I love the videos you make in the darkness while explaining ffg swrpg. It feels like stumbling across a holocron that teaches the skills for being a GM.
Really great video Runeslinger. I have only awarded experience for a few games so far, but I hadn't even considered the when and on what aspects. Great food for thought and wonderful insight.
One rule I have heard of but havent tried is, you can upgrade a skill while using it if you flip a light side point. This represents the act of learning while doing but putting a price on it to keep it from being used all the time.
+Silent Shadow In the Star Wars RPG, the use of the Destiny Pool is thematically tied to the ebb and flow of the force around the events. Upgrading for a roll via a Destiny Point is a standard part of play. Reskinning the pool to reflect effort, or planning, or learning, etc. is a great idea which helps with connecting these points to good description. You can see something similar in games which use the Ubiquity system, and several others.
You've got a lot of great points and I tend to stick to the 10-20 based on how active the character is and then hand out bonus xp if the character's do noteworthy in or out of game. For example, I got bonus xp for my rebel surpassing a really difficult lie to an imperial officer, along with bypassing the combat encounter by the groups skill for example, the slicer forged imperial documents with a couple of Triumphs, along with me successfully deceiving that imperial agent and getting a guy out of detention (I think that was my group's first ever non-combat session). I like the idea that WEG did with training, but it felt more like a time management mini-game with the system. But, like you said, it depends on the type of game(s) the GM is running. I tend to award every session and the players save or spend depending on what they want. But then again, sadly, my sessions can sometimes run months between sessions. As a player, I tend to follow the same guide you spoke of at the end, only 1 skill increase per session per skill and talents as the XP allows, but I tend to be more skill heavy than Talents. No point in better handling a craft if you are horrible at Piloting a craft. Lot of food for thought for whenever my next session will be.
I actually introduced a soft cap of 400 XP in my game to keep the power creep from being too nuts. Players still get XP beyond 400 but at a trickle and in a manner similar to XP rolls in Mythras (RQ6). I have found that at 600 XP characters are becoming success machines, and require ever skyrocketing difficulties to be challenged, at the cost of moderation and any kind of link to relatable situations.
Our experience (ha!) of growth through experience was different. Yes, more competent characters are more competent, but I found that they sought out larger and larger challenges, or incurred stronger and stronger responses from their surroundings, but that these things flowed naturally from where they chose to be, against whom they chose to contend, and at what level they allowed their Obligation to run. In one scene we might be able to avoid rolls altogether as they outclassed the opposition by enough, and they might slip into a different scene and be rolling for their lives. I suspect the different experience is a result of how the universe was handled. I note in your comment the use of the phrase, "...required every skyrocketing difficulties to be challenged..." and this suggests to me an approach where the GM is creating situations to challenge the group. I approach the game from a "what would be there?" perspective, and am unconcerned if a situation that the players have chosen to involve their characters with is too easy or too hard. Luke cleaning house on the sail barge could be viewed as a scene that was 'too easy' for the characters, whereas Luke facing Vader and Palpatine on the Death Star while watching the fleet be destroyed and hear his sister be threatened might be seen as just right. Too hard might be Han being tortured on Bespin or Threepio being blown to bits.... then again, those challenges might be seen as just right by some groups. Text is not a great way to discuss such perceptions, sadly~
Thank you this was good advice and food for thought. I think what I don't like is the progression that is forced by the system. I prefer to have the characters have threats that are universally threatening vs. situationally threatening to the PC's. I like it that if they were originally threatened by something then later on if they encounter the same thing they are not arbitrarily not threatened by that same thing. I'm not including things that would obviously make that situation nullified such as obvious life experience or equipment (coming back with a suit of Mandalorian Armor worn). On a separate note: I think your thoughts on experiencing a scene unfold as a group are words to live by (I know that sounds dramatic), but I have put those words to such good use since I first saw your videos on Simulation. I try to have growth occur similarly driven by how the game goes, rather than by the game's scheduled XP dumps. I should also have mentioned that that first 400 xp is theirs to spend how they want and as fast as they want, with a small Life Path inclusion for taking a lot of points at game start. I also Love the idea of including what is there, and I don't like placing enemies like in an MMO where they only encounter stuff that is their level and homogenously so.
I appreciate a video specific to character advancement. When I am browsing RPG books at a store, I flip to 3 sections: Skills, Magic(if relevant), and Character Advancement. These are the world and game design philosophies that I find most important in matching with mine.
+Arch Lyte To that, I would say no. The rate of XP gain is in the GM's hands and is left vague to enable the group to control the speed of development. If a faster rate is desired, just give more XP. The characterizations do not benefit from trying to fit in multiple Motivations. Lots of Obligations, Duty, and even including Morality, however is great~
Thank you I appreciate the validation. I felt that this was not in the spirit of the rules, but sometimes with this game I am noticing that people adopt an approach of, "well it doesn't say I can't," when the subtext is pretty clear (or when common sense is easily invoked).
Thanks for the response. Because of the link it was sent to spam, but it should be visible to others now. I understand your point about using a flat rate of experience per session to reduce metagame choices. That decision gets made by a lot of WoD groups, for example, either to reduce stress on the ST for having to award them, or to prevent people shooting for the 'Danger Point' or whatever. My counter-point would be that in this game, XP are awarded for surviving and perhaps thriving in stressful or 'interesting times' and for roleplay of the effects of 'Obligation/Duty/Morality' plus the individual's Motivation. In order to generate the atmosphere of the game, these in-character qualities need to come out, and the characters need to be challenged by the sort of scenes which form the films. Avoiding all entanglements and threats by doing nothing as a character is antithetical to that. Some online groups prefer to award XP for showing up to the game. The behavior being rewarded is purely meta: showing up as the player. Others reward a set amount per hours played, again rewarding the player for sticking around. None of these choices reward roleplay. This sort of system might be exactly what the GM needs in order to build a group. In that case it is a very good idea. It does, however, ignore an aspect of the system which is already fairly misunderstood: the character drives and motivations, and their connection to the genre of the game. Ideally, no one needs that reward in order to roleplay in a roleplaying game. Some however, might need the feedback of the XP system to get in tune with the representation of the genre as it exists in that group. Thanks again for the VR. You raise a valid point that I did not consider, and it was great to get an active comment to respond to!
Thanks! I have a counter-counter point! :D Obligation/Duty/Morality act as a narrative spur, driving characters to do the interesting scenes anyway. I have not experienced that with the XP system changing, these mechanics suddenly don't do their thing. They do work as intended, maybe even more. Another point I forgot to mention, is that unlike some other RPG-s, I don't like to run characters with different XP levels in FFG Star Wars. While I happily award different amounts of XP to characters in D&D, I would never do so in Star Wars, because I guess I view advancement more of a narrative limit of what a character can do, and not the actual limitations of the characters (since they can influence things normally outside their purview by using Destiny Points for example). When characters gather more experience points, and purchase a new talent, it might not be a matter of learning a new skill, but "becoming ready" in a narrative sense. Luke did not practice piloting in the movie before blowing up the Death Star, him taking the "Exhaust port" talent for example, was not justified by training or doing things connected to that (and surely he did not acquire such talent practicing in the Beggar's Canyon against womp rats). The only difference between him being able to do such thing at the end of the movie, but not at the beginning, is becoming "ready" in a narrative sense. I would love to continue this discussion maybe in a different form someday.
+Rufus DaMan I am leaving the idea of awarding the same or different numbers of XP for a video on Duty awards. This video was just on the basics presented in the rules for this game and offering a few options to people unsure of what to do with them. We started our campaign with variable points of XP, but as the group became more familiar with it and I grew more familiar with the players, we decided to shift to giving an average of the range of XP awards for the session to everyone to reflect their teamwork. XP awards like these are tied to roleplaying to help the GM offer useful feedback to players. It's a tool to help reinforce what might be new ideas for some players. Not all groups need that, but some definitely do. A group keen on roleplaying their characters will make great use of Obligation, Duty, and Morality and will focus on their Motivations. Other groups will ignore it. XP tied to these things helps them reconsider doing so. As for 'becoming ready' this is a good way to answer the question I pose in the video about the rate of improvement. Luke definitely steps up to bring all of his different, untried, skills together in time to save the day; becoming ready as you put it. How does he do this? Spending hoarded XP on Talents~ ;) At least, '...from a certain point of view...'
I think if a group is worried about the mechanics of "when do the characters in world actually level up", they're missing the point. It kinda feels like the same school of thought of people who get hung up over characters not using the restroom in movies. 8\ ... like, lighten up. just a game.
You are over thinking it, One of the best options on character (skills etc) development was from Blue Rose, simple level them up when it felt right for the story/game, Thing is with a flat rate you risk uber characters poping up faster in more frequent games, you can move very quickly up in abilities and that can get out of control if you stick "to the book" I know this may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't mind a team made up of different levels of capabilities, story and character come ahead of "game balance" (which is a player issue than system) Han is more skilled than Luke, Ben is more skilled than Han, etc, Luke only has a saber, Han has a Falcon, sure jabba wants his pound of flesh, but Luke's dad is Vader, My way of playing games like Star Wars is give the players what they want, even a Capitol ship, if they abuse it take it from them in story in game, if that's not your cup of tea then I suggest you pace rewards based on the degree of play, often less, less often more,
![Improvised NPCs [FFG Star Wars]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Fp1YuVKzBT4/mqdefault.jpg)
![Improvised NPCs [FFG Star Wars]](/img/tr.png)
I love the videos you make in the darkness while explaining ffg swrpg. It feels like stumbling across a holocron that teaches the skills for being a GM.
I am glad that you enjoy them!
Once again, a wonderful video on FFG Star Wars. Keep up the great work. Looking forward to more.
+Zirbip Thanks for the kind words and for watching~
Just to say again these videos I've found very helpful.
Thanks for letting me know~
Here I am five years later getting ready to GM my first campaign watching ALL these videos and getting a lot of good thinking down.
That is great! Have characters been made, yet?
Really great video Runeslinger. I have only awarded experience for a few games so far, but I hadn't even considered the when and on what aspects. Great food for thought and wonderful insight.
+sr2joker I am glad to hear that you found this video to be of use. I hope you are having as much fun with the game as we have been~
Definitely!
One rule I have heard of but havent tried is, you can upgrade a skill while using it if you flip a light side point. This represents the act of learning while doing but putting a price on it to keep it from being used all the time.
+Silent Shadow In the Star Wars RPG, the use of the Destiny Pool is thematically tied to the ebb and flow of the force around the events. Upgrading for a roll via a Destiny Point is a standard part of play.
Reskinning the pool to reflect effort, or planning, or learning, etc. is a great idea which helps with connecting these points to good description. You can see something similar in games which use the Ubiquity system, and several others.
Runeslinger sorry. I explained poorly. I mean spend Exp to permanently upgrade a skill on the character sheet.
You've got a lot of great points and I tend to stick to the 10-20 based on how active the character is and then hand out bonus xp if the character's do noteworthy in or out of game. For example, I got bonus xp for my rebel surpassing a really difficult lie to an imperial officer, along with bypassing the combat encounter by the groups skill for example, the slicer forged imperial documents with a couple of Triumphs, along with me successfully deceiving that imperial agent and getting a guy out of detention (I think that was my group's first ever non-combat session). I like the idea that WEG did with training, but it felt more like a time management mini-game with the system. But, like you said, it depends on the type of game(s) the GM is running. I tend to award every session and the players save or spend depending on what they want. But then again, sadly, my sessions can sometimes run months between sessions. As a player, I tend to follow the same guide you spoke of at the end, only 1 skill increase per session per skill and talents as the XP allows, but I tend to be more skill heavy than Talents. No point in better handling a craft if you are horrible at Piloting a craft. Lot of food for thought for whenever my next session will be.
+Cody “Talley” Doolittle Hopefully, you can play again soon! Thanks for commenting and sharing your thoughts on XP~
I was considering that XP could be awarded whenever the group is at their ship or home base, after finishing a mission objective
Any break where there is appropriate downtime to improve can be a good time. We ended up using transit times a lot in the last year.
I actually introduced a soft cap of 400 XP in my game to keep the power creep from being too nuts. Players still get XP beyond 400 but at a trickle and in a manner similar to XP rolls in Mythras (RQ6). I have found that at 600 XP characters are becoming success machines, and require ever skyrocketing difficulties to be challenged, at the cost of moderation and any kind of link to relatable situations.
Our experience (ha!) of growth through experience was different. Yes, more competent characters are more competent, but I found that they sought out larger and larger challenges, or incurred stronger and stronger responses from their surroundings, but that these things flowed naturally from where they chose to be, against whom they chose to contend, and at what level they allowed their Obligation to run.
In one scene we might be able to avoid rolls altogether as they outclassed the opposition by enough, and they might slip into a different scene and be rolling for their lives.
I suspect the different experience is a result of how the universe was handled. I note in your comment the use of the phrase, "...required every skyrocketing difficulties to be challenged..." and this suggests to me an approach where the GM is creating situations to challenge the group. I approach the game from a "what would be there?" perspective, and am unconcerned if a situation that the players have chosen to involve their characters with is too easy or too hard. Luke cleaning house on the sail barge could be viewed as a scene that was 'too easy' for the characters, whereas Luke facing Vader and Palpatine on the Death Star while watching the fleet be destroyed and hear his sister be threatened might be seen as just right. Too hard might be Han being tortured on Bespin or Threepio being blown to bits.... then again, those challenges might be seen as just right by some groups.
Text is not a great way to discuss such perceptions, sadly~
Thank you this was good advice and food for thought. I think what I don't like is the progression that is forced by the system. I prefer to have the characters have threats that are universally threatening vs. situationally threatening to the PC's. I like it that if they were originally threatened by something then later on if they encounter the same thing they are not arbitrarily not threatened by that same thing. I'm not including things that would obviously make that situation nullified such as obvious life experience or equipment (coming back with a suit of Mandalorian Armor worn). On a separate note: I think your thoughts on experiencing a scene unfold as a group are words to live by (I know that sounds dramatic), but I have put those words to such good use since I first saw your videos on Simulation. I try to have growth occur similarly driven by how the game goes, rather than by the game's scheduled XP dumps. I should also have mentioned that that first 400 xp is theirs to spend how they want and as fast as they want, with a small Life Path inclusion for taking a lot of points at game start. I also Love the idea of including what is there, and I don't like placing enemies like in an MMO where they only encounter stuff that is their level and homogenously so.
I appreciate a video specific to character advancement. When I am browsing RPG books at a store, I flip to 3 sections: Skills, Magic(if relevant), and Character Advancement. These are the world and game design philosophies that I find most important in matching with mine.
+Bankbar Como Thanks, I am glad to hear it. I have similar habits: resolution mechanic(s), chargen, and campaign management~
Multiple Motivations during creation as a way to stack your character for XP Gain. I am encountering this tactic. What does the Runeslinger say?
+Arch Lyte To that, I would say no. The rate of XP gain is in the GM's hands and is left vague to enable the group to control the speed of development. If a faster rate is desired, just give more XP. The characterizations do not benefit from trying to fit in multiple Motivations.
Lots of Obligations, Duty, and even including Morality, however is great~
Thank you I appreciate the validation. I felt that this was not in the spirit of the rules, but sometimes with this game I am noticing that people adopt an approach of, "well it doesn't say I can't," when the subtext is pretty clear (or when common sense is easily invoked).
Great video, although I do have some points about it.... maybe a video response is in the works...
+Rufus DaMan VRs are too rare these days. Go for it~
Thanks for the response. Because of the link it was sent to spam, but it should be visible to others now.
I understand your point about using a flat rate of experience per session to reduce metagame choices. That decision gets made by a lot of WoD groups, for example, either to reduce stress on the ST for having to award them, or to prevent people shooting for the 'Danger Point' or whatever.
My counter-point would be that in this game, XP are awarded for surviving and perhaps thriving in stressful or 'interesting times' and for roleplay of the effects of 'Obligation/Duty/Morality' plus the individual's Motivation. In order to generate the atmosphere of the game, these in-character qualities need to come out, and the characters need to be challenged by the sort of scenes which form the films. Avoiding all entanglements and threats by doing nothing as a character is antithetical to that.
Some online groups prefer to award XP for showing up to the game. The behavior being rewarded is purely meta: showing up as the player. Others reward a set amount per hours played, again rewarding the player for sticking around. None of these choices reward roleplay. This sort of system might be exactly what the GM needs in order to build a group. In that case it is a very good idea. It does, however, ignore an aspect of the system which is already fairly misunderstood: the character drives and motivations, and their connection to the genre of the game.
Ideally, no one needs that reward in order to roleplay in a roleplaying game. Some however, might need the feedback of the XP system to get in tune with the representation of the genre as it exists in that group.
Thanks again for the VR. You raise a valid point that I did not consider, and it was great to get an active comment to respond to!
Thanks!
I have a counter-counter point! :D
Obligation/Duty/Morality act as a narrative spur, driving characters to do the interesting scenes anyway. I have not experienced that with the XP system changing, these mechanics suddenly don't do their thing. They do work as intended, maybe even more.
Another point I forgot to mention, is that unlike some other RPG-s, I don't like to run characters with different XP levels in FFG Star Wars. While I happily award different amounts of XP to characters in D&D, I would never do so in Star Wars, because I guess I view advancement more of a narrative limit of what a character can do, and not the actual limitations of the characters (since they can influence things normally outside their purview by using Destiny Points for example).
When characters gather more experience points, and purchase a new talent, it might not be a matter of learning a new skill, but "becoming ready" in a narrative sense.
Luke did not practice piloting in the movie before blowing up the Death Star, him taking the "Exhaust port" talent for example, was not justified by training or doing things connected to that (and surely he did not acquire such talent practicing in the Beggar's Canyon against womp rats). The only difference between him being able to do such thing at the end of the movie, but not at the beginning, is becoming "ready" in a narrative sense.
I would love to continue this discussion maybe in a different form someday.
+Rufus DaMan I am leaving the idea of awarding the same or different numbers of XP for a video on Duty awards. This video was just on the basics presented in the rules for this game and offering a few options to people unsure of what to do with them.
We started our campaign with variable points of XP, but as the group became more familiar with it and I grew more familiar with the players, we decided to shift to giving an average of the range of XP awards for the session to everyone to reflect their teamwork.
XP awards like these are tied to roleplaying to help the GM offer useful feedback to players. It's a tool to help reinforce what might be new ideas for some players. Not all groups need that, but some definitely do.
A group keen on roleplaying their characters will make great use of Obligation, Duty, and Morality and will focus on their Motivations. Other groups will ignore it. XP tied to these things helps them reconsider doing so.
As for 'becoming ready' this is a good way to answer the question I pose in the video about the rate of improvement. Luke definitely steps up to bring all of his different, untried, skills together in time to save the day; becoming ready as you put it. How does he do this?
Spending hoarded XP on Talents~
;)
At least, '...from a certain point of view...'
Characters pc and npc / nemesis two sides of the same coin both should be able to grow and get stronger.
Definitely~
good vid
did you ever do a video on Duty Awards?
That and the other two social mechanic videos are still in the queue. It has been too busy around here for too long!
Is this 10 to 20 experience to be split amongst the party or is this 10 to 20 experience to each player?
XP are given to each player~
Runeslinger thanks
My pleasure~
Interesting topic. Let's exchange. Video response in the next post, because it's going to be sent to spam.
I think if a group is worried about the mechanics of "when do the characters in world actually level up", they're missing the point. It kinda feels like the same school of thought of people who get hung up over characters not using the restroom in movies. 8\
... like, lighten up. just a game.
You are over thinking it,
One of the best options on character (skills etc) development was from Blue Rose, simple level them up when it felt right for the story/game,
Thing is with a flat rate you risk uber characters poping up faster in more frequent games, you can move very quickly up in abilities and that can get out of control if you stick "to the book"
I know this may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't mind a team made up of different levels of capabilities, story and character come ahead of "game balance" (which is a player issue than system) Han is more skilled than Luke, Ben is more skilled than Han, etc, Luke only has a saber, Han has a Falcon, sure jabba wants his pound of flesh, but Luke's dad is Vader,
My way of playing games like Star Wars is give the players what they want, even a Capitol ship, if they abuse it take it from them in story in game, if that's not your cup of tea then I suggest you pace rewards based on the degree of play, often less, less often more,
Taking this pretty serious, just wing it!
This video is a specific response to a question about XP.
As promised my Video response: ua-cam.com/video/NEjxflI_C1I/v-deo.html
+Sirko Rückmann I will check it out. Are you playing Star Wars these days?
Not yet, unfortunately. But I have a group very open for new systems and settings. So I am going to sooner or later. For now it's summer break mainly.
+Sirko Rückmann Heh, the death of games for older gamers: summer.