The Best Way (imo) to Define Both 5th Gen and Future Generations
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- If you’ve been a K-pop fan for some time, you know how confusing K-pop generations are. When does a gen start? When does it end? At the time of the video, there’s no official way to differentiate the generations.
For the longest time, separating gens happened organically, where fans would mutually agree that a new generation began.
Yet, when Korean TV station Mnet declared that 5th gen started in mid-2023 with a new group, ZeroBaseOne, many fans were skeptical. They thought that a TV entity shouldn’t have the power to magically decide when a new gen started, especially since the company had major stakes in declaring one.
While organically letting K-pop gens from fans isn’t a bad way to decide generations, I think I have the best way of doing so. Let’s see if you agree!
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🕛 TIME STAMPS:
0:00 Mnet suddenly declared 5th gen
2:54 Why are generations hotly debated?
7:12 A smarter way to separate the generations
10:26 5th gen is coming fast
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WHAT IS POPSORI?
Hi, my name is Jason! I used to work in Korea for 11 years in the K-pop industry as a journalist, brand marketer, and data scientist. Now I talk about my experiences working in the K-pop industry here at Popsori.
If you wanted to learn more about my background and why I created Popsori, here's an expanded bio here:
www.popsori.com/about/down-to... - Розваги
To me, an outsider looking into kpop, I could see and feel a shift in kpop zeitgeist after the debut of New Jeans.
Generational changes often happens in overlaps. The outgoing and incoming often occur concurrently. I suppose that’s the nature of organic changes. Like trends in fashion or music often started in the late part of a decade and matured in the next.
The 5th generation started seeding in 2023 and it will mature in 2024 as a distinct cohort.
That's a fair take. And it's great to get an outsider's view of K-pop, as I find your opinion fascinating.
With that said, using your NewJeans logic, wouldn't 2022 be 5th gen then, since they debuted that year?
@@Popsori To the point of the imprecise nature of organic evolutions and the human need to artificially demarcate stages of things to make sense of things, I would say they USHERED IN a new generation. So I definitely think 2023 is the beginning of the 5th gen. This year 2024 will be when this gen matured and solidified, like you suggested. By 2025 the 5th gen will have a clear and distinct "face". Evolution by definition do not come in hard lines but gradually over time.
That's a fair take, where you say that 2023 started 5th gen and 2024 solidified it.
I commented on your poll but i agree with everything you said in the video. also its kind of fitting that YG debut there girl group at that very tail end of the generation, it seems to be a trend of theres. Now that the big 3 and hybe have debut all there groups i think its fitting that this year or next year will be the rise of 5th gen, it just feels right. If zb1 is fifth gen does that mean kepler is 5th gen, same as riize. Mnet really didnt think that one through did they.
Oh yeah, I saw your comment on the poll. I do think it's interesting that YG debuted their next big female group in BabyMonster towards the tail end of 4th gen.
I'm also thinking this year or next year will be the rise of 5th gen.
As for Mnet not really thinking things through, well... yeah lol. I think they thought "let's make zb1 the face of 5th gen and every other group after them will also be 5th gen."
Excellent video! You have provided a lot of food for thought!
I think the option that you explained is the most reasonable.
I just watched an interview of VCHA and they said they were based in LA. 🤯
I had assumed they would be based in Seoul.
I think that definitely belongs in a different generation. Or a sub-gen? does that exist or did I just invent it? People say it's much easier to recognize in hindsight when the generations split, but this seems extremely obvious.
How will Korean K-pop fans react to them living in LA?
For those who fear that the genre is becoming very diluted and is losing its Korean-ness, having a K-pop group of North Americans based in America sounds like the attempt to start a worrying trend.
Already, many groups of Koreans or Koreans + Japanese/Thai etc sing all or mostly English.
I had hoped that VCHA would start adding a few Korean lyrics here and there because I thought that would endear them better to Koreans.
Do the VCHA girls have to maintain these strict behavior rules that all the other K-pop groups must abide by? In LA??
If they have more freedom, would that not antagonize Korean fans? On the other hand, this highly regimented lifestyle, which is considered normal in Korea (at least normal for idols), sounds stricter than boot camp in America.
How will American/global fans react if the VCHA girls do have to live by these very strict rules?
Was the idea to attract fans who have never been interested in K-pop before? Because this regimen is going to seem insanely strict and borderline abusive to Western audiences.
I want what's best for K-pop and to me it seems the most important thing is that Koreans continue to enjoy it. I'm attached to the VCHA girls and would prefer that they succeed.
Btw, Gina De Bosschère, the French-Korean girl who was cut at the last episode of A2K, just released a new single: "Crush"!
Thank you very much for the video!🙏😁🧡🎭🎶✨
First off, thank you for watching! It's always great that you watch and leave thought-provoking comments. Now for your comments.
I'm glad that we now got confirmation that VCHA is based in LA. Like yourself, I thought they would be based in Seoul or split between Seoul and LA. I think that VCHA could be either in the end of 4th gen or the start of 5th gen as part of the new, Western K-pop group trend.
As for Korean K-pop fans reacting to VCHA living in LA, I can give an educated prediction. I think that these fans may be impressed that K-pop has truly gone global, since Western music labels (in collaboration Korean giants like JYP and Hybe) are making established global K-pop groups based in the US now. Yet, I think many of these fans won't see them as true K-pop groups based in Korea, as their sound is very Westernized and they sing in near/all English.
Since VCHA will be based in LA, I would take it that they would adhere more to American standards and have a lot more freedom and have their agency monitoring their mental health. Yet again, I think many Koreans may see it as not a "true rite of passage" that K-pop stars would go through if they were based in Korea, a regiment that K-pop fans know all-too-well. Some K-pop trainees could also see it this way too - i.e. "wow, must be nice those VCHA girls get it a lot easier with their training in LA than us trainees here in Seoul."
I think the idea with VCHA is to capture the teenagers and young Disney fans in the West, a void left when One Direction left. I think that the K-pop/American labels are aiming at these fans that aren't K-pop fans or barely heard of the genre (i.e. they might know BTS and Blackpink). From there, the hope is that VCHA can pull these young fans into the greater K-pop realm.
If VCHA can get a sizable teenage market, with some support from regular K-pop fans, they could succeed. If they can't, well, they may lose out in the long run, since the standard K-pop fan isn't the target audience that VCHA is catering to.
As for Gina, that's great that she's continuing to do well post-VCHA/America 2 Korea!
Once again, thank you for watching and your comments. Much appreciated!
@@Popsori
Thank you so much for such a thorough answer!
I had not realized that VCHA was going to be marketed so heavily at Western audiences - almost to the neglect of the Korean audience, it seems like.
I've heard that some groups are much more popular with international fans, and that, in general, Koreans have less respect for those groups. (I realize that is an incredibly vague statement and that "Koreans" are not one giant collective, but individuals with their own opinions and feelings.) naturally, Koreans would resent the VCHA girls not having to work as hard/live by the same standards.
When I scroll through the comment sections of the VCHA channel, so not just their MVs, there are quite a few Korean and Spanish comments (sometimes more than English), and occasionally Russian and Japanese.
I've hardly seen any Portuguese comments which kind of surprised me because it seems there's a lot of Brazilian K-pop fans. However, it's possible that they write comments in English like most Scandinavians, Dutch, Germans, etc do. "Love from Brazil 🇧🇷" is something I see quite a bit on K-pop videos' comments in general.
It does seem like a viable strategy to use VCHA as a "gateway" to K-pop. I guess it has never been tried before. Hopefully, this will bring more fans to K-pop, but there are probably many who fear that Korean groups are going to start being more westernized to appeal to the western market. The result would be that these groups would put less of a priority on pleasing Korean fans, and that would be a dreadful shame.
But does the west welcome K-pop moving in?
There was a New York Times-sponsored podcast on the UA-cam channel "popcast" discussing Jungkook, English lyrics and his entry into western music. The two month old UA-cam video has less than 900 views. The comments all seem quite angry at the podcast people, whom they accuse of unfair gatekeeping/r@cism.
I only found this because yesterday UA-cam recommended a two month old video to me from the channel "choujimi" in which he critiques this podcast.
It had not occurred to me that Western fans (?) or music critics/industry insiders would oppose K-pop entering the western realm. Maybe they're worried that the artists on their labels will face competition from K-pop? This honestly seems silly to me, because fans can enjoy more than one group or soloist or genre!
I find all of this to be quite fascinating. We have front row seats to a cultural experiment which I don't think has a precedent. The English language, and American/UK entertainment has been expanding all over the globe for over 100 years. It seems to dominate pop-culture worldwide, although many countries also have a very vibrant culture and entertainment industry of their own, like India, China and Nigeria. I guess we in “the west” are not used to having anyone expand into our space. I think that can only be to the benefit of music fans worldwide, but a record executive might have a different perspective.
Thank you so much for your time in answering my questions! 🙏🎶🎤🕺🪩💫
Good content, you lay out the history well. It seems to me generations choose themselves. Only looking back do you see the transformative events and groups. I think 5th gen might be marked by the rise of smaller companies and more mature independent groups. The global music parallel being the punk/independent movement of the late 1970's that dismantled the hegemony of the 'corporate rock' system. 5th gen might be the hyper trained 4th gen performers, at the peak of their talents, figuring out they can do it all for themselves. I think we'll see an explosion of different influences and creativity.
This is a good point.
Thank you for the kind words. Truly appreciate it.
As for your comments, I can see 5th gen being marked by the smaller labels and indie groups doing well. I'd actually welcome it, as I like to see more companies that have impactful groups outside of the Big 4.
I can also see parallels to what you mentioned with the punk/indie movement of the late 70s breaking down corporate rock.
Personally, I think the Korean obsession with quantifying everything is fascinating. Sometimes reality is best qualified, well, qualitatively.
NEW JEANS started a new wave in kpop. It’s like suddenly the industry wakes up to something that was different than what went on before. (Please stop telling me they weren’t the FIRST to do this or that).
It is like the difference between 1st printing and 1st edition in book publishing. The 1st edition can be printed many times.
What change an edition is if there is a revision in content: QUALITATIVE difference.
In what way or ways is New Jeans qualitatively different from all the groups that came before? What makes them so different?
Great video! I like that you also noted Korean music associations - They're likely to see the tides change firsthand by paying attention to who/what captures the Korean zeitgeist immediately and has a lasting impact. That's why I love reading their top 100 kpop lists. Mnet stirring the pot reeks of manipulation (like their shows) and makes me think they're trying to quickly erase the sins they committed with Kep1er and the previous Produce groups.
For sure and thank you for watching! I like reading the music experts' top 100 kpop lists as well. As for Mnet, I agree that between their Produce series voting manipulation and then declaring a new gen, the company is not trustworthy to fans.
What determines when a new generation has started though?
That's a great question! The answer would be: there's no single factor or answer :(
Right now, the best way we have is looking at a variety of factors, such as major events, new groups from the Big 4, a 6-8 year span, etc., then fans generally agreeing that it's a new generation down the road. I know, it's not a surefire way to define a generation, as fans will have their own definitions on what makes a new gen happen.
This is why I propose giving that "generation power" to a respected music organization made up of music critics, producers, journalists, radio DJs, etc. to decide this.
@@PopsoriWhat makes it important to determine when a new generation has started? And to distinguish between generations?
@brianlittrell797 I think new generations are important to distinguish because it shows people which era you're talking about.
For instance, I can say, "remember that time between 2012 and 2017 when K-pop exploded in Asia. We had EXO and B.A.P burst onto the scene, then had BigBang, 2NE1, and SNSD continue to dominate. Then later, we had Twice, Blackpink, and BTS rise to the top. Lastly, we had BTS take the US by storm in 2017."
Or instead of the above paragraph, I can just say "3rd gen."
When you mention a certain generation to a fan, they'll know what you're talking about right away. So if I say "1st gen," fans will think "ahhh, that person is old-school" or "this person might enjoy S.E.S, H.O.T, FInkL, etc." Generations give us fans an easy way to define an era.
I said this before, but I'll say it again. Determining K-pop generations is more of a "if you know, you know" basis (in my opinion). For now, it's a bit early to claim that we're in 5th gen because barely a decade has passed since the beginning of 4th gen (late 2010s/early 2020s). More accurate to say that we're currently in a transitional phase.
Even from 2018-20, it truly felt like we were transitioning from late 3rd to 4th gen K-pop. Such changes happen organically.
A little nitpicky here, but 1 of the aforementioned 4th gen K-pop boy bands is actually spelled "RIIZE." Also, I wouldn't really categorize global music groups like KATSEYE and VCHA as "K-pop" in the strictest sense (more like "Kpop-style" if you ask me).
For sure and I agree with you that KATSEYE and VCHA are "K-pop inspired or style" as you say. But I used the loose definition of K-pop to keep it simple. Both groups had a K-pop label co-producing their respective reality shows, America2Korea and Dream Academy, so they'll be lumped into the K-pop scene.