Ron, I can tell you exactly why a 48 grain from a 220 Swift can penetrate steel but a 30-06 and a 270 cannot. The reason is, because the 48 grain is technically not actually penetrating the steel at all, let me explain. As soon as the 48 grain projectile hits the steel, it instantly disintegrates into a million pieces and no longer exists, however, the impact of the bullet at such an extremely high velocity causes the steel to vibrate so fast that a piece of the steel actually gets pushed out, hence the illusion that the bullet “penetrated” the steel, when it in fact did not. This phenomenon is known as “plugging”.
On a lesser scale I experienced something similar in 222 Rem with Varmint bullets. Whilst the bullets would fragment very easily they would make a hole in steel at least as thick as my 308 would do with a Nosler 150 BTSP.
It's called "spalling" and the armor fragments are called "spall". They bounce around and can injure or kill the occupants. Back in WW1 the tanks' armor was riveted so even if the projectile did not penetrate, the rivets would come loose and bounce around inside the tank.
@@PassivePortfolios Spalling and plugging are different. With plugging, a hole is punched completely through the the metal and a plug of metal slightly larger diameter of the bullet is punched out. This only works with certain grades of steel. Spalling, on the other hand, can work on thicker plates and occurs when the pressure waves break a "scab" of metal off from the interior surface. The scab is typically much larger diameter than the projectile. Here is a video showing plugging (and lots of other cool impacts): ua-cam.com/video/QfFoMyMoiX4/v-deo.html
I dead centered an Aspen sapling when I was shooting at a cow elk at 20 yards with a 338 Win Mag and totally missed her. Got her with follow up shots though.
I love your vlogs Ron. You're a great example of manliness heavily mixed with that of a gentleman. You exhibit the knowledge of my gunsmith Dad with my Grandpap's mannerisms. So watching & listening is akin to family.
Right! On a Hornady podcast, they mentioned that some 6.5-284 loads used in competition were 12,000psi higher than the SAAMI spec, yet showed no "classic pressure signs". With a 5.6 Grendel or 6mm ARC in an AR15, the bolt will be damaged at pressure below those where pressure signs are seen (higher pressures can be run in stronger bolt-actions, though).
@@jfess191112000 over SAAMI doesn’t necessarily mean the round is over pressure, a sturdier action with good heads allows you some wiggle room. Does that mean you should load it all the way up, well that depends on if you’ve done enough research to work out if your gun can handle it, for the majority or guts the answer is no. Those signs though are one of those things you look at and step back a bit and test enough to make sure the signs don’t come back, if you’re trying to push rounds that close I’d assume you should just step up to a whole new cartridge considering the plethora available, but if you do your research and can accept the risk do your thing, but always remember that’s why you never fire someone else’s reloads, especially not in a different rifle.
@@CowboyHunterPodcast You are right, but very few people have the knowledge to determine if their action can handle stresses well beyond that for which it had been tested. I have already mentioned the Grendel and ARC which were limited by the strength of the AR15 bolt. Bolt breakage is common for those who load to "pressure signs" with those cartridges. Most AR-style rifles designed around the 308 have bolts specifically designed for that cartridge with corresponding strength margins. Indeed, bolts are considered a consumable item with many AR's and commonly break beyond certain round counts A pertinent example is the 284 Win, a cartridge with a rebated rim. It was designed to operate in Winchester model 100 and 88, rifles which had been designed around the 308 (and the forces it generated). Although the 284 and 308 have the same rim diameter, the case diameter of the 284 is larger (.50" vs .47"). Since the max bolt backforce is proportional to case diameter, the SAAMI pressure for the 284 was limited to 56,000 psi. This was to keep bolt forces the same as those of the 308. That, of course, led to cases being designed for that max pressure instead of a higher one. This, in turn, forced Norma to limit the max pressure of its 6.5-284 since it was based on the same case and was commonly made from reformed 284 brass. FWIW, It would be interesting to look at a sectioned 6.5 WBY RPM case which is a newly designed, elongated version of the 284 case but has a 65,000psi max pressure. I would like to see if they case walls are thicker near the base.
Hey Mr. Ron! You mentioned Burris scopes being rugged. I purchased an E2 Fullfield on a bargain shop for my Howa 7.62×39. On the first hunt with it, my tree stands tow rope's knot came loose and it fell 15'. I was sick over it. When I took it to the range to redo my zero, it had held perfectly. Hope this helps and keep it up!
Thank you for reading my comment. I too love the Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x36mm, mine was mounted on a T/C muzzleloader and it worked fantastic. It was plenty bright and clear for early mornings and dusk and great eye relief. Leupold makes a very high quality scope. If a hunter is looking for lightweight scope consider fixed power scopes, Leupold makes some great fixed power scopes that are very bright. I have a older Nikon fixed 4X, made in Japan that I will be mounting on 'woods rifle' for hunting in thick cover such as in New England where most shots in the woods are well under 100 yards.
@@edwardabrams4972 I agree. I have owned several Leupold Scopes from long range to hunting and they have all been perfect, they just work flawlessly and are rugged.
Agreed about the .22's question. I have a 10/22 and love it but I'd love to pick up one of the bolt actions like we shot in Boy Scouts. The bolt action really taught you to take each shot as perfectly as possible.
G'day from Aus. , always a pleasure to listen to Ron, even though I live in an area pop. of 400 odd I'd like to get out into the real sticks, just had my birthday, would like to take my pup's out, winter season, the day's are short & the breeze is fresh, Vik 🌅🍻👍😁🐶
Speed defeats armor. The 220 Swift fires a round at close to or over 4000 fps. I have done this with my .243 many times using a 60 gr and 70 gr hand load upwards of 3800 fps. A 3/8" armor plate won't stop the light but high-speed rounds.
I’m just a Mississippi boy . I’ve killed hundreds of deer over the years. 270 win has been my favorite. I bought a 6.8 western last year and a 6.5 creedmoor. Killed a 170 pound 6 point and 6.5 I killed a 200 pound 8 pointer. Love them both just because I haven’t bought a new rifle in over 30 years. Enjoyed the info mr Ron ! Thank you! Love your show!
Where in MS? Down here in the south west and grew up hunting with a 270. Since then I've gone to a 223 and 6.8spc. Got the wife a .25-06 and she keeps the freezer full of deer. I've tried the 300WM and love it. It's heavy but shoots so good out to 1400 yards with 210gr Bergers.
6:50 Because as you approach vastly higher speeds you also approach more fluidity and less solidarity in solids, aka they behave more like plastics or liquids and thus move out of the way as much.
It's hard to beat the good ol fashion 270 Winchester. I used to have a plain ol Savage 110 that came with a 3×9 scope from the factory as I'm sure you can remember, and I was able to shoot off a turkeys head at 125 yards. That's back before we even had a turkey season, so it was legal and I was surprised that with the scope set 1" high at a 100 yards I put a 130 gr CoreLokt right above the wattles and clipped his head right off. I figured that it was just luck but that inexpensive little rifle and scope was surprisingly accurate every shot. I really need to get a rifle because I've only got two shotguns and two pistols at the moment. But I'm good with all four and at the short ranges we shoot here in the NC mountains, a 12 gauge slug is more than enough for the game we have here but I want to save up enough for a good, reasonably priced rifle. I just can't decide on the caliber. The 30-06 is the most versatile, I love the 270 ,a 30-30 is the best handling and best feeling rifle, and I'm a big fan of the 7mm-08. I guess I'll just have to wait until I save enough up and then get whichever one is in stock and the right price at my local gun store. It's a really hard decision for a cartridge nerd like me. 😂
My 7mm-08 has never let me down. I have a messed up back and the recoil is manageable and I can still reach out over 200 yards with it. My first deer with it was 220 yards and dropped in it's tracks. I love that caliber but sometimes it's expensive to get as I only really use the 139g bullets.
Get the 7mm-08. Very versatile, especially if you handload. Light recoil, and easily effective to 300+ yards. If you like lever actions, the BLR is chambered in it, and seems to be capable of MOA or better (barrel is free floated in the more recent models). If you want something for less cost, the Mossberg Patriot and Ruger American have good reps for price point rifles. I just saw Patriots for $440 on SW site. Synthetic, Cerakote, fluted bolt and barrel, and even threaded. I am a carteidge nerd myself. Planning to get a 7mm-08 myself. Most likely a Tikka T3x Lite stainless (currently on sale $780 on their site, normally about $870), or an upper level Wby Vanguard (synthetic and cerakoted, similar price). If those are pricey , you can also get a non-Axis Savage for less than $600 i think, with Accu Trigger, and various stocks. Plus there is Browning, Bergara, etc. Saw the Franchi Momentum on sale for 650 also. Lots of good choices. FWIW, every comment or review i have ever seen on the Tikkas, on here, the SW site, or other places, has been top notch. The Vanguard is right behind them. Last year, SW had the entry level Vanguards in various chamberings on sale for 500 a little before hunting season. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a sale again soon. Good luck with your search
I agree I have several .22 lr rifles I learned on a single shot bolt action having one shot really helped to learn how to shoot accurately and you can shoot.22 long long rifle and shorts in a bolt action but love my old Winchester semiautomatic rifles and my rosi copy of a 1909 pump in .22 win mag
0:25 About 60 years ago, the county built a bridge across a small creek near me. Within a week, one of my older brothers had shot a hole through one of the steel beams. With his .22-250. Drilled right through 3/8 inch of steel. Clean as a whistle.
Ron, you might wish to express upon non hunters that they should purchase a hunting fishing license even if they don’t participate in the hunting, fishing. They sure do like to use the facilities we hunting, fishing populations provide. Boat ramps, hiking trails, etc. Thank you .👍👍👍🇺🇸🙏🏽✌🏻😎
At 23:39 you mention bullet deflection when hitting grass and twigs. A friend of mine (for over 30 years) did.He is a good shot and took his first 50 Deer with 51 cartridges, but he had a clean miss from about 25 yds! Shooting from a High Seat, with his Tikka 243, he completely missed a static Roe Deer at stone throwing range. A week later he visited the same High Seat and noticed a twig that had been broken off, he lined up on where he had shot at the deer and there was the 1/16 inch twig! That tiny twig was enough to cause a clear miss at a few yards. The moral is Ensure your shot is clear before you pull the trigger!
That is true, high velocity spritzer bullets destabilize very ez if they contact any obstacles like grass, leaves, twigs ect. However heavy slower moving bullets deflect much less, eg 45-70, 444 Marlin, 35 rem, and I seen a video with 30-06 220gr rn and it went through brush very well.
20:55 is this the same Phil Shoemaker thats in Buffalo Bores website on the review of the 9mm Outdoorsman +P ammo!!!!?? That just shows life is all one grand simulation
Thanks Ron for all your knowledge. About 9 years ago I shot my first whitetail deer with my fathers Model 721 .270win. Dad gave me his rifle before he passed away. That day I determined that amongst all my other rifles, they would remain in my gun safe from hunting until after I’d taken my first deer with dad’s rifle. Couple years later, it was accomplished. A nice 8pointer was just about to bound into a cedar grove as I hollered and he slammed on the brakes. It was quartering away from about 85 yards away and all I could see was it’s left side and rear as it’s front end was starting into the cedars. The shot hit in its left side and plowed out through the right shoulder area. What amazed me was the damage a 130gr Remington Core-Lock bullet can do. I think sometimes us hunters under estimate the power and damage a rifle bullet can do, on thin skin game like a deer. Thanks for all you do for us and sharing your knowledge and skills.
Ron Your last question of today regarding the 270 or 6.8, I think that if one was to go after bigger game then I think the 6.8 with the heavier bullets would be a wiser choice.
Having several rifles in 6.8 Western here is my take. For elk, the round is on point. I killed a bull at 400 yards and it performed exactly how I expected. For whitetail, it’s too much gun. I killed 5 does between 50 and 300 yards and it was rough on all of them. I rarely regret taking a gun on a hunt and that time I wished I had taken a smaller gun. I ran 175gr Sierras out of it.
If your colour blind even just red/ green stay away from the leupold. I bought one for my 270 was good middle of the day. But any dull light or under spotlight it was too unclear to see through properly due to my colour-blindness. Was like a yellow haze and hard to get on target even on lowest power. Hang towards a more expensive clearer optic khales or swarvozki if you have ever issues
The best formula to defeat armor, which has been shown a few times by Kentucky Ballistics, is a 400 grain, .416 caliber, solid bullet, going at, at least 2400 fps.
Penetration: think about a hammer and a nail. Hit the wood with the hammer, it will make a shallow dent. Hit the nail with the hammer with the same force, the nail will penetrate the wood. The difference is the pounds per square inch on the wood. Add the very high speed of the bullet and total energy in the small impact point, the steel will yield.
In response to the penetration from the 220 Swift, I wonder if it had something to do with the sectional density of the bullet as well as the velocity? The higher the sectional density of any bullet, the better the penetration. It’s just a guess. Thanks for sharing.
It has more to do with the soft lead core and high velocity. This "plugging" effect only occurs with certain grade steels. The bullet fragments, but transfers enough energy to the plate to literally punch out a slug of steel. Here is some high-speed film of plugging: ua-cam.com/video/QfFoMyMoiX4/v-deo.html
"As long as we re thinking all the time" Life lesson there!!!! Like my Grandfather... always saying the simplest things but meaning so much in so many places!! Thanks for the always great content Ron!!!
220 swift answer. Speed and a small barrow bullet. Most bullet proof vests will not stop a 223 but will stop a 308. Frontal mass can be stopped by the material but a 220 or 223 has very low frontal mass and can penetrate the between the weaves. That why serious people use the vest and add plates.
As Ron said; with regards to the magnum calibers, it is true these will offer an extended MPBR of about 30 to 50 yards when compared to a standard caliber, which may be compensated with the aid of a range finder. However, a Magnum caliber will also leave the barrel at a higher speed and buck a cross wind more efficiently. Magnums may also allow the use of a heavier bullet with a higher BC with a similar muzzle velocity of a lighter bullet shot from a standard caliber, thus reducing wind deflecton and giving the hunter a flatter trajectory downrange, which reduces the margin of error while taking a longer shot.
They don't "buck" cross winds better. That's just a calculation of BC by TOF. With identical bullets, a magnum just has a shorter time the wind acts on it.
It really depends on if you care about a trophy or just filling the freezer, for the former it can be necessary to guarantee vital hits from non optimal angles, for filling the freezer go for the head and get better meat out of it
Yep! While I’m not a head shooter (too old and shaky) I have always been a neck shooter, and it’s likewise an instant stop. Using heavy for caliber bullets I shoot just forward of where the neck meets the body in the center of the neck and I’ve never had a deer take a step after being hit and I only lose about an ounce or two of neck (stew) meat. 👍
Do you know of any pump action rifles in hunting cartridges such as the 308 win, 270, win, 30/06 etc. I know Remington used to make the 7600 rifle, but I don’t believe they make it anymore. Thanks Ron.
let me make this easy fot 220 swift. E=MVV, or energy equals mass times velocity squared. Increasing speed increases energy geometrically. The Swift penetrates because it is carrying enough energy in its velocity to vaporize the steel on impact.
A particular round that I shoot, penetrates steel very easily, the cartridge is Russian 762x54r I have many rifles, but this particular rifle and this round is what I like shooting if I want to blow through steel
Ron velocity defeats Armour, however my savage 270 shooting federal fusions penetrated 1/2 steel 2 shots out of 4. I don't have a 220 swift. BUT a 22-250 and 300wm, Haven't shot at the steel yet with those. But the FN57 has secret powers too! It has proven its self against ACH's. Speed kills! -Coby Reeves 11B
If found that bullets with thinner copper jackets and more lead penetrate gongs deeper. Monolithic bullets with no lead normally don't penetrate at all.
I just feel like if you had to get ONE rifle to do it all and do it well.... I'd just have to recommend the .270 Winchester. It will take any game in North America without punishing recoil. In addition to its flat shooting, another advantage it has is that the cartridge is sleek and thin, which allows for more capacity. Plus the new Browning X Bolts have 1 in 7.5" twists to stabilize those bullets that are >140gr.
A 270 would cause me to lose my hunting privileges in my state...lol The straight wall cartridges would rein Supreme as only needing one gun... They are legal in every state and have enough power to harvest anything in North America
10:54 Ron mentions we all dream about shtf. The Swiss Family Robinson book from 1812 was a Shtf escapist fantasy book because of all the European wars. The family was marooned on an island with tools, guns, livestock, everything they needed. So, Shtf is nothing new…lol
i have a primarily military weapon background, not much of a hunter to be perfectly honest; i'm mostly interested in cartridge and firearm history overall and started watching your show in order to expand my horizons. in regards to penetrating ballistic armor, to the best of my knowledge velocity is the easiest way to penetrate the stuff. you of course see this with the steel ackley shot with the .220 swift, and while i have my doubts that a standard load would get through more modern heavy armor, i also feel like it'd have a better shot than a .30-06. some more modern examples of specifically armor piercing rounds would be the HK 4.6x30mm and the FN 5.7x28mm, which are both small bore (.18 and .22 caliber respectively, if memory serves) and relatively high velocity. i think the most comparable round that people into the classics might recognize is the .22 spitfire, which is a .30 carbine necked down to .22 (had to look up the specific name, there's a million different classic .22 rounds named things like jetfire/spitfire/some space age soundin' synonym for fast). absolutely rambling at this point, but what i'm getting at is that velocity is paramount for the penetration of armor, with decently close second being bullet construction. if you want a major rabbit hole, look into the russian subsonic armor penetrators of 9x39mm and 12.7x55mm, i swear that the russians know some kinda black magic that can make just about anything penetrate armor. i saw this test of their pocket gun caliber, the 5.45x18mm (which is about on par with a .22 or a .25 in terms of raw energy out of a pistol length barrel, i believe it's roughly a .222 caliber as opposed to the western .224), and the damn thing penetrated soft armor. maybe it's something in the steel they tend to use for the cores of their bullets, i know that we tend towards lead cores (though i imagine some of our more modern copper rounds would do a tad better on armor, but that's purely conjecture and if there's anything you should take with a grain of salt in this comment, it's absolutely that)
The effect caused by the 220 Swift is called "plugging" and only works with certain grades of steel. It mainly works with lead-cored bullets because harder bullets don't transfer energy the same way. The bullet itself fragments on the face of the steel plate but produces enough force to shear off a plug of steel slightly larger than the bullet diameter. Here is some high-speed video of plugging: ua-cam.com/video/QfFoMyMoiX4/v-deo.html
To maximise armour penetration you need speed, sectional density and a projectile that is substantially harder than the armour, without being too brittle. The Russian subsonic AP maximises the second two to compensate for lack of speed, I.e. they fire long, heavy bullets with hardened armour piercing cores. The most extreme examples are the sabot rounds fired by modern tanks, the 'bullet' in those rounds looks like a long, skinny dart (often about 25mm in diameter excluding the fins, but fired from a 120mm barrel) and is made of super dense tungsten or uranium alloy.
As many pointed out, velocity and bullet construction are keys to armor piercing projectiles. The relatively mild WW2 steel armor is probably a bit different from midern heat treated AR500 steel plate also. Logic wiuld suggest that the harder the steel on the surface (and probably to a couple of mm of depth), the better it can make a projectile shatter and be ineffective. Most AP bullets used to be copper or bronze i think. At very high speed, like in the Swift, the copper vecomes molten on impact and burns theough the armor. Some antitank artillery ir missiles do this today, producing a molten copper slug. The HEAT artiller ir tank round uses a dart like tungsten steel penetrator, which ounches through tank armor. The concussion of it can kill or incapacitate the crew, and spall/ fragments add to that, and can ignite the ammo in the tank, or its powder, causing a bad fire. Teflon coatings do not aid penetration one whit, that i know of. They are to protect the steel gun barrel when having a harder than steel projectile (such as tungsten or titanium) fired down it at high speed. In the 80's the media seized on teflon coated ammo, much of which was not designed as AP, and with their usual technical accuracy, decalred all of it to be "cop killers". To this day, some bullets are coated with molybdenum to ease passage down the barrel. For our purposes, it does not seem to be needed. I am not afflicted with magnumitis. The closest thing to a magnum in which i am interested is the 6.5 PRC. Might be fun to compete with. I agree with Ron that shot placement is the key, as long as you have decent power and a proper bullet. I am not going to hunt elk with a 243, even though people do it successfully. 7mm-08 or better for those, and i would use it up through black bear with the righr bullets, if i ever hunt bear. Anyway, great info as always. I have Ackley's book, as well as Hatcher's Notebook. Great books for shooters, along with Cartridges of the World.
Velocity kills steel very well, even a 3/8 AR500 plate is no match. Did that with my 20 Demon (20XC) at 25 yards with a 19.5gr mill turned hp bullet at 5500fps.
Armor penetration is done with speed, or a combination of a heavy+hard slug. Taofledermaus defeated their 30lb lead plate with a 2oz brass slug that was barely supersonic. Might have been subsonic. I think the video is called "knob goblin" or something like that.
It's velocity that's converted into heat upon impact. Basically the velocity was high enough to create the heat needed to turn the copper jacket and steel plate into a molten state.
A faster projectile shears the steal instead of bending and digging it's way through it. As the round gets smaller it's easier for the bullet to shear the metal. Less metal to shear.
280AI - AI cartridges have an inherently long case life. Ron is spot on. An annealer isn't going to help you much. There is SOME benefit, but if you're not shooting a rifle with a custom chamber, you're probably not going to be able to tell the difference.
The location of case failure can switch to neck splitting with an AI cartridge. The length of the case won't tend to grow, but each time a case is reloaded and shot, the case neck is worked. The neck area of a normal chamber needs to be slightly oversize to deal with neck thickness uniformity variations. When you hear of someone using a small-neck chamber and neck-turning their brass, it is mostly to keep the working of the neck of the case to a minimum to extend brass life (rather than for bullet positioning). The SAAMI 280 AI uses the old-style "taper-only" throat as the parent cartridge. This tends not to be as accurate as a "match" chamber with a section of tight freebore to help align the bullet. If someone is going to get a custom chamber, it us typically worth it to get a "match-style" chamber. FWIW, virtually every cartridge accepted by SAAMI in the last 20 years uses this type of chamber, so it is not unusual any more.
@jfess1911 Agreed on all counts. My only point was that there are a number of other things to worry about first before dealing with annealing necks, none of which have a significant impact on hunting accuracy even at a significant distance. The AI cases don't grow much, if at all, so case head separation isn't an issue, but you are correct, the necks will still split over time, but it should take quite a while.
@@nospam3409 You are right. All the fooling around with neck turning is mainly to get 10 or more reloads. I mainly wanted to dispel the myth that AI cases last virtually forever. For some reason, some people confuse "improved case life" with "infinite case life". One of the ideas behind the 280 AI was that a quick re-ream could turn a regular 280 into the AI. Unfortunately, the throat was already a bit sloppy and had to be left alone, even though it is now considered an obsolete design. It is a shame that most people ordering the "improved 280" just get the improved case and not an improved freebore/throat design like that used in the 7mm Rem Mag.
Per NYSRPA vs BRUEN: Since in 1791 there was no history at that time of “rifle or pistol caliber or bullet restrictions on hunting firearms” that means that ALL hunting laws with regards to calibers are therefore unconstitutional!!!
In one of my magnum handguns, I couldn't find ammo, so I started handloading. The books had no reloads for the .45 Magnum, so I started. After working up to where I said that was enough., I called the mfg. They started 'screaming' STOP. Told me that certain things can happened with that load. So I asked for help on a load. Well they sent me a kit for shooting that load. Extra heavy duty slide spring, at first made it pulling the slide back to load. They told me the gun was able to hold together with the load, but the slide stops might take a beating. Took a look at them and they were beat up, but not bad. Please keep up the information, and stay safe.
For high speed armor penetration they use hydrodynamics, look up the Krupp formula for armor penetration. According to it, armor penetration is directly proportional to the velocity and proportional to the square root of the mass of the projectile while being inversely proportional to the square root of the diameter.
The mechanism used by the soft lead bullet of the .220 Swift is "plugging" rather than classic Krupp-style penetration. It only works on certain grades of steel which shear cleanly above a certain stress level. The bullet itself fragments on the surface but the energy transferred to the steel acts like a mechanical punch to eject a plug of steel. Here is some good high-speed video of it:ua-cam.com/video/QfFoMyMoiX4/v-deo.html
Or the 338 win mag. It has more range capability than the 375 H&H. I know this cause I hunt with both rifles. 338 is good to about 800 yards. 375 H&H is only slightly more powerful than 338 win mag and is good for about 300 yards.
Ron i have a question for you . Know one I've talk to remember these rounds coming out . Back in the 1980s I believe it was a new cartridge designed came out . The case wasnt brass or steel , or even plastic . The case was combustible , and was going to come out in all the popular calibers . It was a attempt to keep people from reloading I think . I think the rifle might had been electric . But looked like any other rifle . Do you remember it ?
Remington came out with an "electric" rifle during that time..of course it didn't take off or last very long. Edit: they touted the concept for accuracy .
Remington Etronix primers. No moving parts in the lockwork. Instead of a firing pin, there was an electric contact in the bolt face. Pulling the trigger to the rear completed the circuit and fired the primer. Small battery in a recess in the stock. Under the recoil pad i think. So of course it took special primers available only from Remington, if you wanted to handload. As predicted, the whole idea fell on its face. And Rem sopped making the primers after a year or 2, leaving owners high and dry. Speaking if dry, I wouldn't be surprised if the primers and electrodes were vulnerable to moisture as well. Not good in the backcountry. In the late 70's and early 80's, HK experimented with caseless ammo. The propellant was a solid block, into which the base of the bullet (4.7mm i think) was inserted. Propellant consumed upon firing, so nothing ejected from the rifle. The G11 itself was a futuristic looking rectangle of mostly polymer. The story was that the propellant burn temperature was too high, and was damaging the rifle chambers. They couldn't get a propellant formula with a lower burn temp, so the whole thing died in the prototype stage. interesting idea though. I think the rifle used some form of horizontal mag also, not unlike the later P90 SMG.
3006 cal , has Proven , Time after Time, at Typical , real World Distances, you never did Need a Magnum. But if you Like them be my Guest. Its part of The Gun Enthusiasts fun , to debate, pick on each other. Shoot what you shoot best, and enjoy the Mule Kick , ha.
I have to share my experience with the Leopold 2.5 x 8. I had one for over 30 years. Fabulous scope, that is until my eyes out aged the ability to focus the eye box. When I zoomed the scope to 8 it got blurry. I called Leopold and the told me that if I can’t get it in focus then it’s likely that with my corrective glasses I’d maxed out how much focus was available in the scope. I didn’t have this problem with my Nikon scopes that all have a fast focus system. Leopold only offers “fast focus” on their upper end scopes. Way out of my price range. So now I’m a Nikon guy but they no longer make scopes. Hopefully someone fills their niche.
well ron im 57 and trying to get back into hunting----have several 22LR rifles 3030 Marlin and just bought a---------- ----------NEW REM 700 ADL IN 30 06-------IS THE NEW 700 AS GOOD AS THE OLDER 700 ???---I AM A REFORMED 308 SHOOTER----LOL !!!
Its known as kinetic energy. These fast rounds are actually melting their way through. This is why it looks like spalling because it causes so much heat so fast the heat and gasses cant get out fast enough.If you look at the holes it will sense.
7:05 Ron, my theory is that the I enormous high speed impact turns the tiny bullet into plasma and just burns through. Copper and lead will not defeat 1/2 inch of hardened steel. I mean, AP .308 bullets have hardened steel cores. Such bullets bounce off of thick armor plate. If there had been a 2nd layer of armor, a few inches behind the first, I doubt that it would have had a scratch on it. Ask yourself this: “Has anyone ever recovered such a bullet, or even a fragment of one? Speculation: those bullets no longer exist as solid matter. Not even dust or powder.
Abd environmental corrosion, as we found out the hard way in Vietnam after penny pinching McNamara and his whiz kids deleted it from the M16's specs to save a few dollars.
Nothing Rong with magnum power me 300win mag ammonium. For years on everything now I'm older I got into 308win but is not even the same thing. I should of got the 30-06 spring but I'm glad for the cheeper ammo.
In regards to the 220 swift armor penetration, it is pure velocity. At those speeds the interaction between the hardened steel and the jacketed bullet is more like a soft bullet hitting a ceramic plate. It hits the armor so fast it shatters it's way before the copper jacket has time to deform. Like when water acts like concrete when hit at high speed. The military used the physics behind this to make the 130mm sabot round. A 40mm depleted uranium shard is held inside a 105mm or 130mm sabot. But they also figured out it didn't have to be a super hard dense metal. They made one with a 30mm copper sabot with an explosive behind the copper. The explosive would force the copper core through the armor at 5000fps liquefying the copper. The copper was so fast it would continue out the other side of a tank sucking all occupants through the exit hole. This was told to me by an officer in Air force artillery.
I like at least 2000 FPS of impact velocity for big game with the appropriate caliber. Anything smaller than .277 for deer or 30 caliber for elk and I am going to want even more velocity on impact to make those skinny bullets open up. 308-based cartridges start to approach those limits around 500 yards on deer and 350 yards on elk. Stepping up to the 30-06 case buys you another 100 yards give or take, and the magnums will add maybe another 100-150 on top of that. So I have to agree that for most hunting situations you don't need a magnum. If you hunt where long range shots are possible and your marksmanship is up to the task of shooting beyond 600 yards then a magnum is the logical choice. Another benefit of the magnum is that it gives you a little more punch for quartering shots. Typically you're shooting a heavier bullet with the magnums to get a higher BC and those bullets penetrate better. Not really something that's needed, but it gives you more flexibility when choosing your shot.
Well if you think of it this way. Take a paintball gun and put a marble in it. Shoot a t-shirt on a clothesline. It will go through most of the time. If you get a potato launcher and shoot a baseball at the same shirt it will take the shirt off of the clothes line and keep going. The baseball obviously has much more energy but the ball won’t penetrate the fabric. Energy doesn’t necessarily mean penetration. Speed and efficient energy on a concentrated point penetrates much easier than a large amount of energy in a large area. The reason behind this is there is much more material to hold the shirt together. For the marble to penetrate the shirt it only has to break through a few woven strands of fabric. The baseball would have to break through hundreds of woven strands of fabric which is much more difficult to do. Same goes for bullets on steel. When the 30-06 hits the steel it mushrooms out to a surface area much greater than the smaller 22 caliber. Assuming the 22 caliber is hard enough to hold together it is faster and covers less surface and doesn’t have to cut through as much steel to get through. Speed, lower surface area after expansion, density, and hardness of a projectile all contribute to better penetration. Am I in anyway saying that you need to take a speedy little 220 swift elk hunting to get penetration? NO! An elk isn’t made of steel. The ability to penetrate into an elks vitals is very achievable by the 30-06 and the surface area is greater causing much more damage once it penetrates into the vitals. But yes if you have the correct load in a 220 swift will penetrate the elk better but it will zip right through leaving a smaller wound channel making it much less effective for actually doing a lethal amount of damage to the animal.
Speed beats armor i believe its 5.56 in 55gr out of 20in barrel can beat lvl 3 hard armor at 10 yards but wont beat it out of a 16in barrel at same range.
Wrong question. "Are Magnums Really Fun?" The answer is yes! 300 Weatherby is my favorite but there's a lot to like about 338-378 too. In handguns I'm a fan of 357. I love 44 too but after several cylinders I appreciate the 357 even more. Never had a handloading mishap but I watch my work, cases, and primers. OTOH I have had commercially loaded squibs. I'm looking at you Winchester Silvertip 10mm.
for survival 22lr SINGLE SHOT rifle has far less noving parts , THEREFORE MOORE RELIABLE , also makes the shooter more careful to make the first shot count ammo is light , MOST IMPORTANT ONE SHOT IS ONLY HEARD , BUT THE SECOND SHOT IS THE ONE THAT PINPOINTS YOUR DIRECTION AND LOCATION .
I have noticed all the new calibers and fancy bc bullets that lose speed energy slowly giving you more rifle for greater distances.Then cut the barrels back to 20 in..Cant they make barrrll screw on extensions they have suppressors and brakes that dont effect performance so get a 20 in barrel and have different length extentions with brakes and supressors and none of the performance is effected . A 6.5prc with 20 in barrell isnt any better than a 6.5 creed. with a 24 or 26 in barrell a lot of people dont mind carrying 4 ins. of extra barrell
Ron, I have a few questions that I have been thanking about for a while. If my memory serves me correctly. The original load for the 270 win was pushing a 130 gr bullet somewhere around 3100 fps. But they had downloaded it because so many hunters that were culling deer herds had complained about the meat damage. My questions come as that since they have the magnums out today, is there a company that load 270 win to the original load or is there an loading manual has the original load data. Another question is since the 6.8 mm cartridges have started showing up with different bullet weights and BC. Will this breath a little more variety into the 270 win, giving it the ability it to be more versatile? Maybe for varmint to moose?
Gotta be careful with old load data. I saw a print article several years ago where they tested Jack O'Connor's most used 270 load, and some other eminent writer's load of the time (with new components and powder). I forget the powder, but it was/is a common one. Current manuals list a maximum something like 1.5 grains less than Jack was using back then. Maybe the pressure testing equipment has gotten better, i don't know. They had the load pressure tested at a lab, and it was over pressure alright. I think the diff was too much to be explained away by burning rate variation between lots of powder. It was a testament to the rifles that they took a steady diet of these loads. So, don't rely on old manuals. Use recent manuals, buy a new one every few years, and the Hodgdon Annual. And don't start with max loads. As the safety warnings say, reduce the max loads by the appropriate %, and work your way up, watching for pressure signs. Many cartridges seem to give best accuracy a little below max anyway. And it really isn't worth it just chasing that last 30-50 fps. Or worse yet, going over max because you have a "slow" rifle and think you can in order to get the max velocity in the book. Don't do it! The engineers and professional ballisticians with calibrated pressure measuring equipment know what they are doing when they update the manuals.
Why would anyone think it should be a “.556”? It is quite obviously stated that this is the METRIC size designation as it literally says Millimeters at the end. I don’t really know any way that it could be made any more obvious and my goodness those babies would be a heck of a lot bigger than they currently are if they were indeed “.556”!😂
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Ron, I can tell you exactly why a 48 grain from a 220 Swift can penetrate steel but a 30-06 and a 270 cannot. The reason is, because the 48 grain is technically not actually penetrating the steel at all, let me explain. As soon as the 48 grain projectile hits the steel, it instantly disintegrates into a million pieces and no longer exists, however, the impact of the bullet at such an extremely high velocity causes the steel to vibrate so fast that a piece of the steel actually gets pushed out, hence the illusion that the bullet “penetrated” the steel, when it in fact did not. This phenomenon is known as “plugging”.
On a lesser scale I experienced something similar in 222 Rem with Varmint bullets. Whilst the bullets would fragment very easily they would make a hole in steel at least as thick as my 308 would do with a Nosler 150 BTSP.
It's called "spalling" and the armor fragments are called "spall". They bounce around and can injure or kill the occupants. Back in WW1 the tanks' armor was riveted so even if the projectile did not penetrate, the rivets would come loose and bounce around inside the tank.
@@PassivePortfolios Spalling and plugging are different. With plugging, a hole is punched completely through the the metal and a plug of metal slightly larger diameter of the bullet is punched out. This only works with certain grades of steel. Spalling, on the other hand, can work on thicker plates and occurs when the pressure waves break a "scab" of metal off from the interior surface. The scab is typically much larger diameter than the projectile.
Here is a video showing plugging (and lots of other cool impacts): ua-cam.com/video/QfFoMyMoiX4/v-deo.html
There was a Polish rifle designed to do such a thing - the Wz. 35 anti-tank rifle.
@@The1stLumiens I'm glad you mentioned this. I intended to refer to it but couldn't recall the name!
Only have room for one more rifle in the safe? Time to get another safe! 😉
I love how your so real about the true performance of all cartridges! There are so many that do the job !! Thank you
I dead centered an Aspen sapling when I was shooting at a cow elk at 20 yards with a 338 Win Mag and totally missed her. Got her with follow up shots though.
I love your vlogs Ron. You're a great example of manliness heavily mixed with that of a gentleman. You exhibit the knowledge of my gunsmith Dad with my Grandpap's mannerisms. So watching & listening is akin to family.
Thank You Ron.
Go ahead, get that magnum! ;)
If you see “classic pressure signs,” you exceeded maximum pressure long before the “classic signs” manifested themselves.
Right! On a Hornady podcast, they mentioned that some 6.5-284 loads used in competition were 12,000psi higher than the SAAMI spec, yet showed no "classic pressure signs".
With a 5.6 Grendel or 6mm ARC in an AR15, the bolt will be damaged at pressure below those where pressure signs are seen (higher pressures can be run in stronger bolt-actions, though).
@@jfess191112000 over SAAMI doesn’t necessarily mean the round is over pressure, a sturdier action with good heads allows you some wiggle room. Does that mean you should load it all the way up, well that depends on if you’ve done enough research to work out if your gun can handle it, for the majority or guts the answer is no. Those signs though are one of those things you look at and step back a bit and test enough to make sure the signs don’t come back, if you’re trying to push rounds that close I’d assume you should just step up to a whole new cartridge considering the plethora available, but if you do your research and can accept the risk do your thing, but always remember that’s why you never fire someone else’s reloads, especially not in a different rifle.
@@CowboyHunterPodcast You are right, but very few people have the knowledge to determine if their action can handle stresses well beyond that for which it had been tested. I have already mentioned the Grendel and ARC which were limited by the strength of the AR15 bolt. Bolt breakage is common for those who load to "pressure signs" with those cartridges.
Most AR-style rifles designed around the 308 have bolts specifically designed for that cartridge with corresponding strength margins. Indeed, bolts are considered a consumable item with many AR's and commonly break beyond certain round counts
A pertinent example is the 284 Win, a cartridge with a rebated rim. It was designed to operate in Winchester model 100 and 88, rifles which had been designed around the 308 (and the forces it generated). Although the 284 and 308 have the same rim diameter, the case diameter of the 284 is larger (.50" vs .47"). Since the max bolt backforce is proportional to case diameter, the SAAMI pressure for the 284 was limited to 56,000 psi. This was to keep bolt forces the same as those of the 308. That, of course, led to cases being designed for that max pressure instead of a higher one. This, in turn, forced Norma to limit the max pressure of its 6.5-284 since it was based on the same case and was commonly made from reformed 284 brass.
FWIW, It would be interesting to look at a sectioned 6.5 WBY RPM case which is a newly designed, elongated version of the 284 case but has a 65,000psi max pressure. I would like to see if they case walls are thicker near the base.
Hey Mr. Ron! You mentioned Burris scopes being rugged. I purchased an E2 Fullfield on a bargain shop for my Howa 7.62×39. On the first hunt with it, my tree stands tow rope's knot came loose and it fell 15'. I was sick over it. When I took it to the range to redo my zero, it had held perfectly. Hope this helps and keep it up!
Thank you for reading my comment. I too love the Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x36mm, mine was mounted on a T/C muzzleloader and it worked fantastic. It was plenty bright and clear for early mornings and dusk and great eye relief. Leupold makes a very high quality scope.
If a hunter is looking for lightweight scope consider fixed power scopes, Leupold makes some great fixed power scopes that are very bright. I have a older Nikon fixed 4X, made in Japan that I will be mounting on 'woods rifle' for hunting in thick cover such as in New England where most shots in the woods are well under 100 yards.
Leupold the best scope brand for hunting! Has been for years! I have been using there scopes for 60 some years and No regrets ever using one!
@@edwardabrams4972 I agree. I have owned several Leupold Scopes from long range to hunting and they have all been perfect, they just work flawlessly and are rugged.
@@chrisdaniel1339 . . . . .
Agreed about the .22's question. I have a 10/22 and love it but I'd love to pick up one of the bolt actions like we shot in Boy Scouts. The bolt action really taught you to take each shot as perfectly as possible.
G'day from Aus. , always a pleasure to listen to Ron, even though I live in an area pop. of 400 odd I'd like to get out into the real sticks, just had my birthday, would like to take my pup's out, winter season, the day's are short & the breeze is fresh, Vik
🌅🍻👍😁🐶
Speed defeats armor. The 220 Swift fires a round at close to or over 4000 fps. I have done this with my .243 many times using a 60 gr and 70 gr hand load upwards of 3800 fps. A 3/8" armor plate won't stop the light but high-speed rounds.
I’m just a Mississippi boy . I’ve killed hundreds of deer over the years. 270 win has been my favorite. I bought a 6.8 western last year and a 6.5 creedmoor. Killed a 170 pound 6 point and 6.5 I killed a 200 pound 8 pointer. Love them both just because I haven’t bought a new rifle in over 30 years. Enjoyed the info mr Ron ! Thank you! Love your show!
Sounds like you could add a magnum…
6.8 western is a magnum
Where in MS?
Down here in the south west and grew up hunting with a 270. Since then I've gone to a 223 and 6.8spc. Got the wife a .25-06 and she keeps the freezer full of deer.
I've tried the 300WM and love it. It's heavy but shoots so good out to 1400 yards with 210gr Bergers.
nice new purchases to balance against decades owned 270 nice, the western is so interesting
6:50 Because as you approach vastly higher speeds you also approach more fluidity and less solidarity in solids, aka they behave more like plastics or liquids and thus move out of the way as much.
It's hard to beat the good ol fashion 270 Winchester. I used to have a plain ol Savage 110 that came with a 3×9 scope from the factory as I'm sure you can remember, and I was able to shoot off a turkeys head at 125 yards. That's back before we even had a turkey season, so it was legal and I was surprised that with the scope set 1" high at a 100 yards I put a 130 gr CoreLokt right above the wattles and clipped his head right off. I figured that it was just luck but that inexpensive little rifle and scope was surprisingly accurate every shot. I really need to get a rifle because I've only got two shotguns and two pistols at the moment. But I'm good with all four and at the short ranges we shoot here in the NC mountains, a 12 gauge slug is more than enough for the game we have here but I want to save up enough for a good, reasonably priced rifle. I just can't decide on the caliber. The 30-06 is the most versatile, I love the 270 ,a 30-30 is the best handling and best feeling rifle, and I'm a big fan of the 7mm-08. I guess I'll just have to wait until I save enough up and then get whichever one is in stock and the right price at my local gun store. It's a really hard decision for a cartridge nerd like me. 😂
My 7mm-08 has never let me down. I have a messed up back and the recoil is manageable and I can still reach out over 200 yards with it. My first deer with it was 220 yards and dropped in it's tracks. I love that caliber but sometimes it's expensive to get as I only really use the 139g bullets.
Get the 7mm-08. Very versatile, especially if you handload. Light recoil, and easily effective to 300+ yards. If you like lever actions, the BLR is chambered in it, and seems to be capable of MOA or better (barrel is free floated in the more recent models). If you want something for less cost, the Mossberg Patriot and Ruger American have good reps for price point rifles. I just saw Patriots for $440 on SW site. Synthetic, Cerakote, fluted bolt and barrel, and even threaded. I am a carteidge nerd myself. Planning to get a 7mm-08 myself. Most likely a Tikka T3x Lite stainless (currently on sale $780 on their site, normally about $870), or an upper level Wby Vanguard (synthetic and cerakoted, similar price). If those are pricey , you can also get a non-Axis Savage for less than $600 i think, with Accu Trigger, and various stocks. Plus there is Browning, Bergara, etc. Saw the Franchi Momentum on sale for 650 also. Lots of good choices. FWIW, every comment or review i have ever seen on the Tikkas, on here, the SW site, or other places, has been top notch. The Vanguard is right behind them. Last year, SW had the entry level Vanguards in various chamberings on sale for 500 a little before hunting season. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a sale again soon. Good luck with your search
Deflection: I hunt white tail
I agree I have several .22 lr rifles I learned on a single shot bolt action having one shot really helped to learn how to shoot accurately and you can shoot.22 long long rifle and shorts in a bolt action but love my old Winchester semiautomatic rifles and my rosi copy of a 1909 pump in .22 win mag
0:25
About 60 years ago, the county built a bridge across a small creek near me.
Within a week, one of my older brothers had shot a hole through one of the steel beams.
With his .22-250.
Drilled right through 3/8 inch of steel. Clean as a whistle.
Ron, you might wish to express upon non hunters that they should purchase a hunting fishing license even if they don’t participate in the hunting, fishing. They sure do like to use the facilities we hunting, fishing populations provide. Boat ramps, hiking trails, etc. Thank you .👍👍👍🇺🇸🙏🏽✌🏻😎
At 23:39 you mention bullet deflection when hitting grass and twigs. A friend of mine (for over 30 years) did.He is a good shot and took his first 50 Deer with 51 cartridges, but he had a clean miss from about 25 yds! Shooting from a High Seat, with his Tikka 243, he completely missed a static Roe Deer at stone throwing range. A week later he visited the same High Seat and noticed a twig that had been broken off, he lined up on where he had shot at the deer and there was the 1/16 inch twig! That tiny twig was enough to cause a clear miss at a few yards. The moral is Ensure your shot is clear before you pull the trigger!
That is true, high velocity spritzer bullets destabilize very ez if they contact any obstacles like grass, leaves, twigs ect. However heavy slower moving bullets deflect much less, eg 45-70, 444 Marlin, 35 rem, and I seen a video with 30-06 220gr rn and it went through brush very well.
I@@ryanehlis426
20:55 is this the same Phil Shoemaker thats in Buffalo Bores website on the review of the 9mm Outdoorsman +P ammo!!!!??
That just shows life is all one grand simulation
Thanks Ron for all your knowledge. About 9 years ago I shot my first whitetail deer with my fathers Model 721 .270win. Dad gave me his rifle before he passed away. That day I determined that amongst all my other rifles, they would remain in my gun safe from hunting until after I’d taken my first deer with dad’s rifle. Couple years later, it was accomplished. A nice 8pointer was just about to bound into a cedar grove as I hollered and he slammed on the brakes. It was quartering away from about 85 yards away and all I could see was it’s left side and rear as it’s front end was starting into the cedars. The shot hit in its left side and plowed out through the right shoulder area. What amazed me was the damage a 130gr Remington Core-Lock bullet can do. I think sometimes us hunters under estimate the power and damage a rifle bullet can do, on thin skin game like a deer. Thanks for all you do for us and sharing your knowledge and skills.
Shhh! Ron! No one must know about the secret cave! Especially my wife…
I know, right? Ron! STFU about the secret cave!
Ron
Your last question of today regarding the 270 or 6.8, I think that if one was to go after bigger game then I think the 6.8 with the heavier bullets would be a wiser choice.
Good information.
I have encountered several large whitetail bucks sporting armor plate lately…
I like my golden 39 M it is extremely accurate and very reliable.
Him: Do I need a magnum?
Me: Are you American?
Him: Yes
Me: Then yes
😂😂😂
Having several rifles in 6.8 Western here is my take.
For elk, the round is on point. I killed a bull at 400 yards and it performed exactly how I expected.
For whitetail, it’s too much gun. I killed 5 does between 50 and 300 yards and it was rough on all of them. I rarely regret taking a gun on a hunt and that time I wished I had taken a smaller gun.
I ran 175gr Sierras out of it.
If your colour blind even just red/ green stay away from the leupold. I bought one for my 270 was good middle of the day. But any dull light or under spotlight it was too unclear to see through properly due to my colour-blindness. Was like a yellow haze and hard to get on target even on lowest power.
Hang towards a more expensive clearer optic khales or swarvozki if you have ever issues
The best formula to defeat armor, which has been shown a few times by Kentucky Ballistics, is a 400 grain, .416 caliber, solid bullet, going at, at least 2400 fps.
Oh you kids and your bright ideas.
Penetration: think about a hammer and a nail. Hit the wood with the hammer, it will make a shallow dent. Hit the nail with the hammer with the same force, the nail will penetrate the wood. The difference is the pounds per square inch on the wood. Add the very high speed of the bullet and total energy in the small impact point, the steel will yield.
In response to the penetration from the 220 Swift, I wonder if it had something to do with the sectional density of the bullet as well as the velocity? The higher the sectional density of any bullet, the better the penetration. It’s just a guess. Thanks for sharing.
It has more to do with the soft lead core and high velocity. This "plugging" effect only occurs with certain grade steels. The bullet fragments, but transfers enough energy to the plate to literally punch out a slug of steel. Here is some high-speed film of plugging: ua-cam.com/video/QfFoMyMoiX4/v-deo.html
Yes in CA, we’re limited to copper bullets, and what do copper bullets need to be efficient? Velocity. What cartridges give high velocity? Magnums.
"As long as we re thinking all the time"
Life lesson there!!!! Like my Grandfather... always saying the simplest things but meaning so much in so many places!!
Thanks for the always great content Ron!!!
Velocity is a squared function combined with the fact the .22 has less frontal area to deliver the energy created by velocity squared X the mass.
220 swift answer. Speed and a small barrow bullet.
Most bullet proof vests will not stop a 223 but will stop a 308.
Frontal mass can be stopped by the material but a 220 or 223 has very low frontal mass and can penetrate the between the weaves.
That why serious people use the vest and add plates.
As Ron said; with regards to the magnum calibers, it is true these will offer an extended MPBR of about 30 to 50 yards when compared to a standard caliber, which may be compensated with the aid of a range finder. However, a Magnum caliber will also leave the barrel at a higher speed and buck a cross wind more efficiently. Magnums may also allow the use of a heavier bullet with a higher BC with a similar muzzle velocity of a lighter bullet shot from a standard caliber, thus reducing wind deflecton and giving the hunter a flatter trajectory downrange, which reduces the margin of error while taking a longer shot.
They don't "buck" cross winds better. That's just a calculation of BC by TOF.
With identical bullets, a magnum just has a shorter time the wind acts on it.
After hunting black bear more than 50 yrs I would say as much gun as you can shoot accurite with and good luck.
It really depends on if you care about a trophy or just filling the freezer, for the former it can be necessary to guarantee vital hits from non optimal angles, for filling the freezer go for the head and get better meat out of it
Totally agree!!!!!!!
That assumes game is plentiful in the scenario, because if it’s not your not taking the chance at missing game to save a pound of meat.
Yep! While I’m not a head shooter (too old and shaky) I have always been a neck shooter, and it’s likewise an instant stop. Using heavy for caliber bullets I shoot just forward of where the neck meets the body in the center of the neck and I’ve never had a deer take a step after being hit and I only lose about an ounce or two of neck (stew) meat. 👍
Do you know of any pump action rifles in hunting cartridges such as the 308 win, 270, win, 30/06 etc. I know Remington used to make the 7600 rifle, but I don’t believe they make it anymore. Thanks Ron.
I more thing I hunt mostly with a 270 it gets the job done !!
let me make this easy fot 220 swift. E=MVV, or energy equals mass times velocity squared. Increasing speed increases energy geometrically. The Swift penetrates because it is carrying enough energy in its velocity to vaporize the steel on impact.
A particular round that I shoot, penetrates steel very easily, the cartridge is Russian 762x54r
I have many rifles, but this particular rifle and this round is what I like shooting if I want to blow through steel
Shepherd scopes are great quality,very nice reticle selection as well
Ron velocity defeats Armour, however my savage 270 shooting federal fusions penetrated 1/2 steel 2 shots out of 4. I don't have a 220 swift. BUT a 22-250 and 300wm, Haven't shot at the steel yet with those. But the FN57 has secret powers too! It has proven its self against ACH's. Speed kills! -Coby Reeves 11B
If found that bullets with thinner copper jackets and more lead penetrate gongs deeper. Monolithic bullets with no lead normally don't penetrate at all.
I just feel like if you had to get ONE rifle to do it all and do it well.... I'd just have to recommend the .270 Winchester. It will take any game in North America without punishing recoil. In addition to its flat shooting, another advantage it has is that the cartridge is sleek and thin, which allows for more capacity.
Plus the new Browning X Bolts have 1 in 7.5" twists to stabilize those bullets that are >140gr.
Would get a fast twist rebarrel for 270 win in order to use 170 grain high bc new bullets or just use 30 06 with high bc berger or a frame
A 270 would cause me to lose my hunting privileges in my state...lol
The straight wall cartridges would rein Supreme as only needing one gun... They are legal in every state and have enough power to harvest anything in North America
10:54 Ron mentions we all dream about shtf. The Swiss Family Robinson book from 1812 was a Shtf escapist fantasy book because of all the European wars. The family was marooned on an island with tools, guns, livestock, everything they needed. So, Shtf is nothing new…lol
i have a primarily military weapon background, not much of a hunter to be perfectly honest; i'm mostly interested in cartridge and firearm history overall and started watching your show in order to expand my horizons. in regards to penetrating ballistic armor, to the best of my knowledge velocity is the easiest way to penetrate the stuff. you of course see this with the steel ackley shot with the .220 swift, and while i have my doubts that a standard load would get through more modern heavy armor, i also feel like it'd have a better shot than a .30-06. some more modern examples of specifically armor piercing rounds would be the HK 4.6x30mm and the FN 5.7x28mm, which are both small bore (.18 and .22 caliber respectively, if memory serves) and relatively high velocity. i think the most comparable round that people into the classics might recognize is the .22 spitfire, which is a .30 carbine necked down to .22 (had to look up the specific name, there's a million different classic .22 rounds named things like jetfire/spitfire/some space age soundin' synonym for fast). absolutely rambling at this point, but what i'm getting at is that velocity is paramount for the penetration of armor, with decently close second being bullet construction. if you want a major rabbit hole, look into the russian subsonic armor penetrators of 9x39mm and 12.7x55mm, i swear that the russians know some kinda black magic that can make just about anything penetrate armor. i saw this test of their pocket gun caliber, the 5.45x18mm (which is about on par with a .22 or a .25 in terms of raw energy out of a pistol length barrel, i believe it's roughly a .222 caliber as opposed to the western .224), and the damn thing penetrated soft armor. maybe it's something in the steel they tend to use for the cores of their bullets, i know that we tend towards lead cores (though i imagine some of our more modern copper rounds would do a tad better on armor, but that's purely conjecture and if there's anything you should take with a grain of salt in this comment, it's absolutely that)
The effect caused by the 220 Swift is called "plugging" and only works with certain grades of steel. It mainly works with lead-cored bullets because harder bullets don't transfer energy the same way. The bullet itself fragments on the face of the steel plate but produces enough force to shear off a plug of steel slightly larger than the bullet diameter. Here is some high-speed video of plugging: ua-cam.com/video/QfFoMyMoiX4/v-deo.html
To maximise armour penetration you need speed, sectional density and a projectile that is substantially harder than the armour, without being too brittle. The Russian subsonic AP maximises the second two to compensate for lack of speed, I.e. they fire long, heavy bullets with hardened armour piercing cores.
The most extreme examples are the sabot rounds fired by modern tanks, the 'bullet' in those rounds looks like a long, skinny dart (often about 25mm in diameter excluding the fins, but fired from a 120mm barrel) and is made of super dense tungsten or uranium alloy.
Magnums needed? In my hunting situations yes.
If your primer is gone after a shot you might be over pressure.
22 HP is a lot of fun - awhile ago bought a brno combo 12ga / 22hp
As many pointed out, velocity and bullet construction are keys to armor piercing projectiles. The relatively mild WW2 steel armor is probably a bit different from midern heat treated AR500 steel plate also. Logic wiuld suggest that the harder the steel on the surface (and probably to a couple of mm of depth), the better it can make a projectile shatter and be ineffective. Most AP bullets used to be copper or bronze i think. At very high speed, like in the Swift, the copper vecomes molten on impact and burns theough the armor. Some antitank artillery ir missiles do this today, producing a molten copper slug. The HEAT artiller ir tank round uses a dart like tungsten steel penetrator, which ounches through tank armor. The concussion of it can kill or incapacitate the crew, and spall/ fragments add to that, and can ignite the ammo in the tank, or its powder, causing a bad fire. Teflon coatings do not aid penetration one whit, that i know of. They are to protect the steel gun barrel when having a harder than steel projectile (such as tungsten or titanium) fired down it at high speed. In the 80's the media seized on teflon coated ammo, much of which was not designed as AP, and with their usual technical accuracy, decalred all of it to be "cop killers". To this day, some bullets are coated with molybdenum to ease passage down the barrel. For our purposes, it does not seem to be needed.
I am not afflicted with magnumitis. The closest thing to a magnum in which i am interested is the 6.5 PRC. Might be fun to compete with. I agree with Ron that shot placement is the key, as long as you have decent power and a proper bullet. I am not going to hunt elk with a 243, even though people do it successfully. 7mm-08 or better for those, and i would use it up through black bear with the righr bullets, if i ever hunt bear. Anyway, great info as always. I have Ackley's book, as well as Hatcher's Notebook. Great books for shooters, along with Cartridges of the World.
Velocity kills steel very well, even a 3/8 AR500 plate is no match. Did that with my 20 Demon (20XC) at 25 yards with a 19.5gr mill turned hp bullet at 5500fps.
Armor penetration is done with speed, or a combination of a heavy+hard slug.
Taofledermaus defeated their 30lb lead plate with a 2oz brass slug that was barely supersonic. Might have been subsonic. I think the video is called "knob goblin" or something like that.
Lead is far easier to penetrate than steel. It’s speed that defeats armor, especially in rounds that you can actually shoulder.
I understand what you're saying. It's the conventional wisdom. However, it proved a ballistic concept that we don't often see.
220 swift 48 grain 4111 feet a second
It's velocity that's converted into heat upon impact. Basically the velocity was high enough to create the heat needed to turn the copper jacket and steel plate into a molten state.
What kind of armor plate? 30-06 AP will penetrate up to level 3 armor plates for the body. You need level 4 plates to stop it.
A faster projectile shears the steal instead of bending and digging it's way through it. As the round gets smaller it's easier for the bullet to shear the metal. Less metal to shear.
280AI - AI cartridges have an inherently long case life. Ron is spot on. An annealer isn't going to help you much. There is SOME benefit, but if you're not shooting a rifle with a custom chamber, you're probably not going to be able to tell the difference.
The location of case failure can switch to neck splitting with an AI cartridge. The length of the case won't tend to grow, but each time a case is reloaded and shot, the case neck is worked. The neck area of a normal chamber needs to be slightly oversize to deal with neck thickness uniformity variations. When you hear of someone using a small-neck chamber and neck-turning their brass, it is mostly to keep the working of the neck of the case to a minimum to extend brass life (rather than for bullet positioning).
The SAAMI 280 AI uses the old-style "taper-only" throat as the parent cartridge. This tends not to be as accurate as a "match" chamber with a section of tight freebore to help align the bullet. If someone is going to get a custom chamber, it us typically worth it to get a "match-style" chamber. FWIW, virtually every cartridge accepted by SAAMI in the last 20 years uses this type of chamber, so it is not unusual any more.
@jfess1911 Agreed on all counts. My only point was that there are a number of other things to worry about first before dealing with annealing necks, none of which have a significant impact on hunting accuracy even at a significant distance. The AI cases don't grow much, if at all, so case head separation isn't an issue, but you are correct, the necks will still split over time, but it should take quite a while.
@@nospam3409 You are right. All the fooling around with neck turning is mainly to get 10 or more reloads. I mainly wanted to dispel the myth that AI cases last virtually forever. For some reason, some people confuse "improved case life" with "infinite case life".
One of the ideas behind the 280 AI was that a quick re-ream could turn a regular 280 into the AI. Unfortunately, the throat was already a bit sloppy and had to be left alone, even though it is now considered an obsolete design. It is a shame that most people ordering the "improved 280" just get the improved case and not an improved freebore/throat design like that used in the 7mm Rem Mag.
Per NYSRPA vs BRUEN: Since in 1791 there was no history at that time of “rifle or pistol caliber or bullet restrictions on hunting firearms” that means that ALL hunting laws with regards to calibers are therefore unconstitutional!!!
From 1791-1860 but still.
Remember, in the 1960's, the US Air Force adopted the .22cal Armalite (AR) 7 as their official "survival rifle".
In one of my magnum handguns, I couldn't find ammo, so I started handloading. The books had no reloads for the .45 Magnum, so I started. After working up to where I said that was enough., I called the mfg. They started 'screaming' STOP. Told me that certain things can happened with that load. So I asked for help on a load. Well they sent me a kit for shooting that load. Extra heavy duty slide spring, at first made it pulling the slide back to load. They told me the gun was able to hold together with the load, but the slide stops might take a beating. Took a look at them and they were beat up, but not bad. Please keep up the information, and stay safe.
Sounds like 45 Super
For high speed armor penetration they use hydrodynamics, look up the Krupp formula for armor penetration. According to it, armor penetration is directly proportional to the velocity and proportional to the square root of the mass of the projectile while being inversely proportional to the square root of the diameter.
The mechanism used by the soft lead bullet of the .220 Swift is "plugging" rather than classic Krupp-style penetration. It only works on certain grades of steel which shear cleanly above a certain stress level. The bullet itself fragments on the surface but the energy transferred to the steel acts like a mechanical punch to eject a plug of steel. Here is some good high-speed video of it:ua-cam.com/video/QfFoMyMoiX4/v-deo.html
I am going with the 220 swift!
Tiny point of impact at extremely high velocity think shape charge
When it comes to hard armor speed kills. It’s velocity that defeats hard (steel) armor not total energy.
The 45/70 is the Alaskan guide gun for bear.
Most people prefer a 375 H&H or 375 Ruger. Lot more power.
Or the 338 win mag. It has more range capability than the 375 H&H. I know this cause I hunt with both rifles. 338 is good to about 800 yards. 375 H&H is only slightly more powerful than 338 win mag and is good for about 300 yards.
Ron i have a question for you . Know one I've talk to remember these rounds coming out . Back in the 1980s I believe it was a new cartridge designed came out . The case wasnt brass or steel , or even plastic . The case was combustible , and was going to come out in all the popular calibers . It was a attempt to keep people from reloading I think . I think the rifle might had been electric . But looked like any other rifle . Do you remember it ?
Remington came out with an "electric" rifle during that time..of course it didn't take off or last very long. Edit: they touted the concept for accuracy .
Remington Etronix primers. No moving parts in the lockwork. Instead of a firing pin, there was an electric contact in the bolt face. Pulling the trigger to the rear completed the circuit and fired the primer. Small battery in a recess in the stock. Under the recoil pad i think. So of course it took special primers available only from Remington, if you wanted to handload. As predicted, the whole idea fell on its face. And Rem sopped making the primers after a year or 2, leaving owners high and dry. Speaking if dry, I wouldn't be surprised if the primers and electrodes were vulnerable to moisture as well. Not good in the backcountry.
In the late 70's and early 80's, HK experimented with caseless ammo. The propellant was a solid block, into which the base of the bullet (4.7mm i think) was inserted. Propellant consumed upon firing, so nothing ejected from the rifle. The G11 itself was a futuristic looking rectangle of mostly polymer. The story was that the propellant burn temperature was too high, and was damaging the rifle chambers. They couldn't get a propellant formula with a lower burn temp, so the whole thing died in the prototype stage. interesting idea though. I think the rifle used some form of horizontal mag also, not unlike the later P90 SMG.
Very high velocity is the reason for the hole in the steel plate.
Speed will always be the most influential factor to defeating armor
3006 cal , has Proven , Time after Time, at Typical , real World Distances, you never did Need a Magnum. But if you Like them be my Guest. Its part of The Gun Enthusiasts fun , to debate, pick on each other. Shoot what you shoot best, and enjoy the Mule Kick , ha.
I have to share my experience with the Leopold 2.5 x 8. I had one for over 30 years. Fabulous scope, that is until my eyes out aged the ability to focus the eye box. When I zoomed the scope to 8 it got blurry. I called Leopold and the told me that if I can’t get it in focus then it’s likely that with my corrective glasses I’d maxed out how much focus was available in the scope. I didn’t have this problem with my Nikon scopes that all have a fast focus system. Leopold only offers “fast focus” on their upper end scopes. Way out of my price range. So now I’m a Nikon guy but they no longer make scopes. Hopefully someone fills their niche.
It simply comes down to the adage speed defeats armor
well ron im 57 and trying to get back into hunting----have several 22LR rifles 3030 Marlin and just bought a----------
----------NEW REM 700 ADL IN 30 06-------IS THE NEW 700 AS GOOD AS THE OLDER 700 ???---I AM A REFORMED 308 SHOOTER----LOL !!!
Its known as kinetic energy. These fast rounds are actually melting their way through. This is why it looks like spalling because it causes so much heat so fast the heat and gasses cant get out fast enough.If you look at the holes it will sense.
I know 45gr 243 hand loads will go through .375 AR500 steel I think it's the velocity
7:05
Ron, my theory is that the I enormous high speed impact turns the tiny bullet into plasma and just burns through.
Copper and lead will not defeat 1/2 inch of hardened steel.
I mean, AP .308 bullets have hardened steel cores. Such bullets bounce off of thick armor plate.
If there had been a 2nd layer of armor, a few inches behind the first, I doubt that it would have had a scratch on it.
Ask yourself this: “Has anyone ever recovered such a bullet, or even a fragment of one?
Speculation: those bullets no longer exist as solid matter. Not even dust or powder.
Hello Mr. Spoomer. Is it true that chrome lined barrel rifling will last longer with high speed ammunition?
Chrome liming protects against throat erosion. That's why service rifle barrels are chrome lined.
Abd environmental corrosion, as we found out the hard way in Vietnam after penny pinching McNamara and his whiz kids deleted it from the M16's specs to save a few dollars.
It’s speed that beats armor
In magnums I find that lighter calibers are more enjoyable due to recoil. 257 weatherby 6.5 prc ect.
The 6.8 bullets are way more expensive than the. 270 win ammo.
Nothing Rong with magnum power me 300win mag ammonium. For years on everything now I'm older I got into 308win but is not even the same thing. I should of got the 30-06 spring but I'm glad for the cheeper ammo.
In regards to the 220 swift armor penetration, it is pure velocity. At those speeds the interaction between the hardened steel and the jacketed bullet is more like a soft bullet hitting a ceramic plate. It hits the armor so fast it shatters it's way before the copper jacket has time to deform. Like when water acts like concrete when hit at high speed. The military used the physics behind this to make the 130mm sabot round. A 40mm depleted uranium shard is held inside a 105mm or 130mm sabot. But they also figured out it didn't have to be a super hard dense metal. They made one with a 30mm copper sabot with an explosive behind the copper. The explosive would force the copper core through the armor at 5000fps liquefying the copper. The copper was so fast it would continue out the other side of a tank sucking all occupants through the exit hole. This was told to me by an officer in Air force artillery.
I like at least 2000 FPS of impact velocity for big game with the appropriate caliber. Anything smaller than .277 for deer or 30 caliber for elk and I am going to want even more velocity on impact to make those skinny bullets open up. 308-based cartridges start to approach those limits around 500 yards on deer and 350 yards on elk. Stepping up to the 30-06 case buys you another 100 yards give or take, and the magnums will add maybe another 100-150 on top of that. So I have to agree that for most hunting situations you don't need a magnum. If you hunt where long range shots are possible and your marksmanship is up to the task of shooting beyond 600 yards then a magnum is the logical choice. Another benefit of the magnum is that it gives you a little more punch for quartering shots. Typically you're shooting a heavier bullet with the magnums to get a higher BC and those bullets penetrate better. Not really something that's needed, but it gives you more flexibility when choosing your shot.
Well if you think of it this way. Take a paintball gun and put a marble in it. Shoot a t-shirt on a clothesline. It will go through most of the time. If you get a potato launcher and shoot a baseball at the same shirt it will take the shirt off of the clothes line and keep going. The baseball obviously has much more energy but the ball won’t penetrate the fabric. Energy doesn’t necessarily mean penetration. Speed and efficient energy on a concentrated point penetrates much easier than a large amount of energy in a large area. The reason behind this is there is much more material to hold the shirt together. For the marble to penetrate the shirt it only has to break through a few woven strands of fabric. The baseball would have to break through hundreds of woven strands of fabric which is much more difficult to do. Same goes for bullets on steel. When the 30-06 hits the steel it mushrooms out to a surface area much greater than the smaller 22 caliber. Assuming the 22 caliber is hard enough to hold together it is faster and covers less surface and doesn’t have to cut through as much steel to get through. Speed, lower surface area after expansion, density, and hardness of a projectile all contribute to better penetration. Am I in anyway saying that you need to take a speedy little 220 swift elk hunting to get penetration? NO! An elk isn’t made of steel. The ability to penetrate into an elks vitals is very achievable by the 30-06 and the surface area is greater causing much more damage once it penetrates into the vitals. But yes if you have the correct load in a 220 swift will penetrate the elk better but it will zip right through leaving a smaller wound channel making it much less effective for actually doing a lethal amount of damage to the animal.
Speed kills!
Speed beats armor i believe its 5.56 in 55gr out of 20in barrel can beat lvl 3 hard armor at 10 yards but wont beat it out of a 16in barrel at same range.
Elmer Keith said the Weatherby 378 magnum is the finest elk rifle he had ever used but only with the 300gr bullet.
Wrong question. "Are Magnums Really Fun?" The answer is yes! 300 Weatherby is my favorite but there's a lot to like about 338-378 too. In handguns I'm a fan of 357. I love 44 too but after several cylinders I appreciate the 357 even more. Never had a handloading mishap but I watch my work, cases, and primers. OTOH I have had commercially loaded squibs. I'm looking at you Winchester Silvertip 10mm.
for survival 22lr SINGLE SHOT rifle has far less noving parts , THEREFORE MOORE RELIABLE , also makes the shooter more careful to make the first shot count ammo is light , MOST IMPORTANT ONE SHOT IS ONLY HEARD , BUT THE SECOND SHOT IS THE ONE THAT PINPOINTS YOUR DIRECTION AND LOCATION .
357 44 41 454 the rest uh! A lot said for the 300 win mag around the world
I have noticed all the new calibers and fancy bc bullets that lose speed energy slowly giving you more rifle for greater distances.Then cut the barrels back to 20 in..Cant they make barrrll screw on extensions they have suppressors and brakes that dont effect performance so get a 20 in barrel and have different length extentions with brakes and supressors and none of the performance is effected . A 6.5prc with 20 in barrell isnt any better than a 6.5 creed. with a 24 or 26 in barrell a lot of people dont mind carrying 4 ins. of extra barrell
Yes
Can you talk about tungsten ap ammo
Speed, is the reason for the 220 swift penetrating the steel,,, SPEED / VELOCITY is steels down fall.
the savage 99 was available in 308 winchester
Can/could you shoot 22lr from a 22 mag chamber in a SHTF scenario?
Ron, I have a few questions that I have been thanking about for a while. If my memory serves me correctly. The original load for the 270 win was pushing a 130 gr bullet somewhere around 3100 fps. But they had downloaded it because so many hunters that were culling deer herds had complained about the meat damage. My questions come as that since they have the magnums out today, is there a company that load 270 win to the original load or is there an loading manual has the original load data. Another question is since the 6.8 mm cartridges have started showing up with different bullet weights and BC. Will this breath a little more variety into the 270 win, giving it the ability it to be more versatile? Maybe for varmint to moose?
The 6.8 projectiles are going to be to heavy for the twist rate of the 270
Gotta be careful with old load data. I saw a print article several years ago where they tested Jack O'Connor's most used 270 load, and some other eminent writer's load of the time (with new components and powder). I forget the powder, but it was/is a common one. Current manuals list a maximum something like 1.5 grains less than Jack was using back then. Maybe the pressure testing equipment has gotten better, i don't know. They had the load pressure tested at a lab, and it was over pressure alright. I think the diff was too much to be explained away by burning rate variation between lots of powder. It was a testament to the rifles that they took a steady diet of these loads. So, don't rely on old manuals. Use recent manuals, buy a new one every few years, and the Hodgdon Annual. And don't start with max loads. As the safety warnings say, reduce the max loads by the appropriate %, and work your way up, watching for pressure signs. Many cartridges seem to give best accuracy a little below max anyway. And it really isn't worth it just chasing that last 30-50 fps. Or worse yet, going over max because you have a "slow" rifle and think you can in order to get the max velocity in the book. Don't do it! The engineers and professional ballisticians with calibrated pressure measuring equipment know what they are doing when they update the manuals.
Why would anyone think it should be a “.556”? It is quite obviously stated that this is the METRIC size designation as it literally says Millimeters at the end. I don’t really know any way that it could be made any more obvious and my goodness those babies would be a heck of a lot bigger than they currently are if they were indeed “.556”!😂
You don’t have to quench the brass when annealing.
It's the horsepower a small bullet at high speed will always win
Simply speed , but you know that