration titan. You need risk in doing something, you can’t just have endgame content feel like you’re flattening it.
You’re not kidding. True story: last night I was waiting at a stop light to make a left-hand turn (in a left-turn only lane). A car had stalled out at the front of one of the two “going straight” lanes, next to my car. That stalled car had clearly indicated it was disabled, by turning on its “hazard” blinking tail lights. When the traffic light changed to green, the ENTIRE LANE of cars behind the disabled vehicle just sat there and didn’t move, even though there was another empty lane available to go-around the stalled car. Why, you might ask? ALL of the drivers in the cars behind the stalled car had their heads and attention locked downward on their phone screens. I sat there laughing, as a dozen cars just sat there unmoving throughout a full two-minute green light cycle. Situational awareness is severely lacking in modern society. It’s really bad.
@@BahamutBreakerit’s just sad honestly these people care more about their phones than the real world and their safety and everyone else’s while driving.
the hatred of any and all difficulty is a direct result of the game being designed around loot and grinding. Destiny players view the game as a chore to be done to get their prize, not an experience that has value in and of itself.
This is why I don't enjoy playing the game very much anymore. It's a looter shooter, yes, but the main gameplay loop is designed to be the *pursuit* of the loot rather than actually playing with it. Anytime they try to make the "playing with loot" part more interesting, the community forces them to undo it. So we just end up with a bunch of content in the game that offers little resistance and too few opportunities to think about our loot in an interesting way. It's the reason why the community's proposed universal solution to everything is to just make it easier to get loot. Strikes are boring? Incentivize people with loot. Raiding is hard to get into? Incentivize people with loot. PvP sucks? Incentivize people with loot. I have enough loot to play with and I barely play the game anymore. What I don't have is content that makes me think about the game in novel ways. Pursuit for the sake of the pursuit just leaves you feeling empty when you've reached the end.
You cant make overly difficult content and then force people to run it dozens of times for a particular thing. Outside of Raids and Dungeons, the experience trying to achieve loot is extremely monotonous and boring. The looter aspect of the game is nothing more than an excuse for the devs to spend less time making new content to retain players by just forcing you to replay the same stuff repeatedly for shiny new toys. You either play for the loot or you play for the content, the only people who play for the loot chase itself are addict gamblers.
If it’s starting to feel like a chore then take a break. There are a million games out there including free to play which r similar to destiny. There’s nothing wrong with taking a break from a game you love and honestly I think it should be encouraged cause then you kind of have a new found respect for it when u get back to playing it again
I think this video captures the essential problem: there are many different ways to modify difficulty, and the community hating all of them actually means subsets of the community dislike different methods, because they prefer to play the game in a certain way. The solution? A Supergiant Games-style heat system where you can customize difficulty modifiers for increased rewards, choosing which types of difficulty you're most comfortable with. That way, those of us who like gameplay-style difficulty modifiers like counterfeit and grounded can lean into our FPS skills, and build crafting experts can lean into difficulty options that are all about efficiency and maximizing your build potential. And I think Bungie recognized this too, which is why they talked about how they're introducing a system like Hades Pact of Punishment...next year? I forget when exactly.
We could put Shaxx in charge of it like in Into the Light; he’s all about training Guardians. Like instead of the pact of punishment he gives you the scroll of challenges (or whatever): the more modifiers you activate the better the rewards, possibly shiny weapons, and he could give bounties like “do 3 strike with x modifier” or “combine modifiers x and y” and such for reputation so that in the end, you have at least one good weapon/shiny for sure.
Datto neglected to mention that counterfeit was paired with famine during Light Blade. So you were starve of ammo and when it did drop you got a bomb instead.
@aspserpent dang what a well crafted response. Your last point was especially poignant, read like a doctoral thesis. So do you charge for the clinics you put on or is that a write off for charity?
The problem with these modifiers is that they're just annoying enough you're aware of them but not enough to really matter. It's like a fly buzzing around your ear. It's doing you know harm but it's annoying as shit to have to deal with, and we are 10 year deep in Destiny. Things that annoy the players that are already barely hanging on aren't advisable at the moment.
This community has the most hate for their own game that I've seen. And I play League of Legends. Destiny players just don't want to play the game at all. Because they don't like it as much as they think they do anymore. Grown adults logging in every day, not enjoying themselves at all, and they can't figure out why? I'm sorry, did your emotional development stop when you were in high school? Jesus.
@@moopey1837 I honestly believe most Destiny players need to take a break from the game. Like a totally complete break. No logging on for whatever. No keeping up with news and updates. Just uninstall and play the millions of other games in your backlog that is collecting dust because you shouldn't be playing a game that you don't enjoy.
@@Lamonticusaddiction. And I say that as a the player described. My brothers always ask me why I never moved on. I’m an adult and I get very little time to play and it’s the only thing I can jump into and not have to commit hours or develop a complete understanding of new systems etc.
@@Kcq11 you do realize that is somewhat self imposed tho right? also like isnt half the fun of a game learning the new systems and gaining an understanding of them? like i get if you only have a little bit of time to play the game but honestly if that is the case why should bungie cater the entire experience to people who can only play for 2 hours a week and just want to do vanguard ops?
@@Kcq11 I get ya, man. I was addicted to Destiny 2 myself. I love the game but I hit a point where my enjoyment of the game was eclipsed by my frustration with certain systems within the game. So I decided to take a break during Season the Witch and man was that the most free I've been for some time. I played a shit ton of BG3. I guarantee that taking a break and finding something else to play (please not another live service game) or something else to do will be better than playing a game that you only play because you have to. If you need a mindless game to turn you brain off to for after work that doesn't require a lot of commitment or super deep understanding of systems, try Vampire Survivors if you haven't.
My spicy take on difficulty is that the game does very little to ratchet up difficulty in a way that teaches the player to engage with more complex mechanics and more advanced dps strategies. You can run Nightfalls like a champ and everything you've learned up to that point does little to prepare you for a Dungeon or Raid. Simply popping your super and unloading your heavy weapon will flatten a strike boss but do very little to a dungeon boss. Exotic Missions have bridged the gap a little, but more opportunities to do complex mechanics without being in constant danger or to experiment with DPS rotations in a training room environment would be a huge boon to players seeking to elevate their own gameplay.
I don't think this is a hot take at all. I think Bungie should bring in something to bridge the gap a little bit, something between strikes and dungeons like you said. Bringing in a training room where you can test things would be amazing. Maybe the ability to spawn in champions, or even a specific dungeon/raid boss as a way to practice would be really cool.
We did have that room, it was called the Tribute Hall, added Season of Opulence. It was kinda moot by Arrivals because the highest hp enemy was an Orge. Making dps testing impossible because it would just die. It did exist though.
The destiny community is undefeated at being braindead. The same ones that post on reddit and yt comments are the same ones that beat their heads against the wall til it bleeds, then complain that bungie made the wall too hard. You have the tools, you have a million guides and videos to hold your hand even tighter. The problem is the entitlement
It’s not up to the game to teach you those things, use some critical thinking and find out stuff on your own for a change, that’s how you get good at the game.
I think the issue is Bungie pushed modifiers into all parts of the game, where it should only be for the tougher content. People aren't looking for a challenge in the Vanguard Ops playlist, the single round of Tomb of the Elders, or the only 10 rounds of Onslaught. Those are podcast/music on, brain off modes. And no, those aren't "get good" modes
I saw people complaining about it most for GMs, which is the issue. People want their "hard" content to be as easy as possible and anything that makes them change how they play is branded as "restricting"
The issue is bungie listened too much to everyone. The community has gone a total ego trip for a fucking decade screaming a crying about how the game should or shouldn’t be. Why tf do you want brain dead content in an fps at all? If you don’t wanna think go play stardew valley. Go play bloons td 6.
2:00 You say that only the D2 community considers enemies with more HP & DMG to be artificial difficulty. Most gamming communities I've seen consider that to be artificial difficulty as it doesn't make things harder it just makes things more punishing. An enemy going from 100hp to 500hp only makes them take longer to kill and adds no extra challenge. People have complained about this in many games (especially Bethesda ones). As for the ai, changing it's accuracy and how often they attack doesn't actually affect the ai at all. The ai and how it behaves it still exactly the same, just now it has increased firerate and accuracy stats. The ai doesn't react in new ways like try to flank you, co-ordinate with one another, dive in and out of cover or even try to avoid incoming grenades.
Agree with the AI stuff. Wasn't it Halo: CE where if you stayed behind cover for too long grunts would become suicide bombers? I can imagine the impending freakout coming from players in regards to avoiding thrown grenades because "now their grenade build is useless" or something. It's fun to wipe out a whole wave of enemies with one grenade, but that shouldn't work against anything other than thrall.
@@mikael100100 Literally ANY form of difficulty is inherently more annoying to anyone who doesn't already enjoy that form of difficulty. And you are not gonna find a single form of difficulty that everyone finds fun.
@@mikael100100 It requires a microsecond of staring at a brick and not picking up every yellow engram you saw, I cannot or honestly more accurately I simply refuse to believe it was so annoying it stopped you from doing anything. Destiny players when they have to play the game: why do I have to play the game? bungie please nerf this
@@DespressoEspresso43 but why? shoot to loot adds nothing you can't collect those fake ammo drops, the only good perk would be explosive payload to get multiple at a time and it's more forgiving but it's already pretty meta.
My biggest problem with difficulty in destiny is just how much it really restricts build variety (especially now that there are so many possible builds ). It gets to the point where 75% of your exotics are worthless, half the supers are too high risk/low reward, and even close range/aggressive builds can’t be used because of the sheer amount of incoming damage.
The most common build I've seen used is HOIL Syntho consecration titans just deleting rooms.... if anything long range builds are basically a non-factor in the current sandbox
@@21o36 This still proves their point. You get one, maybe two, meta builds to even clear some content reasonably. It being a melee titan doesn't really change anything
Honestly thought it would be worse than it was when I heard about it but in practice I just brought Khvostov with shoot to loot and just played more careful when it came to picking up ammo
Pretty much. It was a big WTF moment the first time I got killed by one. I think that it can work well at times but its a little too rough in some add dense areas where you end up with a ton of things that can explode while you're dealing with 20ish mobs in a smaller area.
Big thing with methods to increase difficulty, on increasing hp/damage of enemies and putting in time limits is that you can overdo those things. If you overdo those things, you pretty much pigeonhole people into having to do dps builds. A lot of devs tend to get those mechanics wrong so people generally tend to not like them in general.
The problem with immunity phases is that it doesn’t escalate any difficulty or create a challenge; it just makes you repeat your gameplay and extends the time it takes to accomplish the task. It doesn’t change or alter anything-just lengthens the time it takes to complete it.
But the problem isn’t actually from the immunity phase itself. Endurance fights can be fun and engaging, the issue is that during immunity phases the difficulty doesn’t add up. What should be happening for boss fights with immunity phases is that the volume, and difficulty of ads should get higher. Start with red bars, after 1st immunity throw in yellow bars and wyverns, after 2nd immunity throw in champs. Something like that.
Its really only when there are like tons of immunity phases that it gets silly. There should be like two or three max, first time to show you know the mechanic and second time to show you didnt just get lucky.
my main gripe is difficulty spikes w/o tutorials. Sure HAVE hard content. But if the only way to overcome is to watch an hour of buildcrafting videos and it's NOT a raid, I'm upset
There's a difference between annoying, and difficult. Increased enemy health? Difficult. Take damage when not moving? Annoying. More enemy density? Difficulty. Exploding ammo AND FUCKING ENGRAMS. ANNOYING
I think most of the problem with most of the current modifiers isn’t the modifiers themselves it’s the environment they’re expected to live in.. if the stated objective of Counterfeit is as you said “stay out of melee range and don’t use finishers or you have a 25% chance of dying” then this should not be in the game while we ONLY have Anti-Barrier Shotgun and two artifact mods that shield and produce AoE on Finishers. Banes, all good, fantastic idea, except and because Banes never announce themselves like Champions do you’re not sure if it’s a Drain Bane while you’re on Brawn (eek!) or not until you’re looking at your own corpse. Half the mechanics are “break line of sight” but you need to make line of sight to see the health bar to identify which Bane it is if you do get lucky enough to see them coming. We all know the changes coming in Frontiers though, there are going to be like Nightfall cards again, so you can ramp up score with challenges and extra modifiers, and we are just playing beta tester for a bunch of ideas that are eventually going to be mostly chosen like Skulls in Halo for the hardcore gamers. That’s a frustrating environment to play in if you’re not a Datto or an Aztecross because you’re being pushed out of content for 6 months while everything’s flakey, inconsistent, Really Unfair Combination This Week, and so on.
One thing a lot of the streaming/youtube community seems to be out of touch with is the time commitments they can afford to make since they are being paid to play the game, makes the opinions a little too strongly out of touch with average players who don't have 6+ hours, hell even 2+ hours a day to dedicate to a game, not to mention variety game players wanting to play different games.
@ absolutely agree. I don’t want to organize doing Conqueror with my clanmates and then find out the modifiers are absolutely heinous that week. Same as why rotating burns on dungeons was a bad idea. It just makes the game suck for weeks on end. We don’t have every exotic, we don’t have time to grind the perfect god roll weapon.
@@PrejudicePain lol no, even when I play this a couple hours every week I can still do gms with counterfeits. maybe if you don't play the game enough to be in some of the hardest content in the game, you shouldn't play the hardest content in the game. get good LMAO
@@noritsukenji I guild conqueror seal everytime it becomes available man, I just don't like how much time I have to spend in orbit switching things around instead of in the Nightfalls actually playing.
@@noritsukenjiand this is why people don’t take yall seriously because yall double down at beating an ass because you have no lives or play the game as a job.
Proving the point of the video. What do you propose if they can’t do modifiers, timers, or base stat increases to enemies as they all are viewed as lazy to you. How do you add difficulty?
@@marshmallofluff Timers are definitely just lazy, modifiers *maybe*, and extra health/damage BY ITSELF is also pretty bad design in most games. There's plenty of interactive mechanics that you can add to boss fights. That's the point the community is making. In terms of standard enemies, I think destiny has a great example of increased difficulty with champions. They pose a legitimate threat, have interactive mechanics that also require build consideration, and for the most part require good positioning and coordination from your team to take care of effectively. Adding a new variant of champion would be interesting. Only increasing the health of them doesn't change anything about the fight, you just have to repeat the process again.
I liked how Counterfeit made me bust out my Explosive Payload + Shoot to Loot scout for that Lightblade GM, it's really cool when your niche rolls that "Might be good later" actually do get a use case and aren't just there to take up a vault space because it might get useful. I get that it was annoying when god decided that ONE thrall that got close to you was also gonna have a fake exotic engram to blow up in your face, but you also got 10+ rez tokens, it's fine, deal with it ya babies, and bust out your cool niche rolls. A loadout full of Autoloding Holster + Harmony weapons would go hard in that modifier that makes you swap your guns all the time, that sounds fun as hell. Turns out you CAN buildcraft your way into these modifiers.
What do you mean "increased health and damage is referred to _pretty much only in this community_ as artificial difficulty?" That's how the phrase is used in every video game community that I've seen except *Mario Kart.* Artificial difficulty was NOT invented by the Destiny community, and it's pretty universally disliked from what I've seen.
I don't think counterfeit was a good modifier. All it did was require people to play super passively in content that was already about playing passively. Playing aggressive in a GM is already a disadvantage because you can just get destroyed in a fraction of a second if you don't take down enemies quick enough. Making that playstyle even worse is just not a good way of changing things up. We've had years of people complaining about being forced to do certain things. Prestige raids requiring specific loadouts to even launch was hated. Champions requiring specific weapons was hated. Even the surges in raids and dungeons which didn't even require you to do anything different was hated. It should be very clear that the community doesn't want to be forced to change playstyle or loadouts. Counterfeit also was just a shitty way to die. We've spent the past 10 years picking up ammo with no thought, and now randomly some of them turn into a cheap way to one shot us.
People calling increased health and damage artificial difficulty is not just a destiny community thing. I've been seeing it said in any game community where the devs use it as a balancing method since i found online games. Also you seem to think most people go "ooooh noooo my one way of playing is gone" when faced with build restrictions but for me (and I presume many people who complain) its because I would make a new build every week or two and more often than not I was forced to throw that build out for every single modifier enabled piece of content because the modifiers just didn't line up. it was never "oh wow this content makes an exciting new build for me" it was "oh this content is what I was doing for the past two weeks and I'm bored of that playstyle and have to just throw out my shiny new toy that i just finished because of it"
I remember people complaining about void hunger and arc hunger and I had the most fun in those gms not only because of the ability spam but because just thinking of different ways to keep the buff active
@@JohnHPV Yep for me. I did some runs of the Moon BG GM on Speaker's Sight pure Solar Warlock, and Ember of Benevolence was enough to completely negate any reduced regen. Meanwhile, when I leaned into the hunger element I had the regen boost.
I wasn’t up to light until Arc Hunger, and never found a gun to use that kept it full the way people talk about. Someone mentioned using LMGs, though I didn’t get to try, but I think it’d be nice to have more information about how Hunger progresses. The 4 or 5 arc weapons I used just did nothing.
An issue i have with Savathuns worm is that it's not balanced for weapon types. One shot from a void auto did the same as a void sniper. Using every shot my sniper can hold wouldn't give me a full bar. I had an issue with the trickster drops because theyd go off instantly because of ice or how they spawned, its one thing to be cautiousup close and another to die instantly because you finished a champion too close to a slight ramp. Most recently with the arms dealer, there's a void suck guy at the end of a grav lift. 80% of my health is gone before I can land. It's stuff like that where I get tired of these kinds of modifiers. And yeah a few of the modifiers were not fun in normal strikes, not because of the difficulty but because it can be annoying when you just want to have fun flying through enemies, leave the very basic strikes alone!
The only thing thats been annoying to me is the damn enemies that leech/tether to you from almost endless range, and they will just pick one person it seems and completely ignores your other teammates even if they are closer to that enemy. It just forces the gameplay to be slowed down and its not fun.
that’s the point... they aggro to one person to break gameplay up so you’re not team killing everything constantly like most GMs. I swear half the time people complain about this type of stuff their complaint is the actual like function of it but you’re saying it without realizing that’s the point. Yeah, you can say well if I’m complaining about something like that it’s bad from the start and it’s like no it’s not. It’s just annoying to you. That doesn’t mean it’s a terrible design decision objectively.
@capital1624 I read past most your word salad gobbidly gook. Its really not that complicated, its a stupid mechanic. Most people do GMs without mics and the fact that an enemy will ignore my teammates that are closer and just keep leeching me is annoying. Thank for enlightening me that my opinion is an opinion keyboard warrior.
The crux of the issue is that most destiny players don’t want to be challenged. They want to be rewarded for playing the game, not for overcoming a challenge.
By standing behind bricks and stuff and dumping mag upon mags until the enemy dies and the run takes 30 minutes to 1 hour?? Thats not challenging, thats boring
Letting the players choose how hard they want something to be and reward them based on that sounds like a no brainer. It's like skulls in Halo, you turn on what you want and then roll, with LASO being the peak.
That kinda removes the change in the way you play because players would choose nothing and just get through it easily its supposed to be endgame content back in destiny 1 you were forced to play a certain way not many people complained about that now they add a certain modifier and the community complains about how hard it is like I saw on reddit where they complained about the counterfeit modifier about how they can't move in time when I had to deal with it I found out how easy it was to get away from it
The Raid is challenging AND FUN because, it forces you to make use of your entire kit. Restricting you from using parts of your kit is terribly cheap to do.
"I was on a consecration titan and didn't mind the deadly ammo bricks" my brother in Christ, consecration titan is the best build in the game bar none right now. No duh you didn't have issues with it. Encouraging static, passive play in a game like Destiny will NEVER be accepted because it isn't as fun, not to mention the ammo bricks are entirely random, so the fact you didn't die getting that close to dying enemies on consecration was honestly pure RNG. Any time a player does everything right in a situation and still dies because of some CoD Last Stand ass mechanic, it's going to be hated.
That one that forced GLs and SMGs sucked because the amount of ammo to get ×3 negative SMG was 1 mag, and the amount of GL ammo to get to ×3 positive SMG was 2+ mags of heavy or 10 breach loaded shots. It felt like you never had ammo and your guns stop dealing damage
@Tempo1337 you must've not played Vanguard Ops week 2 of the episode and experienced it. It DID force you to use certain weapons. Here's the description of the modifier: "Dealing damage with Scout Rifles, Pulse Rifles, and Grenade Launchers gradually reduces their damage while increasing the damage of Submachine Guns and Shotguns, and vice versa. Other weapon types deal significantly less damage." The problem was certain weapons had took only a few bullets to trigger "gradual" effects while others lasted way too long
@@Tempo1337 Bro, the Modifier literally forced you to use weapons because ALL OTHER WEAPON DAMAGE WAS REDUCED.... The actual fuck are you smoking, bro?
17:12 dude, you find them fun because you want to be challenged, the whole point of this franchise is that you go to different places in the game to get the experience you want If I load up Vanguard ops to get a pathfinder done, it asks me to use heavy and all the heavy bricks I find keep blowing me up, I'm not going to keep a shoot to loot weapon on me just for that, because it could conflict with another part of the pathfinder challenges and that's all I'm trying to get done
The Oscillation modifier is genuinely nuts and I don't understand how you are at all defending it. It decreases ALL weapon damage by 50% if it isn't mentioned in the modifier itself! Therefore, you are immediately punished for not using said weapons, and then punished for using the weapons it does tell you to use if you don't swap often enough... In a game largely about build-crafting, literally forcing the players hand to use specific types of weapons has always been a pain, and this modifier elevates said pain to another level
I'm trying Arms Dealer right now and this video made me think if you play into the modifier it'd be fun but it is not tuned right. I ran Outbreak and a Discord shotgun and Outbreak was always decayed, shotgun always buffed. I was doing Syntho/Banner of War Titan and it just was not working. Red bars eating my melee charges and not dying, a worthless primary, and only a limited ammo special actually doing damage? Awful.
As someone who guilds Conqueror seal almost every time, I don't agree that players dislike difficulty, me personally, I liked brick ammo modifier, but I am also a long range warlock, Titan mains I'm friends with hated it, and it makes sense, when any enemy can randomly drop a one shot bomb at their feet and you are a melee centered character it truly would feel like you are being punished for seemingly no sound reason. Just remember Destiny is a sandbox so there's a lot of builds and playstyles that just don't play nice with some of the modifiers Bungie introduces (I literally want to do different builds but its hard to with new modifiers on things, and I'm sure many ppl don't like having to spend what little free time they have buildcrafting every week they just want to hop in with friends). On one side of the coin there's nothing wrong with you liking these modifiers, and on the other side of the coin, there's nothing wrong with other players disliking these modifiers. People will always be resistant to change when it is thrust upon them, if everyone had their cup of coffee in morning changed so that it tastes different, don't be surprised that some people will be vocal about never asking for a different flavor or additive.
Sorry, but counterfeit was just a bad modifier for a number of reasons, most related to visibility and positioning. For example; -Ammo drops could blend in with enemy bodies, even with the slight glow on rigged ammo. -Most problematic is positioning and being killed unfairly by it. By that I mean you could be in a fight and a teammate could kill an enemy that you aren’t focused on and trigger rigged ammo. You could then move backwards or sideways to reposition yourself and step on it and kill yourself, not being your fault since it wasn’t there before. Modifiers like that isn’t adding real difficulty, it just added the potential for cheap and unfair deaths. Using this particular bad modifiers as an example that “players don’t want any form of difficulty” is being disingenuous. People enjoy difficulty, but counterfeit wasn’t “difficult”, it was just cheap and bad mechanically.
7:10. All the stuff you just said are ways bungie controls what we do and how we play. The majority of players don't like that stuff because it forces us to play how bungie wants us to instead of allowing players to play other styles. It bottlenecks players. I for one can't stand any of the stuff they have as a cover up for "difficulty increases". Mechanics can make things difficult while giving player freedom. The first objective is to make content players can beat, but then make it difficult with mechanics and puzzles. Make us think. Slowly slogging through a gm shooting the same enemy a million times doesn't feel good. As we get more powerful, the bosses health or the number of enemies should increase. We don't want bullet sponges, but we don't want instant kills either. Mmos do a good job of this, sometimes it feels good getting in a random group and beating a boss quickly because everyone is geared and knows mechanics, while other runs, you need to teach and be patient. Bungie and Destiny are so close to being the first 1st person mmo. The raids and dungeons are peak. Just adjust some other content with more mechanics and make a worthwhile loot system. It would be competitive with WoW. Content seems to be in a good spot rn, it's the rewards and the reason why to play that is lacking.
Counterfeit was a gimmicky modifier and I think the problem is consistency. If everything has higher health and damage and my ammo drops are more rare and this element burns more, oh and sometimes your ammo drops can kill you. It just doesn’t feel consistent and especially on light blade it felt more like a cheap one shot that was annoying. I think taking surges out would be nice and bringing back burns so certain enemies or elements hurt extra is fine.
Why is everyone just ignoring the fact that Counterfeit doesn't even just apply to ammo bricks? It's not even just that sometimes your ammo drop can kill you, sometimes ANY drop can get you. An Orb of Light (of which I can easily make hundreds of per Activity), any Engram, FUCKING GLIMMER PILES... Literally. Any. Drop.
The main problem, and the thing that has kept me away from the game, is being forced to play in certain ways WITH NO OTHER OPTIONS. Strikes are either piss easy, stupidly hard or flat out annoying. Like if I want to get Nightfall progress then I have to deal with a burn, a beneficial mod, a negative mod and champions. The next step up from that is increased enemy health and damage, equipment locked, no matchmaking, several negative mods and increased difficulty for basically no reason. As for champions, they get hate because it forces the player to switch to weapons they don’t want to use for like two enemies. “In this strike you will face ONE Overload Champion, make sure you adjust your entire build so so you can counter it!” That’s what I’ve personally found annoying with them, but never been enough to make me complain (apart from when the enemies were literally impossible to deal with like Overload teleporting enemies€
I couldnt agree more with this, ive had to do a GM recently in which i had to use certain weapons to deal with the champions but the modifier said the exact weapons i needed for the champions do way less damage the more i use them.... or forcing me to be moving at all time but also making me stand still to scan certain things which then causes me damage.
I think prismatic has helped that "one Champion" issue a lot, but it still exists and yeah - I think that it's very annoying to be forced to use certain equipment too
I feel this I feel like this kind of goes into the game as a whole in content. There are a dozen or so mechanics and elements of the game that pile up to just say "op sorry wrong build kiddo." Like I get encouraging people to try different things but it goes way beyond that. Stop trying to just dictate how I play the game and just let me play. My 2 cents but probably taken to an extreme
The counterfeit problem stems from an already-existing problem. Ammo finder mods are inconsistent. You can run an entire gm with heavy ammo finder and only find 3 bricks. So it's just adding frustration when the ammo you get to drop tries to kill you.
Counterfeit was stupid because I don't need the most braindead replayable activity to have things that slow down the process. Dying to literally every brick despite having 100resil and the proper burn resist was just absurd. Modifiers are fine, and can be neat, hard or not. I just really didn't like the ones they added this season when they made strikes feel like a slog.
my issue with the current state of d2 is adding these modifers to lower end content makes them not worth doing since they dont give out good enough rewards to be worth dealing with any special modifers
"No increasing the damage of enemies, no increasing their health pool, no adjustments. Can't have health gated bosses, can't have immunity phases either. That leaves modifiers". Have you considered the reason people hate all of those is because the way bungie execute them are all shit, include the new modifiers? Counterfeit is a really cool idea, but in game it just suicide bomb if a bunch of adds die next to you. "Just beware of your surrounding", no shit sherlock, I farmed the shit out of Lightblade with counterfeit and the number of time I died to it can be counted on one hand, but that doesn't make it any less of a garbage implementation. Then, instead of adding a deplay arming timer, so the trap mines actually act like mines and not suicide vest, they throw it out of the window all together. "Just frustrated when I feel like Bungie actually does a neat thing or does a good job on something and they get shit on for it", you think that's a good job bungie? We're the one ruined it not how they implement and the way they response to the feedback? Looks like you're so desperate for anything to be difficult you ended up worship whatever filth they put out.
It's like warpriest from d1 to d2 instead of making the fight harder they just gave him more health. They always give bosses more health and stupid immunity phases where the boss can just sit there and deal damage to you while shooting it is pointless and usually when they rework strikes they don't make them longer they just add tedious garbage that shouldn't be added like with lake of shadows where they added the splinter escort the splinter isn't to make the strike harder its to make the strike take longer Edit: even watching the gameplay he has of inverted spire it looks more or less the same as lake of shadows in terms of intentionally add things that don't make the strike harder just make the strike slower
Timers have always felt bad, and will always feel bad to me. Other people are beyond free to love or hate it, and you can give whatever justification you want for why they exist. That will not change that content that involves a timer will inherently be less fun for me. Every piece of content is a matter of if it’s “tolerable” not if it’s fun. There are certain exceptions, like a raid encounter needing you to do something in time to avoid death or a wipe. But if you say “You have 15 minutes to complete this”, I immediately want to fuck off and do anything else. I don’t speak for everyone, but I am confident I’m not the only person who feels this way. Definitely a personality thing on if you like it or not, and no game will ever make it enjoyable for people who fundamentally dislike it
"its not going to stop these builds from destroying everything", yeah its going to give everyone more everything to destroy. People loved that broken week of broken weapons, and people want warframe level power and builds and the miniscreebs thing is EXACTLY what people love, more everything to destroy. I dont have fun when my AutoRifle takes like 4 magazines to kill a dude. I want to have the same amount of 4 magazines be spread out to kill like 10 dudes, and then have these more challenging Banes and Champs and bosses. Like. make your trash mobs so you can one shot headshot with a HC or heavy caliber gun. people like clicking heads. people like mowing through crowds. I havent felt the want to play Destiny since GM Excision dropped.
ive heard health and dmg bumps called artificial difficulty before, and honestly its something i tend to agree with, just shortening TTD usually results in more increase to frustration than difficulty due to it being a blanket solution that can cause unintended side effects (for exaple if everything gets a 35% dmg buff this may not effect small instances of dmg but may tip larger chunks over thresholds to one shot, removing the ability to recover and changing from difficulty to just annoyance) its a big part of why higher difficult content doesnt get engaged with near as much. there a thousands of other things you can do, different enemies, more of them, different placements, map alterations, or even the modifiers theyre playing with, all forms of increasing difficulty without just "SUPRISE! youre dead now, and whatever killed you did so before you could learn anything because the ttd is AS fast as the average reaction time" now on the flip side i do understand that tweaking numeric values is much MUCH easier than setting completely new spawns, enemies, map terrain, etc.
No I'm in fact not okay with banes... Because the only one that's actually difficult and requires attention is the drain bane. All others can very easily be dealt with if they can even actually activate their bane since the enemy is likely dead within a second or two unless a boss wyvern has the bane.
I wish the challenges flashed on screen like the modifiers do, so they'd be more obvious instead of putting them in the left like an objective. I usually listen to music, scary stories, or podcasts while I play. That usually ends in me accidentally ignoring the challenge. And then me feel dum
You need to be hyper aware that playing destiny is literally your job. For the rest of us that dont play video games as a career, video games are a form of escape and exist for the sole purpose of delivering enjoyment. I dont work 6 days a week and raise kids to turn around and clock in for my shift on destiny. I want to have fun and enjoy my experiences. Its absurdly clear that one of bungies last priorities is how much fun players are having. They are very concerned with balances and forced engagement to drive the metrics that matter for them. With all that being said, none of the changes you listed were made to make the game more fun or easier or take less time to complete objectives. Bungie isn't concerned with how I personally want to play the game and they are too willing to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying it. In what reality is that hard to understand. You keep shaking your finger at what sounds like the large majority of players who have been given zero respect or consideration despite being the ones essentially paying for everything..... it's an odd move from you and bungie.
@hiikkachu no sir have no issue with the difficulty. I have 7x gilded conqueror. My point wasn't "the game is too hard" it was "stop shaming people who dont want to commit full time to a game. If people are having fun using a broken super what's the harm?" Datto light flexing on people who dont like shifting metas or nerfs calling them essentially lazy for not wanting to be try hards. I enjoy a challenge when I want a challenge and I enjoy cheese when I want cheese. Both can exist at the same time. Why make people feel bad for liking cheese?
@@hanshotfrst803 no one (except trolls) was saying every part of game, even random patrol, need to be -50 light with champ every second. people was telling they want HARD content to be challenging, with variety, with situations you need to adapt. bungie experiment and do different small steps in that direction, but reddit/twitter cry "they have 14 kids and 8 jobs and no time/skill to do gm because of modifiers, nerf them". game already have different variety of difficulty in activities, but "dads" want best gear with no effort. you can play any random build in any activity except gms, raids and dungeons, and even here you dont need to minmax or have top 1% skill, just some brain and effort. THAT is lazy and shameble. but "dads" make it like "tryhards" want to every inch of game need to be hard, while second speak only and only about several activities.
I think what alot of people are missing in some of these modifiers is that it feels like a mini tutorial with them. Move around or take dmg, think about what things to pick up off the battlefield, target priority, make more than 1 build on a character and so on. Maybe it has been me who stopped playing for awhile to enjoy different things but coming back to thess modifiers are kinda refreshing. New things to consider other than just "Oh what champs and surge? Oh got it, this build with these weapons"
"Artificial difficulty" - I wish Bungie would pull the levers in different directions. More aggressive, more damage, less enemy health, for example. Pulling them all to the top is frustrating.
Bungie: "Players snipe and use scouts too much. Nerf them." Players: *builds into melee builds* Bungie: let's make counterfeit! That way they can't melee things. Players: really?! Datto: It IsNt HaRd PlEb. BuNgIe WaNt YoU tO hAvE fUn
Counterfeit means don’t play melee and something like the modifier for constant movement means don’t play range, just use your brain and play according to the strengths and weaknesses of the situation and modifiers
If you think dealing with modifiers will require a time of a full time job out of you.. maybe way too much skill issue and you should leave the game for good!
It’s an rpg looter shooter, it kinda is meant to have lots of depth and time that can be spent in it. Ever consider that maybe this type of genre just isn’t for you? A game made for everyone is a game made for nobody
@@gamer94339 Datto wipes a GM Nightfall due to exploding ammo brick and it’s just a laugh because he’s still getting paid for streaming it. Meanwhile Working Joe wipes and he’s just wasted a half hour of his limited gaming session with nothing to show for it.
Well you kinda have to optimize to the maximum possible level in the endgame if you don’t have godlike game sense like Datto. And he optimizes the fuck out of this game.
Good points Datto, however you forgot that when YOU play the game you play with your friends who know what they are doing, when I tried to convince my friends to play with me they said this game is either “a malady on the gaming industry” or “a joke of a walking corpse” so I have to PF or Solo queue in which 9/10 times I get paired with two monkeys who facetank ALL the enemy’s bullets and leave me to fight for my life (I die not long after), needless to say my experience is stressful enough and then I trip on a brick, die suddenly and my so called “teammates” quit the match, I love modifiers 😊
"I don't have friends that like the game and I refuse to make them as if LFG discords aren't full of people looking for friends, so the game should have 0 difficulty"
I always find it crazy when datto says people hate this or that, because, i mostly play with my friends, and we are better then the average player, so when i hear these complains, i wonder why do people even play this game for? Idle and shoot enemies like a turret? There are better games for that
Id say that the perception that bungie did x because they hate you is deeply rooted in bungie's long history of artificially prolonged or absurd levels of grind, all kinds of upsetting money issues, and content removal. Its actually hard to articulate sentences to point to every problem destiny has had that makes people angry at bungie, and makes bungie have a stigma of every action they take can feel like there's a bad trade off hidden in there
Before implementing modifiers, they should take care of pathfiding and AI in general. The fucking teleporting just as you shoot, or right behind you as you turn for a split second is just stupid. Not to mention champions that, even though stunned, still manage to kill you. They claim the AI is more aggressive, but I've seen better AI in Counter Strike 1.6.
As someone who mainly plays D2 and creates a living off it, you have the Vanguard Modifier of Content Creator, elitist Datto. You can enjoy this game to its fullest, at any level because you have community, experience, and time in abundance. A large majority of the players of D2 seldom can enjoy the benefits of 1 or 2 of those three points I just mentioned in tandem. So I understand the vent, I truly do. But I also understand the players who complain, who whinge who cry and rant. They'll fight for the D2 experience THEY want on THEIR TERMS just as all of you will in the comments, Reddit etc. Merely an observation, it's not that deep bros.
my problem with counterfeit... why tf are the bricks invisible at times???? I'll be running through an area and see NOTHING on the ground, die, then see i died to counterfeit...
Oscillation also made it so the weapons they forced you to use became weaker over time until they’re flat out useless. That one was awful, the rest of them I can live with.
The main issue me and my fireteam had with the new Inverted Spire GM wasn't the new modifier, but the fact that one of us died in the parkour right before the tanks section and didn't get pulled until we got inside the drill, so probably 50% of the strike.
Hot news: “10 year Destiny Professional Videogamer/streamer/creator is bored, says game too easy & is frustrated by casuals again” The battle continues between casuals asking for fun gameplay & professional gamers demanding for more “challenge” in video game. 😂 smh 🤦 it never ends.
I feel like the adept loot system de incentives playing anything else than a gm so people feel forced to do the hardest difficulty nightfalls because lower difficulties feel like they give no loot
As a therapist maybe I need to start telling my clients that their situational awareness in video games might improve if they practice mindfulness, lol
2:00 It is artificial difficulty. Increasing an enemies HP and damage doesn't change how you deal with it. Once you know how to properly fight the enemy increasing its health and how much damage it does, doesn't change how you effectively fight it. It just affects how long it takes to kill it and decreases the forgiveness for mistakes. Since this is the only way Bungie seems to know how to increase difficulty, that means we've reached the point in high end activities where you frequently get one shot by enemies that can take forever to kill. That turns it into a game of attrition where you slowly whittle enemies health down while having to avoid making any mistakes, because one hit can easily result in instant death (we'll ignore the BS like that Overload Minotaur that teleported behind you). 3:32 The Corrupt has been in the game for ~6 years now and people STILL don't know to pass the damn orbs, so yeah. While more complex mechanics would be nice, it's a fool's hope. 11:28 I'm a dirty plink plonker, I'm move around constantly just like you. Strafing, moving forward and backwards a bit. If you're used to taking advantage of Perpetual Motion, haste is a non-factor.
I'll say initially, you kinda said the main issue with Destiny 2 right at the end, they've run out of design space. Their aging engine can't render enough things on screen to be threatening for the power that players have ascended to, so the best option they have is to resort to 'cheap tricks' instead of actually making the MEAT of the game the engaging part. Playing Darktide has put that into perspective to me. They spawn a raft of tiny little poxwalkers, up to 100 on screen, and unlike in D2, I know if I don't actively deal with them for upwards of 10 seconds of pulse pounding combat, 4+ of them will get a hit off on me and I'll get roasted alive. But, I have the tools to deal with them, be it a melee weapon that cleaves dozens of them dead in a swipe, or a ranged weapon that sends piercing bullets through the crowd. But one of which keeps me vulnerable and 'on the cusp of death but still fighting' (the melee option), the other, has very limited quantity of ammunition, meaning one has to be VERY careful on how they use it so that they aren't dry when the moment truly matters. This makes moment to moment gameplay inherently engaging, something D1 understood with even primary ammo running low at certain points in missions, making stuff like Icebreaker feel like cheating, and quality execution feel impactful and empowering. In D2, you got infinite primary ammo, said primary ammo able to wipe the room in 1-2 shots 90% of the time. This completely removes like, 90% of the dials bungie would normally have to provide difficulty to their players, or rather difficulty that matters/feels good to play with. Spawn a bunch of guys? as you say, they all die just the same as the rest in one clip and the person that did it is probably back to full. Make them sponges so they can tank such hits? Well now that invalidates the whole point of that weapon class, making said weapons worthless and making those that like them incredibly upset. And unlike other games with RPG mechanics like Darktide or Mass Effect or Warframe, they don't have a dedicated armor system. So the game isn't inherently teaching to deal with 'champion light' enemies, like how darktide goes 'hay, there are heavy armor enemies' and you go 'ohh cool, I'll make sure to keep a weapon that can pierce heavy armor on my build, of which there are many to fit my playstyle'. So instead, they need to shoe horn in champions, and instead of making certain weapon types champion busters for the same effect, they rotate them. Meaning players are like 'ohh cool, I want to deal with overloads....but I hate autos (for example), guess Ill die'. This is elevated a bit by them making keywords do it, but what if I want to get my player buff from something other than radiant? get f%cked loser play the game BUNGIE wants you to play. This is already not the best way to handle this, but then they go about doing other unfun things. I'll quickly go through the list you presented, but timers are cheap and bull shit on activities you have no way of engaging with prior to clicking on them. Losing because I'm figuring shit out and having to start over feels terrible, will always feel terrible, and should only be utilized as ways of getting BONUS rewards for excellence, not a requirement for completion. Boosted enemy health just makes shit take longer for no benefit, if the health goes up there needs to be an understandable reason for it (like clicking on a higher difficulty), and even then it needs to be done WELL so people aren't feeling like the gameplay loop just becomes 'stand in spot and hold down trigger until target is dead for twice as long'. That isn't engaging, that's boring. I personally thing your view on mechanics is scewed in your rarified youtuber air, as basically NOBody want's mechanics, for if they did, they'd learn how to pass a f$cking ball in that one strike. Mechanics don't feel great unless they bleed into combat. Shooting the back of a wyvern, good! Having to run onto a random plate to make X enemy actually take damage, garbage! :D Having to interact with the enemy makes the moment to moment actually interactive, and that leads into immunity phases. They are bad, if you need them, you have broken your game. Things should not need to literally be uninterruptible to be a threat, not especially in a combat oriented first person shooter. The thing to deal with an enemy should always be present on them, and allow you to thus, deal with them. Separating that out makes it feel terrible, as now you aren't playing the game, you're playing Professor laton while things you can't interact with are shooting at you. This leaves the enemies themselves, of which, I hope banes are the starting point. Haven't touched the game since the laughable attempt at a dungeon that was Vesper, but from the sounds of it Banes feel like the only real 'actually fun' road they have left to try and make the moment to moment gameplay matter. 'Specialist's', as they are called in Darktide, always keep each run fresh as their spawns can be random, they run around the map, and they actively do very annoying things that you very much don't want them to do. This makes killing them rewarding, and seeking them out to do so feel very nice. The Banes sound like a step in that direction, and I'm all for it, as having various enemies become something that can actually annoy you but not be so 'lock and key' styled like Champs feels like it's 'all they got left' that hasn't been written out of their game due to power creep. I hope that evolves, might make the game actually enjoyable if I return to it. But yeah, at the end of the day the majority are either casual players that cry at difficulty, or combat oriented players (like what used to be me) that want the moment to moment to actually feel engaging and satisfying, and haven't felt that way in years. Enemy density combined with actual balance in the guns and power behind them create this fun, as you have to build your loadout to deal with various forms of interactions, BUT you aren't FORCED (like bungie seems to be leaning toward in your examples of modifiers) in to anything in specific. It's fun to pick and choose what armor piercer a wave clear options I want in Darktide, and what abilities and talents I want to use. I have 12+ builds on 7 different characters (2 of each besides the ogryn) and ALL of them are functional on Darktides highest, most difficult and engaging style of play. When you click on a GM in D2, you are suddenly playing one of 3 builds, have to put on X weapon archtype, and are immediately bored because you are playing the same exact mission with absolutely no changes you did 5 years ago. This is not fun, this is not engaging, and this does not spark joy. And now with stuff like the ammo box modifier or the weapon rotator modifier it sounds like, they are saying 'actually, you have 1-2 builds now, and you have to use an smg'. And in a game all about 'player agency' and choice (at least that's what it used to be), that feels like crap. The game should be encouraging experimentation and creative solutions to problems, not manufacturing problems and forcing one particular solution. Good examples in Darktide yet again, their modifiers are strictly things that increase particular special spawns, or in one rare instance basically make random enemies in a horde 'empowered' (effectively banned) so they can't be staggers and have more health, but glow brightly to indicate their presence. They also have mission modfiers that change up gameplay, stuff like 'this mission now spawns gas on the ground that hurts you, so you should make sure you aren't on it when it does and have certain 'rest locations' that you are designated to hold out in, the poison CAN be pushed through with the right set ups though if you want to', or 'this mission is foggy and spawns more shooter type enemies, so get used to sitting in cover and pointing out what's shooting at you'. All this plays into keeping the runs different and has the player tackle them slightly differently, but all of them let the player still use the build they want, just play it in an augmented way depending on what's available. Bungie needs to understand that when it comes to combat challenge. THAT's what's desired. Make me approach something in a way I haven't thought of before, don't invalidate my syntho melee build YOU put in to the game just because 'everything's a cursed thrall now'. I'm not approaching it differently at that point/the moment to moment hasn't changed, I'm now being told the way I want to play is just blatantly wrong and you should feel bad. And that isn't good design, that's abrasive design. Especially if build crafting is supposed to be a key part of the game (of which basically has fully died at this point, as there's only 2-3 'best builds' per class, and anything else is just different colored explosions).
14:10 I saw that modifier and thought I'd hate it, but oh my gosh I've never had more fun in gms. Granted I couldnt use the loadout I wanted, but the loadout switching and making things like Dmt and Symmetry one shot major legionaries. I cant wait to see what they cook up next.
To be honest the birthplace of the vile gm with brawn was the most fun I’ve ever had with a gm. Promoted smart and aggressive play as well as putting your build through its paces without sacrificing difficulty one mistake could still wipe you but you won’t be shredded in half a second forcing you to play passive from long range.
The only thing i can say is: As a returning player, the recent changes were pretty jarring. Strikes have a level to them asking you to be half way to the max power. Which i found odd. Since in older days i’d just go STRAIGHT to strikes to level up. Felt like i was required to try hard in strikes when under power level. Than it just felt like i was getting memed on when HP won’t regen or ammo blows up. I think modifiers like that belong in night falls or something. Not lil timmy’s 1st strike. People were legit abandoning BASIC STRIKES because they couldn’t stop dying. Which is pitiful but an obvious that things like this do not belong in ‘easy’ activities. And as for mechanics. Bruh that ‘taken techian witch’ strike has been out for EONS and people still don’t know to pass the ball. Mechanics & difficulty modifiers don’t belong in super basic content. Now night falls or GM. Hell yeah go for it! Bring it on! I’ll never in my life touch GM content. Go nuts bungie.
My main thought on this for a while is that people believe that GMs are supposed to be farmable, and any modifier that interferes with that is disliked. I think that if bungie wants to have a real hard-mode strike setting, it needs to have set rewards (aka non-farmable), and they could probably put all the difficulty on it that they want.
destiny players literally just want to pull the glorified slot machine for random loot they will never use, i swear most players actively don't want to engage with the games mechanics and just mindlessly shoot things to get loot, people don't like crafting in the game because it removes the fluff from the game and all that's left is the actual gameplay, which they clearly don't enjoy otherwise the community wouldn't cry about the slightest increase in challenge. I hate to be the "oh destiny 1 was better" cause i think the game was lowkey dogshit, but at least in d1 if you wanted to hit max power and get the best loot in the game you had to earn it, instead of just mindlessly running onslaught or some shit
I really liked the ammo bricks blowing up. Hated it at first but then changed my play a little bit and learned to like it. I also like the new vesper boss phase, it’s nice to actually move around and it’s just chaos instead of just stand here and shoot
Thank you, Elitist Datto, for being the voice of reason for the intelligent portion of the playerbase. The perpetual pissing and moaning that literally ANY form of challenge is "artificial difficulty" is legitimately the definition of smoothbrain. I can't wait for the challenge meter system coming next year, and I ABSOLUTELY hope that loot drops are substantially swayed by higher difficulty. That way, your "waaaaa Grounded is too difficult, waaaaaaa I have to take off my Mountaintop/Recluse"-looking selves can get exactly one badly rolled Lunulata for your minimum effort.
datto is not the voice for the intelligent portion of the playerbase he is out of touch, forgetting that this is literally his job where he has nigh on endless time to pursue this game meanwhile how much do you want to bet the people complaining are those that, most of the time, do not? they come to this for entertainment, FUN? these modifiers, and how they get implemented, are not conducive to fun. especially when its more of being told by bungie "you play how we want you to play, not how YOU want to play, despite buildcrafting being important"
Destiny: the community that wants more combat difficulty but also still can't charge the ball in the corrupted 9 years later
the amount of times Ive explained the mechanic just for people to still not do it is insane. I've actually just started intercepting people's throws whenever possible to charge the ball
@@fettuccine148 Same here
YES
Because console players are terrible at basically anything but fighting games.
@@AishiUA-cam It's not about the platform you play the game from. Lots of PC players make me wonder if they can count to three.
Tomb of elders: get special or heavy ammo kills or kills with abilities
People I queue with: let me keep shooting my auto rifle. “Why did we not get the extra loot, you suck”
The best part is you get an ammo resupply for completing the objective. You're not at all penalized for swapping to your heavy or special and slaying out for a minute.
the most useless part of those objectif is precision kill, the enemy dies so fast you dont even need to focus on headshot
I got poor eyesight, where are the extra objectives located? promise I'll do better if I have that info
To be fair, I still thing the notifications are too small for things like the additional challenges of elders. A lot of the time I don't even notice it for like 10 seconds.
@@alphtheor.879 left hand side. they still aren't super noticable right away.
My problem with champions is how they will very clearly stun, the message pops up, and the sound happens, but the champion continues to move and shoot you for several seconds before they finally stun, usually resulting in your death. Extremely annoying and unfun
Good old peer to peer connections
Sometimes, stasis screws with the stun mechanic
Connection issues. Their HP bar also jumps back and forth sometimes, making me miss my Aeon finishers.
I do recall experiencing this
Based pfp
At this point, I've figured that this game is always going to be some fight between casuals, new hardcore and veteran hardcore players. It'll never end.
As a veteran (dark below), I’ll never get why people don’t just do what they want. If i don’t like an expansion, i simply dont buy it and continue to play without them. I think it’s cool to be rank 6 and still shitting on nearly every activity even though i am not up to date. I didn’t like the new modifiers at first, still not too big on them. If i dont like the gm modifier i just dont play it who cares
@@DirePromiseHighCalguardian rank do not matter most people that i play with 5,6 and 7 rarely above that
@DirePromiseHighCal its because veterans have fucked the casual experience too many times. Master work cores for infisions & sunsetting are great examples.
I now never respect veterans of this game and their opinions.
@@grayterminal232 yeah and the game is more convoluted than anything now because of it. They should have kept things simple like D1 and nailed it, they just kept adding shit
@@grayterminal232 dude if you put the playlist enhancement core mod on your ghost and go do 1 (one) strike (maybe 5-10 minutes of time) you get like 1-3 cores. I can't believe people complain about not having resources when you are literally showered with them if you just play the game more than once a week
Hot take: just making health bars bigger, and enemy damage higher can work, but to a point. If you're at the point where the only way you can play is hiding around a corner and pumping 10 magazines into an enemy and ducking back when one attack nearly kills you, that's not fun or engaging.
I didn't download Destiny 2 to play a cover shooter, i wanted to play a game where i'm a magical sci-fi super soldier, and there's way better ways to make that difficult and engaging, with more skill expression.
At the same time, asking for the only difficulty increase to come from a dozen more enemies you kill with one shot or one grenade anyways isn't going to be effective.
true, legend campaign is the best example of perfect difficulty scaling in destiny imo
@@jhustmyles275 Wdym isn't going to be effective, you just described Doom and that franchise is a massive success! Yeah, if they fold to a lick (especially every single time), it'll most definitely be bad, but there's a need for balance that I think D2 doesn't really succeed at unless you're in low difficulties where nothing is a threat.
What I mean is, the player even at the hardest difficulties needs to be given the opportunity to feel like THEY'RE the BOSS from time to time, and currently D2 at the hardest difficulties is ALWAYS the opposite unless you're using a cheesy burst strat that is bound to be nerfed (and even then, you don't really feel like THE GUARDIAN, just one of the many other guardians). In that aspect, I feel like Destiny has failed. Idk what they could do to fix it, if it's even fixable, just something I noticed that made me stop playing PvE in favor of PvP where I can feel like THE Guardian through raw skill when I dominate lobbies die to the hours I've dedicted to being good at games lol. Eventually, I just stopped playing. Other games reward my effort more than some shiny loot that's supposed to indicate I "did good." Especially for the solo players, it's horrible - I grew tired of sitting 5k miles away because it's the most optimal.
@@RemedieXYou can play aggressively and feel special if that’s what you want, it just takes a build designed to do so like consecration titan. You need risk in doing something, you can’t just have endgame content feel like you’re flattening it.
@@jhustmyles275 Trying to counter one extreme by pointing out the opposite extreme is not a valid counter argument.
I think situational awareness in general both in real life and video games is just so absurdly low that this is what we get as a result.
Underrated comment. Totally agree, and as you know, it’s only getting worse.
Yup same thing as “common sense isn’t as common as you’d think”
You’re not kidding. True story: last night I was waiting at a stop light to make a left-hand turn (in a left-turn only lane). A car had stalled out at the front of one of the two “going straight” lanes, next to my car. That stalled car had clearly indicated it was disabled, by turning on its “hazard” blinking tail lights. When the traffic light changed to green, the ENTIRE LANE of cars behind the disabled vehicle just sat there and didn’t move, even though there was another empty lane available to go-around the stalled car. Why, you might ask? ALL of the drivers in the cars behind the stalled car had their heads and attention locked downward on their phone screens. I sat there laughing, as a dozen cars just sat there unmoving throughout a full two-minute green light cycle.
Situational awareness is severely lacking in modern society. It’s really bad.
@@BahamutBreakerit’s just sad honestly these people care more about their phones than the real world and their safety and everyone else’s while driving.
Yeah just look at our most recent election for example.
the hatred of any and all difficulty is a direct result of the game being designed around loot and grinding. Destiny players view the game as a chore to be done to get their prize, not an experience that has value in and of itself.
That’s because, and I’ll let you in on a secret here, it doesn’t.
This is why I don't enjoy playing the game very much anymore. It's a looter shooter, yes, but the main gameplay loop is designed to be the *pursuit* of the loot rather than actually playing with it. Anytime they try to make the "playing with loot" part more interesting, the community forces them to undo it. So we just end up with a bunch of content in the game that offers little resistance and too few opportunities to think about our loot in an interesting way.
It's the reason why the community's proposed universal solution to everything is to just make it easier to get loot. Strikes are boring? Incentivize people with loot. Raiding is hard to get into? Incentivize people with loot. PvP sucks? Incentivize people with loot.
I have enough loot to play with and I barely play the game anymore. What I don't have is content that makes me think about the game in novel ways. Pursuit for the sake of the pursuit just leaves you feeling empty when you've reached the end.
You cant make overly difficult content and then force people to run it dozens of times for a particular thing. Outside of Raids and Dungeons, the experience trying to achieve loot is extremely monotonous and boring.
The looter aspect of the game is nothing more than an excuse for the devs to spend less time making new content to retain players by just forcing you to replay the same stuff repeatedly for shiny new toys. You either play for the loot or you play for the content, the only people who play for the loot chase itself are addict gamblers.
This is the most true thing I have ever read about this game and it's not even close
If it’s starting to feel like a chore then take a break. There are a million games out there including free to play which r similar to destiny. There’s nothing wrong with taking a break from a game you love and honestly I think it should be encouraged cause then you kind of have a new found respect for it when u get back to playing it again
I think this video captures the essential problem: there are many different ways to modify difficulty, and the community hating all of them actually means subsets of the community dislike different methods, because they prefer to play the game in a certain way. The solution? A Supergiant Games-style heat system where you can customize difficulty modifiers for increased rewards, choosing which types of difficulty you're most comfortable with. That way, those of us who like gameplay-style difficulty modifiers like counterfeit and grounded can lean into our FPS skills, and build crafting experts can lean into difficulty options that are all about efficiency and maximizing your build potential.
And I think Bungie recognized this too, which is why they talked about how they're introducing a system like Hades Pact of Punishment...next year? I forget when exactly.
I support Hades pact of punishment.
We could put Shaxx in charge of it like in Into the Light; he’s all about training Guardians. Like instead of the pact of punishment he gives you the scroll of challenges (or whatever): the more modifiers you activate the better the rewards, possibly shiny weapons, and he could give bounties like “do 3 strike with x modifier” or “combine modifiers x and y” and such for reputation so that in the end, you have at least one good weapon/shiny for sure.
Which isn’t even a brand new concept, that’s how you would get your multiplier for nightfall a while ago, I agree, would be an easy solution
Watch people complain that they need to activate modifier to get the best loot with the next expansion
we had that. people complained. it got changed.
Datto neglected to mention that counterfeit was paired with famine during Light Blade. So you were starve of ammo and when it did drop you got a bomb instead.
boo hoo be smarter
@aspserpent dang what a well crafted response. Your last point was especially poignant, read like a doctoral thesis. So do you charge for the clinics you put on or is that a write off for charity?
Yeah that's why the modifier was funny and good.
@@iponce2 me when im a pretentious dickhead who thinks overcommitting to sarcasm makes me funny
Yes. That was the point.
The problem with these modifiers is that they're just annoying enough you're aware of them but not enough to really matter. It's like a fly buzzing around your ear. It's doing you know harm but it's annoying as shit to have to deal with, and we are 10 year deep in Destiny. Things that annoy the players that are already barely hanging on aren't advisable at the moment.
NO MODIFIERS. ONLY MINI SCREEBS. BRING BACK MINI SCREEBS!!!
UNLEASHE THE CRITERS
Friendly fire
BRING BACK MINI SCREEBS AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!!!
John Screeba!
facts
Destiny players when purposefully difficult content is purposefully difficult
This community has the most hate for their own game that I've seen. And I play League of Legends. Destiny players just don't want to play the game at all. Because they don't like it as much as they think they do anymore. Grown adults logging in every day, not enjoying themselves at all, and they can't figure out why? I'm sorry, did your emotional development stop when you were in high school? Jesus.
@@moopey1837 I honestly believe most Destiny players need to take a break from the game. Like a totally complete break. No logging on for whatever. No keeping up with news and updates. Just uninstall and play the millions of other games in your backlog that is collecting dust because you shouldn't be playing a game that you don't enjoy.
@@Lamonticusaddiction. And I say that as a the player described. My brothers always ask me why I never moved on. I’m an adult and I get very little time to play and it’s the only thing I can jump into and not have to commit hours or develop a complete understanding of new systems etc.
@@Kcq11 you do realize that is somewhat self imposed tho right? also like isnt half the fun of a game learning the new systems and gaining an understanding of them? like i get if you only have a little bit of time to play the game but honestly if that is the case why should bungie cater the entire experience to people who can only play for 2 hours a week and just want to do vanguard ops?
@@Kcq11 I get ya, man. I was addicted to Destiny 2 myself. I love the game but I hit a point where my enjoyment of the game was eclipsed by my frustration with certain systems within the game. So I decided to take a break during Season the Witch and man was that the most free I've been for some time. I played a shit ton of BG3. I guarantee that taking a break and finding something else to play (please not another live service game) or something else to do will be better than playing a game that you only play because you have to.
If you need a mindless game to turn you brain off to for after work that doesn't require a lot of commitment or super deep understanding of systems, try Vampire Survivors if you haven't.
My spicy take on difficulty is that the game does very little to ratchet up difficulty in a way that teaches the player to engage with more complex mechanics and more advanced dps strategies. You can run Nightfalls like a champ and everything you've learned up to that point does little to prepare you for a Dungeon or Raid. Simply popping your super and unloading your heavy weapon will flatten a strike boss but do very little to a dungeon boss. Exotic Missions have bridged the gap a little, but more opportunities to do complex mechanics without being in constant danger or to experiment with DPS rotations in a training room environment would be a huge boon to players seeking to elevate their own gameplay.
I don't think this is a hot take at all. I think Bungie should bring in something to bridge the gap a little bit, something between strikes and dungeons like you said. Bringing in a training room where you can test things would be amazing. Maybe the ability to spawn in champions, or even a specific dungeon/raid boss as a way to practice would be really cool.
God it would be crazy if we already did have a testing room that got sunset for some reason.
We did have that room, it was called the Tribute Hall, added Season of Opulence. It was kinda moot by Arrivals because the highest hp enemy was an Orge. Making dps testing impossible because it would just die. It did exist though.
The destiny community is undefeated at being braindead. The same ones that post on reddit and yt comments are the same ones that beat their heads against the wall til it bleeds, then complain that bungie made the wall too hard. You have the tools, you have a million guides and videos to hold your hand even tighter. The problem is the entitlement
It’s not up to the game to teach you those things, use some critical thinking and find out stuff on your own for a change, that’s how you get good at the game.
I think the issue is Bungie pushed modifiers into all parts of the game, where it should only be for the tougher content. People aren't looking for a challenge in the Vanguard Ops playlist, the single round of Tomb of the Elders, or the only 10 rounds of Onslaught. Those are podcast/music on, brain off modes. And no, those aren't "get good" modes
I saw people complaining about it most for GMs, which is the issue. People want their "hard" content to be as easy as possible and anything that makes them change how they play is branded as "restricting"
"people aren't looking for a challenge in the vanguard ops playlist" WHY
You should always get good, if you want brain dead content go on patrol.
The issue is bungie listened too much to everyone. The community has gone a total ego trip for a fucking decade screaming a crying about how the game should or shouldn’t be. Why tf do you want brain dead content in an fps at all? If you don’t wanna think go play stardew valley. Go play bloons td 6.
@@TheSket beacuse... people like fps game but don't want to think or stress after a long day? this is a very weird point you're trying to make lmao
2:00 You say that only the D2 community considers enemies with more HP & DMG to be artificial difficulty. Most gamming communities I've seen consider that to be artificial difficulty as it doesn't make things harder it just makes things more punishing. An enemy going from 100hp to 500hp only makes them take longer to kill and adds no extra challenge. People have complained about this in many games (especially Bethesda ones).
As for the ai, changing it's accuracy and how often they attack doesn't actually affect the ai at all. The ai and how it behaves it still exactly the same, just now it has increased firerate and accuracy stats. The ai doesn't react in new ways like try to flank you, co-ordinate with one another, dive in and out of cover or even try to avoid incoming grenades.
Agree with the AI stuff. Wasn't it Halo: CE where if you stayed behind cover for too long grunts would become suicide bombers?
I can imagine the impending freakout coming from players in regards to avoiding thrown grenades because "now their grenade build is useless" or something. It's fun to wipe out a whole wave of enemies with one grenade, but that shouldn't work against anything other than thrall.
@@Collin_JWyverns are literally a thing. Vex shock troops *designed* to flush you out of cover and into the open.
@Collin_J grunts in halo would more often do that when the elites died
If something as simple as counterfeit received this much pushback I dont forsee any remotely challenging modifier mechanics lasting long in destiny
Dont forget the ball mechanic from Corrupted flying over 90% of blueberries' heads
big difference between hard and annoying. counterfeit goes into the first category :/
@@mikael100100 Literally ANY form of difficulty is inherently more annoying to anyone who doesn't already enjoy that form of difficulty. And you are not gonna find a single form of difficulty that everyone finds fun.
@@mikael100100 It requires a microsecond of staring at a brick and not picking up every yellow engram you saw, I cannot or honestly more accurately I simply refuse to believe it was so annoying it stopped you from doing anything.
Destiny players when they have to play the game: why do I have to play the game? bungie please nerf this
@@josh___something ... okay, very good point.
Basic reading and comprehension!? What am I a Warlock?!
- My fireteam including me. I am a Warlock
true as a titan i leave all that nerd shit to you
The minute I heard Counterfeit I thought, "Oh, shoot to loot is going to be useful here!" Yet apparently shooting an ammo brick is too difficult.
I had the same thought. Oh man my shoot to loot gun has an extra use this week. So many players are cowards at new play styles
@@DespressoEspresso43so you just bend over and let Bungie go deep in? Gotcha.
@@DespressoEspresso43 but why? shoot to loot adds nothing you can't collect those fake ammo drops, the only good perk would be explosive payload to get multiple at a time and it's more forgiving but it's already pretty meta.
@DespressoEspresso43 if you play a melee build you jus die
@@SlongestKongest novel concept, don't play a melee build!
My biggest problem with difficulty in destiny is just how much it really restricts build variety (especially now that there are so many possible builds ). It gets to the point where 75% of your exotics are worthless, half the supers are too high risk/low reward, and even close range/aggressive builds can’t be used because of the sheer amount of incoming damage.
"Play the game YOUR way, BUT NOT LIKE THAT, ONLY IN THESE VERY SPECIFIC WAYS."
The most common build I've seen used is HOIL Syntho consecration titans just deleting rooms.... if anything long range builds are basically a non-factor in the current sandbox
@@21o36 This still proves their point. You get one, maybe two, meta builds to even clear some content reasonably. It being a melee titan doesn't really change anything
I think counterfeit would have been more liked if we weren’t introduced to it with Lightblade and arc threat
And aldready reduced ammo drops
Counterfeit may be annoying but it also makes for some hilarious moments
If your with friends sure not when playing with blueberries
Sure, but further decreasing clarity of what is happening in the Funny Explosion Particles Everywhere is a choice.
Honestly thought it would be worse than it was when I heard about it but in practice I just brought Khvostov with shoot to loot and just played more careful when it came to picking up ammo
when my teammate spontaneously combusts next to me
Pretty much. It was a big WTF moment the first time I got killed by one. I think that it can work well at times but its a little too rough in some add dense areas where you end up with a ton of things that can explode while you're dealing with 20ish mobs in a smaller area.
Big thing with methods to increase difficulty, on increasing hp/damage of enemies and putting in time limits is that you can overdo those things. If you overdo those things, you pretty much pigeonhole people into having to do dps builds. A lot of devs tend to get those mechanics wrong so people generally tend to not like them in general.
The problem with immunity phases is that it doesn’t escalate any difficulty or create a challenge; it just makes you repeat your gameplay and extends the time it takes to accomplish the task. It doesn’t change or alter anything-just lengthens the time it takes to complete it.
But the problem isn’t actually from the immunity phase itself. Endurance fights can be fun and engaging, the issue is that during immunity phases the difficulty doesn’t add up. What should be happening for boss fights with immunity phases is that the volume, and difficulty of ads should get higher. Start with red bars, after 1st immunity throw in yellow bars and wyverns, after 2nd immunity throw in champs. Something like that.
Its really only when there are like tons of immunity phases that it gets silly. There should be like two or three max, first time to show you know the mechanic and second time to show you didnt just get lucky.
@@marcvsaurelius7570good job you describe like 60% to 70%(if not more) of every immune phase this game has
my main gripe is difficulty spikes w/o tutorials. Sure HAVE hard content. But if the only way to overcome is to watch an hour of buildcrafting videos and it's NOT a raid, I'm upset
There's a difference between annoying, and difficult. Increased enemy health? Difficult. Take damage when not moving? Annoying. More enemy density? Difficulty. Exploding ammo AND FUCKING ENGRAMS. ANNOYING
Another note: making some weapons or elements stronger is fine. But weakening some sucks. Don't try and force people to use weapons they don't like
Anytime I see the Haste modifier I think of the “keep moving” attacks from Rabbit and Steel lol
Oh hey Phil, glad to see you here!
@@lukelaws3545howdy 🤠
I think most of the problem with most of the current modifiers isn’t the modifiers themselves it’s the environment they’re expected to live in.. if the stated objective of Counterfeit is as you said “stay out of melee range and don’t use finishers or you have a 25% chance of dying” then this should not be in the game while we ONLY have Anti-Barrier Shotgun and two artifact mods that shield and produce AoE on Finishers.
Banes, all good, fantastic idea, except and because Banes never announce themselves like Champions do you’re not sure if it’s a Drain Bane while you’re on Brawn (eek!) or not until you’re looking at your own corpse. Half the mechanics are “break line of sight” but you need to make line of sight to see the health bar to identify which Bane it is if you do get lucky enough to see them coming.
We all know the changes coming in Frontiers though, there are going to be like Nightfall cards again, so you can ramp up score with challenges and extra modifiers, and we are just playing beta tester for a bunch of ideas that are eventually going to be mostly chosen like Skulls in Halo for the hardcore gamers. That’s a frustrating environment to play in if you’re not a Datto or an Aztecross because you’re being pushed out of content for 6 months while everything’s flakey, inconsistent, Really Unfair Combination This Week, and so on.
One thing a lot of the streaming/youtube community seems to be out of touch with is the time commitments they can afford to make since they are being paid to play the game, makes the opinions a little too strongly out of touch with average players who don't have 6+ hours, hell even 2+ hours a day to dedicate to a game, not to mention variety game players wanting to play different games.
@ absolutely agree. I don’t want to organize doing Conqueror with my clanmates and then find out the modifiers are absolutely heinous that week. Same as why rotating burns on dungeons was a bad idea. It just makes the game suck for weeks on end. We don’t have every exotic, we don’t have time to grind the perfect god roll weapon.
@@PrejudicePain lol no, even when I play this a couple hours every week I can still do gms with counterfeits.
maybe if you don't play the game enough to be in some of the hardest content in the game, you shouldn't play the hardest content in the game.
get good LMAO
@@noritsukenji I guild conqueror seal everytime it becomes available man, I just don't like how much time I have to spend in orbit switching things around instead of in the Nightfalls actually playing.
@@noritsukenjiand this is why people don’t take yall seriously because yall double down at beating an ass because you have no lives or play the game as a job.
"modifiers" and "timers" are the laziest possible ways to offer a challenge. Bungie gotta do better than that.
Proving the point of the video. What do you propose if they can’t do modifiers, timers, or base stat increases to enemies as they all are viewed as lazy to you. How do you add difficulty?
@@marshmallofluff Timers are definitely just lazy, modifiers *maybe*, and extra health/damage BY ITSELF is also pretty bad design in most games. There's plenty of interactive mechanics that you can add to boss fights. That's the point the community is making. In terms of standard enemies, I think destiny has a great example of increased difficulty with champions. They pose a legitimate threat, have interactive mechanics that also require build consideration, and for the most part require good positioning and coordination from your team to take care of effectively. Adding a new variant of champion would be interesting. Only increasing the health of them doesn't change anything about the fight, you just have to repeat the process again.
I liked how Counterfeit made me bust out my Explosive Payload + Shoot to Loot scout for that Lightblade GM, it's really cool when your niche rolls that "Might be good later" actually do get a use case and aren't just there to take up a vault space because it might get useful. I get that it was annoying when god decided that ONE thrall that got close to you was also gonna have a fake exotic engram to blow up in your face, but you also got 10+ rez tokens, it's fine, deal with it ya babies, and bust out your cool niche rolls. A loadout full of Autoloding Holster + Harmony weapons would go hard in that modifier that makes you swap your guns all the time, that sounds fun as hell. Turns out you CAN buildcraft your way into these modifiers.
What do you mean "increased health and damage is referred to _pretty much only in this community_ as artificial difficulty?" That's how the phrase is used in every video game community that I've seen except *Mario Kart.* Artificial difficulty was NOT invented by the Destiny community, and it's pretty universally disliked from what I've seen.
Yeah idk what he was on about there lmao. This video just screams whiney to me
I don't think counterfeit was a good modifier. All it did was require people to play super passively in content that was already about playing passively. Playing aggressive in a GM is already a disadvantage because you can just get destroyed in a fraction of a second if you don't take down enemies quick enough. Making that playstyle even worse is just not a good way of changing things up. We've had years of people complaining about being forced to do certain things. Prestige raids requiring specific loadouts to even launch was hated. Champions requiring specific weapons was hated. Even the surges in raids and dungeons which didn't even require you to do anything different was hated. It should be very clear that the community doesn't want to be forced to change playstyle or loadouts. Counterfeit also was just a shitty way to die. We've spent the past 10 years picking up ammo with no thought, and now randomly some of them turn into a cheap way to one shot us.
I play agresive on my strand hunter all the time. Just because YOU don't play agresive doesn't mean it suck s.
People calling increased health and damage artificial difficulty is not just a destiny community thing. I've been seeing it said in any game community where the devs use it as a balancing method since i found online games.
Also you seem to think most people go "ooooh noooo my one way of playing is gone" when faced with build restrictions but for me (and I presume many people who complain) its because I would make a new build every week or two and more often than not I was forced to throw that build out for every single modifier enabled piece of content because the modifiers just didn't line up. it was never "oh wow this content makes an exciting new build for me" it was "oh this content is what I was doing for the past two weeks and I'm bored of that playstyle and have to just throw out my shiny new toy that i just finished because of it"
I remember people complaining about void hunger and arc hunger and I had the most fun in those gms not only because of the ability spam but because just thinking of different ways to keep the buff active
Meanwhile I was brute forcing my way through a gm with less regen cuz I'm stubborn 😅
@@ghostraz6868 and most likely you were totally fine doing the gm
@@JohnHPV Yep for me. I did some runs of the Moon BG GM on Speaker's Sight pure Solar Warlock, and Ember of Benevolence was enough to completely negate any reduced regen. Meanwhile, when I leaned into the hunger element I had the regen boost.
i didn’t even try to use the arc hunger. I wanted a challenge.
I wasn’t up to light until Arc Hunger, and never found a gun to use that kept it full the way people talk about. Someone mentioned using LMGs, though I didn’t get to try, but I think it’d be nice to have more information about how Hunger progresses. The 4 or 5 arc weapons I used just did nothing.
Bring back the nightfall card where you select the modifiers and they have score bonuses. Then make score scale your loot with no cap.
An issue i have with Savathuns worm is that it's not balanced for weapon types. One shot from a void auto did the same as a void sniper. Using every shot my sniper can hold wouldn't give me a full bar. I had an issue with the trickster drops because theyd go off instantly because of ice or how they spawned, its one thing to be cautiousup close and another to die instantly because you finished a champion too close to a slight ramp. Most recently with the arms dealer, there's a void suck guy at the end of a grav lift. 80% of my health is gone before I can land. It's stuff like that where I get tired of these kinds of modifiers. And yeah a few of the modifiers were not fun in normal strikes, not because of the difficulty but because it can be annoying when you just want to have fun flying through enemies, leave the very basic strikes alone!
I never notice this modifier working i didnt even knew what it did and i have gilded my conq title and did multiple gm
The only thing thats been annoying to me is the damn enemies that leech/tether to you from almost endless range, and they will just pick one person it seems and completely ignores your other teammates even if they are closer to that enemy. It just forces the gameplay to be slowed down and its not fun.
that’s the point... they aggro to one person to break gameplay up so you’re not team killing everything constantly like most GMs. I swear half the time people complain about this type of stuff their complaint is the actual like function of it but you’re saying it without realizing that’s the point. Yeah, you can say well if I’m complaining about something like that it’s bad from the start and it’s like no it’s not. It’s just annoying to you. That doesn’t mean it’s a terrible design decision objectively.
@capital1624 I read past most your word salad gobbidly gook. Its really not that complicated, its a stupid mechanic. Most people do GMs without mics and the fact that an enemy will ignore my teammates that are closer and just keep leeching me is annoying. Thank for enlightening me that my opinion is an opinion keyboard warrior.
The crux of the issue is that most destiny players don’t want to be challenged. They want to be rewarded for playing the game, not for overcoming a challenge.
By standing behind bricks and stuff and dumping mag upon mags until the enemy dies and the run takes 30 minutes to 1 hour?? Thats not challenging, thats boring
@@LeMajesticJamesthen what type of challenge would you want?
Letting the players choose how hard they want something to be and reward them based on that sounds like a no brainer. It's like skulls in Halo, you turn on what you want and then roll, with LASO being the peak.
That kinda removes the change in the way you play because players would choose nothing and just get through it easily its supposed to be endgame content back in destiny 1 you were forced to play a certain way not many people complained about that now they add a certain modifier and the community complains about how hard it is like I saw on reddit where they complained about the counterfeit modifier about how they can't move in time when I had to deal with it I found out how easy it was to get away from it
Isn't that how it is now? Most activities have difficulty tiers with the rewards being tied to the difficulty
@@Kostyahellstorm_IronLord What are you even trying to say
The Raid is challenging AND FUN because, it forces you to make use of your entire kit. Restricting you from using parts of your kit is terribly cheap to do.
"I was on a consecration titan and didn't mind the deadly ammo bricks" my brother in Christ, consecration titan is the best build in the game bar none right now. No duh you didn't have issues with it. Encouraging static, passive play in a game like Destiny will NEVER be accepted because it isn't as fun, not to mention the ammo bricks are entirely random, so the fact you didn't die getting that close to dying enemies on consecration was honestly pure RNG. Any time a player does everything right in a situation and still dies because of some CoD Last Stand ass mechanic, it's going to be hated.
That one that forced GLs and SMGs sucked because the amount of ammo to get ×3 negative SMG was 1 mag, and the amount of GL ammo to get to ×3 positive SMG was 2+ mags of heavy or 10 breach loaded shots. It felt like you never had ammo and your guns stop dealing damage
Nothing "forces" anything. You don't have to abide by every single Surge and Champs have so many means of stunning outside of weapons.
@Tempo1337 you must've not played Vanguard Ops week 2 of the episode and experienced it. It DID force you to use certain weapons. Here's the description of the modifier: "Dealing damage with Scout Rifles, Pulse Rifles, and Grenade Launchers gradually reduces their damage while increasing the damage of Submachine Guns and Shotguns, and vice versa.
Other weapon types deal significantly less damage."
The problem was certain weapons had took only a few bullets to trigger "gradual" effects while others lasted way too long
@@jrockz133t incorrect
@@jrockz133t i didnt even notice a difference and i was running handcanon and icebreaker
@@Tempo1337 Bro, the Modifier literally forced you to use weapons because ALL OTHER WEAPON DAMAGE WAS REDUCED.... The actual fuck are you smoking, bro?
17:12 dude, you find them fun because you want to be challenged, the whole point of this franchise is that you go to different places in the game to get the experience you want
If I load up Vanguard ops to get a pathfinder done, it asks me to use heavy and all the heavy bricks I find keep blowing me up, I'm not going to keep a shoot to loot weapon on me just for that, because it could conflict with another part of the pathfinder challenges and that's all I'm trying to get done
Then don’t get anything done, if you are babied so much you cant use a single perk to get a quick challenge done then you bought the wrong game.
@@sea509 it's almost like being forced to use anything isn't a good thing in a game where build crafting is supposed to be the entire point
tl;dw: elitist datto commits goomba fallacy for 20 minutes
Goomba fallacy? 😂 What is that lmao
The Oscillation modifier is genuinely nuts and I don't understand how you are at all defending it. It decreases ALL weapon damage by 50% if it isn't mentioned in the modifier itself! Therefore, you are immediately punished for not using said weapons, and then punished for using the weapons it does tell you to use if you don't swap often enough... In a game largely about build-crafting, literally forcing the players hand to use specific types of weapons has always been a pain, and this modifier elevates said pain to another level
I'm trying Arms Dealer right now and this video made me think if you play into the modifier it'd be fun but it is not tuned right. I ran Outbreak and a Discord shotgun and Outbreak was always decayed, shotgun always buffed. I was doing Syntho/Banner of War Titan and it just was not working. Red bars eating my melee charges and not dying, a worthless primary, and only a limited ammo special actually doing damage? Awful.
and they slapped that onto Liminality? ugh.
I will scream this from the rooftops: bring back mini screebs you cowards
As someone who guilds Conqueror seal almost every time, I don't agree that players dislike difficulty, me personally, I liked brick ammo modifier, but I am also a long range warlock, Titan mains I'm friends with hated it, and it makes sense, when any enemy can randomly drop a one shot bomb at their feet and you are a melee centered character it truly would feel like you are being punished for seemingly no sound reason. Just remember Destiny is a sandbox so there's a lot of builds and playstyles that just don't play nice with some of the modifiers Bungie introduces (I literally want to do different builds but its hard to with new modifiers on things, and I'm sure many ppl don't like having to spend what little free time they have buildcrafting every week they just want to hop in with friends). On one side of the coin there's nothing wrong with you liking these modifiers, and on the other side of the coin, there's nothing wrong with other players disliking these modifiers. People will always be resistant to change when it is thrust upon them, if everyone had their cup of coffee in morning changed so that it tastes different, don't be surprised that some people will be vocal about never asking for a different flavor or additive.
Sorry, but counterfeit was just a bad modifier for a number of reasons, most related to visibility and positioning. For example;
-Ammo drops could blend in with enemy bodies, even with the slight glow on rigged ammo.
-Most problematic is positioning and being killed unfairly by it. By that I mean you could be in a fight and a teammate could kill an enemy that you aren’t focused on and trigger rigged ammo. You could then move backwards or sideways to reposition yourself and step on it and kill yourself, not being your fault since it wasn’t there before.
Modifiers like that isn’t adding real difficulty, it just added the potential for cheap and unfair deaths. Using this particular bad modifiers as an example that “players don’t want any form of difficulty” is being disingenuous. People enjoy difficulty, but counterfeit wasn’t “difficult”, it was just cheap and bad mechanically.
Bro really said "but my consecration titan did just fine" i swear datto is such a joker dude
7:10. All the stuff you just said are ways bungie controls what we do and how we play. The majority of players don't like that stuff because it forces us to play how bungie wants us to instead of allowing players to play other styles. It bottlenecks players. I for one can't stand any of the stuff they have as a cover up for "difficulty increases". Mechanics can make things difficult while giving player freedom. The first objective is to make content players can beat, but then make it difficult with mechanics and puzzles. Make us think. Slowly slogging through a gm shooting the same enemy a million times doesn't feel good. As we get more powerful, the bosses health or the number of enemies should increase. We don't want bullet sponges, but we don't want instant kills either. Mmos do a good job of this, sometimes it feels good getting in a random group and beating a boss quickly because everyone is geared and knows mechanics, while other runs, you need to teach and be patient. Bungie and Destiny are so close to being the first 1st person mmo. The raids and dungeons are peak. Just adjust some other content with more mechanics and make a worthwhile loot system. It would be competitive with WoW. Content seems to be in a good spot rn, it's the rewards and the reason why to play that is lacking.
Counterfeit was a gimmicky modifier and I think the problem is consistency. If everything has higher health and damage and my ammo drops are more rare and this element burns more, oh and sometimes your ammo drops can kill you. It just doesn’t feel consistent and especially on light blade it felt more like a cheap one shot that was annoying. I think taking surges out would be nice and bringing back burns so certain enemies or elements hurt extra is fine.
Why is everyone just ignoring the fact that Counterfeit doesn't even just apply to ammo bricks? It's not even just that sometimes your ammo drop can kill you, sometimes ANY drop can get you. An Orb of Light (of which I can easily make hundreds of per Activity), any Engram, FUCKING GLIMMER PILES... Literally. Any. Drop.
The main problem, and the thing that has kept me away from the game, is being forced to play in certain ways WITH NO OTHER OPTIONS.
Strikes are either piss easy, stupidly hard or flat out annoying. Like if I want to get Nightfall progress then I have to deal with a burn, a beneficial mod, a negative mod and champions.
The next step up from that is increased enemy health and damage, equipment locked, no matchmaking, several negative mods and increased difficulty for basically no reason.
As for champions, they get hate because it forces the player to switch to weapons they don’t want to use for like two enemies.
“In this strike you will face ONE Overload Champion, make sure you adjust your entire build so so you can counter it!”
That’s what I’ve personally found annoying with them, but never been enough to make me complain (apart from when the enemies were literally impossible to deal with like Overload teleporting enemies€
I couldnt agree more with this, ive had to do a GM recently in which i had to use certain weapons to deal with the champions but the modifier said the exact weapons i needed for the champions do way less damage the more i use them.... or forcing me to be moving at all time but also making me stand still to scan certain things which then causes me damage.
Skill issue
I think prismatic has helped that "one Champion" issue a lot, but it still exists and yeah - I think that it's very annoying to be forced to use certain equipment too
I feel this
I feel like this kind of goes into the game as a whole in content.
There are a dozen or so mechanics and elements of the game that pile up to just say "op sorry wrong build kiddo."
Like I get encouraging people to try different things but it goes way beyond that. Stop trying to just dictate how I play the game and just let me play.
My 2 cents but probably taken to an extreme
"Challenging" and "don't want my ass railed for 2 more hours than normal" seems to be a major difference many many developers can't comprehend
The counterfeit problem stems from an already-existing problem. Ammo finder mods are inconsistent. You can run an entire gm with heavy ammo finder and only find 3 bricks. So it's just adding frustration when the ammo you get to drop tries to kill you.
Ammo finder mods have been useless for a while
I'd rather Bungie cave to the community rather than to streamers/tubers.
Counterfeit was stupid because I don't need the most braindead replayable activity to have things that slow down the process.
Dying to literally every brick despite having 100resil and the proper burn resist was just absurd.
Modifiers are fine, and can be neat, hard or not. I just really didn't like the ones they added this season when they made strikes feel like a slog.
my issue with the current state of d2 is adding these modifers to lower end content makes them not worth doing since they dont give out good enough rewards to be worth dealing with any special modifers
"No increasing the damage of enemies, no increasing their health pool, no adjustments. Can't have health gated bosses, can't have immunity phases either. That leaves modifiers". Have you considered the reason people hate all of those is because the way bungie execute them are all shit, include the new modifiers?
Counterfeit is a really cool idea, but in game it just suicide bomb if a bunch of adds die next to you. "Just beware of your surrounding", no shit sherlock, I farmed the shit out of Lightblade with counterfeit and the number of time I died to it can be counted on one hand, but that doesn't make it any less of a garbage implementation. Then, instead of adding a deplay arming timer, so the trap mines actually act like mines and not suicide vest, they throw it out of the window all together. "Just frustrated when I feel like Bungie actually does a neat thing or does a good job on something and they get shit on for it", you think that's a good job bungie? We're the one ruined it not how they implement and the way they response to the feedback? Looks like you're so desperate for anything to be difficult you ended up worship whatever filth they put out.
It's like warpriest from d1 to d2 instead of making the fight harder they just gave him more health. They always give bosses more health and stupid immunity phases where the boss can just sit there and deal damage to you while shooting it is pointless and usually when they rework strikes they don't make them longer they just add tedious garbage that shouldn't be added like with lake of shadows where they added the splinter escort the splinter isn't to make the strike harder its to make the strike take longer
Edit: even watching the gameplay he has of inverted spire it looks more or less the same as lake of shadows in terms of intentionally add things that don't make the strike harder just make the strike slower
Timers have always felt bad, and will always feel bad to me. Other people are beyond free to love or hate it, and you can give whatever justification you want for why they exist. That will not change that content that involves a timer will inherently be less fun for me. Every piece of content is a matter of if it’s “tolerable” not if it’s fun.
There are certain exceptions, like a raid encounter needing you to do something in time to avoid death or a wipe. But if you say “You have 15 minutes to complete this”, I immediately want to fuck off and do anything else. I don’t speak for everyone, but I am confident I’m not the only person who feels this way.
Definitely a personality thing on if you like it or not, and no game will ever make it enjoyable for people who fundamentally dislike it
Yep timers and underwater/snow levels have always been hated by games.
"its not going to stop these builds from destroying everything", yeah its going to give everyone more everything to destroy.
People loved that broken week of broken weapons, and people want warframe level power and builds and the miniscreebs thing is EXACTLY what people love, more everything to destroy.
I dont have fun when my AutoRifle takes like 4 magazines to kill a dude. I want to have the same amount of 4 magazines be spread out to kill like 10 dudes, and then have these more challenging Banes and Champs and bosses.
Like. make your trash mobs so you can one shot headshot with a HC or heavy caliber gun. people like clicking heads. people like mowing through crowds.
I havent felt the want to play Destiny since GM Excision dropped.
6:44 when you lay it out like that...
How fake ammo bricks got me bricked up
ive heard health and dmg bumps called artificial difficulty before, and honestly its something i tend to agree with, just shortening TTD usually results in more increase to frustration than difficulty due to it being a blanket solution that can cause unintended side effects (for exaple if everything gets a 35% dmg buff this may not effect small instances of dmg but may tip larger chunks over thresholds to one shot, removing the ability to recover and changing from difficulty to just annoyance) its a big part of why higher difficult content doesnt get engaged with near as much.
there a thousands of other things you can do, different enemies, more of them, different placements, map alterations, or even the modifiers theyre playing with, all forms of increasing difficulty without just "SUPRISE! youre dead now, and whatever killed you did so before you could learn anything because the ttd is AS fast as the average reaction time"
now on the flip side i do understand that tweaking numeric values is much MUCH easier than setting completely new spawns, enemies, map terrain, etc.
Gods, you are tempting me Datto. The new modifiers sound so good, I just might try playing again.
No I'm in fact not okay with banes...
Because the only one that's actually difficult and requires attention is the drain bane. All others can very easily be dealt with if they can even actually activate their bane since the enemy is likely dead within a second or two unless a boss wyvern has the bane.
I wish the challenges flashed on screen like the modifiers do, so they'd be more obvious instead of putting them in the left like an objective. I usually listen to music, scary stories, or podcasts while I play. That usually ends in me accidentally ignoring the challenge. And then me feel dum
I like modifiers that I can interact with, not ones that just say "tough shit, deal with it"
You need to be hyper aware that playing destiny is literally your job. For the rest of us that dont play video games as a career, video games are a form of escape and exist for the sole purpose of delivering enjoyment. I dont work 6 days a week and raise kids to turn around and clock in for my shift on destiny. I want to have fun and enjoy my experiences. Its absurdly clear that one of bungies last priorities is how much fun players are having. They are very concerned with balances and forced engagement to drive the metrics that matter for them. With all that being said, none of the changes you listed were made to make the game more fun or easier or take less time to complete objectives. Bungie isn't concerned with how I personally want to play the game and they are too willing to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying it. In what reality is that hard to understand. You keep shaking your finger at what sounds like the large majority of players who have been given zero respect or consideration despite being the ones essentially paying for everything..... it's an odd move from you and bungie.
@@hanshotfrst803 if seasonal activity is hard for you, ther is bad news…
@hiikkachu no sir have no issue with the difficulty. I have 7x gilded conqueror. My point wasn't "the game is too hard" it was "stop shaming people who dont want to commit full time to a game. If people are having fun using a broken super what's the harm?" Datto light flexing on people who dont like shifting metas or nerfs calling them essentially lazy for not wanting to be try hards. I enjoy a challenge when I want a challenge and I enjoy cheese when I want cheese. Both can exist at the same time. Why make people feel bad for liking cheese?
@@hanshotfrst803 no one (except trolls) was saying every part of game, even random patrol, need to be -50 light with champ every second. people was telling they want HARD content to be challenging, with variety, with situations you need to adapt. bungie experiment and do different small steps in that direction, but reddit/twitter cry "they have 14 kids and 8 jobs and no time/skill to do gm because of modifiers, nerf them". game already have different variety of difficulty in activities, but "dads" want best gear with no effort. you can play any random build in any activity except gms, raids and dungeons, and even here you dont need to minmax or have top 1% skill, just some brain and effort. THAT is lazy and shameble. but "dads" make it like "tryhards" want to every inch of game need to be hard, while second speak only and only about several activities.
I think what alot of people are missing in some of these modifiers is that it feels like a mini tutorial with them. Move around or take dmg, think about what things to pick up off the battlefield, target priority, make more than 1 build on a character and so on. Maybe it has been me who stopped playing for awhile to enjoy different things but coming back to thess modifiers are kinda refreshing. New things to consider other than just "Oh what champs and surge? Oh got it, this build with these weapons"
"Artificial difficulty" - I wish Bungie would pull the levers in different directions. More aggressive, more damage, less enemy health, for example. Pulling them all to the top is frustrating.
Bungie: "Players snipe and use scouts too much. Nerf them."
Players: *builds into melee builds*
Bungie: let's make counterfeit! That way they can't melee things.
Players: really?!
Datto: It IsNt HaRd PlEb. BuNgIe WaNt YoU tO hAvE fUn
Counterfeit means don’t play melee and something like the modifier for constant movement means don’t play range, just use your brain and play according to the strengths and weaknesses of the situation and modifiers
I still feel like Datto doesn't understand that a video game isn't supposed to be a full-time job.
If you think dealing with modifiers will require a time of a full time job out of you.. maybe way too much skill issue and you should leave the game for good!
It’s an rpg looter shooter, it kinda is meant to have lots of depth and time that can be spent in it. Ever consider that maybe this type of genre just isn’t for you? A game made for everyone is a game made for nobody
If the game feels like a job, because it's asking you to read a modifier, maybe you should find another game to play.
BINGO.
Streamers content creators ruin games. Just my opinion obviously
@@gamer94339 Datto wipes a GM Nightfall due to exploding ammo brick and it’s just a laugh because he’s still getting paid for streaming it.
Meanwhile Working Joe wipes and he’s just wasted a half hour of his limited gaming session with nothing to show for it.
I will paste the infamous quote as well: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.” -Soren Johnson and Sid Meier
Well you kinda have to optimize to the maximum possible level in the endgame if you don’t have godlike game sense like Datto. And he optimizes the fuck out of this game.
New title " Elitist datto says we all suck and need to get good " 🤣
Totally agree, love hearing a good rant or "hot takes".
Datto: I want the game to be CBT
The average player: I just wanna have fun.
Datto: Drops a 21 minute video about how you're wrong
Exactly this.
Good points Datto, however you forgot that when YOU play the game you play with your friends who know what they are doing, when I tried to convince my friends to play with me they said this game is either “a malady on the gaming industry” or “a joke of a walking corpse” so I have to PF or Solo queue in which 9/10 times I get paired with two monkeys who facetank ALL the enemy’s bullets and leave me to fight for my life (I die not long after), needless to say my experience is stressful enough and then I trip on a brick, die suddenly and my so called “teammates” quit the match, I love modifiers 😊
"I don't have friends that like the game and I refuse to make them as if LFG discords aren't full of people looking for friends, so the game should have 0 difficulty"
@@brambleleaves47Nice own of fucking strawman you peasant.
I always find it crazy when datto says people hate this or that, because, i mostly play with my friends, and we are better then the average player, so when i hear these complains, i wonder why do people even play this game for? Idle and shoot enemies like a turret? There are better games for that
Id say that the perception that bungie did x because they hate you is deeply rooted in bungie's long history of artificially prolonged or absurd levels of grind, all kinds of upsetting money issues, and content removal. Its actually hard to articulate sentences to point to every problem destiny has had that makes people angry at bungie, and makes bungie have a stigma of every action they take can feel like there's a bad trade off hidden in there
Before implementing modifiers, they should take care of pathfiding and AI in general. The fucking teleporting just as you shoot, or right behind you as you turn for a split second is just stupid.
Not to mention champions that, even though stunned, still manage to kill you.
They claim the AI is more aggressive, but I've seen better AI in Counter Strike 1.6.
As someone who mainly plays D2 and creates a living off it, you have the Vanguard Modifier of Content Creator, elitist Datto.
You can enjoy this game to its fullest, at any level because you have community, experience, and time in abundance.
A large majority of the players of D2 seldom can enjoy the benefits of 1 or 2 of those three points I just mentioned in tandem.
So I understand the vent, I truly do. But I also understand the players who complain, who whinge who cry and rant. They'll fight for the D2 experience THEY want on THEIR TERMS just as all of you will in the comments, Reddit etc.
Merely an observation, it's not that deep bros.
my problem with counterfeit...
why tf are the bricks invisible at times????
I'll be running through an area and see NOTHING on the ground, die, then see i died to counterfeit...
Oscillation also made it so the weapons they forced you to use became weaker over time until they’re flat out useless. That one was awful, the rest of them I can live with.
It seems to be back now by the way.
The main issue me and my fireteam had with the new Inverted Spire GM wasn't the new modifier, but the fact that one of us died in the parkour right before the tanks section and didn't get pulled until we got inside the drill, so probably 50% of the strike.
Hot news: “10 year Destiny Professional Videogamer/streamer/creator is bored, says game too easy & is frustrated by casuals again”
The battle continues between casuals asking for fun gameplay & professional gamers demanding for more “challenge” in video game. 😂 smh 🤦 it never ends.
i give up on datto the crybabist
I feel like the adept loot system de incentives playing anything else than a gm so people feel forced to do the hardest difficulty nightfalls because lower difficulties feel like they give no loot
Also adept loot from trials sucks now considering the changes
I play gm because regular ops has been power crept beyond saving. Ur fightingnur fireteam for kills
I liked these modifiers. I wish there was more. Been playing so long any change is good. Also Banes are amazing.
As a therapist maybe I need to start telling my clients that their situational awareness in video games might improve if they practice mindfulness, lol
2:00 It is artificial difficulty.
Increasing an enemies HP and damage doesn't change how you deal with it. Once you know how to properly fight the enemy increasing its health and how much damage it does, doesn't change how you effectively fight it. It just affects how long it takes to kill it and decreases the forgiveness for mistakes.
Since this is the only way Bungie seems to know how to increase difficulty, that means we've reached the point in high end activities where you frequently get one shot by enemies that can take forever to kill. That turns it into a game of attrition where you slowly whittle enemies health down while having to avoid making any mistakes, because one hit can easily result in instant death (we'll ignore the BS like that Overload Minotaur that teleported behind you).
3:32 The Corrupt has been in the game for ~6 years now and people STILL don't know to pass the damn orbs, so yeah. While more complex mechanics would be nice, it's a fool's hope.
11:28 I'm a dirty plink plonker, I'm move around constantly just like you. Strafing, moving forward and backwards a bit. If you're used to taking advantage of Perpetual Motion, haste is a non-factor.
Datto-if it takes 5 times longer to kill it must be 5 times harder
I'll say initially, you kinda said the main issue with Destiny 2 right at the end, they've run out of design space. Their aging engine can't render enough things on screen to be threatening for the power that players have ascended to, so the best option they have is to resort to 'cheap tricks' instead of actually making the MEAT of the game the engaging part.
Playing Darktide has put that into perspective to me. They spawn a raft of tiny little poxwalkers, up to 100 on screen, and unlike in D2, I know if I don't actively deal with them for upwards of 10 seconds of pulse pounding combat, 4+ of them will get a hit off on me and I'll get roasted alive. But, I have the tools to deal with them, be it a melee weapon that cleaves dozens of them dead in a swipe, or a ranged weapon that sends piercing bullets through the crowd.
But one of which keeps me vulnerable and 'on the cusp of death but still fighting' (the melee option), the other, has very limited quantity of ammunition, meaning one has to be VERY careful on how they use it so that they aren't dry when the moment truly matters. This makes moment to moment gameplay inherently engaging, something D1 understood with even primary ammo running low at certain points in missions, making stuff like Icebreaker feel like cheating, and quality execution feel impactful and empowering.
In D2, you got infinite primary ammo, said primary ammo able to wipe the room in 1-2 shots 90% of the time. This completely removes like, 90% of the dials bungie would normally have to provide difficulty to their players, or rather difficulty that matters/feels good to play with. Spawn a bunch of guys? as you say, they all die just the same as the rest in one clip and the person that did it is probably back to full. Make them sponges so they can tank such hits? Well now that invalidates the whole point of that weapon class, making said weapons worthless and making those that like them incredibly upset.
And unlike other games with RPG mechanics like Darktide or Mass Effect or Warframe, they don't have a dedicated armor system. So the game isn't inherently teaching to deal with 'champion light' enemies, like how darktide goes 'hay, there are heavy armor enemies' and you go 'ohh cool, I'll make sure to keep a weapon that can pierce heavy armor on my build, of which there are many to fit my playstyle'. So instead, they need to shoe horn in champions, and instead of making certain weapon types champion busters for the same effect, they rotate them. Meaning players are like 'ohh cool, I want to deal with overloads....but I hate autos (for example), guess Ill die'. This is elevated a bit by them making keywords do it, but what if I want to get my player buff from something other than radiant? get f%cked loser play the game BUNGIE wants you to play.
This is already not the best way to handle this, but then they go about doing other unfun things. I'll quickly go through the list you presented, but timers are cheap and bull shit on activities you have no way of engaging with prior to clicking on them. Losing because I'm figuring shit out and having to start over feels terrible, will always feel terrible, and should only be utilized as ways of getting BONUS rewards for excellence, not a requirement for completion. Boosted enemy health just makes shit take longer for no benefit, if the health goes up there needs to be an understandable reason for it (like clicking on a higher difficulty), and even then it needs to be done WELL so people aren't feeling like the gameplay loop just becomes 'stand in spot and hold down trigger until target is dead for twice as long'. That isn't engaging, that's boring. I personally thing your view on mechanics is scewed in your rarified youtuber air, as basically NOBody want's mechanics, for if they did, they'd learn how to pass a f$cking ball in that one strike. Mechanics don't feel great unless they bleed into combat. Shooting the back of a wyvern, good! Having to run onto a random plate to make X enemy actually take damage, garbage! :D Having to interact with the enemy makes the moment to moment actually interactive, and that leads into immunity phases. They are bad, if you need them, you have broken your game. Things should not need to literally be uninterruptible to be a threat, not especially in a combat oriented first person shooter. The thing to deal with an enemy should always be present on them, and allow you to thus, deal with them. Separating that out makes it feel terrible, as now you aren't playing the game, you're playing Professor laton while things you can't interact with are shooting at you.
This leaves the enemies themselves, of which, I hope banes are the starting point. Haven't touched the game since the laughable attempt at a dungeon that was Vesper, but from the sounds of it Banes feel like the only real 'actually fun' road they have left to try and make the moment to moment gameplay matter. 'Specialist's', as they are called in Darktide, always keep each run fresh as their spawns can be random, they run around the map, and they actively do very annoying things that you very much don't want them to do. This makes killing them rewarding, and seeking them out to do so feel very nice. The Banes sound like a step in that direction, and I'm all for it, as having various enemies become something that can actually annoy you but not be so 'lock and key' styled like Champs feels like it's 'all they got left' that hasn't been written out of their game due to power creep.
I hope that evolves, might make the game actually enjoyable if I return to it.
But yeah, at the end of the day the majority are either casual players that cry at difficulty, or combat oriented players (like what used to be me) that want the moment to moment to actually feel engaging and satisfying, and haven't felt that way in years. Enemy density combined with actual balance in the guns and power behind them create this fun, as you have to build your loadout to deal with various forms of interactions, BUT you aren't FORCED (like bungie seems to be leaning toward in your examples of modifiers) in to anything in specific. It's fun to pick and choose what armor piercer a wave clear options I want in Darktide, and what abilities and talents I want to use. I have 12+ builds on 7 different characters (2 of each besides the ogryn) and ALL of them are functional on Darktides highest, most difficult and engaging style of play.
When you click on a GM in D2, you are suddenly playing one of 3 builds, have to put on X weapon archtype, and are immediately bored because you are playing the same exact mission with absolutely no changes you did 5 years ago. This is not fun, this is not engaging, and this does not spark joy.
And now with stuff like the ammo box modifier or the weapon rotator modifier it sounds like, they are saying 'actually, you have 1-2 builds now, and you have to use an smg'. And in a game all about 'player agency' and choice (at least that's what it used to be), that feels like crap. The game should be encouraging experimentation and creative solutions to problems, not manufacturing problems and forcing one particular solution.
Good examples in Darktide yet again, their modifiers are strictly things that increase particular special spawns, or in one rare instance basically make random enemies in a horde 'empowered' (effectively banned) so they can't be staggers and have more health, but glow brightly to indicate their presence. They also have mission modfiers that change up gameplay, stuff like 'this mission now spawns gas on the ground that hurts you, so you should make sure you aren't on it when it does and have certain 'rest locations' that you are designated to hold out in, the poison CAN be pushed through with the right set ups though if you want to', or 'this mission is foggy and spawns more shooter type enemies, so get used to sitting in cover and pointing out what's shooting at you'. All this plays into keeping the runs different and has the player tackle them slightly differently, but all of them let the player still use the build they want, just play it in an augmented way depending on what's available.
Bungie needs to understand that when it comes to combat challenge. THAT's what's desired. Make me approach something in a way I haven't thought of before, don't invalidate my syntho melee build YOU put in to the game just because 'everything's a cursed thrall now'. I'm not approaching it differently at that point/the moment to moment hasn't changed, I'm now being told the way I want to play is just blatantly wrong and you should feel bad. And that isn't good design, that's abrasive design. Especially if build crafting is supposed to be a key part of the game (of which basically has fully died at this point, as there's only 2-3 'best builds' per class, and anything else is just different colored explosions).
I love that at around 12:35 Datto literally said skill issue for people complaining lmao
Yes only his complaints matter
14:10 I saw that modifier and thought I'd hate it, but oh my gosh I've never had more fun in gms. Granted I couldnt use the loadout I wanted, but the loadout switching and making things like Dmt and Symmetry one shot major legionaries. I cant wait to see what they cook up next.
To be honest the birthplace of the vile gm with brawn was the most fun I’ve ever had with a gm. Promoted smart and aggressive play as well as putting your build through its paces without sacrificing difficulty one mistake could still wipe you but you won’t be shredded in half a second forcing you to play passive from long range.
Is datto slowly becoming ChatGPT?
The only thing i can say is:
As a returning player, the recent changes were pretty jarring.
Strikes have a level to them asking you to be half way to the max power. Which i found odd. Since in older days i’d just go STRAIGHT to strikes to level up. Felt like i was required to try hard in strikes when under power level.
Than it just felt like i was getting memed on when HP won’t regen or ammo blows up. I think modifiers like that belong in night falls or something. Not lil timmy’s 1st strike.
People were legit abandoning BASIC STRIKES because they couldn’t stop dying. Which is pitiful but an obvious that things like this do not belong in ‘easy’ activities.
And as for mechanics. Bruh that ‘taken techian witch’ strike has been out for EONS and people still don’t know to pass the ball. Mechanics & difficulty modifiers don’t belong in super basic content.
Now night falls or GM. Hell yeah go for it! Bring it on! I’ll never in my life touch GM content. Go nuts bungie.
you have to play the game for like 2 days to get to 1950 power level what do you mean
also just read the modifier and youll know what do to
My main thought on this for a while is that people believe that GMs are supposed to be farmable, and any modifier that interferes with that is disliked. I think that if bungie wants to have a real hard-mode strike setting, it needs to have set rewards (aka non-farmable), and they could probably put all the difficulty on it that they want.
destiny players literally just want to pull the glorified slot machine for random loot they will never use, i swear most players actively don't want to engage with the games mechanics and just mindlessly shoot things to get loot, people don't like crafting in the game because it removes the fluff from the game and all that's left is the actual gameplay, which they clearly don't enjoy otherwise the community wouldn't cry about the slightest increase in challenge. I hate to be the "oh destiny 1 was better" cause i think the game was lowkey dogshit, but at least in d1 if you wanted to hit max power and get the best loot in the game you had to earn it, instead of just mindlessly running onslaught or some shit
I really liked the ammo bricks blowing up. Hated it at first but then changed my play a little bit and learned to like it. I also like the new vesper boss phase, it’s nice to actually move around and it’s just chaos instead of just stand here and shoot
Thank you, Elitist Datto, for being the voice of reason for the intelligent portion of the playerbase.
The perpetual pissing and moaning that literally ANY form of challenge is "artificial difficulty" is legitimately the definition of smoothbrain.
I can't wait for the challenge meter system coming next year, and I ABSOLUTELY hope that loot drops are substantially swayed by higher difficulty. That way, your "waaaaa Grounded is too difficult, waaaaaaa I have to take off my Mountaintop/Recluse"-looking selves can get exactly one badly rolled Lunulata for your minimum effort.
PREACH!!! i hope baseline difficulties get glimmer only
datto is not the voice for the intelligent portion of the playerbase
he is out of touch, forgetting that this is literally his job where he has nigh on endless time to pursue this game
meanwhile how much do you want to bet the people complaining are those that, most of the time, do not? they come to this for entertainment, FUN? these modifiers, and how they get implemented, are not conducive to fun.
especially when its more of being told by bungie "you play how we want you to play, not how YOU want to play, despite buildcrafting being important"
Getting blown up by a heavy ammo brick for the first time is a top 10 funniest gaming moment I have ever experienced.