This KNOWLEDGE Will Ease Your Pain and Suffering When Attempting to Machine Perfect Parts
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2024
- Get rid of Chatter in YOUR Parts
How to get rid of chatter in your parts. Travis walks you through how to get rid of chatter and achieve a better surface finish on your CNC machines. The tips and tricks he teaches today are on DN Solution’s TTSYYB Twin Turret Lathe using Kennametal Boring Bars and Inserts. From a 227 Ra to a 22 Ra. We hope this video provides the techniques you need to get rid of chatter in your machine shop.
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Why do I feel like this video was intended to be an internal training video for Barry and some how got leaked on UA-cam 😂
Whatever Trevor!
@@barrysetzer 😂 there definitely wasn’t any chatter on that grill though 💪🏼
haha
So if it wasn't for Bary we would not have seen this great video 😅 Big thanks to Bary jaja.
Why dont you guys hire a lathe operator who knows what hes doing instead of making some trial and error video?
Chatter, one of the most common nuisances in the machine shop. Great video, Travis!
Why can't they wait for the tea breaks!
As a experienced oil field machinist used to doing deep bore work
If your looking for a good finish use a 55 degree D insert and back bore that same cut from inside to the face
Chips will stay behind tool
No chip rub or damage and it will be way better
Sorry, but is your name Titan of CNC? Didn't think so.
I find it interesting that the original comment did not discredit, nor refute Titan. Came in, gave reasonable advice and said where it came from and you all decided to immediately attack them.
@@christopherjones7191 Shut your trap, Globalist.
Things that weren't addressed were taper in that long of a cut and going up in bar size in addition to the aforementioned insert geometry.
@@a-iz4pg Thank you for your comment! I'm with you 100%! I'm so sick of experienced machinists acting like they know everything. I dont need experienced machinists offering machining advice based on their years/decades of experience. I come to TOCNC to watch their videos and hopefully learn some new machining techniques. I dont come to TOCNC to learn new machining techniques from people who aren't part of Titans of CNC. These people who spam the comment section with different tips and tricks that they've learned over decades of trial and error are so obnoxious.
I'm glad you spoke up and let all of them know that WE DONT CARE ABOUT HOW THEY MACHINE PARTS!!
We dont want any of the knowledge these people have gained from decades of on the job experience. We only want TOCNC knowledge bc nobody on this planet knows better than TOCNC.
So please stop giving us different ways to tackle a machining problem!
🙄🙄🙄🤦♂
And fyi...if it went over your head...This is a condescending sarcastic comment. Just bc youre not intelligent enough to realize that its always worth listening to an experienced machinist who's offering his knowledge.....please just stfu because I (as well as most others her) appreciate when others offer different techniques.
The comparison between the carbide shank and a dampened shank would be very cool.
Might be a future video my friend. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@travisjarrett2355unfortunately not everyone can afford solid carbide shank tooling. How much was that boring bar? Easily several hundred am I correct?
@@justin_704 If you're not a hobbyist and have a business you need it you buy it, simple as that.
@@travisjarrett2355 I'm by no means an expert machinist, but i have had to use some clapped out gear before and i experimented with lead tape from a golf shop before, and bitumen car body dampening foil.... it's actually quite amazing what a bit of dampening can do.
Hell... not recommended, especially on a cnc, but just pinching the bar with fingers is an enormous difference
@@travisjarrett2355 u aint helping yourself using a 80 degres insert, go for 35 or 55 so you minimize the contact between the insert and the bar
Solid advice Travis. You can tell a lot of time was involved making this super informative. Great work editors!👏
Incredible attention to detail in this video. Awesome video Travis and great job Tyler!
Perhaps one of the most useful videos of the last year and a half!👍
Thank you! Appreciate that!
Thank you for this test! Such good information! When you are in deep in a job and run into these issues, it's one of those things you wish yourself you slowed down and took the time to run a test like this. It takes a huge amount of resources to run test like this. Much appreciated Travis! Great job!
Thank you guys for this video. Seeing this testing/process using fixed and changing variables to teach us how to solve a problem was super helpful. PLEASE do more videos like this!
Great video, it’s so useful to see the actual results of doing things different ways rather than just being given a rule of thumb
There is only one way,...the right way
Okuma variable spindle (M694/M695) works awesome for getting rid of chatter. I still do everything I can with tooling/ programming but I haven’t had to duct tape a strap clamp to a boring bar since I started using variable spindle 😂.
This is an excellent video! Going to use it for training. Thank you Titans of CNC Machining!!!
Great information! Excellent video as always, Travis!
Good video Travis! I haven't ran a CNC lathe for many, many years. But this video walks you through what can take months and maybe years of learning how to apply the right holder, the right insert, the right feed, the right spindle speed to achieve the correct surface finish in about 15 minutes. It is a must watch for all newbies. Learn something new and save the time and the headache of learning the hard way.
Awesome video! Can't express how valuable this test was to a home machinist. Thank you Titans!
I learned this the hard way. Was getting a lot of chatter in my parts, so I switched the feed to .005 ipr and .035 D.O.C. For a .0086 radius carbide cutter. Immediately I got a 23.56 RA. On the hard parts, I use ceramic inserts with a .016 radius. .005 D.O.C and .005 ipr. Got a 15.8 R.A.
Wow! Thank you Travis! This video was great and will help me on me on my machinist journey! You're the best!
That learning is so awesome!! Thank You Titans of CNC.I would like to learn more from you,guys!😊
This was a lot of work on your part. Thank you for making the effort as the various approaches and the results are very informative.
This video came out amazing! Good work Travis and the editing team! You can tell a lot of time went into this
It was definitely a full house effort.
Nothing worse than when a machinist spends a lot of time on getting rid of chatter 😜 2 out 9 good parts isn't ideal either. Some days be like that though. 😄
That was very useful. Thank you. Nice and compact explanation in one source
for best results i always go (if possible ) to VNMG inserts that 35 deg and .008 C/R works like a charm
The shop cop is teaching us to make great quality parts. Thank you sir.
So, the moral of the story - start with the most expensive tool imaginable - a solid carbide boring bar.
What ismore expensive? A job that you lost because of vibration, or another grinding process, or a more expensive tool?
Yeah not sure the point of this resonated with me either. He dropped the second last one on federate after saying In the beginning that we wouldn’t. Feel like could have played with the cutting parameters on the steel boring bar to make that cut better to be honest
He did not use the most expensive tool out there. He didn't go and get the carbide reinforced Vibe damped bar.
That carbide bar looks more like fun, not boring :D
buy once cry on... ce you drop it and need a new one. lom
Excellent video. Well done and good samples. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing this great experimentation.
It would also help to turn the OD after finishing the bore so the material is more rigid
I remember we had boring bars that were dampened and also some that was a split combo dampened and heavy metal. But else, every lathe was equipped with Sandvik Capto holders and dampened boring bars. It's another world in comparison to the old shop I was at
I work at a pump repair shop and I have to make stainless pump sleeves from time to time. We don't have a wide array of tooling nor easy access to exotic cutters. The best way I have found to reduce chatter is the good old threading bar.
Excellent video. Thank you for posting this. Very informative. Feels like a 'project farm' video for machinists.
Great video Travis!
Great work Travis!
With a steel bar anything over a 4 to 1 ratio will chatter as a general rule.
I’ve gone up to 12 to 1 with a solid carbide bar or even higher with a Sandvik Devibrator boring bar. Great video. Thanks for all your hard work and expertise!
11 to 1 i was running personally, VBMT cermet insert, 0.1mm above center line, steel bar.
Shhhhh! I have a feeling they're keeping silent about those tools (pun intended) since they work so much better than even carbide. Certainly in another category entirely when it come to price as well though. :/
@@Dyna78 are there even oil filled bars in like 6mm or 10? or closer? Same for the spring ones
@@bosanaz2010 I have seen oil dampened 'silent' tools as small as 10mm shank diameter, but not sure if anyone makes any smaller than that. For anything smaller than that, I would probably use a solid carbide bar from Circle Tools or Micro 100.
CNC lathe guy here. I use a method “tuning the boring bar” by adjusting the screws in the holder (front screws loose, back screws tight). I always use full slot holders so my set screws engage with the bar directly. I also usually try to run a finish pass of about .007”. My chatter problems have been heavily mitigated.
thats interesting, being a manual lathe monkey I always tighten the toolpost screws gutten tight to increase rigitity anywhere I can - that and slow the speed and sometimes rest a nylon mallet on the bar or the work xD..
I do both - cnc and manual lathe. One hard lesson I’ve had to learn is many of the tricks and ideas aren’t transferable. Things that always worked on my manual machines don’t work in the cnc machine and vice versa. I do a lot of aerospace bushings and it’s *always* deep bores in long thin parts. Chatter is a nightmare…. I still don’t know enough. And the good tools are eye wateringly expensive.
It’s also a resonance issue - you’re basically de-tuning a tuning fork so it sounds ‘dead’.
Spindle speed variation helps me a lot on some jobs. It is impressive how just a little of variation can completely remove chatter
Great Video Team!
More please!
Just like this 👌
Something to also take into consideration with insert geometry and chatter, a rule of thumb, you must go as deep as the radius of your insert in order to reduce chatter, 👍
Great experiment and explanation! I would like to see the milling version of this experiment please
Thanks for this video. I've been battling with some 304 stainless lately.
Awesome Video! Thank you.
This video is gold. I saved it away thank you.
Great video on chatter being a lathe machinist first chatter was my mortal enemy, and like you said. There is infinite variables in what causes chatter! And would take so much more time to cover it all, when in doubt, keep it short and stout!
Thank you for this information 👍🏻😀
Now this is the kinda vid I sub'd for! 👍
More videos like this plz .. this one was great
Fantastic content! Thank you!
Great video. I would have liked to see you adjust the parameters to try and maximize the surface finish on the steel and heavy metal
Great video!
Great video! Thank you for share it!
Thank you for the good video. Thanks to you, I got a lot of help 😍
So interesting! Love the content! A1!
my shop won't buy anything smaller than 1/32" R inserts. my supervisor doesn't want to be bothered with improvements to the shop or ordering stuff so even what we do carry runs out a lot and we still get told to get parts done somehow.
which is why i'm leaving manufacturing and going into IT. hopefully i can make enough money to put a CNC in my garage and start a little shop doing custom gun stuff and R&D for my own pet projects.
"Thanks Donny". You guys cracked me up there.
great example. many thanks!
Thanks a lot for videos like this
Sounds like Jessie running a mill! Nice video Travis!!!
Hey guy I got a question.
I’m running a lathe and mill right now at the same time . I had the saw cutting a big piece of 14 inch stainless and I programmed a machine for another machinist . The run time on the lathe is 45 minutes . On the mill is 2 hours and the saw like 40 minutes I sat down and put my feet up on the table and watched this video and my boss came out and said “MUST BE NICE, I wish i can be tweeting and pushing buttons all day”
Should I retaliate and pop his tires? Or watch another video?
My go do is always lower speed, then higher feed.
And or a sharper tool
I think i should add thats on a manual lathe
Классное видео, рад что вы продолжаете просто объяснять сложные вещи.
Amazing quality video
Machining in all my years for the best Ra in boring finishes was to use a burnishing tool. You can get a 2Ra once burnished just leave the bore .0005 to .001 undersize. then burnish it.
Been a machinist for nearly 15 years would have started the same place you said you would with the carbide bar with the .4mm tip but watched the full video great video nice to actually see the differences side by side
And if in doubt rapidly changing the spindle speed up and down can help to reduce chatter with roughing lol
@@intheheatoflisbon5311 I've had great results with this technique. Unfortunately, a lot of older Mori Seiki lathes would not allow any manual spindle speed changes once running the program (maybe a parameter setting?), which was crippling to getting good results. I figure it's only a matter of time before some machine control manufacturer designs it into their system to have a sensor detect chatter and automatically vary spindle speed randomly to eliminate chatter. Cheap and easy if it's built in, and would work wonders for threading too.
@@Dyna78 I prefer doosans to moris for that reason been using ez guide recently but still prefer the "old school" g76 for threading stuck in my ways you could go long hand and fire in some speed changes although it would be a long programme
Well done video. I have found that I just bite the bullet and almost always purchase the carbide bars. I have also found that the .008 NR inserts are great but you better have the grade and chip breaker selection right or your always turning inserts. Great job Trevor. Udaman!!!!
LOL I see Beau Nogo made an appearance! It's about time!
Great knowledge sharing! Love it. I had to beat my head against the wall for years to learn how to combat it. One thing that helps the most is rubber bands and or sound deadening mat like dynamat.
Just for the noise sound? Or for a better finish?
@@albertaoridge Both. It absorbs vibrations and helps eliminate resonance. Chatter isn't just vibration while cutting. It is actually caused but a resonance frequency in the material and tool. That is why common strategies are to change tool length (unsupported from the holder) or to fluctuate rpms in the spindle. There is actually a tool you can get that will test for the frequencies that cause resonance. Then you can find the optimal speed and feed for the tool based on that data. Happy chip making friend. 😊
A guy I work with told me they would fill thin wall tubes with coolant and put a bung on both ends for chatter free OD turning. I'm definitely keeping that one in mind.
Just a couple of weeks ago, I had a small job where I had to do very similar parts as you used in your video. It was so frustrating since we didn't have the right (or best) tools for the job, and ordering new ones wasn't an option. The only thing that worked for me was reducing the speed by half and almost tripling the feed rate. Damn, that was scary at first since my spindle chuck could only grab about ⅙ of the part's length. Even though the whole job was really frustrating, never ever had I learned so much about inside turning and the capability of my tools and machines.
Scary to step out of the comfort zone huh?
@@drafty0183 seeing boring bars bend when entering the material sure is out of my confort zone 🤣
Awesome video guys!! 👍 now let’s see one about the do’s and don’t on milling chatter
We actually did one and it’s on our channel
I have had some chatter on some parts that didn't require a fine finish. It was those time I wish I could replicate those patterns the chatter kicked out.. looked awesome
great video. 🔥
Great vid
Fantastic 🤩
Great video! Plenty of information in a digestible format
Really wish you guys could get Mike Rowe on the podcast, I think he'd be an AMAZING guest. Awesome video as a lathe guy, keep up the amazing work!
Thanks
Thanks for sharing this problems. How about shape of chip in this case?
Extremely valuable information, Thank you. I wonder what your feed rate was on that Final Cut and you did not say anything about RPM most of the time.
This is the first titan's video I've seen that is worth a shit.
Good job.
we always use big radius for roughing plastic parts on a lathe and the littel one for the rest. the rest is always 0.1mm and in duroplast you get an really nice surface all the time.
an M516 A10 V1 would make it a lot easier. do a test video with dssv. really helped me out a lot with those long parts. cool video!
More lathe videos please!
rubber bands and solder wire help too
lol. I have actually used many rubber bands. They do help with the harmonics in holder. You are one of the many few who know this trick. Amen to you.👍
I need to see the readings on chatter-free surfaces at the chuck, because feed rate and cutter radius leave specific roughness on their own. Then maybe subtract those to isolate the chatter-induced component. Also compare with theoretical chatter-free roughness...
And that is how you get from one sheet to the full binder in the beginning of the video
Very intresting clip, I would try v shape inserts with grounded leading edge, maybe additiinal mass on OD and last if nothig help vibration dumping boring bar
I'd love to see this repeated using the carbide bar and the 2 smallest nose radii, but with different DOC, feeds, and speeds to get the highest MRR without chatter. Allow the surface finish to be a little rougher (50? 75?) but go after a high, chatter-free MRR.
Im more impressed with seeing a mitutoyo surface roughness gage where the batteries actually work. It seems like every one I've ever used needed the power chord plugged in to work.
I usually start backing off SFM and turning up feedrate, but with some parts, it's difficult to manage, sometimes a HSS tool helps, because they are sharper. there is a company making HSS indexable inserts, they are awesome for long turning work.
Good video sir. First, I would chose a carbide b/b as big as you can, Stick out as short as you can and indicate the b/b. Second, use .008 Radius. This will do it.
I believe depth of cut matters on a finish pass depending on tool nose radius. That's why a .008 tool nose radius will have lass chatter than a .031 on a .03 depth of cut. Give it a .06 depth of cut and the .031 tool wont chatter as much.
I would like to see you guys remake this, and the variable you change is your work holding to a 6 jaw chuck
Does DN solutions have a spindle speed variation feature like Haas machines do to break up the harmonics? Had good success with that option in the past.
Ive never ever had the luxury of having an mx ra of 32😅 thats ultra rough but thanks for the tipps i'll keep them in mind
If your doing alot of components you will be changing tips very often as a .008" rad will wear alot quicker, but for small batches it holds up to achieve a good Ra finish
it'd be nice if you guys could also do tips/tricks for non cnc machining
What helps for me as well when you do a finish pas, to increase the depth of cut
You are exactly right. Especially with a long hang out of boring bar.
A lot of things are wrong, but at least I see your point.
You can make a journal from that ❤
i do not have any carbide boring bars in the shop. i would of liked to see the same feed and speed on all set to see how much did the carbide bar and rad helped. The 1st row with the .008 rad would it have given you a better finish with the speed you use on the last path? cool video either way
Another thing that sometimes works with boring bars is to tighten the second screw on holder and on the first screw only put enough pressure on it to deaden the string/ stop the harmonics
I notice you aren't using clamshell sleeves. We've found switching to those has provided a stiffer tooling setup and we were able to prove that via tap testing the tool to show the stability curves. Does Kennametal not offer bars and sleeves like this?
We've used them before and you are right, they are definitely helpful. We did not want to introduce too many variables for one video though. Thanks for mentioning those.
Honest question. What is the calculation you guys use to figure out what feed rate you need for the specific tool nose radius to get a desired finish? I have one, and i built the calculator into google sheets and I'm coming up with a 1 radius (.0156) requires .00328 max for a 32 finish.
Thanks for any response
We turn differentially heat treated steel parts with instantaneous transitions between 32 and 60+ HRC. The answer is patience, nothing else works.
Sometimes THAT isn't even enough.