The one thing I loved about the trial in the books was that Taena Merryweather was the only person to actually lie at the trial, all the other evidence was stuff Tyrion actually said and did
@@Argos-xb8ek Yeah, he used one to (mildly) poison Cersei. Edit: The moment he poisons her is when he's letting her know Renly and Stannis are at war with each other (Clash of Kings, chapter 25 if you wanna check it out)
@@Argos-xb8ek Pycelle just listed the poisons that were missing, there's also Widow's blood which could have been used to poison Tywin before Tyrion killed him. (mostly a fantheory but I find it compelling at least). the idea I was trying to get across though is if he never stole a poison from Pycelle, he'd have more of a defence for not stealing the others, not that he actually stole all the poisons Pycelle lists
White they were all speaking the truth, it was taken out of context and clearly distorted in his sisters favour. Many of them knew very well how out of context what they were saying was.
One moment from the books I was surprised to not see mentioned was the moment after Jaime confesses about the Tysha deception. Jaime then asks Tyrion if he killed Joffrey, and Tyrion (falsely) confesses to it. Until that moment, Tyrion had thought that Jaime was the only person he could trust, but when he is told that that trust has been broken, he strikes out to hurt Jaime in the only way he knows how, by making himself a monster in the eyes of the only person who has always loved him.
One of the most emotional scenes in the whole show for me is when Oberyn is telling Tyrion how he saw him as a baby and was “disappointed” because he isn’t the monster that everyone said he was. It shows why Cersei hates Tyrion so much and gives insight into how sad and lonely his childhood must’ve been. Tyrion is probably the most sympathetic character on the show. He was set up for a great character arch, but it’s too bad the last few seasons turned him into an absolute moron
That's because D&D have absolutely no idea how to write for different characters, especially intelligent ones. Notice that after they ran out of source material, basically every single character was written the same way. Gone were the nuances that make each so fun to read and journey with, as they only served to babble exposition and move their garbage version of the story to the next plot point, which usually involved as much CGI and spectacle possible to hopefully distract casual/dim viewers from the lack of cohesive storytelling. Suddenly, Tyrion's charm and sarcastic wit vanished as he became the bland hand! Remember when Littlefinger and Varys were playing the game at a level higher than anyone else? Nah, they both uttered flat dialogue as they made the most obvious errors that were the polar opposite of how they had always operated.etc.
In the book I lost all sympathy for Tyrion when he killed Shay. He's a villian through and through. A sympathetic compelling villain to be sure at least in the beginning.
@@shadowbannedaccont9479 she's a literal child! She was a peasant being coerced by nobles! She had no choice! Tyrion knew his father Tyrion knew his sister... He knew she was going to be used against him and he held it against her. Shay did not deserve to die!
I think one of the things that always felt poetic about the "I wish I was the monster that you think I am" is that it kind of directly relates to the advice he gave Jon at the start of the series. "Never forget what you are. The rest of the world won't. Wear it like armor, and it will never be used against you." It both echoes the sentiment and highlights its fallacy. The world did not forget what Tyrion was. The people of King's Landing did not forget what he was. And yet, by admitting that he wished he was the monster they thought him, he admits that he failed to wear it like armor, and in the end, what he was did end up hurting and being used against him. In this scene, Tyrion fails to follow the same advice he gave Jon, and by claiming he was only on trial for being a dwarf, he contradicts the idea that if he "wore it like armor" it could never be used against him. Because whether he wore it like armor or not, he would've still ended up in that Kangaroo court.
exactly. I think it was touched on a bit in the video, but he claims, or at least implies, and thinks, that he wears it like armor, when he really does (understandably) wear it more like a chip on his shoulder, always trying to outwit and insult those that "poke the bear", so to speak, so that he can feel power, even if humiliating and enraging them in the process. that being said, and in his defense, I think that cersei and tywin were the ones that hated him from the get go, and maybe slightly sealed his fate as a result. bc try as he might to embrace being a dwarf And a Lannister with his uncle(s?) encouraging his tumbling and dragon dreams and adventuring spirit, tywin was always there to quash those paths, and lead him only towards being a bitter and cruelly cunning man like himself, while cersei was always there to put him down as well, and lower any self worth he tried to gain for himself. so while he may have done many wrongs later on in life, his self victimization still began from a cycle of him Knowing that they hate him, when he 'never did anything wrong' in the first place. I worry that this just sounds like more of tyrion's own self victimization, or justifications, but I guess I've just always been able to sympathize with his justifications, and tended to believe them? like, sure he ousts slynt to kind of get rid of cersei/baelish's pawn, but in addition to doing it for his own protection as new (temp) Hand, he also tells himself that he's doing it as Justice for Ned and the Starks against his evil sister/nephew, and the evil regime that he's "being forced" to Lead. even going so far as to ensure his bones are sent back to winterfell. almost specifically For Catelyn. despite her arresting him and starting this war on false info, he really doesn't bear much ill will towards her. he gets where she's coming from, and sees how she acts with lysa, and so instead is only ever bitter towards lysa, who more honestly deserves it. and he never even follows through with his threats towards the Vale. he could've armed the mountain clans and sent waves of berserkers and lannister soldiers against the red gate, to try and raze their fields as well, and/or blockade their ports to starve them out, but instead, he mostly kept his new clan friends with him as personal guards, and did the bare minimum to pay his debt and arm them a bit better, but still mostly left the Vale to remain neutral until they could be brought in peacefully. he may bear resentment towards individuals, but he's not a genocidal war criminal like his father wants him to be, and he's mostly proud of that fact!
Another point about Tysha's idealization, and how this reflects on Tyrion's view of women, is his inability for a second to stop and think what that whole situation was like for his "love". He is so engrossed in putting his pride, his humiliation, his hatred in such high esteem, that he is unable to see how a fourteen year old girl was abused by possibly a dozen soldiers and by a young man she probably loved. At no time has Tyrion thought about how the situation could have marked a fourteen-year-old girl, who one day simply went to visit her lover and ended up going through all of that. Most likely, to her, the entire event was a cruel game of nobles trampling down commoners. Not only hating Tyrion for being a part of it, but in her eyes, the planner. In his idealization, he has never felt empathy, not even petty, for the girl he claims he still loves. And that's why I think, Tysha is alive, and we'll see her show up to put the last nail in Tyrion. The last mirror that will reflect him as a son of his father.
Wow, I always thought of Tysha as like "representing something," But you're right. For all we know she's still alive, so she could actually play an active role in the plot still.
There's a theory that in the books she's a certain prostitute in Bravos who will only sleep with patrons after she marries them (then annuls the marriage a few days later) this prostitute also talks wistfully about waiting for her husband to return. I think its implied she's not quite sane either. Admittedly she's probably just a random character but I kinda hope this prostitute does turn out to be Tysha
Tyrion self pities himself so much he feels no true empathy for her. It's the one thing that makes me really hate him, It's as if his pain over thinking she was a whore was more than Tysha literally being raped by a dozen men and then the love of her life... I hate men with these mindsets. How on earth does Tyrion make himself a victim when he raped his lover. Like no matter what, even if she was a whore, he raped her... He really doesn't think of her as a sentient person just a character in his story. I feel like everything about Tyrion is excusable but this. I hope he pays for it in the end and Tysha is alive and faces him off and he realises how much he killed another person's soul and only thought of himself. I feel like if Tyrion saw Tysha again he would want to jump into her arms without thought that he killed her mentally and emotionally if she's alive. Seeing her coldly turn him down and tell him exactly what he did to her would be sweet. Hopefully it would break Tyrion enough to see the truth of his ways
I think Tyrion's threats in the show are mostly to people we dislike, so we feel they are justified than scary. When he slaps or humiliates Joffery, it is satisfying, not scary. When he threatens Cercei it is deserved because Cercei is vindictive where Tyrion is sensitive. The show really make Tyrion an impossibly noble man with his 'sins' being the more forgivable kind like debauchery or drunkenness, he's vulgar but doesn't rape, he drinks a lot but he's not an alcoholic, he's proud but not narcissistic. The show Tyrion is extremely easy to love (is my favourite) but the book Tyrion is someone I actually fear. Especially after the trial. Him wanting to kill Varys in the most vicious ways (someone who, afaik, has always respected him) being an example of how sinister he truly becomes. Also, the Shae in the show seems to truly love him which has to make him tender hence the positive growth post-trial, but in the books, he was convinced she was only with him for his status and money which could turn him extremely vindictive going forward.
Well, wanting to kill Varys isn't that bad. Despite all of his noble talk to Eddard in book 1 or Kevan in book 5, he has yet to prove with actions that he's anything but a scheming asshole trying to keep his power and get more.
I really enjoy that you're focusing on how the characters are in the books as I find many of them are very different in the show. IMO part of why the show's ending failed was because the showrunners pushed the characters to make choices that might've made sense for the characters in the books, but didn't make sense for their counterparts in the show. I hope you do more of these, ASOIAF has so many rich characters to analyze :)
It’s a pretty minor comment but I absolutely loved what you said about “if it were as easy as believing something rational therapy would be very easy” I think so many people miss this when trying to console others in grief or just when they’re having a rough time.
Small things have complex defense mechanisms. Tyrion surviving to adulthood in that world is a miracle by any method. Tyrion sees something smaller or lower than himself and he treats it the way he wishes he was treated.
I love that you’re using the book version of Tyrion. He’s one of my fave characters ever and I feel like the book fleshes out his motivations and perspective.
I think you understate how much more prideful Tyrion is in the books, when he gives his "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth" speech he talked about beating Tommen first because he wants to emulate Tywin
THANK YOU for focusing on the REAL STORY and characters from the books. Small detail, but during Tyrion's trial...the one true knight,Ser Balon Swann was the one person who spoke on his behalf.
I think Tywin's use of Shae to hammer the last nail in Tyroin's coffin in the trial had to bring him right back to when Tywin had both Tyrion and Tysha raped as a price for Tyrion's disobedience. He had found something he wanted to fulfill his emotional needs - Shae - and his father took that thing, twist it in Tyrion's eyes, and made it a weapon of Tywin's own. He never had a particularly realistic view of his relationship with Shae (here I am speaking of the books, where he believes himself in love with her and while he knows deep down that she is not in love with him, he idealizes the relationship) and this brought that reality front and center. Once again, in his mind, he had found some way of filling that vacuum left by his sense that no one loves him and Tywin turned that very thing against him. So much of Tyrion's psychology has its origin in the rape of Tyrion and Tysha by Tywin. If he had ever had the potential to trust others it was shattered in that instance because of Jaime's complicity in the deception around Tysha. His father cast him in the role of a villain in a very visceral way by forcing him to participate in a gang-rape, solidifying that sense of monstrosity that I think he has always believed about himself behind all of his front-facing bravado of "owning" what people call him. He internalized it until it became true, and it starts with Tysha. Leaving that out was a huge error in the show. And let me be 100% clear here. A child being forced to perform a sex act under his father's orders is being raped. The whole Tysha situation is a horror, but it is *Tywin's* horror.
Let's write 4 paragraphs pitying Tyrion who never felt an ounce of empathy for Tysha and only pitied himself. Whom he thought she deserved the 15 men gangraping her including her lover because she was a whore. Tyrions only anger is that she wasn't a prostitute... Other than that he doesn't give a fuck that Tysha was raped even by himself. Fuck it, he goes on to murder Shae who is a child prostitute in the books and is terrified of him. But yeah Poor Tyrion the rape victim amirite? Tyrion literally portrays no empathy for Tysha just views her as something terrible that happened to him. If Tysha ever sees Tyrion again I hope she puts the final nail in his coffin. Also... You're the son of one of the most powerful men in the world you can refuse to rape a woman... What would Tywin do? Kill Tyrion? He couldn't and wouldn't or he would have as a child. Sorry but I'd rather die than rape someone. Tyrions a monster 😅 Tyrion wants to be his father in the books. He even threatens to rape Tommen brutally 😊. Tyrion is a rapist, Tyshas not the only one he's raped, he's a serial rapist so why you feeling sorry for him lmfao. He had an innocent bard murdered and made into stew to be consumed because he was paranoid Shae slept with him. She didn't...also sorry but unless Tyrion was anally raped 15x there is no comparison... He coulda said no they literally wouldn't have done shit. They couldn't and Tyrion was well smart enough to know that. He was under NO threat 😅 that's why it's so hard to face. He simply was told to participate. Hence why he excuses it "she was a whore" AND??? Being told to rape your whore is not the same as being gangraped 15x by soldiers and then your own husband 😊😊😊 Tyrion feels NO SHAME or anything else he only cares that Tysha "didn't love him" he thought she deserved it until he found out she wasn't a prostitute. Then still he only feels sorry for himself not for the woman who's soul he murdered- love from a real life Tysha.
@@Shannon-vv6rrI think you are forgetting that Tyrion was literally a CHILD. If a girl was forced to rape her lover at 11 or 13, you would pity her (speaking as a woman myself)
21:15 You really misunderstood this scene. Tyrion is not actually angry with Cersei, Tyrion is tricking her. Cersei thinks she has discovered Tyrion's lover, but has the wrong girl. By pretending he is devastated, Tyrion is protecting Shae, his real love, because Cersei won't keep looking for her now that she thinks she has her hostage. This also yields political benefit for him, because Tyrion has tricked Cersei into thinking she has some hold over him that is actually illusory.
I agree, i should've explained my point better. He does need to go along with the trick BUT he can also sensibly try to dissuade Cersei's paranoia. He doesn't need to go quite so spiteful as he does. There is some logic to doing so but my point was also that he, emotionally, can't help trying to be like Tywin and trying to hurt his sister. The motives are partly rational but also personal
True but the book also highlights how what he did was wrong. It makes it clear (imo) that if he'd not acted like Tywin but instead with more emotional intelligence he would've gotten the sane if not better outcome. I feel this way because his actions lead to an innocent girl being whipped, publicly shamed, and forced out of the city. It also lead to Tywin having a way to shame and dismiss Tyrion after his most heroic deed. It also lead to Kevin truly believing Tyrion killed Joffery (if I'm not mistaken the "turn your joy into ashes" line was what convinced Kevin tho I could be miss remembering). This is contrasted to if he played along and still let cerci believe shatiya was his whore without the tywin-esc need for dominance and revenge which would've still lead cerci to believe she had one up on Tyrion without any of the negatives I discussed. It may Also have lead to cerci not immediately thinking tyrion killed Joffery tho that's conjecture to the fullest as it's still very well possible cerci would've accused Tyrion
@@mylittlethoughttree I think you were right, I don't think his anger/threat was an act to sell that Cersei had caught the 'real' person he loved. He was genuinely angry and genuinely meant the threat to Cersei, because of how close she came to actually harming Shae. Her intent was enough to 'declare war' in that sense, not whether or not she actually harmed Shae or not. And I think if he wanted to trick Cersei into thinking she had hold over him, he would have submitted to her and pleaded mercy. Instead, this was him establishing that she cannot threaten or intimidate him without consequence, and her moves to control him by hurting him will only lead to her own suffering from his retaliation.
In the books, the situation with Janos Slynt was largely at Tywin's behest. Tywin hated the idea of Janos Slynt getting Harrenhal because it was a former royal seat and Slynt was the son of a butcher.
Yeah, that and the dismissal of Selmy (and Ned’s death, for that matter) were seemingly part of why he felt like he needed someone in King’s Landing to correct the mess Cersei and Joffrey were making
I don't know how he's supposed to finish it now that his planned ending was butchered by the show. I can't imagine the pressure he must feel now that he knows everyone hates where he was trying to go (even if they probably wouldn't have if he'd been the one to do it). I know that a lot of people said they're fine conceptually with what happened and just hate the execution, but... if I were GRRM, that would just make me feel even worse, because now it's like people are expecting me to be able to take this thing they hate and make them love it. And on top of it, people keep bringing it up every time he does an interview (or they used to, no clue what's happening now). Must be really difficult for him.
I think the most important expression of Tyrion's rage and spite pre-ADwD, which I'm surprised you overlooked, is that he has a bard murdered and made into stew because he believes Shae is sleeping with him.
Eh, less because she's sleeping with him, more because the bard was trying to blackmail Tyrion with the info that he kept a woman while he was acting hand of the king. The real issue was what the bard wanted. If it was just gold or silver it would be fine, but he wants a place at the wedding, which Tyrion has no control of. He was offered a lesser prize, but insisted that he would only keep his mouth shut if he could play at the wedding. That is what caused Tyrion to have him murdered. While naturally he doesn't want anyone else touching Shae, and has ugly men, eneuchs, and sheep lovers as her guards for that reason, singers are known to have big mouths, and worse he knew that Tyrion's true woman was Shae, rather than his decoy Aliyayah.
Fantastic analysis once again. Tywin, Tyrion and Cercei (his disappointing kids) are quite similar, especially when it comes to pride and the desire to prove themselves and hold visible power. Which makes loads of sense,ofc.
There was a quote, that kept coming up in another series called Black Sails, that sums up Tyrion's arc of starting to fatalistically embrace the way the outside world sees him, not just 'wearing it like armor' as he put it at the start, but also using it as his weapon: "If you insist on making me your villain...I'll play the part!" And just like in that show, that path likely won't lead to any victory worth having for Tyrion, especially since at its end lies his inevitable confrontation that he's turned almost entirely into Tywin - the man he hated and killed. As for your concluding ramble, as someone who also has a less-than-ideal dad, shall we say, what I eventually learned was to admit what his strengths are and believe and admit to myself as to how I've inherited and picked up on them - then focus on improving them. In that way you move past the reasons, that you hate your dad, avoid the usual trap of 'being the opposite of my dad' and instead focus on the things that you genuinely have to admit you find admirable about him (no matter how small). And you focus on them through your own self-improvement, not only making yourself better each time you do so but also giving yourself less and less reason to hate your parent every day you do improve yourself. Then, one day, especially if those admirable things brought you good fortune in your life, you'll find the person who you once were, and who once hated your own dad, be so incredibly distant from who you are now - a genuine improvement on your parents.
@Loonie thank you for making this point. I lost my father earlier this year and didn’t have the best relationship with him as he hurt a lot of people. But I as well didn’t want to fall into the “be everything my dad isn’t” trap. Because he did have qualities I admired. And I didn’t want to be angry at him the rest of my life. So it further validates my efforts to honor the good attributes about him that I see in myself as liberation from that anger.
I enjoyed your analysis and agree with many things, but also have couple of comments: 1) I was hoping you will focus a bit more on the last book (a Dance with Dragons), because I think there we start to notice a change in Tyrion that is very interesting and could be very positive. After he runs away from Westeros he is at a very dark place, probably his lowest. This is depicted (in the book) by him treating the girl in the brothel so horribly. But a bit after that he meets Penny and I think with her the author wants to show that there is hope for the better even in the darkest moments. We see a change starting in him, since Penny opens his eyes to a very different way of thinking. She manages, for example, to convey the idea that laughter (even when laughed at) may be not such a bad thing. I see him influenced so much by her world view (towards the end of the book), that I think he could finally let go of his anger and develop into a better person. 2) I also think that may be you (and here I mean people in general) pay too much attention on what a person says and not what he does. Actions are telling, not words. Looking at some of his actions: he jumps between young Griff and the stone people; he takes Penny with them when she has no one around; he saves Jorah; he takes both of them (Penny and Jorah) when he runs away; and most of all: he thinks, but he dare not tell Penny that her animals are forfeited (although all the time he has cruel thoughts about them being turned into bacon and so on...). It may be argued that he does all those things for some scheming reasons, but I think people do not operate like that. A person may later use for his own profit some of those that he had helped in the past, but at the moment of helping nobody thinks "oh, Jorah may be useful if I want to escape, so I have to help him now". We are more govern by emotions than we like to admit. Travelling and struggling together with someone develops empathy that will make you simply willing to help him, even if you do not recognize it as such. So Tyrion may look much more calculating than he actually is, since he likes to think about his actions as rational and him very clever, but this is in hind site.
I somewhat agree. I think Penny definitely is there to emphasise Tyrion's potential to grow... I hope he goes onto do exactly that, but I also feel like it might be a potential that he doesn't fulfil. Really, we'll have to see in the next book. I think Tyrion does kind things, but he always had. It doesn't necessarily mean he's moving in a positive direction...yet
@@mylittlethoughttree Thank you for your replay. I agree that it is a potential that he may not fulfill, I simply felt it needed more attention, may be its own separate numbered chapter. I would say the effect of meeting Penny (for Tyrion) is similar to Jamie meeting Brienne. I am curious to see you video on Jamie and your thoughts on his relationship with his sister - here I mean in the books (since it is so different and in the show not so interesting).
@@mylittlethoughttree I worry that the Penny stuff may be a case of too little too late. Like Tyrion does something horrible to Penny, maybe even kills her. And only then realizes that he has become the same monster his father has.
When I was younger I found the more I hated my parents, the more I became like them. It was only after I let that hate go that I could escape that cycle of hate feeding me into becoming them. Maybe that's normal, maybe not. Idk
Deserve-level issues always go beyond conscious thoughts about oneself. It took me years of therapy to finally understand that, because I'd been told by my abusers that I was lucky that due to my disability - autism in my case - that my parents hadn't simply ditched me at a group home. And most of my abusers were teachers and school administrators and my peers. People I either couldn't avoid or had to answer to. When you're told horrible things about yourself by people in positions of authority, it becomes even harder to not believe them, especially when you're a child. They become fundamental truths in the minds of those who are being subjected to such abuse, with most acts of rebellion being the only expressions of agency that allow the abused to contradict those seeking to subjugate or control them. Those negative beliefs about oneself feel almost like a skin-tight parasite that adheres like a second skin so seamlessly that it becomes increasingly difficult to separate the negative beliefs instilled by abusers from the empirical truth of who a person is.
I appreciate how you emphasized that victims of abuse generally don't become abusers themselves. I don't think you had to reiterate it *quite so much* but I get why you did. This *is* the internet and somebody will still probably miss that part :) I think you nailed Tyrion's personality and motivations. He is very similar to Tywin but neither of them would ever ever admit it since they're (almost) always at-odds. He's a lot darker in the books but I don't think those moments or quotes would have come across well on a TV show. He's spiteful and vicious in the show but takes it out on unsympathetic and irredeemable characters, like Janos Slynt and Meryn "fuckin" Trant
Janos slynt was controlled by Cersie so wanted her control less and Meryn trant was hitting Sansa which is the greatest bargaining chip the Lannister had
The Tysha experience was a deeply traumatizing experience as well, for Tyrion. I cannot imagine being forced to watch your love raped over and over and then be forced to do it yourself as the final act. It was a horrible act of psychological abuse for Tywin to have inflicted on his own child. Tywin was a horrible parent to his children. What he inflicted on his own children is just unconscionable to me.
I am a gay man, and I’ve always felt a kinship to Tyrion. Ironically, I have the nicest, most loving, and supportive family ever. However, I have felt the pull to wear my queerness like armor. It’s helpful and yet tricky. It can actually make me feel less connected to my surrounding culture because it’s a certain level of constant defensiveness. I’m proud to be queer, but I have been trying to separate from external perceptions having any persuasion on my current expression. This is a very important video essay. Well done.
Book Tyrion is,as most characters in asoiaf are, a grey character. He does many good things. He also had a singer turned into stew sooo. I just can’t wait to read the rest of this tale if it ever gets finished.
I think Tywin's motivation for hating Tyrion is a belief that Tyrion may actually be Aegon's bastard. Aegon was at Casterlly Rock around the time of Tyrion's conception. In canon, Tyrion has pale blond hair in contrast to his siblings golden hair. Tywin may only be claiming him because he doesn't want to appear weak, because couldn't protect his wife from the king, or cuckold, because his wife would actually cheat. It could be why he is so dead set that Tyrion would never inherit.
ASOIAF Tyrion is so much more interesting than show Tyrion. D&D, among all of the other bad decisions they made, totally wasted Peter Dinklage in the later seasons. All he became was "I drink and I know things" punchline. Also, that line, "I drink and I know things" is so incredibly cringe. Why it is popular, o have no idea. Well, actually I do, but it shouldn't be. The writers made that dumb line a microcosm of Tyrion and that take made him a much less compelling and less rich & nuanced.
I think they actually failed at even that. He's not particularly intelligent or wise in most of his decision making in the last two seasons at least. That would be more understandable if there was a compelling reason for this, but there is no reason for it. It's just a shift in characterization with no real justification.
just discovered this channel and i love it! could you please please please do any of the roys from succession? would love an analysis on kendall and logan
Bro, thank you so much for you’re video. I understood a lot of the suppressed rage in my self thanks to your last 2 videos. Keep up the great work! Im looking forward to your Jamie video, who’s my favorite pov. I’m ready to learn more about why I sympophise with the Lannister man so much, although I really dispise a lot of their actions.
I to have house rabbits around in case of an emergency or supply line shortage, you are left with quite a tasty meal! I thought I was the only one who did this but now I know even therapists do it.
I mean, isn't it completely understandable that being labeled a monster throughout your life, no matter what you do and despite being very intelligent and emotionally vulnerable, you'd have at least some level of a selfish motivation? I don't think that means he doesn't truly care or empathize with the other cripples, bastards, and broken things - but defending them is absolutely defending himself. Ed.: this was an early thought and I think you explored it brilliantly throughout. And admittedly, having an empathy for Tyrion borne out of my own experiences, I felt wicked defensive to the idea that he was NOT empathetic (merely because he sought to gain through his showings). Double ed.: having just finished rererereading ASOS, Tywin "writ small," indeed, but without surviving Tytos as a lord father. But for real: imagine how Tywin would react to the world around him if he was a dwarf. I bet you a lot more deplorable than Tyrion.
Absolutely loved this analysis, your exploration of the messiness of people, and your end thoughts about healing after trauma were wonderful. One small criticism I would have of it, coming from the more literary side, is that the analysis is based on what is psychologically healthy/unhealthy in our world. Due to the cultural, political, technological and other differences between our reality and Tyrion's, I think many of his actions, particularly the one's that teeter towards the power hungry or Machiavellian or Tywin-esque might be more justified as psychologically appropriate for his reality. Is killing your father Oedipal if he is trying to kill you? Is pretending that your sister caught your real lover when in fact she didn't the aggressive wish-fulfilment of a victim, or just the smart action against another rival likely to kill you? I ask because I don't know either! You may still be absolutely right, and you're point that Tyrion creates many of his own enemies is absolutely on the money! Nonetheless I would point you to Tyrion's "smash the beetle" speech to demonstrate the Tyrion's perplexed thoughts about the world he inhabits, and how that genuinely insightful perspective of the world might change a person psychologically (check it out on SiggiJay's UA-cam, channel some of the comments on it are beautifully insightful).
Well you're certainly not wrong. Although ny thinking around the oedipal killing was less about the motives for doing it, rather than "this is a thing I did, how do I now make sense of that experience/what would having done that begin to mean to me?" If that makes sense. I think his reasons for killing Tywin were logic-driven, how the experience affects him though, that might be different
I discovered a long time ago that I tend to have the same thinking patterns as my father. I forgave him for all the mistakes he made raising me. I realized I would’ve done the EXACT same things with the exact same rationalizations.
“Never forget what you are, the rest of the world will not, wear it like armour.” I never really thought that was a good life to live by, people called Jamie oathbreaker, and kingslayer, a man without honour; when we see him first he is embodying Tyrion’s advice, when this is supposed to be Jamie at his worst. And Jamie is one example Tyrion is another.
It's interesting about Tyrion trying to be a "hero" when he is Hand to the King. I'd argue his entire notion of what a hero is, is skewed. There is his father, who he looks to for approval, but knows in his heart is cruel. So he's really just trying to be a less cruel version of Tywin--not himself. That and his other hero figure (that we know of) is Jaime. And Jaime has lied to him about his heroic vs shameful actions (that he is actually most proud of killing Aerys and most ashamed of fooling Tyrion about Tysha). I am quite interested to see where his character goes in the books. I felt he was a bit too broken down in "A Dance of Dragons". I do hope he can find more constructive role models, and that perhaps Jaime can relate some wisdom to him about his own journey to becoming a hero as well.
Personally I think a lot of Tywins hatred of Tyrion comes from projection. As Tyrion said (even though he might not really mean it, but he also knows where to put the knife- from my own experience I assume that comes as a second nature if you grow up with a narcisstic parent): "Why father, I think I am you, writ small." And he is, down to his vices. And I think that is the second big reasons for Tywins hatred (the first being that Tyrion was born and Tywin lost his beloved wife AND was mocked). And Tyrion really resents Tywin for this projection. And then Tyrion himself goes on about Cersei: "She is not half as smart as she thinks she is!" Very reflective sentence there. Maybe he will notice sometime. Just his time with Illyrio was so frustrating to me. Dany and even Arya gleaned so much from the man, but Tyrion takes this "cheese mongerer" business at face value. I think he failed a test there.
It was funny how Tyrion was internally dismissive of Ilyrio and kept thinking he's a moron, despite also realizing that there's something he wasn't saying about (f)Aegon.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Essp. ironic since Tyrion is very much parroting his father on his "voyage", really showing that he indeed is Twynn "writ small". I do not subscribe to Aegon Blackfyre, though. I do think the narrative would be more interesting (and ironic) if Dany was THINKING Aegon was fake (there are so many clues to that and if real he really would have a better claim, so it would be a nice push over the edge for her if she found out after working against him for some time that he was the real deal- I am still on those treasons- I think she will "know" them because she will commit them) but if he would be the real deal (and not the perfect prince Illyrio and Varys were hoping for but more like if Viserys had had the upbringing to be the perfect prince). But we will see.
Loving all of your movies/Psychology content!!, I have been smashing through them since discovering the Tywin vid , love your work 🙌 👌 Cersei next please 😄
When Tyrion threatened Cersei with that line about "I will hurt you for this... your joy will turn to ash," he was just trying to sell the idea that Cersei had his real mistress. That's as far as he was thinking, he was trying to act the way Cersei would expect him to act, if she DID have his mistress. He didn't want to give away that she had screwed up. That's the great irony of the situation. That threat haunted Cersei for the rest of the story and eventually made her go crazy and think Tyrion was hiding in the castle years after he was gone. That threat had huge consequences, and it he didn't even mean it.
Honestly, when it comes to just explaining his intentions with Cersei I don't think she would've believed him ANYWAY since she is set to think he is evil like their father. Also if he didn't I guess betray her so much it would've helped that trust and belief he wouldn't hurt the kids. She also betrays him all the time as well. No way for him to win with anyone but Jamie his brother. After he gets betrayed by him, everyone is against him and can't get out of the image or name Imp. He just gave up on trying.
I believe the quote about Tyrion's mind being a whetstone was in AGOT Tyrion II, not Jon I. The Jon I chapter had the quote about armoring yourself with your weakness so it doesn't hurt you.
Ahhh damn, you are correct. When I edited the video, I was copying and pasting text boxes that came up, then just changing the writing in them...so I reckon I must've forgot to change the reference part of the text. Good spot!
For some reason, Tyrion reminds me a lot of Tom Holland’s Spider-Man, especially from Homecoming. Both of them use humor and pride to cope with trauma, but they also have a lot of false beliefs. Both of them act like heroes, but at the end of the day, they’re really just trying to get recognition and appreciation from others in order to fuel their ego.
Hi, book nerd here. I love your analysis of Tysha, but would add one thing. You mentioned how Tyrion pines for her after he learns she wasn't a prostitute. While this is of course true, I always found Tyrion's pinning in the book ambiguous, as he often simply says "I miss my wife" without clarifying which wife he is missing in that moment
Tyrion couldn't think of anyone to call to his defense in his trial for killing Joffrey. I wish he had thought of the Tyrell's. Particularly Garlon and his wife, who were sitting beside Tyrion and Sansa during the feast. Garlon is on Tyrion's side. He tells Sansa that Tyrion is a good man who saved the city. He said Tyrion was a bigger man than he appears. I hope Garlon comes to Tyrion's defense in future books. I believe Tyrion will do some evil things in the books, but I'd love to see him find out he's not an actual monster and redeem himself in the end.
I just started the books , Tyrion was one of my favorite characters, the season where he was running the show at kings landing was one of my favorites.
Now that i think about it, the books probably will end with Daenarys burning King's Landing with dragonfire, after Tyrion goes full Darth Sidious on her repeating "DEW IT!" so that he can get the ultimate revenge on society and nobility.
I'm living proof, as a survivor of tons of abuse, physical, emotional, and sexual, who didn't allow the pain to transform him into a monster, that the abused doesn't have to become the abuser. It's a hell of a journey, but far from impossible.
“The longer you treat a person or people as a monster, the easier they will find it to fill that role. Such is the self-fulfilling prophecy of persecution.”
The book makes it very explicit that Tyrion believes that Tywin made him acting hand because he had given up Jaime (who had just been captured by the Starks) for dead. Do you think this is true? What does it say about Tyrion that he believes this?
One thing I think is missed with psychoanalysis is the individuals as they relate to the greater social structure they find themselves in. Tywin doesn't live in the world we live in, where liberalism and capitalist hegemony have made the individual the premier social subject. He lives in a world much like Europe in the High Middle Ages where the family is the premier social subject. His motives are not entirely driven by his own desires and fears but also the looming responsibility of perpetuating his family's centuries-old position of prominence.
He's not a Targaryen the timeline doesn't match up. Joanna and tywin were married in 263 ac where it was said the mad king aerys took "liberties" on joanna. Jaime and cersei, the firstborns, weren't born until 266 ac and Tyrion wasnt born until 273 ac
I know this video is pretty old, but I think Penny is meant to be a reflection of how Tyrion views himself. Or at least how he used to. I think his full transition into a villain will have to do with him killing her directly, or having a hand in her death, and betraying her. The last thing he has is his sense of pride. Killing “himself”, killing Penny, will turn him into the villain for good.
My friend, your tags on the video say Tywin Lannister, not Tyrion. Great video so far, loving this series. Will you do a Stark next or will you work through all the Lannisters first? I'd love to hear your take on Arya and the implications of her changing faces.
Ever seen _Harvey..??_ It stars James Stewart, who plays one chill cat...who's bestfriend just so happens to be a...a well... ...a six foot tall rabbit, that only he can see...well I'll say 99% of the time because there was this one time that I could have sworn that I saw...umm anyways talk about a classic..!! Unless I'm very wrong, it's right up your alley and you should get a kick out of it..!! ^__^ Btw there was a remake and I think it might still be free on YT...it's wonderful as well and the lead absolutely killed it...but, you really should see the original first, if you could find it I should say... The mothers in the original was truly rememberable..!! Enjoy, mad lad..!! ((=))
I think you are missing a crucial point of Tyrions psyche: he is in many ways a reworking by grrm on Richard iii. Richard starts his play after helping his side win a brutal civil war risking his life again and again and suffering Ptsd and multiple battle trauma. Then after all that he realizes that because he’s “not made for sportive tricks” he’s still not accepted. Riii decides to claim the kingship and “overbear persons who are better than myself.” What choice does he have? What choice does Tyrion have? The world is always determined to marginalize and other him even after he risks his life, just like Richard. Does Richard hate himself? I doubt it “Richard loves Richard, I am I.” Does Tyrion hate himself. Doubt it.
8:39 I kind of disagree. not about Jon, or about Bran. But I feel he develops a genuine empathy and care for Penny. There's pity still, and I'd even agree the pity is overwhelming, he views her as a child. But he seems to genuinely understand and contemplate how she feels on a deeper level than any other character in the books barring maybe Shae- though this wasn't in an empathetic way but a cynical one.
"Empathy is about having compassion…" No! That's sympathy. Empathy is the ability to know what others feel. Ramsay has empathy; he knows how others suffer and enjoys it, but he has no sympathy for them.
Ramsay doesn't have empathy, he is a psychopath. He takes pleasure in hurting others because all of his emotions other than hatred and disgust are blunted.
Empathy is shown in how much compassion and understanding we can give to another. Sympathy is more of a feeling of pity for another. Empathy is our ability to understand how someone feels while sympathy is our relief in not having the same problems.
@@alienishere002 Empathy is the ability to perceive, to understand. The word says nothing about reaction to the perception. Whether it is pity or enjoyment makes no difference.
Just stumbbled on these GoT videos and I have been enjoying them, amazing work! I feel particularly bad about how Tyrion's story was altered in the TV series, maybe because I very much relate and now many that in more mundane way remind me of Tyrion in his antics from the book. I got ADHD with some autism type symptoms, dyslexia and my short term memory is clearly poorer than it needs to be which is typical for ADHD, mine just happens to be a bit more stronger than usual. I got dyslexia diagnosis in my teens, and rest closer to my 30's, so I spent my school years in this place where people who back then didn't really know what was going on with me assuming my uneven school performance, forgetfullness, writing struggles, emotional vunerability and my tongue always stumblinmg on itself were possibly due to some moral failing, lack of effort or maliciousness. Don't get me wrong, most teachers and adults seemed to really trying to genuienly nurture and nudge me towards things they thought would be helpful, and rarely anyone was actually mean. But I got a lot of "you should put little bit more effort and work harder next time (aka stop being lazy)" and most hurtfully "You should start to care about things more, the fact that you didn't do good/forgot/etc shows you don't care enough". There was even a teacher who got so tired of me forgetting things, that they started to suspect infront of the who class that I did lie about forgetting things and tried to torment her or something. But I did care, and I did work hard. I tried to do everything I could to remember and do better but kept failing miserably. When I did manage to do things right, it was proof to people I had done something wrong in other times, just to add to my pains when I failed at something again. So, I eventually stopped working hard and stopped caring about topics that were hard for me. If I wasn't going to be good enough know matter how much I worked and there wasn't going to be even recognition that I worked at all, then maybe I shouldn't care. I don't "care" enough anyway, the say, and is it worth to keep the anxiety building? So I did started to make up lies when I forgot something. I'll be called liar anyway, so why bother with the truth if no one believes it? It feels less bad to be called a liar when you actually lie, dammit. I selfsabotaged, I tried hard and thought of me a lot more horrendously than anyone ever could. And things were pretty fucked for a while. I was lucky to find help and friends and community to get myself in better place, but I still struggle, there is still mess. And I know of many who lost the battle. Who got to the point where their motivation to do better just wasn't enough anymore. One of those ends up in drugs, violence, criminality and eventually to a suicide. Being seen as a problem, bad, defected, always somehow coming short, even in it's lightest forms can turn in to something terrible, and compilacated and messy. As much as I love the positive underdog stories I love how raw and real the book Tyrion's story is, with all of the mess it has. How complicated it is to try to be better when others and you yourself have kinda dammed you and you are grappling with it, trying to be better person but you are not and it is just hard. How the anger and resentment can poison your thoughts and actions, how the rejection hurts and how hard it is to accept yourself and live with yourself, and so on and so forth it goes. I don't care if Tyrion will be hero or villain in the end, I feel like that story of pain and growth and backtracks and all the hard bits is worthy to tell. Important to tell. So as show kept loosing that complexity, I really feel frusturated with that.
I love the idea that Tyrion is the bastard son of Aryes and Joanna. The fact the dragons left him alone to free them when they were in the pit says loads. Essentially that would also mean he’s the true hair to the iron throne.
The problem for blaming Tywin for Tyrion's attitude is that Tyrion is an unreliable narrator. We know he is a hedonistic drunk who has wasted the best years of his life drinking and whoring despite his great mind. His father treats him coldly, but keeps trying to give him positions of power and authority, even King's Hand. He is entitled and vengeful even as a child, like when he shook his snake in the turtle soup, and has an authority problem in a world where that is extremely dangerous for the whole family. In the books he fantasises about killing Jamie, the only one who treated him well, even after Jamie has just saved his life just because Jamie kept a secret from him, and he also fantasises about raping his sister as punishment for her accusing him of killing Joffrey, even though she genuinely believes it because he had already threatened to kill Joffrey in an argument. He also fantasises about killing Penny because he is offended by her innocence and sweetness, projecting his own self-loathing because he cannot be those things. I'm not sure Tywin does ever say he wants Tyrion dead, it's Tyrion who makes that accusation when Tywin is trying to give him a noble and honourable duty to lead his barbarians into battle (both Tywin and Jamie lead their men into battle). Tywin is equally cold and verbally abusive at times to all his children, so it is unclear to the extent that Tywin does hate him and how much Tywin is to blame for Tyrion's inner demons.
? Tyrion is a dwarf, making him lead his men isn't a "honorable duty" and isn't comparable of someone physically able and trained doing it. I really don't like people using unreliable narration to claim actually the reality is the complete opposit of what the POV character says. Tywin hates Tyrion for being a dwarf and his wife dying in chilbirth, that was there before the drinking. It's not that complicated, Tywin hates Tyrion on principle, Tyrion acts hedonistically to spite him for the mistreatement, Tywin now hates him for that too, Tyrion does more to spite him, repeat ad infinitum. And lying abouth your wife, who your father ordered to be gangraped infront of you, not being a prostitute and caring abouth you is a bit more than a little secret... "Hey I keept curcial info abouth your most traumatic experiance secret, no hard feelings right". Tyrion is a little piece of shit, but the reasons for that are clearly explained.
Q : you said Tyrion in the book was different than the one in the show right..?? Well Dinklage's portal of Tyrion, was my favorite in the show, like many others I'm sure...I had planned to begin reading the books, and I'll admit that it was to experience more great moments with the character. So my question is, will I be very disappointed with investigating my time in those pages, or is it still worth a read despite any dissimilarities..?? Cheers..!!
I wouldn't say disappointed, he's still a fan favourite in the books, you just have to expect him to be more morally grey. It's kind of tragic to read his slow descent into what could be villainy... depends what happens in the next book still really, he might be able to change his trajectory
@13:27 Don't you dare give Dave and Dan an out. They had PLENTY of opportunities to hand the reigns to new writers or to hire help... not to mention as much time as they could have wanted to wrap things up in a satisfying way. They refused over and over. If they were burned out, they should have walked away... not destroyed a beloved series with a rushed and horribly written ending. Their own hubris ruined GOT, not their inability to get help.
I think you misheard me, that was kinda my point. Got burned out WITHOUT THE SENSE to bring anyone else in for help...at least I think that's what I said, I can't remember 🤔
Are Little Thought Tree and Implicitly Pretentious the same person? I swear their voices are slightly different but their speaking style (and topic approach) is extremely similar and it fools my mind
The one thing I loved about the trial in the books was that Taena Merryweather was the only person to actually lie at the trial, all the other evidence was stuff Tyrion actually said and did
He didn't take Maester Pycelle's Poisons did he?
@@Argos-xb8ek Yeah, he used one to (mildly) poison Cersei.
Edit: The moment he poisons her is when he's letting her know Renly and Stannis are at war with each other (Clash of Kings, chapter 25 if you wanna check it out)
@@akashika I know he gave her sweet sleep to keep her drowsy and weak but then I thought Pycelle said he stole Tears of Lys too
@@Argos-xb8ek Pycelle just listed the poisons that were missing, there's also Widow's blood which could have been used to poison Tywin before Tyrion killed him. (mostly a fantheory but I find it compelling at least). the idea I was trying to get across though is if he never stole a poison from Pycelle, he'd have more of a defence for not stealing the others, not that he actually stole all the poisons Pycelle lists
White they were all speaking the truth, it was taken out of context and clearly distorted in his sisters favour.
Many of them knew very well how out of context what they were saying was.
One moment from the books I was surprised to not see mentioned was the moment after Jaime confesses about the Tysha deception. Jaime then asks Tyrion if he killed Joffrey, and Tyrion (falsely) confesses to it. Until that moment, Tyrion had thought that Jaime was the only person he could trust, but when he is told that that trust has been broken, he strikes out to hurt Jaime in the only way he knows how, by making himself a monster in the eyes of the only person who has always loved him.
Yeah, I vaguely hinted but, in hindsight, it's the perfect example to emphasise. Maybe I'll comeback to it in Jaime's video
One of the most emotional scenes in the whole show for me is when Oberyn is telling Tyrion how he saw him as a baby and was “disappointed” because he isn’t the monster that everyone said he was. It shows why Cersei hates Tyrion so much and gives insight into how sad and lonely his childhood must’ve been. Tyrion is probably the most sympathetic character on the show. He was set up for a great character arch, but it’s too bad the last few seasons turned him into an absolute moron
That's because D&D have absolutely no idea how to write for different characters, especially intelligent ones. Notice that after they ran out of source material, basically every single character was written the same way. Gone were the nuances that make each so fun to read and journey with, as they only served to babble exposition and move their garbage version of the story to the next plot point, which usually involved as much CGI and spectacle possible to hopefully distract casual/dim viewers from the lack of cohesive storytelling. Suddenly, Tyrion's charm and sarcastic wit vanished as he became the bland hand! Remember when Littlefinger and Varys were playing the game at a level higher than anyone else? Nah, they both uttered flat dialogue as they made the most obvious errors that were the polar opposite of how they had always operated.etc.
In the book I lost all sympathy for Tyrion when he killed Shay. He's a villian through and through. A sympathetic compelling villain to be sure at least in the beginning.
@@scottbrowne9024 He'll likely be a negative influence on Daenerys if he comes to work for her
@@scottbrowne9024 she earned that choking
@@shadowbannedaccont9479 she's a literal child! She was a peasant being coerced by nobles! She had no choice! Tyrion knew his father Tyrion knew his sister... He knew she was going to be used against him and he held it against her. Shay did not deserve to die!
I think one of the things that always felt poetic about the "I wish I was the monster that you think I am" is that it kind of directly relates to the advice he gave Jon at the start of the series. "Never forget what you are. The rest of the world won't. Wear it like armor, and it will never be used against you."
It both echoes the sentiment and highlights its fallacy. The world did not forget what Tyrion was. The people of King's Landing did not forget what he was. And yet, by admitting that he wished he was the monster they thought him, he admits that he failed to wear it like armor, and in the end, what he was did end up hurting and being used against him.
In this scene, Tyrion fails to follow the same advice he gave Jon, and by claiming he was only on trial for being a dwarf, he contradicts the idea that if he "wore it like armor" it could never be used against him. Because whether he wore it like armor or not, he would've still ended up in that Kangaroo court.
exactly. I think it was touched on a bit in the video, but he claims, or at least implies, and thinks, that he wears it like armor, when he really does (understandably) wear it more like a chip on his shoulder, always trying to outwit and insult those that "poke the bear", so to speak, so that he can feel power, even if humiliating and enraging them in the process.
that being said, and in his defense, I think that cersei and tywin were the ones that hated him from the get go, and maybe slightly sealed his fate as a result. bc try as he might to embrace being a dwarf And a Lannister with his uncle(s?) encouraging his tumbling and dragon dreams and adventuring spirit, tywin was always there to quash those paths, and lead him only towards being a bitter and cruelly cunning man like himself, while cersei was always there to put him down as well, and lower any self worth he tried to gain for himself.
so while he may have done many wrongs later on in life, his self victimization still began from a cycle of him Knowing that they hate him, when he 'never did anything wrong' in the first place.
I worry that this just sounds like more of tyrion's own self victimization, or justifications, but I guess I've just always been able to sympathize with his justifications, and tended to believe them?
like, sure he ousts slynt to kind of get rid of cersei/baelish's pawn, but in addition to doing it for his own protection as new (temp) Hand, he also tells himself that he's doing it as Justice for Ned and the Starks against his evil sister/nephew, and the evil regime that he's "being forced" to Lead. even going so far as to ensure his bones are sent back to winterfell. almost specifically For Catelyn. despite her arresting him and starting this war on false info, he really doesn't bear much ill will towards her. he gets where she's coming from, and sees how she acts with lysa, and so instead is only ever bitter towards lysa, who more honestly deserves it.
and he never even follows through with his threats towards the Vale. he could've armed the mountain clans and sent waves of berserkers and lannister soldiers against the red gate, to try and raze their fields as well, and/or blockade their ports to starve them out, but instead, he mostly kept his new clan friends with him as personal guards, and did the bare minimum to pay his debt and arm them a bit better, but still mostly left the Vale to remain neutral until they could be brought in peacefully. he may bear resentment towards individuals, but he's not a genocidal war criminal like his father wants him to be, and he's mostly proud of that fact!
Another point about Tysha's idealization, and how this reflects on Tyrion's view of women, is his inability for a second to stop and think what that whole situation was like for his "love". He is so engrossed in putting his pride, his humiliation, his hatred in such high esteem, that he is unable to see how a fourteen year old girl was abused by possibly a dozen soldiers and by a young man she probably loved. At no time has Tyrion thought about how the situation could have marked a fourteen-year-old girl, who one day simply went to visit her lover and ended up going through all of that.
Most likely, to her, the entire event was a cruel game of nobles trampling down commoners. Not only hating Tyrion for being a part of it, but in her eyes, the planner. In his idealization, he has never felt empathy, not even petty, for the girl he claims he still loves.
And that's why I think, Tysha is alive, and we'll see her show up to put the last nail in Tyrion. The last mirror that will reflect him as a son of his father.
this is fucking brilliant
Wow, I always thought of Tysha as like "representing something," But you're right. For all we know she's still alive, so she could actually play an active role in the plot still.
There's a theory that in the books she's a certain prostitute in Bravos who will only sleep with patrons after she marries them (then annuls the marriage a few days later) this prostitute also talks wistfully about waiting for her husband to return. I think its implied she's not quite sane either. Admittedly she's probably just a random character but I kinda hope this prostitute does turn out to be Tysha
Tyrion self pities himself so much he feels no true empathy for her. It's the one thing that makes me really hate him, It's as if his pain over thinking she was a whore was more than Tysha literally being raped by a dozen men and then the love of her life... I hate men with these mindsets. How on earth does Tyrion make himself a victim when he raped his lover. Like no matter what, even if she was a whore, he raped her... He really doesn't think of her as a sentient person just a character in his story. I feel like everything about Tyrion is excusable but this. I hope he pays for it in the end and Tysha is alive and faces him off and he realises how much he killed another person's soul and only thought of himself. I feel like if Tyrion saw Tysha again he would want to jump into her arms without thought that he killed her mentally and emotionally if she's alive. Seeing her coldly turn him down and tell him exactly what he did to her would be sweet. Hopefully it would break Tyrion enough to see the truth of his ways
@@Shannon-vv6rr "Men can't ever be victims of sexual abuse"
Wom*n moment. How classy.
I think Tyrion's threats in the show are mostly to people we dislike, so we feel they are justified than scary. When he slaps or humiliates Joffery, it is satisfying, not scary. When he threatens Cercei it is deserved because Cercei is vindictive where Tyrion is sensitive. The show really make Tyrion an impossibly noble man with his 'sins' being the more forgivable kind like debauchery or drunkenness, he's vulgar but doesn't rape, he drinks a lot but he's not an alcoholic, he's proud but not narcissistic. The show Tyrion is extremely easy to love (is my favourite) but the book Tyrion is someone I actually fear. Especially after the trial. Him wanting to kill Varys in the most vicious ways (someone who, afaik, has always respected him) being an example of how sinister he truly becomes. Also, the Shae in the show seems to truly love him which has to make him tender hence the positive growth post-trial, but in the books, he was convinced she was only with him for his status and money which could turn him extremely vindictive going forward.
Well, wanting to kill Varys isn't that bad. Despite all of his noble talk to Eddard in book 1 or Kevan in book 5, he has yet to prove with actions that he's anything but a scheming asshole trying to keep his power and get more.
I really enjoy that you're focusing on how the characters are in the books as I find many of them are very different in the show. IMO part of why the show's ending failed was because the showrunners pushed the characters to make choices that might've made sense for the characters in the books, but didn't make sense for their counterparts in the show.
I hope you do more of these, ASOIAF has so many rich characters to analyze :)
It’s a pretty minor comment but I absolutely loved what you said about “if it were as easy as believing something rational therapy would be very easy”
I think so many people miss this when trying to console others in grief or just when they’re having a rough time.
Small things have complex defense mechanisms. Tyrion surviving to adulthood in that world is a miracle by any method. Tyrion sees something smaller or lower than himself and he treats it the way he wishes he was treated.
I love that you’re using the book version of Tyrion. He’s one of my fave characters ever and I feel like the book fleshes out his motivations and perspective.
If you watched the video before commenting, you would know.
I think you understate how much more prideful Tyrion is in the books, when he gives his "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth" speech he talked about beating Tommen first because he wants to emulate Tywin
He didnt talk about beating Tommen, it was much worse than that.
Yeah but going into detail about what he said would have gotten my comment removed
I mean he did in fact threaten to beat him. He just also threatened to do the other thing as well
Bruh, rape. he threatened to rape Tommen why is everyone pussyfooting around the word rape?
Actually he said he'd rape Tommen...
THANK YOU for focusing on the REAL STORY and characters from the books. Small detail, but during Tyrion's trial...the one true knight,Ser Balon Swann was the one person who spoke on his behalf.
I think Tywin's use of Shae to hammer the last nail in Tyroin's coffin in the trial had to bring him right back to when Tywin had both Tyrion and Tysha raped as a price for Tyrion's disobedience. He had found something he wanted to fulfill his emotional needs - Shae - and his father took that thing, twist it in Tyrion's eyes, and made it a weapon of Tywin's own. He never had a particularly realistic view of his relationship with Shae (here I am speaking of the books, where he believes himself in love with her and while he knows deep down that she is not in love with him, he idealizes the relationship) and this brought that reality front and center. Once again, in his mind, he had found some way of filling that vacuum left by his sense that no one loves him and Tywin turned that very thing against him.
So much of Tyrion's psychology has its origin in the rape of Tyrion and Tysha by Tywin. If he had ever had the potential to trust others it was shattered in that instance because of Jaime's complicity in the deception around Tysha. His father cast him in the role of a villain in a very visceral way by forcing him to participate in a gang-rape, solidifying that sense of monstrosity that I think he has always believed about himself behind all of his front-facing bravado of "owning" what people call him. He internalized it until it became true, and it starts with Tysha. Leaving that out was a huge error in the show.
And let me be 100% clear here. A child being forced to perform a sex act under his father's orders is being raped. The whole Tysha situation is a horror, but it is *Tywin's* horror.
Finally someone says it. Tyrion was raped in that scene.
Let's write 4 paragraphs pitying Tyrion who never felt an ounce of empathy for Tysha and only pitied himself. Whom he thought she deserved the 15 men gangraping her including her lover because she was a whore. Tyrions only anger is that she wasn't a prostitute... Other than that he doesn't give a fuck that Tysha was raped even by himself. Fuck it, he goes on to murder Shae who is a child prostitute in the books and is terrified of him. But yeah Poor Tyrion the rape victim amirite? Tyrion literally portrays no empathy for Tysha just views her as something terrible that happened to him. If Tysha ever sees Tyrion again I hope she puts the final nail in his coffin. Also... You're the son of one of the most powerful men in the world you can refuse to rape a woman... What would Tywin do? Kill Tyrion? He couldn't and wouldn't or he would have as a child. Sorry but I'd rather die than rape someone. Tyrions a monster 😅 Tyrion wants to be his father in the books. He even threatens to rape Tommen brutally 😊. Tyrion is a rapist, Tyshas not the only one he's raped, he's a serial rapist so why you feeling sorry for him lmfao. He had an innocent bard murdered and made into stew to be consumed because he was paranoid Shae slept with him. She didn't...also sorry but unless Tyrion was anally raped 15x there is no comparison... He coulda said no they literally wouldn't have done shit. They couldn't and Tyrion was well smart enough to know that. He was under NO threat 😅 that's why it's so hard to face. He simply was told to participate. Hence why he excuses it "she was a whore" AND??? Being told to rape your whore is not the same as being gangraped 15x by soldiers and then your own husband 😊😊😊 Tyrion feels NO SHAME or anything else he only cares that Tysha "didn't love him" he thought she deserved it until he found out she wasn't a prostitute. Then still he only feels sorry for himself not for the woman who's soul he murdered- love from a real life Tysha.
@@Shannon-vv6rrtrue
@@Shannon-vv6rrI think you are forgetting that Tyrion was literally a CHILD. If a girl was forced to rape her lover at 11 or 13, you would pity her (speaking as a woman myself)
@@Shannon-vv6rr I don't understand why you use smiley faces while describing rapes.
Fuck moving towards positive direction and improving. The fact that Tyrion survived all of this, that makes him a fucking hero. Take that🥊🥊
21:15 You really misunderstood this scene. Tyrion is not actually angry with Cersei, Tyrion is tricking her. Cersei thinks she has discovered Tyrion's lover, but has the wrong girl. By pretending he is devastated, Tyrion is protecting Shae, his real love, because Cersei won't keep looking for her now that she thinks she has her hostage. This also yields political benefit for him, because Tyrion has tricked Cersei into thinking she has some hold over him that is actually illusory.
I agree, i should've explained my point better. He does need to go along with the trick BUT he can also sensibly try to dissuade Cersei's paranoia. He doesn't need to go quite so spiteful as he does. There is some logic to doing so but my point was also that he, emotionally, can't help trying to be like Tywin and trying to hurt his sister. The motives are partly rational but also personal
True but the book also highlights how what he did was wrong. It makes it clear (imo) that if he'd not acted like Tywin but instead with more emotional intelligence he would've gotten the sane if not better outcome.
I feel this way because his actions lead to an innocent girl being whipped, publicly shamed, and forced out of the city. It also lead to Tywin having a way to shame and dismiss Tyrion after his most heroic deed. It also lead to Kevin truly believing Tyrion killed Joffery (if I'm not mistaken the "turn your joy into ashes" line was what convinced Kevin tho I could be miss remembering). This is contrasted to if he played along and still let cerci believe shatiya was his whore without the tywin-esc need for dominance and revenge which would've still lead cerci to believe she had one up on Tyrion without any of the negatives I discussed. It may Also have lead to cerci not immediately thinking tyrion killed Joffery tho that's conjecture to the fullest as it's still very well possible cerci would've accused Tyrion
@@mylittlethoughttree I think you were right, I don't think his anger/threat was an act to sell that Cersei had caught the 'real' person he loved. He was genuinely angry and genuinely meant the threat to Cersei, because of how close she came to actually harming Shae. Her intent was enough to 'declare war' in that sense, not whether or not she actually harmed Shae or not. And I think if he wanted to trick Cersei into thinking she had hold over him, he would have submitted to her and pleaded mercy. Instead, this was him establishing that she cannot threaten or intimidate him without consequence, and her moves to control him by hurting him will only lead to her own suffering from his retaliation.
Let's not forget that part where he threatened to rape Tommen. Completely unnecessary and reckless threat.
I saw it the same way as you. And also, he was truly angry at her for hurting Alayaya so horribly.
In the books, the situation with Janos Slynt was largely at Tywin's behest. Tywin hated the idea of Janos Slynt getting Harrenhal because it was a former royal seat and Slynt was the son of a butcher.
Yeah, that and the dismissal of Selmy (and Ned’s death, for that matter) were seemingly part of why he felt like he needed someone in King’s Landing to correct the mess Cersei and Joffrey were making
I love your naive optimism: expecting George RR Martin to ever finish his work
I don't know how he's supposed to finish it now that his planned ending was butchered by the show. I can't imagine the pressure he must feel now that he knows everyone hates where he was trying to go (even if they probably wouldn't have if he'd been the one to do it). I know that a lot of people said they're fine conceptually with what happened and just hate the execution, but... if I were GRRM, that would just make me feel even worse, because now it's like people are expecting me to be able to take this thing they hate and make them love it. And on top of it, people keep bringing it up every time he does an interview (or they used to, no clue what's happening now). Must be really difficult for him.
My bet is he's already written it but it won't be released until he dies
@@nicholascharles9625 That’s also my hope. We are probably just delusional but well…
@@nicholascharles9625 There's no way his publishers would allow that. He hasn't completed Winds yet.
@@shinyary2 not everything in the ending was George's idea.
I think the most important expression of Tyrion's rage and spite pre-ADwD, which I'm surprised you overlooked, is that he has a bard murdered and made into stew because he believes Shae is sleeping with him.
Yeah I had it in my notes to mention, not sure how I forgot
Eh, less because she's sleeping with him, more because the bard was trying to blackmail Tyrion with the info that he kept a woman while he was acting hand of the king.
The real issue was what the bard wanted. If it was just gold or silver it would be fine, but he wants a place at the wedding, which Tyrion has no control of. He was offered a lesser prize, but insisted that he would only keep his mouth shut if he could play at the wedding.
That is what caused Tyrion to have him murdered. While naturally he doesn't want anyone else touching Shae, and has ugly men, eneuchs, and sheep lovers as her guards for that reason, singers are known to have big mouths, and worse he knew that Tyrion's true woman was Shae, rather than his decoy Aliyayah.
Fantastic analysis once again. Tywin, Tyrion and Cercei (his disappointing kids) are quite similar, especially when it comes to pride and the desire to prove themselves and hold visible power. Which makes loads of sense,ofc.
I think Tyrion wants to be loved more than he wants to be feared - but when that doesn’t work, he turns to fear as the only other option.
There was a quote, that kept coming up in another series called Black Sails, that sums up Tyrion's arc of starting to fatalistically embrace the way the outside world sees him, not just 'wearing it like armor' as he put it at the start, but also using it as his weapon: "If you insist on making me your villain...I'll play the part!" And just like in that show, that path likely won't lead to any victory worth having for Tyrion, especially since at its end lies his inevitable confrontation that he's turned almost entirely into Tywin - the man he hated and killed.
As for your concluding ramble, as someone who also has a less-than-ideal dad, shall we say, what I eventually learned was to admit what his strengths are and believe and admit to myself as to how I've inherited and picked up on them - then focus on improving them. In that way you move past the reasons, that you hate your dad, avoid the usual trap of 'being the opposite of my dad' and instead focus on the things that you genuinely have to admit you find admirable about him (no matter how small). And you focus on them through your own self-improvement, not only making yourself better each time you do so but also giving yourself less and less reason to hate your parent every day you do improve yourself. Then, one day, especially if those admirable things brought you good fortune in your life, you'll find the person who you once were, and who once hated your own dad, be so incredibly distant from who you are now - a genuine improvement on your parents.
@Loonie thank you for making this point. I lost my father earlier this year and didn’t have the best relationship with him as he hurt a lot of people. But I as well didn’t want to fall into the “be everything my dad isn’t” trap. Because he did have qualities I admired. And I didn’t want to be angry at him the rest of my life. So it further validates my efforts to honor the good attributes about him that I see in myself as liberation from that anger.
Tyrions whole journey throughout Essos is my favorite part in Dance besides Cersei's fall from power and Reeks ordeal.
I enjoyed your analysis and agree with many things, but also have couple of comments:
1) I was hoping you will focus a bit more on the last book (a Dance with Dragons), because I think there we start to notice a change in Tyrion that is very interesting and could be very positive. After he runs away from Westeros he is at a very dark place, probably his lowest. This is depicted (in the book) by him treating the girl in the brothel so horribly. But a bit after that he meets Penny and I think with her the author wants to show that there is hope for the better even in the darkest moments. We see a change starting in him, since Penny opens his eyes to a very different way of thinking. She manages, for example, to convey the idea that laughter (even when laughed at) may be not such a bad thing. I see him influenced so much by her world view (towards the end of the book), that I think he could finally let go of his anger and develop into a better person.
2) I also think that may be you (and here I mean people in general) pay too much attention on what a person says and not what he does. Actions are telling, not words. Looking at some of his actions: he jumps between young Griff and the stone people; he takes Penny with them when she has no one around; he saves Jorah; he takes both of them (Penny and Jorah) when he runs away; and most of all: he thinks, but he dare not tell Penny that her animals are forfeited (although all the time he has cruel thoughts about them being turned into bacon and so on...). It may be argued that he does all those things for some scheming reasons, but I think people do not operate like that. A person may later use for his own profit some of those that he had helped in the past, but at the moment of helping nobody thinks "oh, Jorah may be useful if I want to escape, so I have to help him now". We are more govern by emotions than we like to admit. Travelling and struggling together with someone develops empathy that will make you simply willing to help him, even if you do not recognize it as such. So Tyrion may look much more calculating than he actually is, since he likes to think about his actions as rational and him very clever, but this is in hind site.
I somewhat agree. I think Penny definitely is there to emphasise Tyrion's potential to grow... I hope he goes onto do exactly that, but I also feel like it might be a potential that he doesn't fulfil. Really, we'll have to see in the next book. I think Tyrion does kind things, but he always had. It doesn't necessarily mean he's moving in a positive direction...yet
@@mylittlethoughttree Thank you for your replay. I agree that it is a potential that he may not fulfill, I simply felt it needed more attention, may be its own separate numbered chapter. I would say the effect of meeting Penny (for Tyrion) is similar to Jamie meeting Brienne. I am curious to see you video on Jamie and your thoughts on his relationship with his sister - here I mean in the books (since it is so different and in the show not so interesting).
@@mylittlethoughttree I worry that the Penny stuff may be a case of too little too late. Like Tyrion does something horrible to Penny, maybe even kills her. And only then realizes that he has become the same monster his father has.
When I was younger I found the more I hated my parents, the more I became like them. It was only after I let that hate go that I could escape that cycle of hate feeding me into becoming them. Maybe that's normal, maybe not. Idk
Deserve-level issues always go beyond conscious thoughts about oneself. It took me years of therapy to finally understand that, because I'd been told by my abusers that I was lucky that due to my disability - autism in my case - that my parents hadn't simply ditched me at a group home. And most of my abusers were teachers and school administrators and my peers. People I either couldn't avoid or had to answer to. When you're told horrible things about yourself by people in positions of authority, it becomes even harder to not believe them, especially when you're a child. They become fundamental truths in the minds of those who are being subjected to such abuse, with most acts of rebellion being the only expressions of agency that allow the abused to contradict those seeking to subjugate or control them. Those negative beliefs about oneself feel almost like a skin-tight parasite that adheres like a second skin so seamlessly that it becomes increasingly difficult to separate the negative beliefs instilled by abusers from the empirical truth of who a person is.
I appreciate how you emphasized that victims of abuse generally don't become abusers themselves. I don't think you had to reiterate it *quite so much* but I get why you did. This *is* the internet and somebody will still probably miss that part :)
I think you nailed Tyrion's personality and motivations. He is very similar to Tywin but neither of them would ever ever admit it since they're (almost) always at-odds. He's a lot darker in the books but I don't think those moments or quotes would have come across well on a TV show. He's spiteful and vicious in the show but takes it out on unsympathetic and irredeemable characters, like Janos Slynt and Meryn "fuckin" Trant
Janos slynt was controlled by Cersie so wanted her control less and Meryn trant was hitting Sansa which is the greatest bargaining chip the Lannister had
That's the downside to keeping my video scripts very loose, I sometimes ramble to a level where I'm labouring a point 😂
@@mylittlethoughttree It didn't detract from the video. I'd rather hear freeform talk than something highly scripted :)
The Tysha experience was a deeply traumatizing experience as well, for Tyrion. I cannot imagine being forced to watch your love raped over and over and then be forced to do it yourself as the final act. It was a horrible act of psychological abuse for Tywin to have inflicted on his own child. Tywin was a horrible parent to his children. What he inflicted on his own children is just unconscionable to me.
I am a gay man, and I’ve always felt a kinship to Tyrion. Ironically, I have the nicest, most loving, and supportive family ever. However, I have felt the pull to wear my queerness like armor. It’s helpful and yet tricky. It can actually make me feel less connected to my surrounding culture because it’s a certain level of constant defensiveness. I’m proud to be queer, but I have been trying to separate from external perceptions having any persuasion on my current expression. This is a very important video essay. Well done.
Book Tyrion is,as most characters in asoiaf are, a grey character. He does many good things. He also had a singer turned into stew sooo.
I just can’t wait to read the rest of this tale if it ever gets finished.
Tyrion is the most engaging character of the series. Not a hero, not a villain. His power comes from his family name and he knows it.
That first scene, the quote about being a bastard, is one of my favorite quotes of all time and favorite quotes to live by
I think Tywin's motivation for hating Tyrion is a belief that Tyrion may actually be Aegon's bastard. Aegon was at Casterlly Rock around the time of Tyrion's conception. In canon, Tyrion has pale blond hair in contrast to his siblings golden hair. Tywin may only be claiming him because he doesn't want to appear weak, because couldn't protect his wife from the king, or cuckold, because his wife would actually cheat. It could be why he is so dead set that Tyrion would never inherit.
*Aerys
ASOIAF Tyrion is so much more interesting than show Tyrion. D&D, among all of the other bad decisions they made, totally wasted Peter Dinklage in the later seasons. All he became was "I drink and I know things" punchline.
Also, that line, "I drink and I know things" is so incredibly cringe. Why it is popular, o have no idea. Well, actually I do, but it shouldn't be. The writers made that dumb line a microcosm of Tyrion and that take made him a much less compelling and less rich & nuanced.
I think they actually failed at even that. He's not particularly intelligent or wise in most of his decision making in the last two seasons at least. That would be more understandable if there was a compelling reason for this, but there is no reason for it. It's just a shift in characterization with no real justification.
just discovered this channel and i love it! could you please please please do any of the roys from succession? would love an analysis on kendall and logan
Bro, thank you so much for you’re video. I understood a lot of the suppressed rage in my self thanks to your last 2 videos. Keep up the great work! Im looking forward to your Jamie video, who’s my favorite pov. I’m ready to learn more about why I sympophise with the Lannister man so much, although I really dispise a lot of their actions.
I to have house rabbits around in case of an emergency or supply line shortage, you are left with quite a tasty meal! I thought I was the only one who did this but now I know even therapists do it.
I mean, isn't it completely understandable that being labeled a monster throughout your life, no matter what you do and despite being very intelligent and emotionally vulnerable, you'd have at least some level of a selfish motivation? I don't think that means he doesn't truly care or empathize with the other cripples, bastards, and broken things - but defending them is absolutely defending himself.
Ed.: this was an early thought and I think you explored it brilliantly throughout. And admittedly, having an empathy for Tyrion borne out of my own experiences, I felt wicked defensive to the idea that he was NOT empathetic (merely because he sought to gain through his showings).
Double ed.: having just finished rererereading ASOS, Tywin "writ small," indeed, but without surviving Tytos as a lord father. But for real: imagine how Tywin would react to the world around him if he was a dwarf. I bet you a lot more deplorable than Tyrion.
I was going to like the video anyways, but your house rabbit convinced me! 🐇 Very strong analysis! 👏
Absolutely loved this analysis, your exploration of the messiness of people, and your end thoughts about healing after trauma were wonderful.
One small criticism I would have of it, coming from the more literary side, is that the analysis is based on what is psychologically healthy/unhealthy in our world. Due to the cultural, political, technological and other differences between our reality and Tyrion's, I think many of his actions, particularly the one's that teeter towards the power hungry or Machiavellian or Tywin-esque might be more justified as psychologically appropriate for his reality.
Is killing your father Oedipal if he is trying to kill you? Is pretending that your sister caught your real lover when in fact she didn't the aggressive wish-fulfilment of a victim, or just the smart action against another rival likely to kill you?
I ask because I don't know either! You may still be absolutely right, and you're point that Tyrion creates many of his own enemies is absolutely on the money! Nonetheless I would point you to Tyrion's "smash the beetle" speech to demonstrate the Tyrion's perplexed thoughts about the world he inhabits, and how that genuinely insightful perspective of the world might change a person psychologically (check it out on SiggiJay's UA-cam, channel some of the comments on it are beautifully insightful).
Well you're certainly not wrong. Although ny thinking around the oedipal killing was less about the motives for doing it, rather than "this is a thing I did, how do I now make sense of that experience/what would having done that begin to mean to me?" If that makes sense. I think his reasons for killing Tywin were logic-driven, how the experience affects him though, that might be different
I discovered a long time ago that I tend to have the same thinking patterns as my father. I forgave him for all the mistakes he made raising me. I realized I would’ve done the EXACT same things with the exact same rationalizations.
I’m very curious about your take on Jamie. Book Jamie is my favorite character and how they handled him in the show was offensive.
Jamie fookin lannister
What's the differences?
@@plagueknight8026 Too many differences to describe in single comment, so I would suggest reading the books.
He has a Jaime Lannister video, go find it
Tyrion is probably the best Lannister but then again I don't know how much of a compliment that is 😅
“Never forget what you are, the rest of the world will not, wear it like armour.”
I never really thought that was a good life to live by, people called Jamie oathbreaker, and kingslayer, a man without honour; when we see him first he is embodying Tyrion’s advice, when this is supposed to be Jamie at his worst.
And Jamie is one example Tyrion is another.
It's interesting about Tyrion trying to be a "hero" when he is Hand to the King. I'd argue his entire notion of what a hero is, is skewed. There is his father, who he looks to for approval, but knows in his heart is cruel. So he's really just trying to be a less cruel version of Tywin--not himself. That and his other hero figure (that we know of) is Jaime. And Jaime has lied to him about his heroic vs shameful actions (that he is actually most proud of killing Aerys and most ashamed of fooling Tyrion about Tysha).
I am quite interested to see where his character goes in the books. I felt he was a bit too broken down in "A Dance of Dragons". I do hope he can find more constructive role models, and that perhaps Jaime can relate some wisdom to him about his own journey to becoming a hero as well.
Personally I think a lot of Tywins hatred of Tyrion comes from projection. As Tyrion said (even though he might not really mean it, but he also knows where to put the knife- from my own experience I assume that comes as a second nature if you grow up with a narcisstic parent): "Why father, I think I am you, writ small." And he is, down to his vices. And I think that is the second big reasons for Tywins hatred (the first being that Tyrion was born and Tywin lost his beloved wife AND was mocked). And Tyrion really resents Tywin for this projection. And then Tyrion himself goes on about Cersei: "She is not half as smart as she thinks she is!" Very reflective sentence there. Maybe he will notice sometime. Just his time with Illyrio was so frustrating to me. Dany and even Arya gleaned so much from the man, but Tyrion takes this "cheese mongerer" business at face value. I think he failed a test there.
It was funny how Tyrion was internally dismissive of Ilyrio and kept thinking he's a moron, despite also realizing that there's something he wasn't saying about (f)Aegon.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Essp. ironic since Tyrion is very much parroting his father on his "voyage", really showing that he indeed is Twynn "writ small". I do not subscribe to Aegon Blackfyre, though. I do think the narrative would be more interesting (and ironic) if Dany was THINKING Aegon was fake (there are so many clues to that and if real he really would have a better claim, so it would be a nice push over the edge for her if she found out after working against him for some time that he was the real deal- I am still on those treasons- I think she will "know" them because she will commit them) but if he would be the real deal (and not the perfect prince Illyrio and Varys were hoping for but more like if Viserys had had the upbringing to be the perfect prince). But we will see.
Absolutely love this video and the one about Tywin :) please keep them coming!! Great work and amazing analysis.
Tyrion will always be my favorite character from the series great video
I'd like your thoughts on Arya. I think there is a lot there; especially in the books.and Olenna.
Loving all of your movies/Psychology content!!, I have been smashing through them since discovering the Tywin vid , love your work 🙌 👌 Cersei next please 😄
When Tyrion threatened Cersei with that line about "I will hurt you for this... your joy will turn to ash," he was just trying to sell the idea that Cersei had his real mistress. That's as far as he was thinking, he was trying to act the way Cersei would expect him to act, if she DID have his mistress. He didn't want to give away that she had screwed up. That's the great irony of the situation. That threat haunted Cersei for the rest of the story and eventually made her go crazy and think Tyrion was hiding in the castle years after he was gone. That threat had huge consequences, and it he didn't even mean it.
Honestly, when it comes to just explaining his intentions with Cersei I don't think she would've believed him ANYWAY since she is set to think he is evil like their father. Also if he didn't I guess betray her so much it would've helped that trust and belief he wouldn't hurt the kids. She also betrays him all the time as well. No way for him to win with anyone but Jamie his brother. After he gets betrayed by him, everyone is against him and can't get out of the image or name Imp. He just gave up on trying.
I believe the quote about Tyrion's mind being a whetstone was in AGOT Tyrion II, not Jon I. The Jon I chapter had the quote about armoring yourself with your weakness so it doesn't hurt you.
Ahhh damn, you are correct. When I edited the video, I was copying and pasting text boxes that came up, then just changing the writing in them...so I reckon I must've forgot to change the reference part of the text. Good spot!
@@mylittlethoughttree It takes fans like me who are too obsessed with this story to notice these kinds of things. 😂
Absolutely yes to more asoiaf breakdowns!!
I made a playlist for Game of Thrones/ASOIAF character analyses! ua-cam.com/play/PLIrZsx9CxvcFZT1UMwGT1y3yK4t5AbjuS.html
For some reason, Tyrion reminds me a lot of Tom Holland’s Spider-Man, especially from Homecoming. Both of them use humor and pride to cope with trauma, but they also have a lot of false beliefs. Both of them act like heroes, but at the end of the day, they’re really just trying to get recognition and appreciation from others in order to fuel their ego.
Tyrion can be summed up mostly with one line...THEN LET ME BE EVIL
Great video as always! I would love a video about Jon Snow as well if you have the time and motivation for it 😊
A Joffrey one would be great 😃 I am enjoying the GOT vids, thank you for making them
Hi, book nerd here. I love your analysis of Tysha, but would add one thing. You mentioned how Tyrion pines for her after he learns she wasn't a prostitute. While this is of course true, I always found Tyrion's pinning in the book ambiguous, as he often simply says "I miss my wife" without clarifying which wife he is missing in that moment
Didn't he only have one? Shae never becomes his wife and he wouldn't call her that
@@destinyhntrSansa does
Tyrion couldn't think of anyone to call to his defense in his trial for killing Joffrey. I wish he had thought of the Tyrell's. Particularly Garlon and his wife, who were sitting beside Tyrion and Sansa during the feast. Garlon is on Tyrion's side. He tells Sansa that Tyrion is a good man who saved the city. He said Tyrion was a bigger man than he appears. I hope Garlon comes to Tyrion's defense in future books.
I believe Tyrion will do some evil things in the books, but I'd love to see him find out he's not an actual monster and redeem himself in the end.
I just started the books , Tyrion was one of my favorite characters, the season where he was running the show at kings landing was one of my favorites.
Now that i think about it, the books probably will end with Daenarys burning King's Landing with dragonfire, after Tyrion goes full Darth Sidious on her repeating "DEW IT!" so that he can get the ultimate revenge on society and nobility.
If you want a vision of Tyrion with power, look at Gregory House
Please do a video like this on Nate from Ted lasso, or Roy. Or any character from that show.
Love your videos, thanks!
Well you're in luck. I did one on Nate already!
@@mylittlethoughttree no idea how I missed it, thanks!
Overbearing father's create anxious but competent son's. I had a dad like tywin and I was a son like tyrion. Not a dwarf but I drink and I know things
An interesting theory about Penny and Tyrion is that Penny might be Tyrions daughter with Tysha. The idea is that Tysha left for Essos after the rape.
I'm living proof, as a survivor of tons of abuse, physical, emotional, and sexual, who didn't allow the pain to transform him into a monster, that the abused doesn't have to become the abuser. It's a hell of a journey, but far from impossible.
I believe it’s possible to feel empathy and be absolutely shitty at communicating it and this is the sense I got from the show at least
“The longer you treat a person or people as a monster, the easier they will find it to fill that role. Such is the self-fulfilling prophecy of persecution.”
The book makes it very explicit that Tyrion believes that Tywin made him acting hand because he had given up Jaime (who had just been captured by the Starks) for dead. Do you think this is true? What does it say about Tyrion that he believes this?
One thing I think is missed with psychoanalysis is the individuals as they relate to the greater social structure they find themselves in. Tywin doesn't live in the world we live in, where liberalism and capitalist hegemony have made the individual the premier social subject. He lives in a world much like Europe in the High Middle Ages where the family is the premier social subject. His motives are not entirely driven by his own desires and fears but also the looming responsibility of perpetuating his family's centuries-old position of prominence.
That's what he wants to believe, but, no. The way he mismanaged all hos kids goes againts that.
He's not a Targaryen the timeline doesn't match up. Joanna and tywin were married in 263 ac where it was said the mad king aerys took "liberties" on joanna. Jaime and cersei, the firstborns, weren't born until 266 ac and Tyrion wasnt born until 273 ac
Please do Cersei! :)
He wasn’t the prince they wanted but Tyrion was the prince who was promised. ❤️
What I always wondered, why family so powerful and set on perfect looks didn't just kill him when he was born and disfigured?
I know this video is pretty old, but I think Penny is meant to be a reflection of how Tyrion views himself. Or at least how he used to. I think his full transition into a villain will have to do with him killing her directly, or having a hand in her death, and betraying her. The last thing he has is his sense of pride. Killing “himself”, killing Penny, will turn him into the villain for good.
My fav character of all GOT
My friend, your tags on the video say Tywin Lannister, not Tyrion. Great video so far, loving this series. Will you do a Stark next or will you work through all the Lannisters first? I'd love to hear your take on Arya and the implications of her changing faces.
This is a sequel to a video he did about Tywin, I think he said he’s going to do the Lannisters
Starks are honarable fools as Robert described
Ever seen _Harvey..??_
It stars James Stewart, who plays one chill cat...who's bestfriend just so happens to be a...a well...
...a six foot tall rabbit, that only he can see...well I'll say 99% of the time because there was this one time that I could have sworn that I saw...umm anyways talk about a classic..!!
Unless I'm very wrong, it's right up your alley and you should get a kick out of it..!! ^__^
Btw there was a remake and I think it might still be free on YT...it's wonderful as well and the lead absolutely killed it...but, you really should see the original first, if you could find it I should say... The mothers in the original was truly rememberable..!!
Enjoy, mad lad..!!
((=))
I think you are missing a crucial point of Tyrions psyche: he is in many ways a reworking by grrm on Richard iii. Richard starts his play after helping his side win a brutal civil war risking his life again and again and suffering Ptsd and multiple battle trauma. Then after all that he realizes that because he’s “not made for sportive tricks” he’s still not accepted. Riii decides to claim the kingship and “overbear persons who are better than myself.” What choice does he have? What choice does Tyrion have? The world is always determined to marginalize and other him even after he risks his life, just like Richard. Does Richard hate himself? I doubt it “Richard loves Richard, I am I.” Does Tyrion hate himself. Doubt it.
Great work! Jaime next, please!
What an intro!🎉🎃❤
Tyrion is the epitome of a "broken man"
Yep he wants to be above them
8:39 I kind of disagree. not about Jon, or about Bran. But I feel he develops a genuine empathy and care for Penny. There's pity still, and I'd even agree the pity is overwhelming, he views her as a child. But he seems to genuinely understand and contemplate how she feels on a deeper level than any other character in the books barring maybe Shae- though this wasn't in an empathetic way but a cynical one.
I love your videos very detailed but you should do ramsey bolton im trying to explain tk a coworker about him and yeah
thank you for this
"Empathy is about having compassion…" No! That's sympathy.
Empathy is the ability to know what others feel. Ramsay has empathy; he knows how others suffer and enjoys it, but he has no sympathy for them.
Ramsay doesn't have empathy, he is a psychopath. He takes pleasure in hurting others because all of his emotions other than hatred and disgust are blunted.
Empathy is shown in how much compassion and understanding we can give to another. Sympathy is more of a feeling of pity for another. Empathy is our ability to understand how someone feels while sympathy is our relief in not having the same problems.
Ramsey is a sadist and a psychopath.
@@alienishere002 Empathy is the ability to perceive, to understand. The word says nothing about reaction to the perception. Whether it is pity or enjoyment makes no difference.
@@Leo_ofRedKeep not exactly what empathy is. It's more about comprehending someone's feelings.
Just stumbbled on these GoT videos and I have been enjoying them, amazing work!
I feel particularly bad about how Tyrion's story was altered in the TV series, maybe because I very much relate and now many that in more mundane way remind me of Tyrion in his antics from the book.
I got ADHD with some autism type symptoms, dyslexia and my short term memory is clearly poorer than it needs to be which is typical for ADHD, mine just happens to be a bit more stronger than usual. I got dyslexia diagnosis in my teens, and rest closer to my 30's, so I spent my school years in this place where people who back then didn't really know what was going on with me assuming my uneven school performance, forgetfullness, writing struggles, emotional vunerability and my tongue always stumblinmg on itself were possibly due to some moral failing, lack of effort or maliciousness. Don't get me wrong, most teachers and adults seemed to really trying to genuienly nurture and nudge me towards things they thought would be helpful, and rarely anyone was actually mean. But I got a lot of "you should put little bit more effort and work harder next time (aka stop being lazy)" and most hurtfully "You should start to care about things more, the fact that you didn't do good/forgot/etc shows you don't care enough". There was even a teacher who got so tired of me forgetting things, that they started to suspect infront of the who class that I did lie about forgetting things and tried to torment her or something.
But I did care, and I did work hard. I tried to do everything I could to remember and do better but kept failing miserably. When I did manage to do things right, it was proof to people I had done something wrong in other times, just to add to my pains when I failed at something again. So, I eventually stopped working hard and stopped caring about topics that were hard for me. If I wasn't going to be good enough know matter how much I worked and there wasn't going to be even recognition that I worked at all, then maybe I shouldn't care. I don't "care" enough anyway, the say, and is it worth to keep the anxiety building? So I did started to make up lies when I forgot something. I'll be called liar anyway, so why bother with the truth if no one believes it? It feels less bad to be called a liar when you actually lie, dammit.
I selfsabotaged, I tried hard and thought of me a lot more horrendously than anyone ever could. And things were pretty fucked for a while. I was lucky to find help and friends and community to get myself in better place, but I still struggle, there is still mess. And I know of many who lost the battle. Who got to the point where their motivation to do better just wasn't enough anymore. One of those ends up in drugs, violence, criminality and eventually to a suicide.
Being seen as a problem, bad, defected, always somehow coming short, even in it's lightest forms can turn in to something terrible, and compilacated and messy. As much as I love the positive underdog stories I love how raw and real the book Tyrion's story is, with all of the mess it has. How complicated it is to try to be better when others and you yourself have kinda dammed you and you are grappling with it, trying to be better person but you are not and it is just hard. How the anger and resentment can poison your thoughts and actions, how the rejection hurts and how hard it is to accept yourself and live with yourself, and so on and so forth it goes. I don't care if Tyrion will be hero or villain in the end, I feel like that story of pain and growth and backtracks and all the hard bits is worthy to tell. Important to tell. So as show kept loosing that complexity, I really feel frusturated with that.
I love the idea that Tyrion is the bastard son of Aryes and Joanna. The fact the dragons left him alone to free them when they were in the pit says loads. Essentially that would also mean he’s the true hair to the iron throne.
The other problem is that there are hints that Penny is working for Littlefinger
Great video
You don’t choose the Dwarf life, the Dwarf life chooses you.
Tryion is a hero
The problem for blaming Tywin for Tyrion's attitude is that Tyrion is an unreliable narrator. We know he is a hedonistic drunk who has wasted the best years of his life drinking and whoring despite his great mind. His father treats him coldly, but keeps trying to give him positions of power and authority, even King's Hand. He is entitled and vengeful even as a child, like when he shook his snake in the turtle soup, and has an authority problem in a world where that is extremely dangerous for the whole family.
In the books he fantasises about killing Jamie, the only one who treated him well, even after Jamie has just saved his life just because Jamie kept a secret from him, and he also fantasises about raping his sister as punishment for her accusing him of killing Joffrey, even though she genuinely believes it because he had already threatened to kill Joffrey in an argument. He also fantasises about killing Penny because he is offended by her innocence and sweetness, projecting his own self-loathing because he cannot be those things. I'm not sure Tywin does ever say he wants Tyrion dead, it's Tyrion who makes that accusation when Tywin is trying to give him a noble and honourable duty to lead his barbarians into battle (both Tywin and Jamie lead their men into battle). Tywin is equally cold and verbally abusive at times to all his children, so it is unclear to the extent that Tywin does hate him and how much Tywin is to blame for Tyrion's inner demons.
? Tyrion is a dwarf, making him lead his men isn't a "honorable duty" and isn't comparable of someone physically able and trained doing it.
I really don't like people using unreliable narration to claim actually the reality is the complete opposit of what the POV character says. Tywin hates Tyrion for being a dwarf and his wife dying in chilbirth, that was there before the drinking. It's not that complicated, Tywin hates Tyrion on principle, Tyrion acts hedonistically to spite him for the mistreatement, Tywin now hates him for that too, Tyrion does more to spite him, repeat ad infinitum.
And lying abouth your wife, who your father ordered to be gangraped infront of you, not being a prostitute and caring abouth you is a bit more than a little secret... "Hey I keept curcial info abouth your most traumatic experiance secret, no hard feelings right".
Tyrion is a little piece of shit, but the reasons for that are clearly explained.
Well done
We all wanna idealize Tysha
Q : you said Tyrion in the book was different than the one in the show right..?? Well Dinklage's portal of Tyrion, was my favorite in the show, like many others I'm sure...I had planned to begin reading the books, and I'll admit that it was to experience more great moments with the character. So my question is, will I be very disappointed with investigating my time in those pages, or is it still worth a read despite any dissimilarities..??
Cheers..!!
I wouldn't say disappointed, he's still a fan favourite in the books, you just have to expect him to be more morally grey. It's kind of tragic to read his slow descent into what could be villainy... depends what happens in the next book still really, he might be able to change his trajectory
@@mylittlethoughttree Right on...much appreciated..!!
@13:27
Don't you dare give Dave and Dan an out. They had PLENTY of opportunities to hand the reigns to new writers or to hire help... not to mention as much time as they could have wanted to wrap things up in a satisfying way. They refused over and over. If they were burned out, they should have walked away... not destroyed a beloved series with a rushed and horribly written ending. Their own hubris ruined GOT, not their inability to get help.
I think you misheard me, that was kinda my point. Got burned out WITHOUT THE SENSE to bring anyone else in for help...at least I think that's what I said, I can't remember 🤔
Are Little Thought Tree and Implicitly Pretentious the same person? I swear their voices are slightly different but their speaking style (and topic approach) is extremely similar and it fools my mind
I don't know who that is, but maybe I am?🤔