Why Do Milwaukee 8 Cylinders CRACK? | Part 2 M8 vs Twin Cam - Kevin Baxter - Pro Twin Performance
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- Why do Milwaukee 8 Cylinders Break or Crack? Harley M8 vs Twin Cam. Which is better? Is the Twin Cam Harley better than Milwaukee 8? Or is the Harley Milwaukee 8 better than the Twin Cam? This video is part 2 of a series focusing on 2 Skunkworks complete custom engine builds. A Harley M8 124 vs a Twin Cam 107. Learn what you should do to improved your changes of building a successful Harley Performance engine.
View Part 1 of this series at • Harley M8 vs Twin Cam ...
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/ @kevinbaxter
Pro Twin Performance and Baxter's Garage
723 W Winder Industrial Pkwy
Winder, GA 30680
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One VERY important fact to point out. This was a very common problem on STOCK M8 engines in 2017/early 2018. And that little lip, was the only time I've ever seen that, on ANY cylinder made by ANYONE for a Harley engine. Never existed on any other engine format for HD. Also...understand. When you buy a "big bore" cylinder from HD...it is a stock cylinder, bored larger.
Kevin Baxter Do you suspect that these m8 engines are forged and made in china the heads, cylinders ,pistons cases ext..but then harley brings then to the factorys only to assemble them in house or are these parts being forged and made at the American factorys?.
well, pretty much every component is cast...not forged. truth is, HD very closely guards who makes their stuff if its not them. At one point, i knew exactly who casted all their engine components...not sure if it has changed. And im the type if i dont know...i dont speak.
Kevin Baxter Are you allowed to say were they were made before?India, china, Germany, or mexico? lol gota be one of those 😂
Cylinder, head, case castings were domestic....but that was YEARS ago that i knew that for certain. People in china and mexico will make things EXACTLY the way you tell them to. Parts from those countries arent bad....but when someone wants something made cheap, they go there...and those people make those items EXACTLY like they are asked to....and they get blamed for bad designs from cheap US companies. Just one example...some of the BEST carbon fiber components come out of chinese factories....no joke. Even $7000 to $10000 race bicycle frames come from chinese factories...and they are AWESOME. I know...trust me. LOL
Kevin Baxter Thats interesting i have always had bad experience with chinese products especially tools. i have since always had usa made tools especially older stuff its the best from drill presses to grinders i have machinary built in the 50s to the 80s that still works as good as new today. Im sure alot of your machining tools in your shop arent chinese 😂
Hope I'm not out of line but come on people. Over 13,000 views with only 477 thumbs up. Kevin is doing his job to provide us with great content and we, in turn, should at least click the "thumbs up" to help his channel.
Thank you very much Kerry. Youre the best man.
Reliable engine performance is far more important than that little horsepower increase.
A blown up engine makes 0 horsepower.
I AM 1000% with you sir. Sell me a reliable, durable, smooth running machine, and I'm your loyalest customer.
This is why I'll keep my 20+ year old EVO powered Heritage Softtail. 100,000 mile motor!
Harleys last best engine.
Right on! Evo was a great one for sure.
How many Panhead riders does it take to change a lightbulb?
5, one to change the bulb and the other four to stand around and talk about how much better the old bulb was.
Good one Duke! If it doesn't have a leather belt drive and slipper clutch it's no Harley! Eves rule.
My 30 yr old Evo I will not ever sell, EVER.
Kevin, you and your crew really get down to brass tacks on engine building and why things work or don’t work. You are providing people with the knowledge to avoid the bad stuff and quite frankly the bad shops that will just throw together any old build. I said it before and I’ll say it again. You provide the very best insight on engine builds anywhere. I’m a couple years away but when I pull the trigger I’m heading south to see you for my build. Thanks again for what you do. 👍
Thank you very much for the kind words and support! I look forward to it sir!
My 94 FXDL has over 100k. Still runs. AMF saved Harleys bacon. Towards the end of the TC, they had a good engine. Bought my second "new" Harley in October 2022.
My new FXBBS is great. All it gets is a pipe,a tune, and high flow air filter element. Pretty salty at 114ci. Rode Triumphs for years. Still have a couple.
My first Harley Davidson was a 1940 knuck chopper. Well, only the engine was 1940...
62 transmission, jocky shift, 1957 frame, a girder fork, and damn near no brakes!!!
As a guy this is so hard to comprehend. I’ve always thought “Short Skirts” were always better! Lol I know, bad joke...
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Awesome! Thanks Robert. Great joke!
Just pretend the harley is a fat girl
My 2019 RG is a stock bore 107 with just light mods. I don’t have any worries. Makes plenty enough torque to move her down the road just fine.
Excellent.
I gave up on HD after they sold me a TC88 and failed to mentioned their flawed design for cam chain tensioners. So, they made that sale, and lost a customer that would have bought at least 5 more motorcycles from them. Great informative video.
there were many surprised people in that era...still are.
Great video Kevin, with great information. Thanks for taking the time to share, I am learning lots. Cheers
Glad you enjoyed it Thank you very much.
Great video. Love these UA-cam algorithms that enables me to find channels like this.
Glad you like them! Welcome...and thank you mark
Personally always makes me think about S&S be done with it
S&S are the cheapest of cheep quality wise
This is what happens when you take factory parts and modify them to go beyond what they are made for.
Double thumbs up on this video. I cringe when I hear M8 owners talking about increasing their displacement with HD cylinders, pistons, and an uploaded tune when there are much better options available. Nothing worse when your bang for the buck is followed by a crack and a crunch.
Yes sir....nail on head. Thanks Kerry!
This is why I keep my m8 stock 20,000 on it still running amazing
I do love watching your videos they are very well presented . I especially like these M8 vs twin cam videos because they make me feel good about keeping hold of my good old reliable 88 model Evo.
Thank you very much!
That makes so much sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to make this series. How much did you enjoy cutting those cylinders in half? haha
well, i do that a lot actually. heads, engine cases, etc. only way to really know what youre working with. wanted my viewers to see it as well. glad you enjoyed it Chris. Yeah...its fun to peel back the curtain for sure.
I'm glad I didn't have mine bored over. I had a heavy breather, wood knight prowler 22x cam, and short shots installed along with a full tune by the dealer before I took delivery. All covered by the warranty forever in writing.
Performance can be very reliable...often vastly improving on stock components...provided its done proper.
For the prices Harley is calling up, they should deliver damn good quality. Looking at at my 27 year old sportster.
Excellent video & visuals Kevin!
Many thanks! appreciate it!
I use to see this at Chrysler. I worked in powertrain. We use to bore out cylinders sometimes if a casting was bad we’d bore right through a side wall. 🙈🤔. Good info
Thanks Kevin. I always enjoy your videos and alway learn something.
Thank you very much.
Is cracking a problem with the stock factory cylinder or only with the factory cylinder that has been bored out to a bigger size? I'm asking because I'm intrested in purchasing a new bike with the new M8 engine.
it was a problem with the 17 and 18 models on completely stock cyls. not so much on the models after. im still investigating the issue to see what, if anything, changed.
I love watching videos on people figuring out what wrong with Harley's.
Makes me glad I bought a 01 Honda Valkyrie 1500.
It depresses me at how low the quality is on these expensive bikes..
Great video and good info, I have not had problems yet (knock on wood) boring the 107 to 4.125 but as you stated it takes a lot of patience to get that spigot bored and honed to the correct clearance. I believe you are correct in your assessment of the problem with the construction of the liner. I have used several sets of the Daytona cylinders like were shown in the video with zero problems. They really are a great value . They should be making 4.125 twincam cylinders as well. I have seen guys take the twincam "bigger bore" cylinders out to 4.125 but I have yet to try that. As I am sure you know some of those early ones were not very good quality either. It's interesting that we are 4 years into this M8 and still learning how to consistently get reliable power out of them with no issues (oiling etc.) I'm just starting to really like this platform. Edit; One more thing to add, where I feel a problem is occurring causing cracking. The spigot on the M8 is tapered for cylinder to cylinder clearance. After they are bored they can end up with an almost sharp edge and the bottom of the spigot. I always cut this down a bit to end up with a flat surface to avoid a stress riser and don't get carried away with a ring lead in taper.
Thanks Bob. I've spoken to many other builders as well...some Im sure you know. Some are seeing the same thing but not on every one. Others, like you, have said "no issue" as of yet. However...HD had a problem with stock 107 cyls breaking in the same fashion in 17 and early 18 which is why they changed something with the cylinder...and why i waited a little while to start boring them to 4.125...leading me to believe it has less to do with bore size, and more to do with cylinder construction, case geometry, rod length, piston dwell time at BDC, etc. As I said...I'm still working on the theory to try and determine the exact cause. I have not bored those M8 cyls to 4.125 myself...but I do have a few bikes here that were built by others, with broken skirts. I will be cutting many more broken M8 cylinders open over the next few days. Side note....I know several who will run TC 4" bore to 4.060, and 4.060 to 4.125 and they havent had any issues....but it's simply not a risk im willing to take. It's purely a choice...not saying those that do are wrong. Fact remains, many TC engines have run far thinner skirts when compared to an M8 3.937 bored to 4.125....and the TC cyls didn't seem to have a widespread issue. So something has to be causing it. I completely agree with the taper. Instead of a razor sharp edge, cut a small scallop into the spigot for clearance and round the edge. Any machinist with any experience knows, sharp corners and edges lead to failure. Even a slight radius is helpful. Thanks for your insight and comment...and for contributing. I enjoyed reading it.
That was awesome Kev, thank you.
Very welcome. Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it.
I'll stop at evo. No twin cam or newer for me
Early Evo's from 85 to mid 92 had their share of factory installed issues, I've fixed enough of them in my career.
Everything has early production issues that wind up getting straightened out after a few years, Flat's, Knuck's, Pan's, and Shovel's are no exception to that, I could sit here all day typing out the early production problems with all of those.
Man you making a po boy like me..love his old faithful evo
Very well explained. I'll keep my stock T/C going as long as possible ...
Thats a very good plan my friend. 😉
I can't wait till Kevin,,(Mr Baxter President of Harley Engineering) takes Harley Productions over,,,,
I had an HD engineer tell me once at the AMD show in sturgis...."We build the bikes and create the market, you guys make the bikes better. Where do you think our new stuff comes from". LOL. No joke.
There was ALWAYS and engineer from HD, in my seminars and classes at Cincinnati, Indy, etc....listening.
The HD engineers are listening it is the accountants that are the problem of most companies. You can get quality or you can get cheap. Never can you get both.
So they build a shit product and come to your class to learn how to improve it. Does their R&D department exist?
Who wants a ride on a Titanic bike?
This is a fantastic video. Subscribed and liked.
Awesome, thank you!
Hey Kevin, Heard about Any cylinder breakage on the OE 131 cylinders?
Or is the breakage just cylinders bored out afterwards?
It occured on completely stock cyls in 2017 to early 18, and yes...i've heard of 131s doing it as well...have not seen one in my shop yet though.
I have a S&S 124" T series crate motor on my 2006 Road Glide. I bought the motor new from S&S in 2015. Seems to be holding up just fine. I could have bought a new bike with an M8 but I have heard too many horror stories, such as these.
Kevin, do you have these cylinders for a 110 twin cam how would they fit in my case how much are they ? thanks, jerry
Thanks for the great info. I subscribe, and look forward to your vids. I have a stock 2010 Twin cam with only a stage one. Is there any common probs to watch out for in this year? I've changed the Compinsator/tensioner.
10 wasnt a bad year. ECM terminals and terminals at the throttle body, a handful of cranks with excessive runout, etc...but not a common pattern. now the main drive gear bearing in the trans due to the auto tensioners being too tight in the primary....that has always been an issue since 07.
@@KevinBaxter oops ha ha... i replied in the wrong place.
As usual, well done 👍🏽.
Thank you! Cheers!
Excellent information very knowledgeable and thank you for your follow great help
Very welcome
The lip is creating a harmonic frequency thats different from the rest of the bore. As the piston comes down it passes that lip and due to no surrounding support from the rest of the bore as well as the slight force put on it from the point just before tip over you going get flex. I think kevin is a very good harley tech. I have been a master tech with over 40 years under my belt. I certainly agree with his assertion that it is due to the lip as well as the possibility of improper honing techniques. I made a support jig just for lower skirts to keep the outward expansion from occurring. All you kids out there need to pay attention. This guy is passing on very valuable knowledge.
This shop is top shelf
KEVIN, I HAVE A 2017 STREET GLIDE WITH 10K EASY MILES ON HER. THIS WEEKEND WHILE RIDING I HAVE A MAJOR OIL LEAK COMING FROM THE REAR CYLINDER. SEEMS TO BE COMING FROM THE TOP, I ASSUME BETWEEN ROCKER BOX AND JUG, JUST ABOVE THE OIL HOSE COMING OUT THE REAR OF THE CYLINDER. THE BIKE RUNS FINE, OTHERWISE. IS THAT A COMMON ISSUE? THANKS!
Very informative... thanks so much. 👍🇬🇧
Glad it was helpful!
Love your channel man, between yours and Tatro Machine ive learned more in 2 years than I have all my short life at 45 now!....what do think about tribodyn oil Kevin?...
Thank you Michael. Appreciate it. That's an oil brand I've never heard of...and another one for me to look into. Thanks!
@@KevinBaxter thanks for the fast reply!....tribodyn is made in North carolina...ive learned about it from Keenan Tatro of Tatro Machine...its a super oil as far as I'm concerned....i have it for all 3 engine primary and trans if my road king ever gets finished from a piston and head upgrade!....id love to hear what your opinions are of this oil Kevin...thanks again man
Great information, a little too good to obtain for no cost
Where can a person purchase a cylinder for either the twin cam or the M8 with the thicker sleeves? I am looking to do a bike rebuild but have not picked out a bike yet so I don't know if it will be the twin cam or the M8 I will be working with.
several companies. we have ours made, S&S offers them and we use those on some builds, a few other builders out there have theirs too. we even resleeve stock ones too. many options.
As an old drag racer once told me, "Stock is Trick!"
Does that step down in the spiget have somethin to do with sleave retention that it has to have that shoulder
Yes however, if the sleeve extends beyond the casting where it meets the case and the head hold it in place. There has never been another harley cylinder produced, ever, even in the aftermarket, that had that little step down.
So far my 2019 FXDR-114 is still stock with no issues 👍🇺🇸, then again it only has 👉1225 miles 👈, I tend to wax it more than I ride it, 😎and that’s ok too 👍🇺🇸
What do you wax it with?
Who makes the cylinders you are using? Or do you have them made for your shop
currently having them made
I couldn't help thinking of the de Havilland Comet, first commercial jetliner. It had windows that had sharp corners that stress cracked. That cylinder at 2.50 of the video looks like the cylinders were cut with a sharp corner at the step where the cracks were happening. The fix was of course, ovals at the corners to spread the stress over a larger area. Same idea to stop a small stress crack, drill a round hole at the end of the crack. That is not meant to be the solution here. LOL!
nail on the head sir....thank you.
Kevin Baxter can you do a video only about M8 engine, the years of the engine vs the problems and the solution for the problem to rise the reliability of that engine? And what harley changed through the years.
That will be integrated into the current series. great comment. thanks.
@@KevinBaxter nice I will be waiting for that video, personal I belive I never saw a video with that topic about the years vs problems and solutions about only M8. Best regards.
Is there a difference in the 95 big bore kit going to 98 vs the original 88 going to 98? 95 kit that harley sold separately is the one I'm referring to.
When you buy a big bore cylinder kit from HD...its the exact same as a stock cylinder, just bored bigger. HD never sold a 98 kit...aftermarket only. We have bored 88 and 95 cyls to 98 cyls since 2000 that size with no issue as memory serves. Only difference...bore them bigger. However, Rev Perf made a solid alum cylinder in that size many years ago and it was nik/sil coated...that was a disaster. Personally, I wouldnt go that route. 88=3.75 bore. 95=3.875 bore. 98=3.937 bore and that is as far as youd want to go safely.
Great video.
How far can you safely bore a 96 jug can it be bored to a 107 without fear of spigot cracking or is it better to just buy new jugs. Thxs Bryan
I, as well as many other reputable machine shops, have been boring stock TC cyls to 3.937 since the early 2000s successfully. I wouldnt hesitate to do it now on my own bike or a customers bike. If i had seen a pattern or failures as a result, I simply wouldnt do it. Is there a slight risk that it could crack? Sure.....but the same risk comes with virtually any cylinder really.
Great information. Thanks
Glad it was helpful! Thank you Tim!!!!!
This is why my bike is at your shop getting a Skunk Works build ! Power and reliability. I tried the top end kit only. That didn’t work. Great info Kevin !
Right on! Thank you Fred!!!!
Kevin Baxter my name is not Fred. But your welcome.
LOL....funny....I was too quick on the enter button. I was typing "Thank you Freedom". I know who you are sir! ;)
Kevin Baxter I know I was just razzing you lol.
Typically speaking, would you relate these issues to stage 3 upgrades vs stage 2? In other words have you seen a cam swap cause a cylinder to crack, right?
cant say that....because ive seen many completely stock M8 engines have broken cylinders. That was a big issue on the 2017 and early 18 models.
I'll stick to stock, I'm not out to win any races, I just want to have a reliable ride.
I bought the Screaming Eagle 114 stage 4 kit DIRECTLY from harley in 2018 for a model year 2017 M8. One of the first ones.. Yes...With all the oil issues and everything else....Moral to the story. I went through "3" sets of SE heads that needed sent back just due to gauge marks in the surfacing of these parts. Weather they were made in China and finished in the US or India. There are several steps these products go through before they are finished. So even if said heads may have been cast in China. That doesn't mean they were assembled or finished there. Either way. 30,000 Miles later and still running the same mild build with stock-ish HD parts. That were clearly NOT USA finished...
That's awesome you've had great luck with it. Glad to hear.
I am interested in the pro 120 kit for my 2017 Street Glide special. The question I have, if I brought my bike to your shop, and wanted your personal to do the work, is that possible?
Sure we can do that. Call the shop at 6782269651 to schedule it in.
When purchasing a big bore kit with whole new jugs for my m8 from leading edge performance, are the cylinders bored on such a kit or just made from scratch??
All have to be bored. Cyl sleeves are either cast into the cylinder or pressed in. Either way, they have to be bored to specific size and honed to precision fit. How far they are bored and the thickness of the spigot is the concern. I am not aware of how they are doing your cylinders. If they are boring stock ones, having theirs made, or buying from somewhere and doing the finish work themselves...really doesnt matter as long as its done well.
Ok great! Thanks for the insight kev!
Good show Keving. I will send my wish list soon & will bring U the bike so U do the small afordable first the.
Can't wait!
Agree with your assessment, but not because of the notch. From what I saw in the Video, the M8 SLEEVE is not under cut with a radius like the Twin is. A perfect 90 Deg cut in machining is a stress point. This is a perfect reason for cracking. IMO
I agree with you 100% there as well. Its about as square of a corner as you can get. STOOOOPID! Lol
Kevin!!! Bro! I was cruising my 03 RK doing 55, accelerated to 60 when suddenly I heard, out of the blue, the weirdest “bang, bang, bang” and quickly let off throttle bringing my RPMs down. In this vid (4:18), you mentioned the bang issue. With my TC88 at just over 60k, I’m now thinking the worst! Damn it!!! Luckily noise went away so as to get home... 😞 But now am leery riding my baby. I got to get her fixed. Damn it!!! I guess it’s time for a new engine. I was looking to replace cam plate with S&S kit and cams w/ hydro-tensioner or gear drive (preferably - providing TIR is w/i .003)... now this...UUUugh! Recommendations? I gots to get’r done, love my squidly freedom... 🇺🇸
I wouldnt run it anymore until you take it down and check a few things. Run out, cyl pressure, leak down, etc.
So the 128 big bore kit cylinders from fuel Moto are junk? Or are you saying If I took my stock cylinders off and had them bored out I will run into this problem?
I'm not saying either one...not sure how you drew that conclusion. What I'm saying...and did say at the end of the video if you made it all the way thru, was that if building a performance engine, be prepared to invest in quality parts done well...and just because a cylinder can be bored to an extreme bore size doesn't mean it should be. People are on a quest to get the biggest engine they can for the least dollars. And at times, that can result in failures. Cylinders can be bored and are bored by many very succesfully without failure...but bore it too far, just for the sake of having more cubes, and reliability will suffer.
Excellent
Thank you! Cheers!
Wow. Very interesting vlog. Think you upgrade your bike at your peril.😬. We all know that metal expands and contracts with heat.Thats a fact.That notch you highlight on the M8 might 'pin' the sleeve and cause different expansion rates, hence the cracking.
The best Harley engine ever was the Revolution no doubts, it passed successfully in the first try the Düsseldorf Test witch is a rigorous endurance test that requires an engine to run for 500 hours without failure in high RPMs non stop.
A great engine format for sure. Dont recall seeing a single common issue with those. Scott Fitzgerald at Fitzgerald Motorsports in Ohio is a good friend...he knows those engines inside and out.
I feel like people lack common sense these days, all this is pretty easy to understand. Harley should know better, that squared off edge is basicly like if you scored a tile to crack it and then just the common sense of a cylinder being bored bigger needs more strength, not less.
The early Evo case's had a similar problem, the machine work on the rear motor mount pad has a 90° corner where the machine work also cuts the rear face of the case's, if you take a set of those case's apart you'll see there's a thin area from that corner to a hole for a through bolt in the cases, they liked to crack from that corner to the bolt hole across the machined surface where the case halves bolt together (if I remember correctly it was the left side case's that were prone to doing it).
Starting with the 88 model year they put a little 45° camphor in the corner of the motor mount machining that solved that problem.
Evo's aren't as bullet proof as people think, there's a laundry list of issues they had about the first 7 years with them, the mid 92's and up are the rock solid Evo's despite the (easily solved) head breathing quirks.
Thankyou
You’re welcome 😊
I have a 2014 Street glide and I want to do a 110 upgrade, however I keep hearing that the skirts are way too thin and the engines don't last😳 what is your opinion on that 🤔
I'm reluctant to recommend a 110. There are so many other options that are less intrusive and provide more power without a sacrifice in reliability. That's why we dont offer them despite our ability to build anything.
I put the screaming eagle 110 tire shedder kit on my 2011 dyna street bob, I very much recommend it. 106hp/122 tq runs great but I hardly rev it past 5k rpms.
Great video and very interesting.
You said that you saw this issue on 2017 - early 2018 models... does that mean that HD fixed this issue on 2019 - 2020 models ?
I'm interested by the 2020 FXLRS but when I see that...
Cheers from France !
I wasnt the only one that saw that issue early on. It was kept relatively quiet but was widespread. I'm currently looking into the later model cylinders to see if there was a change. The problem with the stock cylinders has not been anywhere near as widespread on the later models, leading me to believe yes, something did change. I'm working on that answer. I'm not the type to guess at a solution or cause however...speculation is good because it leads us to investigation. But until I can be certain of the cause, or the solution, i will not state it as fact. More details to come for sure as myself, and others i trust in this industry, continue to investigate. It's all in the spirit of providing the best most reliable product we can for our customers.
@@KevinBaxter thank you very much for this feedback !
@@KevinBaxter Hi kevin ..So was the 2020 barrels fixed or upgraded ??
I’ve got 23,000 miles on my 2018 break out and the only thing I’ve done to it is a woods performance 22X cam kit other than that nothing else in the motor has been touched do you think I would’ve seen a problem by now well over 20,000 miles on this aftermarket cam kit lifters pushrods and I run the piss out of the bike And it still runs just as good now as it did 20,000 miles back when I first had the cam kit put in. It’s really starting to sound more and more like the bang for the buck with these M8’s is to just do a hotter cam a good tune a good two and one pipe and be done with it
If you made it that long, more than likely you are ok. Stock 2017s had many cylinder failures but most occurred the first 1500 miles or so. Performance done right can be very reliable.
Is there a problem with the m8 107 if you can here a slight ticking sound when it’s running?
all engines make noise. if you could ride the engine in your car, youd be amazed at the noise they make. i cant honestly answer your question as i havent heard it. if its always done it since new, most likely its not an issue. if it came on suddenly, or suddenly got worse, it could be a sign of a problem.
Yes. The problem with it is it's an M8.
@@tigerseye73 poor guy don't hate
Kevin ...love your videos...didn"t harley start to make there cyclinders out of tool steal for the twin cam ?
She about burnt my biscuits watching your video...lol that is the reason why i did research and came to you to build my bike. My cousin had a twin cam that he had built come apart going down the interstate, now i know why. At the time we didnt understand why and what he could have done different. Great video.
Thank you D&D. DONT BURN THE BISCUITS!!!!!! DONT BURN THE BISCUITS!!!! LOL
Almost to late...they were good but crispy...
Just put more butter on em. LOL Or sorghum. I wonder how many people that read these comments will know what the heck sorghum is? LOL
I buttered them up.
Nice save honey...lol
Love you guys
thank you frank.
So keep it stock or go with s&s. or leading edge if you wanna go true balls to the wall with a 151
Kevin, I have a reasonable suspicion about this since it is occurring on "some" of these and not others. If you look at the area of the crack where the spigot meets the casting. If there is a slight undercut there, you may need a magnifying glass tot see it. This will cause the cylinders to crack in the same means. This is caused by the tool used for these cuts when it is tried being worn out and having a "hook" at the tip. This just means mfg. needs to adjust his MTBF one or ten before it occurs.
Thank you for sharing that Kev. I'll leave my stock 110 twin cam cylinders alone I think. 👌👍
nothing at all wrong with boring and honing stock cylinders...especially twin cam and back. just has to be done right.
Relieving any sharp or raw edges on the shirt will keep cracks from walking but the biggest cylinder killer I’ve seen is the guys beating on a cold engine and not letting it warm up slowly.
Absolutely sir.
@hugieglhr03 - i dont get what you saying. . . . . .more words plz.
Your theory makes sense to me FWIW , but that and two bux will get you a dollar cuppa mud .. Is the sleeve a sleeve that can be pressed out and replaced ??
its cast in place unfortunately. So....out they go, replace and custom fit good ones.
hi kevin
is it worth installing a 95 big bore kit in an 88 twin cam and are they pretty much drop in kits or is there extra stuff to do and will the standard 88 up to the task, this 88 ia 2003?
A 95 is a great, safe upgrade for an 88. I have zero reservations about those builds provided they are done properly. Inspect things like cam plate, oil pump, rods, etc. That was a good year and good engines. Great format for performance work.
check out our 95 inch builds here protwin.com/completeperformancepackages.aspx
@@KevinBaxter do gain enough balls to justify doing it.
I think so. Can see as much as a 30 percent gain. 100hp/tq is significantly more than they are stock.
Great video Kevin. I didn’t hear you comment on the 110 drop in cylinders for the 103. What are your thoughts on those thin wall cylinders? Do you have a video on those that I missed? Thanks.
Thank you sir. Remember gramma saying "if you dont have something nice to say, dont say anything at all"? LOL....it applies. LOL
Are the cylinders cracking on stock M8 engines?
It was common on 2017 and some 2018 models yes.....but not as many now. I'm still working to determine what the cause was to make sure the problem doesnt get revisited.
Kev, if you were my teacher back at school, I could probably afford a hot M8.
haha. thanks!
Would love to have an idea of what one of ur skunkworks motors go for
My Skunkworks Signature series engines vary widely. Its like going to Brooks Brothers to get a custom tailored suit. You can get a nice one from Men's Warehouse, but....nothing beats a hand made custom suit just for you. The biggest thing....i dont waste other peoples money. if you need it, i'll tell you. if you dont, ill tell you that too. In other words...good, better, best....
Some of my engines...say 300 plus HP procharger builds...can take 30 plus hours to fully blueprint and perfect. But....300HP out of 2 cyls aint easy. LOL
Great information, I've just watched 5 or 6 of your videos and although some are a little long very informative. You may want to consider some time laps portions.
What about EVO cylinders? did they ever have this problem? i just did weisco 10:1 pistons and had the cylinders bored 10 over.
NEVER.....Neither did shovel, pan, knuckle, sporty, or twin cam really unless someone did something stupid and bored them too far. However, the 2017 and early 2018 M8s were doing it STOCK.
if youre only .010 over, and the skirt clearance to piston is correct...you are golden sir.
Kevin Baxter Thank you for the good info!
youre welcome.
Fantastic information to be made available Kevin. Too bad you aren’t the head of engineering for Harley. Just so I understand because I’m a little slow. Are the problems coming from the “stock cylinders” only or are they a result of being bored after the stock has been installed in the bike and then having a shop change the bore size for a new engine? Sorry for the dumb question. Thanks in advance.
Not a dumb question at all sir...you are welcome here. The problem was occurring on stock unmodified cyls. That seems to not be happening as frequently which means something changed with the stock ones...figuring out what at this time.
Kevin Baxter thank you so much for the quick response Kevin.
Kevin - whats your opinion on the 2014 Touring CVO 110 motor reliability and longevity. I’ve got 20K miles on mine.
The 110 had a few issues but werent extremely common other than the flywheel issues in the earlier years. 2014 wasnt a terrible year really. Most common issue was valve seats dropping, and cylinders out of round causing oil consumption, piston slap, etc. Another issue was cylinder base leaks but when they redesigned the oring to a quad seal, it solved that problem for the most part. The compensator was better by that year...but....the auto primary chain tensioners were always an issue. Listen for a whirring sound....could be a main drive gear bearing in the trans going out. Even with that being a large bore, thin skirt cylinder....they did not have a problem with them breaking. I dont recall one. That's why that one feature on those M8 cylinders stood out. Its the only one that ever had that, and the only one that has had a problem with it stock.
Change your oil to tribodyn and you'll be protected....look it up man, good stuff...the 110 tc is an awesome motor
dont panic. it really wasnt a bad engine as they were around longer. the first few years, not so great. but, 7 years later, in 2014...they were far better than the very first generation. the issues werent widespread but, the ones that had problems, seem to have the same problems.
Thanks Kevin, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question! Recon I’ll keep it over trading for an M8, for now anyway. Motor runs great, no over heating issues since tuned and de-catted.
I'd say, they have reached the limit on how wide the bore can be made in the sleeve, due to the sleeve itself, not the jugs
You can't cut the sleeve so thin, and expect it to contain all that goes on in a cylinder in the normal course of its operation.
Less metal means weaker walls...
Especially with the 131. Our 124 embarrasses that engine and is reliable. Funny to watch. We were building 120 TC almost 8 years before the HD 120 came out, making more power, and i have hundreds of them still on the road tapping 100,000 miles or more....and we embarrassed that one too. LOL I agree...at some point...more is too much. When it gets to the point you start running tool steel for cylinder liners JUST to squeeze in a few more cubic inches, enough is enough.
Are the 2020 cylinders untouched having these issues?
I haven't seen as many consistent issues with the newer ones as I did with the earlier. Still...im hesitant to take that chance.
@@KevinBaxter I got 2,200 miles on my M8, hopefully I won't have to give you an update saying otherwise 😜
I have been a precision machinist working with many prototype machines and their individual steel components for 30 years. I have machined countless parts made from many different types of materials and have machined many bores of all types of configurations over thirty years. I also worked very closely with our mechanical engineering department on various prototype projects. All I can say is this is very amateur engineering on Harley-Davidson’s part, just by looking at these long protruding cylinder sleeve skirts especially the one with the skirts cut out with no structural support are a disaster waiting to happen! You also have to consider the difference in heat expansion between the cylinder sleeve that is actually pressed in the cylinder and the portion of the cylinder sleeve that is thin and not supported by the aluminum cylinder walls. Their tends to be a egg shape in most bores after final machining as well. At the least a matching and mating radius should be machined in both the case base and the protruding cylinder sleeve as it exits the actual aluminum cylinder. Their should never be sharp angles at the weakest stress points. Harley-Davidson’s mechanical engineers should known better. Very shocking something so basic in simple physics is overlooked and produced by a major motor company. Sad really... it’s better to over engineer any day!
As you know Paul...we will agree on all your points. The long spigot on Twin Cam has never been an issue provided its bored correctly. They hold up very well. That unique feature in the M8 cylinder was my focus on the video really....and my theory as to why they are breaking even on stock cylinders....and of course, lack of radius at the intersecting points. Great comment sir...thank you so much!
I didn't know Harley had any actual motor engineers. The V-Rod engine was farmed out to Porsche. The EVO was designed by Textron AMF.
I suspect that they did this to prevent people from boring out the cylinders themselves so that you would buy their factory stage 4 kits.
This really isn't all that new to those that know HD motors. In 1936 the infamous Knucklehead came out, it had a 3 5/16" bore as it was 61 cubic inches. In 1941 the 74" 3 7/16" bore longer stroke motor came out. All in all the bigger 74's worked well until the cylinders were bored .050" or greater during overhauls when they easily exploded, especially at the drag strip.
I agree...not new at all. Going too far was a disaster waiting to happen on any cylinder. What's different though...is that STOCK M8 cylinders in stock bore size, were having the problem. No other HD ever has. Still working to determine the exact cause so its not a risk when boring to an acceptable size.
Are the cylinders you use the S&S cylinders?
No.
Kevin Baxter My 2018 M8 107 was built in April 2018. Would you say that is early or late?
You are right on the line sir. If you start it cold, or while under power/roll on, and you begin to hear a loud rattling noise, shut it down, and tow it home. If the noise starts suddenly, a noise you havent heard before....DO NOT ACCEPT someone telling you "Thats Normal...ride it". Have it looked at. At least now you know that was a problem.
Kevin Baxter I have 12,500 miles on it now. So far so good. I always listen to the motor. The Street Glide is a stock motor. No mods quiet exhaust and I don’t abuse it. Thanks.
Nothing like better quality parts. I don't mind paying more for them either, as they are made to last.
Couldnt agree more sir. Thank you.
Maybe if they went to a solid one piece crankshaft and offset the cylinders the amount required for the connecting rods. You would gain 2 major items, first the crankshaft would be MUCH stronger and no longer would shift which is a common problem with assembled crankshaft. The second gain would be the offset the cylinders you would get much better cooling for the rear cylinder. Don't believe me use either a thermal camera or a digital thermal gauge and you will see a much higher rear temp. Not mentioned is that the rear cylinder is way overrepresented for this cylinder cracking. So for the most part these engines are getting HOT, notice as the engine displacement increases the problem grows in kind.
So returning rider. Please suggest a year range and model of touring model to buy based on your findings.
I repair fewer 2006 models than any other year. HD seems to run on 4 year increments. I usually suggest 2002, 2006, but if you want newer, 2010, and maybe up to 2014.
Kevin Baxter Thank you for your reply.
Kevin Baxter P.S. what about the cam chain tensioner on the 2002 and 2006? What do you recommend to do about this?
All twin cams up to 06 had a spring loaded cam tensioner setup. Basically, you have 4 options depending on your budget and crank runout. 1, replace the tensioners. 2, upgrade cam plate/oil pump to hydro tensioners with stock cams 3. upgrade to gear drive cams and keep stock cam plate and pump or 4, upgrade to gear drive cams with plate, pump. When you get ready to do this, shoot me an email kevin@protwin.com I can get you some numbers, discuss details, and get you what fits the budget. THanks.
Kevin Baxter Thank you.
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Wow, I'm sure glad to have an Evo