Real Talk: Why most int’l fans can't properly judge influential and impactful K-pop songs
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- There’s a lot of smart K-pop fans. And then there’s ones that overrate their K-pop abilities.
It’s time for another Real Talk on international fans’ take on what they deem as “influential/impactful K-pop songs.”
When I was reading the “Melon Top 100 K-pop songs of all time” list, many international fans commented on how the list was overrated, how they could do better than the Melon judges, and how they were just smarter.
(For reference, here's the URL to "Melon's Top 100 K-pop songs of all time")
► www.soompi.com/article/148590...
While I think disagreeing is fine and expected, many of these fans, after reading their logic, sadly have no clue how to properly rate influential and impactful songs. Their comments had some really ignorant takes and were based solely on bias or hating on other groups.
Add to the fact that they were talking down to Korean judges, people that know both the music industry and can actually speak Korean, and you have a sense of a lot of entitlement that these fans think they know more about Korea than native Koreans.
With that being said, these fans aren't bad people, as they're passionate K-pop fans. I think these fans' takes are just misguided.
Let’s break down why these fans’ takes are off and how to properly pick out influential and impactful K-pop songs.
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 Many int'l K-pop fans have bad takes
1:02 The Melon list
3:57 Fan comments
9:20 Can’t judge songs properly
10:57 Why I’m defending EXO
12:59 Why I’m defending Melon
13:50 Why vanity metrics are bad
16:54 Why fans obsess over numbers
20:45 The street interview test
22:17 The overall best way
23:09 Understanding my take
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TAGS:
#kpopinfleuntial #kpopimpact #Melon
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Thank you for this. I have friends who are new to kpop and there's definitely a difference in how they view a successful group. The constant bragging among fandoms has created a sense of fatigue to the point where I don't care about billboard charts and views and they feel meaningless now. My sisters introduced me to kpop in 2008, but kdramas were the medium that really made me a fan of kpop, and I think that's the reason why your video resonated. Anyone who watches kdramas consistently will know which songs are popular and impactful in Korea, because they would be featured in dramas, parodies, CFs, etc and shows a better picture of what resonates with the Korean public of all ages, not just kpop fans.
And thank you for talking about how technology impacted kpop. The dual growth of streaming culture and social media in the mid 2010s plays a role in the inflation of views and streams, and it's one of the reasons why I don't trust when people brag about numbers today. The conditions back then were so different -social media was in its toddler phase when kpop first started growing internationally, and that's something many new/international kpop fans don't understand. Any group that had over a million views back then was considered a success, which is why even groups like Shinee or Infinite may only have 20-30 million views on some videos now but are still considered impactful and successful. So seeing 2nd gen groups from the golden era like The Wonder Girls or Sistar finally reach 100 million views on a video actually means something - those views were cultivated over 10+ years and is a reflection of their impact and staying power.
@Popsori I would also love to hear your thoughts on youtube views and spotify streams counting toward music shows and charts in the mid-late 2010s and the role they play in the vanity metric debate. I have no doubt this was the main reason for hyper-inflated view counts and why they've become a staple of vanity metric arguments and fandom expectations in the last few years. And yes, while it's nice that kpop groups can be recognized in multiple aspects, the significance of getting a first music show win (or reaching 500+ million views even) has been cheapened a little bit by this practice in my opinion.
I'm pretty half-half on this. Like you said, it's nice that groups can be recognized in multiple aspects, having UA-cam views and Spotify streams count towards music shows can inflate the vanity metrics further. Hardcore fandoms will repeat a song 100 times, no problem, where as the average fan will watch a new MV once, maybe twice.
In turn, this cheapens the music show win and vastly overrates some songs with their inflated views. In other words, a song that has 500+ million views, largely from the hardcore fans putting MVs on repeat, may not be impactful/influential in Korea at all.
I just started exploring Kpop merely 3 years back. So I am not at all an expert in this field. I have my own preferred group but that does not limit myself to explore other group's songs. I listened to more than 50 kpop group's songs & whenever a new MV is released from any group I make sure to check them at least once. While exploring I found some features specifically to Kpop industry.
1. Majority of Kpop fans average age ranges between 12 years to 25 years (max). There are older kpop fans. But % decreases as age goes higher. Basically kpop music industry produces songs keeping in mind of teenagers only.
2. Because of point no. 1, kpop industry puts more efforts only on producing upbeat songs against which one can dance & vibe & also on dancing too. Its not that these songs are lack quality, but current producers do not even look at producing quality songs. Teenagers can't be considered best judge of music. They are merely meant to generate profits for these entertainment companies.
3. I found 2nd gen groups are more vocal oriented (like Bigbang, Shinee, Super Junior, TVXQ, Girls Generation, etc). Out of 3rd gen groups I personally find EXO & BtoB vocal oriented. Their songs are also different from rest of other Kpop groups. GOT7, Astro, Seventeen & MostaX are also good vocally. However on average focus started shifting towards dancing & upbeat songs, less on vocal. 4th gen groups - its only rap, heavy instrumentals & dancing. While evolution takes place in any industry, if a music industry lacks vocal capability, its meant to loose lustre in the long run. Excessive use of autotune has become a norm. Now-a-days actual voices of the idols cannot be heard. It sounds so metallic. Since target audiences is mostly only teenage fans, why bother to get good vocals.
4. Views - I gradually started NOT relying on these numbers. Do you know how many views are bought through ads by these companies? The more company is financially strong the more money paid to buy views through YT ads. And then the contribution from fandom comes. If you find 100M views in few days, hardly 10% to 20% comes from unique account, rest either from str34ming & YT ads. That why I simply do not go by popular songs. I explore more & more kpop groups, listen to their songs & select my playlist according to my tastes & preference.
I am not a teenage neither young person. My real life experience is obviously helping me in making judgement. Obviously we cannot blame teenage fans since their music tastes will change as they become more matures. Its the kpop industry who are mainly exploiting the teenage emotions for making profits. In the process some good music is getting lost.
One issue with the list is the significance & impact being very Korean bias. By putting BTS' Dynamite & Psy's Gangnam Style, it shows the judges valuing them for their overseas impact but then ignoring other impactful songs.
Critically speaking, F(x) album Pink Tape was rated highly by western critics as Billboard had it as their #1 Korean album of the 2010s and Fuse's top 2013 albums list, competing against U.S. artists like Beyonce & Justin Timberlake. In American hiphop circles, Tablo's 2011 EP was widely talked about & hyped. Despite this, F(x) is relatively very low on the list & Tablo isn't featured at all.
This Korean bias is shown with the selection & placement of other key songs. In the U.S., the average kpop fan knew Wonder girl's Nobody rather than Tell Me. The dance & hook was very recognizable & I knew a lot of fans who could sing the hook despite not knowing Korean. After Nobody's release, JYP took them to the US, where they toured & made a TV movie. In a lot ways, Wonder girl's Nobody was a precursor to Twice & their song "TT". TT's hook & dance was much more impactful than Cheer Up. Prior to TT, many U.S. fans didnt know Twice. Similarly you can make the argument with Taeyang's Eyes Nose Lips vs Wedding Dress. While Eyes Nose Lips was more popular overall, Wedding Dress' MV & lyrics had a meme-ness to it, before internet memes really took off. U.S. kpop fans knew the video & dance due to the funny friendzone-esque nature.
While its easier to see the global popularity & impact of Gangnam Style & BTS, less visibility shouldn't dimmish the cultural significance of these older "viral" songs. I'd argue its just as important due to the list being dominated by older songs. In line with your "inflation" argument, these earlier songs becoming mainstream among American kpop fans is what made mainstream America be receptive of Gangnum Style, 2NE1's I am the Best, and eventually leading to BTS' success.
Lastly, the biggest offender is Rain's lower placement & older song selection. While you can make the argument that those songs are what made Rain popular, Rain's international success came during his "Rainism" era. He rivaled Stephen Colbert in Time's most influence people list, leading to Rain's appearance on Colbert's show, & he starred in, the Wachowskis produced, Ninja Assassin. If youre going to value Dynamite over BTS' better & more popular songs, at home & abroad, due to the significance (Dynamite being their first English song for their western fans) then Rain's newer songs should get a similar bump due to his western influence. He starred in a Hollywood action film from the people who made The Matrix! If thats not influence, i dont know what is.
Obviously their expertise & focus is in Korea but if they're going to value Gangnam Style & Dynamite so highly, that same criteria should effect the placement of other songs. It wouldn't be so jarring if they didn't list as many older songs, since they had zero global significance. It highlights their ignorance to kpop's niche era in the U.S. and, by extension, what songs & groups lead to kpop becoming more mainstream in America. Due to this, F(x) got robbed and you can argue Big Bang should be higher because they were America's quintessential Kpop group.
Speak the truth for the people in the back!
Agreed the music critics and experts know more about the K-pop music industry then the fans who make these comments don’t have any knowledge about the Music industry
Despite me calling these fans out, they're aren't bad people at all. They're passionate K-pop fans and I can respect that.
I just think these fans' takes are just misguided and don't take into account many things. Hopefully, we can have a positive, mature conversation about the Top 100 list.
Edit: I forgot to actually include EXO's "Growl" MV in this video, as it was a big topic in this video essay. Here's the MV for reference:
ua-cam.com/video/I3dezFzsNss/v-deo.html
You are an amazing youtuber, the bad thing about the new kpop fans is that they think that BTS or BP created kpop or that nobody in the world listened to kpop until the new kpop groups came. KPOP still being for certain people not everyboy listen to kpop like american pop, you can ask no kpop fans if they recognise any member of a kpop group they don't .
No one is that stupid. What you find irritating is exactly what this video is trying to share with us: IMPACT. Most people who do not know kpop like me simply know Blackpink and BTS, and not much else. That is saying something. Condescending comments like yours never bring any conversations very far.
iFans are the most entitled know it alls on the planet, keep up the great work, this channel is going to blow up!
I had this argument so many times online all they bring up are numbers when I'm talking about impact. Who cares if the song has 500+ millions streams, some older k-pop songs had a huge impact on the industry before k-pop broke out globally and never had the same chances of reaching these numbers.
I agree with you. Having high views, while nice to have, doesn't make a song impactful on its own. There's a lot of older K-poop songs that have huge impact on the K-pop industry today. Yet, these old-school songs never had social media or UA-cam to promote them.
I agree with what you say as it applies to impact in Korea. However, when you listed Melon's criteria, it mentions influence and impact outside of Korea. So while Growl had a large impact in Korea it may have not had that impact on international fans. So their opinion is not necessarily wrong. Maybe there should be two lists, one for Korea and one for International, or change the criteria.
I can agree to your suggestion of having two lists, one for Korea and one internationally. I would say that even arguing "Growl" though, it would still be in the top 10 on an international list, as it was very impactful and influential in China, East and Southeast Asia as well.
I do wonder though if there were two lists. The Korea list would be the same, but the international list would probably be filled with nothing but 3rd and 4th gen songs, with maybe a Big Bang or SNSD song from 2nd gen. I would say this because technology and social media made K-pop's expansion more known to the West. But since that technology wasn't around for 1st gen and much of 2nd gen, the international list will basically be just newer songs.
As for the current Melon list, I think the judges' criteria was something like 70% influence/impact in Korea and 30% overseas. I'm guessing here, but a lot of songs on this list are heavy on what Koreans know about.
Thanks for the suggestion!
My only criticism of the list is it’s “old school” bias.
But overall it’s a good list.
For sure. I think it's tough to balance both "old school" and the newer songs. I'm impressed that "Dynamite" was number 4 on the list, despite being released in August 2020. But I do think older songs were very impactful to K-pop history as well.
@@Popsori DYNAMITE single handedly broke the kpop and pop cross over. If that is not impact I don't know what is.
talk about korean awards please ... like "SM YG vs MAMA" ... thanks 🙋
MISTER Japanese version is stuck in my head. Really great song 👍
It really is!
All the hate BTS was getting from EXO's fans are beginning to make sense now.
I think it goes both ways. Many ARMY slam EXO-Ls in them not accepting that BTS is the most accomplished group in K-pop history, as well as BTS overtaking EXO in popularity.
While many EXO-Ls are mad at ARMY that ARMY won't acknowledge EXO's huge influence in K-pop and there's K-pop outside of BTS.
@@Popsori I think the perpetual demands of tribute to older generations in kpop can be very tiresome. After bullying a junior group from a small almost bankrupt company, they really aren’t in any place to demand gratitude. Just because they were there first. The implication of virtue by seniority is that their junior can thrive thanks to the work done by their seniors. When a junior thrive DESPITE the culture of bullying by their seniors, then that senior group of people forfeited any legitimate respect that may be owed to them.
Notice how much respect and gratitude both BTS and ARMY have for EPIK HIGH. For example.
Definitely not going both ways if one side initiated such vicious fanwar against the other. As a group crowned to be the kings of kpop in waiting and coming from a huge company at the time, EXO along with SM and their reactive fans were in a more powerful position at the start. So any conclusion that they are “equally” responsible for the bad blood between them is a little silly.
Given the lack of power and platform Big Hit and BTS had in the past, the likely explanation is that BTS was considered a pretender, and they along with their fans, were “punished” for having the audacity to think they can surpass EXO and SM, and most importantly, that they did.
Man skipped twice and itzy when they were on the list but mentioned blackpink 😂 alright I'm out here
Awesome, see ya!
Most people know Blackpink but not Twice or Itzy, unless they are already kpop fans.