I have both hub and mid drive bikes. For most people who just want to cruise around the hood and take light trails and beach paths, get a hub motor. Cheaper, don't have to think about what gear you're in. Zero stress on the drivetrain. Mid drives shine on more technical mountain biking. And I don't understand why it's often said that with a cadence sensor, "the faster you pedal the more motor power you get." This isn't true. With a cadence, it doesn't matter how slow or how fast you pedal, the motor will keep a pre-programed steady wattage output in accordance to whatever PAS power you are in. If I'm in PAS 1 and it's programmed to put out 230w, it will stay at constant 230w output whether I'm pedaling as hard as I can, as fast as I can or barely peddling at all. But my favorite ride is my Ecell's 5 Star. Gets me up hills way faster than my mid drive with way stress on my chain, cassette.
And to take the point on drivetrain stress a bit further, mid drive motors go through chains and cassettes much more quickly at about 2 times as fast. My front wheel hub kits gets me about 10000 miles. If you have a direct drive kit with regen, then you do get some return on power but the real benefit to me is that brake life can be more than tripled. All those parts and possible labor can pay for a new ebike surprisingly quickly if you are putting on extensive mileage per year.
Thank you for sharing good information about the types of motors and power assist styles out there. I would also love for more brands to let riders decide what mode they want to use and when. A torque sensor’s output is variable voltage (proportional to rider effort) and can be interpreted as an on/off switch by accepting voltage above a low threshold as “on”. A cadence sensor simply sends pulses (pedaling speed) and can’t be used to determine how hard the rider is pedaling. To my knowledge, only Velotric, Euphree and Juiced offered some of their models with this capability. What I’d add to your discussion of cadence sensor PAS is there are two styles of power delivery with those. The one you mentioned is more commonly used, where PAS levels are speed targets, and the bike uses an arbitrary power delivery curve to reach it, then cutting off or greatly reducing the power sent to the motor. With torquey motors, it can easily make a rider lose control, even falling off. This style also makes riding in groups and crowded areas dangerous and matching speed with other riders difficult. The less common style has the levels correspond to an amount of power sent to the motor. While it doesn’t offer the rider as fine control as a torque sensor, it is easier to control than the speed target style. Brands that use this style on their cadence sensor bikes are MATE, Ride1Up, Lectric (with their PWR system), and apparently RadPower Bikes. This is the mode I wish brands would use for their switchable torque/cadence sensor mode models.
I appreciate ya for such a great vid . People don't realize how much time and effort someone should take to choose the correct bike for each situation. 🚴♀️🤙
I really appreciate your info. I'm considering a Quietkat Apex HD for hunting, but it's a two-speed auto transmission hub drive. The mid-drive variant, is more expensive and out of my price range. Do you think, because the HD is a hub drive it won't be suitable to use in the mountains? I'd love to get some advice on this. Thanks!
I prefer hub motor ! No wear to chain and sproket! Had the Hemingway cobra pro mid drive motor and had to change chain and spocket 2 time for 1000mile only !
Very awesome and informative video dude! I've got all hub motors, most are pretty quiet, and i have 1 direct drive motor on my first gen bigniu bgx, it's completely silent and tops out about 43 mph ...I bought the second gen bgx as well they used a geared hub motor on the new version, holy crap that motor screams! I thought it was going to explode when I first got it! But I love it now it's way more torque than my 1st Gen... not quite as fast, but both are amazing bikes! You should review one, love ur channel man, u do a great job! Keep it up.
Thx J! Glad you’re enjoying the videos! I’ll reach out to Bigniu this year and see if we can work together. Thanks again for taking the time to chime in! 🤜🏼🤛🏼
His description of how cadence sensor works on bikes is wrong. The cadence sensor only recognizes if the pedals are turning it doesn't matter how fast they're turning or how much pressure you put on the pedal. However, some controllers will allow the cadence sensor to switch the motor on until a certain speed is reached and then disengage. Others since the cadence and allow a certain percentage of the power of the motor to be used up to a certain speed.
Yes some cheap bikes go right up to the set power/speed for the given PAS mode the bike is in as soon as the pedals rotate. But most “good” bikes I’ve ridden this year actually do measure rotations per minute “RPM” and give you the right level of power for how fast you spin the cranks. Every bike is different.✌🏻
If you go mid drive you should know your way around fixing bicycles. Adjusting derailleurs and being able to put on your own chain. Then again if you get a premade hub motor you're going to get a crash course when you get a flat on how to fix.
I'm trying to figure out which is best for me. Covid was hard on me, so I'm thinking that I need something with torque. It will be best because of the steep hills. What would be your recommendation
For the same power rating and price range, get the motor with the highest torque, partnered with a controller capable of more amps. If you need more help, try to get the same setup but with smaller diameter wheel as that gives the motor better mechanical advantage at the loss of top speed at which you can comfortably pedal.
Let's say two same bikes have direct drive hub motor and geared hub motor. With same battery pack. Which one will have more range? What percentage will the range differ?
I’m assuming the geared hub because of the extra efficiency with the gears and the overall lower speed. Riding a direct drive at 45-50mph drains the battery quicker. (Educated guess)
Good video explaining all the options. Id like to know if there is a really good conversation kit to put on my 80's Specialized stumpjumper front or rear or both.
500 watt bafang hub motor, controller and display is around $200 250. Batteries going to run you the same,the only issue with it being from the 80s it might have dropouts that are too narrow in the back. They need to be 135 mm apart to fit.
@@velvetvideo get a powerful hub motor. Mine is 1,500w that can peak to about 2,400w. I can take any hill I see with ease. There is no stress on drivetrain, and you dont have to always think about what gear you're in like you do with a mid drive. Look at Ecell's or Wired ebikes. I have a 750w Befang mid drive bike and my Ecell's 5 Star gets me up hills much faster with it's hub motor.
California has new laws for e-bikes in 2025 that may wipe out the faster bikes as not being e-bikes. Other states may follow. ua-cam.com/video/sMoW5hnmKV0/v-deo.htmlsi=xtG5eIonNrN1fq-L
I have both hub and mid drive bikes. For most people who just want to cruise around the hood and take light trails and beach paths, get a hub motor. Cheaper, don't have to think about what gear you're in. Zero stress on the drivetrain. Mid drives shine on more technical mountain biking. And I don't understand why it's often said that with a cadence sensor, "the faster you pedal the more motor power you get." This isn't true. With a cadence, it doesn't matter how slow or how fast you pedal, the motor will keep a pre-programed steady wattage output in accordance to whatever PAS power you are in. If I'm in PAS 1 and it's programmed to put out 230w, it will stay at constant 230w output whether I'm pedaling as hard as I can, as fast as I can or barely peddling at all. But my favorite ride is my Ecell's 5 Star. Gets me up hills way faster than my mid drive with way stress on my chain, cassette.
And to take the point on drivetrain stress a bit further, mid drive motors go through chains and cassettes much more quickly at about 2 times as fast. My front wheel hub kits gets me about 10000 miles. If you have a direct drive kit with regen, then you do get some return on power but the real benefit to me is that brake life can be more than tripled. All those parts and possible labor can pay for a new ebike surprisingly quickly if you are putting on extensive mileage per year.
Totally agree! Four mid drive bafang bbsHD AND now one hub motor radrunner for three years!
Good point!
Thank you for sharing good information about the types of motors and power assist styles out there.
I would also love for more brands to let riders decide what mode they want to use and when. A torque sensor’s output is variable voltage (proportional to rider effort) and can be interpreted as an on/off switch by accepting voltage above a low threshold as “on”. A cadence sensor simply sends pulses (pedaling speed) and can’t be used to determine how hard the rider is pedaling. To my knowledge, only Velotric, Euphree and Juiced offered some of their models with this capability.
What I’d add to your discussion of cadence sensor PAS is there are two styles of power delivery with those.
The one you mentioned is more commonly used, where PAS levels are speed targets, and the bike uses an arbitrary power delivery curve to reach it, then cutting off or greatly reducing the power sent to the motor. With torquey motors, it can easily make a rider lose control, even falling off. This style also makes riding in groups and crowded areas dangerous and matching speed with other riders difficult.
The less common style has the levels correspond to an amount of power sent to the motor. While it doesn’t offer the rider as fine control as a torque sensor, it is easier to control than the speed target style.
Brands that use this style on their cadence sensor bikes are MATE, Ride1Up, Lectric (with their PWR system), and apparently RadPower Bikes. This is the mode I wish brands would use for their switchable torque/cadence sensor mode models.
🫶🏻
I appreciate ya for such a great vid . People don't realize how much time and effort someone should take to choose the correct bike for each situation. 🚴♀️🤙
Thanks, glad you liked it!🤜🏼🤛🏼
I want both a rear geared hub motor and a middrive on the same bike and a boost button to switch on the 2nd motor on hills.
Ooh… you’re on to something!🤣
@@thebikecave lol cheer up mate haha
Really good video. I like the hub drive motor a little better than the direct drive motor.😊😊😊 Please keep it up.
Thx! Will do!🤜🏼🤛🏼
Direct drive is faster
I really appreciate your info. I'm considering a Quietkat Apex HD for hunting, but it's a two-speed auto transmission hub drive. The mid-drive variant, is more expensive and out of my price range. Do you think, because the HD is a hub drive it won't be suitable to use in the mountains? I'd love to get some advice on this. Thanks!
I think as a hunting bike, a variable speed hub motor would be great! You’ll just be riding logging roads and light trails mostly.
I prefer hub motor ! No wear to chain and sproket! Had the Hemingway cobra pro mid drive motor and had to change chain and spocket 2 time for 1000mile only !
Yeah hubs are definitely easier to maintain…
Thanks for sharing.
🤜🏼🤛🏼
Very awesome and informative video dude! I've got all hub motors, most are pretty quiet, and i have 1 direct drive motor on my first gen bigniu bgx, it's completely silent and tops out about 43 mph ...I bought the second gen bgx as well they used a geared hub motor on the new version, holy crap that motor screams! I thought it was going to explode when I first got it! But I love it now it's way more torque than my 1st Gen... not quite as fast, but both are amazing bikes! You should review one, love ur channel man, u do a great job! Keep it up.
Thx J! Glad you’re enjoying the videos! I’ll reach out to Bigniu this year and see if we can work together. Thanks again for taking the time to chime in! 🤜🏼🤛🏼
I have a 1000w geared hub motor in each wheel, absolutely perfect.
Nice that’s a lot of juice!🤘🏻
how fast?
@@warlockboyburns 34mph or around there. The bike is a philodo h8 I got it over a year ago now.
His description of how cadence sensor works on bikes is wrong. The cadence sensor only recognizes if the pedals are turning it doesn't matter how fast they're turning or how much pressure you put on the pedal. However, some controllers will allow the cadence sensor to switch the motor on until a certain speed is reached and then disengage. Others since the cadence and allow a certain percentage of the power of the motor to be used up to a certain speed.
Yes some cheap bikes go right up to the set power/speed for the given PAS mode the bike is in as soon as the pedals rotate. But most “good” bikes I’ve ridden this year actually do measure rotations per minute “RPM” and give you the right level of power for how fast you spin the cranks. Every bike is different.✌🏻
If you go mid drive you should know your way around fixing bicycles. Adjusting derailleurs and being able to put on your own chain. Then again if you get a premade hub motor you're going to get a crash course when you get a flat on how to fix.
Very true… they both have their challenges…
That's why you get tubeless tires, easier to fix puncture
@andyfumo8931 do they have tubeless fat bike tires?
@johnsheetz6639 yes, they're called motorcycle tires
I'm trying to figure out which is best for me. Covid was hard on me, so I'm thinking that I need something with torque. It will be best because of the steep hills. What would be your recommendation
A good 52V geared hub motor is hard to beat for torque. Or dual like in the Meelod DK300max.
For the same power rating and price range, get the motor with the highest torque, partnered with a controller capable of more amps.
If you need more help, try to get the same setup but with smaller diameter wheel as that gives the motor better mechanical advantage at the loss of top speed at which you can comfortably pedal.
Let's say two same bikes have direct drive hub motor and geared hub motor. With same battery pack. Which one will have more range? What percentage will the range differ?
I’m assuming the geared hub because of the extra efficiency with the gears and the overall lower speed. Riding a direct drive at 45-50mph drains the battery quicker. (Educated guess)
Good video explaining all the options. Id like to know if there is a really good conversation kit to put on my 80's Specialized stumpjumper front or rear or both.
That's a great question! I'm not too familiar with conversion kits for older bikes. But maybe I can try getting a kit soon.
500 watt bafang hub motor, controller and display is around $200 250. Batteries going to run you the same,the only issue with it being from the 80s it might have dropouts that are too narrow in the back. They need to be 135 mm apart to fit.
@johnsheetz6639 thank you for the info 👋
Yo you should review the onyx rcr it’s back in stock!
I’ll do my best!💪🏻
Try getting your hands on the new bafang a510d automatic rear hub and throw it on your mid drive bike.
Will do! As the channel grows, I’ll be able to get my hands on cooler stuff!
Which would you recommend for hilly cross-country and heavy loads, like groceries?
I’d go mid drive as my first choice, or geared hub if need be.
@@velvetvideo get a powerful hub motor. Mine is 1,500w that can peak to about 2,400w. I can take any hill I see with ease. There is no stress on drivetrain, and you dont have to always think about what gear you're in like you do with a mid drive. Look at Ecell's or Wired ebikes. I have a 750w Befang mid drive bike and my Ecell's 5 Star gets me up hills much faster with it's hub motor.
I hate that mosquito sound from geared hub and mid drive motors.
Yeah… more moving parts = noise…
Hub hands down
For certain bikes… Absolutely!👌🏻
Hey, I have a cool ebike that I want to send you for a test ride. What do you think?
Send me an email with the info. Thx!
both
California has new laws for e-bikes in 2025 that may wipe out the faster bikes as not being e-bikes. Other states may follow. ua-cam.com/video/sMoW5hnmKV0/v-deo.htmlsi=xtG5eIonNrN1fq-L
I know… still years away from anything official though…
@@studiosingerI knew people riding like dummies would ruin it for everybody. What's worse is they make videos and post it on UA-cam doing it.