Buying a Horizontal CNC Mill? Here are the lessons that we have learned!
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- We LOVE our Okuma MB-4000H Horizontal CNC Mill! Having run vertical machining centers over the past decade - from TAIG to Tormach to Haas - the productivity of the horizontal truly is amazing. However, there are many lessons (some painful!) that we have learned in our first six months of running this machine. If you're thinking about buying a horizontal, this video is a must-watch for machine options, workholding, and production info!
00:00 Intro
02:00 ATC Size
02:45 Pallet Pool Quirks
03:50 Fixturing & Tombstones
06:00 Fixturing Advice
06:25 Y-axis: Horizontal's big limitation
09:33 Loading Parts
11:30 Balancing machine workload
12:30 Cost of mixing metal chips
14:08 Tool Life Management
17:40 Tool Break Alarms
18:15 APC Design
19:25 Coolant Consumption
20:30 Daytime versus Lights Out
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I remember watching your videos back then. You have come a long way from owning Tormachs to now having all these awesome machines. This is proof that hard work and perseverance does pay off.
Thanks!
Excellent video and summary of Horizontal mills and pallet systems. Thanks for your effort to produce this video. I’d like to add some info here that I think was missed about pallet systems.
1) A Rotary Pallet System is a massive improvement vs the 2 pallet system as you pointed out but a linear pallet system allows growth in future years, or as the part mix grows. With a Linear system you can add another machine and/or expand the pallet system to accommodate more jobs.
2)Most manufactures have pallet systems that can be ordered multiple levels high. This offers the saving of space. Don’t underestimate the value/cost of realestate inside your shop.
3)Some pallet systems allow different style machines. Mix 2 horizontals with a 5 axis. The pallet system becomes a storage facility and server to each machine as demand/schedule allows.
About tool breakage and tool management. Many machine tool manufacturers are rapidly adding features to deal with this very problem. Ask your sales rep to explain how his/her system deals with this. For older systems you can look at the Caron Engineering. They offer a suite of sensors intended to solve this exact problem.
we already know how you started. you've told us 1000 times dude and we respect you.
I run this exact machine with the same APC. I can confirm dropping parts is very common.
Also once you get the automatic scheduling system down it makes your life easier I enjoy it! Nice shop 👍🏽
Can’t say having the pallet pool as one piece is significantly less hassle to move. Cost us a small fortune to de-commission then re-commission our DMG pallet pool for a move. Just part of the complex territory of horizontals. I think you are progressing fine in learning the ins and outs of horizontal wrangling! Thanks for all your videos, been with you since your very first!! Outstanding progress it’s a joy watching you succeed.
I cant tell you much this video is appreciated as I'm in the market right now looking for a horizontal!
A simple suggestion for the temporary tool problem would be to start at the end of the range with temporary tools and add them in descending order. This way your top clump of tools is always where to look.
A feature that would be nice is if the loading port could bow the tombstone down so that you could load it like a vertical mill.
look into Makinos MAG 3
oh man that would be amazing
@@Max_Marz The 5 minute pallet change time was a little rough.
I used to run a 10 pallet Okuma that had a hydraulic tilting station and controls to rotate it and then home it before tilting it up again. Super useful.
If you have a computer near the machine you can make an excell spreadsheet of tools in the machine and keep it updated. I run 2 okks with 180 tools each and found this to be the best way as long as you keep up on the spreadsheet as you change tools. Also we put tools that should never come out in bold underline text.
What i was going to say. Or perhaps laminated sheets with "common" tools printed and "free spaces" blank to allow dry-erase/wet erase marks.
i work on a okuma lathe. and the tool load monitoring feature is awsome i always use it on drilling tapinng and milling. You can set a max load on a specific tool to warn you (tool is almost dead) but dont stop the mashine and a maximum load wich stops the mashin. this way i have never broke a single tool in almost 10 years
not sure if there is a way but if just the warning popt up but the tool finished to tell the controller to call the sister tool up for nxt time. probaly with some custom makros. okuma mashines very macro frendly
What Okuma lathe model do you run?
@@freedomenergy6644 I ran a lu300 simulturn and it has this feature
Another great video, John. I’ve watched you for many years and have cheered all of your successes. Love your content!
Regarding part loading on a vertical, Seems like you could load parts on a plate on a bench and then have a zero point setup where all you have to do is mount the plate on a few locating studs and then clamp it down. Something like the Pierson work holding zero point stuff. Hell, even a French cleat with locating pins.
Just thinking out loud! I'd love a horizontal.
I use ball lock system
Incredible advice...were all very lucky to hear such comments and suggestions.
About "lost tools", I work on Siemens controls and you can call tools by name, not number. That way you can give a meaningful name to each tool and scroll through the list to identify them on the fly. Very convenient!
that IS very nice.
One of the things that I like the most about Sinumerik control. But before starting wirh that, don't overthink it and figure out some naming stnadard for common tools with different styles and diameters. For example all my drills are called "DRILL-(diameter)-(drill type)". Drill types for me are: HSS, VHM (short for carbide), VHM-TIP and INSERTS. If I use few lenghts, I just add "long" or XxD to the tool, for end mills if it's a rougher or finisher.
With horizontal, best to begin use macros for job work-offset, pallet selection and multi-part setup. If you master your post-processor, you can even split each operation in a single programs with unique id and have master macro that manage the jobs at a higher level on the machine (ex tool sorting). With that you can run/ restart jobs from anywhere. You will be more efficient without using the cam for the multi-part but manage it with macro on the machine. Override the M6 with your own macro help a lot to. Because you could do your own managment (tool life, breakage detect on/off etc)
It looks like you are having fun for a living. I only have one VF4 SS and I love it. I couldn't imagine having that many machines.
The Morris apps guys wrote me a few custom macros for stuff like your tool breakage dilemma. You need to badger your machine tool dealer about that. No way I would come in to change tools on an Okuma; it is fully capable of automatically switching to a sister tool.
Right!
That is still way way up, growing. Just cool
Thanks for this video. It is pure gold.
We are just shopping for horizontals right now. Good timing!
For the chips, I have had two jobs that I swap between frequently before where I had a inconel chip bin and a stainless chip bin that I would just swap out behind the machine when I changed over. Sometimes I would even change them over during a pallet change. Some chip bins also have a bung for a ball valve to let coolant drain, or you could weld one in.
On the tool upkeep, on the Makino HMCs I used to run there was a interlocked door that was on the matrix magazines that you can climb inside, so I would just grab my flashlight to look over tools that were in the magazine, and any that I wanted to change I would call and index in the offline load station.
Thanks for the video.
Its actually pretty easy to use the Tool Breakage on that machine with Tool Life Management system to grab a new tool so you don't stop running. You can also put tool time or use count to expire tools and get a new one from the hive.
I bet i can make that machine continue after the tool breakage check and automatically replace it with a fresh one. I've done equivalent things for customization and written some really cool macros. Macros are the most satisfying things to watch for the first trial runs. And changing the variables to see how it reacts, and if it makes the right decision as intended. You have to test macros in every way possible and think about every situation that may arise. There's no limit to how user friendly and intuitive you can make it with macros.
Awsome show! I have been working with Direct Numerical Control (DNC)with my sharp mini mill. Working towards getting a tomb stone on a 4th axis. DNC will alow you to have full controle of your cnc remotely so you will not have to come in if a tool breaks and you will be able to have all the info from the control. As long as people don't find a way to remote control your multi million dollar CNC it's a great solution to see how the cnc is operating. ( I still have a hard time walking away from my machine while it's running)
very informative!
I run this machine's big brother, the "MA-500" in salem, ohio. I have some experience with setting up tool load monitoring at the control and it really isn't too difficult once you get your head wrapped around using macros.
Good to know - thanks.
Having a horisontal with a Big pallet pool and 200 tools is a Dream to get into my shop.
Thanks for sharing your experience John. Noice!
I'd love to work in a shop with that tooling
Hopefully you did spec the machine with the MOP-Tool option so you can auto set the tool load limits.
That way you can save a the load limit file that ends with .TOP for each program. It makes setups very fast and safe if you have a dedicated tool pack for each part.
Can you please make a video on trachoidal milling and milling techniques for 2022?
Yes, gravity is your worst enemy in horizontal land. Even with indicating bores. I did get pretty strong loading 80lb aluminum plates like drywall though, lol
What a great share, John! Thank you! Tons of insight! Like many others here, wouldn't it be cool if Okuma (and maybe all pallet pool makers?) make a "tombstone loading option" that takes that tombstone in the loading position and pivots it down so it's rotation axis is horizontal, so you can load it up with gravity. That would be pretty cool...
The tombstones + workholding can easily weight over 700lb. I would guess a mechanism like this, while super helpful, would be prohibitively expensive or complicated.
@@nyccnc a koike e welding positioner could be adapted to lay a tombstone over and rotate it. They can usually be had for a couple thousand dollars for an automated one. Handling the transition from the machine would be the trickiest part to work out.
You can set redundant tools in your tool life screen by setting them to the same "group number" and the life to count(spare) or time (spare). If say T24 and T124 are both set to group 1 and T24 has -1 cycles left, the program will pull T124 when it calls T24 and run it instead
I knew there had to be a way.
Happy Wednesday?! Missing the wednesday widgets here!
In Windsor Ontario, the big money comes on large boring mills. Right now I work on weldments where the work is more or less the setup, the ability to capitalize on automation is slim. I ran a pallet changing Toshiba at a mold shop that had 70% spindle uptime, 24 hours a day, squaring up 10-30ton blocks of steel pre and post heat treat. The work there was balancing different steps in the mold process in each setup. This meant taking on and off an 8 foot tall tombstone to fixture those molds against when needed, taking on and off magnets when needed, setting up the other pallet while the other machines what you just programmed. I loved optimizing my work on those massive blocks, id square up 3-5 molds in 6-10 setups in a 12 hour shift. I ran a small Horizontal mill like yours and I found the work incredibly monotonous and since Windsor is an extremely competitive market, small components are worth peanuts so you make peanut shells making them. Hell is using parallels without clips in a small horizontal mill.
This made me reconsider getting a horizontal. My product mix has low to medium volume and I was considering this to boost my productivity however i'll have to stick to 3-axis as it seems to be much quicker to load/set up and manage during the day for short runs. Maybe one day...as I dream of a horizontal as they're beasts for MRR and lights out machining.
horizontal machining centers usually had 2 pallets, when one is being machined the other one is being loaded so no down time due to loading
@@yagermeister1303 Yeah, I guess everyone has different needs and uses. When running low volume stuff it's a pain to be setting up 2 pallets when you can get a VMC loaded and making parts faster than a horizontal with more parts. I agree once it's set up it definitely saves you time and money for repeat jobs or high volume.
Depends on the type of work you do. If it’s usually just setup in 3axis vises, a horizontal with a standard 4 side double station vise tombstone would be pretty easy to setup and run 16x as many parts as a single vise in a VMC between operator loading
Really nice video and what a beautiful machine, What is your opinion on the minimum number of tools in your ATC for basic un -attended machining?
Would you be able to incorporate some high strength magnets in your fixturing to help hold your parts in place better?
You mentioned hearing the tool life on the lights-on machines... you could attach a vibration sensor to the okuma to record the 'sound' and have a program that compares the normal vibrations to the current/finished job. Would require some learning to find the normal job variations vs a tool that is worn out.
Similar processes are used to monitor mega sized Presses for car bodies etc.
There's tool wear macros you can use. The sound idea is neat, but if a part is loaded wrong, it could trigger it. Plus the amount of screwing around you'd need to do.
Use + style cast tombstones, much easier to do side work. We had load monitoring set so dull facemill inserts in aluminum would trigger. Use full length set screw and mitee bite fixtures so you can use bar stock then saw the parts off; op2 or 3 go in dedicated fixtures. You can swap fixtures and be running in 10 minutes. Get max tooling, 300+, all tools stay in the machine and your programmers only add new tools as a last resort.
Interesting that on larger HMC's they have a tombstone loading bay where the tombstone is tilted so the pallet is vertical and each face is in a vmc type orientation for easy part placement.
I was just wondering, that would it be feasible solution to have chip crusher and magnetic separator to separate ferrous chips from aluminum chips? That way there would be no more mixed waste. That would also make it possible to recover some of the coolant that is carried out with chips, so it could be reused after filtering?
Just throwing some ideas that came to my mind. Sorry about my english, it’s not my native language.
Hi John ! Great video and great insights ! I have a silly question: if you had a cnc router rigid enough to mill steel parts, and the dimensions of the table of that router would be large enough to accomodate the equivalent of the 24 parts you can load in your tombstones, would that be easier for the operator to deal with the machine ? Forget about money, footprint or rigidity for a moment; it it is just the process I am talking about here. What would you make of it ?
For your tool ID problem I recommend (in the tool data library on tool data page) naming the tools by the part numbers in use if they all use different tools. For example if my part number #0001 needs T1-T12, I name all those tools #0001 in the data page so no one else in the shop messes with them and I also of course make sure the header in the program notes what they are. Then part #0002 would use T13-T24 all named #0002 etc. Unfortunately if you’re using a lot of the same tools on multiple parts with a common tool list it makes that harder in which case I’d probably keep an excel file on the computer right next to the machine with all the active tools, what they’re used for, and date of last change etc. We got our two MB4000H at my job and it was a big learning curve for us
Yes gravity is a pain loading a horizontal. Why I got bored one day and had a tombstone we weren't using and got the ok to modify it. Took one of the Pierson pallets apart and installed it into the tombstone. Think we're going to do a whole tombstone now or have one made to accept the pallet system. Just way easier to load on the bench.
Hearing the gravity pains at 10:50. What if your tombstone became a vertical setup? Instead of fighting gravity your team could load in the parts in perpenicular to the horizontal norm.
If you add strong magnets to your fixtures it would make the change out much easier.
*Explain how a strong magnet would help in that given situation. Because sounds to me like it would be very difficult to set blanks in place. And have you even thought about the pile of chips that would build up and never leave the working area?*
Any thoughts on the VF2-YT + small pallet pool from Haas?
HalloBuddy :) im from Poland i hear that is problem with gravity of the parts and i have a idea ;) mayby make some costums magnetic holders, 2 side magnets on arm with "knees", somethink like in the precision clock holder for setup parts in axis, you can make, moving joints like in arm form this tool im telling, and screw 2 (on/off)magnets stands on both sides. for small parts you are making it can hold it i thinkand, then uscrew it and screw it in another calmp. thats a cheapest test for it, think abaut it by your self, You are a smart guy ;)
Now that you have the Horizontal. What do you prefer 5 axis Vertical with pallet changer vs Horizontal with pallet change????
I know it's expensive, but check out OK vise for your horizontal
So, theoretically, you could put that in the code then; for it to, if broken tool, move on to said other operation or whatnot. Is that possible to do?
Can’t you make removable jig plates. Can preload parts and stops parts fall weight or crane dependant
How feasible would it be to have the tombstones tip 90 degrees outward so you have better access and a flat surface? Probably a big hill to climb, but maybe worth it.
Would it be possible to get a wider tombstone that extend to.use more x travel
Reminds me of the Haas Ec-400 !!! Just way bigger lol
14:44 why arent microphones or vibration detectors used to trigger a bad tool alerts or auto adjust machine speeds/feeds to fix it?
In a previous video you talked about trying to find a way to switch the bins between materials but, I wonder if it would make sense to go at it a bit differently and forget about segregating the materials at the source... What if you were to separate materials later. If you only have steel and aluminum on that machine, you could have a magnetic sorting machine to have that problem fixed.
Anyhow, that may also be a stupid idea...
Okuma are maybe the best machines out there , the only one that is on the same level of precision and repeatability is Makino, good choice 👍
Do you like Mori?
If you can do a time study on a tool you can set a life of that tool and change it before it fails. Before running a part you could see if your tools have enough time or call ups to finish your cycle.
My thoughts too. In my industry (auto part manufacturing) a lot of "short lived" consumables are managed that way; for things like weld tips and the like we'll require a change (throw an alarm that prevents a new machine cycle from starting) after a certain number of parts/welds/automatic refurbishments. Not sure if/how one would implement it on a CNC though... in my world everything has a PLC and such enforces consumable change alarms.
The trials needed to get the "lifespans" established are initially tedious but being able to nail down a good number is worth it in the end (optimize costs while ensuring finished good quality).
I wonder if you guys are looking into using the Renishaw TS-34 tool setter to take diameter measurements. Okuma seems really adamant to not do it, that you will break the setter's stylus, but I am not 100% buying that. The setter can do it, and it also has a higher sensitivity setting so deflection is reduced. I understand maybe not using a huge face mill, but a 1/2" end mill?
In my 34 years of being a machinist by trade, renishaw probes get jockeyed around so much in tool changing I just never trusted them for measuring parts on a HMC, it seems like I spent time calibrating them, that’s my opinion
With such big ATC's you need some kind of (simple) tool managment software, or you always will loose and forget tools. We startet in Excel, switched over to Access, then wrote a HTML5 app and finally we grew into a proper software, wich is fully compatible wit our cam solution. Its one of these 1000 steps you have to do when you switch over too big ATCs and automation.
Maybe if you put in a electro magnet in line on your conveyor to pick up any steel mixed in the aluminium that could safe you a lot of money
I had to get to the point where I treated secondary recurring income streams as a customer to finally get it right. I am now retired and our waste mgmt. dept paid for my entire HR added benifits programs with income exceeding 1.4MM per year (2011). What was a game changer for me was finally setting a do by date for each minor item I put off so that the issue would be solved by it getting attention within a date certain. A snowflake or rain drop eventualy becomes the Mississippi river. Cash streams that we own are often ignored by most commonly stated reason I do not have the time or capital, when in fact very few things are more important than maximizing recurring small income streams permanently. I too was in an industry with huge capital needs a single printing press could cost mid seven figures and become obsolete in 10 years. What I am saying is find your way to getting small income streams fixed/maximized and it will pay you from then on and not be on your todo list. Love you videos. Ray Stormont
Could you not put your SMW vices on a large 22x22 fixture plate on a horizontal surface (so you aren’t fighting gravity) and then mount the entire plate to the tombstone with the parts already ready to go? If 22x22 is too heavy then smaller plates in a grid.
Another benefit of this is you could have a stack of pre-loaded fixtures prepared for faster loading between cycles.
I've always been a fan of what I call "part trays". It is the best way to go with mass production. I made a tool tray for my verticle, so the machine loads and unloads the mag on its own for the major setup.
Please tell me you guys understand dwo and tcpc, of i had a dollar for every shop I had to teach it too I would be well on my way
You can put tool life on each tool either by cut time or qty (for holes). I use mastercam for all that though.
You can also flag a bad part after a broken tool. It should pull up a redundant tool and move on. But I talk to Hartwig for apps support like that...
You can model and name each tool number on okumas. takes awhile but easy to know and find whats in the machine.
Run your last part from every job first thing in the morning, before it sits, machine is ready to bring in and run every part, just do one of each part on a timer at 8am when you come in, so you hear it running the last parts. No intervention required.
Some tips from someone that works in a high production aerospace facility. Don't use m6 for you toolchange. Use a subprogram instead, in this subprogram you can do al kind of things. Some examples: break detection on selected tools, you can do this by calling up the tool in the spindel in the sub an check if its in the tool table you write in that sub, if that's the case the machine will check te tool. For some tools you maybe want to measure the diameter, you can also define that in the sub.
One thing you can also do is write a head program with different program calls to call the part program. Is this head program you can define a lot of things, for example, which part on wich side and how many parts. You can program one part for example bottom left and put in a amount in a sub how many you want to make, your tool will finish one part, calls out the sub where the amount is defined patterns the toolpath to the second part and counts until you finished the amount of parts. Then changing the tool and start al over on the second tool.
*This is all done on Siemens 840d controllers but I'm sure it can be done on fanuc to.
Also a tip for tool numbers
1234567
12-> machine number
34-> what kind of tool
567-> the actual tool
So if you are on machine 15
For tool a shellmill ->09
Actual tool->264
T1509264
I've got an android app that I designed ten years ago which will do all that and then some. It has a Tool list creator, with a tool library and editor, along with setup sheets, setup pics, program numbers and Gcode program file.
I love Fusion360 but I’m very surprised that you’ve come this far without graduating to MasterCAM
*That would be a HUGE step backwards.*
@@John-ik2eg is John from AutoDesk? 😂
@@dirtboy896
Signs you are using a dated, inefficent, legacy code, CAM program:
You have to constantly chain.
Your machining operations manager frequently make operations go dirty for no reason, especially with bigger files.
You don't use feature recognition on your prismatic parts because your feature recognition is more like automated chaining and is an afterthought.
Big dialog boxs often need to be dragged out of the way to see your part model.
You don't have included G code solid cut part machine simulation that runs in the same UI as your CAM.
No demo version that does everything but post is available to new employees or anyone that wants it.
The CAM company doesn't offer free, extensive, 1 hour training videos and wants to charge you instead.
You don't have tools that limit tool changes and limit tombstone rotation.
Setting up solid cut part machine simulation on tombstones is a massive time waster and not easy to do for multiple, different parts.
You drag tiles around and have no machining operations tree.
Youre saying this about MasterCAM?
Have you gotten into using a cheap security system to look back and see/ hear if tools are having issues?
Just kidding. You answered the question with the camera.
Welcome! how are you? My name is Nasser and I like you very much. I follow all your videos and activities. I love this field and I hope to learn more from you and how much I hope to work with you and to be my teacher. I work on Solidworks and do programming on Solidcam. What do you recommend and can you take me to work with you
Hello,
Does anyone know the ball park price for this machine?
Thank you.
It's hard to get a price without asking for a quote, but I'm guessing 450. That is probably a low guess, but that's just the machine.
John look into ok vise
Rail system
Hi how are you Do you give one on one classes
Why did NYC buy an Okuma and not a Kitamura, Mori, Toyoda, Mazak. Methods, Yasda, etc..
Don't want to infer that you and/or your staff are incompetent, but, as a manufacturing engineer for a world class ISO 1000 company twenty-five years ago, I easily resolved virtually every issue you raised about horizontal CNCs. There is expert help out there, seek it, AND MAKE MONEY.
Are you really in NYC? What's the company name? I am a HAAS LI tech
if part loading is a problem, why don’t you build a modular system? That’s what you do for a living, isn’t it?
My question is where do you get work? what is your biggest customer?
He has his own products. Best place to be.
Sounds to me like you need a way to turn the tombstones horizontally and rotate as needed. Either that or come up with precision located guides that accept and align fixtures as you put them in, without them becoming misaligned because of gravity.
Y'all have your work cut out for you.
Spindle load can clearly be monitored automatically. You run a job that's good. Record the load. Then if the load goes out of a given range an alert is raised.
But microphones are cheap. Why aren't CNC manufacturers offering microphones that monitor the noise? You run the good parts, learn the noise. Then if you get an abnormal change of noise, then alerts are raised. It's all about good parts mean you learn the noise. When you get a bad part, you tell the system, here's a bad part. Can you tell from the noise, from the load?
Must cost a fortune buying all these machines and equipment?
my gwad! 20-30 gallons of concentrate for 1 machine.... damn. My 3 haas eat about a 5 gallon bucket of concentrate every 6 months....
Don't forget it only has one spindle... So can ONLY machine one pallet at a time.... A lot of people overlook this when they buy a multi pallet system....
You should consider hiring someone with experience in high production horizontal machining. All of your gripes have simple solutions that are costing you money due to your lack of experience.
Dude, even with ball locks, changing up fixtures on one of those takes at least a full shift. Thankfully, you can keep the shit buzzing away most of the time.
so, "WHY" is what someone says when encountering limitations of Y-axis travel.
We use bags for our Gaylords to contain the the wet material. Then you could get rid of the spill container. Thus lowering the box maybe you wouldn't have to notch the Gaylord to get it under the chip conveyor. Then the gaylords don't get soaked with coolant and you may be able to reuse them.
Your scrap problem is an easy fix - just buy a second one, use one for steel and one for aluminum. 😉
The best or times, the worst of times! It's great BUT...
Typo in video preview image? Buying a "Horizonal" ? no "t" ... No biggie, just thought you might want to know.
1st
It all kind of looks like a mad and pointless escalating race against low priced just good enough parts cranked out of prideless I don't care shops.
Is it worth it or is it just what y'all have chosen to simply stay busy? Is it worth it?
It just seems like competition is damn fierce and profit margins are way too low. Am I right? Is it all worth it?
Is your shop just treading water? You're not profitable, are you?
Thanks for taking the time out of very busy days to share with the rest of us! You're very appreciated!!!! :)
What makes you think his business is treading water? Did I miss something?
@@poetac15 It just sounds to me like they might be. I could be wrong but it sure doesn't sound like it's easy street.
He did say that they probably would not have made it this last year if they hadn't purchased that horizontal machine. That's a pretty unequivocal statement.
@@artmckay6704 He's mentioned on the BOM podcast a few big deals that the horizontal was key to enabling (both by doing the work itself and by freeing up other machines). Not a "we're going out of business without it" situation, but rather "we're growing a ton and it was a key reason for that growth". So imo it sounds like SMW is doing very well. I dunno why you think their margins are low, they sell a good product at a decent price (not china prices but not Schunk prices either). :)