Actually Tyrion very clearly DOES realize in the book that Shae doesn't really love him. He mentions it several times. He just willingly goes in denial.
I'm not sure if it's as clear-cut. He does seem to entertain that possibility and you can certainly read their relationship as that. I think it's a bit more nuanced, and left to readers' interpretation. Personally I think Shae is fond of him at least in some capacity, but she's a practical person more concerned with her own survival. It wouldn't matter to her how much she loved Tyrion. She'd still ditch him in order to save her own skin because that's the reality she's always known. Remember she is much younger in the books.
Tyrion was a piece of human garbage from book one and it's not hard to figured out why he is the way he is however that does not change that he is still the way he is. And the subsequent events he was a part of merely caused him to show his wickedness more and more. I hope when Daenerys meets him in the books she burns him alive and be done with it, that would be one less vermin she has to deal with in the future.
@@damianallen8377 What she needs to do is remove his toungue before he could talk to her into taking terrible descisions....but honestly i don't think things would be easy for tyrion in meeren,remember that Barristan is there and he will advice her against the half..but perhaps barristan dies before dany comes back to city...also it would ve great to read the interactions between Tyrion Barristan and Victarion
Damian Allen you do realise your talking about Game of Thrones, right? It would make no sense for Daenerys to “burn Tyrion alive”. He is extremely smart and has lots of inside knowledge regarding her enemies. It wouldn’t help her at all. Also why would Tyrion tell Daenerys about his crimes?
I think Peter Dinklage being fairly handsome partly ruins his character. People aren't immediately revolted by Tyrion in the show but in the books he is disgusting.
@@MacabreStorytelling all he's ever mocked for in the show is basically being short, but his creepy mismatched eyes, stringy hair, massive head, and lack of nose caused people to despise him for his entire life. He's sociable in the show, but in the books it feels like most people are just trying to avoid him or avert their eyes. Book Tyrion had it way worse. Then again, he doesn't really become evil in the show so him being scorned by literally everyone isn't really necessary.
And it's funny because one of the mid-season episodes (the one where future Master of Coin Bronn has to be explained what interest on a debt is and refuses to ever do it and the one where Pod is revealed to have a magic penis) is written by George RR Martin himself. In the scene with Bronn and Tyrion where they discuss interest and Littlefinger's money laundering, Bronn brings up Tysha again for the first time in two seasons. Martin WANTED her to be remembered by both D&D and the viewers.
It also screws up Jaime’s arc, because the news of Cersei’s infidelity caused Jaime to question his relationship with her, and the path he’s taken in life.
This confession changes both characters arcs. Jamie finally starts to open his eyes to what Cerci is, and how she controls him, and Others, with sex. I can't wait for Winds of Winter. I want the Real story. Not the hbo, watered down story.
Hardly no one mentions that Bran Stark AKA 3eyed Raven was a master manipulator. It was Bran that revealed that Jon Snow was the legitimate air to the Iron Thorne. From that moment it change the trajectory of events. On the surface, Bran seemed sincere and well meaning. However, in the books there was a question about Tyrion's true paternity. Tyrion was born with silver-white hair and one violet colored eye. Also, The Mad King was obsessed with his mother Joanna Lannister. Bran would've been the only one who knew for sure. Like Jon Snow telling Tyrion that he was a Targaryen and not a Lannister wouldn't have changed any major outcomes of battles. However, it would have explained Tywin's complete rejection of him and his unexplained strong connection with Daenerys. Knowing this may have changed his prospective about her towards the end. Remember, it was Tyrion that warned Jon Snow about her dangerous potential. It was Bran AKA 3eyed Raven that choose not to reveal Tyrion was the 3rd Dragon (theoretically). The only part of season 8 that needs rewriting is our knowledge that Bran's knew about Tyrion's true origin but choose not to reveal it. It's "Game of Thrones" not Game of Fairness. What would've made sense to us as the audience (Usual Suspects moment) that Bran AKA all knowing, all seeing, handy capable 3eyed Raven was ,"in it to win it", and released just enough information to make himself King (Lil'Finger style). I believe that's wear the writers let us as the audience down. Finally, by making the 3eyed Raven King doesnt it make him/it King for eternity? Please correct me if I'm wrong. The 3eyed Raven doesn't die it just moves to a new body?
@@Mordante69 People say wonderful things about Rhaegar, but they never say what is actually so wonderful about him. He always seems off to me. Aloof and weird. He wins tourney's easily, but was that due to skill...or the fact that he was the heir to the Iron Throne? He only ever fought in one battle, and he was easily killed. He seems to have not only humiliated his wife at the Harrenhal tourney, but abandoned her and their children altogether. He also seems to have had no interest in doing anything, or complaining about the abuse his mother suffered at the hands of his father. I don't get the Rhaegar praise at all. It seems...empty.
@@Mordante69 I don't think they did get it right at all. It's obvious to me, from reading the books, that Jon is Ned Stark's son. If Lyanna did have a child, I think it was Young Griff. I doubt GRRM would allow one of the biggest secrets of his books be revealed on the show before the books.
The Tysha confession was one of the most jawdropping and heartbreaking reveals in the book. It would've been perfect drama material and it would've taken them less than 2 minutes. They're truly fools for leaving it out
Damn, after watching the series I really felt that they wasted the opportunity. Peter Dinklage is one hell of an actor and I feel that we were really robbed of seeing his performance portraying the vengeful, hateful, and spiteful Tyrion. That would have saved entire seasons and it would have been a true redemption of his arc especially in the final season where he learned that vengeance is empty.
@@oliviawilliams6204 It's what probably will happen in the books. Tyrion pushes Dany too far and then, as contrary to what happens in the show, he himself will wanto to be Hand again to fix his mistake.
@@xdz1039 Yeah that's my theory too, and i also expect Euron to steal one of Dany dragon. And think also to have Young Griff already conquering part of Westeros with the Golden Company and Dorne behind her back will be factors too
Olivia Williams yeah I think Aegon will be on the Iron Throne by the time Dany gets there. He will probably be married to Arianne. After Qynten’s death, Dorne will probably not back Daenerys, thinking she’s the mad queen and that she burned him (even though she had nothing to do with it). Highgarden will also probably support Aegon. So Dany won’t have that big of an advantage coming into this war as she did in the show with Dorne, the Stormlands and the Reach supporting Aegon. She will be landing at Westeros with the foreign Unsullied, the savage Dothraki, and the most hated house in Westeros the Greyjoy’s. Her HotU prophecy showed her a swaying cloth dragon with a cheering crowd, which seems to me that it represents how Aegon will be perceived by the common people - he will be loved. Which sets up a much more interesting conflict as it didn’t make sense in the show why the common people wouldn’t want Cersei dethroned in favor of Daenerys. Aerys wasn’t even hated by the common people. He was remembered quite fondly by most of them. So it’s not because of who her father is that she didn’t get their support. I also don’t know if Dany will go full mad queen in the books though compared to the show. The show likes to amp everything up to make it more shocking. The red wedding is a good example as it was actually worse in the show then the books with Talisa. I do think she will be very morally grey when it comes to burning Kings Landing and it could be partly accidental (wildfire). But it will happen and the perception will be that she’s the mad queen. It’s very reminiscent of the first Dance of Dragons. Rhaenyra isn’t remembered fondly in the history of Westeros and George did make it a point to point out that in Fire and Blood it is written from a biased POV. It makes me think a similar view is going to happen to Dany from the people of Westeros that will help push the Mad Queen viewpoint of her.
@@oliviawilliams6204 That would have been awesome. Tyrion driving her into corruption only to realise the horror of what he's done, too late to stop her.
Especially since we have seen Peter D narrate parts of a recent audio book. Also I could see a good amount of actors from the show doing the book, since lots of them were low key frustrated with the show.
If GRRM wanted 10 seasons, he should have written more books instead of picking cheetos out of his beard or whatever he was doing instead of writing books. Any issues about GoT ending is squarely on one writer -- GRRM. No one else.
@@boredom2go A Feast For Crows and A Dance with Dragons has enough material to cover more seasons. Thing is D & D only took like 10% elements in them and butchered them in the show. >Any issues about GoT ending is squarely on one writer -- GRRM. No one else. What a laughable statement. Almost every single plot thread from Season 5 and onwards was D & D. It was them who chose to put Jeyne Poole's Arc to Sansa. It was their choice to not include Arianne and Faegon. It was their choice to combine Victarion to Euron's character resulting into a laughable villain. Had they actually adapted those books, the plot threads to reach many of the highlight events would have been much easier and better than the one we got. Remember, HBO begged D & D to do more seasons so AFFC and ADWD can be reasonably adapted but no, they decided they were done the moment they got their star wars trilogy.
@@RedgraveGilver How long were they supposed to wait for this clown to finish the series? If the author himself has no interest in getting to the point, why should anyone else bother with dedicating their lives to the damned thing? These actors and directors have other things they want to do. Fuck GRRM and his epic procrastination.
@@boredom2go If you think a book can be written quickly, then please do go ahead and do so. As someone who has actually done some writing, I can promise you that it takes much, MUCH longer than you think. Especially if you want a decent result.
@@Renesh2 It's been 8 years. Eight. Years. He's going to keel over before he finishes the damned series. Given the worldwide cultural phenomenon the book series and TV series became, you'd think he'd step on the gas a little. Quite the opposite.
Jon is one of the characters that suffers the most from D&D writing. Their need to draw parallels between him and Ned Stark and most importantly the dumbing down to make Sansa seem smart completely ruined his character to me.
@@wizardsummoner9124 Jon Snow, in the books, is the closest thing the series has to a hero, but his journey is not one of a hero. He is extremely intelligent; the book even takes time to point out Catelyn's annoyance at Jon outshining his brothers when it comes to matters of education. He sets up green houses to help maintain a bread line, he successfully negotiates with the bank to maintain an inflow of supplies, when he rescues the Wildlings he has them inhabit empty farmland, and has them help Stannis. Jon uses Stannis to fight proxy wars. Jon also has autopsies performed to confirm his suspicions of the White Walkers being like zombies. Jon can be ruthless at times. I think in general the show runners felt that audience would need someone unambiguously heroic. That is why I think there was such a huge shift in his personality. Sansa is very intelligent, not at all slow. She has absolutely no experience as an administrator, she would become an excellent administrator with time if ever offered the opportunity. She is stunningly naieve, even after Geoffrey. In the books she is still Ramsey's prisoner and has not had time to grow. I can easily see George RR Martin's character arc for Sansa being one where she grows into an excellent leader; in the books it has been hinted at, and on the show they ironically forget the rule of show don't tell. Jon being a natural prodigy at warging was never mentioned on the show. I think that was so Bran's moments could feel more unique.
Have to love how they completely stripped Tyrion of all moral complexity and whitewashed him into another generic good guy in the final season. The same can be said of Arya, who was literally part of a death worshiping cult and took great pleasure in revenge, suddenly getting cold feet at the end. After season 7, arguably season 6, there are no more complex characters. They are either MUAHAHAA EVIL or good guys suddenly afraid of bloodshed.
Arya:(Stabs out a mans eyes, feeds an old man his sons in a pie before slitting his throat and poisons an entire family in revenge.) Sandor:"Don't kill Cersei." Arya:"Okay." (Me: "WHAT?!!!!")
@@phousefilms yeah,but ibeleived the books would follow the same path,arya abandoning her quest for revenge,just instead of being with sandor,will be with lady stoneheart
ltshep Which would have begun with his look he gave when she started burning people. That haunting realisation of what he contributed to her madness out of his blind hate for the family, and everyone he saved. If GoT had those extra 2-5 seasons? The Tysha storyline could gone somewhere. We definitely need a re-write from season 7 when material ran out. 😭
@@JuICyBLiinGeR "I wish I had enough poison for the whole pack of you, I would GLADLY give my life to watch you all SWALLOW IT!" *DRACARYS* *Oh gods, what have I done* Tragedy. Irony. Poignancy. THE FUCKING GREEKS HAD THIS SHIT FIGURED OUT 2000 YEARS AGO, WHAT HAPPENED?!
I thought you were gonna touch more upon Jaime. If leaving out the Tysha reveal ruins Tyrion’s character arc, it absolutely DESTROYS Jaime’s Character arc. One of my favourite scenes from the books is when Jaime recieves Cercei’s letter pleading for his help against the High Sparrow, and he simply tears it apart and burns it in the fireplace, finally cutting himself off of Cerceis influence. That scene never could have happened without the Tysha reveal, and the series completely botched Jaime’s arc by having him return to save Cercei from Daenerys and dying together with her.
I know right! I can't believe how accurate this video is 8 months before season 8! It explains why the show has felt like it has been missing something since season 4. Tyrion is GRRM's favorite character, it's no wonder he checked out after season 4 too.
By leaving out this deep seated teen betrayal, the depth of his character development was always missing the true “WHY”⁉️. That extremely cruel betrayal ... even by his own brother (whom he loved most of all till Tysha) ... it was so deeply heartbreaking. Peter Dinklage portrayed Tyrion so well ... then the last 2 seasons it seemed like “what happened”?? His sharp wit, his intelligence, his inner strength was “Where ?”. He had only what was written for him and it was lacking.
God damn this makes the exchange between Tyrion and his father at Tyrion's trial hit so much harder. "I'm guilty of being a dwarf." "You are not on trial for being a dwarf." "I've been on trial for that My. Entire. Life!"
Yeah. In the books, Tyrion outright told Jaime that he killed Joffrey and Cersei was sleeping with everyone including the fool. That was the depth of his rage. Tyrion had always been hated by everyone because his status as a dwarf made him abominable. And even in his own family, the only person that showed him any love was his brother. The only other person could have been his mother, but he killed her by being born. It's a tragic story. The truth about Tysha caused him to lose his brother and thus everything.
There is also an adventurous uncle that Tyrion likes but he isn't in the show and not around him as much as his brother. Mycela and Tommon do also like Tyrion (but might not anymore if they believe he murdered their brother).
@@Faifainei but it still doesn't mean they didn't have positive influence on him. But yes his brother was the highest one of them all so make sense that betrayal puts him into rage/hate mode.
I think everything can be explained by saying the writers wanted to keep Tyrion likable. They also excised Dany's faults for the same reason. If their faults and the crimes they committed had been kept in tact, the final season still would have been a whiplash in characterization, but at least it would have been less so.
Daenerys isn't really likable though. She's hot. When I first watched GoT I couldn't wait for every episode, but every single time that Daenerys showed up after season 1 I rolled my eyes, and was like "get on with it!"
TBF Tyrion was still a great, compelling, and complex character in the first 4 seasons. He only went downhill in season 5 cause they didn’t know what to do with him. I haven’t read the books, but Daenerys was never really very compelling for me. She’s too disconnected from the other plot lines and her stories get far too repetitive. Along with being less engaging, her not changing after season 1, and being one of the few characters you never feel is at major risk.
@@noahmclaughlin7921 she’s very interesting in the books I think. She’s used as a plot device in a way while still being a compelling character. She’s basically this storm that is slowly brewing and being hinted at in Westeros, the people hearing subtle reports of dragons, then a Targaryen queen, all happening on the other side of the world. It’s much the same as far as plot lines go, at least until the show passes the books, but it’s done much more effectively. Also, Dany is meant to be a strange larger than life character. She’s not my favorite, but she’s undeniably interesting, seeing visions of the future and having the slightest tint of madness. The slow burn (no pun intended) of her dragons slowly turning from essentially flying cats, to dévastons monsters akin to a nuclear bomb in got world is done so well too
@@noahmclaughlin7921 the show also largely excludes her main arc, which is her constant search for home. All through the books she mentions and dreams about “a red door” which is a memory of her childhood, living in a house with a loyal knight who died when she was young. She lived there until she was about 5, then was kicked to the streets when her friendly knight died. It was the only home she knew, and viserys telling her of Westeros turns it into this idyllic paradise in her mind, which is her real reasons for wanting to go there. Deep down I don’t think she cares about the crown or power, it’s a means to an end. I believe that when she finally reaches Westeros and spends some time there in the books, she will realize that this place is really no different from any place in Essos she’s been, and will have some understanding of what home really is and either decide to end her war due to its unnecessary devastation, or just go batshit crazy, but it will actually make sense
Mostly agree, though I particularly loathed - in general - Tyrion caring about Cersei again. Only Tommen and Myrcella deserve his care - and Jaime could earn it back. But the point of Cersei is that she can't be redeemed; and what care Tyrion has for his family, should make Cersei's actions even more unforgiveable to Tyrion. Any redemption would involve him coming to recognize that Tommen, Myrcella and Jaime were victims of Tywin and Cersei's manipulations, just like he himself was. But, show writers made a mess of that, just a they made Jaime's arc a complete worthless mess.
@Maester Gryphon I feel like that argument falls apart the moment she blows up the Sept, granted she hasn't done that in the books. Still, the lack of any real conflict over that in the show is mystifying to me. That should've been the moment Jamie realized he killed the Mad King for trying to do basically the same thing.
Tyrion going over the edge would’ve made the Dany storyline even more powerful. That scene where Dany gives him the Hand pin and he says “I BELIEVE in YOU” would have been so much stronger if we’d seen him become a bad person, only to be pulled back by Dany, only to watch Dany spiral out of control.
Or perhaps even darker would be if Tyrion delighted in teaming up with Dany to get complete revenge, even remaining with her after she becomes morally repugnant. If Jamie represents GRRM taking a villainous character we despise and turning him into a redeemed character we adore he could do the opposite with Tyrion, turning a character we loved into a revenge filled spiteful imp allied with a power mad Targaryan queen. Sure we could say Tyrion is too smart and nice to turn bad but you could also say that smart doesn't always mean good and that Tyrion has very few reasons to be nice after what people he trusted have done to him.
Stop it! I hate thinking how some people out there could've written this show so much better unfortunately I no longer care to consume this story in a live action narrative just give me the books and move on...
In the book Tyrion, in anger, says to Jaime that Cersei has been sleeping with many other men. In consequence this damages Jaime's arc as well because he never learns in the show and by the end of A Feast For Crows he's abandoned her, finally realising she's nothing but a whore. But in the show he keeps coming back and forth to Cersei, even when she blows up the sept. It's a double sided coin omitting both confessions.
“She’s nothing but a whore” even ignoring how misogynistic this statement is, you’re completely missing the point of Cersei’s character if you think she’s “nothing but a whore”. Jamie doesn’t turn his back on Cersei because she’s a “whore”, it’s because he finally realises how she’s cunning, cruel, ruthless and manipulative, and how uses “love”/sex as a weapon to control him. She’s an amazingly written villain, to see someone diminish her character to just being “a whore” is sad, because simply being a “whore” doesn’t make a woman a villain.
The two biggest mistakes made by the writers were probably: 1 - No Tysha confession (ruined both Tyrion and Jaime), 2 - Having Littlefinger give away Sansa to Ramsay.
Nah the biggest mistake was “ D:so we finished season 5, and it was pretty damn good, not as good as 4 but they can’t all be season 4 &D: yeah but we are running out of book material to adapt maybe we should hang back maybe allow some more involvement by George, just to have some more to work on you know? D:.... &D:.... D&D: lol fuck no, this thing prints money just pay some interns to eat some letter spaghetti and have them vomit onto the script, we can adapt that “ I’m 99% sure this is accurate to the letter
@@AverageAwesomeDude lol they could've easily done 8 seasons without needing GRRM to finish, but they cut so much even early when the show was still good, then they got a whiff of lucasfilm and Disney money and absolutely shot their load trying to finish it as quickly as possible, then lost the contract because seasons 7 but especially 8 were written I'm assuming how you described lol and obviously nothing they've shown Netflix since has been much as they've pretty much disappeared after proving they're a couple of hacks
I didn’t read the books so I always thought that Tyrion's reaction against his father a bit extreme, specially considering that he probably suffered a lot before and did nothing But this whole thing with Tysha changes so much. It makes Tywin’s death much heavier and emotional, and Jaime’s relationship with Tyrion becomes much more interesting without sacrificing the bromance, the big difference now is that, instead of having just Jaime learning how to forgive Tyrion, we have them both learning to forgive each other and themselves for the things they did. And their eventual reconciliation would be so much more touching and meaningful. Truly a shame all this potential for storytelling was thrown out the window
I don't agree. I think his actions made sense in the show and in the books. His father treated him that way his entire life but it was only at that point when he had tried to discard Tyrion, and essentially remove him from the family. Also Tywin had pulled the thing with the whore twice in Tyrion's life. The first was the most traumatising event in Tyrion's life and the second Tyrion killed Tywin for it. It does make sense. I will say that the book version sets up Tyrion's future character arc to be more interesting I just disagree that what happened in the show was illogical. It was probably the last logical thing that D and D wrote for the rest of the show.
i5m1thy I don’t think it’s illogical in the show either. But Tyrion was just released by his brother and simply grateful for it in the show and proceeds to kill his father knowing full well the repercussions his actions could have for his only friend in the world. It’s not that the tv show version doesn’t make sense, but the book version makes *more* sense in comparison. The show isn’t bad at all, but with the context the book gives us the scene could have been much more powerful than it was
Did you not listen to the video? He said in the books they never reveal what Tywin does to Tysha. In the show is where we learn all the Lannister soldiers took turns on Tysha and then Tywin went last.
@@rileydinkleman1022 Watch again friend, I think you misunderstood something. In the books Tyrion tells Bronn and Shae the story but he tells them separately. Also in the books Tyrion was forced to take part in the gang-rape by Tywin. It is not implied that Tywin took part in either version.
I could never understand why they left Jamie's confession about Tysha out of the HBO story. it was just so easy to include and added so much depth to Tyrion.
It's simple, tyrion is the fan favourite and d&d are too wishy washy to ever dare darken their perfect boy, so they just keep him exactly as he is so Peter Dinklage can continue to drink and know things for the entertainment of the masses
@@lunac6094 This makes no sense. He killed his father for no apparent reason. Without this story component his reason for killing his father is ultra flimsy. With this story component his reason is deep and meaningful.
@@lunac6094 exactly that’s simply what they want you to think. Tywin is the villain even in his last moments and Tyrion is the oh so heroic character just getting his just desserts for all the crimes committed against him. And of course this works so well because they are able to persuade a large part of the audience into agreeing with this notion
@@chrisbiro1 he killed for a very common reason lmao. Shae betrayed him and tywin slept with her. Another betrayal. But yeah the book reasons are far faaaaar better.
@@simonpaulchristian3100Many had figured out this show was becoming shit after season 4 but most people are ok with it as long as their favourite character is alive.
The omission of the Tysha confession was the first time GoT disappointed me. I was all set and looking forward to the drama and horror of Tyrion's realisation, the true shattering of the Lannisters, and then... nothing. They parted ways as buddies and all was well between Jaime and Cersei. That episode also gave us the lackluster version of the Children, though they did improve in the next season. Still, the end of season 4 feels like the point where the series went downhill, slowly but surely. I do get the writers, though. It's hard to write for a depressed and frankly unlikable character, and Tyrion was a major moneymaker. I get they wanted to keep his winning personality intact. It's just such a waste of potential, and it did show in how static he became, as you say. He didn't change, so he just petered out. You absolutely called season 8, spot on.
Stoneheart too! They killed all possibilities of a few more great seasons. They didn't need the last two books. The 5 published ones had enough to end the story beautifully. Instead of the rubbish that was S8. Went downhill after S4 though, the TV series.
^ yep! the problem isn’t that they ran out of book material, it’s that they deliberately discarded and changed large parts of the books. cutting the tysha reveal, f!aegon and jon con, stoneheart, jeyne poole, arianne, etc and merging their storylines into other characters’ had drastic effects on the show.
ARCtrooperblueleader Yes, but too much of something can be bad. I felt that there’s too much gray characters now or justified or sympathetic villains. It’s good and all, but too much of it nowadays in books and movies resulted into one or two things. One is that we justified these villains. We justified that their plans to evil is a collaboration of all factors affecting their lives. It shows that humans are slaves of our environment. Is that really a story we want to make? For example, a thief can justify his thievery because of poor socio-economic status. Yet that would mean that all thieves are pretty much justifiable because they’re broke. Nor does it do justice to those who were poor yet are successful today. We are the masters of our own destinies. Also, where would be a sense of justice then if we treat villains as victims of their own delusion? Second, people would be making grey characters just for the sake of being grey. That’s not enough to just make a good tale. A grey character is good because they relate to us as normal broken humans. But a good character morally is meant to inspire our broken nature to be better. We don’t need to be broken anymore, but rather has a higher purpose. But you can’t really be both. After all, you can’t be the light while being in the darkness. I already seen it in the comics. How come moral superheroes with their message of truth and justice are willing to ally themselves with these dark anti-heroes that has no qualms with killing? After all, the law doesn’t say that “you can’t kill a man unless he is evil”. It just says that murder of any kind is forbidden (safe for self-defense, but that’s another story).
Pure good or bad characters are only a bad thing if their views are presented as good or are never challenged. It's bullshit to say they're inherently unrealistic or not entertaining because it comes down to how one writes them.
The only thing I have with this video is that idea that Tyrion is going to mis-assess Dany when they meet in the books. Tyrion's brains have not gone anywhere, despite his going to the dark side. I think he's going to see her come back to Meereen at the head of a Dothraki army with a dragon she barely controls, but no longer gives a damn about collateral damage from Drogon running wild, and Tyrion's going to understand her and her situation perfectly AND HE'S NOT GOING TO CARE. He's going to say "Yes, this is the perfect weapon to turn against Westeros and my family!" He's going to WANT the Mad Queen, because he wants another Aerys to cause Jaime & Cersei pain and destroy them. He might not have enough poison for all of the city and the court of the Iron Throne, but Dany is going to have enough dragon fire to wipe them all out. George Martin said the most interesting stories, the ones he wants to tell are, quoting Faulkner, about the human heart at war with itself. That's what the characters' stories are about. Jon fighting with his duty and the people he cares about. Jon's heritage is not about who the "rightful" king really is (after all, Aerys was the rightful king and he was the worst), it's about what it meant for NED. Ned had to tarnish all kinds of relationships with a lie to protect his nephew from the fate of Rhaegar's other children, to keep Robert from sending assassins like he did for Dany & her unborn child, and this informs his actions that lead to his downfall, namely, that he cannot allow children to be murdered for politics. Cat has to struggle between her love for her kids and her role defined by society. The girls & Bran have to struggle with their identities and survival, Jaime has to deal with the reality of the kind of person he is, and what his horrible family is really like and what they've done. And Dany has to deal with her own worst instincts, combined with her idealism. This is not a problem for Jon or Tyrion to deal with, it is for DANY to overcome. Jaime had to hit rock bottom, he tried to murder a child for his lover and sitting in chains and having people treat him like a worthless piece of crap, and having a person who believes in knighthood the way he did as a boy treat him like a total failure & betrayal of his boyhood ideals, this made his reconsider himself and his relationships with his family and start trying to be better. To start reaching out to people in whom he saw his more idealistic younger self, like Brienne & Loras. Theon had to hit rock bottom. He had to get from thinking he was hot shit & entitled to everything because he was his father's only son & heir, from thinking that he was special. He learned this by completely failing in his efforts to both prove himself to his father, and claim a place in Winterfell by taking it on his own, and then having his identity stripped from him and ground down into nothing, before compassion for someone else help him reclaim his name and act to save her. Dany is going to have to hit her rock bottom in order to figure out who she is and how to be better. I think she's going to carelessly throw dragonfire around in Kings Landing (with Tyrion's encouragement) & touch off all the wildfire bombs left behind by her father, the Mad King. It will be Dany "completing" the job her father began and make her question the price of "fire and blood". It will horrify Tyrion & make him realize he did not want a mass slaughter after all. It will destroy Jaime whose pride allowed him to shrug off people's judgment of his murder of the Mad King, because now that murder will be all for nothing, the city burned and innocents died of his wildfire. And it will be because Jaime got all butthurt at people judging him, so he decided "Screw you all, I'm NOT going to explain myself or justify my actions, what right do YOU have to judge ME?" Except if he HAD explained, then people would have known to dig up the wildfire! The city would not have suffered as much as it did from Dany's dragon fire, if Jaime had just told someone, rather than sulk that they called him "Kingslayer" without knowing why. THAT is a plot point that serves three characters' story, and their development and their internal struggles. And it gives motivation for Dany to try to make things right, by saving the world from the armies of Winter and the dead. It gives motivation for Jaime to go north, alone if necessary, to fight for the living, because that's all he can do. It gives motivation for Tyrion to contribute to the final battle, instead of sitting back and laughing while the dead overrun the kingdom that has treated him so shabbily. The "Mad Queen" issue should be Dany's issue and Dany's problem to solve, not Jon's and not Tyrion's or Varys' or Sansa's.
Dany started life on the down side. She's been low. I don't want her to be snow white & sentimental just because she's a woman. She's powerful now. She doesn't need to seek others approval they will now seek hers. The show had her asking for approval & wanting to be liked. Sorry,lmao that's not a problem of the powerful. I don't want her to care about pleasing people or having the moral approval of Jo Blow. Absolute rulers don't care about that foolishness. Why should she have to care just because she's a woman she needs to be approved? None of that foolishness. Most people aren't going to talk bad about a powerful person to their face. When you have power, people line up to kiss your butt for what they can get. The series couldn't write reasonably about power because they don't have it or know anybody with it and don't understand it or study it. Power isn't evil. Its the ability to get things done to make things happen. The notion of Varys getting hysterical & turning was ridiculous. Varys never proved why he had any worth. What was his support supposed to do for Dany? He brought nothing to the table.
@@ctruth6185 There's a difference between being moral and being excessively sentimental. "Down" doesn't just mean status & position, it also means moral or emotional well-being. And part of why Dany was struggling in the last book was that she forgot she has the power. She didn't want to use her power, because she didn't like hurting people, so she made compromise after compromise rather than exert her power and put down the slavers for good and all. But power does not guarantee it will be used well, and trying to do the right thing is not becoming a simpering Disney princess. Dany has always cared about people, that's why she started her anti-slavery campaign. Going to the dark side and coming back is not about pleasing other people, it is about being the best she can be for her own sake. Power is the ability to get things done, and Dany's power is magical and otherworldly. She has that power so she can get things done in the magical plot - saving the world from ice demons and their zombie army. Not so she can try some freshman poli-sci nonsense like "breaking the wheel."
Nández english, dumbass. Do you see anyone on this thread speaking Spanish? Youre not adding anything to the discussion. In fact, you’re just hindering it, making me point out how stupid it is to reply to an English discussion in a foreign language. And youre a bigot; you see Latino last names and assume they know Spanish; youre disgusting, you bigot.
The books seem to be aiming for Barriston Selmy to be the voice of reason and Tyrion to be the voice of rage. Omitting Tysha in the show allowed Tyrion to take Selmys spot...totally agree it ruins Tyrion’s arc
Fully agreed. I don't think he is set to being a good influence on her at all. If Dany sucumbs to her violent tendencies, Tyrion will have encouraged her down that path.
Adam Yup sadder since the actor who played Barristan selmy was so good and played voice of reason really well also the actor was actually really excited for season 5 cause he thought there would be more essos scenes....... yeah funny how that turned out
Wow. I was totally unaware of that Tysha storyline. That would have been so much better for the long-term story in the show if they had kept it in. It kind of bums me out to know what else we missed out on. Great video!
They essentially took out his entire arc after he murders his father. He's the one who is becoming increasingly bitter and violence-minded. It's such a weird stretch to portray him as the one trying to "save" Daenerys from her violent instincts. It's likely that he'll be the devil on her shoulder who's pushing her to be violent.
This was the moment game of thrones became fan fiction. The first time I really questioned the writers. They kind if held it together and we forgot, but it could never be great again.
@Yowatsapp 05 So what? I never watched the show, I only read the books, and he's likeable character despite his flaws. There is a reason why he has more chapters than everyone else.
"...one of the reasons they did this is because they didn't want to kill the bromance between Tyrion and Jamie." Damn that's actually prophetic after seeing the shitshow that was the final season. Hit the nail right one the head
@@goodjoejoe D&D and GRRM need to stop acting like the answer to who's Jon's real parents are is hard. It's pretty obvious, and anyone who's ever looked up fan theories on ASOIAF would know it. Knowing it in no way made D&D special, even before GoT went into production.
Started way earlier, but people like big moments like the BoB or blowing up the Sept so continued to encourage the show as it got worse, leaving us with seasons 7&8.
@Thomas Dixon Jr. I think most people saw it, but were probably hoping/thinking it was going somewhere. However, Season 8 was so bad that there was no way of beating around the bush when it came to character development, or lack thereof, and because of that, it gets all the flak.
@@MasterChief0522 It is not that easy to see actually. It was only after season 6 that you could really tell characters are starting to get ruined. In season 5 all the characters still seem very believable and they do nothing out of their characters (ok tyrion gets worse for "some" reason but thats it). It is only after reading feast and dance I realised how much omitting all the character developments actually matters and now more then ever since the huge disaster that was season 8. Tyrion not becomming so bitter and dark. This also destroys the point of his journey where he struggles to get back up untill he meets Penny. Jaimie not questioning cersei and becomming a better person. Jon not making horrible mistakes to be killed as a result of it Dany not sacrificing everything for the peace in meereen. This is probably one of the biggest mistake since she reconsidered her approach as a result of it and decided to be more Targaryen in the future and embraced fire and blood. Quite hard to guess to what extend this will be untill we get winds of winter. And Cersei not being punished for her own mistakes. And this is actually the reason why the characters in season 7 and 8 were so bad. They severely altered the direction their characters were taking but kept the original ending. This left people like Varys, Dany, Tyrion or Jaimie feel uterly stupid and out of character. This and the absence of fAegon
Tyrion being "triggered" by Tywin calling Shae a whore never made sense to me given that he killed her minutes ago. yes he says he is sorry but come on ... the sense of betrayal was too raw and fresh to have him cry like that. it doesn't make sense. on the trial, he wasn't heartbroken and soft. I was heartbroken and enraged. a rage that should not have allowed for Tywin insult of Shae to affect him in any significant way. funny how the writers go out of their way to keep the portrayal of the characters they like positive. Dany was obviously a favorite of them as well.
Add to that his murder of Shae in the books is cold blooded and from pain and betrayal when he finds her in Tywins bed(which is never mentioned again in the show, as I recall)and absolutely being broken and the show made it "self defence"to make Tyrion remain "likeable" and it adds to the failure of the scene to have any kind of emotion. My friend(who I made read the books before season 3 came out)actually laughed out loud when Tyrion strangled her and went "I'm sorry...."in the show.
I agree, Tyrion murdering his father was not well justified in the TV series, and it is well justified in the book by this confession. To learn that you were wronged far worse than you thought can serve as a justification for such a sudden change in attitude.
I think people don't realize that Dave and Dan didn't just "get lazy" They were hacks right from the start. They did write some really good material that wasn't in the books such as the Tywin and Arya moments and the convo between Robert and Cersei but the truth is they're just shitty writers who occasionally get lucky
I'm not a fan of those moments. Tywin and Arya was only made to show off the actors, and is inferior to Arya's journey through the war torn riverlands. And D&D's "humanization" of Cersei showed me that they missed the point of her character. They did write some good original scenes though such as Tywin's establishing character moment, Jon and Ned's goodbye, Robert's war stories, and Catelyn finding out about ned's death.
Those are easy scenes to make as they have no significance to the plot. People praise them for those scenes but don't realize it's incredibly easy to make scenes when what is said or done is irrelevant to the rest of the plot. Normally scenes/chapters will branch the story, branches that spawn new branches and eventually must all get to a single point. Filler scenes don't have this problem. People are also more forgiving in the scenes because they are interesting. Like why would Tywin not be suspicious of Arya, I am pretty sure he knew by that time that she had escaped. Why would someone as ruthless as Tywin not have everyone executed after someone was assassinated right in front of him?
After omitting the Tysha confession Tyrion was dumbed down to the point where he just became that character that constantly made dick jokes. He didn't have one successful plan and was a terrible adviser for Dany, but at least if they had put in the Tysha confession we'd understand more WHY he was such a terrible adviser because it would have turned him into an angry and broken drunk.But I guess then it would be more difficult to sell "I drink and I know things" shirts lmfao.
Agreed. He might not be as powerful in the books, but he managed to buy a sellsword company out from under Danys enemies and is planning to have them Trojan horse the slaver armies. And we had Penny to humanize him when he goes dark.
This is an excellent critique, and basically shows the small signs that D&D were doomed to ultimately fail. It all became fan-fiction type writing after season 5
@@stud20084977 apart from dorne and the sansa arc season 5 is pretty good. Cersei, Jon and dany all get great arcs, as well as Brienne and stannis to a lesser extent.
@itsLeviOsa yep Season 5 and 6 are no longer following the books style that much but in its own way and as a proper TV show they are still pretty good. Season 7 and 8 is where everything goes to trash.
No Tywin knew Tyrion didn’t kill Joff but the trial gave him leverage over Jamie to leave the Kingsguard and take his spot as his true heir to Casterly Rock and thus he would have to marry and have true born children. It’s all about furthering the family line and the Lannister legacy. He’s always obsessed with legacy
It was definitely for the relationship with jaime. What's crazy is that every point after the confession would have been better. Seeing had badly Tyrion was hurt but the confession would have had an impact on Jaime. Jaime had always been slightly blind to the cruelness of his father because it was never directed at him. It also would have added more depth to Tyrion freeing Jaime after he was caught by Danny's forces. The show leaning into fan favorite relationships is what helped ruin this show.
I always hated Shae's betrayal, because it just seemed like her character was made arbitrarily dumb. She seemed like a smart character who knew what she was getting into when she came with Tyrion to King's Landing, knew the kind of person Tyrion's father was and that they were virtually surrounded by enemies...and yet...as soon as Tyrion starts warning her about the danger, her IQ just drops 50 points. Finding out that her character in the book was just manipulating him, honestly would've made me feel better about the character had the show portrayed her as such.
I feel like she would have prefered to be in the trenches with Tyrion and fight rather than being sent away for her protection. She got the danger but was like Tyrion i don't give a fuck about that, let's stick together.
Surma Wolfsoul Shaes life up to that point was pretty awful. She had a chance of getting a better life and took it. What was she supposed to do at the trial... get killed for tyrion even though she didn’t love him?
I'm impressed by this theory, but was sold on it completely because (1) you did it before season 8 and (2) you accurately predicted Tyrion's betrayal of Dany (and the fans' reaction to that). Well done!
Not only does this ruin Tyrion’s arc, but it also stifles Jaime’s arc. In pretty much every subsequent Jaime chapter from AFFC and ADWD, Jaime is haunted by Tyrion’s words of how Cersei is “fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know”. This puts a lot of stress on Jaime and Cersei’s relationship, making him see her sister more and more as a cruel, manipulative, foolish bitch that probably never truly cared about him. Along with his journey through the Riverlands with Brienne, Tyrion revealing Cersei’s infidelity is one of the main driving forces pushing Jaime into a more heroic and moral character. It’s honestly a shame that a lot of the character’s arc following season 4 are almost nonexistent. That is why I implore everyone to read the books if you have not done so. If you wanna experience a more satisfying story than the show or if you just wanna have a good read, I can’t recommend A Song of Ice and Fire enough.
I always felt sorry for Tyrion and how he was treated. The Tysha Confession would have significantly changed the interaction between Jaime and Tyrion going forward and I don't think we would have gotten the scenes we did if it had been kept in the show. I agree that without it we do lose something in the Character of Tyrion.
You forgot that Tywin wanted him to take the Black also so he’d have more control over the Night’s Watch where Jon Snow was suddenly rising to power. He felt having Tyrion there would give the Lannister’s a measure of control over the Wall.
Spencer Walther the wall didn’t really matter to Tywin. He included the Night’s Watch idea in the video. I believe there’s a scene in ASOS where Tywin literally doesn’t give a shit about the reports from the wall and it’s in the show as well. Nothing at the wall matters to them that’s why it’s perfect for Tyrion.
@LagiNaLangAko23 Tyrion sent Slynt away because he was Cersei's means of controlling the Gold Cloaks and for murdering or allowing his second in command Allar Deem to murder of Roberts bastard girl Barra(depending on show or book) and Tyrion put someone else in charge(Jacelyn Bywater in the books, Bronn in the show). When the Nights Watch sends out their ravens to ask for aid and Lord Commander Mormont is revealed as dead, Tywin sends a suggestive letter that they should trust in Janos Slynt, which is pretty much Tywin saying "put him in charge, or else.", which the Watch guesses and Jon overhears from Alliser Thorne and Othell Yarwick discussing.Tywin didn't really care overall, but with the Wall about to be attacked by Wildlings, its most likely he wants someone there he can control(though this is around the time that Robb was killed, so he cared less about the North at that point since Bolton was in his pocket.) In the books, after Jon executes Slynt and its revealed Jon is Lord Commander and was allowing Stannis to camp at the Wall, he sends a letter saying he's not working with Stannis, though Cersei remembers Jon from her time at Winterfell and has plans to send one of her agents and a few hundred men to the Wall to "join the Watch"(really to overthrow Jon, considering him a traitor). However, the man she plans to send North is currently under arrest by the Sparrows(he was supposed to lie and say he slept with Margaery Tyrell, but the High Sparrow saw he was "too eager"to confess and had him tortured, with the agent revealing he actually slept with Cersei) and Cersei is in their custody as well, though Jon has been stabbed by the people at the Wall by the time of her imprisonment.
@@jgpfister11 ye I just read that chapter, they're talking about taking the goldcloaks off to the wall and Tywin says no as the wildlings will benefit us with weakening the north
THIS ANSWERS SO MUCH. I was always SO confused by Shea's sudden 360, it made so little sense from any point of view other than 'LOLZ money and betrayal duH'. Thank you for clearing this up.
No way the show would have been paced correctly in 8 seasons, and therefor it can't be good. GRRM says it should have easily gone 12-13 seasons but D&D is basically "nah we're only decent at pawning off other people's work; can't expect us to be original."
ThePaintingBanjo they could’ve properly adapted the 5 books 10 seasons 10 episodes per season we wouldn’t even be done with that yet most likely winds is out and they do that book in 2 or 3 seasons and then dream to finish it off is it a lot of work absolutely would it be the greatest show ever yes no doubt it’s wasted potential after they divert from the books
Also I feel like the lack of Tyrion's response to Jamie's confession in the show makes Jamie's character lack direction and drive as well. In the books he's been given ample reason to fall out of love and even stop trusting Cersei all together, whereas in the show... well we've seen where that goes.
im watching this after the last episode is aired, and all the predictions this guy makes for the last season are wrong. he gave the writers too much credit
Sadly you are correct. I just couldn't buy that Tyrion would have trusted Cersei and there must have been something deeper going on to explain his uncharacteristic actions. Unfortunately I suppose I did in fact give D&D too much credit. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they were POSSIBLY planning on doing this, but decided against this during the writing for S8. I personally believe they considered keeping Stannis alive at some point following his "death" at the end of S5 which is why they don't show his death at the hands of Brienne. Writers who don't have a game plan for such a dense and interconnected series such as this one... well it just spells trouble.
@@MacabreStorytelling Let's not forget the important thing you got RIGHT. Dany. You talked about the darker aspects of Dany's character, and why Tyrion would or wouldn't see it in the books vs. the show, even though the audience/readers have seen it for some time. YES, exactly. Which is why I'm confused when people say her "turn" wasn't set-up, that it came out of nowhere. It was there all along. It was practically on neon letters on her chest. Was it rushed? Maybe, yeah. But it didn't come out of nowhere.
@@Revelwoodie Missing a step and falling down the whole staircase are two different things. What dnd did was show Dany miss a few steps, seemingly regain her balance and then cut to a shot of her sprawled at the bottom of the staircase. So in that regard, it still did come out of nowhere.
@@nbucwa6621 Yeah, but I think we were supposed to be blindsided a bit. We were supposed to be thinking until the last minute, "Maybe we're wrong. Maybe she'll be fine. She's a good person, she knows when enough is enough." And then we're as shocked and saddened, in the end, as Tyrion and Jon during their dialogue in the prison cell. If the writers did their job, we should be feeling the same things during that scene as the characters are feeling. And it worked. If they had been telegraphing for 6 episodes, "Oh, yeah, it's coming! Here it comes! She's definitely gone off the rails, no turning back!", then that scene would have had zero impact. And that scene NEEDED to have impact, because it wraps up the whole point of the show, about power, leaders and followers, and the folly of faith.
In the books, it never seemed like Shae loved Tyrion at all-nor was she betraying him by not loving him. He paid her for the girlfriend experience. Also, she would have been killed by Cersei if she hadn’t testified. Shae in the show loved Tyrion, though.
@@emiliawaldmann2109 Thats weird. I remember in a chapter of "Feast for Crows", Cersei remembers Shae asking for her pretty dresses and gems and a marriage to a knight, but because she doesn't know where Sansa is, Cersei denies her. GRRM has made it clear from Tyrions POV that Shae was an opportunist and just doing it for money and finery.
Personally, I don't think the inclusion of Shae actually loving Tyrion was all that bad for the show, it was purely the exclusion of the Tysha confession that ruined it. In fact GRR himself says in his blogs that he actually preferred Shaes portrayal in the show than the books, but imo they're both pretty good
@@vin8754 I also don't think it was bad, but I do think that changing her and giving her her book ending was not a good thing. They had set up a certain mystery about Shae when she first met Tyrion, which they never delivered on, and a lot of the viewership also hated Shae after she testified (although I personally feel her choices were so limited as to be nonexistent there). Tywin's death was necessary for the story, but Shae didn't (necessarily) have to go out in the same way. The removal of the Tysha reveal changed things for both Tyrion's and Jaime's characters in myriad ways. Jaime becomes almost trapped in amber as his character revolves too much around Cersei and Tyrion's depression resolves (or at least ends) quickly and his dark path is dispensed with.
Tyrion didn't yell at Jamie to not charge toward the dragon because he is in a middle of a battlefield. EVERYONE is literally yelling and there are loud noises everywhere.
@@nicholasmatos6532 Well, to be fair, he doesn't really seem that alarmed. Even if he didn't yell to try and stop him. You'd think he might exclaim in surprise or call out as a gut reaction. Or something else along those lines. His reaction is less like someone watching a person they love charge into certain death, and more like someone watching their brother go for a goal in a soccer match when their coach told them not to.
I know I'm late to this but the reason it is weird has nothing to do with if Jaimie actually would have heard Tyrion or not. The issue is that in the show Jamie is the only person who ever cared for Tyrion in Tyrion's mind so to watch him charge in to certain death and only remark that Jamie is an idiot is just doesn't not fit at all.
It always bothered me how in the show Shae thought Tyrion meant that whole vile break up speech. He tried to get her out of King's Landing before but she couldn't see that it was just another attempt at that. Thank you for acknowledging that.
I mean, you can’t completely blame Shae for that. Sansa is younger, in her eyes prettier, and is high born, and she and Tyrion are married. And Tyrion is always talking sweetly to Sansa and being really kind to her, and you can kind of see them become a little bit closer. Shae was obviously pretty jealous about that, and it would make sense that her and Tyrion’s love would be an insecurity for her. Then he tells her that speech to get her out of kings landing, and the first thing that comes to mind when he mentions being unworthy of her children: Sansa. Shae would think he’d fallen for Sansa now, when he promised that he wouldn’t, and that she would always be his lady. Cersei encounters shae in this emotional, hysterical, and heartbroken state, when all shae wants is revenge on Tyrion because she believes he never loved her. This is just what I understood from the show, I could b wrong though
@@swarakotamraju9463 Sure, but as someone who has only read the books. That is so strange because it is the exact opposite in the book. Shae does not care in the slightest. Tyrion tries to break it to her gently, but Shae already knew and tyrion gets upset about how clearly wrong he was about her feelings for him. Shae explains that it's an arranged marriage and Sansa is a little girl, not a threat to her and what they have been doing. Book Shae is either a very adept prostitute, following the money and privileges she can get. Or she is so aware of her low status and the risks that she doesn't think in terms of a relationship. She is only 18/19 at the time and possibly has been the victim of sexual assaults from a young age, so she may have reasons to have a different view of things. Not that it matters. The book and show are different. But in making this change , what are they achieving? It is strange to change Shae so much , like they are trying to make it a nicer story but surely Tyrions desperation to be loved and willingness to kill people who have crossed him are more interesting than nice guy Tyrion.
sam .t in the books as soon as he dies his bowels loosen and he takes a massive fucking shit. Unfortunately for Tyrion and the funeral he didn’t shit gold
@@wesleyscott1633 Wasted opportunity. In the Middle Ages, royalty would use gold flecks as a seasoning in exotic foods. Even today, there are some super high end pastry shops that still do this. Since the gold cannot be digested, you end up with gold in your waste.
Thyce it still sounds butt hurt to me he shunned the show every time he mentions it. If this guy couldn’t see what the writers meant in all those scenes than he doesn’t use his eyes.
People who think critically = butthurt. Wow, a new low for shunning independent thought. Have fun swallowing whatever shit labeled as "entertainment" gets thrown your way though.
@@MikeJones-sr1jg So fanboy. I have a question. How does it feel when "writers" as you call them sink the whole show for their own stupidity and vanity? Or do we miss something again?
This probably helps explain why Tyrion seemed less smart and useful in later seasons. It all goes to show some key elements missed by D&D and I'm not even sure they understand it.
Exactly. If Tyrion's Arc was left intact it would explain that the reason he seems so inept is because, to a certain degree, his mind and heart just aren't into what he's doing anymore and his mistakes, instead of just being plot devices, are a product of his character regression and disenchantment.
@@extraneoustitled5103 Yep, then he'd get to Westeros and snap back to reality just in time to realize that Danny is basically a monster now and the only reason he couldn't see it earlier was due to his depression/spite.
GRRM had lots of Tyrion in his travels through Dances With Dragons(season 5), but unfortunately, they cut it down to Tyrion only travelling with Varys, then Jorah and none of his best scenes were included, including one where Jorah lies and attempts to barter passage with Tyrion as captive with a rich widow of a Master and fails and Tyrion does it just by telling the truth, offering everything from his words to his cock for Danerys when he gets to Meereen and all he wants in return from her is to rape and kill his sister. Over the later seasons(after they started ignoring GRRM), it seems like they made it more obvious who was good and who was evil, when characters used to be morally grey.
I just rewatched GoT and I thought it made no sense for Tyrion to go back and kill his father. Now it makes sooooo much more sense. Didn’t realize that D&Ds negligence went back so many seasons
I feel like the reason they removed the tysha reveal was because she is just a story in tyrions past that isn't mentioned much in the show. Why would she be? Yet in the books, where we see tyrions thoughts, she is constantly on his mind. It's a big part of his character they couldn't adapt properly because you can't see into his mind like in the books. I feel like Shae was intended to be kinda like tysha in the show to account for that absence so she loves him for who he is. I assumed they were going to have Shae love him without the jealous part, so when she betrays him, it comes out of left field. Tywin then has Shae killed, and has tyrion told just after he is sentenced as a final knife twist. Then when Jaime saves him, Jaime explains tywin gave her a choice - betray tyrion or be executed, so she betrays him, and he has her killed anyway. Then when tyrion confronts tywin, tywin calls her a whore etc etc crossbow to the gut. I think that would have been better than what we got - it allows for vengeful tyrion but still removes tyshas subplot and potentially tyrion falling out with Jaime but if it was framed just right maybe you could say Jaime knew what was going on the whole time and didn't stop it? I dunno, the Shae aspect still has issues.
Perhaps they could add some little detail, like some token Tysha could´ve given to Tyrion on their wedding night (like a flower, a scarf, a ring, some embroidery, their wedding ribbon) We could see Tyrion looking at this token from time to time, to represent his feelings for her, and that she is in his mind.
@@vilwarin5635 Could even be a non-physical token, such as a catch phrase or quote. He could have some tradition that he always observes and people ask his about it two or three times each season, each time getting more and more of the story out to the audience. The big reveal is teased from earlier on, and it would have a kind of constant presence that you can't otherwise get from the show's purely diegetic presentation of information.
@@LicoriceLain that would've been just a reminder for the audience wich is not replacement for an actual characterization of how important she was for him. i mean they did something like what you said to justified mad queen daenarys and look at the mess we got. i like the idea of a token that was always by his side. They could've had a scene with bronn, pod or even varys asking the meaning of said token (after seasons of seing it without knowing) and it would've drove the point home.
I would of loved to of seen Dinklage portraying Tyrions darker side he has later on in the books but I guess they would rather see him as an idiot then villainous. The writer's once again proving why they failed the show.
@@BuggyDClown-pc7sc 😭😭 "mummy the bad man on the Internet can't be arsed to spell check himself and because I am such a smart person I have to waste my time to tickle my ego" 😭😭😭 get a grip bitch
As someone who has not read the books, I found this so illuminating. Thanks for taking the time to produce such a clear explanation of a thoughtful reflection on the effects of omitting key elements from the book. I really appreciate this.
Excellent analysis. I realized that Tyrion had become bland after season 4, but I attributed it to his arc ending with the death of Tywinn, and his becoming Hand of the Queen. He'd killed his tormentor, and finally been given the position of respect he'd always deserved. Tyrion arc over. From then on he was just a minor supporting character, a redundant advisor type. Now I see that there was unmined depth to his story that could have made him a main character for several more seasons. But they fucked it up for the reasons you stated.
I specifically remember the foreshadowing for Shae and was confused when it was treated as her actually loving him. i thought it was obvious she wanted a better life situation and saw it as a mutual transaction
Yes, he became a morally good paladin. The paladin/boyscout personality is super played out, it's crazy to me how writers still uses this gimmick. Jon Snow was a goddamn paladin the whole series, one of the most boring protagonists in recent memory. Then Tyrion all of a sudden " but the people", "I love my brother, my sister, my queen, etc..".. Such a goddamn waste
These little but meaningful things in the books being replaced or completely ignored and discarded from the show was the first red alert to David and Dan's surface understanding of the whole story. Too bad we didn't see it sooner.
basically they removed all of tyrion’s complexities, most likely bc he’s a fan fave and they’d rather he‘d be seen as a hero as opposed to the morally grey, even a straight up awful person he is in the books. in the books, both tyrion AND dany are going dark and it’s likely he will be more of an enabler of her morally questionable and reprehensible actions than the good angel on her shoulder holding her back like he’s portrayed in the show. i bet some of those dark dany things will even be his idea.
In the end, if the final twist of the series is this "evil queen" facade... Then HBO not only butchered the story, but also spoiled us. Do you really think it's worth to read 3k pages in the next 10 years or so (because Martin will sure take his time to release the last book), all that... if you already know the final twist?
@@mimiHTcat but the mad queen is obviously the final twist. If Martin follows this concept, if he goes with Christ Snow, King Bran, etc... I honestly think this is not something interesting at all. Think about it, this series introduced dark fantasy to many people, the core concept is how dark fantasy subverts and twists fantasy cliches. But, if the end of this dark fantasy is abour a martyr hero, Daenerys becoming evil because of her bloodline, Bran as the destiny "child who was promised", etc... These are fantasy cliches. Martin is struggling to write this kind of generic crap and you are still hopeful? Good luck
R i don’t believe it’ll be a ‘twist’ as she is already going down a darker path as of the end of the most recent book and there are still 2 more to come, and i don’t believe she’ll be as blatantly crazy/evil as she is in the show. she’s going to gradually go down that path and it won’t be a shock when she does something extreme. grrm is all about grey morality and ambiguity. pretty much every character in the books is morally grey and complex and capable of both good and terrible things. tyrion is a much worse person for example, jon is more morally grey and cunning. dany will do something villainous, i have no doubt about that. something unforgivable - burning KL will be her doing. but it won’t be so abrupt and it will be better written, and there will likely be some degree of ambiguity or complexity surrounding it.
10:20 In the book's Tyrion killed Shay because she was in his father's bed, but also because she called him..."My Giant Lannister." It seemed as if she were mocking him. She always called him that when they were alone, but at that moment it enraged him. That is the reason he killed her.
"He kills Shay then confronts his father on the shitter." Hahahahaha I'm not sure why it did, but this completely broke me and I burst out laughing until I cried.
As someone who didnt read the books, this is fascinating. Seems like there were a lot of hints that the character development was going downhill while leaving the books behind
Fantastic Video! I wondered "why, did they leave Jamie's confession out?" I never realized just how much this trickle/effected later seasons. Thanks for posting this!
I don't understand why the writers thought that we wouldn't still love Tyrion if he changed into a darker character. Tywin and Cersei are my favorite characters BECAUSE they're dark and complex! Complex characters are what made the show great!
But people loving and defending those types of characters is what makes the world very screwed up, I can understand liking a character for what they bring to the show or whatever but the fact that people are always saying how much they love these clearly disgusting to their core characters is just weird and screwed.
@@Heartshapedbox81 I mean I don't defend either character. They just make for good TV. I'd rather have a complex evil character like Cersei or Tywin than a vapid one.
"They didn't want their fan favorite character to do morally questionable things..." Meanwhile, Danny burns 1,000,000 people alive for no reason, while we get this painfully sterilized, neutered version of Tyrion who just stops being a character after season 5. I've never read the books, but man, as much as I like T.V. Tyrion (at least he first 4 seasons of him), I think I like the sounds of book Tyrion more. The idea of this highly morally ambiguous character, who sometimes is extremely merciful and emotionally sensitive, and other times is ruthless and vindictive, is very intriguing to me. It's rare a single series follows a single character through the turbulence of being a good guy, a bad guy, and then a redeemed bad guy, usually they just jump in somewhere in the middle. The idea of Tyrion starting off as a (mostly) good guy, who is emotionally abused to the breaking point where he goes full villain, building up Danny as the "savior" of the world, not really caring if she's good or bad as long as she's different from what he has already known, only to turn on her in a moment of clarity when he realizes what a monster she really is, and what a horrible person he was to have ever encouraged or turned a blind eye to her cruelty... I mean, eat your fucking heart out, Darth Vader, that would be one of the most epic character arcs in the history of fiction, no exaggeration.
@@filipe2444 Since making this comment I've been going through the books via Audible. And as I suspected, I do like book Tyrion more. I like the book version of a lot of things, in fact lol
@@alphagamer9505 Yeah I've been going through the audio books, and while I'll fully admit that I'm probably missing some of the finer details since I'm not actively paying attention as much as I would if I were reading the physical books, I am enjoying it more than the show. Tyrion is a lot more interesting and complex, I quite like Jamie's characterization, and a lot of the battles are more interesting too. For example, I like the battle of The Wall when the Wildlings attack Castle Black. I like that it takes place over several days, and is slow and progressive, like a real war. Each new attack by the Wildlings is met by a different answer from the Night's Watch, and it's interesting to see the gradual escalation of warfare.
On the battlefield Tyrion couldn't really do anything to save Jamie. If he yelled stop or waved his hands, he would have just been alerting Daenerys and the Dothraki to Jamie's charge at Daenerys. Plus it's unlikely that Jamie would have even heard him, with everything that was going on around them.
What do you mean static character? He grew a beard after season 4.
got me there...
SnarfSoup such development much wow
SnarfSoup such development much wow
Also, he drinks slightly more. His brooding quotient is measurably higher.
And he got 3 inches taller
Actually Tyrion very clearly DOES realize in the book that Shae doesn't really love him. He mentions it several times. He just willingly goes in denial.
I'm not sure if it's as clear-cut. He does seem to entertain that possibility and you can certainly read their relationship as that. I think it's a bit more nuanced, and left to readers' interpretation. Personally I think Shae is fond of him at least in some capacity, but she's a practical person more concerned with her own survival. It wouldn't matter to her how much she loved Tyrion. She'd still ditch him in order to save her own skin because that's the reality she's always known. Remember she is much younger in the books.
Tyrion was a piece of human garbage from book one and it's not hard to figured out why he is the way he is however that does not change that he is still the way he is. And the subsequent events he was a part of merely caused him to show his wickedness more and more. I hope when Daenerys meets him in the books she burns him alive and be done with it, that would be one less vermin she has to deal with in the future.
@Gabriel Gouvêa Clearly we have vastly different opinions of what being a better character entails.
@@damianallen8377 What she needs to do is remove his toungue before he could talk to her into taking terrible descisions....but honestly i don't think things would be easy for tyrion in meeren,remember that Barristan is there and he will advice her against the half..but perhaps barristan dies before dany comes back to city...also it would ve great to read the interactions between Tyrion Barristan and Victarion
Damian Allen you do realise your talking about Game of Thrones, right? It would make no sense for Daenerys to “burn Tyrion alive”. He is extremely smart and has lots of inside knowledge regarding her enemies. It wouldn’t help her at all. Also why would Tyrion tell Daenerys about his crimes?
I think Peter Dinklage being fairly handsome partly ruins his character. People aren't immediately revolted by Tyrion in the show but in the books he is disgusting.
Agreed. Whenever someone in the eagle mentions being disgusted by him I just can’t buy it. Dude has a jawline that could cut a thanksgiving turkey.
@@MacabreStorytelling all he's ever mocked for in the show is basically being short, but his creepy mismatched eyes, stringy hair, massive head, and lack of nose caused people to despise him for his entire life. He's sociable in the show, but in the books it feels like most people are just trying to avoid him or avert their eyes. Book Tyrion had it way worse. Then again, he doesn't really become evil in the show so him being scorned by literally everyone isn't really necessary.
@Anjelica Snorcket too tall?..... Really?
@@anthonyf616 tall-er, not tall
@@anthonyf616 He is 10 inches taller than Tyrion in the books 😂
D&D kinda forgot about Tysha.
lmao
@What ? How?
Robert U mean they forgot to say you're a POS
And it's funny because one of the mid-season episodes (the one where future Master of Coin Bronn has to be explained what interest on a debt is and refuses to ever do it and the one where Pod is revealed to have a magic penis) is written by George RR Martin himself. In the scene with Bronn and Tyrion where they discuss interest and Littlefinger's money laundering, Bronn brings up Tysha again for the first time in two seasons. Martin WANTED her to be remembered by both D&D and the viewers.
You're a real idiot, aren't you? They were subverting our expectations.
It also screws up Jaime’s arc, because the news of Cersei’s infidelity caused Jaime to question his relationship with her, and the path he’s taken in life.
Right? He just spends 3 more seasons with her and even returns to save her at the end
And it ruins the very fact that Jamie is challenging his loyalty to the family by way of Cersei and Tywin and instead being honest with Tyrion.
Then that could explain his relationship with Brienne
YES this is the biggest reason for Jaime changing his priorities.... not Brienne, not his hand. Although those had a huge impact as well.
R Nickerson “you beat me by one second”
This confession changes both characters arcs. Jamie finally starts to open his eyes to what Cerci is, and how she controls him, and Others, with sex. I can't wait for Winds of Winter. I want the Real story. Not the hbo, watered down story.
you are gonna be waiting for a long time.
Hardly no one mentions that Bran Stark AKA 3eyed Raven was a master manipulator.
It was Bran that revealed that Jon Snow was the legitimate air to the Iron Thorne. From that moment it change the trajectory of events.
On the surface, Bran seemed sincere and well meaning.
However, in the books there was a question about Tyrion's true paternity. Tyrion was born with silver-white hair and one violet colored eye. Also, The Mad King was obsessed with his mother Joanna Lannister.
Bran would've been the only one who knew for sure.
Like Jon Snow telling Tyrion that he was a Targaryen and not a Lannister wouldn't have changed any major outcomes of battles.
However, it would have explained Tywin's complete rejection of him and his unexplained strong connection with Daenerys. Knowing this may have changed his prospective about her towards the end.
Remember, it was Tyrion that warned Jon Snow about her dangerous potential.
It was Bran AKA 3eyed Raven that choose not to reveal Tyrion was the 3rd Dragon (theoretically).
The only part of season 8 that needs rewriting is our knowledge that Bran's knew about Tyrion's true origin but choose not to reveal it.
It's "Game of Thrones" not Game of Fairness. What would've made sense to us as the audience (Usual Suspects moment) that Bran AKA all knowing, all seeing, handy capable 3eyed Raven was ,"in it to win it", and released just enough information to make himself King (Lil'Finger style).
I believe that's wear the writers let us as the audience down.
Finally, by making the 3eyed Raven King doesnt it make him/it King for eternity? Please correct me if I'm wrong. The 3eyed Raven doesn't die it just moves to a new body?
That’s the show. There’s no way that Jon is anyone other than Ned Stark’s son. Read, or re-read the books. It is glaringly apparent.
@@Mordante69 People say wonderful things about Rhaegar, but they never say what is actually so wonderful about him. He always seems off to me. Aloof and weird. He wins tourney's easily, but was that due to skill...or the fact that he was the heir to the Iron Throne? He only ever fought in one battle, and he was easily killed. He seems to have not only humiliated his wife at the Harrenhal tourney, but abandoned her and their children altogether. He also seems to have had no interest in doing anything, or complaining about the abuse his mother suffered at the hands of his father. I don't get the Rhaegar praise at all. It seems...empty.
@@Mordante69 I don't think they did get it right at all. It's obvious to me, from reading the books, that Jon is Ned Stark's son. If Lyanna did have a child, I think it was Young Griff. I doubt GRRM would allow one of the biggest secrets of his books be revealed on the show before the books.
The Tysha confession was one of the most jawdropping and heartbreaking reveals in the book. It would've been perfect drama material and it would've taken them less than 2 minutes. They're truly fools for leaving it out
Damn, after watching the series I really felt that they wasted the opportunity. Peter Dinklage is one hell of an actor and I feel that we were really robbed of seeing his performance portraying the vengeful, hateful, and spiteful Tyrion. That would have saved entire seasons and it would have been a true redemption of his arc especially in the final season where he learned that vengeance is empty.
And that would have helped portray Dany fall, imagine if bitter angry Tyrion pushed her toward madness
@@oliviawilliams6204 It's what probably will happen in the books. Tyrion pushes Dany too far and then, as contrary to what happens in the show, he himself will wanto to be Hand again to fix his mistake.
@@xdz1039 Yeah that's my theory too, and i also expect Euron to steal one of Dany dragon. And think also to have Young Griff already conquering part of Westeros with the Golden Company and Dorne behind her back will be factors too
Olivia Williams yeah I think Aegon will be on the Iron Throne by the time Dany gets there. He will probably be married to Arianne. After Qynten’s death, Dorne will probably not back Daenerys, thinking she’s the mad queen and that she burned him (even though she had nothing to do with it).
Highgarden will also probably support Aegon. So Dany won’t have that big of an advantage coming into this war as she did in the show with Dorne, the Stormlands and the Reach supporting Aegon.
She will be landing at Westeros with the foreign Unsullied, the savage Dothraki, and the most hated house in Westeros the Greyjoy’s. Her HotU prophecy showed her a swaying cloth dragon with a cheering crowd, which seems to me that it represents how Aegon will be perceived by the common people - he will be loved. Which sets up a much more interesting conflict as it didn’t make sense in the show why the common people wouldn’t want Cersei dethroned in favor of Daenerys. Aerys wasn’t even hated by the common people. He was remembered quite fondly by most of them. So it’s not because of who her father is that she didn’t get their support.
I also don’t know if Dany will go full mad queen in the books though compared to the show. The show likes to amp everything up to make it more shocking. The red wedding is a good example as it was actually worse in the show then the books with Talisa. I do think she will be very morally grey when it comes to burning Kings Landing and it could be partly accidental (wildfire). But it will happen and the perception will be that she’s the mad queen.
It’s very reminiscent of the first Dance of Dragons. Rhaenyra isn’t remembered fondly in the history of Westeros and George did make it a point to point out that in Fire and Blood it is written from a biased POV. It makes me think a similar view is going to happen to Dany from the people of Westeros that will help push the Mad Queen viewpoint of her.
@@oliviawilliams6204 That would have been awesome. Tyrion driving her into corruption only to realise the horror of what he's done, too late to stop her.
I really wish there was an audiobook of game of thrones spoken by the characters in the TV series.
smugman It’s pretty shocking how bad the guy is that narrates them, like a borderline comedy children’s book reader
Closest equivalent is a bunch of lore stuff spoken by the actors. It's not the same but pretty neat regardless
@@MKPSG12 when you listen to the books, you get really used to the narrator. Don't even notice anymore and love them
Especially since we have seen Peter D narrate parts of a recent audio book. Also I could see a good amount of actors from the show doing the book, since lots of them were low key frustrated with the show.
@@ajc71398 ...and then he forgets everyone's voices
GRRM wanted at least 10 seasons.. Any issues about GoT ending is squarely on the writers. No one else.
If GRRM wanted 10 seasons, he should have written more books instead of picking cheetos out of his beard or whatever he was doing instead of writing books. Any issues about GoT ending is squarely on one writer -- GRRM. No one else.
@@boredom2go A Feast For Crows and A Dance with Dragons has enough material to cover more seasons. Thing is D & D only took like 10% elements in them and butchered them in the show.
>Any issues about GoT ending is squarely on one writer -- GRRM. No one else.
What a laughable statement. Almost every single plot thread from Season 5 and onwards was D & D. It was them who chose to put Jeyne Poole's Arc to Sansa. It was their choice to not include Arianne and Faegon. It was their choice to combine Victarion to Euron's character resulting into a laughable villain. Had they actually adapted those books, the plot threads to reach many of the highlight events would have been much easier and better than the one we got. Remember, HBO begged D & D to do more seasons so AFFC and ADWD can be reasonably adapted but no, they decided they were done the moment they got their star wars trilogy.
@@RedgraveGilver How long were they supposed to wait for this clown to finish the series? If the author himself has no interest in getting to the point, why should anyone else bother with dedicating their lives to the damned thing? These actors and directors have other things they want to do. Fuck GRRM and his epic procrastination.
@@boredom2go If you think a book can be written quickly, then please do go ahead and do so. As someone who has actually done some writing, I can promise you that it takes much, MUCH longer than you think. Especially if you want a decent result.
@@Renesh2 It's been 8 years. Eight. Years. He's going to keel over before he finishes the damned series. Given the worldwide cultural phenomenon the book series and TV series became, you'd think he'd step on the gas a little. Quite the opposite.
Nice. Now do Jon.
"She's muh queen!"
Uh doh wun eht
SHE MUUUHH KWEEEEEN! Jon will be episode 3 of the re-write series after Tyrion and Dany 👌
Jon is one of the characters that suffers the most from D&D writing. Their need to draw parallels between him and Ned Stark and most importantly the dumbing down to make Sansa seem smart completely ruined his character to me.
@@Arthur-cr9bx And they failed to portray Sansa as smart. They only had people talking about how smart she was instead.
@@wizardsummoner9124 Jon Snow, in the books, is the closest thing the series has to a hero, but his journey is not one of a hero. He is extremely intelligent; the book even takes time to point out Catelyn's annoyance at Jon outshining his brothers when it comes to matters of education. He sets up green houses to help maintain a bread line, he successfully negotiates with the bank to maintain an inflow of supplies, when he rescues the Wildlings he has them inhabit empty farmland, and has them help Stannis. Jon uses Stannis to fight proxy wars. Jon also has autopsies performed to confirm his suspicions of the White Walkers being like zombies. Jon can be ruthless at times. I think in general the show runners felt that audience would need someone unambiguously heroic. That is why I think there was such a huge shift in his personality.
Sansa is very intelligent, not at all slow. She has absolutely no experience as an administrator, she would become an excellent administrator with time if ever offered the opportunity. She is stunningly naieve, even after Geoffrey. In the books she is still Ramsey's prisoner and has not had time to grow. I can easily see George RR Martin's character arc for Sansa being one where she grows into an excellent leader; in the books it has been hinted at, and on the show they ironically forget the rule of show don't tell.
Jon being a natural prodigy at warging was never mentioned on the show. I think that was so Bran's moments could feel more unique.
Have to love how they completely stripped Tyrion of all moral complexity and whitewashed him into another generic good guy in the final season. The same can be said of Arya, who was literally part of a death worshiping cult and took great pleasure in revenge, suddenly getting cold feet at the end.
After season 7, arguably season 6, there are no more complex characters. They are either MUAHAHAA EVIL or good guys suddenly afraid of bloodshed.
Arya was the darkest of the Starks. She is one of the darkest characters.
Arya:(Stabs out a mans eyes, feeds an old man his sons in a pie before slitting his throat and poisons an entire family in revenge.)
Sandor:"Don't kill Cersei."
Arya:"Okay."
(Me: "WHAT?!!!!")
@@phousefilms yeah,but ibeleived the books would follow the same path,arya abandoning her quest for revenge,just instead of being with sandor,will be with lady stoneheart
Yeah, everything that made the show unique and popular was gone by the end.
I don't think that's what whitewashing is
"He kills Shae, confronts his father on the shitter, and murders him."
Best description of that scene I've heard
😂😂
As ya do
Pretty basic description...
Just because he says shitter?
@@ericcheltenham7001 should have demanded a trial by combat
If Tyrion was hateful and bitter, and he joined Dany, he might have contributed to her eventually becoming the Mad Queen.
That sounds a way better arc than what (WASN'T) given to us
ltshep Which would have begun with his look he gave when she started burning people. That haunting realisation of what he contributed to her madness out of his blind hate for the family, and everyone he saved. If GoT had those extra 2-5 seasons? The Tysha storyline could gone somewhere.
We definitely need a re-write from season 7 when material ran out. 😭
@@JuICyBLiinGeR
"I wish I had enough poison for the whole pack of you, I would GLADLY give my life to watch you all SWALLOW IT!"
*DRACARYS*
*Oh gods, what have I done*
Tragedy. Irony. Poignancy.
THE FUCKING GREEKS HAD THIS SHIT FIGURED OUT 2000 YEARS AGO, WHAT HAPPENED?!
@@MrGeorgeFlorcus D&D happened, friend.... D&D...
Schismatic Did you watch the Dany video? I know he hinted at this in the Tyrion video and goes full throttle in Dany’s.
I thought you were gonna touch more upon Jaime. If leaving out the Tysha reveal ruins Tyrion’s character arc, it absolutely DESTROYS Jaime’s Character arc. One of my favourite scenes from the books is when Jaime recieves Cercei’s letter pleading for his help against the High Sparrow, and he simply tears it apart and burns it in the fireplace, finally cutting himself off of Cerceis influence. That scene never could have happened without the Tysha reveal, and the series completely botched Jaime’s arc by having him return to save Cercei from Daenerys and dying together with her.
this aged REALLY well
I know right! I can't believe how accurate this video is 8 months before season 8! It explains why the show has felt like it has been missing something since season 4. Tyrion is GRRM's favorite character, it's no wonder he checked out after season 4 too.
In retrospect, this was one of the best videos describing why Tyrion became such a nothing characters over the last few seasons.
By leaving out this deep seated teen betrayal, the depth of his character development was always missing the true “WHY”⁉️. That extremely cruel betrayal ... even by his own brother (whom he loved most of all till Tysha) ... it was so deeply heartbreaking. Peter Dinklage portrayed Tyrion so well ... then the last 2 seasons it seemed like “what happened”?? His sharp wit, his intelligence, his inner strength was “Where ?”. He had only what was written for him and it was lacking.
aka WHY a character does something is just as important as WHAT a character does
God damn this makes the exchange between Tyrion and his father at Tyrion's trial hit so much harder.
"I'm guilty of being a dwarf."
"You are not on trial for being a dwarf."
"I've been on trial for that My. Entire. Life!"
Yeah. In the books, Tyrion outright told Jaime that he killed Joffrey and Cersei was sleeping with everyone including the fool. That was the depth of his rage.
Tyrion had always been hated by everyone because his status as a dwarf made him abominable. And even in his own family, the only person that showed him any love was his brother. The only other person could have been his mother, but he killed her by being born. It's a tragic story.
The truth about Tysha caused him to lose his brother and thus everything.
There is also an adventurous uncle that Tyrion likes but he isn't in the show and not around him as much as his brother. Mycela and Tommon do also like Tyrion (but might not anymore if they believe he murdered their brother).
@@AndersHass but distant uncle and children are not really the same as your siblings or parents.
@@Faifainei but it still doesn't mean they didn't have positive influence on him. But yes his brother was the highest one of them all so make sense that betrayal puts him into rage/hate mode.
I think everything can be explained by saying the writers wanted to keep Tyrion likable. They also excised Dany's faults for the same reason. If their faults and the crimes they committed had been kept in tact, the final season still would have been a whiplash in characterization, but at least it would have been less so.
Daenerys isn't really likable though. She's hot.
When I first watched GoT I couldn't wait for every episode, but every single time that Daenerys showed up after season 1 I rolled my eyes, and was like "get on with it!"
TBF Tyrion was still a great, compelling, and complex character in the first 4 seasons. He only went downhill in season 5 cause they didn’t know what to do with him. I haven’t read the books, but Daenerys was never really very compelling for me. She’s too disconnected from the other plot lines and her stories get far too repetitive. Along with being less engaging, her not changing after season 1, and being one of the few characters you never feel is at major risk.
@@noahmclaughlin7921 Every single time Daenerys came on screen after season 1 I'd roll my eyes and be like "get on with it"
@@noahmclaughlin7921 she’s very interesting in the books I think. She’s used as a plot device in a way while still being a compelling character. She’s basically this storm that is slowly brewing and being hinted at in Westeros, the people hearing subtle reports of dragons, then a Targaryen queen, all happening on the other side of the world. It’s much the same as far as plot lines go, at least until the show passes the books, but it’s done much more effectively. Also, Dany is meant to be a strange larger than life character. She’s not my favorite, but she’s undeniably interesting, seeing visions of the future and having the slightest tint of madness. The slow burn (no pun intended) of her dragons slowly turning from essentially flying cats, to dévastons monsters akin to a nuclear bomb in got world is done so well too
@@noahmclaughlin7921 the show also largely excludes her main arc, which is her constant search for home. All through the books she mentions and dreams about “a red door” which is a memory of her childhood, living in a house with a loyal knight who died when she was young. She lived there until she was about 5, then was kicked to the streets when her friendly knight died. It was the only home she knew, and viserys telling her of Westeros turns it into this idyllic paradise in her mind, which is her real reasons for wanting to go there. Deep down I don’t think she cares about the crown or power, it’s a means to an end. I believe that when she finally reaches Westeros and spends some time there in the books, she will realize that this place is really no different from any place in Essos she’s been, and will have some understanding of what home really is and either decide to end her war due to its unnecessary devastation, or just go batshit crazy, but it will actually make sense
Mostly agree, though I particularly loathed - in general - Tyrion caring about Cersei again. Only Tommen and Myrcella deserve his care - and Jaime could earn it back. But the point of Cersei is that she can't be redeemed; and what care Tyrion has for his family, should make Cersei's actions even more unforgiveable to Tyrion.
Any redemption would involve him coming to recognize that Tommen, Myrcella and Jaime were victims of Tywin and Cersei's manipulations, just like he himself was.
But, show writers made a mess of that, just a they made Jaime's arc a complete worthless mess.
Maester Gryphon stop simping for Cersei, she’s evil
@Maester Gryphon I feel like that argument falls apart the moment she blows up the Sept, granted she hasn't done that in the books. Still, the lack of any real conflict over that in the show is mystifying to me. That should've been the moment Jamie realized he killed the Mad King for trying to do basically the same thing.
Tyrion going over the edge would’ve made the Dany storyline even more powerful. That scene where Dany gives him the Hand pin and he says “I BELIEVE in YOU” would have been so much stronger if we’d seen him become a bad person, only to be pulled back by Dany, only to watch Dany spiral out of control.
I can't wait for the books.
The Books better give us an explanation
Or perhaps even darker would be if Tyrion delighted in teaming up with Dany to get complete revenge, even remaining with her after she becomes morally repugnant.
If Jamie represents GRRM taking a villainous character we despise and turning him into a redeemed character we adore he could do the opposite with Tyrion, turning a character we loved into a revenge filled spiteful imp allied with a power mad Targaryan queen. Sure we could say Tyrion is too smart and nice to turn bad but you could also say that smart doesn't always mean good and that Tyrion has very few reasons to be nice after what people he trusted have done to him.
I like the theory more that he’ll be a negative influence on Dany... the demon on her shoulder whispering in his ear
Stop it! I hate thinking how some people out there could've written this show so much better unfortunately I no longer care to consume this story in a live action narrative just give me the books and move on...
In the book Tyrion, in anger, says to Jaime that Cersei has been sleeping with many other men. In consequence this damages Jaime's arc as well because he never learns in the show and by the end of A Feast For Crows he's abandoned her, finally realising she's nothing but a whore. But in the show he keeps coming back and forth to Cersei, even when she blows up the sept. It's a double sided coin omitting both confessions.
“She’s nothing but a whore” even ignoring how misogynistic this statement is, you’re completely missing the point of Cersei’s character if you think she’s “nothing but a whore”. Jamie doesn’t turn his back on Cersei because she’s a “whore”, it’s because he finally realises how she’s cunning, cruel, ruthless and manipulative, and how uses “love”/sex as a weapon to control him. She’s an amazingly written villain, to see someone diminish her character to just being “a whore” is sad, because simply being a “whore” doesn’t make a woman a villain.
The show fucked up on a lot of things in the late seasons
She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know
So wait, the books aren’t even up to Tyrion meeting Daenarys? Cause if that’s true then the books can fix what HBO fucked up
@@Catherine.Dorian. no in the books Tyrion is right outside the walls of Meereen with the Second Sons and Dany is off somewhere in the Dotkraki sea.
The two biggest mistakes made by the writers were probably: 1 - No Tysha confession (ruined both Tyrion and Jaime), 2 - Having Littlefinger give away Sansa to Ramsay.
This didn’t age well
3- Dorne arc
4- 8 season
Nah the biggest mistake was
“ D:so we finished season 5, and it was pretty damn good, not as good as 4 but they can’t all be season 4
&D: yeah but we are running out of book material to adapt maybe we should hang back maybe allow some more involvement by George, just to have some more to work on you know?
D:....
&D:....
D&D: lol fuck no, this thing prints money just pay some interns to eat some letter spaghetti and have them vomit onto the script, we can adapt that “
I’m 99% sure this is accurate to the letter
@@AverageAwesomeDude lol they could've easily done 8 seasons without needing GRRM to finish, but they cut so much even early when the show was still good, then they got a whiff of lucasfilm and Disney money and absolutely shot their load trying to finish it as quickly as possible, then lost the contract because seasons 7 but especially 8 were written I'm assuming how you described lol and obviously nothing they've shown Netflix since has been much as they've pretty much disappeared after proving they're a couple of hacks
I didn’t read the books so I always thought that Tyrion's reaction against his father a bit extreme, specially considering that he probably suffered a lot before and did nothing
But this whole thing with Tysha changes so much. It makes Tywin’s death much heavier and emotional, and Jaime’s relationship with Tyrion becomes much more interesting without sacrificing the bromance, the big difference now is that, instead of having just Jaime learning how to forgive Tyrion, we have them both learning to forgive each other and themselves for the things they did. And their eventual reconciliation would be so much more touching and meaningful. Truly a shame all this potential for storytelling was thrown out the window
A bit extreme? So sentencing his son to death wasn't horrible enough for you? 😐
I don't agree. I think his actions made sense in the show and in the books. His father treated him that way his entire life but it was only at that point when he had tried to discard Tyrion, and essentially remove him from the family. Also Tywin had pulled the thing with the whore twice in Tyrion's life. The first was the most traumatising event in Tyrion's life and the second Tyrion killed Tywin for it. It does make sense.
I will say that the book version sets up Tyrion's future character arc to be more interesting I just disagree that what happened in the show was illogical. It was probably the last logical thing that D and D wrote for the rest of the show.
i5m1thy I don’t think it’s illogical in the show either. But Tyrion was just released by his brother and simply grateful for it in the show and proceeds to kill his father knowing full well the repercussions his actions could have for his only friend in the world. It’s not that the tv show version doesn’t make sense, but the book version makes *more* sense in comparison. The show isn’t bad at all, but with the context the book gives us the scene could have been much more powerful than it was
Did you not listen to the video? He said in the books they never reveal what Tywin does to Tysha. In the show is where we learn all the Lannister soldiers took turns on Tysha and then Tywin went last.
@@rileydinkleman1022 Watch again friend, I think you misunderstood something. In the books Tyrion tells Bronn and Shae the story but he tells them separately. Also in the books Tyrion was forced to take part in the gang-rape by Tywin. It is not implied that Tywin took part in either version.
I could never understand why they left Jamie's confession about Tysha out of the HBO story. it was just so easy to include and added so much depth to Tyrion.
It's simple, tyrion is the fan favourite and d&d are too wishy washy to ever dare darken their perfect boy, so they just keep him exactly as he is so Peter Dinklage can continue to drink and know things for the entertainment of the masses
@@lunac6094 This makes no sense. He killed his father for no apparent reason. Without this story component his reason for killing his father is ultra flimsy. With this story component his reason is deep and meaningful.
@@chrisbiro1 its just because tywin is a villain and tyrion is the hero getting his justice, we're not supposed to think any more into it
@@lunac6094 exactly that’s simply what they want you to think. Tywin is the villain even in his last moments and Tyrion is the oh so heroic character just getting his just desserts for all the crimes committed against him.
And of course this works so well because they are able to persuade a large part of the audience into agreeing with this notion
@@chrisbiro1 he killed for a very common reason lmao. Shae betrayed him and tywin slept with her. Another betrayal. But yeah the book reasons are far faaaaar better.
This guy figured this out back in 2018
Except Tyrion didn't betray Jon and Dan, he instead goes "No trust me guys she's good"
@@Threeheadedgnome Right, he didnt betray Dany. He only threw the hand of the king batch away and convinced Jon to kill her.
@@simonpaulchristian3100Many had figured out this show was becoming shit after season 4 but most people are ok with it as long as their favourite character is alive.
@@Kapito13 I think season 6 was when things began to really shake. Season 7 was very clearly a different show.
@@fupopandaAre we going to forget how they butchered Stannis and Roose before season 6 ?
The omission of the Tysha confession was the first time GoT disappointed me. I was all set and looking forward to the drama and horror of Tyrion's realisation, the true shattering of the Lannisters, and then... nothing. They parted ways as buddies and all was well between Jaime and Cersei. That episode also gave us the lackluster version of the Children, though they did improve in the next season. Still, the end of season 4 feels like the point where the series went downhill, slowly but surely.
I do get the writers, though. It's hard to write for a depressed and frankly unlikable character, and Tyrion was a major moneymaker. I get they wanted to keep his winning personality intact. It's just such a waste of potential, and it did show in how static he became, as you say. He didn't change, so he just petered out.
You absolutely called season 8, spot on.
Stoneheart too! They killed all possibilities of a few more great seasons. They didn't need the last two books. The 5 published ones had enough to end the story beautifully. Instead of the rubbish that was S8. Went downhill after S4 though, the TV series.
^ yep! the problem isn’t that they ran out of book material, it’s that they deliberately discarded and changed large parts of the books. cutting the tysha reveal, f!aegon and jon con, stoneheart, jeyne poole, arianne, etc and merging their storylines into other characters’ had drastic effects on the show.
“so he just *petered* out” ba dum crash
Also Young Griff
Strong writing would've worked for that arc but here we are...
Real talk, morally-gray/grey characters are far more interesting than purely good or purely bad characters.
ARCtrooperblueleader Yes, but too much of something can be bad.
I felt that there’s too much gray characters now or justified or sympathetic villains. It’s good and all, but too much of it nowadays in books and movies resulted into one or two things.
One is that we justified these villains. We justified that their plans to evil is a collaboration of all factors affecting their lives. It shows that humans are slaves of our environment. Is that really a story we want to make? For example, a thief can justify his thievery because of poor socio-economic status. Yet that would mean that all thieves are pretty much justifiable because they’re broke. Nor does it do justice to those who were poor yet are successful today. We are the masters of our own destinies. Also, where would be a sense of justice then if we treat villains as victims of their own delusion?
Second, people would be making grey characters just for the sake of being grey. That’s not enough to just make a good tale.
A grey character is good because they relate to us as normal broken humans. But a good character morally is meant to inspire our broken nature to be better. We don’t need to be broken anymore, but rather has a higher purpose. But you can’t really be both. After all, you can’t be the light while being in the darkness.
I already seen it in the comics. How come moral superheroes with their message of truth and justice are willing to ally themselves with these dark anti-heroes that has no qualms with killing?
After all, the law doesn’t say that “you can’t kill a man unless he is evil”. It just says that murder of any kind is forbidden (safe for self-defense, but that’s another story).
ARCtrooperblueleader ehhhh depends
Because it could be any of us.
@FORREST GUMP I think it sounds better in the Tv version.
Pure good or bad characters are only a bad thing if their views are presented as good or are never challenged. It's bullshit to say they're inherently unrealistic or not entertaining because it comes down to how one writes them.
“Tyrion is noticeably shookith” Best quote of 2019
2018 lol
iamnotinvolved dang I knew I should of checked but was to lazy
@@stabbyabbey 😂😂 understandable man
The only thing I have with this video is that idea that Tyrion is going to mis-assess Dany when they meet in the books. Tyrion's brains have not gone anywhere, despite his going to the dark side. I think he's going to see her come back to Meereen at the head of a Dothraki army with a dragon she barely controls, but no longer gives a damn about collateral damage from Drogon running wild, and Tyrion's going to understand her and her situation perfectly AND HE'S NOT GOING TO CARE. He's going to say "Yes, this is the perfect weapon to turn against Westeros and my family!" He's going to WANT the Mad Queen, because he wants another Aerys to cause Jaime & Cersei pain and destroy them. He might not have enough poison for all of the city and the court of the Iron Throne, but Dany is going to have enough dragon fire to wipe them all out.
George Martin said the most interesting stories, the ones he wants to tell are, quoting Faulkner, about the human heart at war with itself. That's what the characters' stories are about. Jon fighting with his duty and the people he cares about. Jon's heritage is not about who the "rightful" king really is (after all, Aerys was the rightful king and he was the worst), it's about what it meant for NED. Ned had to tarnish all kinds of relationships with a lie to protect his nephew from the fate of Rhaegar's other children, to keep Robert from sending assassins like he did for Dany & her unborn child, and this informs his actions that lead to his downfall, namely, that he cannot allow children to be murdered for politics. Cat has to struggle between her love for her kids and her role defined by society. The girls & Bran have to struggle with their identities and survival, Jaime has to deal with the reality of the kind of person he is, and what his horrible family is really like and what they've done. And Dany has to deal with her own worst instincts, combined with her idealism. This is not a problem for Jon or Tyrion to deal with, it is for DANY to overcome.
Jaime had to hit rock bottom, he tried to murder a child for his lover and sitting in chains and having people treat him like a worthless piece of crap, and having a person who believes in knighthood the way he did as a boy treat him like a total failure & betrayal of his boyhood ideals, this made his reconsider himself and his relationships with his family and start trying to be better. To start reaching out to people in whom he saw his more idealistic younger self, like Brienne & Loras. Theon had to hit rock bottom. He had to get from thinking he was hot shit & entitled to everything because he was his father's only son & heir, from thinking that he was special. He learned this by completely failing in his efforts to both prove himself to his father, and claim a place in Winterfell by taking it on his own, and then having his identity stripped from him and ground down into nothing, before compassion for someone else help him reclaim his name and act to save her. Dany is going to have to hit her rock bottom in order to figure out who she is and how to be better.
I think she's going to carelessly throw dragonfire around in Kings Landing (with Tyrion's encouragement) & touch off all the wildfire bombs left behind by her father, the Mad King. It will be Dany "completing" the job her father began and make her question the price of "fire and blood". It will horrify Tyrion & make him realize he did not want a mass slaughter after all. It will destroy Jaime whose pride allowed him to shrug off people's judgment of his murder of the Mad King, because now that murder will be all for nothing, the city burned and innocents died of his wildfire. And it will be because Jaime got all butthurt at people judging him, so he decided "Screw you all, I'm NOT going to explain myself or justify my actions, what right do YOU have to judge ME?" Except if he HAD explained, then people would have known to dig up the wildfire! The city would not have suffered as much as it did from Dany's dragon fire, if Jaime had just told someone, rather than sulk that they called him "Kingslayer" without knowing why.
THAT is a plot point that serves three characters' story, and their development and their internal struggles. And it gives motivation for Dany to try to make things right, by saving the world from the armies of Winter and the dead. It gives motivation for Jaime to go north, alone if necessary, to fight for the living, because that's all he can do. It gives motivation for Tyrion to contribute to the final battle, instead of sitting back and laughing while the dead overrun the kingdom that has treated him so shabbily. The "Mad Queen" issue should be Dany's issue and Dany's problem to solve, not Jon's and not Tyrion's or Varys' or Sansa's.
Dany started life on the down side. She's been low. I don't want her to be snow white & sentimental just because she's a woman. She's powerful now. She doesn't need to seek others approval they will now seek hers. The show had her asking for approval & wanting to be liked. Sorry,lmao that's not a problem of the powerful. I don't want her to care about pleasing people or having the moral approval of Jo Blow. Absolute rulers don't care about that foolishness. Why should she have to care just because she's a woman she needs to be approved? None of that foolishness. Most people aren't going to talk bad about a powerful person to their face. When you have power, people line up to kiss your butt for what they can get. The series couldn't write reasonably about power because they don't have it or know anybody with it and don't understand it or study it. Power isn't evil. Its the ability to get things done to make things happen. The notion of Varys getting hysterical & turning was ridiculous. Varys never proved why he had any worth. What was his support supposed to do for Dany? He brought nothing to the table.
@@ctruth6185 There's a difference between being moral and being excessively sentimental. "Down" doesn't just mean status & position, it also means moral or emotional well-being. And part of why Dany was struggling in the last book was that she forgot she has the power. She didn't want to use her power, because she didn't like hurting people, so she made compromise after compromise rather than exert her power and put down the slavers for good and all.
But power does not guarantee it will be used well, and trying to do the right thing is not becoming a simpering Disney princess. Dany has always cared about people, that's why she started her anti-slavery campaign. Going to the dark side and coming back is not about pleasing other people, it is about being the best she can be for her own sake.
Power is the ability to get things done, and Dany's power is magical and otherworldly. She has that power so she can get things done in the magical plot - saving the world from ice demons and their zombie army. Not so she can try some freshman poli-sci nonsense like "breaking the wheel."
Shae's betrayal ties neatly with the quote from Bronn: "Look, I like ya. I just like myself more"
Dont forget how this changed Jaime's arc. "And moonboy for all I know".
Rodrigo Nunes Malaquias moonboy for the iron throne!
Jaime solo se quería cortar los huevos con esa confesión.
Nández
english, dumbass. Do you see anyone on this thread speaking Spanish? Youre not adding anything to the discussion. In fact, you’re just hindering it, making me point out how stupid it is to reply to an English discussion in a foreign language.
And youre a bigot; you see Latino last names and assume they know Spanish; youre disgusting, you bigot.
@@Bell_Matt relax bud
Bell Matthew wow what a sad person you are, what a disappointment
The books seem to be aiming for Barriston Selmy to be the voice of reason and Tyrion to be the voice of rage. Omitting Tysha in the show allowed Tyrion to take Selmys spot...totally agree it ruins Tyrion’s arc
Fully agreed. I don't think he is set to being a good influence on her at all. If Dany sucumbs to her violent tendencies, Tyrion will have encouraged her down that path.
Adam Yup sadder since the actor who played Barristan selmy was so good and played voice of reason really well also the actor was actually really excited for season 5 cause he thought there would be more essos scenes....... yeah funny how that turned out
So book Tyrion is an angry dwarf? I haven’t read the books 😬
Thomas Dixon Jr. Ahhh gotcha
Dokka Bae I have no desire to lol
"He does demand the trial by combat, but"
Holy crap, you could've given me some warning!
No one expects Spongebob memes
The red sponge of Dorne
This is huge.
Following Tyrion wanting to destroy his family after as a continuation of his rage.. yes.. would be perfect.
Wow. I was totally unaware of that Tysha storyline. That would have been so much better for the long-term story in the show if they had kept it in. It kind of bums me out to know what else we missed out on. Great video!
Batman's Dragon You should totally check out the books. All kinds of good stuff to read in them. :)
Show: "But look! Tyrion being a funny drunk dwarf! One liners!"
@Jason & Chubs The story was, but not where it was supposed to go(with Jaime having lied and Tyrion becoming a spiteful monster.)
lady stone heart
jon connington and young griff
victarion
aryane
quentin martell
areo hotah
vargo hoat
and many more
They essentially took out his entire arc after he murders his father. He's the one who is becoming increasingly bitter and violence-minded. It's such a weird stretch to portray him as the one trying to "save" Daenerys from her violent instincts. It's likely that he'll be the devil on her shoulder who's pushing her to be violent.
This was the moment game of thrones became fan fiction. The first time I really questioned the writers. They kind if held it together and we forgot, but it could never be great again.
Characters were ruined.
Tyrion was the least of them
If only we knew
I never cared much for Tyrion but his "poison you all" speech was dope. I would have enjoyed watching an evil Tyrion.
What...? I thought we all loved Tyrion. My favorite character by far.
@Yowatsapp 05 So what? I never watched the show, I only read the books, and he's likeable character despite his flaws. There is a reason why he has more chapters than everyone else.
"...one of the reasons they did this is because they didn't want to kill the bromance between Tyrion and Jamie."
Damn that's actually prophetic after seeing the shitshow that was the final season. Hit the nail right one the head
Very informative. But clearly too subtle for D&D
I don't even know if they read the books. Probably had some intern read it and summarize it for them.
@@scatterthewinds3126 speed run reading
Too daring for D&D
@@scatterthewinds3126 If that were the case, GRRM would've seen it the first time they met. And they would've given the wrong answer to his question.
@@goodjoejoe D&D and GRRM need to stop acting like the answer to who's Jon's real parents are is hard. It's pretty obvious, and anyone who's ever looked up fan theories on ASOIAF would know it. Knowing it in no way made D&D special, even before GoT went into production.
Well it’s okay, season 8 ruined most major character’s character development.
Started way earlier, but people like big moments like the BoB or blowing up the Sept so continued to encourage the show as it got worse, leaving us with seasons 7&8.
@Thomas Dixon Jr.
I think most people saw it, but were probably hoping/thinking it was going somewhere. However, Season 8 was so bad that there was no way of beating around the bush when it came to character development, or lack thereof, and because of that, it gets all the flak.
@@MasterChief0522 It is not that easy to see actually. It was only after season 6 that you could really tell characters are starting to get ruined.
In season 5 all the characters still seem very believable and they do nothing out of their characters (ok tyrion gets worse for "some" reason but thats it). It is only after reading feast and dance I realised how much omitting all the character developments actually matters and now more then ever since the huge disaster that was season 8.
Tyrion not becomming so bitter and dark. This also destroys the point of his journey where he struggles to get back up untill he meets Penny.
Jaimie not questioning cersei and becomming a better person.
Jon not making horrible mistakes to be killed as a result of it
Dany not sacrificing everything for the peace in meereen. This is probably one of the biggest mistake since she reconsidered her approach as a result of it and decided to be more Targaryen in the future and embraced fire and blood. Quite hard to guess to what extend this will be untill we get winds of winter.
And Cersei not being punished for her own mistakes.
And this is actually the reason why the characters in season 7 and 8 were so bad. They severely altered the direction their characters were taking but kept the original ending. This left people like Varys, Dany, Tyrion or Jaimie feel uterly stupid and out of character.
This and the absence of fAegon
FINs_empire and stannis, what did they do to the poor thing?
The only person they didn't ruin was The Hound.
Tyrion being "triggered" by Tywin calling Shae a whore never made sense to me given that he killed her minutes ago. yes he says he is sorry but come on ... the sense of betrayal was too raw and fresh to have him cry like that. it doesn't make sense.
on the trial, he wasn't heartbroken and soft. I was heartbroken and enraged. a rage that should not have allowed for Tywin insult of Shae to affect him in any significant way.
funny how the writers go out of their way to keep the portrayal of the characters they like positive. Dany was obviously a favorite of them as well.
@Anjelica Snorcket yes! That too
Add to that his murder of Shae in the books is cold blooded and from pain and betrayal when he finds her in Tywins bed(which is never mentioned again in the show, as I recall)and absolutely being broken and the show made it "self defence"to make Tyrion remain "likeable" and it adds to the failure of the scene to have any kind of emotion.
My friend(who I made read the books before season 3 came out)actually laughed out loud when Tyrion strangled her and went "I'm sorry...."in the show.
''Dany was obviously a favorite of them as well'' Wait what?
@@legrandliseurtri7495 a favorite of the showrunners. they loved her character
@@moustik31 Which is why she burned a city in 8-5...?
I agree, Tyrion murdering his father was not well justified in the TV series, and it is well justified in the book by this confession.
To learn that you were wronged far worse than you thought can serve as a justification for such a sudden change in attitude.
I think people don't realize that Dave and Dan didn't just "get lazy" They were hacks right from the start. They did write some really good material that wasn't in the books such as the Tywin and Arya moments and the convo between Robert and Cersei but the truth is they're just shitty writers who occasionally get lucky
I'm not a fan of those moments. Tywin and Arya was only made to show off the actors, and is inferior to Arya's journey through the war torn riverlands. And D&D's "humanization" of Cersei showed me that they missed the point of her character. They did write some good original scenes though such as Tywin's establishing character moment, Jon and Ned's goodbye, Robert's war stories, and Catelyn finding out about ned's death.
Tywin arya was stupid because there's no way tywin won't realize who she is.
Only good they wrote was tywin's first appearance and talk with Jamie
Those are easy scenes to make as they have no significance to the plot. People praise them for those scenes but don't realize it's incredibly easy to make scenes when what is said or done is irrelevant to the rest of the plot. Normally scenes/chapters will branch the story, branches that spawn new branches and eventually must all get to a single point. Filler scenes don't have this problem. People are also more forgiving in the scenes because they are interesting. Like why would Tywin not be suspicious of Arya, I am pretty sure he knew by that time that she had escaped. Why would someone as ruthless as Tywin not have everyone executed after someone was assassinated right in front of him?
@@bait5257and the scene with Robert and Cersei talking alone about their marriage
I think the important point is that George (the guy who wrote the big politics book series) got duped by a pair of hacks.
Amazing.
After omitting the Tysha confession Tyrion was dumbed down to the point where he just became that character that constantly made dick jokes. He didn't have one successful plan and was a terrible adviser for Dany, but at least if they had put in the Tysha confession we'd understand more WHY he was such a terrible adviser because it would have turned him into an angry and broken drunk.But I guess then it would be more difficult to sell "I drink and I know things" shirts lmfao.
Agreed. He might not be as powerful in the books, but he managed to buy a sellsword company out from under Danys enemies and is planning to have them Trojan horse the slaver armies. And we had Penny to humanize him when he goes dark.
This is an excellent critique, and basically shows the small signs that D&D were doomed to ultimately fail. It all became fan-fiction type writing after season 5
I don’t think fan fiction is the right word. But they went total black and white instead of multiple complexions
It very much started with season 5. Don't exonerate that steaming pile of garbage that is season 5
stud20084977 i think the show is great t5 show after season 4 is good not t 5
@@stud20084977 apart from dorne and the sansa arc season 5 is pretty good. Cersei, Jon and dany all get great arcs, as well as Brienne and stannis to a lesser extent.
@itsLeviOsa yep Season 5 and 6 are no longer following the books style that much but in its own way and as a proper TV show they are still pretty good. Season 7 and 8 is where everything goes to trash.
No Tywin knew Tyrion didn’t kill Joff but the trial gave him leverage over Jamie to leave the Kingsguard and take his spot as his true heir to Casterly Rock and thus he would have to marry and have true born children. It’s all about furthering the family line and the Lannister legacy. He’s always obsessed with legacy
It was definitely for the relationship with jaime. What's crazy is that every point after the confession would have been better. Seeing had badly Tyrion was hurt but the confession would have had an impact on Jaime. Jaime had always been slightly blind to the cruelness of his father because it was never directed at him. It also would have added more depth to Tyrion freeing Jaime after he was caught by Danny's forces. The show leaning into fan favorite relationships is what helped ruin this show.
I always hated Shae's betrayal, because it just seemed like her character was made arbitrarily dumb. She seemed like a smart character who knew what she was getting into when she came with Tyrion to King's Landing, knew the kind of person Tyrion's father was and that they were virtually surrounded by enemies...and yet...as soon as Tyrion starts warning her about the danger, her IQ just drops 50 points.
Finding out that her character in the book was just manipulating him, honestly would've made me feel better about the character had the show portrayed her as such.
I feel like she would have prefered to be in the trenches with Tyrion and fight rather than being sent away for her protection. She got the danger but was like Tyrion i don't give a fuck about that, let's stick together.
@@catmetal1348 whaaaat? I thought the actress was gorgeous! Plenty of other actresses (I won't name) were more average or uglier looking than her.
Yeah, Shae in the book was kind of just a shallow gold digger and Tyrion is completely blind to it until the trial when it finally dawns on him.
Surma Wolfsoul
Shaes life up to that point was pretty awful. She had a chance of getting a better life and took it.
What was she supposed to do at the trial... get killed for tyrion even though she didn’t love him?
I'm impressed by this theory, but was sold on it completely because (1) you did it before season 8 and (2) you accurately predicted Tyrion's betrayal of Dany (and the fans' reaction to that). Well done!
Not only does this ruin Tyrion’s arc, but it also stifles Jaime’s arc. In pretty much every subsequent Jaime chapter from AFFC and ADWD, Jaime is haunted by Tyrion’s words of how Cersei is “fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know”. This puts a lot of stress on Jaime and Cersei’s relationship, making him see her sister more and more as a cruel, manipulative, foolish bitch that probably never truly cared about him. Along with his journey through the Riverlands with Brienne, Tyrion revealing Cersei’s infidelity is one of the main driving forces pushing Jaime into a more heroic and moral character. It’s honestly a shame that a lot of the character’s arc following season 4 are almost nonexistent. That is why I implore everyone to read the books if you have not done so. If you wanna experience a more satisfying story than the show or if you just wanna have a good read, I can’t recommend A Song of Ice and Fire enough.
I always felt sorry for Tyrion and how he was treated. The Tysha Confession would have significantly changed the interaction between Jaime and Tyrion going forward and I don't think we would have gotten the scenes we did if it had been kept in the show. I agree that without it we do lose something in the Character of Tyrion.
You forgot that Tywin wanted him to take the Black also so he’d have more control over the Night’s Watch where Jon Snow was suddenly rising to power. He felt having Tyrion there would give the Lannister’s a measure of control over the Wall.
Spencer Walther the wall didn’t really matter to Tywin. He included the Night’s Watch idea in the video. I believe there’s a scene in ASOS where Tywin literally doesn’t give a shit about the reports from the wall and it’s in the show as well. Nothing at the wall matters to them that’s why it’s perfect for Tyrion.
@LagiNaLangAko23 Tyrion sent Slynt away because he was Cersei's means of controlling the Gold Cloaks and for murdering or allowing his second in command Allar Deem to murder of Roberts bastard girl Barra(depending on show or book) and Tyrion put someone else in charge(Jacelyn Bywater in the books, Bronn in the show).
When the Nights Watch sends out their ravens to ask for aid and Lord Commander Mormont is revealed as dead, Tywin sends a suggestive letter that they should trust in Janos Slynt, which is pretty much Tywin saying "put him in charge, or else.", which the Watch guesses and Jon overhears from Alliser Thorne and Othell Yarwick discussing.Tywin didn't really care overall, but with the Wall about to be attacked by Wildlings, its most likely he wants someone there he can control(though this is around the time that Robb was killed, so he cared less about the North at that point since Bolton was in his pocket.)
In the books, after Jon executes Slynt and its revealed Jon is Lord Commander and was allowing Stannis to camp at the Wall, he sends a letter saying he's not working with Stannis, though Cersei remembers Jon from her time at Winterfell and has plans to send one of her agents and a few hundred men to the Wall to "join the Watch"(really to overthrow Jon, considering him a traitor). However, the man she plans to send North is currently under arrest by the Sparrows(he was supposed to lie and say he slept with Margaery Tyrell, but the High Sparrow saw he was "too eager"to confess and had him tortured, with the agent revealing he actually slept with Cersei) and Cersei is in their custody as well, though Jon has been stabbed by the people at the Wall by the time of her imprisonment.
Well the south thinks of the nights watch as just a big trashcan.
@@jgpfister11 ye I just read that chapter, they're talking about taking the goldcloaks off to the wall and Tywin says no as the wildlings will benefit us with weakening the north
"Lord Tywin Lannister, did not, in the end, shit gold." -ASOS Tyrion XI
THIS ANSWERS SO MUCH. I was always SO confused by Shea's sudden 360, it made so little sense from any point of view other than 'LOLZ money and betrayal duH'. Thank you for clearing this up.
18O, 360 she will be at the same place.
@@lefrenchwithacbg4732 HAH omg you're right!!! ty lmao, i'm gonna leave it though bc that's a funny af mistake.
@@Spoiled_Rat Watch "Last Action Hero" and you will have even more fun of it !!
Wish what happened in the books happened in the show. Would have made for a more interesting season 7/8 in the show.
I think the writers were too scared to do anything risky or creative. It was a real shame.
No way the show would have been paced correctly in 8 seasons, and therefor it can't be good. GRRM says it should have easily gone 12-13 seasons but D&D is basically "nah we're only decent at pawning off other people's work; can't expect us to be original."
@@thepaintingbanjo8894 8 seasons.. where the last 2 seasons were half a season long.
@@MsMaryPatricia That's the joke. He's not.
ThePaintingBanjo they could’ve properly adapted the 5 books 10 seasons 10 episodes per season we wouldn’t even be done with that yet most likely winds is out and they do that book in 2 or 3 seasons and then dream to finish it off is it a lot of work absolutely would it be the greatest show ever yes no doubt it’s wasted potential after they divert from the books
In the books, Tyrion may be one of the catalysts for mad queen Daenerys. It makes sense
In the books, Daenerys has never been unfairly violent or aggressive
Also I feel like the lack of Tyrion's response to Jamie's confession in the show makes Jamie's character lack direction and drive as well. In the books he's been given ample reason to fall out of love and even stop trusting Cersei all together, whereas in the show... well we've seen where that goes.
Britton Stanaland THIS!!!!
"FOR CERSEI. SHE'S HATEFUL AND SO AM I" THAT CRAP, YEAH.
im watching this after the last episode is aired, and all the predictions this guy makes for the last season are wrong. he gave the writers too much credit
tyrion doesnt turn on dany at all, he in fact turns in varys who he himself was about to turn on dany after he realizes that she's crazy.
Sadly you are correct. I just couldn't buy that Tyrion would have trusted Cersei and there must have been something deeper going on to explain his uncharacteristic actions. Unfortunately I suppose I did in fact give D&D too much credit.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they were POSSIBLY planning on doing this, but decided against this during the writing for S8. I personally believe they considered keeping Stannis alive at some point following his "death" at the end of S5 which is why they don't show his death at the hands of Brienne.
Writers who don't have a game plan for such a dense and interconnected series such as this one... well it just spells trouble.
@@MacabreStorytelling Let's not forget the important thing you got RIGHT. Dany. You talked about the darker aspects of Dany's character, and why Tyrion would or wouldn't see it in the books vs. the show, even though the audience/readers have seen it for some time. YES, exactly. Which is why I'm confused when people say her "turn" wasn't set-up, that it came out of nowhere. It was there all along. It was practically on neon letters on her chest. Was it rushed? Maybe, yeah. But it didn't come out of nowhere.
@@Revelwoodie Missing a step and falling down the whole staircase are two different things. What dnd did was show Dany miss a few steps, seemingly regain her balance and then cut to a shot of her sprawled at the bottom of the staircase. So in that regard, it still did come out of nowhere.
@@nbucwa6621 Yeah, but I think we were supposed to be blindsided a bit. We were supposed to be thinking until the last minute, "Maybe we're wrong. Maybe she'll be fine. She's a good person, she knows when enough is enough." And then we're as shocked and saddened, in the end, as Tyrion and Jon during their dialogue in the prison cell. If the writers did their job, we should be feeling the same things during that scene as the characters are feeling. And it worked. If they had been telegraphing for 6 episodes, "Oh, yeah, it's coming! Here it comes! She's definitely gone off the rails, no turning back!", then that scene would have had zero impact. And that scene NEEDED to have impact, because it wraps up the whole point of the show, about power, leaders and followers, and the folly of faith.
In the books, it never seemed like Shae loved Tyrion at all-nor was she betraying him by not loving him. He paid her for the girlfriend experience. Also, she would have been killed by Cersei if she hadn’t testified.
Shae in the show loved Tyrion, though.
@@emiliawaldmann2109 Thats weird. I remember in a chapter of "Feast for Crows", Cersei remembers Shae asking for her pretty dresses and gems and a marriage to a knight, but because she doesn't know where Sansa is, Cersei denies her.
GRRM has made it clear from Tyrions POV that Shae was an opportunist and just doing it for money and finery.
Personally, I don't think the inclusion of Shae actually loving Tyrion was all that bad for the show, it was purely the exclusion of the Tysha confession that ruined it. In fact GRR himself says in his blogs that he actually preferred Shaes portrayal in the show than the books, but imo they're both pretty good
@@vin8754 I also don't think it was bad, but I do think that changing her and giving her her book ending was not a good thing. They had set up a certain mystery about Shae when she first met Tyrion, which they never delivered on, and a lot of the viewership also hated Shae after she testified (although I personally feel her choices were so limited as to be nonexistent there). Tywin's death was necessary for the story, but Shae didn't (necessarily) have to go out in the same way.
The removal of the Tysha reveal changed things for both Tyrion's and Jaime's characters in myriad ways. Jaime becomes almost trapped in amber as his character revolves too much around Cersei and Tyrion's depression resolves (or at least ends) quickly and his dark path is dispensed with.
Tyrion didn't yell at Jamie to not charge toward the dragon because he is in a middle of a battlefield. EVERYONE is literally yelling and there are loud noises everywhere.
Kiticana X exactly what I was thinking. Rest of the video was spot on but this part...
@@nicholasmatos6532 Well, to be fair, he doesn't really seem that alarmed. Even if he didn't yell to try and stop him. You'd think he might exclaim in surprise or call out as a gut reaction. Or something else along those lines. His reaction is less like someone watching a person they love charge into certain death, and more like someone watching their brother go for a goal in a soccer match when their coach told them not to.
I know I'm late to this but the reason it is weird has nothing to do with if Jaimie actually would have heard Tyrion or not. The issue is that in the show Jamie is the only person who ever cared for Tyrion in Tyrion's mind so to watch him charge in to certain death and only remark that Jamie is an idiot is just doesn't not fit at all.
Wow I just realized this was uploaded way before season 8 came out!!!!
It always bothered me how in the show Shae thought Tyrion meant that whole vile break up speech. He tried to get her out of King's Landing before but she couldn't see that it was just another attempt at that. Thank you for acknowledging that.
I mean, you can’t completely blame Shae for that. Sansa is younger, in her eyes prettier, and is high born, and she and Tyrion are married. And Tyrion is always talking sweetly to Sansa and being really kind to her, and you can kind of see them become a little bit closer. Shae was obviously pretty jealous about that, and it would make sense that her and Tyrion’s love would be an insecurity for her. Then he tells her that speech to get her out of kings landing, and the first thing that comes to mind when he mentions being unworthy of her children: Sansa. Shae would think he’d fallen for Sansa now, when he promised that he wouldn’t, and that she would always be his lady. Cersei encounters shae in this emotional, hysterical, and heartbroken state, when all shae wants is revenge on Tyrion because she believes he never loved her. This is just what I understood from the show, I could b wrong though
@@swarakotamraju9463 Sure, but as someone who has only read the books. That is so strange because it is the exact opposite in the book.
Shae does not care in the slightest.
Tyrion tries to break it to her gently, but Shae already knew and tyrion gets upset about how clearly wrong he was about her feelings for him.
Shae explains that it's an arranged marriage and Sansa is a little girl, not a threat to her and what they have been doing.
Book Shae is either a very adept prostitute, following the money and privileges she can get. Or she is so aware of her low status and the risks that she doesn't think in terms of a relationship. She is only 18/19 at the time and possibly has been the victim of sexual assaults from a young age, so she may have reasons to have a different view of things.
Not that it matters. The book and show are different. But in making this change , what are they achieving? It is strange to change Shae so much , like they are trying to make it a nicer story but surely Tyrions desperation to be loved and willingness to kill people who have crossed him are more interesting than nice guy Tyrion.
I've never gotten over the fact that Tywin didn't shit gold....
he did...but he had just taken a dump when Tyrion showed up
sam .t in the books as soon as he dies his bowels loosen and he takes a massive fucking shit. Unfortunately for Tyrion and the funeral he didn’t shit gold
Or piss champagne....
@@wesleyscott1633 Wasted opportunity. In the Middle Ages, royalty would use gold flecks as a seasoning in exotic foods. Even today, there are some super high end pastry shops that still do this. Since the gold cannot be digested, you end up with gold in your waste.
"He finds POST-BONED Shae in his father's bed." 😂@9:06
yeah, i liked that one too...lol
75rmc75 it was so subtle yet so clever 🤷🏻♂️
The Dumbledore “however” really got me😂 combining two of my favorite fandoms🥰
Great work, instead of butthurt rant you gave a real constructive criticism and great analysis, I really enjoyed in the vid :)
Thyce it still sounds butt hurt to me he shunned the show every time he mentions it. If this guy couldn’t see what the writers meant in all those scenes than he doesn’t use his eyes.
@@MikeJones-sr1jg Are you still defending the writers now?
People who think critically = butthurt.
Wow, a new low for shunning independent thought. Have fun swallowing whatever shit labeled as "entertainment" gets thrown your way though.
@@MikeJones-sr1jg Mike Jones, you a fool for that one
@@MikeJones-sr1jg So fanboy. I have a question. How does it feel when "writers" as you call them sink the whole show for their own stupidity and vanity? Or do we miss something again?
This probably helps explain why Tyrion seemed less smart and useful in later seasons. It all goes to show some key elements missed by D&D and I'm not even sure they understand it.
Exactly. If Tyrion's Arc was left intact it would explain that the reason he seems so inept is because, to a certain degree, his mind and heart just aren't into what he's doing anymore and his mistakes, instead of just being plot devices, are a product of his character regression and disenchantment.
@@extraneoustitled5103 Yep, then he'd get to Westeros and snap back to reality just in time to realize that Danny is basically a monster now and the only reason he couldn't see it earlier was due to his depression/spite.
GRRM had lots of Tyrion in his travels through Dances With Dragons(season 5), but unfortunately, they cut it down to Tyrion only travelling with Varys, then Jorah and none of his best scenes were included, including one where Jorah lies and attempts to barter passage with Tyrion as captive with a rich widow of a Master and fails and Tyrion does it just by telling the truth, offering everything from his words to his cock for Danerys when he gets to Meereen and all he wants in return from her is to rape and kill his sister.
Over the later seasons(after they started ignoring GRRM), it seems like they made it more obvious who was good and who was evil, when characters used to be morally grey.
I just rewatched GoT and I thought it made no sense for Tyrion to go back and kill his father. Now it makes sooooo much more sense. Didn’t realize that D&Ds negligence went back so many seasons
'POST-BONED' Shay?! Brilliant, I'm using that.
Bet you won't.
I feel like the reason they removed the tysha reveal was because she is just a story in tyrions past that isn't mentioned much in the show. Why would she be? Yet in the books, where we see tyrions thoughts, she is constantly on his mind. It's a big part of his character they couldn't adapt properly because you can't see into his mind like in the books.
I feel like Shae was intended to be kinda like tysha in the show to account for that absence so she loves him for who he is.
I assumed they were going to have Shae love him without the jealous part, so when she betrays him, it comes out of left field. Tywin then has Shae killed, and has tyrion told just after he is sentenced as a final knife twist. Then when Jaime saves him, Jaime explains tywin gave her a choice - betray tyrion or be executed, so she betrays him, and he has her killed anyway. Then when tyrion confronts tywin, tywin calls her a whore etc etc crossbow to the gut.
I think that would have been better than what we got - it allows for vengeful tyrion but still removes tyshas subplot and potentially tyrion falling out with Jaime but if it was framed just right maybe you could say Jaime knew what was going on the whole time and didn't stop it? I dunno, the Shae aspect still has issues.
Perhaps they could add some little detail, like some token Tysha could´ve given to Tyrion on their wedding night (like a flower, a scarf, a ring, some embroidery, their wedding ribbon) We could see Tyrion looking at this token from time to time, to represent his feelings for her, and that she is in his mind.
@@vilwarin5635 Could even be a non-physical token, such as a catch phrase or quote. He could have some tradition that he always observes and people ask his about it two or three times each season, each time getting more and more of the story out to the audience. The big reveal is teased from earlier on, and it would have a kind of constant presence that you can't otherwise get from the show's purely diegetic presentation of information.
They mentioned it in the first three seasons at least once in each and removed it in the fourth.
Or, you know, they could have just called back to the Tysha story in the previously on, like they do whenever they continue a seasons' old arc.
@@LicoriceLain that would've been just a reminder for the audience wich is not replacement for an actual characterization of how important she was for him. i mean they did something like what you said to justified mad queen daenarys and look at the mess we got.
i like the idea of a token that was always by his side. They could've had a scene with bronn, pod or even varys asking the meaning of said token (after seasons of seing it without knowing) and it would've drove the point home.
I would of loved to of seen Dinklage portraying Tyrions darker side he has later on in the books but I guess they would rather see him as an idiot then villainous. The writer's once again proving why they failed the show.
Would of loved to of seen? Writer‘s? Wtf man learn english
@@BuggyDClown-pc7sc 😭😭 "mummy the bad man on the Internet can't be arsed to spell check himself and because I am such a smart person I have to waste my time to tickle my ego" 😭😭😭 get a grip bitch
As someone who has not read the books, I found this so illuminating. Thanks for taking the time to produce such a clear explanation of a thoughtful reflection on the effects of omitting key elements from the book. I really appreciate this.
I appreciate the view Linda!
Excellent analysis. I realized that Tyrion had become bland after season 4, but I attributed it to his arc ending with the death of Tywinn, and his becoming Hand of the Queen. He'd killed his tormentor, and finally been given the position of respect he'd always deserved. Tyrion arc over. From then on he was just a minor supporting character, a redundant advisor type.
Now I see that there was unmined depth to his story that could have made him a main character for several more seasons. But they fucked it up for the reasons you stated.
I specifically remember the foreshadowing for Shae and was confused when it was treated as her actually loving him. i thought it was obvious she wanted a better life situation and saw it as a mutual transaction
I too have always felt that leaving out Jamie’s confession about Tysha screwed with Tyrion’s arc, since he is far darker in the books.
Yes, he became a morally good paladin. The paladin/boyscout personality is super played out, it's crazy to me how writers still uses this gimmick. Jon Snow was a goddamn paladin the whole series, one of the most boring protagonists in recent memory. Then Tyrion all of a sudden " but the people", "I love my brother, my sister, my queen, etc..".. Such a goddamn waste
And made it pointless why Tyrion went to confront his father.
Turned out all the characters were static. Or rolled back entirely.
These little but meaningful things in the books being replaced or completely ignored and discarded from the show was the first red alert to David and Dan's surface understanding of the whole story. Too bad we didn't see it sooner.
basically they removed all of tyrion’s complexities, most likely bc he’s a fan fave and they’d rather he‘d be seen as a hero as opposed to the morally grey, even a straight up awful person he is in the books.
in the books, both tyrion AND dany are going dark and it’s likely he will be more of an enabler of her morally questionable and reprehensible actions than the good angel on her shoulder holding her back like he’s portrayed in the show. i bet some of those dark dany things will even be his idea.
In the end, if the final twist of the series is this "evil queen" facade... Then HBO not only butchered the story, but also spoiled us. Do you really think it's worth to read 3k pages in the next 10 years or so (because Martin will sure take his time to release the last book), all that... if you already know the final twist?
R of course it’s worth reading because whatever happens in the books will be much better written and make much more sense
and i never sad dany going mad would be the final twist, just that she’s going down a darker path.
@@mimiHTcat but the mad queen is obviously the final twist. If Martin follows this concept, if he goes with Christ Snow, King Bran, etc... I honestly think this is not something interesting at all. Think about it, this series introduced dark fantasy to many people, the core concept is how dark fantasy subverts and twists fantasy cliches. But, if the end of this dark fantasy is abour a martyr hero, Daenerys becoming evil because of her bloodline, Bran as the destiny "child who was promised", etc... These are fantasy cliches. Martin is struggling to write this kind of generic crap and you are still hopeful? Good luck
R i don’t believe it’ll be a ‘twist’ as she is already going down a darker path as of the end of the most recent book and there are still 2 more to come, and i don’t believe she’ll be as blatantly crazy/evil as she is in the show. she’s going to gradually go down that path and it won’t be a shock when she does something extreme.
grrm is all about grey morality and ambiguity. pretty much every character in the books is morally grey and complex and capable of both good and terrible things. tyrion is a much worse person for example, jon is more morally grey and cunning.
dany will do something villainous, i have no doubt about that. something unforgivable - burning KL will be her doing. but it won’t be so abrupt and it will be better written, and there will likely be some degree of ambiguity or complexity surrounding it.
Sick editing dude. The Dumbledore bit and the #1 Dad haha
I burst out laughing at the #1 Dad part, that was top quality.
That willy wonka "stop. don't" caught me off guard
Vengeful Peter Dinklage would of been awesome
10:20
In the book's Tyrion killed Shay because she was in his father's bed, but also because she called him..."My Giant Lannister." It seemed as if she were mocking him. She always called him that when they were alone, but at that moment it enraged him. That is the reason he killed her.
"Gold hands are so cold, women's hand are so soft"
Certainly the exact quote but something along those lines, as he strangles her.
"for hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm." iirc
GRRM has referred to Tyrion as the villain
"He kills Shay then confronts his father on the shitter." Hahahahaha I'm not sure why it did, but this completely broke me and I burst out laughing until I cried.
18:30 " ..fans are going to cry bullshit..."
Oh, if you only knew how prophetic your words would become.
Varys is CEO of knowing what hes doing when he takes Tyrion by Tywins bed chamber
As someone who didnt read the books, this is fascinating. Seems like there were a lot of hints that the character development was going downhill while leaving the books behind
You’re a great storyteller and a smart fuckin dude. Sky is the limit for you my friend 🤘
This omission infuriated me when I watched. It was the signal everything was going downhill.
"Tyrion is noticably shooketh"
This omission ruined the Lannister's ending in the GoT series. The siblings relationship to each other just would be different through to the end.
First sign that the showrunners didn't know what they were doing.
Fantastic Video! I wondered "why, did they leave Jamie's confession out?" I never realized just how much this trickle/effected later seasons. Thanks for posting this!
I don't understand why the writers thought that we wouldn't still love Tyrion if he changed into a darker character. Tywin and Cersei are my favorite characters BECAUSE they're dark and complex! Complex characters are what made the show great!
But people loving and defending those types of characters is what makes the world very screwed up, I can understand liking a character for what they bring to the show or whatever but the fact that people are always saying how much they love these clearly disgusting to their core characters is just weird and screwed.
@@Heartshapedbox81 I mean I don't defend either character. They just make for good TV. I'd rather have a complex evil character like Cersei or Tywin than a vapid one.
"They didn't want their fan favorite character to do morally questionable things..."
Meanwhile, Danny burns 1,000,000 people alive for no reason, while we get this painfully sterilized, neutered version of Tyrion who just stops being a character after season 5.
I've never read the books, but man, as much as I like T.V. Tyrion (at least he first 4 seasons of him), I think I like the sounds of book Tyrion more. The idea of this highly morally ambiguous character, who sometimes is extremely merciful and emotionally sensitive, and other times is ruthless and vindictive, is very intriguing to me. It's rare a single series follows a single character through the turbulence of being a good guy, a bad guy, and then a redeemed bad guy, usually they just jump in somewhere in the middle.
The idea of Tyrion starting off as a (mostly) good guy, who is emotionally abused to the breaking point where he goes full villain, building up Danny as the "savior" of the world, not really caring if she's good or bad as long as she's different from what he has already known, only to turn on her in a moment of clarity when he realizes what a monster she really is, and what a horrible person he was to have ever encouraged or turned a blind eye to her cruelty... I mean, eat your fucking heart out, Darth Vader, that would be one of the most epic character arcs in the history of fiction, no exaggeration.
Duncan Van Ooyen not just turning a blind eye, but pressuring her into killing them all
Do yourself a favour and read the books. I've read them twice and am watching the show now. The show's okay, the books are much better.
@@filipe2444 Since making this comment I've been going through the books via Audible. And as I suspected, I do like book Tyrion more. I like the book version of a lot of things, in fact lol
you should read the books,the insane level of detais is well insane
@@alphagamer9505 Yeah I've been going through the audio books, and while I'll fully admit that I'm probably missing some of the finer details since I'm not actively paying attention as much as I would if I were reading the physical books, I am enjoying it more than the show. Tyrion is a lot more interesting and complex, I quite like Jamie's characterization, and a lot of the battles are more interesting too.
For example, I like the battle of The Wall when the Wildlings attack Castle Black. I like that it takes place over several days, and is slow and progressive, like a real war. Each new attack by the Wildlings is met by a different answer from the Night's Watch, and it's interesting to see the gradual escalation of warfare.
On the battlefield Tyrion couldn't really do anything to save Jamie.
If he yelled stop or waved his hands, he would have just been alerting Daenerys and the Dothraki to Jamie's charge at Daenerys.
Plus it's unlikely that Jamie would have even heard him, with everything that was going on around them.