Illegal Bullets - Season 3 Episode 3
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! In today's episode, we answer listener questions about illegal bullets, cartridges, coyote hunting, and more.
Whether you're a firearm enthusiast, a hunter, or just someone curious about the world of ammunition, this podcast has something for you! So tune in, learn something new, and remember to hunt honest and shoot straight.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media...
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
Your advice Ron is timeless. Thanks for doing this youtube for us. You give us younger guys years of experience for free if we listen. I know most dont but still, thank you so much.
I find your comment interesting. If for no other reason than people tell me all the time I'm very "wise beyond your years," and I feel all of that is just listening to people who have been around longer and living like I had their experiences myself.
Thank you Justin. It's uplifting to hear my comments are useful. All the best to you!
You're really boring to the older people.
@@ronspomer4366It might be a good idea to inform your viewers that they can take a 10 second Google search, hit the microphone button, " what ammunition is illegal in Texas ( use ur own state Forest )? Actually in Texas armor piercing pistol ammunition is the only thing illegal. Here is where dumba$$es go to jail in Texas, they get pulled over for speeding, vehicle search turns up a 5.7 x 28 ar 15 along with a 5.7 x 28 Ruger pistol, and boxes of the good stuff ( armor piercing )
On the barrel length question, MDT did a good video where the used a 72in barrel in .308 and cut it down inch by inch to test that exact theory.
I looked it up....
ua-cam.com/video/XCqa2umL8ME/v-deo.html
That was a crazy looking rifle, too, with that crazy barrel on it :) But yeah, good video to watch. Glad they did a real-world test like that.
I wish they hand loaded in that video.
I want to see a 200” barrel…
@@shanehebert396 That's really interesting. Where could I find that video?
Hornady stopped using the HITS formula a few years ago, largely because it did not take into account bullet construction and grossly underestimated the effectiveness of its monolithic copper-alloy bullets. HITS was very dependent on bullet weight and sectional density, and the lighter copper bullets didn't have a score reflecting how effective they were known to be.
It's absolutely fantastic to see a firearms oriented channel that concentrates on the ammunition instead of trying to peddle the latest and "greatest" handgun/rifle/shotgun on the market. Wonderful work you are doing here. It would be nice to see a segment on lower velocity loading with cast bullets and maybe a segment on casting bullets. Keep it up!
Lol, free men don't ask for permission.
Yes, Sir....
SPOILER ALERT
RIP ur dog
@@austinchasteeny must be a dem***at
Yes. But poor men can't afford AP anyway 😂
In my godfathers weapons collection he had two big bore Mausers - 1 was 11.5mm anti material a 2 was a 13.5mm anti scout car/ perssonal transport, ive fired both and boy do they kick hard, he also had the original german / ww2 ammo - he took both weapons off German snipers - he was an Army sniper
Thats pretty fucking cool
OMG! You’re talking about a Mauser M/1918 Tankgewehr! Those are Soooo rare. Only a handful still exist. Most have been destroyed because they were deemed obsolete for their original purpose.
Do you possibly mean the 13.2 mm TUF? Those are legit. I believe that cartridge was part of the inspiration for .50 BMG, .55 Boys, 12.7x108 Soviet, 13.2mm Hotchkiss, and possibly others.
Our glorious governor in Illinois signed a bill outlawing 50 cal. On the books already are metal-piercing bullets that are illegal. Great site, Ron.
I fixed your problem a year ago, I left, there is a world of freedom outside the walls of smellAnoise and it's not flat, if you can my comrade flee to freedom and have normal bowl movements once again. 😉👍🏻
Connecticut did the same with 50 cal
What are the whitetail like out there?
I mean you can legally purchase much larger rounds rounds than a 50.cal lol. Also technically speaking according to the actual written law, only armor piercing ammo for handguns is illegal. You can indeed by armor piercing rifle rounds. They just don't like to point that out.
@@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812You make a good and often overlooked point!
Though in defining what constitutes a prohibited projectile the parameters noted often don't reflect that their usage applies only to handguns.
I had a written interpretation from ATF done after the passage of the AP Bill 99-408 that was published back in the late 80's early 90's. From what I have gathered recent legislation may have changed on the sale/transfer of AP ammunition that may go beyond the handgun restrictions... but from what I can tell does not restrict possession by cartridge collectors. See my reply in the first level comment section to Ron regarding these and other restrictions/prohibitions.
I have been building custom guns for the past 41 years… I built a .220 Swift on a Mauser action with a 28-1/2” 416 stainless 1-8 twist barrel a few years ago… I wanted to shoot the 75 plus grain bullets. It is a really nice shooting rifle… I shot 2 factory 50 grain bullets (Old Remington Green Box)… they did not fly apart, but they did reach 4287 on my chronograph… that is 385,830 rpm… I pulled the other 18 bullets.
That being said, my buddy dropped a nice buck antelope with my rifle at 196 yards with a 75 grain Swift Scirocco and I took my goat with my 42” rifles barreled .62 caliber flintlock… so some of us still pack long guns. Thank you for another informative video.
Thank you Ron for what you do .
You are correct about California banning the 50 BMG cartridge, Barrett develop the 416 Barrett, and if I’m not mistaken, the 416 Chi tech was also developed in response to this.
Didn’t Mr Barrett refuse to service law enforcement in the state after that?
@James Cole..it's..cheytac and the 416 was produced from the 408 which was already around.
All banned in Canada now as well. Thanks Trudeau.
The .416 Barrett uses a 50bmg case. It was designed to be a more effective ultra long range round than 50 bmg. That is because the .416 has an amazing BC in certain bullets and weights and they could put even more velocity on the .416 over the .50bmg. The .416 Barrett was legit designed with 1000m or longer shots in mind. I believe they've got a video someplace on UA-cam of a guy ringing a 12" gong at over 2 miles with pretty good consistency as well. He started at 1000 yards and just kept working out in 200 yd increments banging gongs the whole way. He said he thought he could make it to over 2.5 miles but they didn't have the room to shoot it that far.
@@mattadams7922iirc the 416 is actually even more powerful than the 50bmg too at ranges longer than 400 yards, because the 416 maintains the speed so much better
In some places Armor Piercing Bullets might be Illegal such as Milt. Surplus Black Tip .30-06 or Tracer Ammo.
In North Carolina Teflon coated bullets are illegal
only handgun rounds
In Texas AP are not illegal just can't pull the bullet and reload in New brass.
Unless the state has some specific law about it, federally speaking and in most states only armor piercing ammo for handguns is Illegal. You can still buy legit military ap rounds for rifles/plenty of hunting rounds which will Pierce armor although its not literally designed to.
As always great content ! Thanks Ron .
i think the illegal bullet question was referring more to armor piercing incendiary, tracer, etc.
That's what I came to watch lol
I tested the .22 Long Rifle myself with a 16.5" barrel an 18" barrel and a 22" barrel. The ones I had. I used the same ammunition in all three and my little test showed the 16.5 to be slow by quite a bit and the 18 in barrel to be 4 fps faster than the 22 inch barrel. The two longer barrels were quite a bit faster than the 16 inch barrel. The fastest was the 18 inch barrel and it was a semi-auto rifle while the other two were bolt actions.
That might be due to barrel quality and twist rate not length
@@AcidGambit419 yeah, while the comparison could be close, it's always better to compare exact like to like by using the same barrel for all the tests. Shoot the longest barrel and cut off an inch, rinse, repeat until you have a definitive answer. Obviously the semi-auto had the disadvantage. I've heard of unlikely rifles having super powers in bullet speed. Those are like unicorns and everyone wants one.
We.did a test at Clerk arms, we started at 22 in. And cut a inch off at a time , with four different barrels and could that 16 inch was the best overall optimal length, with several different ammo types. We manufactured custom 10-22 barrels. That was over twenty-five years ago.
@@AcidGambit419 I'm also thinking a 22 might need be the best round to test this theory and may need larger rounds to get that good efficiency with longer barrel vs 4 fps.
Don’t tell that to the NRL22 crowd which mostly uses 16” barrels lol..
Watching this, I suddenly remembered pictures I have seen of the Nazi's Paris Siege Gun,
Thank you for producing all the quality shows that you do I watch you for an extensively long period of time thank you again
Thank you, Charles.
I'd like to see some of the older calibers make a comeback. I've always wanted a 257 Roberts ,300 Savage and 32 Winchester Special. The 257 has always been a cartridge that has interested me. Where I live up here in the NC mountains, 100 yrds and less is the average distances we shoot at. A short, light bolt action with a 3×9 scope chambered in the 257 would be absolutely perfect for deer hunting. The light recoil would make even a 5 lb rifle a dream to carry and shoot and the 257 with a 117 gr bullet is a surprisingly effective deer round from everything I've read. And the 32 Special is just a cool sounding name for a cartridge and more effective on deer than a 30-30 from everything I've read back when we actually had real magazines to read. I'm a big lever action fan and always will be because they are so light and easy to handle in the woods. They also have a fit and feel that no other rifle has. I guess that all of the hot new calibers are great, but personally I don't think that they do anything that the good ol calibers can't do. The old 06 is still the most versatile caliber around and always will be. I just like the older calibers that served their purpose perfectly fine the way they were. If a bow hunter can get to 35 yrds of a trophy elk and make the kill, why do rifle hunters think that they have to make 600 yrd shots to get the very same trophy? It just doesn't seem logical to me except that they can brag about the half a mile shot that they made. The closer you get the less things there are to go wrong and have a chance of losing your game. If you can get close then you can brag about how good of a hunter you are. That's just me, so whatever rocks your socks is cool as long as you have the skill and discipline to know when to not pull the trigger. That's the important part of hunting. You've got to know your limits and have the discipline to not go beyond those limits. Keep up the great work Ron. You're an awesome guy with a wealth of knowledge to share and we appreciate you sharing that knowledge with all of us, young and old.
You are correct on many levels. The 257 Roberts and 32 Special are great rounds, but sadly will not be coming back. They've been replaced by shiny new toys.
As to all these "long range " shooters. Few people are proficient at it. Any of us can do it at a bench, in the field is a totally different ballgame. A miss on paper or steel only damages an ego. A miss in the field leaves a wounded animal, which usually is recovered, yet dies a horrible death. Personally I believe it is immoral for most of these "long range " heroes to be in the field. But they can afford the latest, greatest rifle and scope combo. Can our beautiful game animals afford them in the field? Can we hunters afford the public scrutiny? I think not.
I'm glad you spoke of abilities and adhering to self imposed limits.
The Robert's is a great round, but is pretty comparable to the 243, which is why it supplanted it. Very little difference between them, and they still produce the 243's parent case en masse. I agree it's a shame seeing great calibers left behind.
Try finding a CZ527 in 7.62x39mm it is perfect for the range you are talking about. Weighs less than my 10/22
The 257 roberts is a great round that was derived by necking down a 7x57 case. It is a fantastic cartridge for deer size game with good hunting bullets from 100 grains up to 120 grains. The 32 special is also a great round for short range hunting for deer sized game. It’s one of the many great cartridges that came from necking down a 38-55 case, including the 30-30. The only appreciable difference between a 30-30 and 32 special is the diameter of the bullet. Otherwise, they are basically identical.
@@jk-kr8jt Last year I had an 8 point buck walk 25 feet in front of my blind. I had fallen asleep in there and the sound of him breaking a twig or something woke me up.
I had him cleaned and hanging on the pole within an hour of sun up on opening day. Best hunting ever.
I think that first quest really comes down to the gas expansion limit. So long as the gas pressure made from the powder keeps expanding the bullet will keep picking up speed. But once the expansion ends the friction of the barrel takes over, which is what happens with .22 cal .
Great stuff, Ron!💪🏽
I have also read about irregular pressure spikes in certain low charge cartridges, it sounds like the powder is of such low density , that when laid horizontal the primer ignites the top layer. Im assuming the burn rate of the powder plays a factor in what happens next
Higher density powder...lower case volume filled resulting in the propellant charge spread over larger area upon ignition when held as you noted...
You talk just like my step father. Everything about ammo,handloading etc.
I love it! Thank you for the very educative videos as always!🤘
Lethality debate
In 1982, NBC broadcast a television special on Teflon-coated bullets that argued they were a serious threat to American law enforcement because of their supposedly increased ability to penetrate ballistic vests. This led various US gun control organizations to label these types of bullets with the epithet "cop killers". In 1983, US Representative Mario Biaggi reported that Du Pont Company officials agreed to stop selling teflon to individuals and companies that used it to make ammunition.[4]
Several calibers of KTW rounds were proven to penetrate ballistic vests under certain conditions. However, their inventor Kopsch said in a 1990 interview that "adding a Teflon coating to the round added 20% penetration power on metal and glass. Critics kept complaining about Teflon's ability to penetrate body armor [...] In fact, Teflon cut down on the round's ability to cut through the nylon or Kevlar of body armor."[2]
Legal status
United States
The federal ban on armor-piercing pistol ammunition uses only the composition of the bullet's core to determine legality.[5] However, many individual states have legislation restricting various kinds of coating materials, for example:
Alabama state law provides that "the possession or sale of brass or steel teflon-coated handgun ammunition is illegal anywhere within the State of Alabama".[6]
Hawaii state law prohibits the "manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of ... any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof coated with teflon or any other similar coating designed primarily to enhance its capability to penetrate metal or pierce protective armor."[7]
Kansas state laws states possessing, manufacturing, causing to be manufactured, selling, offering for sale, lending, purchasing or giving away any cartridge which can be fired by a handgun and which has a plastic-coated bullet that has a core of less than 60% lead by weight, whether the person knows or has reason to know that the plastic-coated bullet has a core of less than 60% lead by weight is unlawful.[8]
North Carolina state law specifically forbids persons in that state to "import, manufacture, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any Teflon-coated bullet".[9]
Oklahoma - Teflon-coated bullets are illegal in Oklahoma under some circumstances.[10]
Oregon state law forbids the possession of any handgun ammunition, the bullet or projectile of which is coated with Teflon while committing or intending to commit a felony.[11]
Pennsylvania state law provides that "It is unlawful for any person to possess, use or attempt to use a KTW teflon-coated bullet or other armor-piercing ammunition while committing or attempting to commit" certain enumerated "crime[s] of violence".[12]
South Carolina state law specifically bans "ammunition or shells that are coated with polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon)".[13]
Virginia state law specifically bans "bullets, projectiles or other types of ammunition that are: coated with or contain, in whole or in part, polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon) or a similar product" while committing or attempting to commit a crime.[14]
As for the legality of ammunition-
I am a FFL holder and I have posed this questions to atf and here is the answer I got, which I subsequently read in the regs: no particular ammunition in and of its self is illegal to possess, buy, or sell, in other words, it's not regulated, EXCEPT for armor piercing pistol or handgun ammunition. Here's where it gets a little more broad: no rifle ammunition is regulated, including armor piercing ammunition AS LONG AS IT IS USED IN A RIFLE. So, for example, you can have steel core 7.62x39 or 5.56 as long as you are using it in a rifle. However, if you have a pistol in that caliber, you can not use that ammunition in it because that's a pistol and now you're using "armor piercing pistol ammunition". So, any ammunition is legal as long as it's not AP or not used in a pistol. Now, I read that and spoke to the atf agent about it more than twenty minutes ago so the regulation light have changed, so I say do your own research, ask questions for yourself, and stay out of trouble with the atf. I hope that somewhat helps.
Some States like New Jersey, outlaw hollow point bullets except for New Jersey police. This lead to New York police that travel through New Jersey getting arrested because they carry hollow points. 😂
In North Carolina Teflon coated bullets are illegal
@@TheChristonlineTeflon so called “ Cop 🙄Killer” rounds are so 1980s. Que Michael Jackson and let’s get some big hair goin too. Just more ridiculous nonsense someone created to pretend to be relevant🥺
Places like New Jersey are ran like a dictatorship F THAT!
@TheChristonline why lol let me guess environment concerns 😂
I wouldn't want Teflon clogging up the rifling or lands and grooves in my barrels so I wouldn't use it anyway.
You're doing a great job Ron the only bullet I can remember being outlaws was the Winchester talon
Glaser Safety slug
"ap" ammo
Talons were never banned, Winchester got ahead of the bad press and just re-released it as their ranger ammo.
@@MyLonewolf25"ap" pistol ammo. Rifle ammo is fine.
@@sinisterthoughts2896 except that its been used to ban much imported ammo
An armor piercing round (the complete cartridge) is illegal in the US. However, the projectile isn't. Therefore if one can obtain a .308 AP bullet, he can legally hand load it into a .308 cartridge.
"An armor piercing round (the complete cartridge) is illegal in the US"
That's not necessarily true. Certain types of AP ammunition are legal, other aren't.
30.06 black tip is completely legal as complete ammunition, AP 9mm on the other hand isn't legal to sell to civis.
only armor piercing PISTOL ammo is regulated federally.
@@alexdrockhound94975.7 has enough velocity to slip through vests
Wrong, AP is not "illegal" as a blanket statement that is false.
@@O5FS federally armor piercing is defined by the bullets construction materials not by its actual ability to pierce armor.
The barrel question the calculation is specific to the type of powder used. Some powders create greater gas volume in a shorter period of time and you would see greater diminishing returns with a longer barrel and could cause problems with chamber over pressure, but choosing a slower burning powder when handloading for a rifle with a longer barrel will cause less chamber stress and will allow you to use much longer barrels. The point of diminishing ( velocity) return would with a slower burning powder based on the amount of friction a specific bullet has in that type of barrel ( in pounds per square inches) and the length when the volume of the barrel is able to be filled with greater in pressure with the expanding gases.
I saw a comment about the experiment and had head about it before but I’ve never seen the video they reference but that experiment is only meaningful based upon that specific bullet they were using, the specific type of powder used in those shells, and (to a lesser degree) the material the barrel is made out of. Any findings become far less meaningful just by switching the powder, the bullets, or even sometimes the manufacturer lot on those items since there is always a little variation no matter how much the manufacturers try for consistency.
Love the advice and experiences, wisdom. Think the illegal bullet question, goes to local gun laws, cali, and hunting regs.😊
They tend to frown , on blk tallons, rino killers, armor piercing, cop killers, and explosive tip. FMJ for hunting.Just to save him a visit from the ATF.😳😳
Ask a class 2 gunsmith, he'll know.and keep you out of jail.
My first big bore rifle was a 1891 Argentine 7.65 Mauser with a 28" barrel. The nod to making it a sporting rifle was a turned down bolt and shorting the stock. When I got some more money I added Lyman peep sight and a nice front ramp. I also shortened the barrel by 4". I don't know how much velocity I lost but WOW did the muzzle flash increase. The only ammo I could get was re-manufactured military at first, then I made a friend that had a reloading setup and I bought a set of dies. The 7.65 Mauser took the same sized bullet as the .303 British, .312, which at that time came in 150 & 180 grain. Being able to hand-load sure saved me a lot of time and effort in cleaning after shooting military ammo with corrosive primers, no more boiling water to clean the barrel out.t other
Armor piercing bullets are now illegal. Years ago they were not because they were on the surplus ammo market. They were forbidden at the rifle range so I would take paint thinner and remove the brown paint from the bullet tip. Year around I shot 40 rounds of .30-06 every Friday then go on to shoot my other rifles or pistols.
In reference to sizing cases that are only going to be shot in the same rifle, the Lee ultimate die set comes with an extra die that only resizes the neck. I’ve been reloading 223 for a while for AR’s so I haven’t worried with using it, but I just got a bolt action 223 last weekend. I loaded 50 rounds the other night that were fired in that rifle so we’ll see if it makes much of a difference next weekend.
In my experience, there's no overall appreciable difference. It depends too much on the quirks of an individual rifle. I've had some rifles prefer neck sized brass, some that preferred shoulder bumped brass, some that preferred full length sized brass.
That’s a good and affordable die set. Eventually you probably will need to FL size those neck only sized cases.
The best shooters in the world full length size their brass. For a reason. Neck sizing is fudd lore. Look up Eric cortina and you'll understand
Great comment.
@@chrisgunsandguitars1403the lee 'ultimate' set they sell comes with a full length, neck sizing, crimping and seater die
You are correct sir, California is the place where you will find crazy laws on bullets. If I am not mistaken, San Francisco county made ALL hollow-point rounds illegal about 6-8 years ago. I think that rule still stands today.
Yes, and those laws are totally unconstitutional, California residents should sue the state and get those laws repealed.
My favorite hunting rifle has a 28 inch barrel, thin profile. I get really good speeds from 150gr boat tails from a 7.62x63 cartridge, and the rifle is not too heavy or long to move through rough country on foot.
since you did not specify an "R" at the end, i'm assuming that is the standard .30-06 ?
@@rwLincoln I was, the 7.62x63 is the same thing. Are you thinking of the 7.62x54R? Despite the shorter length the power is very close to the 30-06.
With the question about bullet seating depth. With a bunch of the high power shooters i know, they will do very precise bullet seating so that the bullet engages the lands and grooves when chambered to specifically prevent any issues with offsetting of the bullet during firing with a long deep seated bullet.
Yes, some use the crush the bullet into the rifling. They did this to help improve powder burn consistency. This was supposed to help accuracy.
Most accuracy buffs don't do that much any more. Modern technics in chambering and bullet fit in the throat of the chamber has overshadowed the older technics.
Most find loading the bullet back away from the rifling the right distance greatly improved accuracy much more than bullet crush seating.
Some manufacturers recommend a lot of bullet jump. Some bullets need more jump than others. It can vary from lightly touching the rifling to as much as .060 off the lands.
So the thumbnail for this video shows what I can only guess to be Accelerator rounds with the title "Illegal ammo" when it comes to the subject you just pretty much said well military rounds are not accepted in certain European countries and that was the end of the conversation, I would have dearly loved it if you had elaborated at least on the rounds that were in your thumbnail!!! 😠
Most people don't realize that tracer rounds are regulated as “explosive materials” under federal law, and that the ATF has many special rules related to the purchase, sale, storage, and transportation of tracer rounds (including the requirement that both the buyer and seller of tracer rounds hold a federal explosives ...found this on illegal bullets. Thought it was regulated when you talked about illegal bullets.
As always good show. On the last coyote question. I'd either use a 22 Creedmoor or the wildcat 22-243, or the venerable 22-250. Either one will push that bullet north of 4200fps and you can get a higher BC bullet out of the mix.
I like your thinking! Did the standard twist .22-250 long ago. Then tried the .22/284 in a rechambered 28" Browning single shot and a 32" barreled Railgun. It did a few things well... like wear out barrels and make use language often considered inappropriate! I've got a reamer for the .22 Creedmore and have kinda fallen in love with the .22-243 that has so far been able to exceed 4,000 fps in a 25.5" barrel with multiple powders using 62 grain FMJ's! Am going to check out loads with 75 grain ELD's, et al. It will easily blow through .5" AR500 with the 62 grain bullets blasting a scab from the backside of the plate!
Your content is always welcomed.. Thank you
Thanks again Ron , how about discussing moly coated bullets ? Been shooting them for 25 years with good results !……
I'd buy a Ron Spomer hat!
The .22lr has some interesting characteristics in rifles because it is such a small powder load. It's rimfire produces a superior powder ignition over most centerfire primers in that it creates a shockwave around the rear of the casing that creates a compressive blast. The primer itself is what causes the bullet to start traveling unlike larger ammunition types - the rear of the .22lr bullet is a spindled-cup that is forced against the barrel by pressure much like the pellets for a pellet rifle. .22lr is sensitive to barrel temperatures as well, I've got an old Ruko M20 with the heavier barrel, about 2.5x the mass that the Ruger 10/22 has in its barrel and the first five or six rounds fired on a hot day perform differently! The performance of a .22lr is also changed by the firing mechanism since there's no engagement on any of the semi-autos in the caliber it suffers from a fairly violent cycle but in bolt action .22lr you will get much better performance and, honestly, cleaner barrels after firing a lot of rounds. Since .22lr is "junk" ammunition not a lot of care is put into it, even with the garbage all the companies are calling "long range", so if you're going to do .22lr don't worry about the ammo; green and white box is good enough and just find a gun that works very well for you. To be honest since they're so cheap you should have a .22lr bolt in your collection for teaching and practice.
I’ve been studying this issue for a while. I came up with my own arbitrary definition of what is acceptable minimum barrel length. That is when the additional velocity gain per inch of barrel length is 1% of the muzzle velocity of the bullet at that barrel length.
Based on data I have collected from other people’s tests on the Internet And some spreadsheet calculations, I estimate that a .308 (with a 150 or 168 grain bullet, I forget which) reaches ~2500fps at 16”, and the velocity gain per inch is 25 fps. The velocity gain per inch drops about 1 fps per inch of barrel length so at 17” you get another 24 fps, at 18” you get another 23 fps, all the way out to about 40 inches where, as you said the velocity levels off.
A similar trend applies with .223/5.56 NATO. 2800 fps at 19”, and you get an additional 28 fps per inch of barrel length. I got this value from averaging the velocity of a whole lot of cartridges and bullet weights (that other people fired and shared their data on the Internet). This is the average for that cartridge, not for any given load.
Clearly, the more overbore the cartridge and the lighter the bullet, the longer barrel you need to take advantage of the powder.
Thanks to rifleshooter.com and ballisticsbytheinch.com, to start with, for their data. Hopefully, as time passes, I will have it together enough to make public my spreadsheet, along with citations to all of the people who did the testing.
Thanks for all you do, RON!
The partial or neck sizing question does not apply to auto loaders. You should always full length resize brass tired from a semi auto
Usually, partial or neck resizing is asking for trouble in anything but bolt actions.
Barrel length discussion is really interesting. You discussed the practical maximum lengths of barrel’s, and what stands out in my memory is some testing of military barrels. One Study was on how short can a barrel be made before accuracy and velocity starts to become impractical.
One interesting result was seen with progressive shorting of a barrel. The testing started with a standard length barrel with a specific bullet and powder. The barrel was shortened by a small amount, until accuracy and velocity degraded.
Most barrels could be shortened significantly before large changes in velocity and accuracy.
Precision does not decrease with a shorter barrel. I don't know who started this myth, but the opposite is true if anything.
A shorter barrel of the same diameter (external) will be more rigid and thus more precise.
@@WaterZer0 i started researching traditional long range shooting. 1850 and forward. The shooting match distance is. 300,600,900,1000 yards.
The Whitworth and Henry riffled barrels have the ideal length of 28”. The rifled part of barrel 26 “. long by modern standards, but in 1850 many “long “ range muzzle loading rifles were much longer than that. See Kentucky rifle!
It'd be interesting if you did something on gun modifications. I have/had a book on improving rifle accuracy where it told of several little things. But like it mentioned using a gritty material to smooth the bore out, then cryogenic treatment of the barrel. I do not know, but it'd seem both of these would reduce friction in the barrel.
Your memory about .50 BMG in California is correct. I think the CA legislature got scared by the first Robocop movie that used a dressed up Barret as a prop for some of the bad guys.
Regarding bullet diameters, keep in mind that there are TWO measurements of interest: bore diameter and bullet diameter. The bullet must be wider than the bore, in order to fill the rifling. Typically, a bullet is 7 or 8 thousandths bigger than the bore. Thus a 30 caliber bore is 0.3 inches, but the bullet for it is 0.308 inches. Another interesting one is the .257; lots of "old-timers" or people who are really into the 257 caliber call them the "quarter bore," because the bore is exactly a quarter inch. 7mm = 0.276" bore but uses a 0.284" bullet. etc.
Right. Or let's really muddy the waters with land diameter, groove diameter and groove depth. Or the way the British would name some cartridges based on lands, grooves, bores or none of the above. Hard to believe that gun manufacturers a 100 years ago imagined the internet and the millions of conversations that would take place because of their name game.
@@jk-kr8jt Another one that occurred to me: What is the bore diameter of the 270 Winchester? Exactly 0.270" lol. Bullets are 0.277 though, of course.
New Jersey has a ban on hollow point ammo. Other places ban ammo containing lead. Its to the point you need to check the local laws yourself.
Here in Australia I have found a local manufacturer called outer edge bullets, they make a hunting, copper bullet that has a ball bearing tip over a large hollow cavity. They claim to be aerodynamically superior and have a better terminal performance than polimer tips. Do you have experience with these or a similar USA made version?
That bullet design is pretty old. Hoxie is a company name that was making loaded ammo with a similar design as far back as the 1920s I think.
Hey Ron! Always like having the 6mm Remington mentioned. That was the centerfire I learned distance marksmanship on; my dad's old R700 varminter to be exact. (Early 70s vintage, 24" bull barrel). We worked up a load with this new bullet Hornady had released, the 55gr "super explosive" for the woodchuck that were digging up our fields. (The bullet had a thinner than average jacket, just enough to remain cohesive at around 3750fps. Above that it would break apart mid flight.) Loaded right at the edge of that, fully tuned up, my dad and I were shooting about .1 MOA. Fun to be pinging a target at 300 yards and ending up with 3 round groupings that you could cover with a quarter. Honestly ruined me (a little bit) for less accurate rifles. But it did foster an interest in extreme ballistics!
So on to my question; Back in the day I had "The Book of .22." that talked extensively about the caliber and as many wildcats and production cartridges as they could get good numbers on. Naturally the .220 swift was featured, the comparison between it and the .22-250 discussed, etc. But what really tickled my 12 year old imagination was the .226 barnes. IIRC the numbers quoted in the book were a 125gr bullet, at around 2450fps. Have you heard of that cartridge? I'm curious if something like that might make a comeback given the trend towards higher BC bullets, especially in the PRC line. I could see a .22 PRC driving a modern 125gr 22 bullet at ~2700 fps being very popular as a long range match round. What do you think?
Fusako, I don't think a 22 long range round will dominate. Hits are difficult to spot on steel. Barrel burn out might also be a concern. The 226 Barnes QT is listed in P.O. Ackley book as 257 AI case necked down to take a .226" bullet. 125-gr. bullet at 2,700 fps. 5.5" twist barrel.
Ron, I'll go with you being that good 👍🏼. Keep up the great work and thanks to both you and the team for this great resource.
Thanks Frank. Appreciate it.
I took a small mule deer one time with a 22.250. 6.5 Swedish Mauser with a 24" bull barrel, 14 lbs with scope. It was about 100 yards. Hit him in the backbone which exploded into the heart and he dropped dead. It's not all about how you hit, it's what you hit.
Thanks for all your videos ! Really informative .How many times do you reload your cartridges before replacing and do you anneal your case when preparing them ?
Reloads per case is highly variable depending on the case maker and the pressure of the load. I don't anneal mainly because I work with and test so many different rifles and ammo that I rarely (these days) load and fire a lot of ammo more than 3 or 4 times before moving on. Years ago, however, I'd usually get 5 or 6 loadings from high pressure cartridges like 6mm Rem., 270 Win., and 22-250.
Ron, in PA bullets that are teflon coated or "KTW" coated bullets are illegal as they are specifically designed to defeat body armor. Any other ammunition to defeat "armor" are illegal to possess and are considered a Felony to possess. (The law is essentially designed around handgun rounds designed to defeat soft body armor)
K, T, and W were and perhaps still are a coroner, a police officer, and a coroner's investigator. The Teflon coating was applied to reduce bore wear, not enhance penetration of body armor. K, T, and W saw the opposite in their testing, in fact; they found that the Teflon interfered with penetration in body armor. I believe I found an interview on-line with one of these three gentlemen by searching for "ktw bullet" with my preferred search engine.
Ron great information as always. Just my uneducated rambling but I think any size bullet will do the job IF you do your part and put it in the right spot!! I'm not saying you should use a 17 Remington to kill a bull 6x6 elk,a larger caliber will do the job more humanely at the same distance but, and like I've read in the comments, good woodsman practice is better than making a half mile shot get as close as you can to your prey to eliminate errors in marksmanship or external interference, ie that small limb you couldn't see through your high power scope. I love shooting long range and extreme long range but i leave that on the range when hunting, get close as you can or get them to come as close to you as you can! Again thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us that will listen.
The true measure of a hunter is how close he can get to his quarry. This shows knowledge of environment, weather and behavior patterns of the animal in question. I see too many goobers with belted magnums shooting the tiny whitetail deer here in west Georgia when the humble .30-30 Win. will do the job just as effectively. I haven't taken a deer in many years, but have dry fired at them from the stand just to test myself. I much prefer to remove nuisance creatures from the woods (feral hogs) because they are in season all year long mostly and my busy season is deer season.
It's important to note that the wider bores have less to gain from increased barrel length assuming they share relatively the same parent case dimensions, operate at the same pressures and have very similar useable case volume.
An extreme example would be .204 Ruger vs .350 Legend. The .204 from an 8.5 inch barrel would be losing most of its potential energy while the .350 will have already picked up most of it at that length.
The "odd" size of the 38 is from a change from an older round that used a heel crimp bullet. It used a bullet that was .38 inch in diameter, the same as the case size, when they went smokeless powder and higher pressure they increased the case length and went to a bullet was changed to be set inside the case it became a bullet diameter of .357. The 44 went through the same prosses.
The 32 long colt is still a heeled bullet.
The 32 rimfire. Was same as long colt except 32 colt converted to centerfire and was slightly longer case. I have 22,25,32 rimfire rifles, referred to as garden guns. I don't have a garden shotgun they were around 38- 9 mm. Brass shot shell. Like the old 22 rat shot. I also have a 32 Remington rolling block. Was a rinfire. I converted it to center fire and made the chamber length longer. Shoots the 32 long colt brass. Cast my own heeled bullets. Use smokeless powder. The rolling block is a strong action. GARDEN GUNS DONT RECHAMBER.
26:03 is where Ron gets to the title.
Thank you for this!
We are missing Covey. When will your sidekick put in an appearance?
Ah, Covey is waiting in the wings.
I wonder if the bullet question was asking about specialty rounds like armor piercing, tungsten core or tipped bullets, specialty rounds used in shotguns for military or police specific tasks. Tracer rounds may be banned in certain categories of land to prevent fires?
Ron love your show Was just wondering If you were going after the big 5 of north America with only one caliber What would it be besides the magnums My choice the 30-06
One cartridge not one caliber .
Great information! Thank You!
In reference to the bullet being "bent" when seated deep into the case ... only time I've heard of this before was from an old timer 40 years ago who was introducing me to reloading. He was adamant about seating depth using cast bullets, stating that if seated too deep into a compressed load, they could be deformed.
On a side note, his first lesson was to hand me Vol1 & Vol2 of P.O. Ackleys handbook for reloaders, shooed me out of his reload room and told me to come back when I had read and understood them. I still have those two books on my shelf today!
Good video Ron, thank you for posting this video !!
Thanks Tex. Glad you enjoyed it.
Federally depleted uranium bullets (armor piercing) are legal only in rifle calibers. There's restrictions on handgun AP ammo. The more important thing is to check your local F&G regulations as they like have restrictions on either bullets or which cartridges you may use for game.
Was about to post that "armor-piercing" handgun ammo (loaded cartridges) are unlawful for sale due to laws at the federal level passed back in the 80s? or early 90s? The definition of bullets used for such ammo is carefully spelled out. In fact, the ban on further imports of the inexpensive Norinco steel-core 30Sov (7.62*39) came about because Olympic Arms of WA (now thankfully long past!) developed their AR-style "handgun" in the chambering despite industry-wide pleas not to go there... Idiots.
I wonder if someone made an osmium or iridium round (the 2 most dense elements, and they are absurdly expensive and thus impractical) if that would be illegal.
An aside to this, if you did fire a bunch of DU rounds I wonder if the EPA might have legal grounds to come after you for polluting the environment with radioactive material.
Of course DU isn't very radioactive on the scale of things, but it is something you want to steer clear of because it is very poisonous, considerably worse than lead.
MDT SPORTING GOODS did a video on the barrel length of 6ft! they had 2 barrels that screwed together if i remember correctly and cut a couple inches after shooting each round
was a great vid!
Yup. Their graph show a fairly steady increase in velocity to about 45", then it flattened out somewhat and eventually got to a few fps faster at around 65"!
I looked it up...
ua-cam.com/video/XCqa2umL8ME/v-deo.html
You people need to learn how to use exclamation points
@@IvanIvanoff-d4p Gee, idunno. My life is pretty boring and, believe it or not, watching that video was one of the most exciting things that happened to me yesterday.
Note, however, that it was only one exclamation points, not several followed by a train of emogees.!!!
😀😁😆😍🤭
Thanks for your interesting and informative videos.
On the topic of illegal bullets, the DOJ sites bullets that are prohibited and a felony in possession off include; bullets made for penatrating metal, or protective vest, bullets that include a "flechette" or dart, and bullets that contain an explosive. The radioactive projectile you mentioned would of course be included in the Armour piercing category.
As a side rumor I have heard of bullets made of very frangible material used by assassins...as to leave no trace for forensic evaluation.
Can you point to a particular document? I know that Armor Piercing pistol bullets are illegal, but I am not so certain about rifle bullets. I have seen pulled AP bullets for sale. There are a number of sites on UA-cam showing people shooting various AP bullets, often against body armor.
none of those are illegal in the states... armor piercing is sadly illegal when in conjunction with a pistol however an armor piercing pistol caliber is not illegal/9mm gets fishy bc of carbines and why you never see it. but youll see 223 and 308 cal bullets and 50 bmg black tips for sale.
you can currently buy frangible and armor piercing ammo.
assasins pistols are usually a pellet gun with pellets made of frozen dissolvable chemicals. "CIA heartattack gun"
or russia's umberlla gun.
"Armor piercing" pistol rounds. Rifle rounds are fine.
Once fired cases should always be full length resized before you reload them for your rifle just in case the rifle they were originally fired in was a bit oversized! It would be terrible to reload 100 rounds and then find the won't chamber in your rifle! After they've been fired in your rifle, if you want to keep from work hardening your brass by only neck sizing. However, I always full length size all my brass in case my hunting buddy needs to borrow a couple rounds sometime, or if I have two rifles chambered for the same cartridge!!
My dad and I only ever resized the neck when reloading. Less wear and tear on the case, fire formed brass, and slightly increased case capacity.
You should do a video of forgotten cool old rounds...like the 218 bee or 219 zipper or 22hornet or 32-20 or 38-55 Alot of early firearms and why they are obsolete now...well not totally gone but harder to find...i remember seeing some weird 44 cal pistol but wasn't a 44 rem magnum...
On barrel length, P O Ackly did a lot of work trying to get a few more foot per seconds out of cartriges that were 'staightened' and sholders pushed forwards. Good stuff.
The Swedish M39B seems to be illegal in Texas since it's a 9mm Armor Piercing.
CA banned 50bmg, AP, tracer, incendiary(including dragons breath) and flachette, however, 12 gauge tracers are LEGAL. san fran and new jersey banned hollow points, and maybe other states/cities have too, this is from memory. AP pistol cartridges are banned nation wide.
Edit: CA did not ban 50 cal, just specifically 50bmg.
The mismatch between nominal and real size in bullets gets really interesting when you get into handloading.
For instance, the Barnes TTSX doesn't come in 45-70. But the bullet in a 45-70 cartridge is actually .458, and Barnes does sell a .458 TTSX under .458 SOCOM. Load that in a 45-70 case using the data for the corresponding weight TSX and you have a polymer-tipped monolithic 45-70.
Many jurisdictions (states or game management areas) prohibit lead bullets. Incendiary or exploding bullets are completely banned or banned for hunting.
Ron, check out ballistics by the nice. Several cartridges slow down or increase slowly after 16”
I think he was asking about which bullets were illegal. For example, steel or tungsten cored projectiles.
We also have to take into account the type of powder used. Some powder burns really fast for pistol barrel length, and other powders will burn slower for rifle length barrels. I also need to consider the type of country I am hunting in as to what I am going to use. If I am in wide open flat grasslands versus very scrubby chaparral or heavily wooded areas or extremely hilly terrain, or canyonlands, I cannot take nearly as many long range shots. Shooting across a canyon at game no matter how tempting it looks may result in a carcass that is impossible to retrieve, or a serious injury from trying.
IMO, Ron, I believe that question on illegal bullets was directed to steel core, or armor piercing rounds.
Great podcast, thanks...
As far as illegal bullets/cartridges go what about tracers, exploding bullets, hollow points like the "Black Talon," etc? Could you address these other styles of bullets that sit at the line between illegal and legal?
Of course in the muzzle loader flintlock days, a 42 inch or longer barrel was quite common, even for hunting.
Find a bullet with a higher BC and it'll do as much or more for you as a couple inches of barrel.
It is my experience that a hole in the heart is a hole in the heart. And this leads to death. The timeline for this death is affected by animal size and hole size but generally for white tail. 10 seconds for blood loss to cause death. What happens in that ten seconds is of concern. If the deer sprints for 10 seconds through the Forrest, it can be difficult to find if a sufficient blood trail is not available. Personally I like not tracking deer. High cavitation events can cause a deer to get "knocked out". Literally, passed out from trauma. If it stayed knocked out for that entire 10 sec, the deer never gets up. But make no mistake, it wasn't killed instantly. It was knocked out instantly and died sometime after.
Sounds like a pretty reasonable explanation, bafumat.
6.5 Grendel, I love it for black tail, perfect lil round.
I remember i had a bunch of black talons when they became illegal in Michigan in 357.
The barrel length vs velocity also depends on gunpowder grain.
Something like short flake for pistols will burn off faster (and probably blow out your chamber on a shouldered case) vs something long rod.
Regarding the bullet being seated into the case “bending” the projectile. It doesn’t bend the bullet but it can “pinch” the projectile creating a negative donut that doesn’t contact the rifling. I’ve personally experienced this making my own jacketed projectiles with a Corbin swaging press. I was making 220 gr round nose rbt projectiles for .308 subsonic use. Upon projectile recovery I found rings around the projectiles with no rifling engraving that would’ve been located at the neck shoulder junction. This was with a fast burning powder (trailboss)
As far as I understand, steel core armor penetrating bullets are illegal. Also im not sure spent Uranium bullets are legal or not… very interesting though!
I believe California outlawed bullets containing lead in certain areas.
Knew someone who hunted exclusively from “condos” across expansive fields, creek bottoms, etc. He used a 36” bbl. .300 Wby. All of the windows had padded rests that would look good at a rifle range. He firmly believed that the extra velocity had put a lot of meat in the freezer. Also had to modify the roof on his side by side to accommodate the longer barrel. It’s all about what you’re willing to put up with.
That's a wild one!. Thanks Gerry.
I like that wall plaque.
On the barrel length question, it all has to do with the velocity of the bullet at impact and does it have the necessary velocity for good expansion at the maximum distance you plan on shooting deer or whatever. Most hunters see about 300 yards as their max shooting range for ethical hunting.
Most people would agree that, for a hunting rifle chambered in 308 Win, 22" is about as long as you want to carry in the field. That will get a 180gr bullet to about 2,525 fps and a 150gr bullet to about 2,720 fps. An 18" barrel is what many would consider to be minimum length for that 308 Win rifle, and that puts a 180gr bullet at about 2,410 fps and a 150gr bullet at about 2,600 fps.
At 300 yards, that 22" 180gr bullet is down to 2,010 fps and from an 18" barrel it's down to 1,910 fps.
At 300 yards, that 22" 150gr bullet is down to 2,040 fps and from an 18" barrel it's down to 1,940 fps.
In both cases the 18" barrel length is adequate for the 308 win to kill a deer a 300 yards since it has sufficient velocity to make the bullet expand and enough power to penetrate deeply enough for a clean kill.
My personal 308 hunting rifle has a 20" barrel and it's very nice in the field.
Of course, not every rifle is the same and not every caliber will perform well from a shorter barrel. Plus, some people like to shoot farther than others and some have no need to shot more than 100 yards. But that's why we have so many different rifles and calibers.
28:00 I think Chris would be better off with 75 grain VMAX rather than 58 if they are going to 400+ yards, the energy on target is nearly 50% higher at 400 yards with the 75s higher B.C, it even overtakes it energy wise somewhere around the 200 yard mark.
The m1891 Mosin-Nagant had a barbell length of 29 in, the 1895 Lee Enfield of 30. That was mainly for bayonet fighting, though.
The barrel length issue...have the same conversation with folks about pistol barrel length all the time...would be interesting to see an actual in-depth experiment of that.
.17 caliber (like .17 Hornet, .17HMR, etc.... and which is also the same as a BB's caliber) is a 4.5mm metric caliber, with the actual diameter of 0.172″ (4.32mm)
I've been wanting to build a .17HM2 converted 10/22 for ages. Great round for small game
There are plenty of ammo types that are illegal to import but not really any that are illegal to sell. AP, incendiary, and explosive ammo are all either illegal to import or extremely highly regulated but once they’re in the country you can buy them no problem. There is a limit to how large a civilian explosive charge can be which mostly precludes any explosive ammo bigger than .50 caliber but that’s about it.
Anything carrying an explosive charge greater than the equivalent to half an ounce of tnt is regulated.
@@3sellers3ful thanks. I knew it was a weight equivalency but wasn’t sure what. Just knew the limit was somewhere between a RAUFOSS charge and a military flash grenade.
Full length size for semi autos, neck only for most other actions. Lee collet dies are my go to neck only sizers.
I work at a pawn shop that sells guns and ammo. We were recently surprised to discover that a Taurus G2C 9mm we sold came back with a round stuck in the chamber. The slide would not budge no matter what we did! I took a chance and fired it into our shooting trap, and much to my surprise, the round ejected! I disassembled the firearm and inspected it to the best of my ability only to find that it was perfectly fine. When I chambered another round of the same ammo, the firearm reacted the exact same way! I was able to eject the round safely without firing it again. Afterward, I tested a different brand of ammo in the firearm, and it did just fine. I then tested the first ammo in all Taurus 9mm handguns in our inventory with the same results each time. The ammo in question was PMC Bronze JHP 115 grain ammunition from a 50 round box. The ammo fit just fine in every other brand of 9mm handgun that I tested it in!
Oh Taurus.... Lol
I bought a Taurus Curve because it was cheaper than getting a light/laser for my real handgun.
The Curve is the worst, least reliable "firearm" I've ever had the misfortune of shooting.
@Slimey_garbage_troll I agree that the curve was both useless and unreliable. The G2Cs have proven very reliable in my 9 years of experience in the firearms industry. I was a little surprised by the ammo issue.
As soon as the volume of the bore of the barrel is equal to the volume of the gases produced by the powder charge, it seems like you'd be optimized. After that, it seems like there'd be no additional expansion to provide acceleration, so whatever momentum you've established in the bullet is all you'll get, and spending more time in contact with the rifling against you at that point. (I'm not a physicist, though, so I'm only speculating.)
Also the burn rate of the powder would determine barrel length. Also with open sights accuracy due to sight length becomes a factor.