EXTRA POINTS TO CLARIFY 1) Use the code TREE for 40% off World Anvil with the link worldanvil.com/?c=mltt Or else try it out for free!! 2) When I talk about Tysha actually loving Tyrion, I'm talking more about what Tyrion comes to think, rarher than what may be objectively true. Just because Tywin was lying doesn't necessarily mean Tyrion's idealistic view of their romance is 100% correct, but the objective truth wasn't really the focus of what I was saying. 3) The whole change in his relationship with Sansa did slightly damage his character, I don't know why I said it didn't. I suppose it didn't damage it overall, so much as just an isolated section of the story, though that just lost depth in place of Shae being a bit jealous of Sansa. 4) I know Jorah also captures Tyrion in the books, my wording makes it sound like he doesn't. That happens in the books too but if comes off the back of Tyrion having already been challenged/having things taken from him, and their fall into slavery is a lot less...pointless. 5) Hello there!
Instead of saying things like "S.A." *1:52* I wish creators would say "youtube" when it's UA-cam's fault that creators are terrified of saying a word and being demonitized.
I truly think they just decided that they didn't want to turn Tyrion evil because they liked Peter Dinklage too much. Like, oh no we can't make him evil, everyone would hate us for that. Which is super frustrating because Peter Dinklage was one of the stand-out actors on that show and the last few seasons they just gave him nothing to do. After his trial he was completely wasted. If he had gone darkside, it would've been entirely justified and understandable, and I think a lot of the audience would've felt that conflict whilst watching it. You would want him to stop going down that path all the while knowing that he probably won't. It would be like watching the Star Wars Prequels. You know what's coming with Anakin whilst wishing it wasn't. Having Tyrion be the devil on Dany's shoulder would've been so much more compelling than the seven thousandth joke about Varys' lack of a cock.
you mean, the audience liked Dinklage too much, or D&D, or both? When they brought Jon Snow back from the dead, I jut accepted the show was going to be completely character-driven, which isn't the worst thing that can happen to a series. Audiences tend to forgive everything else after they've fallen in love with the characters. There's also a big difference with Star Wars, in that even though you know Anakin turns into Darth, he reunites with his son and they are reconciled before his death. Dani didn't have any such redemption, and I think the ending still would have been a train wreck.
@@squirlmysince when was GOT not character driven ? Also Vader turning good in the end doesn’t change the fact that he lost everything in revenge to the sith
@@squirlmy both really. I think the showrunners didn't give the audience enough credit that they might still like Tyrion even if they (audience) were conflicted about it. I think they (showrunners) were too afraid to mess with the characters, rather just made them archetypes of their former selves. George is all about turning expected character types on their head: trueborn son Robb isn't the fabled hero meant to avenge his father, his bastard brother Jon will be that fabled hero instead and it won't be to avenge his father, it will be to save the world. Tyrion was, to the showrunners, the smart mouthed advisor who was destined for greatness but was overlooked and belittled because he was a literal dwarf. And that was how they wanted him to stay. They put his character into a box and didn't want to take it out at any cost and it ruined his character because of it. Peter Dinklage could only do so much. I think the Tysha thing winds up irrevocably changing the trajectories of both Tyrion and Jaime. One brother starts out evil, loses his hand but regains his honour and will end the story a hero. Whereas Tyrion starts as a sympathetic hero type, gradually gains power but loses his sense of identity and will end the story a villain imo. The Tysha reveal is that point in the middle of their archs where they fully swap over. By removing it you get rid of Jaime finally breaking free from Cersei, the literal worse half of himself, and by removing it, Tyrion loses all motivation for wanting to make those of Westeros pay. (Hoping this all makes sense, I've only just woken up 😅)
I really wish they would have put in the groundwork for Tyrion and Dany trying not to be like their fathers. There are many times in the books where Tyrion thinks about him doing things that his father would do. But, they could have definitely made it to where he wanted to do things better than his father and better for the people.
Me too. In the books I want them to meet and while building up a trusting friendship with each other they both encourage each other to be better than their fathers. Both are the children of bad men and so would understand not wanting to be like them. And both had Cersei and Viserys who blamed them for the death of their mothers and were abused by them etc. So they have similarities to each other that can help them bond, in terms of having been mistreated and wanting to be better
Tyrion in the books is slightly less cruel than his father but not above murder. He is willing to consider those under him that are from different backgrounds (bronn, the clansman, prostitutes)
@@tenkenroo Well, in the books you have Tyrion sinking deep into a personal hell and gets crueler except for Penny In the show he just turns into a depressed drunk
@@misabelrodriguez1163Book Tyrion is actively his father, he’s the most like his father out of the 3 lannisters, book tyrion is also pretty vile and does some dark and disturbing things
The version of Tyrion in the show was great...Peter Dinklage was the best actor for the role, but Tyrion was always an "ugly" character who had a lot of charm and cunning he used to compensate. They didnt "ugly up" Dinglage enough for the character to be realized...a problem compounded when Tyrion doesnt lose his nose in the show. Now it's just Peter Dinklage with a cool scar, not an ugly Tyrion with different colored hair, different colored eyes, and no nose. That's a BIG difference when maneuvering through "love" and "polite society". Brienne and Jorah were other "ugly" characters who were hurt by casting attractive actors (even though the actors were great). Tyrion's Tysha/Shae arc WAS ruined in the show, but for me, it was by the omission of the "My Giant Of Lannister" reveal/testimony. To hear his most sincere/intimate pillow talk brought up in court for all to hear and to be laughed at was very effective in the book, but wassnt set up or executed decently in the show (much like bread and salt before the Red Wedding).
I understand them with the scar, you gotta think from a production standpoint. It would be alot more work to make him have no nose every single day they shot, it would just waste time with makeup and cost a lot of money. It was smart for them just doing the scar honestly, but I see what you are saying with them making tyrion good looking
@@KamikazeChinaman It would cost a lot and also take a lot of valuable time every day of set to do the nose, so it's also a timing thing. Even George RR martin said something about it and that he understood why they didn't do it
In the books doesn't GRRM describe Jon and Arya as both being kinda unattractive as well. iirc he makes a comparison to one or both of them having a bit of a resemblance to a horse.
@@fuktrumpanzeeskum Yes he does. The main reason is to show that they follow the Stark bloodline (more than Rob and Sansa who have the auburn hair and Tully features)..invoking images of Lyanna. Arya is called "Arya Horse Face" many times by multiple people in the book.
So sad to see such a smart, capable character take such a hard L. I’ll never forgive them for Tyrion being the one to say “Who has a greater story than BrAn tHe bROkeN” ugh nooooooo it was a final nail in the coffin for such a once clever character. Great analysis as always!
@@Emilia-_. Your right I was just saying he doesn’t have a shit story like people make it out to be. I still prefer him as king over jon snow being sent to the wall and worst of all, sansa being made queen of the north 🤦♂️
In the books, Tyrion is driven be the betrayal of his first love and keeps thinking back on her with melancholy all the time. When the big blow comes that she was loyal and true and he in fact violated her in a way that is against his character, all from being tricked by his brother and cruel father, the rage Tyrion feels is absolutely justified. You keep thinking “this is not smart, Tyrion, but I get it”. And then afterwards he still keeps thinking about his first love, the only one who actually was true to him, who loved him, it is even more melancholy and self hating than before. He even has a mantra for it. “Where do whores go?” Removing her makes Tyrion so much smaller and watered down. She was one of his main driving forces.
I got so pissed that they made his murder of Shae "self defence", how Tywin was a split second decision(he said Tywin was rising to take the weapon from him when he fired in "Dance"and how he is just the same character rather than the horrible wreck he becomes in DWD, causing as much pain as possible with his actions rather than truly caring about a side(his manipulation of (Aegon/Faegon), etc;
To me what ruins Tyrion in the show was the showrunners being afraid to show how gray Tyrion/Jaime are.Tyrion in the books is a misogynist, not above murdering a man just on the chance they are a threat to his position. He states (with a large amount of sarcasm) that he wants to sexually assault and murder cersei. Not having the full context of tysha( a woman tyrion was forced to have sex with) that he was lied about by the only person he completely trusted breaks his psyche and leads him down a very dark path.
@@misabelrodriguez1163 so in the books Jorah and Tyrion talk to an old crone and Jorah tries to pretend his motivations are noble then she asks Tyrion why he wants to meet dany and he says he wants to help dany so he can ask of her that dany will let him murder and sa cersei. Course this is Tyrion so it’s kind of dripping with sarcasm. This was adwd tyrion.
Not started the video yet but I think he was ruined in season 5 when he goes to Meereen. After that he doesn't really do anything except make dick jokes. He's supposed to be Daenarys' advisor but in the few instances he does advise her he gets it wrong and Daenarys tells him off whilst he looks at the ground like a child. I'd have liked to see a darker and more vengeful Tyrion like his book character or a revelation about him being the bastard of King Aerys. Instead, just like Euron, his show character is basically there as comic relief even though neither of them say anything funny or clever.
I would pinpoint "the moment" differently, though close. In the books it's pretty heavily implied that Tyrion has the ROSIEST of tinted lenses for his time with Tysha (made a bit difficult, or easier, by Tyrion being one of the most unreliable narrators), but the real moment is when in the show, Shae picks up a knife to attack Tyrion. It turns this first act of darkness into one of self-defense, poor blameless Tyrion, and so on. That's ultimately the end of his forward momentum, because the story is trying to teach us "Oh, look how cruel Westeros is that it did this to one of its more pure characters" but....Tyrion already KNOWS all that. And Sansa is a far better vehicle for that message. Wow a lot of this seems to stem from the fact D+D can't understand women. Weird.
1) it sounds a lot like show Tyrion was whitewashed; taking away his darker traits makes him feel less complex. In the show Tyrion apologizes to Shae as she dies, but she also draws a knife on him first. In the book, it is murder; she doesn’t fight back and Tyrion doesn’t care that he’s killed someone. 2) Penny is the perfect foil for Tyrion; they’ve both suffered terrible losses, but handle the aftermath differently; he’s witty but spiteful, she’s kind and playful (y’know, outside the one time she tried to kill him). 3) D&D tried nothing and were all out of ideas; giving him nothing to do is probably what killed my interest in the show (well that and one other thing *glares at Arya*). 4) Having Tyrion be the devil on Dany’s shoulders would’ve been way more interesting than her ignoring what he says and doing things in spite of him; gives them both something to do and ponder on what are the right choices.
@@CrackingCodyThat's exactly what whitewashing is, bud. Consider using google. "deliberately attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about (someone or something)." 🙄
Oh no sorry, I forgot that any time a word has "white" in it it must be tied to race! You'd probably also say that black magic means "magic practiced by black people" eh? ;)
@@wilczus222 Whitewashing in character discussions is most typically used to mean replacing a black character with a white one, but I guess you had to frenziedly imagine a racist strawman for you to get mad at and laugh about. Do you think of yourself as funny or smart?
@@CharlotteSWeb-oh7ou You do realize i know that, right? I'm correcting Cracking Cody, not OP. But i guess you just had to frienziedly imagine a triggerded rightoid to get mad at and laugh about, didn't you? Feel more superior after scolding me? ;)
for me the worse offense for Tyrion is they made him the smartest man in Westeros BUT gave him and him alone the "brilliant" idea of him putting all the women and children into the crypts during the long night. WHA?????? Like even during the Actor interviews, none of them could believe it
Ya the thing with Tyrion is that he is a decent military strategist and is shown being obsessed with dragons what he should have done is there should have been a ton of Tyrion citing history and dany not wanting to be cautious due to having dragons. It would have been neat if he cited dance with dragons battles and how dragon after dragon were killed. That is something dany doesn’t really know she has some education but most of it was second hand. Tyrion understands that maesters have biases that inform history. That’s how you write intelligent characters not dick jokes
Smartest man _in Westeros_ is the key there. As soon as he got to Essos his intelligence started evaporating, and he never recovered it. (I'm joking, of course. Unless...?)
They took away several of his smarter moments though. For example, the wildfire ships by itself was just...well, weak. However, his use of the boom chain to keep out Stannis's larger ships AND using the current to burn the majority of Stannis's fleet was epic.
Dude....that simple twist would have made episodes seven and eight of that last season ridiculously diabolical. Having Tyrion manipulate Dany into using Drogon to destroy King's Landing as his revenge against not only Cersei, but all of King's Landing because of how they treated him during his time as Hand and then during his trial when they laughed at him when Shay called him "my Giant of Lannister." A Tyrion who never actually cared about the common folk using Dany and Drogon as his scourge against his family who betrayed him and anyone who mocked and ridiculed him makes a hell of a lot more sense than the blubbering "Tyrion" we got in the show who got big sad because the sister who did nothing but torment him was dead.
Im disappointed, not that they left out a lot of the tysha syuff, but that they didn't make an effort to still develop tyrions character in the same way. We dont need to know, in detail, what happened to Tysha. Only that Tywin took the only person who ever loved Tyrion for who he was, and punished and humiliated her for it. Then we need to see how that one heinous act completely shapes who Tyrion is and how he reacts to the world around him. In the books, Tyrion is smart and strategic but he fails and gets outsmarted by Varys or Tywin or Cersei even. Almost everything he does seems to be a way to get back at Tywin for Tysha. Or for just the general mistreatment he's experienced his whole life but it always comes back to Tysha. As much as Tyrion wants to be loved, i think he wants to be *right*. he wants to prove tywin and the realm wrong, he wants to be successful and revered, and while i can't blame him entirely for ending up that way, it is his responsibility to be better than his father. Instead of following the advice he gives to Jon, he lets everyone's perception of him determine his own value to himself, and by book five he's Tywin writ small, with a copious amount of daddy issues to boot
i’d never even considered his advice to jon in AGOT, that’s a brilliant insight. i think that’s so interesting because jon really seems to take it to heart where tyrion can’t believe it himself, he’s just posturing
@@carmina-solis thank you! It's one of my favorite parts of tyrion's story and I think it's something GRRM did to hint at his villainy early on. The words he uses are so specific. "Wear it like armor so that it can't be used against you." It doesn't feel like "Be true to yourself and words can never hurt you" but more like he's admitting that he's scared and needs to be protected. Fear of becoming Tywin, or dying, or getting outsmarted by Cersei is what drives Tyrion's story. I think the biggest supporter of the Tyrion is actually the mad kings son theory is how much fear and paranoia drive his motivations in the books.
@@carmina-solis and don't even get me started on what I think it might mean to Jon 🤣 it is so interesting that he takes the words Tyrion says and finds the true meaning there, and I'd be interested to see how it might've affected his relationships on the wall in the books since he and Tyrion are less friendly and more like traveling companions Edit: I've read the books but didn't have this perspective when Jon first got to the Wall. I'm dying to reread if you can't tell lol
Dude the opening line of season 8 pissed me off so much! Not only is cracking dick jokes a weird tone to set before the apocalyptic life or death struggle against the night king but the joke isn't even funny. "You hate dwarf jokes but keep making eunuch jokes. Why is that?" "Because I have balls and you don't" I'm paraphrasing but how is that funny? How did that make it through all the layers of the writing process and still end up in the final script??? The joke is that Varys is a eunuch but we've known that since season 1!
eh, idk. The fact that it isn't funny might have been meant to symbolize something; maybe that their fates are sealed. The characters are doomed and going to do what they do without good reason, which might have been an interesting foreshadowing, if the writing backed it up. A "scorpion and frog on the river" kind of tragedy. Basically very few of Tyrion's jokes offer any comic relief even when RR was doing the writing, and if you were expecting that I think you're kinda missing the point; he tells jokes because he's bitter and never laughs at those jokes himself. Look to other flaws to hate season h8te.
@@squirlmy That was just the tip of the iceberg of things I hate about season 8. I really don't think it was intended as any kind of symbolism. I think it was supposed to be funny. They made loads of other dick jokes in the last few seasons too. Tyrion was always funny in the earlier seasons especially when mocking Cersei or Joffrey. The difference is, the Tyrion humour in the early seasons was embedded in actual dialogue. In the later seasons the jokes are the dialogue.
The fact that the show also takes away that Tyrion himself was SA'd during the situation with Tysha (because it absolutely is what happened, let's be clear) was already to me a sign that they were willing to remove unpleasant and ambiguous traits from his character.
I hated that they took so much away from his character. He was morally grey which added to his character but they were really keen on making him all good for the show. And they took Tysha, sure she was mentioned a few times but they took away the Tysha confession of Jaime too. So bad
To me the thing that really ruined Tyrion was casting Peter Dinklage as him and then not having him have his nose mutilated. Peter Dinklage is too good looking for playing Tyrion.
D&D didn't want Tyrion's scar to be too ugly because 'it would have made people love him less'.... Honestly, those guys have as much understanding of what makes a character compelling as a panda has about spinal surgery....
stopping this show in season 3 and starting the books is the best experience possible. I ate all the books up in a month and I’ll never continue the show as it won’t live up to what I’ve read
Removing Tysha's story made no sense to me at first. But than I understood that they whent a different way with Tyrion as GRRM and D&D realy whent different ways early on. Tyrion is a demon in the books and meant to be an agent of chaos while the sho wanted Tyrion to be a voice for good and a moral compas because he whent through things and was a tragic character. The show needed people to win, while GRRM needed to show the cost of power and the chaos that those who seek it spreadnot only to others but also to future generatins...
@@shinken6636 @shinken6636 I do agree about the greyness of Tyrion's character in the series and how Martin meant to subvert the evil adviser trope. Martin also clearly shows that Tyrion likes spreading chaos and doesn't mind taking advantage of the system to satisfy his needs. Also something you might not have picked on, Martin is clearly drawing from the eastern demon monkey agent of chaos trope. I recommend anybody to watch LuciferMeansLightbringer's videos on Tyrion.
The worst part is, the kill all of kings landing speech showed that Peter Dinklage would have been sooo good as a darker Tyrion. So much wasted potential.
Great video! Book Tyrion and show Tyrion are VERY different characters. One of the reason I love the books so much is it's written entirely through the PoV of the character so we get a great in-depth look how they feel about about things and how they view things. By the time we get to book five, A Dance With Dragons, after everything has happened we have a very different Tyrion Lannister. Thanks for visiting GRRM's world again, this was great and I look forward to the next one. I'm always telling the folks in my book club to check out your videos about the ASOIAF characters 🙂
I love the idea of Tyrion pushing Dany to Mad Queen status (even if it's not 100% purposeful) out of a need for revenge against his family, and all those that have wronged and hated him in Westeros. Would have made so much more sense than what we got in the show.
Excellent video! I'd also like to point out that in ADWD there are several characters who could be and are at various times suspected of being the Harpy, including Hizdar who is not killed by the sons of the Harpy in the book, and Galazza Galare a meerenese priestess who brokered a temporary peace between Dany and the slavers who was cut from the show. Removing and reducing the role of such characters handicapped the Mereen story line and is yet another example of how D&D ruined the show by stripping it of the complexity and nuance that made the books and early seasons of GOT so compelling.
Hope you are feeling better You are pretty spot on, I find it interesting that most of the characters are at least slightly nicer than their book counterparts, Personally i would have liked to see more of the Sea Chain in the TV because it helps demonstrate Tyrions ruthlessness, I think that his easy ride as you say detracts from much of his curdling, this is common with other characters its like thickening to butter from cream all the little turns servere to tighten and enrich the mix. The failing in the series was that in their rush to cut out bits they ran out of story too soon.
Tbf, i don’t know what he looked like so I found it not that bad. Quite a highlight, humanising a random Lannister soldier who are usually just bad guys
@@raph3699 that's why it didn't bother me either - because I had no idea who he was. And to find out that it wasn't fanservice for the GOT fans, but fanservice for Maisie Williams, just made it seem adorable to me
I love your analysis of Tyrion, frankly the book version of him is hard to stand behind sometimes. Although you see glimpses of goodness in him, he is still a emotionally stunted mess, egotistical, pitiful, and immature. Downright unlikable at times, but he is interesting. The show is very restrained in comparison yet it loves to shock people with cruelty not even seen the books, it’s strange. They are afraid that people lacking media literacy will not enjoy the morally complicated characters and instead makes characters like Tyrion, Jorah, Jon, and Dany good with some minor flaws that can be overlooked. This makes me want a Jon video because I believe he and Dany are the 2 characters that were hit the worst in the show. ADWD is my favorite book because Jon and Dany are grappling with their newfound power, Jon’s chapters has always been my favorite.
Frankly when I read AGoT for the first time I got the feeling that we was supposed to be more of a bad guy, and reading the following books felt like GRRM warmed up to him a little
I would love to see you do the psychology of Sam Tarly, especially from the book. I related so much to his anxiety disorder and the way it is seen as "being A Coward" in his world. And how he copes with it and overcomes it.
Haven’t started the video yet but the problem with Tyrion started long before since he was supposed to show signs of pettiness like he did in the first book when heading up to the wall, not only that but making him a good guy in the show was a mistake considering the route and path he went through in the books and is currently heading on in the books. If anything I find the show and book characters to be two different people since you can’t call the show version Tyrion Lannister like you can in the books.
For me, Tysha is crucial, when it comes to Tyrion because it changed everything in the end of S04. He wasn't exactly the Tyrion of the books previously either, but it was then that his character took a big U-turn (the motivation for killing Tywin and how he departs with Jamie). Tyrion's biggest deficit, which defines his story and character, is that he was never loved and appreciated. On the contrary, he was seen as a "monster". The only person who he trusted and felt loved by was Jamie. In one fatal moment, he learns that Tysha really did love him, and she was punished for that. She was raped by a bunch of Lannister soldiers, and Tyrion himself was made to watch and rape her too. Her only crime was that she dared to love Tyrion. Not a Lannister, not gold, not power, but him as a person. When you read the few sweet moments of them together in the books (through Tyrion's memories,) it's heartbreaking and makes it even more a tragedy, knowing afterwards what really happened. On top of that, he also learns that the only person who he thought had his back, Jamie, had lied to him about Tysha all this time. In that moment, Tyrion truly has lost everyone. He feels completely alone, lost and betrayed. He's full of rage and hate, which brings us to his following actions; killing a weak and defenseless person, Shay, who owned him nothing (Tyrion in the books knows what Shae is, and that it isn't luuuve,) and who didn't try to kill him. Annnd, if that wasn't enough already, he finally commits patricide. No wonder he wants to die on the way to Essos. He has become the monster. It doesn't mean that Tyrion will go down the path of full villainy in the books - I think it could go both ways. But the series cut off the spine of Tyrion's character and story. In other words, they took away from him, "the human heart in conflict with itself". So, yeah, I would say Tysha is the number one change that affects everything else. The rest is just a consequence of all that. As GRRM says, it's the butterfly effect. His mindset, motivation and desires on the way to Essos are completely different. Not to mention that his story in Essos, in terms of plot and characters surrounding him, is different too. No (F)Aegon, no Penny, no Ben Plumm. His entire story, from S5 until the very end, was a complete waste.
Tywin: what do you want? Tyrion: I want a title. Did you know that for a small fee you can adopt a parcel of land somewhere called "Scotland" and they give you a title? Tywin: The first time I laid eyes on you I knew you couldn't be mine. ESTABLISHED TITLES is a scam! Tyrion: By the Seven, I wish I had asked through the safety and anonymity granted by NORDVPN
Omg. Cabbage patch kids and pound puppies are a scam too. You get a paper saying you adopted a child and a dog but really it's just a doll and a toy! People just scammed and victimized. And stupid idiots virtue signaling that this actually matters. Maybe they will make a movie over all the heroes against established titles.
To sum it up: season 5. Season 5 ruined Tyrion. All of what built up in season 4 in terms of his Joffrey murder trial really took a toll on his relationships with everyone in Kings Landing and his immediately family. All D&D did with it was make him drink it all away in depression when he got to Pentos. That wasn't development: it was a reset button on his character so the plot could have him captured and brought to Daenyrs without anything of his past mattering other than his supposed intelligence. The only thing he accomplished with that was a temporary peace in Mereen while Daenyrs was gone?
In the books Tyrion is full of hate for his brother, sister, father, having totally ruined his chance in a better life. He can’t stand them, he can’t stand kings landing, the stupidity of the people, even his brothers who can’t see who Cersei is, the hypocrisy going on around him. So is full of spite and emotion. But this is also interesting. Will he give into his revenge, his hate and become the monster everyone portrayed him to be or will he stand his ground? There is a small hint from quarth, she warns Danny about the lion and the perfumed sentinel, not to trust them. So this small hint shows that tyrions agenda will be far more self serving. Another challenge for Danny to overcome on her path. This is an interesting little conflict there. Tyrion vs his worst self vs Danny’s interest. It certainly isn’t this flat thing we saw on tv. I am angry with Martin who sold his characters to these producers and allowed them to do whatever they wanted with them. They couldn’t stand up to the challenges of an epic fantasy. Instead they turned it to a cheap melo drama investing more on the soap opera element. Tyrion vs bad sister, who had him all wrong. I don’t think that book Tyrion would even condescend to be the good guy anymore as these days are past. He played that part and he lost the first round. If he returns to Westeros for round 2 apparently he has to play the game harder and darker to match Cersei’s insanity. Because at least in martins books the characters do evolve from their experiences and flow with the story.
thank you for the „the trial is held to prove that Tyrion doesn’t have half as much political skill as he‘d make you think“ point, because i finally realised that that‘s what bothered me so much. Tyrion is smart and cunning if he actually tries, he‘s insightful and people-smart, but he‘s also a self-absorbed and occasionally pretty arrogant, petty and selfish person. that scene of him demanding inheritance from Tywin is a PERFECT example of that. it predictably didn‘t change anything, except antagonise Tywin (and Cersei). his lack of diplomatic skill and bitterness are kind of obvious to everyone but him, and it‘s really not a big surprise they want him gone. he‘s so invested in his own big ideas about „fairness“ and what the world ought to be like, that he plain forgets to look at what it actually is like and then work with that. (somewhat ironically a thing he believes himself to be good at) the fact that he miraculously gets away with something like this, when he absolutely shouldn‘t, completely broke immersion for me. it should have been a world-shaking thing for him, especially because he clearly didn‘t see it coming. that entire trial completely demolishes his pride and self image, and it‘s so incredibly out of character for him to not be bitter and vindictive about it. this could have been a chance for him to face the actual reality of the world and either go on a quest for revenge or slowly realise that he brought it into himself, and work on his diplomacy skills. instead the show tries to convince you that it‘s just a small unfortunate thing brought about by scheming women that he had no fault in.
Frankly, Shae kind of obliterated the likelihood of the Tysha story when she said that a girl just saved from rape wouldn't leap into another man's bed. Martin built that castle on sand.
What is the implication that they married and had sex immediately after the bandits were dealt with? they were at the inn for a fortnight so there could be more details Tyrion didn’t reveal.
I really loved your Sansa video (I love Sansa in general) and I also really loved this one as well! I also decided to get a world anvil subscription which was the best idea EVER. Thanks for everything!
There are plenty of examples of this kind of hack writing from D&D long before Season 8. If there has ever been a more insanely overrated writing duo, I have no idea who they would be.
Before even watching this video, I think the thing that went wrong with tyrion on the show is that at the end of season 4, there was no Tysha reveal from Jaime.
The problem with Tyrion in the later seasons is the same as the problem with Dany, Cersei, Jon, Sanza, Arya, Varys, or any other major character arc. All of these characters were created by GRRM. They were all products of his imagination, not D&D, and when they ran out of book material, they were lost. D&D could not hold a candle to GRRM in imagination or character development. They started out adapting the existing books to the screen and were very good at doing that. When they ran out of books, thery had to become creators rather than adapters and were not up to the task.
It was unfortunate how Tyrion's arc was, what I think, wasted in the later seasons. Like since s4 or mid-s4. I think it was because the writers D&D loved the actor and how they wrote the character with all these witty (and entertaining) one liners. Which is what drew me to loving the character as well, besides Peter Dinklage's acting. And dude did a lot and his best to work with the script when God's writing became weak and boring. Maybe its a thing where people didn't want their favorite characters to do evil or bad things, but it should be more normalized for that to happen. Giving a character flaws and conflicts is what gives a character depth and can still be entertaining. It may make people feel uncomfortable depending on what bad acts they do, but that's part of the things with flaws, we know them to be bad and such. And would've killed to see Peter Dinklage to act those out. Ngl, it really felt like he was written to be a Gary Stu by D&D during s4 and onwards. Also, just found it weird with the "love triangle" between him, Dany, and Jon Snow. Like I could've kinda see it, but wasn't set up much. Really love seeing these breakdowns on the character both in the books and show.
The more I learn about GOT, the more I'm concerned about the creator. The show is full of incest, rape, murder in very brutal ways. Like who sits around envisioning the details of incest?
Oh man, watching these videos make me hate the video editors even more than in the final season. "Let's make a show where you can't see ANYTHING." Such a complete mess the last two seasons
It’s especially unfortunate given that for a long time, Aerys and Tywin were friends And that there’s a non-zero chance that Tyrion is literally Dany’s brother from another mother
@@CrackingCody THEON? No. Absolutely not. You can make the argument for Jorah if your standard for "better" is "more of a good person", but that's not better, that's just _different_ . That's not the point of Jorah's character. Same with Pod, and to an extent Robb.
Shae's arch was, to me, written for her to be a spy for Tywin all along but they chickened out and decided to make her the most petty, vindictive bitch ever on screen. I still cannot wrap my head around her betraying a man she loved, condemning him to death, then playing lovey-dovey with him father days later. All for trying to keep her safe. I'm not buying that. She was a plant who was supposed to watch Tyrion and became an false witness when Joffrey was killed. D & D either missed the point or just didn't want to deal with it.
1 of the best scenes for jamie was when telling brienee about him slaying the king and all the emotion. Havinf tyrion talk about what happened 2 ANY1 couldve been a powerful scene but they just had him tell dick jokes instead lol
The show ruins lots of things. Just today I was continuing my re-watch of the series, season 3 E4, where Joffrey is showing Margaery the spot where Rhaenyra Targaryen is buried and goes on to describe her death. I have Fire and Blood, I was purposely avoiding reading it with HOTD coming to HBO to avoid spoilers and some how GOT has ruined it for me.
In the book or the show? Because she's not dead in the book. In the show I _guess_ you could say it's Tyrion's fault for sending her to Dorne. But the Sand Snakes' plot is legitimately insane so no reasonable person could have predicted they'd do that.
The issue was they did Tyrion right for the first couple of seasons then after he was sentenced to death he became a dumb drunk....despite being a "deboturous" little genius that was treated terribly by everyone but Jamie throughout the whole books so far.
Are you ever going to do a Daenerys character arc I'm unconvinced that she will not go mad just cause the history of women in ASOIAF especially Targaryen women are treated pretty horribly and to have the last Targaryen woman go mad isn't satisfactory for me
Maybe she won’t go mad, but since Westeros tends to frown on woman in power they will see her as mad. If Aegon does actually take the throne and becomes loved even for a short time it seems like Daenerys removing him from power will look bad. If he is a fake I cannot realistically seeing how Daenerys can prove it to all of Westeros, so it seem like a fake story she made up to justify stealing power from her nephew. She is bringing a foreign army to a xenophobic society already. There are already rumors flying around that paint her in a bad light. It could be Daenerys doesn’t go mad, but her actions look bad to Westeros and she never wins them over. When the story is over she will be remembered in the same vane as her father or Aegon the Unworthy. While Aegon/Young Griff, who could be a fake, is just remembered as the heroic person who had his life and power stolen by his evil and greedy aunt.
I've seen a theory that she doesn't literally go mad, but inadvertently sets off wildfire in a potential siege of KL, becoming a "mad queen" to the people - and eventually sacrifices herself to defeat the others, thus giving her redemption in death. Her true narrative was never meant to take the iron throne (it was not her dream, but viserys'), and i believe she'll realize that before the end.
Looking back Dani's sadism and cruelty was not a new thing. It was foreshadowed since season 1. She just killed off people the audience didn't like. Her anti slavery stance was a virtue signal and to make her look morally superior. It gave her a motive but she was more cruel than kind.
@somethingclever8916 the girl who specifically requested she see the faces of every innocent child crucified by the masters so as not to become callous to the suffering of the people, does not then turn around and needlessly burn the people alive for shits and giggles after she already won a battle. Nor does the girl who put her "ambitions" on the backburner and decided to stay and rule when her conquered cities turned back to chaos, even locking her dragons up. Please be realistic. Also, a lot of her "ruthlessness" and quotes about burning cities and all that which show defenders like to bring up never took place in the books. Dan&Dave just wanted to do that because they can't write female characters (hence shit like Sansa saying she's glad she got raped or whatever).
The most important factor in the ruination of Tyrion is the same as with the rest of the characters: The utter inability of Benioff and Weiss to write dialogue. Shallow people cannot write dialogue for deep characters.
Generally speaking, changing things in an adaptation is perfectly fine as long as you have something interesting in its place. The problem wasn’t the omission of the Tysha reveal; it was that they didn’t succeed at doing anything good in its place.
Old Tyrion went out when he killed Tywin. I still remember when i watched S5 the first time and immediately thought this Tyrion is off. And it only got worse with him from then on. And yes, Tyrion was at a crossroad at that point. But D&D went with the lazy approach, because it was such a liked character. So they tried to not make him a villain. That resulted in a boring and sad dick joke robot who is stupid on top. Instead he should ve been filled with a fierce will for revenge against Cersei and a despise for the people of Kings Landing, because he had all the reasons for that. Such a Tyrion as the Hand of a more and more mad queen Dany would ve made much more sense and kept his character interesting. And we all know Peter Dinklage would ve nailed a villain Tyrion perfectly. Its really disappointing how this great actor got wasted in the 2nd half of the show...
It's arguably not the most entertaining, but it's certainly consistent for his character and provides interesting exploration. I think his arc in that book would've been better received if it had a proper conclusion that I think was lost when the battle of fire wasn't included
@@tyrant-den884 His entire character development would be lost. All of the impact of the weight of the Tysha reveal and his killing of Tywin would have been lost. We would have lost the complicated dynamic he has with Penny, we would have lost the entire Aegon plotline, which Tyrion deliberately derails because he's bored and vindictive. The entire point of his journey in Dance is to show how nihilistic and cruel he has become. He abuses a sex worker, he uses his political acumen to convince Aegon to change his plans and go to Dorne, with the express intention of getting him killed, for no other reason than because he can.
@@bookswithike3256 I did not say to cut out the Tysha reveal and Then kill, I said to cut out the boring as f_ck thank God it wasn't in the show Aegon bullsh-t.
I don't think the Tysha story line is that important, even in the books it seems like it is an added on story line. Things that are ignored from the book is the fact that Tyrion basically orders Bronn to kill the singer, he ends up in a pot of brown. He is already a murderer in King Landing. What is important is that he had to learn humility, he was still an extremely privileged individual, because he was a Lannister, that is what he learns with Penny. He also wasn't as clever as the thought he was, especially against Littlefinger and Varys. He needs to learn a lot of humility, as for example Jon Snow does in the first season and book. He needs to learn to plot better, and he his character does turn darker. Of course in the show it was absolutely ridiculous how he constantly wanted to trust Cersei or he wanted to negotiate with Cersei, if that was just removed it would already have been better. In truth Tyrion's book journey after he murders Tywin is also somewhat problematic. You can see it is a long arc, and something that will not be solved very easily.
I agree with a lot of your points, but I disagree that Tysha wasn't that important. Tysha was a key experience for Tyrion, because it instilled something in him that plagues him deeply for the rest of his life, and that's the idea that he is unlovable. When he is told Tysha, the first person he had a genuine romantic connection with, was a hired actress playing a role all along, this teaches him that no one could ever genuinely love him for who he is. so he spends the following years living by that assumption, trying to buy happiness by buying whores and wine and fine things, all the while with the painful assumption that that is the closest he will ever get to love. you can tell that feeling haunts him during his wedding night with sansa; sure, he is decent enough to not assault a scared child bride, but his internal dialogue definitely reflects that he is hurt by her repulsion and takes it personally, despite there being very logical reasons sansa wouldn't want to sleep with him regardless of his appearance. it shows that he sort of frames all his interactions with people around the core idea that they must be revolted by his appearance and that no one would ever see past that, So when Jamie tells him that Tysha was really just a girl who loved him, who saw past his dwarfism, who didn't know he was a Lannister or that he was rich, who just loved HIM, that not only completely destroys his trust in Jamie, the only sibling he had a connection with, but incites the rage that drives him to kill Tywin, because now he finally realizes how thoroughly Tywin has been abusing him this entire time. This is the catalyst that really pushes him closer to going towards a darker path in the future. Tysha may not herself be that important, but the revelation of the truth is definitely integral to Tyrion's future character developement. it completely reshaped his view of the world.
It kind of is super important for Tyrion as Jaime. Jaime from book 1 mentions he finds it interesting he is reviled for an act he’s proud of and loved for an act he never did. Tyrion learning he was loved completely breaks him and in dance asks everyone “where do whores go?” Tyrion learning one person loved him despite his misshapen body and it wasn’t a lie is important.
Taisha was never a part of the show. People have no emotional connection to her. But they have one for shae. So ut'e actually wise to let the taisha thing go. This obviously works in a book but certainly not in a tv show where the audience connects not with Backstorys but to the protagonists on screen.
I wouldn't say having shae genuinely care about tyrion downplays the idea that his own scheming againts others came to back fire on him during his trial. Mainly because that is what happened when she came to testify against him.
The death of Tywin made no sense on the show. Tyrion shoots him for calling Shae a whore, and that was her chosen occupation. That's how Tyrion met her, when he was hiring her as his personal whore. Why would he be willing to kill someone for calling her what she was?
Ruined is a bit strong. I absolutely loved Tyrions character! Drinklage played him superbly well. his intelligence and zest for life was fantastically heartwarming. That he went downhill rapidly later one once he got to power, simply made him human! Lots of revolutionaries fail miserably once they end up in power.
The book backstory/ real story makes Tyrion’s trial speech lane even harder. Also having Tyrion joint Danny seeking revenge on Lannisters and Kings landing vsfighting for a better realm, saving the innocents, bla, bla, bla, sounds more GOT.
I think this is a well thought out and fair analysis, however I really did like Tyrion's character and did not want to see him as a villain. To me, he was a lot like Sansa, a pawn who tries to make the best of his situation and he's "bad" only because he has a broken heart and doesn't believe that anyone has or will love him. I think he's more tragic (even though he survived the whole series) than a villain. I think in GOT, there were a few other characters that were more villainous than Tyrion.
I'm still hoping Tyrion and Sansa meet up again, have a laugh about how the last time they saw each other was the best day of their lives, kill Littlefinger and become a real power couple. Eh, it's only another decade until the next book is out. A man can dream.
@@timtheskeptic1147 Sansa's reaction to the wedding: He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. “You have a good heart, my lady,” she said to Sansa. “Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf.” As for the molestation: She climbed onto the featherbed, conscious of his stare. A scented beeswax candle burned on the bedside table and rose petals had been strewn between the sheets. She had started to pull up a blanket to cover herself when she heard him say, “No.” The cold made her shiver, but she obeyed. Her eyes closed, and she waited. After a moment she heard the sound of her husband pulling off his boots, and the rustle of clothing as he undressed himself. When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast, Sansa could not help but shudder. She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next. Would he touch her again? Kiss her? Should she open her legs for him now? She did not know what was expected of her. “Sansa.” The hand was gone. “Open your eyes.” She had promised to obey; she opened her eyes. He was sitting by her feet, naked. Where his legs joined, his man’s staff poked up stiff and hard from a thicket of coarse yellow hair, but it was the only thing about him that was straight.
Dani's villain storyline was not a sudden change. She was always blood thirsty and vengeful. She was always challenged by characters the audiences didn't like to being repugnant or worse than her. She was never benevolent or compassionate. Imagine season 1 one if everyone Cersei killed was a worse person than her.
Someone who was “never benevolent or compassionate” wouldn’t spend the majority of the show worrying about the slaves and small folk of the world. They wouldn’t put aside their own selfish desires and give all they had to save the seven kingdoms. You can not like Dany, but she wasn’t the evil monster you want to make her out to be.
You can't just blanently ignore book danys characters contrast and similarities to the show here. Like as early as season 2 , the fkn show dumbed down dany hard amd changed sht that made her seem entitled however she was always someone who is compassionate and cares for the small folk. She embodies hope in the fked up sht show that is the current pace of the books and is a damn good character which will not go batshit insane either.
@@johnivory3245 Yes was smiling when her brother died and the witch was executed like she was having an orgasm. The story would be very different if both those characters were kind and benevolent. saying you're against slavery is like saying your against gladiatorial death matches or witch burnings. You say a lot and do nothing. look at current media corporate messaging with "historic slavery bad" but ignore current year condition of starvation wages, forced slavery or forced worked, tech that build its empire off slavery. jewels people wear and batteries were mined by slaves. This interaction is the product of slaves. But white liberal saviors looking compassion and virtue signaling while doing evil things is a very real fact. I think social justice warriors are pure evil.
@@CharleyGurl- I’m reading ASOIAF now. I’m about 1/3 through GOT and he’s the same as the show…for now. So much of this first book is the same, or very similar, to the show. I know that’s going to change though!
@@carastone3473 He's far more morally grey and complicated. He's just a "good guy" and funny in the show. It's a shame, Peter was great in the trial scenes.
Was shocked to see this pop up in my recommended. I am sick of the finger pointing cry baby's still going on about a show that has been over for a long time. Listen plant your little tree in a place were it can grow..... please think of something that is more important than a TV show.
I take it from that comment you took this video to be some very bitter complaint about the show. It's not, I feel no great wound about the show. I only watched it last year. I am however very curious to try and understand exactly what went wrong when compared to the books. For which I find it interesting to try and see the problems with Tyrion beyond just saying the typical "they made him do dumb things and make too many cock jokes" problems with stories is interesting to me, especially when it's problems with characters
They turned Tyrion into such an idiot in the second half of the show. Like thinking Cersei would actually help them?! Starving King’s Landing and waiting instead of just taking it?! Wanting to fucking save Cersei?! That was bad. And they had him always mess up and say stupid ludicrous things while expecting us to still think he’s brilliant and that Dany should keep listening to him. For all their talk about loving Peter Dinklage and the character, the two hacks completely ruined him
Show Tyrion becoming a dumbass and a weak pacifist is such an insult to GRRM’s favorite character. Like yes he is one of the better Lannisters but he’s still a very gray character and he’s supposed to have his dark side. And after learning that his wife really loved him and his brother and father lied to him it caused him to snap and become much darker. And he would have been advising Dany to be more ruthless instead of being passive and not doing anything
Tyrion is really bad and bland in Essos in both book and show, so idk why you’re acting like the book 5 version of Tyrion is somehow superior lol. There’s a reason why a lot of your videos don’t do well, bud. It’s because you have bad takes. Like you wanting Penny to appear is laughable. Penny is almost universally hated amongst the fandom.
Bland and not particularly entertaining is a fair argument (although I think it's underrated) however to argue it doesn't make sense for his character? That it doesn't provide interesting exploration and is the build up for a very satisfying arc to come? I think it'd have been better received were it given more of a conclusion in the book, instead leaving the battle of fire and other aspects still to happen, it feels a bit wayward in its ending, however "interesting narrative" and "fitting character" are two different things. This video focuses on the second for which, yeah I think Penny serves an important role. Doesn't bother me if people dislike her. Loads dislike Catelyn and Sansa and I think they're wrong to do so although my interest is always more in understanding characters, so that would make sense for me.
Season 5 Tyrion is a drunken dude who thinks he has no purpose to live. On the contrary, in ADWD he is filled with vengeance for his family, even for Jaime. I wouldn't go as far a s to say that Tyrion wouldn't have a problem seeing his family being roasted alive by dragonfire...
Not like we're going to get the 2 final books any way. So, it doesn't really matter how much better everybody's story arcs are in the books, the show at least ended those character arcs and the books will probably never have any kind of conclusion good, bad or otherwise bar fanfiction.
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2) When I talk about Tysha actually loving Tyrion, I'm talking more about what Tyrion comes to think, rarher than what may be objectively true. Just because Tywin was lying doesn't necessarily mean Tyrion's idealistic view of their romance is 100% correct, but the objective truth wasn't really the focus of what I was saying.
3) The whole change in his relationship with Sansa did slightly damage his character, I don't know why I said it didn't. I suppose it didn't damage it overall, so much as just an isolated section of the story, though that just lost depth in place of Shae being a bit jealous of Sansa.
4) I know Jorah also captures Tyrion in the books, my wording makes it sound like he doesn't. That happens in the books too but if comes off the back of Tyrion having already been challenged/having things taken from him, and their fall into slavery is a lot less...pointless.
5) Hello there!
Instead of saying things like "S.A." *1:52* I wish creators would say "youtube" when it's UA-cam's fault that creators are terrified of saying a word and being demonitized.
Sad
😅😅😅
I truly think they just decided that they didn't want to turn Tyrion evil because they liked Peter Dinklage too much. Like, oh no we can't make him evil, everyone would hate us for that. Which is super frustrating because Peter Dinklage was one of the stand-out actors on that show and the last few seasons they just gave him nothing to do. After his trial he was completely wasted. If he had gone darkside, it would've been entirely justified and understandable, and I think a lot of the audience would've felt that conflict whilst watching it. You would want him to stop going down that path all the while knowing that he probably won't. It would be like watching the Star Wars Prequels. You know what's coming with Anakin whilst wishing it wasn't.
Having Tyrion be the devil on Dany's shoulder would've been so much more compelling than the seven thousandth joke about Varys' lack of a cock.
you mean, the audience liked Dinklage too much, or D&D, or both? When they brought Jon Snow back from the dead, I jut accepted the show was going to be completely character-driven, which isn't the worst thing that can happen to a series. Audiences tend to forgive everything else after they've fallen in love with the characters. There's also a big difference with Star Wars, in that even though you know Anakin turns into Darth, he reunites with his son and they are reconciled before his death. Dani didn't have any such redemption, and I think the ending still would have been a train wreck.
@@squirlmysince when was GOT not character driven ?
Also Vader turning good in the end doesn’t change the fact that he lost everything in revenge to the sith
Imagine Dinklage getting to portray a descent into evil. He'd be amazing. We were robbed😢
@@squirlmy both really. I think the showrunners didn't give the audience enough credit that they might still like Tyrion even if they (audience) were conflicted about it. I think they (showrunners) were too afraid to mess with the characters, rather just made them archetypes of their former selves. George is all about turning expected character types on their head: trueborn son Robb isn't the fabled hero meant to avenge his father, his bastard brother Jon will be that fabled hero instead and it won't be to avenge his father, it will be to save the world. Tyrion was, to the showrunners, the smart mouthed advisor who was destined for greatness but was overlooked and belittled because he was a literal dwarf. And that was how they wanted him to stay. They put his character into a box and didn't want to take it out at any cost and it ruined his character because of it. Peter Dinklage could only do so much.
I think the Tysha thing winds up irrevocably changing the trajectories of both Tyrion and Jaime. One brother starts out evil, loses his hand but regains his honour and will end the story a hero. Whereas Tyrion starts as a sympathetic hero type, gradually gains power but loses his sense of identity and will end the story a villain imo. The Tysha reveal is that point in the middle of their archs where they fully swap over. By removing it you get rid of Jaime finally breaking free from Cersei, the literal worse half of himself, and by removing it, Tyrion loses all motivation for wanting to make those of Westeros pay.
(Hoping this all makes sense, I've only just woken up 😅)
@@naomilamont3277 truly. He's such a fantastic actor but he can only do so much with the script he was given.
I really wish they would have put in the groundwork for Tyrion and Dany trying not to be like their fathers. There are many times in the books where Tyrion thinks about him doing things that his father would do. But, they could have definitely made it to where he wanted to do things better than his father and better for the people.
Me too. In the books I want them to meet and while building up a trusting friendship with each other they both encourage each other to be better than their fathers. Both are the children of bad men and so would understand not wanting to be like them. And both had Cersei and Viserys who blamed them for the death of their mothers and were abused by them etc. So they have similarities to each other that can help them bond, in terms of having been mistreated and wanting to be better
Tyrion in the books is slightly less cruel than his father but not above murder. He is willing to consider those under him that are from different backgrounds (bronn, the clansman, prostitutes)
@@tenkenroo Well, in the books you have Tyrion sinking deep into a personal hell and gets crueler except for Penny
In the show he just turns into a depressed drunk
@@misabelrodriguez1163Book Tyrion is actively his father, he’s the most like his father out of the 3 lannisters, book tyrion is also pretty vile and does some dark and disturbing things
People don't understand this story. Tyrion is his father. Targaryens are the bad guys.
The version of Tyrion in the show was great...Peter Dinklage was the best actor for the role, but Tyrion was always an "ugly" character who had a lot of charm and cunning he used to compensate. They didnt "ugly up" Dinglage enough for the character to be realized...a problem compounded when Tyrion doesnt lose his nose in the show. Now it's just Peter Dinklage with a cool scar, not an ugly Tyrion with different colored hair, different colored eyes, and no nose. That's a BIG difference when maneuvering through "love" and "polite society". Brienne and Jorah were other "ugly" characters who were hurt by casting attractive actors (even though the actors were great). Tyrion's Tysha/Shae arc WAS ruined in the show, but for me, it was by the omission of the "My Giant Of Lannister" reveal/testimony. To hear his most sincere/intimate pillow talk brought up in court for all to hear and to be laughed at was very effective in the book, but wassnt set up or executed decently in the show (much like bread and salt before the Red Wedding).
I understand them with the scar, you gotta think from a production standpoint. It would be alot more work to make him have no nose every single day they shot, it would just waste time with makeup and cost a lot of money. It was smart for them just doing the scar honestly, but I see what you are saying with them making tyrion good looking
@@loki3836 They wasted more time and money on stupid shit, so I don't think that's the case.
@@KamikazeChinaman It would cost a lot and also take a lot of valuable time every day of set to do the nose, so it's also a timing thing. Even George RR martin said something about it and that he understood why they didn't do it
In the books doesn't GRRM describe Jon and Arya as both being kinda unattractive as well. iirc he makes a comparison to one or both of them having a bit of a resemblance to a horse.
@@fuktrumpanzeeskum Yes he does. The main reason is to show that they follow the Stark bloodline (more than Rob and Sansa who have the auburn hair and Tully features)..invoking images of Lyanna. Arya is called "Arya Horse Face" many times by multiple people in the book.
So sad to see such a smart, capable character take such a hard L. I’ll never forgive them for Tyrion being the one to say “Who has a greater story than BrAn tHe bROkeN” ugh nooooooo it was a final nail in the coffin for such a once clever character.
Great analysis as always!
But here’s the thing, bran had an interesting ass story, look at everything he did? It was unlike any other characters story.
@@jbatts834so when you have a cool story you can be king? The night king had a cool story too
@@Emilia-_. Your right I was just saying he doesn’t have a shit story like people make it out to be. I still prefer him as king over jon snow being sent to the wall and worst of all, sansa being made queen of the north 🤦♂️
@@jbatts834 i think almost all of the stark endings are barely mediocre and disappointing at best and a horrible mischaracterization at worst
@@Emilia-_. At least its not as bad as Daenerys' ending right 😢
In the books, Tyrion is driven be the betrayal of his first love and keeps thinking back on her with melancholy all the time. When the big blow comes that she was loyal and true and he in fact violated her in a way that is against his character, all from being tricked by his brother and cruel father, the rage Tyrion feels is absolutely justified. You keep thinking “this is not smart, Tyrion, but I get it”. And then afterwards he still keeps thinking about his first love, the only one who actually was true to him, who loved him, it is even more melancholy and self hating than before. He even has a mantra for it. “Where do whores go?”
Removing her makes Tyrion so much smaller and watered down. She was one of his main driving forces.
I got so pissed that they made his murder of Shae "self defence", how Tywin was a split second decision(he said Tywin was rising to take the weapon from him when he fired in "Dance"and how he is just the same character rather than the horrible wreck he becomes in DWD, causing as much pain as possible with his actions rather than truly caring about a side(his manipulation of (Aegon/Faegon), etc;
To me what ruins Tyrion in the show was the showrunners being afraid to show how gray Tyrion/Jaime are.Tyrion in the books is a misogynist, not above murdering a man just on the chance they are a threat to his position. He states (with a large amount of sarcasm) that he wants to sexually assault and murder cersei.
Not having the full context of tysha( a woman tyrion was forced to have sex with) that he was lied about by the only person he completely trusted breaks his psyche and leads him down a very dark path.
When did he mention that he wanted to sa Cersei?
@@misabelrodriguez1163 so in the books Jorah and Tyrion talk to an old crone and Jorah tries to pretend his motivations are noble then she asks Tyrion why he wants to meet dany and he says he wants to help dany so he can ask of her that dany will let him murder and sa cersei. Course this is Tyrion so it’s kind of dripping with sarcasm. This was adwd tyrion.
@@tenkenroo oh alright so he wasn't serious about the sa part
@@misabelrodriguez1163 well it’s kind of left up in the air but I don’t think tyrion meant that part
@@tenkenroo 👍
Not started the video yet but I think he was ruined in season 5 when he goes to Meereen. After that he doesn't really do anything except make dick jokes. He's supposed to be Daenarys' advisor but in the few instances he does advise her he gets it wrong and Daenarys tells him off whilst he looks at the ground like a child.
I'd have liked to see a darker and more vengeful Tyrion like his book character or a revelation about him being the bastard of King Aerys. Instead, just like Euron, his show character is basically there as comic relief even though neither of them say anything funny or clever.
I would pinpoint "the moment" differently, though close. In the books it's pretty heavily implied that Tyrion has the ROSIEST of tinted lenses for his time with Tysha (made a bit difficult, or easier, by Tyrion being one of the most unreliable narrators), but the real moment is when in the show, Shae picks up a knife to attack Tyrion. It turns this first act of darkness into one of self-defense, poor blameless Tyrion, and so on. That's ultimately the end of his forward momentum, because the story is trying to teach us "Oh, look how cruel Westeros is that it did this to one of its more pure characters" but....Tyrion already KNOWS all that. And Sansa is a far better vehicle for that message.
Wow a lot of this seems to stem from the fact D+D can't understand women. Weird.
1) it sounds a lot like show Tyrion was whitewashed; taking away his darker traits makes him feel less complex. In the show Tyrion apologizes to Shae as she dies, but she also draws a knife on him first. In the book, it is murder; she doesn’t fight back and Tyrion doesn’t care that he’s killed someone.
2) Penny is the perfect foil for Tyrion; they’ve both suffered terrible losses, but handle the aftermath differently; he’s witty but spiteful, she’s kind and playful (y’know, outside the one time she tried to kill him).
3) D&D tried nothing and were all out of ideas; giving him nothing to do is probably what killed my interest in the show (well that and one other thing *glares at Arya*).
4) Having Tyrion be the devil on Dany’s shoulders would’ve been way more interesting than her ignoring what he says and doing things in spite of him; gives them both something to do and ponder on what are the right choices.
Not what whitewashing is, bud.
@@CrackingCodyThat's exactly what whitewashing is, bud. Consider using google.
"deliberately attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about (someone or something)."
🙄
Oh no sorry, I forgot that any time a word has "white" in it it must be tied to race! You'd probably also say that black magic means "magic practiced by black people" eh? ;)
@@wilczus222 Whitewashing in character discussions is most typically used to mean replacing a black character with a white one, but I guess you had to frenziedly imagine a racist strawman for you to get mad at and laugh about. Do you think of yourself as funny or smart?
@@CharlotteSWeb-oh7ou You do realize i know that, right? I'm correcting Cracking Cody, not OP. But i guess you just had to frienziedly imagine a triggerded rightoid to get mad at and laugh about, didn't you? Feel more superior after scolding me? ;)
for me the worse offense for Tyrion is they made him the smartest man in Westeros BUT gave him and him alone the "brilliant" idea of him putting all the women and children into the crypts during the long night. WHA?????? Like even during the Actor interviews, none of them could believe it
Ya the thing with Tyrion is that he is a decent military strategist and is shown being obsessed with dragons what he should have done is there should have been a ton of Tyrion citing history and dany not wanting to be cautious due to having dragons. It would have been neat if he cited dance with dragons battles and how dragon after dragon were killed. That is something dany doesn’t really know she has some education but most of it was second hand. Tyrion understands that maesters have biases that inform history. That’s how you write intelligent characters not dick jokes
Smartest man _in Westeros_ is the key there. As soon as he got to Essos his intelligence started evaporating, and he never recovered it. (I'm joking, of course. Unless...?)
They took away several of his smarter moments though. For example, the wildfire ships by itself was just...well, weak. However, his use of the boom chain to keep out Stannis's larger ships AND using the current to burn the majority of Stannis's fleet was epic.
S4 is when I literally gave up with the show. Tyrion was my book favorite and I'm gonna be mad about the lack of Tysha forever...ugh.
Dude....that simple twist would have made episodes seven and eight of that last season ridiculously diabolical.
Having Tyrion manipulate Dany into using Drogon to destroy King's Landing as his revenge against not only Cersei, but all of King's Landing because of how they treated him during his time as Hand and then during his trial when they laughed at him when Shay called him "my Giant of Lannister." A Tyrion who never actually cared about the common folk using Dany and Drogon as his scourge against his family who betrayed him and anyone who mocked and ridiculed him makes a hell of a lot more sense than the blubbering "Tyrion" we got in the show who got big sad because the sister who did nothing but torment him was dead.
Im disappointed, not that they left out a lot of the tysha syuff, but that they didn't make an effort to still develop tyrions character in the same way. We dont need to know, in detail, what happened to Tysha. Only that Tywin took the only person who ever loved Tyrion for who he was, and punished and humiliated her for it. Then we need to see how that one heinous act completely shapes who Tyrion is and how he reacts to the world around him.
In the books, Tyrion is smart and strategic but he fails and gets outsmarted by Varys or Tywin or Cersei even. Almost everything he does seems to be a way to get back at Tywin for Tysha. Or for just the general mistreatment he's experienced his whole life but it always comes back to Tysha. As much as Tyrion wants to be loved, i think he wants to be *right*. he wants to prove tywin and the realm wrong, he wants to be successful and revered, and while i can't blame him entirely for ending up that way, it is his responsibility to be better than his father. Instead of following the advice he gives to Jon, he lets everyone's perception of him determine his own value to himself, and by book five he's Tywin writ small, with a copious amount of daddy issues to boot
i’d never even considered his advice to jon in AGOT, that’s a brilliant insight. i think that’s so interesting because jon really seems to take it to heart where tyrion can’t believe it himself, he’s just posturing
@@carmina-solis thank you! It's one of my favorite parts of tyrion's story and I think it's something GRRM did to hint at his villainy early on. The words he uses are so specific. "Wear it like armor so that it can't be used against you." It doesn't feel like "Be true to yourself and words can never hurt you" but more like he's admitting that he's scared and needs to be protected. Fear of becoming Tywin, or dying, or getting outsmarted by Cersei is what drives Tyrion's story. I think the biggest supporter of the Tyrion is actually the mad kings son theory is how much fear and paranoia drive his motivations in the books.
@@carmina-solis and don't even get me started on what I think it might mean to Jon 🤣 it is so interesting that he takes the words Tyrion says and finds the true meaning there, and I'd be interested to see how it might've affected his relationships on the wall in the books since he and Tyrion are less friendly and more like traveling companions
Edit: I've read the books but didn't have this perspective when Jon first got to the Wall. I'm dying to reread if you can't tell lol
Dude the opening line of season 8 pissed me off so much! Not only is cracking dick jokes a weird tone to set before the apocalyptic life or death struggle against the night king but the joke isn't even funny.
"You hate dwarf jokes but keep making eunuch jokes. Why is that?"
"Because I have balls and you don't"
I'm paraphrasing but how is that funny? How did that make it through all the layers of the writing process and still end up in the final script??? The joke is that Varys is a eunuch but we've known that since season 1!
eh, idk. The fact that it isn't funny might have been meant to symbolize something; maybe that their fates are sealed. The characters are doomed and going to do what they do without good reason, which might have been an interesting foreshadowing, if the writing backed it up. A "scorpion and frog on the river" kind of tragedy. Basically very few of Tyrion's jokes offer any comic relief even when RR was doing the writing, and if you were expecting that I think you're kinda missing the point; he tells jokes because he's bitter and never laughs at those jokes himself. Look to other flaws to hate season h8te.
@@squirlmy That was just the tip of the iceberg of things I hate about season 8. I really don't think it was intended as any kind of symbolism. I think it was supposed to be funny. They made loads of other dick jokes in the last few seasons too.
Tyrion was always funny in the earlier seasons especially when mocking Cersei or Joffrey. The difference is, the Tyrion humour in the early seasons was embedded in actual dialogue. In the later seasons the jokes are the dialogue.
The fact that the show also takes away that Tyrion himself was SA'd during the situation with Tysha (because it absolutely is what happened, let's be clear) was already to me a sign that they were willing to remove unpleasant and ambiguous traits from his character.
I hated that they took so much away from his character. He was morally grey which added to his character but they were really keen on making him all good for the show. And they took Tysha, sure she was mentioned a few times but they took away the Tysha confession of Jaime too. So bad
What's SA?
@@Qwerty-jy9mjsexual assault
@@Qwerty-jy9mjsexual assault.
@@Qwerty-jy9mjSexual Assault
To me the thing that really ruined Tyrion was casting Peter Dinklage as him and then not having him have his nose mutilated. Peter Dinklage is too good looking for playing Tyrion.
D&D didn't want Tyrion's scar to be too ugly because 'it would have made people love him less'....
Honestly, those guys have as much understanding of what makes a character compelling as a panda has about spinal surgery....
stopping this show in season 3 and starting the books is the best experience possible. I ate all the books up in a month and I’ll never continue the show as it won’t live up to what I’ve read
Removing Tysha's story made no sense to me at first. But than I understood that they whent a different way with Tyrion as GRRM and D&D realy whent different ways early on. Tyrion is a demon in the books and meant to be an agent of chaos while the sho wanted Tyrion to be a voice for good and a moral compas because he whent through things and was a tragic character. The show needed people to win, while GRRM needed to show the cost of power and the chaos that those who seek it spreadnot only to others but also to future generatins...
@@shinken6636 @shinken6636 I do agree about the greyness of Tyrion's character in the series and how Martin meant to subvert the evil adviser trope.
Martin also clearly shows that Tyrion likes spreading chaos and doesn't mind taking advantage of the system to satisfy his needs.
Also something you might not have picked on, Martin is clearly drawing from the eastern demon monkey agent of chaos trope. I recommend anybody to watch LuciferMeansLightbringer's videos on Tyrion.
The worst part is, the kill all of kings landing speech showed that Peter Dinklage would have been sooo good as a darker Tyrion. So much wasted potential.
Great video! Book Tyrion and show Tyrion are VERY different characters. One of the reason I love the books so much is it's written entirely through the PoV of the character so we get a great in-depth look how they feel about about things and how they view things. By the time we get to book five, A Dance With Dragons, after everything has happened we have a very different Tyrion Lannister. Thanks for visiting GRRM's world again, this was great and I look forward to the next one. I'm always telling the folks in my book club to check out your videos about the ASOIAF characters 🙂
I love the idea of Tyrion pushing Dany to Mad Queen status (even if it's not 100% purposeful) out of a need for revenge against his family, and all those that have wronged and hated him in Westeros. Would have made so much more sense than what we got in the show.
Excellent video! I'd also like to point out that in ADWD there are several characters who could be and are at various times suspected of being the Harpy, including Hizdar who is not killed by the sons of the Harpy in the book, and Galazza Galare a meerenese priestess who brokered a temporary peace between Dany and the slavers who was cut from the show. Removing and reducing the role of such characters handicapped the Mereen story line and is yet another example of how D&D ruined the show by stripping it of the complexity and nuance that made the books and early seasons of GOT so compelling.
Hope you are feeling better
You are pretty spot on, I find it interesting that most of the characters are at least slightly nicer than their book counterparts, Personally i would have liked to see more of the Sea Chain in the TV because it helps demonstrate Tyrions ruthlessness, I think that his easy ride as you say detracts from much of his curdling, this is common with other characters its like thickening to butter from cream all the little turns servere to tighten and enrich the mix. The failing in the series was that in their rush to cut out bits they ran out of story too soon.
The moment GOT finally died, eventually, and for good, was the exact moment Ed Sheeran appeared on screen.
Tbf, i don’t know what he looked like so I found it not that bad. Quite a highlight, humanising a random Lannister soldier who are usually just bad guys
@@raph3699 that's why it didn't bother me either - because I had no idea who he was. And to find out that it wasn't fanservice for the GOT fans, but fanservice for Maisie Williams, just made it seem adorable to me
I think they made him less dark because he such a popular character they were maybe afraid to upset fans
I love your analysis of Tyrion, frankly the book version of him is hard to stand behind sometimes. Although you see glimpses of goodness in him, he is still a emotionally stunted mess, egotistical, pitiful, and immature. Downright unlikable at times, but he is interesting. The show is very restrained in comparison yet it loves to shock people with cruelty not even seen the books, it’s strange. They are afraid that people lacking media literacy will not enjoy the morally complicated characters and instead makes characters like Tyrion, Jorah, Jon, and Dany good with some minor flaws that can be overlooked. This makes me want a Jon video because I believe he and Dany are the 2 characters that were hit the worst in the show. ADWD is my favorite book because Jon and Dany are grappling with their newfound power, Jon’s chapters has always been my favorite.
Frankly when I read AGoT for the first time I got the feeling that we was supposed to be more of a bad guy, and reading the following books felt like GRRM warmed up to him a little
I would love to see you do the psychology of Sam Tarly, especially from the book. I related so much to his anxiety disorder and the way it is seen as "being A Coward" in his world. And how he copes with it and overcomes it.
Haven’t started the video yet but the problem with Tyrion started long before since he was supposed to show signs of pettiness like he did in the first book when heading up to the wall, not only that but making him a good guy in the show was a mistake considering the route and path he went through in the books and is currently heading on in the books.
If anything I find the show and book characters to be two different people since you can’t call the show version Tyrion Lannister like you can in the books.
For me, Tysha is crucial, when it comes to Tyrion because it changed everything in the end of S04. He wasn't exactly the Tyrion of the books previously either, but it was then that his character took a big U-turn (the motivation for killing Tywin and how he departs with Jamie). Tyrion's biggest deficit, which defines his story and character, is that he was never loved and appreciated. On the contrary, he was seen as a "monster". The only person who he trusted and felt loved by was Jamie.
In one fatal moment, he learns that Tysha really did love him, and she was punished for that. She was raped by a bunch of Lannister soldiers, and Tyrion himself was made to watch and rape her too. Her only crime was that she dared to love Tyrion. Not a Lannister, not gold, not power, but him as a person. When you read the few sweet moments of them together in the books (through Tyrion's memories,) it's heartbreaking and makes it even more a tragedy, knowing afterwards what really happened. On top of that, he also learns that the only person who he thought had his back, Jamie, had lied to him about Tysha all this time.
In that moment, Tyrion truly has lost everyone. He feels completely alone, lost and betrayed. He's full of rage and hate, which brings us to his following actions; killing a weak and defenseless person, Shay, who owned him nothing (Tyrion in the books knows what Shae is, and that it isn't luuuve,) and who didn't try to kill him. Annnd, if that wasn't enough already, he finally commits patricide. No wonder he wants to die on the way to Essos. He has become the monster. It doesn't mean that Tyrion will go down the path of full villainy in the books - I think it could go both ways. But the series cut off the spine of Tyrion's character and story. In other words, they took away from him, "the human heart in conflict with itself".
So, yeah, I would say Tysha is the number one change that affects everything else. The rest is just a consequence of all that. As GRRM says, it's the butterfly effect. His mindset, motivation and desires on the way to Essos are completely different. Not to mention that his story in Essos, in terms of plot and characters surrounding him, is different too. No (F)Aegon, no Penny, no Ben Plumm. His entire story, from S5 until the very end, was a complete waste.
Tywin: what do you want?
Tyrion: I want a title. Did you know that for a small fee you can adopt a parcel of land somewhere called "Scotland" and they give you a title?
Tywin: The first time I laid eyes on you I knew you couldn't be mine. ESTABLISHED TITLES is a scam!
Tyrion: By the Seven, I wish I had asked through the safety and anonymity granted by NORDVPN
Omg. Cabbage patch kids and pound puppies are a scam too. You get a paper saying you adopted a child and a dog but really it's just a doll and a toy! People just scammed and victimized.
And stupid idiots virtue signaling that this actually matters.
Maybe they will make a movie over all the heroes against established titles.
thank you 😂
I also don't think Shae had much choice once Cersei identifies and sends for her (which happens on the show). She will testify or die.
To sum it up: season 5. Season 5 ruined Tyrion. All of what built up in season 4 in terms of his Joffrey murder trial really took a toll on his relationships with everyone in Kings Landing and his immediately family. All D&D did with it was make him drink it all away in depression when he got to Pentos. That wasn't development: it was a reset button on his character so the plot could have him captured and brought to Daenyrs without anything of his past mattering other than his supposed intelligence. The only thing he accomplished with that was a temporary peace in Mereen while Daenyrs was gone?
In the books Tyrion is full of hate for his brother, sister, father, having totally ruined his chance in a better life. He can’t stand them, he can’t stand kings landing, the stupidity of the people, even his brothers who can’t see who Cersei is, the hypocrisy going on around him. So is full of spite and emotion. But this is also interesting. Will he give into his revenge, his hate and become the monster everyone portrayed him to be or will he stand his ground? There is a small hint from quarth, she warns Danny about the lion and the perfumed sentinel, not to trust them. So this small hint shows that tyrions agenda will be far more self serving. Another challenge for Danny to overcome on her path. This is an interesting little conflict there. Tyrion vs his worst self vs Danny’s interest. It certainly isn’t this flat thing we saw on tv. I am angry with Martin who sold his characters to these producers and allowed them to do whatever they wanted with them. They couldn’t stand up to the challenges of an epic fantasy. Instead they turned it to a cheap melo drama investing more on the soap opera element. Tyrion vs bad sister, who had him all wrong. I don’t think that book Tyrion would even condescend to be the good guy anymore as these days are past. He played that part and he lost the first round. If he returns to Westeros for round 2 apparently he has to play the game harder and darker to match Cersei’s insanity. Because at least in martins books the characters do evolve from their experiences and flow with the story.
thank you for the „the trial is held to prove that Tyrion doesn’t have half as much political skill as he‘d make you think“ point, because i finally realised that that‘s what bothered me so much.
Tyrion is smart and cunning if he actually tries, he‘s insightful and people-smart, but he‘s also a self-absorbed and occasionally pretty arrogant, petty and selfish person.
that scene of him demanding inheritance from Tywin is a PERFECT example of that. it predictably didn‘t change anything, except antagonise Tywin (and Cersei).
his lack of diplomatic skill and bitterness are kind of obvious to everyone but him, and it‘s really not a big surprise they want him gone.
he‘s so invested in his own big ideas about „fairness“ and what the world ought to be like, that he plain forgets to look at what it actually is like and then work with that. (somewhat ironically a thing he believes himself to be good at)
the fact that he miraculously gets away with something like this, when he absolutely shouldn‘t, completely broke immersion for me.
it should have been a world-shaking thing for him, especially because he clearly didn‘t see it coming. that entire trial completely demolishes his pride and self image, and it‘s so incredibly out of character for him to not be bitter and vindictive about it.
this could have been a chance for him to face the actual reality of the world and either go on a quest for revenge or slowly realise that he brought it into himself, and work on his diplomacy skills.
instead the show tries to convince you that it‘s just a small unfortunate thing brought about by scheming women that he had no fault in.
Your opening gives me flashbacks to playing Myst.
Can you please please make one of these videos on Margaery Tyrel? Cause I foumd her character in the movie fascinating.
Frankly, Shae kind of obliterated the likelihood of the Tysha story when she said that a girl just saved from rape wouldn't leap into another man's bed. Martin built that castle on sand.
What is the implication that they married and had sex immediately after the bandits were dealt with? they were at the inn for a fortnight so there could be more details Tyrion didn’t reveal.
@@juwebles4352two weeks is very short time
I really loved your Sansa video (I love Sansa in general) and I also really loved this one as well! I also decided to get a world anvil subscription which was the best idea EVER. Thanks for everything!
Keep going with world anvil, I'll get it some day 😂
There are plenty of examples of this kind of hack writing from D&D long before Season 8.
If there has ever been a more insanely overrated writing duo, I have no idea who they would be.
Before even watching this video, I think the thing that went wrong with tyrion on the show is that at the end of season 4, there was no Tysha reveal from Jaime.
gaem of frones
Why does that translate into we have a family 😂
Fabulous analysis. Thank you!
Oh wow, thank you so much
The problem with Tyrion in the later seasons is the same as the problem with Dany, Cersei, Jon, Sanza, Arya, Varys, or any other major character arc. All of these characters were created by GRRM. They were all products of his imagination, not D&D, and when they ran out of book material, they were lost. D&D could not hold a candle to GRRM in imagination or character development. They started out adapting the existing books to the screen and were very good at doing that. When they ran out of books, thery had to become creators rather than adapters and were not up to the task.
Excited for the eventual Dany video
It was unfortunate how Tyrion's arc was, what I think, wasted in the later seasons. Like since s4 or mid-s4. I think it was because the writers D&D loved the actor and how they wrote the character with all these witty (and entertaining) one liners. Which is what drew me to loving the character as well, besides Peter Dinklage's acting. And dude did a lot and his best to work with the script when God's writing became weak and boring. Maybe its a thing where people didn't want their favorite characters to do evil or bad things, but it should be more normalized for that to happen. Giving a character flaws and conflicts is what gives a character depth and can still be entertaining. It may make people feel uncomfortable depending on what bad acts they do, but that's part of the things with flaws, we know them to be bad and such. And would've killed to see Peter Dinklage to act those out. Ngl, it really felt like he was written to be a Gary Stu by D&D during s4 and onwards.
Also, just found it weird with the "love triangle" between him, Dany, and Jon Snow. Like I could've kinda see it, but wasn't set up much.
Really love seeing these breakdowns on the character both in the books and show.
The more I learn about GOT, the more I'm concerned about the creator. The show is full of incest, rape, murder in very brutal ways. Like who sits around envisioning the details of incest?
Historians for one. Incest had consequences for every culture/nobility that practiced it.
Oh man, watching these videos make me hate the video editors even more than in the final season. "Let's make a show where you can't see ANYTHING." Such a complete mess the last two seasons
0:44 - Did you just say warder (water)!?!!?!? sacrilege.
Oh my god, I feel sick
whats game of frones?
It’s especially unfortunate given that for a long time, Aerys and Tywin were friends
And that there’s a non-zero chance that Tyrion is literally Dany’s brother from another mother
Tyrion's character died along with Tywin in that privy
You can do this with literally every single character bc they D&D fucked up every single character
Not all character. Ned and Bobby B are safe
@@raph3699 lol, ok, any character that made it passed season 4
Cat and Jorah and Theon are far superior in the show than the books, as are Robb, Pod, Meera, Ygritte, you can just go on and on.
@@CrackingCody tbf Robb falling in love with a random nurse felt even less logical than with a noblewoman from the westerlands
@@CrackingCody THEON? No. Absolutely not. You can make the argument for Jorah if your standard for "better" is "more of a good person", but that's not better, that's just _different_ . That's not the point of Jorah's character. Same with Pod, and to an extent Robb.
Too bad they couldn’t hint at the fact the mad king was obsessed with Joanna Lannister…
The dragon has 3 heads
Shae's arch was, to me, written for her to be a spy for Tywin all along but they chickened out and decided to make her the most petty, vindictive bitch ever on screen. I still cannot wrap my head around her betraying a man she loved, condemning him to death, then playing lovey-dovey with him father days later. All for trying to keep her safe. I'm not buying that. She was a plant who was supposed to watch Tyrion and became an false witness when Joffrey was killed. D & D either missed the point or just didn't want to deal with it.
That was the funniest world anvil ad segment you’ve done yet 😂
Book Tyrion and show Tyrion is two completely different people after his trail.. he gets dark as hell
Why did D & D even bring up the Harpy when we never even found out in the end who the Harpy was. UGH!
Honestly, Tyrion doesn‘t need any more reasons to kill Tywin than the ones shown in the show.
1 of the best scenes for jamie was when telling brienee about him slaying the king and all the emotion. Havinf tyrion talk about what happened 2 ANY1 couldve been a powerful scene but they just had him tell dick jokes instead lol
I love the intro
Also Walder Frey did nothing wrong because he actually said, "mayhaps".
People seem to miss this, but it's exactly the point.
The show ruins lots of things. Just today I was continuing my re-watch of the series, season 3 E4, where Joffrey is showing Margaery the spot where Rhaenyra Targaryen is buried and goes on to describe her death. I have Fire and Blood, I was purposely avoiding reading it with HOTD coming to HBO to avoid spoilers and some how GOT has ruined it for me.
The show and book kind of blended in my head. I can see in my memory show Jamie confessing even though it was in the book only.
Great video
Wasn't Tyrion partially responsible for Jaime's daughter's death? Or was that Cersei?
In the book or the show? Because she's not dead in the book. In the show I _guess_ you could say it's Tyrion's fault for sending her to Dorne. But the Sand Snakes' plot is legitimately insane so no reasonable person could have predicted they'd do that.
The issue was they did Tyrion right for the first couple of seasons then after he was sentenced to death he became a dumb drunk....despite being a "deboturous" little genius that was treated terribly by everyone but Jamie throughout the whole books so far.
Debaucherous ?
well, Tyrions journey to Dany cant have been that smooth considering he lost a lot of IQ points on the way
No tysha
I'm surprised this video isn't more popular.
It's a long time since my channel's been popular 😆
@@mylittlethoughttree some of us still appreciate the videos though
When he stopped being Tyrion and started being Peter Dinklage.
The moment that he met Daenerys. The same with Jon Snow.
Are you ever going to do a Daenerys character arc I'm unconvinced that she will not go mad just cause the history of women in ASOIAF especially Targaryen women are treated pretty horribly and to have the last Targaryen woman go mad isn't satisfactory for me
Maybe she won’t go mad, but since Westeros tends to frown on woman in power they will see her as mad. If Aegon does actually take the throne and becomes loved even for a short time it seems like Daenerys removing him from power will look bad. If he is a fake I cannot realistically seeing how Daenerys can prove it to all of Westeros, so it seem like a fake story she made up to justify stealing power from her nephew. She is bringing a foreign army to a xenophobic society already. There are already rumors flying around that paint her in a bad light.
It could be Daenerys doesn’t go mad, but her actions look bad to Westeros and she never wins them over. When the story is over she will be remembered in the same vane as her father or Aegon the Unworthy. While Aegon/Young Griff, who could be a fake, is just remembered as the heroic person who had his life and power stolen by his evil and greedy aunt.
I would say she's going to go mad. But not in the same stupid manner.
I've seen a theory that she doesn't literally go mad, but inadvertently sets off wildfire in a potential siege of KL, becoming a "mad queen" to the people - and eventually sacrifices herself to defeat the others, thus giving her redemption in death. Her true narrative was never meant to take the iron throne (it was not her dream, but viserys'), and i believe she'll realize that before the end.
Looking back Dani's sadism and cruelty was not a new thing. It was foreshadowed since season 1. She just killed off people the audience didn't like.
Her anti slavery stance was a virtue signal and to make her look morally superior. It gave her a motive but she was more cruel than kind.
@somethingclever8916 the girl who specifically requested she see the faces of every innocent child crucified by the masters so as not to become callous to the suffering of the people, does not then turn around and needlessly burn the people alive for shits and giggles after she already won a battle. Nor does the girl who put her "ambitions" on the backburner and decided to stay and rule when her conquered cities turned back to chaos, even locking her dragons up. Please be realistic. Also, a lot of her "ruthlessness" and quotes about burning cities and all that which show defenders like to bring up never took place in the books. Dan&Dave just wanted to do that because they can't write female characters (hence shit like Sansa saying she's glad she got raped or whatever).
remove the music dude
Game of Frones
I've never been more hype to see a train move across some water than hearing you say "but first let's watch a train move across some water"
Anything after half way through season 6 doesnt count.
The most important factor in the ruination of Tyrion is the same as with the rest of the characters: The utter inability of Benioff and Weiss to write dialogue. Shallow people cannot write dialogue for deep characters.
Generally speaking, changing things in an adaptation is perfectly fine as long as you have something interesting in its place. The problem wasn’t the omission of the Tysha reveal; it was that they didn’t succeed at doing anything good in its place.
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Old Tyrion went out when he killed Tywin. I still remember when i watched S5 the first time and immediately thought this Tyrion is off. And it only got worse with him from then on.
And yes, Tyrion was at a crossroad at that point. But D&D went with the lazy approach, because it was such a liked character. So they tried to not make him a villain. That resulted in a boring and sad dick joke robot who is stupid on top.
Instead he should ve been filled with a fierce will for revenge against Cersei and a despise for the people of Kings Landing, because he had all the reasons for that. Such a Tyrion as the Hand of a more and more mad queen Dany would ve made much more sense and kept his character interesting.
And we all know Peter Dinklage would ve nailed a villain Tyrion perfectly. Its really disappointing how this great actor got wasted in the 2nd half of the show...
Yeah, but all the stuff Tyrian does in the books after killing his dad kind of suck.
It's arguably not the most entertaining, but it's certainly consistent for his character and provides interesting exploration. I think his arc in that book would've been better received if it had a proper conclusion that I think was lost when the battle of fire wasn't included
@@mylittlethoughttree if he just disappeared for a book and then showed up with Dany: nothing would have been lost.
@@tyrant-den884 His entire character development would be lost. All of the impact of the weight of the Tysha reveal and his killing of Tywin would have been lost. We would have lost the complicated dynamic he has with Penny, we would have lost the entire Aegon plotline, which Tyrion deliberately derails because he's bored and vindictive. The entire point of his journey in Dance is to show how nihilistic and cruel he has become. He abuses a sex worker, he uses his political acumen to convince Aegon to change his plans and go to Dorne, with the express intention of getting him killed, for no other reason than because he can.
@@bookswithike3256 I did not say to cut out the Tysha reveal and Then kill, I said to cut out the boring as f_ck thank God it wasn't in the show Aegon bullsh-t.
I don't think the Tysha story line is that important, even in the books it seems like it is an added on story line. Things that are ignored from the book is the fact that Tyrion basically orders Bronn to kill the singer, he ends up in a pot of brown. He is already a murderer in King Landing. What is important is that he had to learn humility, he was still an extremely privileged individual, because he was a Lannister, that is what he learns with Penny. He also wasn't as clever as the thought he was, especially against Littlefinger and Varys. He needs to learn a lot of humility, as for example Jon Snow does in the first season and book. He needs to learn to plot better, and he his character does turn darker. Of course in the show it was absolutely ridiculous how he constantly wanted to trust Cersei or he wanted to negotiate with Cersei, if that was just removed it would already have been better. In truth Tyrion's book journey after he murders Tywin is also somewhat problematic. You can see it is a long arc, and something that will not be solved very easily.
I agree with a lot of your points, but I disagree that Tysha wasn't that important. Tysha was a key experience for Tyrion, because it instilled something in him that plagues him deeply for the rest of his life, and that's the idea that he is unlovable.
When he is told Tysha, the first person he had a genuine romantic connection with, was a hired actress playing a role all along, this teaches him that no one could ever genuinely love him for who he is. so he spends the following years living by that assumption, trying to buy happiness by buying whores and wine and fine things, all the while with the painful assumption that that is the closest he will ever get to love. you can tell that feeling haunts him during his wedding night with sansa; sure, he is decent enough to not assault a scared child bride, but his internal dialogue definitely reflects that he is hurt by her repulsion and takes it personally, despite there being very logical reasons sansa wouldn't want to sleep with him regardless of his appearance. it shows that he sort of frames all his interactions with people around the core idea that they must be revolted by his appearance and that no one would ever see past that,
So when Jamie tells him that Tysha was really just a girl who loved him, who saw past his dwarfism, who didn't know he was a Lannister or that he was rich, who just loved HIM, that not only completely destroys his trust in Jamie, the only sibling he had a connection with, but incites the rage that drives him to kill Tywin, because now he finally realizes how thoroughly Tywin has been abusing him this entire time. This is the catalyst that really pushes him closer to going towards a darker path in the future. Tysha may not herself be that important, but the revelation of the truth is definitely integral to Tyrion's future character developement. it completely reshaped his view of the world.
It kind of is super important for Tyrion as Jaime. Jaime from book 1 mentions he finds it interesting he is reviled for an act he’s proud of and loved for an act he never did. Tyrion learning he was loved completely breaks him and in dance asks everyone “where do whores go?”
Tyrion learning one person loved him despite his misshapen body and it wasn’t a lie is important.
Taisha was never a part of the show. People have no emotional connection to her. But they have one for shae. So ut'e actually wise to let the taisha thing go. This obviously works in a book but certainly not in a tv show where the audience connects not with Backstorys but to the protagonists on screen.
I wouldn't say having shae genuinely care about tyrion downplays the idea that his own scheming againts others came to back fire on him during his trial. Mainly because that is what happened when she came to testify against him.
The thumbnail picture makes Tyrion Lannistar look like a Chaos Space Marine.
The death of Tywin made no sense on the show. Tyrion shoots him for calling Shae a whore, and that was her chosen occupation. That's how Tyrion met her, when he was hiring her as his personal whore. Why would he be willing to kill someone for calling her what she was?
Ruined is a bit strong. I absolutely loved Tyrions character! Drinklage played him superbly well. his intelligence and zest for life was fantastically heartwarming. That he went downhill rapidly later one once he got to power, simply made him human! Lots of revolutionaries fail miserably once they end up in power.
The book backstory/ real story makes Tyrion’s trial speech lane even harder. Also having Tyrion joint Danny seeking revenge on Lannisters and Kings landing vsfighting for a better realm, saving the innocents, bla, bla, bla, sounds more GOT.
I think this is a well thought out and fair analysis, however I really did like Tyrion's character and did not want to see him as a villain. To me, he was a lot like Sansa, a pawn who tries to make the best of his situation and he's "bad" only because he has a broken heart and doesn't believe that anyone has or will love him. I think he's more tragic (even though he survived the whole series) than a villain. I think in GOT, there were a few other characters that were more villainous than Tyrion.
I'm still hoping Tyrion and Sansa meet up again, have a laugh about how the last time they saw each other was the best day of their lives, kill Littlefinger and become a real power couple.
Eh, it's only another decade until the next book is out. A man can dream.
In the books he straight up molested her and she was upset by how gruesome it was...
@GoldenRose116 I don't recall that. Can you cite it?
@@timtheskeptic1147
Sansa's reaction to the wedding:
He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. “You have a good heart, my lady,” she said to Sansa. “Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf.”
As for the molestation:
She climbed onto the featherbed, conscious of his stare. A scented beeswax candle burned on the bedside table and rose petals had been strewn between the sheets. She had started to pull up a blanket to cover herself when she heard him say, “No.”
The cold made her shiver, but she obeyed. Her eyes closed, and she waited. After a moment she heard the sound of her husband pulling off his boots, and the rustle of clothing as he undressed himself. When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast, Sansa could not help but shudder. She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next. Would he touch her again? Kiss her? Should she open her legs for him now? She did not know what was expected of her.
“Sansa.” The hand was gone. “Open your eyes.”
She had promised to obey; she opened her eyes. He was sitting by her feet, naked. Where his legs joined, his man’s staff poked up stiff and hard from a thicket of coarse yellow hair, but it was the only thing about him that was straight.
Dani's villain storyline was not a sudden change. She was always blood thirsty and vengeful. She was always challenged by characters the audiences didn't like to being repugnant or worse than her. She was never benevolent or compassionate.
Imagine season 1 one if everyone Cersei killed was a worse person than her.
Someone who was “never benevolent or compassionate” wouldn’t spend the majority of the show worrying about the slaves and small folk of the world.
They wouldn’t put aside their own selfish desires and give all they had to save the seven kingdoms.
You can not like Dany, but she wasn’t the evil monster you want to make her out to be.
You can't just blanently ignore book danys characters contrast and similarities to the show here. Like as early as season 2 , the fkn show dumbed down dany hard amd changed sht that made her seem entitled however she was always someone who is compassionate and cares for the small folk. She embodies hope in the fked up sht show that is the current pace of the books and is a damn good character which will not go batshit insane either.
@@johnivory3245
Yes was smiling when her brother died and the witch was executed like she was having an orgasm. The story would be very different if both those characters were kind and benevolent.
saying you're against slavery is like saying your against gladiatorial death matches or witch burnings. You say a lot and do nothing.
look at current media corporate messaging with "historic slavery bad" but ignore current year condition of starvation wages, forced slavery or forced worked, tech that build its empire off slavery. jewels people wear and batteries were mined by slaves.
This interaction is the product of slaves.
But white liberal saviors looking compassion and virtue signaling while doing evil things is a very real fact.
I think social justice warriors are pure evil.
@@d_1877 buy me the audibles and I'll check out
@@somethingclever8916 there's this thing called a library.
I don’t think the character of Tyrion is ruined at all.
He's far, far better in the books.
"gooD"
They arguably ruined most if not all characters from the books.
@@CharleyGurl- I’m reading ASOIAF now. I’m about 1/3 through GOT and he’s the same as the show…for now. So much of this first book is the same, or very similar, to the show. I know that’s going to change though!
@@carastone3473 He's far more morally grey and complicated. He's just a "good guy" and funny in the show. It's a shame, Peter was great in the trial scenes.
Was shocked to see this pop up in my recommended. I am sick of the finger pointing cry baby's still going on about a show that has been over for a long time. Listen plant your little tree in a place were it can grow..... please think of something that is more important than a TV show.
I take it from that comment you took this video to be some very bitter complaint about the show. It's not, I feel no great wound about the show. I only watched it last year. I am however very curious to try and understand exactly what went wrong when compared to the books. For which I find it interesting to try and see the problems with Tyrion beyond just saying the typical "they made him do dumb things and make too many cock jokes" problems with stories is interesting to me, especially when it's problems with characters
They turned Tyrion into such an idiot in the second half of the show. Like thinking Cersei would actually help them?! Starving King’s Landing and waiting instead of just taking it?! Wanting to fucking save Cersei?! That was bad. And they had him always mess up and say stupid ludicrous things while expecting us to still think he’s brilliant and that Dany should keep listening to him. For all their talk about loving Peter Dinklage and the character, the two hacks completely ruined him
Show Tyrion becoming a dumbass and a weak pacifist is such an insult to GRRM’s favorite character. Like yes he is one of the better Lannisters but he’s still a very gray character and he’s supposed to have his dark side. And after learning that his wife really loved him and his brother and father lied to him it caused him to snap and become much darker. And he would have been advising Dany to be more ruthless instead of being passive and not doing anything
Tyrion is really bad and bland in Essos in both book and show, so idk why you’re acting like the book 5 version of Tyrion is somehow superior lol. There’s a reason why a lot of your videos don’t do well, bud. It’s because you have bad takes. Like you wanting Penny to appear is laughable. Penny is almost universally hated amongst the fandom.
Bland and not particularly entertaining is a fair argument (although I think it's underrated) however to argue it doesn't make sense for his character? That it doesn't provide interesting exploration and is the build up for a very satisfying arc to come? I think it'd have been better received were it given more of a conclusion in the book, instead leaving the battle of fire and other aspects still to happen, it feels a bit wayward in its ending, however "interesting narrative" and "fitting character" are two different things. This video focuses on the second for which, yeah I think Penny serves an important role. Doesn't bother me if people dislike her. Loads dislike Catelyn and Sansa and I think they're wrong to do so although my interest is always more in understanding characters, so that would make sense for me.
Season 5 Tyrion is a drunken dude who thinks he has no purpose to live. On the contrary, in ADWD he is filled with vengeance for his family, even for Jaime. I wouldn't go as far a s to say that Tyrion wouldn't have a problem seeing his family being roasted alive by dragonfire...
Not like we're going to get the 2 final books any way. So, it doesn't really matter how much better everybody's story arcs are in the books, the show at least ended those character arcs and the books will probably never have any kind of conclusion good, bad or otherwise bar fanfiction.
@@slipstreamxr3763 I wouldn't exactly commend the show simply for ending
calm down man, why so pissed 😂