REFUSED transit of controlled airspace
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- Опубліковано 23 жов 2019
- After enjoying unhindered passage across France in the PA28, through class D and C airspace, TMAs, CTAs and CTRs, we get a brutal reality check on our return to the UK. An "issue" at one of London's airports blocks our planned route.
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• Europe trip 2019
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I thought it was a great series, up to you usual very high standards Jon, thank you. A wonderful insight into flying in France's airspace.. and returning back to our own congested airspace of course!!!
Thanks Kevin. It was enjoyable to put the series together.
Thank you Jon ! Very useful info in this video. Looking forward to the next update ! Greetings from EBAW 👍
Greetings. Thank you.
South East England is the worlds busiest airspace in terms of movements and pax numbers; although it is not ideal and complex but it does make you the better pilot. Flying anwhere else would be a breeze
I love you videos: they help me keep my flying english more or less up to day, especially the listening... used to hold a UK license quite a few years ago. Radio in the UK is very rigorous, I like it a lot.
Brilliant series Sir! Enjoyed it immensely, as someone who hasn't even had 1 flying lesson I found it very fascinating how helpful French atc are and how much easier that wpuld have made your round trip. As someone else already said, funny how you have to deal with congestion as soon as you approach British airspace lol I have really enjoyed watching your travels abroad, brilliant editing! Thank you Jon, and t'other John too!
Thanks Chris. It was amusing how it all fell apart as soon as we returned. It’s not usually that bad!
It has been a very enjoyable and informative series Jon. Thanks for posting it and all the work that goes into editing etc.
Appreciate it Tim. Thanks.
Love your videos - Calculus seems easier than understanding ATC in the UK.
A fantastic series, Jon. You should consider a career in television:) Whist never taking our privileges for granted the contrast between the accessibility of UK controlled airspace, compared to the rest of Europe and the USA is quite stark. I've regularly flown in the Class B around Orlando, once got a VFR clearance to transit LAX but recently had to go the long way around Leeds Bradford! As you say there are often good reasons for refusal in our more congested skies, but they are not always apparent. On the whole ATC does a great job keeping us safe and I'm sure we are all grateful for the great work they do.
I don’t have any argument with controllers, they are working with what they have, but our airspace, ATS funding and provision outside controlled airspace is substandard in comparison to most other parts of the developed world, IMO.
Welcome back!
It’s been a great series and certainly an eye-opener for just how simple (in relative terms!) it is to fly across France as opposed to trying to fly through the UK’s increasingly congested and “over-controlled” airspace.
You did make a joke with John in an earlier programme about moving your flying activity to France.....! All joking aside, perhaps it is something you should seriously consider!
Another great video Jon!
Already looking forward to your next production.
Regards from the Wirral, UK.
Thanks Darren. I’m more inclined to try and fly in Europe as much as I can from now on.
Superb Jon. Can’t wait for the RT mini series!
Great series Jon, looking forward to your next adventure in Europe
Fantastic video Jon, I did have a wry smile throughout as we had a winter flying talk at the club last night and Farnborough came along to explain the new airspace restrictions. Class E airspace going to be in place in part and the consensus seemed that they will have created a very tight corridor that the many will use to avoid asking for a transit!
When does it come into effect Marvin?
February 2020, to be fair to them they are sharing information really well. On first look at the ‘new’ chart It looks horrendous, as I say the general feeling is a narrow corridor will be the norm for most people with departing IFR traffic routing south in the centre of it as it ascends.
A fitting end to a neat trip. Thanks.
Around here (Canada) nice summer weekends almost always mean restricted Terminal airspace. Nav Canada are having difficulty training enough people, apparently.
That’s a worldwide problem.
Jon, your videos are always wonderful to watch!
Thanks Peter.
Common, no mater how busy the stupid gatwick is, this is why there is the CTR, they land and takeoff using extremely small area, you should even be able to cross overhead the airport if too busy for touch and go. This is how usually is here in France, and here Toulouse can be just as busy.
Hey Jon, another great video. Really interesting to see how tricky it can be to deal with UK ATC as GA. When are you coming to Australia? Thankfully our system is much more straightforward, not perfect mind you, but then we do have plenty of space! 😛
This was a very enjoyable series. You did a good job on advertising France to the GA community. And then the somewhere tragic ending: British ATC seems not to be on a high level. FIS fails to have radar, no distributed flight plans (for which ATC wants a "pre-notification" instead?), no alternate CAS transits if a direct isn't possible due to traffic, strips with flight details just disappear, the list goes on...
France (and other EU members) encourage GA and aviation in general - the UK sees GA as a burden to be barely tolerated…….
I’m biased of course. But you should really try to fly across Sweden next summer.
Go to Visby, ESSV. It’s lovely and VFR is so simple here.
If you have time ESNQ ( Kiruna) to see the midnight sun around midsummer.
I will try to fly down to France and over to UK in the next few years. France seams easy.. UK, I think I go IFR 😂
The French ATC'c are very accommodating even for Ultralights and the weekend jocks. UK atc on the other and - well a different tale.
Thanks for the video Jon, interesting to see you using the NATS pre notification portal. I’ve not used it yet; have you seen evidence that it actually does help the controller to know who you are and be prepared for your transit request. I’ve found transits very much depend on the airfield. Edinburgh and Tyne Tees, transits both times I asked as did Bristol; Luton usually will give a transit and even did when 8 was non transponder, Stansted is hit and miss, depends on their traffic. Newcastle is my bad boy, asked twice in different years and refused on both occasions. I know it all depends on controller workload and other traffic, but Newcastle cant be that much busier than Edinburgh or Luton ?
Happy flying !
Thanks. The NATS AUP does help the controller, they have a pre prepared strip, but as far as I can tell, that’s all it does for them/you. I’ve had it work, where They have my details, but they still check everything with you, so it doesn’t cut RT, just stops them from having to enter your details. Yes, transits are dependent on so many things in the UK, whereas in France, apart from the really busy airports, they can be virtually taken for granted.
Welcome home 👋🏻🇬🇧😂
Great series 👍🏻👍🏻
Check out the video about the uncivil aviation authority. With the heavy busting of pilots and the lack of transits it is a mess.
Fantastic series Jon very inspiring and of course a pain regarding the TMA's etc but then I guess the French do have a lot more airspace then we do. Don't know if you follow Mentor Pilot on UA-cam but he is asking for anyone who knows any youngsters or people who want to become commercial pilots to sign up for a new scheme he has come up with for funding for training, sounds like a good idea to me, if you want to go take a look!
Thanks David.
Haha Toulouse Information 121.25 is what I would use in every single flight for traffic info 😀
Wow! I never realized flying GA especially VFR in UK is so complicated. Makes the US look like cowboy country, and it really is. Much more work there in terms of VFR flying etc.
Awwww had a real moment when I saw my aircraft parked behind you as you left Deuville. G-TIFG sure gets around (as do you).
Apart from a few MATZ and ATZ transits, I’ve never done a Class D transit before. I presume they key is to know what routing you’re looking for, be specific, be prepared for the RT exchange and have a backup plan if they say no.
Any other advice?
They make it so hard here in the UK. It depends on where. Luton, Stansted, Gatwick, expect to route overhead, at a restricted altitude. Elsewhere, its as you describe. They often like you routing via vrps, but not always. Ask for your route, and see what you get. Have a plan b.
Be confident on the radio. Avail yourself of the current information and pass that in your CARPACER spiel. Plan a route at right angles to the active runway and suggest an altitude to the controller “requesting a transit X to Y via the overhead at 2000ft on the [aerodrome qnh] of Xxxx” tee up the tower frequency so it doesn’t surprise you when radar hand you over for the actual aerodrome transit... be prepared to orbit :)
Vfr flying in the UK is excellent preparation for the IFR ticket. Same does NOT apply in USA.
Interested to know your through process behind flying over Brighton Marina VRP which is a listed Shoreham VRP, without calling them?
Hi. A) no requirement to. B) it’s more than 7 miles east or Shoreham, and they couldn’t really provide me with an effective service there, and C) At 4500ft, I’m unlikely to conflict with any of Shoreham’s traffic.
Further to that, on a sunny day Shoreham will be rammed. ATC really aren't interested in hearing someone's life story and providing a useless basic service to someone well outside and above the atz.
I take your point, but France is empty compared to the UK. I doubt you could have achieved a zone crossing through Charles De Gaulle.
I think I made that point.
Transits across LAX, JFK or SFO are as easy as pie, and their airspace is at least as busy as southern England.
You Brits should be more demanding. This is all very fixable, but you just kinda endure it.
Mark Newton airspace in southern England is by far busier than those airports you listed. From memory, 130 million passengers transit southern England where as LAX is nowhere near. You may not be aware but Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Standsted are very busy, especially LHR (as you know) are all within 50 miles of each other. It is crazy
The UK is the odd one out here really. Everywhere else in Europe, or the world for that matter, they don't make such a big deal of crossing controlled airspace as they do in the UK. Clearances are usually always granted unless there is an emergency going on or something extraordinary.
Hmm depends on the airport or airspace. The london area or TMA is only 11% of Europe’s airspace but hosts 25% of the traffic. With the greatest respect it’s not worth a controllers time increasing their work load by getting a VFR
Flight across
P28A ??
I know it's very confusing but that's the ICAO code for the Piper Cherokee Warrior 2 cfapp.icao.int/Doc8643/reports/Part1-By%20Manufacturer%20(Encode).pdf
should be PA28
Big business over here Jon so probably more about keeping the jets safe rather than making life easy for you.
One thing i am appalled at is the way London Information lost your details there as you coasted in.
That would technically mean no SAR coverage if you had an emergency and had to ditch.NATS are usually better than that,i would ask a question as to why that happened.
Thanks for posting all the videos,france seems a wonderful place for GA.
Thanks Sean. I suspect it was another OR on frequency...no harm done this time.
Hey Sean: Other ATC orgs manage to keep big jets safe AND make life easier for lighties. Indeed, having light aircraft “in the system” makes it easier to handle the big jets because ATC ends up with a fuller picture of who is where and doing what, and has 2-way contact with anyone who might need to be moved out of the way.
UK’s ATC system just seems *weird*. Its procedures and limitations are spring-loaded for inefficiency and frequency congestion (eg lack of integration means every time you contact a new facility you need to read out your full flight details and routing and get a new transponder code) and that inefficiency increases controller workload to the point where they become too busy to work light aircraft.
In the USA or Australia in a similar situation, Jon would have been given a transponder code on first contact which would be preserved for his entire flight, and a “flight following” service in class G which meant ATC would not only have their eyes on him, but would also tell him which freq he needed next and proactively offer clearances for any upcoming controlled airspace. As he’d cross from one airspace boundary to the next, the integrated radar system would ensure that all his details and routing data would already be on the screen of the next controller so he wouldn’t need to offer it again.
Does “basic service” mean anything other than “we’ll give you QNH”? What is the point of it?
Hard to see why the Uk’s system is so baroque. Choices, I guess.
@@MarkNewtonFlies ,100% agree with your comments as i have experienced ATC in both of those countries and others as well as a GA pilot.The only time i felt overloaded was in NYC just after 9 11,which is understandble as they were jumpy.
I think probably because of three factors is why it works as it does;
One is the crowded nature of our small island especially down south with all the airspace constraints.
Two: i think our ATC system has evolved more from the military way of doing things as both sides work very closely together in the ATCC.
Finally it is to do with money as commercial aviation definitely takes preceedence over here and GA is seen as more of a nuisance as it is seen 'to get in the way' somewhat.
That all said our controllers are superb with what they have to deal with on a daily basis and are very helpful to GA which is growing but nothing like what you see in Aus etc where it is almost intergrated into the way of life due to the vastness of the landmass.
Sean McErlean I think you’re right about the military origins of ATC. Not the only country with that problem.
The southern England airspace seems a lot more complicated than it needs to be, though. The big jets want to be in the flight levels as quickly as possible for fuel burn reasons; if it was going to be rationalized, I’d put a 5 nm radius class B around each major airline airport and RAAF base with a “ramp” of class C from each runway threshold up to an overlying ceiling above FL110, leaving most of what’s underneath reasonably clear of airspace hassles. Plenty of space above FL110 for A380s to fly holds waiting for their slots at Heathrow without being messed about by the non-pressurized traffic below.
ATC and airspace are both things that evolve incrementally. If everyone had a chance to start again from scratch it could be made a lot better, but that’s a pipe dream.
Meanwhile, come and fly in Australia. It’s nice down here :)
Thanks for your reply Mark and i think that the ' layered wedding cake principal' was one developed in the US after major terminal area crashes around San Diego and LAX.
It seems to work well.
We kind of have the same in the UK but being Class A rather than Class D for the most part prohibits efficient GA traffic routing as you need the IR to do pass through anything above Class D.
The other thing is the Honeypot syndrome around VOR and NDB for the GA guys who all fly around the 2000 foot level and comgregate around the beacons because the airspace is so restricted either above or around.
I have had the pleasure already of flying in your amazing country out of Bankstown,Tullamarine and Brisbane when on stopovers as Crew and very much look forward to returning some day.
I folllow Stef drury as well down there.
Just a shame it's a damn long way to get down there.
Stay safe and who knows we may meet up one day to go explore Aus.
1st world problem Jon?
And the wonder why we refer to them as the Campaign Against Aviation? I sometimes get the impression they refuse just because they can.
‘REFUSED’ ........ click bait much? Long time subscriber, pilot & controller, not up to your usual standard. How brutal was your reality check? But all is ok as long as you throw in a mention of the ‘issue’ and it’s a little busier here at the end.
Otherwise enjoyed your jaunt around France and look forward to your next trip.
Chris
Thanks Chris.
ATC in the UK is rubbish, a lack of coordination. Unfriendly. Unhelpful. Crap.
Not always, but our airspace system isn’t wonderful, and ATSOCAS are very hit and miss, disjointed, and uncoordinated. That’s the difference between the UK and the rest of Europe, and the point I wanted to make in the video.
Biggles would be aghast
You sound like an angry little Ga pilot John
@@benr970 Read the other comments Ben R. I fly in N America, yes, as a GA pilot. I can fly from Yellow Knife in the Yukon (Canada) to Cab San Lucas in Mexico on one flight plan with one seamless system (operated by three countries). In the UK, I can't fly over three counties without needing new requests for assistance and the type of assistance I require - from different operators. UK ATC is, as I said, utter rubbish by comparison. Oh, and Ben, you're just little.
@@johnvaleanbaily246 inclined to disagree I’m afraid, USA air traffic is completely ridiculous and inherently in safe. “You are number 5 cleared to land”. That’s just mental
Amateurs get a grip