Mass Effect 3 - The Indoctrination Theory CleverNoob Documentary Part 2 Reupload
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- Опубліковано 19 тра 2015
- I remember watching this a while back and I was sad to find out that it has been deleted from youtube after the deletion of Clevernoob's channel, and since I can't find it anywhere else on the internet, I figured I'd upload a copy of it, since I do think this is a very well made video that should be put up for fans of the Mass Effect series to view and discuss with other fans. Enjoy part 2 of this fascinating documentary.
I claim no ownership of anything related to this video. I did not make it, I take no credit with anything related to the creation of this video, this is purely a reupload. - Ігри
Clevernoob: There's no way Bioware got this sloppy in the final hours of the game. This was all intentional.
Bioware in 2021: We were not smart enough to come up with a theory like this.
did they actually say that somewhere? do you have a link pls?
@@herrenhessen8609 www.gamesradar.com/mass-effect-3s-indoctrination-fan-theory-is-incorrect-but-the-devs-love-it/
@@mickeyveach3612 cheers!
@@mickeyveach3612 I would take Chris Hepler's opinion with a grain of salt, he was a Bioware Writer yes, but he was only brought in after 3/6 of the original writers left (which is why the story for ME2 changed so drastically, and his main work was weapon codex entries and planet entries, nothing relating to the major overarching plot, and he only did this work for ME2 and 3 not the first one.
No matter what you think of the indoctrination theory, even after the extended cut, the ending sequence of the game literally HAS to be a dream as every single element of it makes absolutely zero sense otherwise.
@@mw5769 I fail to see how his specific job and entry point of said job means I have to take it with a grain of salt. He wasn't some third string writer detached from the going ons. Bioware writers all peer review their works together and have dedicated meetings about every scene. He knew every scene thoroughly. Also, according to Karpyshyn himself they didn't even have an ending planned yet at the time of making 1 so Hepler's lack of involvement in that one doesn't discredit him. The original ending was about dark energy and the reapers trying to prevent The Big Crunch (which ME2 foreshadows and Hepler was on staff with them at the time). But stupid EA made them change the ending with an 18 month development window.
I know it's hard to believe, but the IT theory was not intentional. But its still valid.
Another reason why the destroy option is the only one with low EMS is because the reapers know they don't need to indoctrinate him because they are going to win the war anyway, because the galaxy is not prepared.
The reaper wins anyways in the long run no matter how prepared the galaxy is but good idea to the low ems ending
Late comment but from memory if u save the collector base and have low ems then the only ending available is the control ending. If the reapers have already won, why is it necessary to indoctrinate shepard? Furthermore why can't shepard fight back against the indoctrination by choosing the destroy ending?
@@krisxchirbas9503 Harbinger basically wants Shepard to be the mind behind the human reaper
In the recent re-release, the locked door hasn't been fixed, it's still locked when the kid goes through and they have done more than improve textures, like making the tank weigh more than 3 pounds in the first game, altering the leveling systems so they're more consistent, removing the need to play the multi-player for 3. But the door's still locked, it would have taken less time to fix and they would have known about it by now.
Former QA Tester here (it's just Q-A, not Q & A) RE: Tree reflections - This is probably because the mat/reflection map is reused from an area with trees. If they're not visible from the playable area, they just don't matter to production.
the ending has always felt like a dream, it feels way too out there to be real. Even with the extended cut the ending doesn't feel right.
Well i thought about it a lot and i completely agree and follow the indoctrination Theory. I came up with something and maybe some of you won't agree but i'm gonna tell anyway :
They've been searching the Catalyst for quite some time and at some point it's said that it is in fact The Citadel and later the Kid says he's The Catalyst. Have you ever considered that maybe, MAYBE, The true Catalyst, is in fact ( as a gorgeous Asari said couple times in ME1) the remarquably strong willeded mind of Shepard?
They tried countless times to andoctrinate him at several occasions because he represents the Paragon of humanity, and they know (mostly Harbinger), that in order to get humanity they need to get him and that's why the Kid/Harbinger? is trying to mess with his head. After the beam, he thinks he can trick him into making the good/wrong choice by lying to him about the wong/good choice in the end.
For me, the crucible needed someone mentaly strong enough to activate. What i think we see after Shepard's choice in the destruction choice is, what he thinks is gonna happen after chosing the destroy choice because of what the KId/Harbinger said about this particular choice, (so we see the destruction of the mass relays, the destruction of all synthetic life ...) But the only real moments are as follow : Before the Beam, Shepard's choice and the gasp's scene. Everything in between is part of the failed attempts of indoctrination on him and some illusion his mind created because of the lies associated with his choice.
This gives us room for an other trilogy somewhere else with our favorite worst dancer/savior of the galaxy and his formidable crew.
And he still owes Garus a drink but... on the beach ;)
And also Liara a lot of blue children..
explain me one thing , how dose Shepard destroys the reapoers with his mind? if he is dreaming the entier time!?
@@darthmarr9886 It didn't.
Basically yes, as soon as Shepard gets beamed by Harbinger, it's all happening in his/her head... RIGHT UP until the last, final gasp when he/she supposedly wakes up in the very last scene among the rubble (That only happens if you chose the Destroy ending and also have enought military strenght before the final assault)
@@alphamorion4314 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
So then how Shepards destroyed the reapers if Shepard was dreaming?
This theory is so stupid.
@@darthmarr9886 ... I believe you're missing the point, friend XD
He DIDN'T destroy the Reapers XD That's the whole point of the indoctrination theory, it was all on his/her head XD
@@alphamorion4314 so "mass effect 4" starts with destroying them?
What stupid ending is this then?
If its just a dream, then this is the worst story ending of all time.
It's not even over.
Why would Bioware do that, when they clearly said multiple times they wanted a trilogy. And Shepards story is over?
Hey believe in what theory you want, but it is still stupid and makes even less sense then the one bioware made.
“Wouldn’t it be a middle finger to new players if they had to replay the entire game to see the REAL ending?”
You mean like how countless other games all do if you don’t achieve certain criteria you mean ?
I feel like I'm the one being indoctrinated by CleverNoob because I'm actually starting to buy into this theory
Now you know how people back into 2012 feel. The original ending was so lame and cheap(in light of whole 3 games), so fans can't really believe it was true.
@@ErGeSl For me Extended ending isn't any better. But it's just my opinion. I believe that Indoctrination Theory gives much better conclusion of all 3 games. It brings back the idea of Reapers being powerful beyond our understanding back from ME 1. And show us that they are much more inteligent then is shown in ME 3.
How.
Why else would they make a Mass Effect 4 with shepard? It ends in a cliffhanger with the reapers taking over Earth but shepard still surviving. In Mass Effect 4 we would really have to take back Earth by destroying Illusive Mans final form controlled by Harbinger the way Sarens final form controlled by Sovereign
We have a word for that: gullible.
UPDATED 12/10/2020:
Hi all! Julian here (aka CleverNoob).
If you're here because you can't find the original videos anymore, here's why:
I actually came back to UA-cam a few years ago and attempted to rebrand, doing analysis videos. During the rebranding process, I responded to some old messages from fans to tie up loose ends. Apparently this is against UA-cam's ToS, as they view doing so as a form of spam (?) due to the age of the messages. I was literally just answering their questions. I appealed but it was upheld, which ultimately seems like it was a blessing in disguise, because the new UA-cam culture isn't for me.
Since then, I've moved on to more academic pursuits. I'm releasing a podcast in January of 2021 called "The Crown Mindset", which is centered around self-improvement methods rooted in neuroscience and psychology. I'm also working toward a P.h.D., but you can bet your credits I'll be playing the remastered trilogy and what LOOKS like Mass Effect 4 possibly? All I know is that sure looked a lot like Liara in that trailer! Smells like the Indoctrination Theory to me. If you want to talk Mass Effect with me, search for me on Twitter; I love chatting with you all!
But thanks everyone for your support! I hope these videos will always bring back good memories for you, as they do for me. Thank you to Tyler for preserving these videos. Take care everybody!
What do you think of the levaithan DLC?
with the teaser trailer of ME4 released. it is now time to resurrect the indoctrination theory and tie it into the trailer. this must be done.
Nice! Thank you for the Update!
I am eternally grateful to you for exposing me to Zallex's Levitate.
@@drazam6608 This! i wanna know too
I think Shepard's indoctrination started when he heard the roar at the start of mass effect 1.
@Lomborg That too.
I mean, one of the first civilians you meet tells you about the sound boring right into your brain.
it would make sense for that they had started on eden prime
made more progress when the collectors pick you up (Laira(i think) mentioned that the shadow broker had stolen you from the collectors)) and again with the exposure to the human reaper, with shep inside the dead reaper and with the exposure with arrival DLC
and you fuck around with reaper tech daily with ME3
Yup. Even all of the people we talk to on Eden Prime describe what IT sounds like.
@Lomborg Shepard was exposed to many Reaper artifacts in ME1. There was one on Feros and many side missions lead you to research bases that had one. Then there is Vermire.
But they DID only add new cutscenes & nothing else with the DLC.
Watching this years after the release, excited for the remaster. I laughed when he got to that🤣🤣🤣
Honestly, if this theory is true, then Mass Effect 3 is the best written game ever made.
well mass effect andromeda killed this theory but maybe they do new mass effect game maybe maybe sorry for bad eng
Red GTR no andromeda was a prequel to mass effect 3
@@ulysses3083 yes and no. Yes, the opening cinematic showing the initiative leaving the Milky Way is before ME3, but everything after Ryder wakes up is centuries after 3
@Lonely Shadow Oh stop it wasn't that bad. Sure the story didn't have the depth as the trilogy but the gameplay was much better. using the Nomad and exploring the planets was actually enjoyable. They had a map that wasn't a literal meme... Looking at you ME3 and your stupid little cat and mouse mini game crap. There was a lot of really good things about ME;A just not the writing and dialogue... I mean seriously we had like nothing when it came to choosing our own path of how to handle certain situations.
@Lonely Shadow Andromeda was done by a different BioWare studio. Not their Montreal but again ME;A had the best gameplay of the games but the story was sooooo linear. A couple of the loyalty missions were some of the best in all of Mass Effect. Andromeda had plenty that was good about it just didn't have the same replayability as the og games.
On top of the gameplay being much faster paced and really enjoyable on the highest difficulties the amount of builds you could do was also way more varied than the OG games. Just lacked the same kind of story telling and voice acting.
ME4 confirming Indoctrination theory makes more sense than picking one of the 4 options. It will be interesting if the Legendary edition alters any of the evidence though
Yes, that's also what I think.
It just makes sense on multiple leves. Not only because the indoctrination theory just automatically covers a LOT of plotholes and fixes them "naturally", but also if they reframe ME3 ending confirming the indoctrination theory, then that means we never got to know how the war was ACTUALLY resolved. Ergo, that means that they can basically move in wichever direction they see fit and have a lot of creative freedom without being "hardlocked" by one specific canonical ending.
@@alphamorion4314 Yeah. But this is EA we are talking about. The logic won't sway them, though annoying the fan base might
@@jasonitaliano8631 True.
Funny though... at least on paper, it would seem the smart thing to do also on a monetary level. But then again... it would seem the smart thing to actually deliver proper games instead of rushed and barely finished ones... soo... yeah. EA.
I just realized something, assuming that the end is real life, this is the first time Shepard and TIM are meeting in person. Every other time Shepard talks to TIM, they are using holograms or vid screens. For a while I was convinced that maybe TIM is really just a projection created by the reapers. However I figured out there is a lot of evidence to counter this argument. At the beginning of ME2 Miranda is talking to TIM and they are in the same room. Also I started reading some of the novels TIM has many in person encounters with other characters. Finally, in the Arrival DLC, during the still with your crew just standing there, I'm pretty sure TIM was among them.
I always figured Destroy was red because its defiance, and as we've seen, renegade is much more defiant than Paragon. Blue was assuming acceptance. In the end, I think the message is, Red doesn't mean evil, nor does renegade, and blue doesn't mean good, nor does Paragon.
@@Anonymous-xu2qk this was an old ass comment, lol.
I think it also applies when sometimes you’re given a renegade prompt but you experience no renegade points from performing it
@@JuanGarcia-fd9oo I think I would have preferred no renegade or paragon and instead just have the actions have tangible outcomes for what you did. The whole renegade/paragon thing is a bit arbitrary. I especially hate how being neutral is such a bad thing in this game, as is mixing renegade and paragon actions.
@@trslim6032 Here’s hoping mass effect 4 gets rid of the system, I love the mass effect series to death even if mass effect 3 was not up to par to the other games. But, like you said it’s hard to have a enjoyable mixed play through. Mass effect andromeda was terrible compared to the trilogy but I appreciated the lack of the system even though your choices didn’t matter much in that game.
Satan, the deciever, appears as a being of light
Honestly I never thought abiut that in relation to mass effect but it has undeniable relevance here
@@lali_kay Harbinger is basically space Satan!! At least as far as I am concerned...
So does God; that is why it is effective to do so.
Satan, the deceiver, is also a made up thing
@@I_am_a_cat_ peanut brain go back to 2012 or read a book
41:12 (Not sure the exact time): In away Andaroson is also breaking the fourth wall. He could be saying they're "referring to the player" controlling you "referring to Shepard"
+Laser Pictures yeah, i think that was the point more than talking to shepard (if they wanted him to not talk to TIM)
In response to the Viper Nebula point, I believe Lorewise, all the Factions had refit their Dreadnaughts (if not all their ships) with Thanix Cannons starting after ME2, and by the final battle over Earth, but since the CGI had been made first and had been expensive and time consuming to make, they kept it in anyway.
It's also definitely not the Viper Nebula anyway. On the Galaxy map he shows, the Viper Nebula is ostensibly completely on its own on that wing of the galaxy, whereas when we see the Crucible fire, the first one the blast is fired at is RIGHT next to the origin point. Still not the Local Cluster, but it's most assuredly also not the Viper Nebula.
Man it just sucks that Bioware debunked this. They should have just given the fans a nod and gone down in video game history as geniuses without actually cleaning up the endings
I wouldn't take what one ex-dev said about the theory too seriously because there were a lot of ideas in the pot that he might not of known about and the claim the guy made that they hadn't laid the necessary ground work for a indoctrination ending is wrong, even as far back as ME1 with Seran, Bioware as we know change the original planned ending as it was leaked and I think they considered it too complicated, time consuming and or not entirely finished so they went for something that was different to a typical story ending but simpler to make
the music makes it hard to watch, especially when it is as loud as his voice, the rest is good.
In hindsight not confirming or denying the Indoctrination Theory was genius marketing on BioWares part
Here is something I just thought of after finishing the Leviathan DLC. The Reapers forced the Leviathans into hiding, but with the Reapers gone (Destroy obviously being the good ending) What is stopping the Leviathans from taking over. Remember the Cicle might be broken, but Galactic Population has been decimated.
That's something I've heard too. Would definitely be interesting to see and maybe they could the antagonist of a Mass Effect sequel taking place in the Milky Way. But they do share a lot in common with the Reapers and are basically organic Reapers.
@@matro2 the Reapers are organic though. Well… they are synthetics created directly from Organic material. Their Minds are organic.
Another reason that Starbrat is lying about controlling them.
The fact that there is very few of them left and that we are fully aware and equipped against their main form of attack. The orbs.
So far as we've seen the leviathan's don't have natural laser eyes or impenetrable armour neither do they possess the harvesting technology to create infinite cannon fodder.
I'm thinking they are just giant psychic crabs the only advantage the fact that they gained consciousness before everyone else this controlling the galaxy from behind by the orbs.
also on the starchild thing. its rather obvious its a reaper plant, from a writing standpoint. when you look at the reapers as a "devil" archtype, then think of any movie with demons/devils and children.
its an extremely common trope in writing to have evil present as the innocence of a child. the starchild is obviously such an attempt. in fact, its etherial nature bolsters this thought. the reapers want to embody themselves in shepard's idea of innocence; but they cant truly comprehend a human perspective. so they make their "avatar" still be overtly other,still somehow more than what it looks.
And if you refuse or shot the child, a reaper voices says: So be it. So he is a reaper for sure.
The scenes shepard sees if he lets the timer run out are very similar to what he sees when he uses the beacon on eden prime
BioWare: Let's write this super long and specific Codex for every game that explains every logic, science and supernatural elements of Mass Effect universe so all the things that happens in the game are set in it's reality.
Also BioWare, but when developing finale: Fuck this Codex.
I don't buy it.
Dude, thanks so much for uploading the videos again.
My answer to the "child runs into locked door" thing is that it's a private residence. The hologram appears red because your omni-tool registers that you're not "welcome," whereas the child is. Assuming of course that is what the holograms are, and not just a visualization of the bottom prompt
Okay, that's a wonderful explanation on how the kid went through the locked door - honestly...
The issue is, how did the kid get there in the first place? It's clearly the same kid that was playing on a lower building across the way with 0 connection to the building we see him in next (which, we had)... so how did he decend his 20+ story building, make it all the way to the building we see him in next, then scale, or climb (via stairs or even elevator) to the top floor of the jet building, even faster than we did with a direct path to it... it's just mind blowing on how he would of made it... or even why..?
I didn't even think about the explosion that takes place, which also should have killed him, but the kid travels at Mach 5 to make it there before we do.... it is so odd how that happens, coupled with the fact that no one else seems to see him in the series..
You forget that you have to be up close to the door for it to open, and even going a bit slightly too far from it and it closes. The door opens when the kid is way too far for him to have affected the door.
If Shepard chooses to eather controll or merge with the syntetich reapers he litteraly turns into a husk, how is that not proof enough? And the destroy ending is the only one where he actually survives
Still amazing. I’m a believer.
When you hear the recordings in Andromeda of the last transmissions from the Milky Way... messages of the reaper devastation... followed by silence... solidify this for me.
What a beautiful tragedy
sadly the theory isnt not canon, the messages were made before the end of mass effect 3
@@Cichyhub the only thing we know that is canon is Destroy ending which give IT a rather high chance of being canon. We will find out in ME4
@@Cichyhub I know it's not canon, but the fun part is that it still could be. :) There were no messages of any kind intercepted by that ship for the hundreds of years of stasis after those last final emergency ones... Which could be interpreted as galaxy destruction. But, I'm sure the dev's won't have the guts to go with that direction, preferring to stick with a pre-populated MW galaxy of settings and characters.
Shepard is clearly surrounded by concrete rubble... Human rubble... Instead of weird alien materials...
I love re-watching these videos every now and then, and I love that there are so many IT Specialists here in the comment section even in 2021. :D
I love how near the end, there are many occasions where he sounds like wrapping things up but always having something more to say
The Tree reflections could easily be explained by the use of an outdoor skybox preset. Since you are only able to see the reflections in freecam mode means it was good piece of lighting but you were never meant to see the reflections being cast on surfaces. Just a thought.
VERY interesting point in 34:55
About that Mako idea? How the tires are represented as circles to the left wall in the Catalyst room...
There is also a fire across the Mako to the right from where Shepard "wakes up" after being hit by the Reaper laser.
The DESTROY option in the Catalyst room also sits to the right from the entrance; interesting, since fire represents destruction and the DESTROY option is lit by a red light.
VERY interesting point in 34:55..
Also, at 39:58, I think Anderson was warning not only Shepard about being controlled, but the player as well.
I can't recall any other cutscene in the series when a character looks straight in the camera lens.
Even though its 2021 and recently bioware mass effect lead writer said this isnt true but loves the theory. I'll still believe In the indoctrination theory, just so the ending isnt so shit in my eyes. Shepard wakes up, takes a breath after this dream or vision, and it's a situation unknown. We dont know the actual outcome of the war or if it's still going.
If you are strong willed like Shepard your headcanon can be whatever you want it to be :)
BW's ending is crap to begin with. Either choose what the IM wants with Control, or fulfill Saren's goal with Synthesis. Destroy's the only option. Apparently we're going back to the Milky Way with ME4. I still believe parts of the IT, while still believing ME4 is just a cash grab since there really isn't much of a story left to tell in the Milky Way if Shep (BW) had to choose an ending. Even if the war was still going on, allied forced are gonna be completely decimated at Earth.
Bioware has never officially denounced it. Not even a lead writer
@@thebk247 Ill just leave this here www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/02/12/bioware-confirms-once-and-for-all-mass-effect-3s-indoctrination-theory-wasnt-true/?sh=33716dde2df9
@@LightsCameraJake yes. One large clickbait title to show that only one ex write commented on it. That same writer wasn’t even a major writer and hasn’t worked for bioware in a long time. BioWare themselves have never made such statements.
I had wondered what would happen if you let the timer count down. Thanks for showing.
Oh my god this is like 50 shades of plausible
Regarding the "listener" references in code, were other dialogs checked for this as well? It's possible Shepard is "always" the listener.
I honestly think they rushed the end and any programmer who rushes makes a lot of mistakes. They didn't have the time to polish the end. To QA all the things you are criticising.
I love the theory but it just misses some really crucial things like if it was a dream, they didn't stop the Reapers and the Reapers won anyway.
@@Shivian124 - The Indoctrination Theory actually *does* cover that by simply explaining "We didn't see the real ending" leaving it open-ended as to what could actually have happened after that ending charge to the beam of light.
Any number of things could've happened during or after all of this being a dream.
That being said, in ME: Andromeda, it's suggested that the Reapers really did win.
Thank you for reuploading this whole theory random stranger. I had no idea of this theory. Truly it is one indefinitely believe. Even after the extended conversations with the Star Child are now long available. This theory makes this ending not feel as empty anymore. The reapers suddenly wanting to make peace I always found odd. But now I know why. And with that explanation the weird dream sequences in the game finally make sense. Without this theory I always thought it was strange like after everything suddenly Shepherd gets PTSD? Never made sense to me. I wish they had hinted at it slightly more strongly at least in the epilogue portion so you could make the wrong choice then realize you made the wrong choice. Although synthesis I am still somewhat ok with only because if it actually does happen and not reapers win indoctrination of shepherd but continue to while the galaxy then I agree. Because I do see the synthetic vs organic conflict being inevitable
none of you ever played the Leviathan DCL?!?
Still not certain how I feel about the indoctrination theory, I really would like to believe it is true and as such we would finally get a 4th instalment to the story that expands on the theory and story so far and adds in the original dark energy concepts to deliver something truely mind blowing or even more games on top.
On a side note we need look no further than Andromeda to see that EA is quite happy to release unpolished barely QA tested games full of sloppy writing 😂 I really hope the ending of the 3rd game wasn’t just some really big heaped steaming plate of turds disguised as story writing.
My first play through I just remember having a lot of "hey, that's weird," moments that made me squint my eyes and tilt my head. Once I got to the final decision I just thought okay cool I'll just go left to right. After choosing the control option and seeing my eyes change I immediately jumped and said oh I got indoctrinated. Then the rest of the ending went on. so I did the synthesis option and saw the same eyes thing, then I did the destroy ending. When I saw the final scene where Shepard breathes I went into full mind blown mode. Just way too many things that can't be explained and I just can't say that it was all lazy writing when up until the run down the hill the game was so masterfully written and well executed. So many articles about how the game was perfect until the final 15 minutes.
This is old and I've watched them all before. I'm under the weather and wanted to re-watch them. That said, whilst I actually agree with you, there there is an inherent and repeated flaw in your logic. You repeatedly draw conclusions from the assumption that the devs worked on the game chronologically. For example, the inconsistency in the background settings pre and post Harbinger beams doesn't mean that the devs purposefully removed items and redesigned it. It could be that they actually created the last scenes first and retouched some of the scenes later but, being under EA time constraints didn't get to add them to all of the scenes. This isn't conclusive but it doesn't appear that you considered this as you consistently fall back to critics claiming "laziness", in reality there could be simpler answers that make more sense given the knowledge that it was rushed and the game isn't created chronologically.
Still love the detail here and, as I said, I actually agree with your theory overall. I just think you've made some logical leaps and discounted alternative possibilities to explain some of the "evidence". If we ever get another ME that is actually worth breaking down I sincerely hope you come carry on this kind of breakdown with that game. I won't hold my breath for another good ME game though :(
Yeah the olympic champion of jumping to conclusions.
That has me cracking up 🤣 “if they fans knew what they were in for” bruh Andromeda? 😆
You'd be surprised how much you can do while injured
Actually the low EMS rating yielding only the destroy ending adds a lot of weight to indoctrination being a process that requires reaper exposure. The ME3 dreams and that final Mass Effect 2 DLC with the death sequence are where the indoctrination procedure occurs. The codex does state slow indoctrination takes time. If Shepard saves the base, indoctrination starts earlier. If Shepard completes the third game too quickly (aka a low EMS score), then there isn't sufficient time to implant the ideas that mislead Saren or TLM.
Shepard has been undergoing the process since Eden Prime.
Right and the reapers try to be careful with how much influence they apply to subjects they try to keep alive like saren. It says in the codex it destroys subjects quickly quickly if direct control is assumed and using Shepard to sabotage the war effort is more valuable than just killing him to them
Hey guys. with Mass Effect 4 coming out I have been watching Old Mass Effect UA-cam videos. and I would like to open up a discussion on something I have noticed, that I think no one else has. If my theory is right... and if the writer of Mass Effect 4 picked up on it. We may yet still see the reapers make a comeback. SO... many people have made videos about the Indoctrination theory. If you don't know what it is I suggest you look it up. Now... I do think this theory is correct when you look at the evidence. That being said, it prompted me to start thinking..."so what if the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 were all in Shepard's head. This means... no matter what option you picked out of the 3, or even the hidden 4th. None of them took effect! why? Because it was in Shepard's head. and following the indoctrination theory, Shepard was knocked cold before entering the beam of light. Thus he never physically started the chain reaction that ends the 3rd game.Now... if Shepard never activated the chain reaction that ended the 3rd game. This means that the Reapers have not gone away. the whole end of the game is still in Shepard's head. Including the final cut scene's. this leaves wiggle room to reintroduce Shepard into Mass Effect at a latter time. We may not see Shepard in Mass Effect 4... but it would make one hell of a plot twist if I am right. Even if I am right Mass Effect 4 can still happen in another far off galaxy. Thus allowing the races in Mass Effect to continue on if we loose the war. But in the end...the war with the Reapers is not yet over.This is the one aspect of the Indoctrination theory that has always been over looked till now. so I ask for feed back on this theory of mine
Couldn't agree more! Do you think they will have import mode again?
Deus ex machina in 3rd game should be reaper bait, its shown in canon that reapers set up tech and that they do absorb knowledge from each harvest, so it's easy to fabricate multi species eons spanning development and it serves to obfuscate real purpose, it's not like they lack time to set it up.
For me milky way is toast no matter what in this cycle, species have chance if they flee elsewhere and bunker down.
destroy ending is canon in Next Mass effect trailer, indoctrination theory only want to show that control, synthesis ending is bad ending
One of the biggest pieces of evidence for me is the cutscenes that play when the Catalyst describes the endings, we see a cutscene of Anderson shooting the canister related to the destroy ending. With the other endings we don't see any other character or anything else. Anderson destroyed the reapers, not Shepard. He never made it to the citadel but Anderson did.
I also think that is true, since in other IT video it was said that when shepard wakes up in the rubble he hears through radio that anderson is on citadel
@@jakub9802 I'm not sure the IT theory is true in its entirety, but there's 100% some deeper meaning to the ending that hasn't been fully revealed.
I don't care what anyone says. There's pieces of the ending that don't make any sense if you discount IT entirely.
- How did Anderson make it to the citadel at all, and if he did how did he 'follow Shepard up' yet somehow end up infront of him? Why would the beam cause two people to end up in different locations? Seems very counter productive if you want to harvest humans to make a reaper, it's a lot more work to move bodies from separate locations.
- Shepard looks dead when they first arrive at the citadel, then Anderson says their name and we hear an odd jolting kind of sound, and they spring back to life. That sound isn't heard anywhere else in the game, what is it and why did it happen here? Someone had to record that audio and add it into the scene, its not there for no reason.
- Shepard suddenly gets the same wound as Anderson after the encounter with TIM, where did this wound come from? Shepard was shot in the shoulder but definitely not in the stomach.
- Shepard once again is clearly dead when the citadel platform raises them up to meet the catalyst. Then the catalyst says the word 'wake' and Shepard is suddenly back to life. Wake sounds an awful lot more like a command then it does the catalyst trying to get Shepard to wake up.
This stuff wasn't added for no reason.
Just finished playing Legendary Edition and thought I’d revisit your videos (very well done btw). What are your thoughts now with the ME4 teaser trailer?
It's cute that he believes that "hundreds of QA testers" had worked on ME3. Fucking precious.
So I guess we will never get that "ending" we were promised?
Mass Effect 4 final battle with Harbinger taking over Illusive Mans final form
Again with the team mates dying thing, I've always gotten my team evaced before the beam hits. And shepherd tells joker to get as far away as he can before they activate the catalyst.
thats after the free dlc. Befor the dlc your team always died on the run to the beam.
I have only seen the extended cut version; do thmy honestly actually only die?? No latter what?? Thats crazy!!
The man in the hallucination after the timer looks more like the illusive man than Anderson and I think that’s what you meant
The proof is in the absence of shepherd's dialogue about the kid throughout the game. He never mentioned him to anyone. shepherd at least subconsciously knew the kid wasn't real and didn't completely trust his own grasp of reality. I still think there is more to this though. We don't know why he was allowed to arrive at the catalyst. Maybe this was a failsafe pit into the reapers programming. We need more information
He *does* mention him though.
I don't remember exactly if he talks about the kid to Liara, after one of the dream sequences, or to Garrus. But at some point he *does* go something like: "There was a young boy back on Earth... could'nt have been more than six or seven. Somehow he didn't make it, while I'm still alive" or something along those lines
What’s the ambient track starting around 16:10?
Thanks for the upload, I said it when bioware signed with EA, it is the rEApers.
Shepard can understand Aliens, because there is a device to allow all aliens understand one another in their own language, if you romance Thane, this is brought up.
It's a translator on the Omni-Tool
It's worth noting that even though Destroy is presented as red renegade, it's on the right side of the platform and it is known that people associate up/right with good and down/right with evil in the same way in which paragon options were the upper ones while the renegade the lower ones.
For the Viper Nebula thing: some systems have more than 1 mass effect relay. Omega had 2 in a shared system for example.
Omega was the ONLY system with 2 relays
It's quite funny. The interview guy basically says "it's false but you can keep thinking this way".
The interview guy was a minor writer with no involvement in the main story
The Mass Relays at the end of ME3 are launching all of their contained energy towards the next one, pulsing (not exploding) and then just falling apart. Makes perfect sense why all but one wouldn't end in a catastrophic explosion. But... all that energy would eventually reach a final Mass Relay, which... should probably explode even worse
Also, the Relay blast definitely did NOT start in the Viper Nebula. Viper is on its own in that arm of the galaxy, but we can see that there's a second cluster RIGHT next to the one that it starts at. That leads to to believe it's either the Ismar Frontier or the Hades Nexus.
The child running through a locked door -> the door is locked because the "un-destroyed" interior is partially loaded and then is re-instanced when the building is destroyed by the reaper.
If the door was open, the player could run through it before the building is destroyed.
Why it doesn't just lock after the kid runs through it? no idea.
I love the indoctrination theory as well and I wish Bioware and EA would have just said "uh, sure, yes, thats exactly what happened", but I think its a prime example of confirmation bias.
A bioware writer, who was heavily involved in the lore, said that the theory is not true. That alone is a heavy hitter.
Concerning that tweet about "starchild is presumed to be a being of light": a lot of producers and writers use uncertain terminology in order to fan the flame of mystery, this is extremely common in the industry. The guy in the video is overthinking the meaning of the word "presumed" to an extreme extent, desperatley trying to convince the audience of his opinion. He also does this when shit-talking the counter-argument regarding planet klencory. He does this a lot in those documentaries.
Also, are there any bioware or EA-people, who have ever confirmed the theory? It seems not, correct me if I'm wrong.
Sadly, it is quite common in the industry that restrictive deadlines and orders from above often cause very bad things to happen. Extreme bugs, having to rewrite lore multipe times to the point where it doesnt make sense anymore, dealing with the consequences of greedy employees who sell leaks to news sites, etc, etc.
We all know of more than enough games/movies/series/etc, that got screwed because of one or multiple of those things.
The Mass Effect trilogy is one of my all-time favorites in gaming and I also wish it would have ended in a better way, but when looking at it objectively without emotions, then deep down we all know it was a big screw-up and not genius writing. If it was genius writing, someone would have claimed credit for it.
We all know that the theory isnt true, but it actually makes no sense and goes against the lore to go against it. I find it very hard to believe that shepard isnt indoctrinated. ME3 should have been more about shepards mental decline, almost like how spec ops the line did things or something along those lines. Another thought, I still dont understand how comments on these videos cling to disprove one point he made, once they disprove it they say the entire theory is wrong. There is more going for the indoctrination theory than goes against it. For me personally, bioware can disprove this but art is meant for interpretation. This is a mere interpretation, and to me this is how the game ends and the series ends.
Personally, even though it hasn't ever been confirmed and it has even been denied (as far as I know, at least), IT is still the thing that makes the most sense. Accepting the ending at face value just doesn't make any kind of logical sense, from any point... and sure, it might be pure lazy writing and extreme pressure that made the whole team go completely stupid.
Still, for me personaly it's a real shame to go through the rilogy, enjoy almost every bit of it, and have it all fall flat on it's face in the last 10 minutes. It is a much more enoyable experience to consider IT as being true and what in fact happened, because it just...
... makes sense, you know?
Who still believes this in 2020? Anyone else? No? Just me then I guess.. 😅
You're not alone. I still firmly believe most of this theory, enough to never be comfortable picking any option other than Destroy.
i still believe it, it makes sense and the fans put more work into coming up with this ending then the devs did
I do. I don't believe that it was debunked because of the extended ending DLC. Even if it somehow was, the IT theory is a much better alternative to taking the ending at face value. So I choose it as my canonical ending.
I only first heard about it recently, but I'm loving the idea and thinking the same... it must be true. Fuck the extended cut.
Ok folks! Looks like my faith has rewarded me!! Who’s seen the new mass effect trailer? IT confirmed!! I’ve been calling it for years!!! I always knew the breath scene would bring a sequel! And here we are friends!! Believing for 8 years was worth it! Where are all the IT debunker hiding now? 😂😂😂
the citadel has an atmosphere lol, but I'm gonna be IT fan till andromeda comes out
Man the backing music is so loud and annoying at times, besides that great docos though but yeh that music just makes it hard to hear what you’re saying at times
Music at 16:45 is Levitate by Zallex
That yellow and black on your armor looks really good
Turned out it was just a few cutscenes and a coat of paint.
I found one glitch when you go see Ashley in the hospital their is a doctor who walks through a door..
Imo the relay explosion map is the biggest piece of evidence that the ending is occurring in Shepard's head, not in the game reality. While its small, it does prove great attention to detail by the staff and a deliberately impossible end state. If the dev team was lazy or bad, the map wouldn't match the relay positioning and the explosions would start from wherever. If the ending were real, it'd originate from the sol relay. Instead of these more likely scenarios, the dev team took the time to make a perfect map of the relays and start the explosions from the one relay that couldn't possibly explode. The odds of that happening by chance are too low for me to accept anything but indoctrination theory, no matter what the dev team says.
the original channel was deleted because he left the music in video too loud.
DetectiveZoidberg Can you send a link to this forum.I would really like to read it.
DetectiveZoidberg Thanks :)
DetectiveZoidberg It´s not working.But Thanks anyway.
And the channel is gone again. So my views are yours once more.
Music credits?
You give me peace. Thank you.
Being of light seem like prothean VI, we even see tomb in second game.
What person make of construct depends upon that person, their intellect, knowledge and experience.
We got hanar on citadel that have faith in prothean, we got asari race that before advancement see prothean in terms of faith.
34:00 Am I indoctrinated or I remember a scene where one of the squadmate was wounded and the other one helps him retreat to the Normandy under Shepard's order?
petargrad
Yes, I know, I watched the video about the DLC :)... I actually thought it was in the main game! I can't imagine the game without that tipe of "closure" with the other characters...
That scene comes from the extended cut. This is an old, OLD video from before that. You'd only see the original ending if you played during the first few months of release or put in a hardcopy and didn't update it. You're not crazy, that scene just wasn't in the game at release.
We thought they were geniuses... but they were just clowns all along. Even a clown can seem brilliant before you realize that he was just making a joke.
So if Shepards unconscious and can't get to the crucible yet hallucinated the whole ending including the extended cut just from Harbingers beam?
Nope id like to think that your squadmates finished the job for shepard especially garrus. Got to the crucible than kill TIM, harbinger, and the other reapers...or was it all of them, and maybe most are just disabled considering the dead reaper in mass effect 2 still could indoctrinate the scientists so everyones probably contaminated so everyone probably died anyway, and the reapers won.
Finish what job, the ending is silly no matter how you spin it, its dumb.
Yeah, lets totally build that thingy that we know nothing about, what that is, how it works or what it does, because some lackluster data shows that species from cycles before tried to develop and build it, nope, it cannot be that after harvest reapers left bait, adding distinct quirks from each consecutive harvest, it's not like they do set up tech to be found, no sir, this cannot be bait or doomsday device that will help with their goals.
The only sensible thing was done by initiative, run.
Milky way is toast no matter what player do, it's more of how much more will follow initiative, how thorough tracks will be cleansed and how clues for others emerging in next cycle will be left.
Current species have no chance to fight back invasion. What happen in 3rd seem like misdirection effort to allow escape and to erase data tracks of arks.
I think that is actually the point of the ending of this trilogy. The galaxy ultimately failed. You are choosing to die continuing to fight or die by submitting.
+Tyler Hansen why is there no sound?
Sean Rawlinson Something's wrong with your computer?
Anyone know the name of the song at 1:09:47
jesus that music why
@1:10:10 “That time he had a helmet on, and he wasn’t even injured”.
Proceeds to show Shepard’s back get absolutely obliterated against the wall.
He even did a little ragdoll for a second
On that note, Shepherd would have become a stain after the citadel explosion
okay, someone please explain IF the indoctrination theory is correct, what happened if i chose to destroy the Reapers? i get that Shepard lives, but are the Reapers really destroyed or are they still atomizing everything they come in contact with and i just wasted all that time.
If you choose destroy, then Shepard lives. He won the battle for his mind (because, according to the IT, the ending happened in Shepard's head). So, because it was a dream, reapers are still alive and the struggle continues.
Back then it was basically to say Shepard wakes up from his indoctrination attempt then goes up the beam and destroys the reapers. Based on the new trailer it does look like the destroy ending is the canonized ending so IT could still be true but it'll be very unimpactful to the new game as it was merely a small moment in Shepards life. We may never ever get an official explanation to what happened at the end of ME3
His name was Marauder Shields
1:17:50 i like how the hype music starts when talking about how EA loves money.
I think the first time the Reapers tried to indoctrinate Shepard is when you first killed Saren
After watching these videos for several days one of the things I have an issue with is him determination of Mike Gambles speech at the end of the video.
"Prescriptive" does not mean "give you information before it should be available". It means they dont want to impose the correct answer onto people.
Also his speech and body language in saying "first off it illustrates the commitment of the fan base" was most clearly reflecting on the surprise of seeing how the fans manipulated and fashioned the story to their own liking. It was an undertone of shock. Meaning they didn't expect fans to take it to this level.
I wish that fans guessing the ending to something didn’t effect the creators from their original story, it happens so many times it’s sad.
Problem is with them making mass effect 4 now is they HAVE to make one of the 3 endings canon. most likely it's going to be the destroy ending that's canon.
@@sumireravenclaw8034 true, unless they somehow retcon the ending to Mass Effect 3. But I don’t think they would be able to pull it off.
@@snakeEyedPirate Another option might be fully embracing this theory. The dev's have declared that it's entirely false, or at least entirely non intentional; still they liked it. Wouldn't even require so much retconning, simply watching at all the facts and say "Yeah this make much more sense" and use this going forward.
Of course that would leave the TRUE ending completely unkown. We would known what happened in Shepard's head, but nothing regarding the actual state of the war. Wich means they could go whatever direction they prefer.
Maybe the war is somehow still ongoing and the Reapers will still be our main villains.
Or maybe the war was won by some plot devices, the conflict reached a resolution and we get a new conflict.
As far as wich ending gets canonized (Destroy, Control, Synthesis)... the only thing it would change in that scenario would be if Shepard ever got fully indoctrinated, or he managed to resist and keep fighting the Reapers until the end.
If ME4 ever allows the importing of the OT saves, that decision could mean different details in the universe while we get the navigate them and discovered them while playing as a new protagonist. Even maybe a protagonist from different playable races...? That would be cool.
@@sumireravenclaw8034 Destroy would have always been canon. If your EMS isnt high enough it is the only option. If your EMS is max, you get the real Destroy ending. Destroy was the motive all 3 games and you united the galaxy under that single purpose. Now way a change of mind in the last 10 minutes is canon.
@@alphamorion4314 Chris Hepler is not a Dev. He was a minor write that had no involvement in the main story. He also hasnt worked for Bioware since 2013.
Ok, kind of late here. But question about the theory... if the ending was all in Shepard's mind then where was he really? Was he dead after the blast? Just somewhere else completely?
+Michael Honscar , he was partially buried by the rubble knocked up by the Harbingers laser beam that IT theory believes kicks off the indoctrination effect, the rest of the sequence played out in his head as he tries to fight it off. The destruction ending, when you wake back up in that rubble is the one where you successfully fight off the indoctrination attempt.
So the game endings are all dreams and the fight is still going? If Shepard resisted the indoctrination attempt, wouldn't Harbinger just kill him? They didn't have anything that could stop Harbinger there did they?
considering how buried in rubble he was, they probably thought they had killed him
It is known that the Citadel uses mass effect fields to hold onto an atmosphere. Turians use the same technology to keep an atmosphere on Menae so it isn't that far-fetched that an atmosphere is present under a mass effect field in the ending.
Or its just a huge screen translating the picture from the cameras outside
I finished the trilogt and rewatched the ending pre patch and it was so bare bones. I think people were really digging too deep, finding patterns cause they wanted to see a pattern. My thoery is that since the og ending was scrapped they needed to think of something quick to fill it. Not saying the writers are bad or were lazy (though it ciuld have been so much better) it was most likely a time crunch issue with ea breathing down their necks.
The hologram of Harbinger in the Arrival DLC isn't even real all in your head
Mystery of the gun answer makes no sense at 55:30. Believable design oversights are one thing... picking up another character's gun and then having it magically transform into something else as soon as it's hit by another object isn't an oversight in the slightest. Very intentional.
It is an oversight. This very same thing happens in Mass Effect 2 for a renegade interrupt.
Spoiler Alert: The kid is the Clark Kent of Mass Effect
And here we are in november 2023 after ME: Andromeda with a trailer of possibly another Shepherd game. And the worst part about all this is that they said they weren't smart enough to come up with this instead of just rolling with it.
I never got what the point of the crucible was when to use part of it, you shoot a tube
The destroy ending wasn’t the intended effect of the crucible. Or at least that’s how it seems. It’s a fuck you to the synthesis and control endings which both keep the reapers alive in some form
I know I'm wasting my time by being the 389th comment on an 8 year old video that isn't even uploaded on the original channel, but for arguments sake,
The "hallucination" from the failure of arrival isn't a hallucination, it's just how things unfold. You've failed, you're seeing the results of failing in a ten second snippet.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Still support the theory.
49:42 we actually have seen it before when the Normandy SR1 was destroyed in the Cockpit forcefields were keeping Joker alive.
Yeah, most likely if you are in/on a man made structure in space that has gravity it most likely has an atmosphere as well.
What about the Leviathan? I have the ideia the child say that the Leviathan created him/they?! (have to play again the ending :p)
By the way, with BioWare backing up this theory in ME4 or not, the documentaries are great work man!!!
One point I can't stand when it comes to the reentry point is that you can't actually go fast enough to burn up just by falling, terminal velocity is nowhere near the speed necessary for that. The reason things like spacecraft and meteors burn up on reentry is because they're already going many times faster than terminal falling velocity. Somewhere between 15 and 100 times faster, in fact.
Yep. I learned about that stuff when I learned about the SR-71 Blackbird when I was a kid. The Airforce came up with an aircraft that was rocket propelled and it could move so fast that the heat gained from the airs friction was what was causing the aircraft to ignite. I believe you have to at least be going Mac 10 at around 80,000 ft to be able to catch on fire and the more you fall the thicker the air gets so the easier it is to create that heat and pressure.