OK let’s clear a few things up. FIRSTLY there are two basic lithium chemistries that are relevant here: “Lithium-Ion” (aka Li-on, LMC etc). These are the kind we find in our phones, laptops and until recently EVs. They have very high energy density but also not the best safety, and can be prone to thermal runaway if not well managed. The results of this can be deadly. These should never be used in off-grid storage situations due to the inherent safety issues. Then there is Lithium Iron Phosphate (aka “LFP’, “LiFePO4”). These have slightly lower energy density, but hugely better safety. They are unllikely to explode or catch fire even in extreme conditions. They are considered safe for off grid storage including in vehicles and boats and are the only lithium chemistry that should be used. These are likely the type you have. THEN there are three basic different cell types: Cylindrical (like AA batteries but larger), pouch (like what we have in phones, not well protected) and Prismatic (rectangular, housed in a pretty sturdy metal shell, or very sturdy plastic shell). LFP can come in all types but they’re most commonly found as prismatic, and rarely pouch form. There’s no reason to favour cylindrical cells for mobile use, in fact prismatic will be more space-efficient. I would avoid the pouch style. Batteries made from Prismatic cells should however be put together in a way that holds the cells together to stop them from swelling during charging. Some manufacturers don’t do this, which is likely the issue you’ve experienced. We build these packs and always use a robust clamping system to keep the individual cells clamped snuggly together so they don’t swell. Doing this completely removes any visible swelling and is very important. Without this clamping, the swelling of the cells causes significant physical movement inside the cells which can accelerate wear inside the cells (reducing life span). This is the main concern, and isn’t a safety issue. Under extreme circumstances, if the cells are over-discharged and over-charged frequently, this swelling can get extreme and *could* result in more sever physical damage inside the cells which might eventually cause a short condition, which would obviously not be great. Even then they are unlikely to combust though. The biggest danger would be off-gassing of noxious fumes. In summary, yes buy-cheap, buy-twice, but the problem is not the lack of cylindrical cells (which have their own drawbacks), but rather the battery packs were not constructed with adequate consideration to swelling and prevention thereof. Better quality manufacturers will always cover this and so it won’t be an issue.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Also thanks for the other information. In your opinion would you be happy to continue using my old batteries in the condition they were?
@@lifebeyondbricks We actually build LFP batteries, as well as installing them along with solar in Camper vans and off grid situations. That said, without knowing more about exactly what kind of cells and BMS are inside, and how you’ve been charging them, I probably wouldn’t. I also noted someone else commented about your charger not being suitable. I don’t know the details of that charger but it could well be the case. It’s really important with LFP that they’re not over charged. Most lead acid chargers/settings WILL overcharge LFP on a normal lead acid settings. Even if the absorption voltage is OK (up to 14.4v can be ok, but 14.2v or even 14.0 is preferable for most batteries and situations), the float voltage is usually too high. Anything higher than 13.5v is not ok, but float off, or at 13.4v is better. A higher float charge will continually force more current into the cells at a higher voltage than they like to be at when full, which will reduce their lifespan considerably if this is done regularly, and may even affect their capacity. Charger choice is not as simple as plug-np-lay, as some LFP vendors would like to have you believe. Victron chargers are good IF they’re set to LFP profile, or setup manually with appropriate settings. Charging with a normal lead acid charger can be fine IF the charge is terminated (manually or by other means) when the cells reach 14.0v or so.
@@RollingHousesUK I think it is a clear case of over charging from the description of the lights cycling bright and dim when full. The batteries had a cheap BMS that took the cells right to the 14.6v limit and then had almost no hysteresis hence the continuous cycling. The batteries were sold back then as ‘drop in replacements’ for lead acid which they absolutely were not. They were built to get the absolute max capacity from the cells so they could be advertised as a high capacity for the smallest cell size. I find 14v is quite adequate as a cut off point sacrificing almost no capacity loss but not pushing the boundaries. 3.4v balance start with 5mv balance precision and enable balance when not charging also gives plenty of time for the balancer to do its job.
A lithium battery BMS should only be used as a safety back up and never used to control regular charging. Standard settings on a BMS will normally be set at the battery’s extreme charge/discharge limits to protect it if there is a system failure that could damage the battery. These settings should not be used for daily charging/discharging limits as they will stress the battery and shorten its lifespan. A good quality lithium charger factory set for your battery chemistry is required. Having said that people with the correct knowledge and equipment can use the BMS to control the charger .
photovoltaic/solar thermal technician here: all swollen batteries can be caused by overcharging, manufacturer defect, deep discharge, or damage to the battery... (dry cell, lead acid, lithium, etc) always found it fascinating why my AA or AAA batteries would swell, leak, corrode but after cleaning them up would still work. yep i was 12 yrs old at the time. Soylent Green movie peaked my interest when i saw the stationary bike recharge a battery. plus when my car battery would die but able to bump start the car, good 'ol standard transmission. anyway just take it back and either they replace it or they give you a discount. i do install lithium batteries but i prefer lead acid, maybe because i like to do my own maintenance. lithium does have an advantage in an rv but you can install a deep cycle lead acid battery in a spot that has plenty on ventilation. in a home i recommend lead acid but nowadays everyone wants lithium but complain about the up front cost even when they've come down in price.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Unfortunately the Batteries were out of warranty and I didn't particularly want the same ones back even if they were discounted. I agree good quality Lead based batteries are still relevant technology and if it was not for the weight vs energy density we would probably still use them, Our RV needs to be within 4.25 tonnes and we already run at 4 tonnes so similar energy capacity with lead Chemistry would eat into that weight.
Those existing batteries can be either prismatic (big blue cased ones) or pouch cell based ones (or cylindrical but I doubt it). I heard you mentioning using the existing charger. If thats an Schaudt EBL, that might have caused the swelling issue. Those are not suitable for Lithium, since they have a 16-hour period of 14.4V and a float of 13.8v, which both will overcharge the battery if this is used frequently. For optimal lifetime use 14.0-14.2V for absorbtion (so it will balance) and use 13.5V for float. The new battery is most likely a prismatic based one, also not cylindrical. Cylindrical has some benefits (higher discharge, better thermal stability and less swelling) but for RV usage that doesn't really matter that much. Primatic offers a better weight/capacity ratio and is the most used version nowadays. As for the app: I personally like the Liontron Multi app, or the AOLithium app. Those are more user-friendly, the 'old' xiaoxiang app is more towards the more technical experienced users, those other apps have a more clear basic info overview.
well said, charger choice is very important and is often overlooked, not least because the cheaper drop-in lithium vendors misleadingly suggest any normal lead acid charger can be used.
Thanks for watching and commenting, The charger in our motorhome is the Nordelettronica NE237 but I imagine the charging profiles are the same as the Schaudt unit (We now use a Victron charger for this reason). It is interesting that most companies that sell Lithiums with internal BMS's tell you that no hardware changes are required in the vehicle, which may be correct as long as the BMS is of decent quality, which I have now learnt the hard/expensive way. Thanks for the advice on the Apps, I will try the other 2 you suggested.
@@lifebeyondbricks It’s not even really correct. It depends on what equipment you have of course, but most lead acid equipment is not suitable for everyday LFP charging for one reason or another, even if it may be OK to use it as a manual, one-off charge source if you know how to avoid the pitfalls. The reason they say it’s fine, of course is to make their product appeal to as many people as possible.
Reading the manual on his Nordelettronica NE237 charger, it is definitely the reason these batteries are now toast... however he did not say he was having any issues with their capacity. You must read the spec's on chargers even marketed for LFP batteries. Being in Canada, I know of a popular American RV charger brand who came out with a "LiFePO4 rated" charger, but it put out a constant 14.6V forever! They later came out with a 2-stage version with a Float mode, but it still stays in absorption far too long for my liking.
@@brucehislop8860 Agree. Manual says 14.4/13.8V in GEL mode, but it doesn't say anything about the absorbtion period of the 14.4V. (Probably too long). Also, 13.8V is too high for Lithium.
Well explained John, I hope they gave you a good discount given the amount of kit they have given away to other UA-camrs. I'd like Lithium in the new van when it finally comes but I can't justify the cost so will have to make do with a better MPPT and second AGM. Cheers K.
Thanks, yes they did give us a discount which we were very pleased about because they aren’t cheap, but I suppose we have learned the hard way to pay a bit more for something that is good quality. Yeah AGM’s are still good and if you can get a bit more efficiency from your solar that should keep you topped up.
If Lifepo4 cells are not charged properly or kept at a high state of charge, the new ones won’t last any longer. Unlike lead acid batteries lithium doesn’t do well to be held at full charge. Older lithium/RV chargers and inverter chargers would charge to 14.4 volts and hold it there (indefinite “float”). Charge them to 14.4 and it’s done-stop! If you’re planning on needing battery power, let them drop to 13.6 before it charges back up. Long term storage/ off season 13.3 is great. Cycling lithiums is great. You will run out of calendar life before cycle life. Most newer lithium inverters/chargers have the right charge profile but many of the original RV “converter” manufacturers still got it wrong. They think all they got to do is tweak and rebadge their old machines.
Thanks for watching and commenting, The EcoTree batteries will not allow themselves to be overcharged the internal BMS's seem to control this a lot better than the old non-branded batteries. The biggest issue with the suppliers of a lot of the cheaper LFP RV batteries is they market them as drop in replacements which alot of them are not and need close charging control to stop overcharge conditions. That said I have changed the charging profiles for the new batteries so when we have shore power for long periods of time the batteries sit at 80% charged and the charger will keep them there no matter what, will only then charge back to 100% if we are going to be of grid for any length of time.
You actually described exactly what the problem is: you have been chronically over charging them. When sold that sort of battery was sold as a ‘drop in replacement’ for lead acid and they simply weren’t. They had a BMS that was basically a last ditch protection and you drove them right up against the buffers which is why you were seeing the brightening and dimming of lights when full. They were never suitable as drop ins and needed to have a tightly controlled charging regime. The manufacturers of the cells give very clear guidance as to what the cells like but the battery assemblers were more keen to advertise the batteries in a way to sell them to as many as possible using the ‘drop in’ claims on batteries simply not suitable without additional equipment. They had to get the most power into the batteries in order to be able to claim the capacity they did. I would strongly advise that you set up the BMS in your new ones to actually look after the cells properly by cutting charge before the batteries are right at their limit.A cutoff of 14v works well with a cut back in of 13.5v, this avoids pushing the envelope and gives reasonable hysteresis. There is a very good chance that your old batteries are in fact fine but with just a bit of lost capacity. Batteries taken right to the limit do swell and.others have had it happen and it has always been down to overcharging but in most cases, with much more severe swelling than you have seen, the performance has still remained good. The prismatic Cells are actually remarkably robust if that is what it has and even the pouch cells are fairly forgiving and neither will burst into flames.
I should also have mentioned that with the JBD BMS that your new batteries has a balance start of 3.4v, balance precision of 5mv works well and also turn off the ‘balance only when charging switch’ this gives plenty of balance time at the lower cut off voltage.
Thanks for watching and commenting, I agree and now realise that all LFP batteries and BMS's are not equal, maybe I shouldn't have believed the marketing BS although the place that supplied/installed them obviously didn't understand fully how they worked either otherwise they wouldn't of set them up with all the original hardware in the vehicle. Every day is a school day I suppose and I understand a lot more about the batteries than I did before.
I would have a look in the old batteries , they are probably fine . The swelling you speak of occurs in the other direction from what you experienced . It's more likely the foam around the cells pushing on the plastic. Cut the top and have a look , you can buy a new case for cheap if the cells are good .
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yes, that is the next thing to do, I would like to do a capacity test to see if there is any indication of a damaged cell and then take them apart.
Great video John, I am seriously thinking of replacing my two AGMs for the Eco Tree seat base lithium, it will be increasing to see how you get on with it 👍👍👍👍
Thanks for watching and commenting, I am already well happy with the new battery much prefer having a reputable brand with long warranty and very good backup from EcoTree. The new battery does not allow itself to be overcharged which I assume was the problem with the old batteries.
It's LiFePo4? No worries about the safety. They are /very/ hard to get to catch fire, even if you impale them and short them out. They have immensely stable chemistry.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Agree good quality LFP chemistry batteries are very robust and unlikely to catch fire, however, there are plenty of poorly constructed LFP batteries out there as well that are not as safe, my old batteries were always an unknown quantity to me, I am looking forward to striping the old batteries to see what has happened and to see what sort of quality they are.
Thanks for watching and commenting, At the moment we are using the Victron Orion smart 30amp charger (which replaces the split charger), I will be experimenting with other charging systems in the future so watch this space. Ultimately the Ecotree Batteries are designed to be a straight swap for your original leisure battery so you shouldn't need any other hardware to start you off, there are benefits to fitting larger chargers like what we have as it means you can quickly replace the power you use from the battery but it is not essential.
Thanks for watching and commenting, No I didn't show the inverter as it was under drivers seat but it wasn't a Victron unit as we couldn't afford it at the time, instead it was a cheap-ish Giandel inverter that had started making a abnormal whirring noise when first turned on so we have now replaced with Renogy 2000watt which has been fine so far.
When you buy something you should know the warrenty period. And cheaper products usually only have the legally required warrenty period (2 years). So you shouldve known that after 3 years you were out of warrenty.
Thanks, For us lithiums have been a game changer, even the old "cheapy" ones haven't missed a beat till now, huge capacity and much lower weight when compared to Lead/AGM's. The Ecotree battery we went for has 30ah more capacity than the old ones in a smaller package.
Cheaper lithium batteries are constructed with foam padding blocks around the internal battery packs, so if swelling is visible from the outside, the batteries are probably allot more blown than the casing indicates.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yes, hence why I was so keen to get them replaced as soon as possible, I will hopefully do a tear down video with them soon.
@@lifebeyondbricks I watched a similar video only yesterday demonstrating the same kind of cheap nasty (often unsafe) battery construction. Looks like the battery's they've hooked you up with, should outlast the vehicle. Yeah I look forward to you tearing the old ones down. I caution you not to leave it too long though, you are after all sitting on a couple of potential time bombs! 😉
@@Zodliness I am much happier with the new Battery from EcoTree as they are tried and tested, my old unbranded batteries were always an unknown to me and wanted to get them replaced anyway (knowing what I know now I should never have believed the company that sold them to me but I suppose you live and learn). Yes, I need to find a safe area to get them discharged fully and then I can hopefully very carefully take them apart.
Hi. You’re not actually correct about the cell safety. Prismatic and cylindrical cells are used in auto applications. It’s down to how the cells/batteries are managed by the electronics (low temp cut off/ heating) and packaged into the structure of the vehicle or in this case a battery box regarding vibration and thermal management. Also the quality of the cell manufacturing process.
That’s a bit of a pain, however you have two warranties the manufacturers or more to the point the retailer and what a lot of people don’t seem to realise the warranty under the sale of goods act. It state that what you buy must be fit for purpose and last a reasonable period of time. In your case a lithium should last a site more than 2 years. My advice would be to go back to the retailer with this info, and ask for a reasonable settlement or you’ll take the matter further. You will need a report on the batteries condition and why the batteries started to swell up to prove the were not fit for purpose. I was able to do this some years ago with a faulty dometic refrigerator and whilst the manufacturer wouldn’t entertain it the dealer Lowdham Leisureworld agreed to replace the faulty evaporator.
@@wobby1516 if your system can work with a higher voltage I would go with some server rack batttiers. Eg4 is a good brand but trophy battery is pretty nice also. The channel "DIY solar" did a nice review on the trophy battery which comes with internal heaters and cold weather protection for charging.
I'm concerned about the swelling on those batteries, I know you swapped them out, but lithium fires are very fierce, very toxic and hard to extinguish. If they distort and short internally they heat very fast and catch fire in a short time. Be interesting to know how widespread that problem is.
Thanks for watching and commenting, yes, the swelling was certainly a concern which is why we replaced them ASAP. If they are LiFePo4 as labelled then they would be very unlikely to catch fire but better to be safe than sorry.
@@lifebeyondbricks thermal runaway also happens in LiFePO4 batteries , remember the VW boat that sank? Biggest issue, you cannot extinguish it as it produces its own oxygen. See AutoExpert John Cadogan latest video and his other ones. Buying cheap lithium is far too consequential to do
I would be willing to bet that if you cut the top off your old battery and opened your new battery - they have the same cells. I think others have said that over charging might be what caused the swelling - they still should be fine though. I’d cut the top off and make sure they just swelled up and then wire them in parallel with your new battery. The lifepo4 chemistry should be fine. I have 15,300 watts on my coach and have found 3.45v per cell should be used to charge (27.6v for me) and use 3.337v per cell (26.7v for me) for float/storage. Anything higher is unnecessary (look at a charge curve). Mine rest around 3.337v after charging up to 3.45v. Then if my coach calls for any amps, the charger provides it while the battery continues to sit idle.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yes you are probably right about the cells, at least my new battery can be easily taken apart (no cutting plastic cases). When you spend a bit more I think the money is in the overall build quality and the BMS. Our charging profile is set very similar now, batteries sit idle at 80% when on hookup for any length of time and the charger just makes up the load that is used.
Thanks for watching and commenting, I agree. We have never over discharged our old units but fear they might have overcharged at some point, I will be changing some of the hardware to reduce the chances of this happening again.
I'd be looking very carefully and triple checking at your charge and discharge max and min voltages and also fitting a thermometer in the batt compartment so you can check how cold the batteries are getting - it's not heat that kills them it's cold. Sadly looks like the cheap batts did not have a temperature cutoff or not a very good BMS and could not protect themselves.
Thanks for watching and commenting, low battery temp is not an issue for us as the batteries are inside the vehicle and we live in it full time so internal temperature and batteries never fall below 15 degrees Celsius. Yes I am looking more closely at max and min voltages now even though the BMS on the new battery is really good, I agree the old batteries BMS probably isn't great so I am looking forward to pulling them apart and having a look.
Agree, the lead carbons are impressive along with their warranty, our only issue with these in a motorhome is the weight and size, to get anywhere close to 230Ah I would need LDC12-245 and that weighs in @64kg.
Hi John just a quick one what voltage does the charger that the van come with as that might be the reason the battery expanded because my van pumps 15.5 volt now and then as it matins the battery health but lithium does not like that at all and would not like above 14.2v to 14.4 your victron would be fine but the other one would be the problem
Thanks for watching and commenting, the onboard charger would do about 14.7 on bulk set to AGM profile which is what the company that supplied the old Lithiums said it should be on, I think that is still too high though. I have been using a Victron charger set to lifePo4 for the last year so shouldn't of been that.
@@lifebeyondbricks I assume the victron is connected to solar so lifepo setting is fine for that but that doesn't stop the rv converter from overcharging
@@bryanspears2045 No we don't really use the original charger now, we have Victron for shore power, solar, and engine charging. The new battery doesn't allow the LFP cells to be overcharged either, so should all be fine now.
Well at least you’re the person to recognise where there is a potential problem. I must say I am in awe of your ability to explain the situation to people. I am curious as to what you were going to eat, the smoke was a bit worrying though. Maybe an excuse to eat out! Hope you’re having a great Xmas.
Ah thank you, the old batteries would probably have been fine for ages but just cannot take the risk as it is our full time home and the cats are in there while we are away from the van hence the Wi-Fi cameras and temperature sensors as a sort of early warning system, but I must say the new battery is a beast and I am well happy with it so far.
The cells in that battery are prismatic, not cylindrical. (According to the datasheet) . Most (not all) cylindrical cells are Nickel based. Higher energy density, so lighter, but ...... Higher energy density! so slightly more volatile (hence the undeserved reputation of "lithium cells catch fire!!") . These are Square section (hence "prismatic") Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) cells, slightly heavier, but arguably more stable.
Well, it was either watch you or watch Call The Midwife :-) Joking aside, great info, I wouldn't have been happy with the batteries in that state. It would have always been on your mind and better safe than sorry.
Thanks m8, I probably would have gone for call the Midwife 😂😂. Yes when it is our only home and the cats are in there all the time it is not worth running the risk. On the bright side we now have another 30ah as well... enough for another 30 episodes of Call the Midwife 😜
Nicely explained Jon, have to admit Lithium is a want but not need for me, don’t use enough 230v to warrant an inverter and pretty much everything is usb these days so my 2x Agm cope ok, that said living in a van is obviously way different than weekends and 3 full weeks…. I do like the look of the shaped battery design for under the seat though. Cheers for uploading 👍
Yes they are a game changer when you live in a van, but AGM’s are still reliable technology. Eco tree’s underseat battery is a great bit of design as it is a commonly unused space.
Thanks for watching and commenting, agreed, although thermal runaway in LiFePo4 Leisure batteries is extremely rare. swelling of the cells occurs first in an overcharge scenario which is why it is important to always monitor and visually check your electrical system, As a result of our issues and some further testing I found that the unbranded battery BMS were not always protecting the cells as they should of. The solar controller charge profile was also incorrectly set which should of been the first line of defence (The system was installed before we purchased the van)
@@lifebeyondbricks would be interesting to see please do video, I would definatly check all your charging voltages on your rig to make sure they are not to high , i imagine that replacment battery was not cheap dont want to damage it.
@@andrewbrown6705 Yeah will do, might be a few weeks before I have time to take them apart. You are right though the new batteries were not cheap, so will check to make sure nothing is over charging them.
Pouch cells Like a ..... Pouch of say soup from the supermarket. . Prismatic cells. Similar material, wound flat into a 20-25mm thick "book shape" with a metal case for each cell. . These two form factors are the normal choice for LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) cells. . Cylindrical. Normally Nickel based higher energy cells. (NMC, NCA, etc) Typically 18650 (18mm dia by 65mm tall). Or 2170 (21mm by 70mn tall) Or now, the latest form 4680 (46 dia by 80 tall) (AKA the Tesla cell) . The old batteries may have been pouch (but probably Prismatic) The Eco Tree battery definitely uses Prismatic LiFePo4 cells.
in EV they have massive discharge rates like 5-10C 100-300 kilowatts... yes cooling is an issue... Solar set up are fraction C. they don't charge to 80% in 15 minutes
As soon as I noticed the swelling I put a temp sensors on the batteries and monitored the temperatures like a hawk, I can remove the 2 batteries as a module in seconds (providing they were not on fire of course), Which is why I was so keen to get them replaced ASAP.
@@davidrobertson5700 LiFePO4 batteries like that don’t suffer thermal runaway. It’s the ternary lithium as used in almost all cars, phones, laptops and consumer goods that suffer from that. There are many demonstrations on UA-cam comparing the safety of the two types.
@@philbrooke-little7082 do the batteries contain lithium ? Yes. Is lithium dangerous ? Yes Do you have to be picky ? No but you love to pipe up as that is the only way you can be significant. Ta ta
@@davidrobertson5700 well done you have just demonstrated an excellent ignorance of chemistry and specifically that of lithium and its compounds and a remarkable ability to generalise given that ignorance. Lead batteries of course are so benign being full of poisonous lead, strong acid and explosive gas.Ta ta indeed.
@@lifebeyondbricks Any fire can be put out if you know how to handle it correctly, remember the fire traingle. Heat, Oxygen and feul. If you remove ethier of these elemnts, the fire will die out. chemical fires like batteries usually require smothering or "cutting off the oxygen supply to the fire, usually something co2 or otherwise made to dstarve the fire of oxygen depervatio. Ive had fires, lithuim, lead acid, the works. you'd all be surprise how effective just a simple co2 extingerier is on them. Ive never had a battery fire last more then mear seconds. Back befoe I started sealing packs in metal cans. (if anything happens the box just get hots, no more fires for me.
Pretty sure this is user error. Don't recharge or discharge them when they're frozen, Don't over charge them, don't let them overheat, and don't charge/discharge them too quickly, and they will not swell.
The battery BMS shouldn't be what is ending the charging. That is only a last resort protection. The parameters of the charge control unit should be set to finish charging somewhere between 13.8 to 14 volts.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yes I agree with that as a general rule but I have found there are huge differences in the BMS's when it comes to input voltages and charging especially when you take internal cell balancing into account. We never had any battery specification info given with the old batteries we were told to use an AGM charging profile which most would be considered too higher voltage for lithiums. We used Victrons lifePo4 preset charging settings for the old batteries and they would never get past 75% charged and were probably never entering balancing state, On a AGM preset was the only time you could ever get them fully charged. The BMS on the Eco tree lithuims seems much better but I suppose that is where the extra money is, even these don't cell balance until 14.2 volts though.
Ceasing charge based on a voltage is a great way to abuse the cells - Li chemistry cells need to managed by a BMS that is able to monitor and cease charge based in tail current, not terminal voltage.
Our old batteries are not Ecotree. They are unbranded ones we got from Solar Solutions, 3 years ago and sadly, they only carry a 2 year warranty. That being said, we are happy to move to Ecotree because we know how good they are, Tash has had one for over a year in her T5! Thanks for watching 🎄
@@lifebeyondbricks Okay--thank you--I understand clearly now. You made a very nice video. I hope that the new battery set-up works well for you! Best wishes!
Hey Bruce, Seasons greetings to you. Yes hopefully I will do, might need to enlist the help of someone who knows what they are doing, someone that has built their own lithiums, and that maybe has an air fryer 😂😂😂
Thanks for watching and commenting, Nah the missus was fine with it, any battery swelling indicates a fault within the battery so it's better to be safe than sorry.
As I said before..? Those batteries are GOOD, No, great,!!! BUT until winter comes..? Count how many video's on youtube are complaining about Lithiam in cold winter, then count the amount about AGM.(0) no one has grasped the fact that lithium has to be kept warm to charged and work like they should.. if not they fail.. Keep warm you 2.. Merry all that bumfff.. XX
Hi Womble Seasons greetings to you too. To be fair our old lithiums would never have got too cold as they are inside the van and our heating is never off. I have a feeling that the BMS (battery management system) in the old batteries was allowing them to overcharge which won't be a problem with the new one as the BMS is much more robust and it has heater matts built in, however, this function will not be required for us as again they will always be kept at the same temperature as us squiggy humans.
Hi ya Roger.. Yep most lithiam have a low temp disconnect, that is what stops them charging, unless you have a heated mat inside the battery you will run out of power. That's what every one is on about.. Get a heated mat under them.. Cheers
@@lifebeyondbricks agreed Shouldn't be an issue if it's not below zero inside your van and if anyone was regularly dealing with those temps then get them insulated and heating mats.
I have (6) lifepo4 200AH batteries in parallel at my off grid camp (travel trailer). We camp in the winter and have yet to have an issue with temperature. The batteries offer power to a bit below zero deg F so when I arrive Since the temp has always been above that I heat the trailer no problem. In short time the batteries warm up and will take a charge. I honestly can't say that the batteries reported being below 30 degrees F yet though. I'm sure they have been and this could be a short term issue but easily remedied if needed. I'm 1.5 years in with them and love everything about them, cost aside of course.
Your batteries were most likely overcharged by typical motorhome electronics. If the battery management , BMS, is terminating the charge process its a sure sign the existing charge profile is not correct. Keeping a lithium battery at a high charge voltage causes damage and reduces battery life. With the relatively low charge currents in a motorhome the battery is fully charged by the time it reaches 13.8 to 14 volts. A safe and useful profile is absorption volts set to 14.2 volts, absorbtion time 30 minutes, float voltage 13.4 volts, no temperature compensation. The chargers should be disabled below 5 deg C unless the battery BMS has low temperature charge disable. Lithium batteries offer a huge advantage over lead acid but unlike the latter, lithium does not like being kept continually at full charge. Many motorhome installs of lithium batteries will fail, as yours have, within a few years due to incorrect charging. On the subject of cell technology , batteries may use pouch, prismatic or cylindrical format. There is little difference is battery life or robustness using any of the formats provided the battery mechanical construction is adequate. Many leisure lithium batteries use prismatic cells, four 100 Ah cells connected in series for a 12.8 volt 100 Ah battery. This prismatic cell format is used extensivly in automative applications in China. Mike
@@michaelfitzpatrick3641 This is the most insightful reply to this issue of batteries swelling. If the charge voltage is too low (below 12.8V) then the batteries will not completely charge. If the charge voltage is too high then you could charge the lithium batteries too fast. This can also happen if you are combining shore power with solar charging. A good battery monitor is vital to managing these issues because otherwise you are flying blind. You must not exceed the charging current rated for the batteries regardless of the voltage. This is not something that most chargers allow you to do. Hopefully the Victron charger that you are using will fix that issue. If you don't have one get a shunt style battery monitor so you can see what is going on.
OK let’s clear a few things up. FIRSTLY there are two basic lithium chemistries that are relevant here: “Lithium-Ion” (aka Li-on, LMC etc). These are the kind we find in our phones, laptops and until recently EVs. They have very high energy density but also not the best safety, and can be prone to thermal runaway if not well managed. The results of this can be deadly. These should never be used in off-grid storage situations due to the inherent safety issues.
Then there is Lithium Iron Phosphate (aka “LFP’, “LiFePO4”). These have slightly lower energy density, but hugely better safety. They are unllikely to explode or catch fire even in extreme conditions. They are considered safe for off grid storage including in vehicles and boats and are the only lithium chemistry that should be used. These are likely the type you have.
THEN there are three basic different cell types: Cylindrical (like AA batteries but larger), pouch (like what we have in phones, not well protected) and Prismatic (rectangular, housed in a pretty sturdy metal shell, or very sturdy plastic shell). LFP can come in all types but they’re most commonly found as prismatic, and rarely pouch form. There’s no reason to favour cylindrical cells for mobile use, in fact prismatic will be more space-efficient. I would avoid the pouch style.
Batteries made from Prismatic cells should however be put together in a way that holds the cells together to stop them from swelling during charging. Some manufacturers don’t do this, which is likely the issue you’ve experienced. We build these packs and always use a robust clamping system to keep the individual cells clamped snuggly together so they don’t swell. Doing this completely removes any visible swelling and is very important.
Without this clamping, the swelling of the cells causes significant physical movement inside the cells which can accelerate wear inside the cells (reducing life span). This is the main concern, and isn’t a safety issue. Under extreme circumstances, if the cells are over-discharged and over-charged frequently, this swelling can get extreme and *could* result in more sever physical damage inside the cells which might eventually cause a short condition, which would obviously not be great. Even then they are unlikely to combust though. The biggest danger would be off-gassing of noxious fumes.
In summary, yes buy-cheap, buy-twice, but the problem is not the lack of cylindrical cells (which have their own drawbacks), but rather the battery packs were not constructed with adequate consideration to swelling and prevention thereof. Better quality manufacturers will always cover this and so it won’t be an issue.
Spot on, well said and good information.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Also thanks for the other information.
In your opinion would you be happy to continue using my old batteries in the condition they were?
@@lifebeyondbricks We actually build LFP batteries, as well as installing them along with solar in Camper vans and off grid situations. That said, without knowing more about exactly what kind of cells and BMS are inside, and how you’ve been charging them, I probably wouldn’t.
I also noted someone else commented about your charger not being suitable. I don’t know the details of that charger but it could well be the case. It’s really important with LFP that they’re not over charged. Most lead acid chargers/settings WILL overcharge LFP on a normal lead acid settings. Even if the absorption voltage is OK (up to 14.4v can be ok, but 14.2v or even 14.0 is preferable for most batteries and situations), the float voltage is usually too high. Anything higher than 13.5v is not ok, but float off, or at 13.4v is better. A higher float charge will continually force more current into the cells at a higher voltage than they like to be at when full, which will reduce their lifespan considerably if this is done regularly, and may even affect their capacity.
Charger choice is not as simple as plug-np-lay, as some LFP vendors would like to have you believe. Victron chargers are good IF they’re set to LFP profile, or setup manually with appropriate settings.
Charging with a normal lead acid charger can be fine IF the charge is terminated (manually or by other means) when the cells reach 14.0v or so.
@@RollingHousesUK I think it is a clear case of over charging from the description of the lights cycling bright and dim when full. The batteries had a cheap BMS that took the cells right to the 14.6v limit and then had almost no hysteresis hence the continuous cycling. The batteries were sold back then as ‘drop in replacements’ for lead acid which they absolutely were not. They were built to get the absolute max capacity from the cells so they could be advertised as a high capacity for the smallest cell size. I find 14v is quite adequate as a cut off point sacrificing almost no capacity loss but not pushing the boundaries. 3.4v balance start with 5mv balance precision and enable balance when not charging also gives plenty of time for the balancer to do its job.
A lithium battery BMS should only be used as a safety back up and never used to control regular charging. Standard settings on a BMS will normally be set at the battery’s extreme charge/discharge limits to protect it if there is a system failure that could damage the battery. These settings should not be used for daily charging/discharging limits as they will stress the battery and shorten its lifespan. A good quality lithium charger factory set for your battery chemistry is required. Having said that people with the correct knowledge and equipment can use the BMS to control the charger .
photovoltaic/solar thermal technician here: all swollen batteries can be caused by overcharging, manufacturer defect, deep discharge, or damage to the battery... (dry cell, lead acid, lithium, etc) always found it fascinating why my AA or AAA batteries would swell, leak, corrode but after cleaning them up would still work. yep i was 12 yrs old at the time. Soylent Green movie peaked my interest when i saw the stationary bike recharge a battery. plus when my car battery would die but able to bump start the car, good 'ol standard transmission. anyway just take it back and either they replace it or they give you a discount. i do install lithium batteries but i prefer lead acid, maybe because i like to do my own maintenance. lithium does have an advantage in an rv but you can install a deep cycle lead acid battery in a spot that has plenty on ventilation. in a home i recommend lead acid but nowadays everyone wants lithium but complain about the up front cost even when they've come down in price.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Unfortunately the Batteries were out of warranty and I didn't particularly want the same ones back even if they were discounted. I agree good quality Lead based batteries are still relevant technology and if it was not for the weight vs energy density we would probably still use them, Our RV needs to be within 4.25 tonnes and we already run at 4 tonnes so similar energy capacity with lead Chemistry would eat into that weight.
Those existing batteries can be either prismatic (big blue cased ones) or pouch cell based ones (or cylindrical but I doubt it). I heard you mentioning using the existing charger. If thats an Schaudt EBL, that might have caused the swelling issue. Those are not suitable for Lithium, since they have a 16-hour period of 14.4V and a float of 13.8v, which both will overcharge the battery if this is used frequently. For optimal lifetime use 14.0-14.2V for absorbtion (so it will balance) and use 13.5V for float.
The new battery is most likely a prismatic based one, also not cylindrical. Cylindrical has some benefits (higher discharge, better thermal stability and less swelling) but for RV usage that doesn't really matter that much. Primatic offers a better weight/capacity ratio and is the most used version nowadays.
As for the app: I personally like the Liontron Multi app, or the AOLithium app. Those are more user-friendly, the 'old' xiaoxiang app is more towards the more technical experienced users, those other apps have a more clear basic info overview.
well said, charger choice is very important and is often overlooked, not least because the cheaper drop-in lithium vendors misleadingly suggest any normal lead acid charger can be used.
Thanks for watching and commenting, The charger in our motorhome is the Nordelettronica NE237 but I imagine the charging profiles are the same as the Schaudt unit (We now use a Victron charger for this reason). It is interesting that most companies that sell Lithiums with internal BMS's tell you that no hardware changes are required in the vehicle, which may be correct as long as the BMS is of decent quality, which I have now learnt the hard/expensive way.
Thanks for the advice on the Apps, I will try the other 2 you suggested.
@@lifebeyondbricks It’s not even really correct. It depends on what equipment you have of course, but most lead acid equipment is not suitable for everyday LFP charging for one reason or another, even if it may be OK to use it as a manual, one-off charge source if you know how to avoid the pitfalls. The reason they say it’s fine, of course is to make their product appeal to as many people as possible.
Reading the manual on his Nordelettronica NE237 charger, it is definitely the reason these batteries are now toast... however he did not say he was having any issues with their capacity. You must read the spec's on chargers even marketed for LFP batteries. Being in Canada, I know of a popular American RV charger brand who came out with a "LiFePO4 rated" charger, but it put out a constant 14.6V forever! They later came out with a 2-stage version with a Float mode, but it still stays in absorption far too long for my liking.
@@brucehislop8860 Agree. Manual says 14.4/13.8V in GEL mode, but it doesn't say anything about the absorbtion period of the 14.4V. (Probably too long). Also, 13.8V is too high for Lithium.
Great video. :) Good job you checked the battery compartment!
Thanks Kat, Yeah lucky I checked really won't have the same problem with the EcoTree battery thankfully.
Well explained John, I hope they gave you a good discount given the amount of kit they have given away to other UA-camrs. I'd like Lithium in the new van when it finally comes but I can't justify the cost so will have to make do with a better MPPT and second AGM. Cheers K.
Thanks, yes they did give us a discount which we were very pleased about because they aren’t cheap, but I suppose we have learned the hard way to pay a bit more for something that is good quality. Yeah AGM’s are still good and if you can get a bit more efficiency from your solar that should keep you topped up.
If Lifepo4 cells are not charged properly or kept at a high state of charge, the new ones won’t last any longer. Unlike lead acid batteries lithium doesn’t do well to be held at full charge. Older lithium/RV chargers and inverter chargers would charge to 14.4 volts and hold it there (indefinite “float”). Charge them to 14.4 and it’s done-stop! If you’re planning on needing battery power, let them drop to 13.6 before it charges back up. Long term storage/ off season 13.3 is great. Cycling lithiums is great. You will run out of calendar life before cycle life. Most newer lithium inverters/chargers have the right charge profile but many of the original RV “converter” manufacturers still got it wrong. They think all they got to do is tweak and rebadge their old machines.
Thanks for watching and commenting, The EcoTree batteries will not allow themselves to be overcharged the internal BMS's seem to control this a lot better than the old non-branded batteries. The biggest issue with the suppliers of a lot of the cheaper LFP RV batteries is they market them as drop in replacements which alot of them are not and need close charging control to stop overcharge conditions. That said I have changed the charging profiles for the new batteries so when we have shore power for long periods of time the batteries sit at 80% charged and the charger will keep them there no matter what, will only then charge back to 100% if we are going to be of grid for any length of time.
You actually described exactly what the problem is: you have been chronically over charging them. When sold that sort of battery was sold as a ‘drop in replacement’ for lead acid and they simply weren’t. They had a BMS that was basically a last ditch protection and you drove them right up against the buffers which is why you were seeing the brightening and dimming of lights when full. They were never suitable as drop ins and needed to have a tightly controlled charging regime. The manufacturers of the cells give very clear guidance as to what the cells like but the battery assemblers were more keen to advertise the batteries in a way to sell them to as many as possible using the ‘drop in’ claims on batteries simply not suitable without additional equipment. They had to get the most power into the batteries in order to be able to claim the capacity they did. I would strongly advise that you set up the BMS in your new ones to actually look after the cells properly by cutting charge before the batteries are right at their limit.A cutoff of 14v works well with a cut back in of 13.5v, this avoids pushing the envelope and gives reasonable hysteresis. There is a very good chance that your old batteries are in fact fine but with just a bit of lost capacity. Batteries taken right to the limit do swell and.others have had it happen and it has always been down to overcharging but in most cases, with much more severe swelling than you have seen, the performance has still remained good. The prismatic Cells are actually remarkably robust if that is what it has and even the pouch cells are fairly forgiving and neither will burst into flames.
I should also have mentioned that with the JBD BMS that your new batteries has a balance start of 3.4v, balance precision of 5mv works well and also turn off the ‘balance only when charging switch’ this gives plenty of balance time at the lower cut off voltage.
Thanks for watching and commenting, I agree and now realise that all LFP batteries and BMS's are not equal, maybe I shouldn't have believed the marketing BS although the place that supplied/installed them obviously didn't understand fully how they worked either otherwise they wouldn't of set them up with all the original hardware in the vehicle. Every day is a school day I suppose and I understand a lot more about the batteries than I did before.
Thanks for the info.
Good video, thank you Jon, didn’t know that about the cells, glad you were able to replace them.
Thanks, Yeah its always a learning curve.
I would have a look in the old batteries , they are probably fine . The swelling you speak of occurs in the other direction from what you experienced . It's more likely the foam around the cells pushing on the plastic. Cut the top and have a look , you can buy a new case for cheap if the cells are good .
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yes, that is the next thing to do, I would like to do a capacity test to see if there is any indication of a damaged cell and then take them apart.
Great video John, I am seriously thinking of replacing my two AGMs for the Eco Tree seat base lithium, it will be increasing to see how you get on with it 👍👍👍👍
Thanks for watching and commenting, I am already well happy with the new battery much prefer having a reputable brand with long warranty and very good backup from EcoTree. The new battery does not allow itself to be overcharged which I assume was the problem with the old batteries.
It's LiFePo4? No worries about the safety. They are /very/ hard to get to catch fire, even if you impale them and short them out. They have immensely stable chemistry.
Yes, it’s poor fusing/wiring/connections that cause most fires. Keep a CO2 or Halon extinguisher handy.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Agree good quality LFP chemistry batteries are very robust and unlikely to catch fire, however, there are plenty of poorly constructed LFP batteries out there as well that are not as safe, my old batteries were always an unknown quantity to me, I am looking forward to striping the old batteries to see what has happened and to see what sort of quality they are.
Nice van set up. What do u have a split charger ? I want to change mine but it's all very baffling
Thanks for watching and commenting, At the moment we are using the Victron Orion smart 30amp charger (which replaces the split charger), I will be experimenting with other charging systems in the future so watch this space.
Ultimately the Ecotree Batteries are designed to be a straight swap for your original leisure battery so you shouldn't need any other hardware to start you off, there are benefits to fitting larger chargers like what we have as it means you can quickly replace the power you use from the battery but it is not essential.
@@lifebeyondbricks thanks for reply I'll look into it
hi- you said you weren't happy with the Victron inverter. could you say why? many thanks
Thanks for watching and commenting, No I didn't show the inverter as it was under drivers seat but it wasn't a Victron unit as we couldn't afford it at the time, instead it was a cheap-ish Giandel inverter that had started making a abnormal whirring noise when first turned on so we have now replaced with Renogy 2000watt which has been fine so far.
Well spotted. Should be fine with those new ones 👍💙❤️
Yeah, I am well impressed with the EcoTree lithiums so far.
good vid thanks lee
When you buy something you should know the warrenty period. And cheaper products usually only have the legally required warrenty period (2 years). So you shouldve known that after 3 years you were out of warrenty.
fair enough
Next on my list to change - good to see a honest review on good and bad
Thanks, For us lithiums have been a game changer, even the old "cheapy" ones haven't missed a beat till now, huge capacity and much lower weight when compared to Lead/AGM's.
The Ecotree battery we went for has 30ah more capacity than the old ones in a smaller package.
Daddy on video 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮🤣
Happy new year guys 🎉
Thanks Chris, To you too. 😜
Cheaper lithium batteries are constructed with foam padding blocks around the internal battery packs, so if swelling is visible from the outside, the batteries are probably allot more blown than the casing indicates.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yes, hence why I was so keen to get them replaced as soon as possible, I will hopefully do a tear down video with them soon.
@@lifebeyondbricks I watched a similar video only yesterday demonstrating the same kind of cheap nasty (often unsafe) battery construction. Looks like the battery's they've hooked you up with, should outlast the vehicle. Yeah I look forward to you tearing the old ones down. I caution you not to leave it too long though, you are after all sitting on a couple of potential time bombs! 😉
@@Zodliness I am much happier with the new Battery from EcoTree as they are tried and tested, my old unbranded batteries were always an unknown to me and wanted to get them replaced anyway (knowing what I know now I should never have believed the company that sold them to me but I suppose you live and learn). Yes, I need to find a safe area to get them discharged fully and then I can hopefully very carefully take them apart.
@@lifebeyondbricks OPEN FIELD, SHORT CIRCUIT FULLY CHARGED, SEND THEM OFF IN GRAND STYLE, LOTS OF VIEWS AND LIKES! 🤣
Hi. You’re not actually correct about the cell safety. Prismatic and cylindrical cells are used in auto applications. It’s down to how the cells/batteries are managed by the electronics (low temp cut off/ heating) and packaged into the structure of the vehicle or in this case a battery box regarding vibration and thermal management. Also the quality of the cell manufacturing process.
Thanks for watching and commenting, that's fair enough, which Cell structure would you say is best for our application?
@@lifebeyondbricks there’s know hard and fast rule as the. Chap said it’s down to management BMS and quality of production.
That’s a bit of a pain, however you have two warranties the manufacturers or more to the point the retailer and what a lot of people don’t seem to realise the warranty under the sale of goods act. It state that what you buy must be fit for purpose and last a reasonable period of time. In your case a lithium should last a site more than 2 years. My advice would be to go back to the retailer with this info, and ask for a reasonable settlement or you’ll take the matter further. You will need a report on the batteries condition and why the batteries started to swell up to prove the were not fit for purpose. I was able to do this some years ago with a faulty dometic refrigerator and whilst the manufacturer wouldn’t entertain it the dealer Lowdham Leisureworld agreed to replace the faulty evaporator.
@@wobby1516 if your system can work with a higher voltage I would go with some server rack batttiers. Eg4 is a good brand but trophy battery is pretty nice also. The channel "DIY solar" did a nice review on the trophy battery which comes with internal heaters and cold weather protection for charging.
I'm concerned about the swelling on those batteries, I know you swapped them out, but lithium fires are very fierce, very toxic and hard to extinguish. If they distort and short internally they heat very fast and catch fire in a short time. Be interesting to know how widespread that problem is.
Thanks for watching and commenting, yes, the swelling was certainly a concern which is why we replaced them ASAP. If they are LiFePo4 as labelled then they would be very unlikely to catch fire but better to be safe than sorry.
@@lifebeyondbricks thermal runaway also happens in LiFePO4 batteries , remember the VW boat that sank?
Biggest issue, you cannot extinguish it as it produces its own oxygen.
See AutoExpert John Cadogan latest video and his other ones.
Buying cheap lithium is far too consequential to do
I would be willing to bet that if you cut the top off your old battery and opened your new battery - they have the same cells. I think others have said that over charging might be what caused the swelling - they still should be fine though. I’d cut the top off and make sure they just swelled up and then wire them in parallel with your new battery. The lifepo4 chemistry should be fine. I have 15,300 watts on my coach and have found 3.45v per cell should be used to charge (27.6v for me) and use 3.337v per cell (26.7v for me) for float/storage. Anything higher is unnecessary (look at a charge curve). Mine rest around 3.337v after charging up to 3.45v. Then if my coach calls for any amps, the charger provides it while the battery continues to sit idle.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yes you are probably right about the cells, at least my new battery can be easily taken apart (no cutting plastic cases). When you spend a bit more I think the money is in the overall build quality and the BMS. Our charging profile is set very similar now, batteries sit idle at 80% when on hookup for any length of time and the charger just makes up the load that is used.
Over discharge will swell lithium cells and over charging too
Thanks for watching and commenting, I agree. We have never over discharged our old units but fear they might have overcharged at some point, I will be changing some of the hardware to reduce the chances of this happening again.
I'd be looking very carefully and triple checking at your charge and discharge max and min voltages and also fitting a thermometer in the batt compartment so you can check how cold the batteries are getting - it's not heat that kills them it's cold. Sadly looks like the cheap batts did not have a temperature cutoff or not a very good BMS and could not protect themselves.
Thanks for watching and commenting, low battery temp is not an issue for us as the batteries are inside the vehicle and we live in it full time so internal temperature and batteries never fall below 15 degrees Celsius.
Yes I am looking more closely at max and min voltages now even though the BMS on the new battery is really good, I agree the old batteries BMS probably isn't great so I am looking forward to pulling them apart and having a look.
Leoch lead carbon batteries are excellent . 5 year warranty.. tried and tested for over 3 years on a liveaboard cruiser.. 2500 cycles...
Agree, the lead carbons are impressive along with their warranty, our only issue with these in a motorhome is the weight and size, to get anywhere close to 230Ah I would need LDC12-245 and that weighs in @64kg.
@@lifebeyondbricks Leoch are heavy. i had quite the list..
@@waynejacksonofficial 😂😂 To be fair I have only heard good things about Leoch Carbon batteries.
@@lifebeyondbricks i Wouldnt use any other now. But Each To there own.
Happy new year guys,looking forward to seeing more from your channel,love your videos as always
Thanks, Same to you, hope you have a good one.
Hi John just a quick one what voltage does the charger that the van come with as that might be the reason the battery expanded because my van pumps 15.5 volt now and then as it matins the battery health but lithium does not like that at all and would not like above 14.2v to 14.4 your victron would be fine but the other one would be the problem
Thanks for watching and commenting, the onboard charger would do about 14.7 on bulk set to AGM profile which is what the company that supplied the old Lithiums said it should be on, I think that is still too high though.
I have been using a Victron charger set to lifePo4 for the last year so shouldn't of been that.
@@lifebeyondbricks I assume the victron is connected to solar so lifepo setting is fine for that but that doesn't stop the rv converter from overcharging
@@bryanspears2045 No we don't really use the original charger now, we have Victron for shore power, solar, and engine charging. The new battery doesn't allow the LFP cells to be overcharged either, so should all be fine now.
Well at least you’re the person to recognise where there is a potential problem. I must say I am in awe of your ability to explain the situation to people. I am curious as to what you were going to eat, the smoke was a bit worrying though. Maybe an excuse to eat out! Hope you’re having a great Xmas.
Ah thank you, the old batteries would probably have been fine for ages but just cannot take the risk as it is our full time home and the cats are in there while we are away from the van hence the Wi-Fi cameras and temperature sensors as a sort of early warning system, but I must say the new battery is a beast and I am well happy with it so far.
@@lifebeyondbricks What do you do with the old batteries? Can you trade them in or sell them for the content?
@@swdman1234 Not entirely sure yet, I might pull them apart to see what has gone wrong or repurpose them for some solar storage or something.
I would think the old ones are fine
Thanks for watching and commenting, yeah that may well be the case I will have to open them up to have a look inside.
Great video Jon, good thing changing those batteries, probably still useful for something, just not your home!
Ah thanks m8, yeah they still function fine, might have to keep them for some solar storage later on.
The cells in that battery are prismatic, not cylindrical.
(According to the datasheet)
.
Most (not all) cylindrical cells are Nickel based. Higher energy density, so lighter, but ...... Higher energy density! so slightly more volatile (hence the undeserved reputation of "lithium cells catch fire!!")
.
These are Square section (hence "prismatic") Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) cells, slightly heavier, but arguably more stable.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Where did you find the data sheet for my old batteries? even the place which sold them to us couldn't supply it.
Great video very informative 👏
Ah thank you, thanks for watching! Hope you guys are all well
Well, it was either watch you or watch Call The Midwife :-)
Joking aside, great info, I wouldn't have been happy with the batteries in that state. It would have always been on your mind and better safe than sorry.
Thanks m8, I probably would have gone for call the Midwife 😂😂.
Yes when it is our only home and the cats are in there all the time it is not worth running the risk. On the bright side we now have another 30ah as well... enough for another 30 episodes of Call the Midwife 😜
Ahhh no way. Hey it’s a case of live and learn maybe …. Great video though as always. ….. Merry Christmas 🎄🎁🎅🏻 Smithy
Thanks Smithy, Yeah every day is a school day. 😂😜
Nicely explained Jon, have to admit Lithium is a want but not need for me, don’t use enough 230v to warrant an inverter and pretty much everything is usb these days so my 2x Agm cope ok, that said living in a van is obviously way different than weekends and 3 full weeks…. I do like the look of the shaped battery design for under the seat though. Cheers for uploading 👍
Yes they are a game changer when you live in a van, but AGM’s are still reliable technology. Eco tree’s underseat battery is a great bit of design as it is a commonly unused space.
If a thermal runaway was to happen it would happen way faster than you would be able to respond to. Ie it isn't going to heat over days.
Thanks for watching and commenting, agreed, although thermal runaway in LiFePo4 Leisure batteries is extremely rare. swelling of the cells occurs first in an overcharge scenario which is why it is important to always monitor and visually check your electrical system, As a result of our issues and some further testing I found that the unbranded battery BMS were not always protecting the cells as they should of. The solar controller charge profile was also incorrectly set which should of been the first line of defence (The system was installed before we purchased the van)
would have to open up the faulty batteries to find out whats happend to the cells and how many have swollen
Thanks for watching and commenting,
Yes I do plan to as I would like to know.
@@lifebeyondbricks would be interesting to see please do video, I would definatly check all your charging voltages on your rig to make sure they are not to high , i imagine that replacment battery was not cheap dont want to damage it.
@@andrewbrown6705 Yeah will do, might be a few weeks before I have time to take them apart. You are right though the new batteries were not cheap, so will check to make sure nothing is over charging them.
pack cells never heard of them I have heard of pouch cells
Pouch cells
Like a ..... Pouch of say soup from the supermarket.
.
Prismatic cells.
Similar material, wound flat into a 20-25mm thick "book shape" with a metal case for each cell.
.
These two form factors are the normal choice for LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) cells.
.
Cylindrical.
Normally Nickel based higher energy cells. (NMC, NCA, etc)
Typically
18650 (18mm dia by 65mm tall).
Or
2170 (21mm by 70mn tall)
Or now, the latest form
4680 (46 dia by 80 tall)
(AKA the Tesla cell)
.
The old batteries may have been pouch (but probably Prismatic)
The Eco Tree battery definitely uses Prismatic LiFePo4 cells.
Sorry, you are right I meant to say "Pouch" cells, it was a long day.
Great video
Thanks for watching and commenting.
Should have air gap around batteries on all sides
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yeah I will do a tear down on the batteries to see what's happened.
air gap isn't needed. when you build packs you clamp cells together
If you don't have an air gap a coolong system is required like ev's have or thermal runoff is a definite possibility
in EV they have massive discharge rates like 5-10C 100-300 kilowatts... yes cooling is an issue...
Solar set up are fraction C. they don't charge to 80% in 15 minutes
When a lithium battery goes into thermal runaway the temperature goes up pretty quickly.
How would you cope with a thermal runaway issue ?
As soon as I noticed the swelling I put a temp sensors on the batteries and monitored the temperatures like a hawk, I can remove the 2 batteries as a module in seconds (providing they were not on fire of course), Which is why I was so keen to get them replaced ASAP.
@@lifebeyondbricks please just be careful, the bigger the battery the more it will go off like a russian tank turret in the blink of an eye .
@@davidrobertson5700 LiFePO4 batteries like that don’t suffer thermal runaway. It’s the ternary lithium as used in almost all cars, phones, laptops and consumer goods that suffer from that. There are many demonstrations on UA-cam comparing the safety of the two types.
@@philbrooke-little7082 do the batteries contain lithium ? Yes.
Is lithium dangerous ? Yes
Do you have to be picky ? No but you love to pipe up as that is the only way you can be significant.
Ta ta
@@davidrobertson5700 well done you have just demonstrated an excellent ignorance of chemistry and specifically that of lithium and its compounds and a remarkable ability to generalise given that ignorance. Lead batteries of course are so benign being full of poisonous lead, strong acid and explosive gas.Ta ta indeed.
👍👍👍
Cheers guys.
The frightening thing is you cannot put them out if on fire
you can if its a co2, can put any fire out if you smother the oxygen from it. Moron.
Thanks for watching and commenting, to be fair any battery fire is difficult to extinguish, doesn't matter what technology the battery is.
@@lifebeyondbricks Any fire can be put out if you know how to handle it correctly, remember the fire traingle. Heat, Oxygen and feul. If you remove ethier of these elemnts, the fire will die out. chemical fires like batteries usually require smothering or "cutting off the oxygen supply to the fire, usually something co2 or otherwise made to dstarve the fire of oxygen depervatio. Ive had fires, lithuim, lead acid, the works. you'd all be surprise how effective just a simple co2 extingerier is on them. Ive never had a battery fire last more then mear seconds. Back befoe I started sealing packs in metal cans. (if anything happens the box just get hots, no more fires for me.
Pretty sure this is user error. Don't recharge or discharge them when they're frozen, Don't over charge them, don't let them overheat, and don't charge/discharge them too quickly, and they will not swell.
The battery BMS shouldn't be what is ending the charging. That is only a last resort protection. The parameters of the charge control unit should be set to finish charging somewhere between 13.8 to 14 volts.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Yes I agree with that as a general rule but I have found there are huge differences in the BMS's when it comes to input voltages and charging especially when you take internal cell balancing into account. We never had any battery specification info given with the old batteries we were told to use an AGM charging profile which most would be considered too higher voltage for lithiums. We used Victrons lifePo4 preset charging settings for the old batteries and they would never get past 75% charged and were probably never entering balancing state, On a AGM preset was the only time you could ever get them fully charged.
The BMS on the Eco tree lithuims seems much better but I suppose that is where the extra money is, even these don't cell balance until 14.2 volts though.
Ceasing charge based on a voltage is a great way to abuse the cells - Li chemistry cells need to managed by a BMS that is able to monitor and cease charge based in tail current, not terminal voltage.
Unless I misunderstood, why are you having to pay--aren't your old batteries under warranty?
Our old batteries are not Ecotree. They are unbranded ones we got from Solar Solutions, 3 years ago and sadly, they only carry a 2 year warranty. That being said, we are happy to move to Ecotree because we know how good they are, Tash has had one for over a year in her T5! Thanks for watching 🎄
@@lifebeyondbricks Okay--thank you--I understand clearly now. You made a very nice video. I hope that the new battery set-up works well for you! Best wishes!
Thank you so much for watching!
So was there a capacity drop in the old batteries ?
@@antoniopalmero4063 Not sure yet, didn't want to do any testing until I had removed them from our motorhome.
Are you going to do a tear down video?
Hey Bruce, Seasons greetings to you.
Yes hopefully I will do, might need to enlist the help of someone who knows what they are doing, someone that has built their own lithiums, and that maybe has an air fryer 😂😂😂
@@lifebeyondbricks - ooh! I’ve done and got both!!! 🥳💥
@@lifebeyondbricks you’ll like what I’m working on right now… soon to announce!
@@BruceLauderdale oooooh, don't tease me Bruce. 😂
Sounds like you just wanted a fancy new battery and had to justify it to the missus 😃
Thanks for watching and commenting, Nah the missus was fine with it, any battery swelling indicates a fault within the battery so it's better to be safe than sorry.
As I said before..? Those batteries are GOOD, No, great,!!! BUT until winter comes..? Count how many video's on youtube are complaining about Lithiam in cold winter, then count the amount about AGM.(0) no one has grasped the fact that lithium has to be kept warm to charged and work like they should.. if not they fail.. Keep warm you 2.. Merry all that bumfff.. XX
Hi Womble Seasons greetings to you too.
To be fair our old lithiums would never have got too cold as they are inside the van and our heating is never off. I have a feeling that the BMS (battery management system) in the old batteries was allowing them to overcharge which won't be a problem with the new one as the BMS is much more robust and it has heater matts built in, however, this function will not be required for us as again they will always be kept at the same temperature as us squiggy humans.
The Eco Tree batteries have low temp protection built in.
Hi ya Roger.. Yep most lithiam have a low temp disconnect, that is what stops them charging, unless you have a heated mat inside the battery you will run out of power. That's what every one is on about.. Get a heated mat under them.. Cheers
@@lifebeyondbricks agreed Shouldn't be an issue if it's not below zero inside your van and if anyone was regularly dealing with those temps then get them insulated and heating mats.
I have (6) lifepo4 200AH batteries in parallel at my off grid camp (travel trailer). We camp in the winter and have yet to have an issue with temperature. The batteries offer power to a bit below zero deg F so when I arrive Since the temp has always been above that I heat the trailer no problem. In short time the batteries warm up and will take a charge. I honestly can't say that the batteries reported being below 30 degrees F yet though. I'm sure they have been and this could be a short term issue but easily remedied if needed. I'm 1.5 years in with them and love everything about them, cost aside of course.
Bad news with the batteries but better to be safe then sorry.
Thanks, Yeah, it was just too much of a risk not to change them.
Hi , are you interested in selling your old batteries !
Hi Peet, No sorry, it is too much of a risk, I am hoping to do a teardown video on them at some stage.
Ok ‘ thank you for your reply .
They're crap they won't accept charge when it's freezing
Thanks for watching and commenting. They do actually as they have built in heat matts.
Your batteries were most likely overcharged by typical motorhome electronics. If the battery management , BMS, is terminating the charge process its a sure sign the existing charge profile is not correct. Keeping a lithium battery at a high charge voltage causes damage and reduces battery life. With the relatively low charge currents in a motorhome the battery is fully charged by the time it reaches 13.8 to 14 volts.
A safe and useful profile is absorption volts set to 14.2 volts, absorbtion time 30 minutes, float voltage 13.4 volts, no temperature compensation.
The chargers should be disabled below 5 deg C unless the battery BMS has low temperature charge disable.
Lithium batteries offer a huge advantage over lead acid but unlike the latter, lithium does not like being kept continually at full charge.
Many motorhome installs of lithium batteries will fail, as yours have, within a few years due to incorrect charging.
On the subject of cell technology , batteries may use pouch, prismatic or cylindrical format. There is little difference is battery life or robustness using any of the formats provided the battery mechanical construction is adequate. Many leisure lithium batteries use prismatic cells, four 100 Ah cells connected in series for a 12.8 volt 100 Ah battery. This prismatic cell format is used extensivly in automative applications in China.
Mike
@@michaelfitzpatrick3641 This is the most insightful reply to this issue of batteries swelling. If the charge voltage is too low (below 12.8V) then the batteries will not completely charge. If the charge voltage is too high then you could charge the lithium batteries too fast. This can also happen if you are combining shore power with solar charging. A good battery monitor is vital to managing these issues because otherwise you are flying blind. You must not exceed the charging current rated for the batteries regardless of the voltage. This is not something that most chargers allow you to do. Hopefully the Victron charger that you are using will fix that issue. If you don't have one get a shunt style battery monitor so you can see what is going on.
Ditch the old lead-acid charger and buy a proper LiFePO4 charger. Chargers are cheap compared to batteries.
Thanks for watching and commenting, yes we have all Victron chargers now.
@@lifebeyondbricks Me too. I have wasted a lot of money on chargers, I will only buy Victron gear now.
Get what you pay for
Thanks for watching and commenting. Yep! I agree.
Another brilliant video guys 👍👍❤️ @bettyourcampervan xx
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed it.
@@lifebeyondbricks you two and cats are just ace xx