Aoe2: Is Box Formation Actually Useful?
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Box formation has a few surprising uses that might not be obvious at first glance.
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"Hard Boiled" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
"Apero Hour" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
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Age of Empires II © Microsoft Corporation. This video was created under Microsoft's "Game Content Usage Rules" using assets from Age of Empires II, and it is not endorsed by or affiliated with Microsoft. www.xbox.com/en...
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Tutorial : Use this formation to defend and protect your weaker unit
Pro-players : use it to attack
Protection is just preparation for the counter.
The best defence is attack
@@josesoria2072 Best defence is resource denial.
You don't need to protect or attack if enemy can't do a thing because he is too damn poor to afford anything.
That being said, trade carts are self-"repairing" issue with all that cyclic traffic blockage.
anyone else think spirit of the law sounds different in this one?
I thought the same
It took me until this comment to realize that this wasn’t spirit of the law
IMO T-west is more technical whilst SOTL is more empirical.
For example, if SOTL did a video on deleting mangonels, he would probably focus less on dissecting the exact mechanics and more on trying to determine whether it's cost effective to do so against a variety of unit comps and formations.
I would also say SOTL has a big thing for trash units and takes what I would consider to be a pretty attritionalist perspective on combat that doesn't tend to factor in things like overwhelming the enemy capacity to react, resources now vs later, map control, etc.
For example, on paper, archers counter a committed man at arms attack. With equal resources the archers win with even the slightest micro.
This would lead to the conclusion that taking a battle where you lose, say, 6 MAA to kill 4 archers is a pretty bad idea. Even if you still have several MAA left over.
What I find is this kind of analysis doesn't really take into account the value of simply forcing the opponent to react quickly. An archer takes 35 seconds to make while a MAA takes 21. Your MAAs can win this fight with a pyrrhic victory and unless your opponent is full walled, they won't have time to make more archers before your remaining MAA are in their base. So if they have 2 archery ranges and you have 2 barracks, you might lose the cost effectiveness fight but you'll do a lot of damage to their economy and their ability to respond. As you should be able to deny their resources, attack their buildings, and kill any vills stupid enough to go and heroically make another archery range, wall, etc. Arguably map control is more important than economy is that map control IS your opponents' economy.
@@petersmythe6462 I think in Starcraft they call this tempo (or so I have heard), basically keeping presence/control on the battlefield, since if you take not cost effective fight but wipe out enemy army and then have free hand to damage eco/take down building/snipe freshly made units. I think SOTL mentions these things too sometimes, for instance how Paladins can take on Halbs (and how its not cost effective but if numbers are similar then they can keep pushing ). However these things are highly situational, as The Viper would say "it depends".
Personally I think analysis on how these situations turn out should be separate from unit stat analysis and head to head effectiveness as they are more to do with strategy than with units themselves.
I see box formation as a good stand ground tool for a small group of units to hold an area, if you have pike men on the outside and archers on the inside then cavalry will struggle to get to the archers and will have to take an unfavourable fight, if it's your full army then it's too risk and can be pressured too heavily on one side, but otherwise it's neat for holding hills with small groups. Also having 6ish pike men surrounding a trebuchet can work wonders on the backline.
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
Man, your videos are always so useful and informative :) Great job! Only bit of feedback I have was that I found the music a bit too noticeable/distracting.
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
Seems you're doing good with these recent views on the old video. Is that happening on other older videos of yours too??
Every so often the UA-cam algorithms decide a video is similar to one of my recent uploads and start recommending it.
@@T-West Can confirm. Was recommended this video.
Wow, did not expect Box Formation to be this relevant to me!
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
Now we have the skills to win with Militia, I will upgrade the box in the barracks
_SUPPLIES!!!_
I read the commenters and I know many of them over twitch and from ingame :D
Box formation is known in other strategy games for moving troops around or for most melee troops as line is way too spread out (specially in cossacks, where you easily have 200 muskets) and in cossacks, bunching them together helps tjat all can attack easier
My takeaway - Box Formation - Use when all units are weak to increase firepower/defence.
3:23 Ah yes, the classic triangle box.
Well if you want to use box formation against large armies you should consider using the stand ground order
For the archer microing @2:30 the thin line is necessary else the 2nd rank will catch the arrows shot at 1st rank no?
The biggest issue with box formation is when the units decide to ignore the box part and go in a X formation.
I'll use it with priests all the times. But not to big of a group, because then indeed the guys in the back won't do anything.
So basically box formation becomes "compact line formation".
Compact and "horizontal".
But only for small numbers of units
This is actually a very good video! Will share, since it can't be more clear than this!
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
@@teutonichealingfortress stop spamming dude
@@mani_9472 okay
@@teutonichealingfortress Cool thanks, have a great day.
@@mani_9472 you too brother
wow this must be the secret to reaching 2k. I think i will play theviper now 11
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
@@teutonichealingfortress hit those monks first it will end
All is decided by how experienced a player is
@@aquajasa true, how.experienced a player is in using the healing fortress and using other unit formations to support it such as bombard.canons, siege onagers, palladins and another group of teutonic knights is a large factor. It's like the boardgame 'go' easy to try out, hard to master. You have to flow like water
So far in my experience, box formation is very effective against AI especially against melee unit, presuming you have a good amount of archers inside and enough infantry to block anyone trying to come inside. Have them in Stand position so the infantry wont leave their position, because the AI is programmed to attack the unit that damaged it first, it will try to get to the archers first but can't due to the infantry, the AI will attack the infantry but not before freezing for like 2 seconds to realize they had to.
instructions unclear. still unable to make a box out of my supremacy villagers.
Box formation helps you smuggle petards into your enemies midst.
I also used it to rush my monk with a relic into the final town in the 2nd Sforza mission.
Wow you're not as evil as I thought you were, you didn't delete birds from your test-scenario at 1:44 #savethebirds
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
IRL birds aren't real, in AoE2, birds are the only thing that's actually real, 1 bird = 1 life
I like to use the box formation just so my opponent cant just right-click my siege weapons with e.g. hussars (especially with teutonic knights around) while the rest of my forces engage normally
thats what i want to do on paper but in game im way too bad at micro to form up controllgroups most of the time cause its just too much happening so i forget about it or my units are dying too fast so the groups arent worth the effort ^^'
Long story short, box formation is about AESTHETICS.
Worth pointing out that there is an Alpha version of Age 2 floating around where you could actually put units into formation and they would stick to it, and that they would take flanking and backstab damage. The player would be taught about formation in the last William Wallace scenario and this version of the game even has some voice line instructing you how to use them.
Thats so cool
In fairness to what appears to be the original intent of box formation, I will say that as someone on the more rookie end of the AoE spectrum, I encounter quite a few situations where I've got my infantry and cavalry attacking up front, then some other enemy's light cav or rogue pikemen will snipe whatever archers or siege or monks I have in the back, though I don't think box formation would remain helpful even in that situation
I use it for my trebs to make them stay together instead of in a long line, much easier to protect from units but it is more vulnerable to onagers and other trebs i guess.
I do the same. Trebs and bombard cannons. Makes it harder for calvary to pick off the one at the end of the line. It also keeps them clumped and reduces pathing issues for my other units that are trying to maneuver around my siege engines.
That's interesting, and makes sense too. I have seen it is beneficial to have trebs in a line (especially on a chokepoint) to protect onagers behind the trebuchets.
I wish we had a box formation that worked above 6 units. I know it could cause balance issues but I have a gripe with large groups of units forming a long line when you click further away than 10 tiles. It's like you're fighting the game for control, forcing you to click less than 10 tiles away, even if you don't want to.
Correct color choice. GG.
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
Very good video, clear, concise, complete! (And even have William Wallace voice in it ---> Perfect)
Thanks for the analysis.
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
@@teutonichealingfortress mass onagers/scorpions will clean your teutons tower easily.
@@madeiraislander know when to retreat, convert, use other unit formations, take cover, send a single unit in succession, etc there are allot of variables and you have to account for the weaknesses
@@teutonichealingfortress Yeah and that depends on who you're playing against. I think it's a very risky strat xD I usually play as the ethiopians so doing this against me you have to expect at least 20 scorpions/onagers in the late game, plus feudal and castle archer rush.
@@madeiraislander also depends on who's using the strat and if they know how to use different units to counter others and to work alongside existing army - bombard canons and castle fire ftw, a few onagers and scorpions of my own sometimes as well
Dream team is currently Teutons, Byzantines, Goths, Vietnamese
I recall watching this video a long time ago, maybe shortly before it was uploaded.
Just now I noticed it was you. Keep up the good work, king.
I think box formation could be useful for moving siege with pikemen around, so it can't get picked off by cavarly when focussing elsewhere. When fighting switch to regular formations. Would implementing a square formation be an idea for a next patch?
If you take 1 group of 48 units each, put 1 group on patrol with start and end points as close as possible, and repeat the patrol several times over with minimal distance, and then press stop; you will find you've fit an entire group in less than a 3×3 tile box where normally that 1 group would occupy a 3×8+ box. This is useful for ranged units as the entire group can fire from that tiny box while minimizing a tiny surface area exposed to melee attacks. Only down side is: a couple onager hits will kill the entire group.
Box formation is still useful for protecting the weaker units in situations where you can't expect where the enemy will come from or it's likely they will attack from two or more angles. Box formation is also obviously superior in protecting weaker units as guards in small groups, possibly independent of the main army (expensive siege, monks, etc with pikes). Moreover, notice even in the beginning part, although the line formation does "win" the fight, it doesn't do the job the Box formation is designed to do -- protect the siege. 3 Magonels survive in the box whereas in the line its 1 Mago and 3 pikes. The final point is that no sane man would run his expensive mass of knights into a wall of pikemen and magos -- he'd try to flank. And this, of course, is prevented by the box formation. Box formation is useful when you need a treb to not die and you can't be bothered to babysit it, for example.
I love the box formation with monks, handcannoneers, and TKs.
Amazing how you can still learn new things about this game. Great video. I'll sub just in case!
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
use teutonic knights in box formation to protect ranged units from melee attacks
My dad always use this formation in campaign
Clickbait didn't see the monkey have to fight light Calvary.
I needed this video without me knowing I needed it.
Use the Box Formation to protect a weak unit such as a monk!
-- Legendary Tutorial Guy
I would love it if Boxed Formation was instead more of a Boxed Move (Attack)... you click the button or associated hotkey & then BOX an area of the map. The units will attempt to first - attack the units within the box starting from/on the box inwards. Second attack units on the outside of the box. Not sure if it should be essentially a sort of specialised attack formation that maybe is best against archer masses?
I saw a LEL game where box formation was used successfully to defend a few monks with elephants. I think their HP and physical size probably helps.
Another practical use is when you have large groups of infantry. Normally with infantry the back line spends a lot of time trying to get into the fight, which gives the advantage to smaller groups of more powerful units, like knights. Starting out in box formation puts half your units already along the sides, ready to walk around the outside and attack from the rear.
I find the box formation used in situational scenario in battle. In the AoE2 campaigns, I would usually use the box formation after sieging a city/base and my army has penetrated deep into the city/base to either hold or last stand until reinforcement arrive to bring my army back to full strength. I too found out the about "compact (square)" formation while trying to figure out an alternative to the line formation in my early experience in AoE2. I came to conclude that the "compact" is limited to 2x2 and 3x2 of one unit type.
I have played AOE 3, and the usual way I would protect weaker units would be to select only my stronger units (like pikemen or muskets) and put them in defensive, take cover, or stand ground position in the same place as my weaker unit (like a skirmisher), but not have them both types of units actually selected when I put them in formation. You only need your anti cavalry to be very nearby to protect the weak units, they don't have to be physically in between, which is pretty much impossible to do anyway because the battle is so chaotic. In the case of cannons, since they don't take up that much room, I might set the cannons up first, and then put the muskets in stand-ground position directly on top of the cannons. That way they are compact but also protecting the cannons. I really like telling muskets to go into melee in advantageous circumstances. Cavalry are trying to raid my cannons which are close to my muskets? Eat bayonets. Skirmishers are too aggressive in advancing on my muskets? Eat bayonets. Anything is attacking my barracks which has just spawned muskets? Eat bayonets.
came from reddit for a thumbs up and to give you a compliment, great video man!
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
Sometimes i do put halberds and axemen in boxes in stand ground against mostly melee enemies. Nothing meta here but i love to do this in casual LAN parties.
A cheese strategy I used to enjoy against AI back in the day was box formation with war wagons with a few siege onagers and a monk or two inside. They could take an onager shot to the face without issue and the SO's would just shoot at everything a mile away
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
Updated to 29,20,11 for the base formation
When they reform on the march that's not called vertical line but column formation. It doesn't have explicit name in the game but that's what it's called in real life.
Box formation can be also used to protect some high value target from petards and especially demo ships, more like human shield
I works really well with Korean War wagons and SO I use it in BR a decent amount with that combo
İ use Box Formation for Just finding Monks or villagers from the group
I like using box formation to keep my archers and horse archers compact and in line when below a number of 7
"tou ! go play! tom cat!"
Box formation is pretty good combining Teutonic Bois with siege cannons and/or scorpions and some monks in stand mode.
When i search spirit of the law i see this and click. No spirit of the law, this show how similar is your content
you need to change the agressivity of your army to stand in formation and dont go away. and you need other troops to attack. this formation is to defend range units, no to attack.
This is useful since path finding for melee units is kinda suck now and some time for range unit hit and run tactic is not working due to the strange path finding.
Thanks for that, really great video with great examples :)
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
very informative and didnt waste time, thank you. well done
bcoz of this video i will subscribe u great work man
the moral of the story? You have to thinking outside the box
Fun fact in an alpha of the original Age of Empires 2 there was a formation that mimic the age of empires 1 formation called "Horde", also Flank formation is really good for scouting
Edit: in one of the alpha builds the stagger icon looked diferent showing the white dots forming an arrow, also when you choose a formation some buttons will apear to show that will rotate the units clockwise and counterclock wise (depends on the button) by 45 degrees, and ther is one that moves them by 180 degrees
Some of the old formation icons are still present in the files of the original game. I think it was possible to hack around with the exe and activate a couple of them.
So you say it’s bad when it beats normal 3.
Subtleties in the mechanics like this is one of the main reasons why I love this game. Thanks for the information!
So the squad-of-6 unit formation
Wait...so that was Vinchester? The guy I had never heard of until the RedBull tourney this weekend? The guy who beat Hera 2-0 out of seemingly nowhere?!
Vinchester has been an expert player for years, his winning isn't out of nowhere ;)
Would this benefit melee units with ranged attack? Say steppe lancers.
In small numbers it can.
I wonder if the split formation is ever used and useful for it's original purpose - not to dodge mangonel shots, but to surround enemy units as you attack them from both sides?
Not that I know of, although I suppose it could be useful for that. Generally I think units need to be further apart than the flank formation allows to make splitting them up useful (say if chasing down a smaller group of units so they can't retreat).
@@T-West Thanks, guess I'll try to experiment - and what a legend for liking and answering comments on your own videos : ) Thanks for the content
I use it when scout rushing towards enemy base, having two or more scouts in split formation you can get a slightly wider scouting area.... Peanuts 🥜
Thats where onager shots go
Good video, good music!
4 monks, 10 hand cannoneers, 20+ pikemen, box formation, set to defensive. Any melee units within range or attacking the square get killed by hand cannoneers who in turn are protected by pikes. Any units wounded are healed by the monks. Keep onagers, etc, away by posting 8-12 knights nearby to support the square
I've seen this suggestion posted a few times, but I doubt that formation would be useful. Those units should die very hard to Arbalests, or even to Elite Skirmishers.
@@T-West 3 such infantry squares supported by 3 cavalry units to fend off ranged units can grind up most enemy formations. Most of the time the enemy charges at the squares. The key is keeping ranged units at bay
Hey, so I've noticed that formations are much less useful in AOE2 Definitive Edition than they were in the original AOE2, because I distinctly remember units in formation in original AOE2 to be able to stay in formation even when under attack, however Definitive Edition units seem to be incapable of doing so. Anybody else got the same results? I tried blocking off a chokepoint with a formation of 60 longbowmen, but instead of staying in rank and file and shooting , they break formation and run around and after the enemy, not returning into formation when the enemy leaves their sight, when in original AOE2, they would have either stayed in formation (passive stance) or returned to formation (defensive stance) after driving the enemy away.
Anybody got any idea why that is? Are there lines of code missing?
Stand Ground and Defensive Stance still work the same way they always have, as far as I'm aware.
@@T-West Something seems to be awry with my game, then. Defensive stance units used to fall back in line once they had driven off an enemy. Now they just stand around where they broke off pursuit. Stand Ground units don't hold position any more. They break formation and then stay in broken formation when attacked.
wow great video
It's useful for campaign as well too, set the outer box on no-attack and have a monk convert easily from the inside while the enemy gets stuck by the box. :)
In Age of Empires III, it's cancer, especially with a certain Russian cavalry unit. :P
OPrichnik (yes, those caps were not a typo :p)
@@Volcano4981 As of the latest patch in DE, not anymore. They removed the cav box exploit. RIP OPr box 2005-2020.
@@mayuri4184 Oh yes I have DE so I've heard, even though not tried or seen it myself yet.
Big salute and a huge F for the most hilariously broken tactic in AoE 3, or second only to the Cuir spam, RIP
nice stuff
21 years of playing this game, I learned something new here. 6 archer in box better for dps. Ty for that
I'd have loved if large battlefield formations provided more of a tactical advantage like they did irl. You see a lot of the dev screenshots and marketing with these big battles with units in formation and it would be so cool if that was actually a viable play style.
T-West my man! Thank you, I wasn't really sure when to use box formation, I'll give it a try in a match later today.
Great video! After playing DE for so long now, the visuals of the old game hurts my eyes.
Would have been nice to hear how the game decides which units go on the inside and outside of the box in a mixed group!
So no benefit against cavalry?
Other than taking better fights with small groups of units, no.
T-West Saves the World
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
@@teutonichealingfortress why do you copy/paste this silly strat in every comment? it's not even a good strat! 21 monks that's 2100 gold, that alone is a terrible idea.
@@madeiraislander it's been a while since the last time I've been on a spam streak but okay - the reason is that I love it and want others to give it a try and search for someone that can truly make it shine beyond what I can. The strategy itself scales in useability with whoever is using it.
There are a bunch of different variations and a bunch of different ways it can be used - it is a support unit first and foremost and its main use is in team games to heal your army and your allies' armies - etc
@@teutonichealingfortress but it's not a good strat, maybe it will work against noobs but against good players if you're gonna spend 2100 plus some tech for the monks, you're going to be seriously behind your enemies. Let's say you spent 3000 gold making the monks plus some techs to give them more HP and range etc, with that gold your enemy can make tons of arbalests, plus a few hussars/light cav to counter your strat. The arbs take care of the teutonic knights very easily while the hussars close in on your monks, since they resist conversions. i'd also throw a few scorpions in there to attack the TKs, which would also attack the monks because everything that's in line gets attacked.
or the enemy could go mass onagers (10 or so would do) and kill all of them at once because they're very slow units lol
my point is, VERY expensive strat, easy to counter xD
Why are you using older versions of AOE2?
This video was made in 2018.
@@T-West Oh My silly! I didn't check the date. Sorry.. XD
What mod are you using for the terrain there?
A few terrain textures that come from a variety of other mods, I forget what all of them are at this point.
@@T-West okay, well it would be cool if you could look some stuff (at least the grass) up because it looks really good
Very good video
Teuton's healing fortress formation -
Square, stand ground - 29 teutonic knights, 21 hand canoneers, 10 monks
Healers' 21 wololo salute 29 teutonic knights, 21 monks, 10 hand canoneers
basically if they make the line formation to be compact like box formation, it would be the best one again.