“You ask, will the heterodox be saved… Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins… I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.” ~ St. Theophan the Recluse
So I should never consider converting to a Orthodox as a Protestant if I'm not absolutely certain I will forever stay an Orthodox. In light of this quote, God might save me as a Protestant but will definitely damn me if I leave Orthodoxy. Good to know.
Great point regarding Mark 9! Mark 9 verse 38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
I grew up with Russian Otrhodox tradition and customs and I can tell hands down that some Americans are very naive, because they are looking for a historic church, BUT the modern Eastern Orthodox Church IS NOT AS historic as Early church. I do appreciate rich tradition and all that is good there, however you have to guys consider following things: lots of superstitions, sectic thinking, political nationalistic imperialism perspectives, mix with worldly ideas (as long as you are baptized, probably infant with no consent of yours and come to church occasionally and confess your sins - that’s nice, but your life remains almost as of atheist or agnostic), wierd traditions (along with good you get the bad ones), not to mention this hierarchy of legalism and religious system. Now some few years later after my conversion experience and transformation I came to re-consider some views and I stopped demonizing Eastern Orthodox church and saw the good part. Since nobody got it all right and we all need each other. But the Gospel was preached to me and more clearly revealed through evangelical Protestant friends and then I met Jesus and really started reading Bible, praying and saw my life changed. I do believe there are genuine Orthodox Christians and I encourage and cheer on everybody as long as they pursue Christ and His word and what He accomplished, not the religious system. And I tell you for me mostly it was superstitions and some wierd ideas and not being taught of the word of God. For some people it might have been very harsh legalism and bondage - I came dry out of the water and God showed mercy on me in many ways. I totally understand you if you are burnout on Pentecostal, charismatic or evangelical religious form, legalism or some cult, but it doesn’t mean you have to get yourself in another religious system. Dr. Outland has a good point, guys!!! We should be followers of Jesus and grow in the knowledge of God and we all are His church, One body, orthodox, eastern, Armenian, catholic, reformed, Protestant, non-denominational.
@@kingattila506but that’s the problem with our Christianity… I was an atheist or agnostic in the heart. Nobody cared. Believe the Gospel through Protestant friends. Beware!!! I don’t batch on orthodox. But in my opinion and experience many people are just unbelievers wearing tradition clothes. It can be the same with many catholics and Protestants. That’s why Luther is right. We need to preach the Gospel of Grace every day, because we forget it every day… we need to remember it and awaken to it. Be orthodox if you will, but many orthodox don’t even believe what Early Church fathers actually taught about salvation through Christ and His atonement alone… and the West also in problems. We need a Reformation! Wake up and come back to the truth that is in Jesus!
Jesus vs the Church is a false dichotomy. The Church is Christ’s Body. He speaks through the Church and saves through the Church. The Church is the visible prolongation of the Incarnation. Salvation is from Christ through His Church, including the Church’s Mysteries. This isn’t that hard to understand.
Thank you for all the hard work, Dr. Ortlund. This was quite timely. EO seems to be drawing a lot of young people at the moment and I think there isn't enough Protestant engagement with it. Keep up the amazing work!
Well besides orthodoxy not being well known yet in the west, its growing, EO is more predominant in europe, yet EO is drawing ppl to it because of the traditional aspect but evem more so than that is the fullness of the truth which speaks to the soul/heart. Few protestants are informed/equipped to engage EO, while EO is prepared for protestants, RC, etc This teases the depth & caution that EO contains.
I find that appreciating Eastern Orthodoxy in person is far more apparent than Eastern Orthodoxy online. It is represented very poorly online, often by quite loud, rude, and obnoxious catechumins and fresh converts... which only serves to diminish the claims that are made. In person, away from the often loud, rude, and obnoxious personalities found online, Eastern Orthodoxy shines. All this coming from someone who is completely comfortable not being Eastern Orthodox, strengths and weaknesses may be more objectively observed and respected.
I totally agree. I've been Orthodox for over 30 years (convert from RC), and the current trend for recent converts 'teaching' on their UA-cam channels, with little humility, is somewhat shocking. It bears no resemblance to parish worship and parish life and Orthodox ethos.
I'm EO, and the majority of people online who I've interacted with that are representing EO, and even telling other people to convert to EO, aren't even EO themselves! It's crazy.
I've found TLM communities and the Latin mass quite similar. Much better in person, horrible online. Though I do think online EO might do better than online "trads".
Here in England, I simply don’t know anybody in the Orthodox Church. I form my view of Orthodoxy from what I see online and in the news. In theory, the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox Churches need to get back together and send a joint mission to England to persuade the English to admit that John Fisher and Thomas More were fake saints.
Hi Gavin, I am an Orthodox Christian, and a convert from Protestantism. I want to add a bit of context here to what St. Theophan is writing by including a quote from another letter, which I think may be relevant: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved. Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." --- St. Theophan the Recluse I think St. Theophan's problem is more with Orthodox christians leaving the Orthodox Church than anything else.
That is such a good point about Theophan's text being for Orthodox Christians, and not for others. Those who do not Orthodoxy cannot be judged for turning from something they don't know. And Orthodoxy doesn't judge them for it.
The quoted text actually sounds a lot worse. St. Theophan refers to Orthodoxy as the "Truth" and what Protestants believe as a "different faith" and a diversion from Orthodox orthodoxy as a betrayal. Pretty stark language. He even says "They have a Savior" which could be interpreted as Protestants have a different theology or that Protestants have a Savior that is not the Orthodox Savior.
@@Cletus_the_Elderwell they do have a different theology and do to differences in Christology I think you could argue to some extent they do have a different savior. Just as most Christians would admit the Christ of the JWs or Mormons is different than that of the rest of Christianity.
@@Cletus_the_Elder So you think St Theophan believes this other being actually exists and will take take care of them, then? This is absurd. And yes, Orthodoxy is the truth and heterodoxy is a deviation from the truth...obviously.
You noted: "It does seem weird to assume that just because someone is within the church they don't need to have the gospel preached to them people in the church all the time routinely need the gospel to be preached to them afresh." I would agree, but my understanding of the EO perspective is that their lifelong, diligent application of and devotion to the mystical rituals, sacraments, icons, etc. IS their sustaining "preaching" of the Gospel afresh, as it can only be found in the Church's sacred acts, and experienced as the beginnings of theosis. They do not particularly think of the Gospel as Protestants do, apart from its one time saving event in baptism, thereafter the Gospel is worked out in the process ultimately leading to theosis.
Preaching the gospel cannot be done by not preaching. Nothing else is preaching the gospel. It can be nice, it can be all sorts of things but it cannot be preaching the gospel if it isn't preaching.
@@katskillz The point in your paragraph 2 goes well with my observation. If it is not necessary to remind people of the gospel that saves, then that Church becomes a "folk religion". Case in point, your great, great, great grandfather found Christ and converted to Him, he raised his children, grand children strictly in Church, they also raises theirs in the Church and all are members by "birth". That is what I mean by folk religion. Yous see, God has no grandchildren thus the necessity of presenting the gospel on every opportunity. There is no other tradition that understand this as Protestants. Every person must be born of God individually through the preaching of the Gospel. Orthodox Church does not evangelise. The story which Gavin is narrating in not to be tossed out of the window, it is a reality.
@@Nolongeraslave I agree, I just wanted to (hopefully) accurately present the EO's own position to the best my understanding. I believe it to be wrong, and the main reason it is wrong is because the EO theology mistakenly takes a specific doctrine of theosis / deification and makes it the central dogma around which ALL other doctrines and practices must flow from or fortify their belief in. This is not how the early Church fathers understood things. Nevertheless, they are blind to the courtroom framing of justification and condemnation in Pauline soteriology. They are blind to the comprehensive pervasiveness of original sin requiring a substitutionary atonement where Adam and his spiritual family stand in a position of demerit needing satisfaction for sin a state of being, by means of a substitute. And they are adamently blind to the distinction between the Content of Gospel and the Consequences of the Gospel. Thus for them ecclesiology basically is soteriology. If one, in their system, is diligently tending to the collective dynamics of the Church's praxis, then one is saved individually, period.
This is such an untapped area. So glad to see you covering it. My parents got married in the Greek Orthodox church (I'm Greek on my Dad's side), and I grew up with a lot of random info about the religion and the church. (Plus, our yearly visits to the Greek Fest they held cuz... Baklava.) But I never saw it seriously examined until recently since many people seem to be converting to it.
Wow interesting ! Im a former protestant who converted to orthodoxy. Hope you begin to rexamine thoroughly! Just as there are bad parishs/churches or cultural/lukewarm christians all over doesnt negate the said group/churchs truth & teachings. Godspeed melissa!
Greek churches (in America at least) are very eeehhh and lukewarm. I’m not saying all Greek Orthodox folks are like this, because there are obviously pious and genuine people and parishes in Greek Orthodoxy, but here in the States, Greek Orthodoxy has a reputation of being basically a “cultural club.” Many Greek Orthodox folks go to church solely to mingle with other Greek people, and anyone visiting the church from outside of that group is considered weird. Very sad, to be honest. But there is a growing contingency of faithful Americans finding Orthodoxy. Melissa, I don’t know that you have encountered this. It would be super interesting if you were to visit an Orthodox Church (OCA, ROCOR, Antiochian, or Serbian) and make a video about your experience. Would love to see it.
@@MelissaDoughertyThe Greek Orthodox is the most mystical of the E. O. Churches. The belief in the importance of Grace which probably under a different name, is understood by the Jewish community as well makes the E.O. important path to spiritual ascension. The RC Church view that Grace as defined as something we may get which we don't deserve is too vague to be helpful; something saint do but no one else will accomplish. This idea is incorrect.
@@Josedrivadeneira I finished it and that's exactly what he's saying. But if he really believed in Sola Scriptura he would know the Bible says the way is narrow and that not all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Goodness, this was excellent. The sober, austere, ceremonial nature of the Eastern Orthodox tradition must slake the thirst of many Protestants, whose Protestant leaders are in disagreement with church "fathers," leaders, and saints pre-Reformation and even post-Reformation, whose liturgy changes with the mood of the time, whose history seems relatively shallow, whose clergy seem to pursue the activities of the secular world. One of the many things I love about this channel is that it allows Protestants to tap into history and claim the history of the faith in-between the New Testament and Martin Luther as ours, too.
You can claim it all you want but it’s dishonest. For every church father you can claim as “your own” I show you how thoroughly Catholic they really are.
Fact is they were apart of the catholic church friend & you cant claim them but you can cite them all you want in vain. But while there are faithful protestants due to their faith, does not make their church true. It is because of Gods mercy that they can see paradise...
Years ago I looked into Orthodoxy and attended the OC for over a year. I even helped my cousin to convert but never was able to bring myself to join. Because Protestantism has a “plainness” to it, many are overwhelmed by the beauty and history of Orthodoxy. The biggest unsettlement for me was that members (especially converts) were always praising and extolling the beauties and virtues of the church, but you would never hear them exhibiting the same language and excitement about Christ our Savior. After some years when the novelty wears off, one is left with a church very similar to all other churches - with problems, inconsistencies, and even scandals. Praise God he is condescending to save us despite our churches! 😸 thank you for making this video!
@@julesgomes2922 The Church IS the body of Christ... 1 Corinthians 12:12-27. Of course you wouldn't realize that as a Protestant especially the part where Paul says "so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other." This is the problem with the sole focus on a personal relationship with Jesus. It isn't just a personal relationship with Jesus, it is a loving relationship with your neighbor, your enemies, your family.
“you would never hear them exhibiting the same language and excitement about Christ our Savior.” I find this a bit hard to believe. The icon of Christ is always the largest icon in the church. And there are usually multiple icons of Christ displayed throughout. Orthodox prayer life centers around the Jesus Prayer. Most of the liturgy is prayers to the holy trinity. And have you ever skimmed through an orthodox prayer book? It’s littered with prayers and hymns about Christ. Sure we give attention to the holy saints, but nothing in comparison to Christ.
@@jamesbishop3091 it’s also worth noting on top of this great statement that we don’t attribute any “special powers” to the Saints, rather it is through them crucifying their passions that allowed Christ to use them as vessels and work great miracles through them, who are beacons of His light. It is Christ working through all of the saints, thus by venerating saints we are actually by in large venerating Christ
Yeah, their last discussion was just getting to the important distinctions (that I think Gavin mostly misses or glosses over in his critiques) at the end. I wish he'd dialogue about these concerns more instead of just copy/pasting quotes and professing that his interpretation of them are representative of what the church teaches
Watching it now, and you're right on. It's downright disturbing to see how many people are willing to say "yeah and it's BaSeD to say my fathers, mothers, mentors, and friends who all showed the fruits of the Spirit worship a FaKe Jesus and are gonna go to hell #imsoedgy". Like....the sheer callousness there. My word.
100%. It’s shocked me for a long time how many people might love their family heritage and living family and then actively move to EO alone, not realizing they are joining a confession that says that person’s ancestors and immediate family who are Christian are actually empty vessels. They either have no idea or think it’s not a required belief, negating the whole appeal of the “unchanged” church.
@TheologyVisualized The same argument, literally the same argument, was used by pagans multiple times early in Church history, to stop people from converting to Christ, that by doing so, they were saying that all of their ancestors were in Hell. Should they have remained pagan, rather than accept the exclusivity claimed by Christ? Note : it's not an adequate response to say that their ancestors were pagans, while here we're talking about fellow Christians. The logic of the argument and its emotional appeal work equally well in either case. What's important is what the Scriptures teach, what is true, and what is pleasing to God. In either case, this is a caricature of what we actually believe.
@@AmericanwrCymraeg Thank you! I am reminded of the saying I have heard several times: "We know where the Holy Spirit is, we don't know where he is not". I have not heard any Orthodox Priest say that everyone outside of Orthodoxy is damned. That would be like putting God in a box and knowing exactly what he should be doing, which is exactly what Orthodoxy does not do. (Protestant inquirer in Wales)
I think a core point being made here is that if you are attracted to Eastern Orthodox adherence (perhaps by aesthetic considerations) make sure you are willing to swallow the whole (and that the whole is not just beautiful, but true). The benefit of exegeting this letter from St. Theothan is that it presents the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy in rather blunt and plain terms, rather than vague appeals to the mystery and ancient wisdom of the church.
@@gracenotes5379 I've been a priest for a long time and have baptized many converts. I always talk to inquirers about their motivations and what's leading them to consider Orthodoxy. I'd be hard pressed to think of a single person who was coming for aesthetical reasons, yet I consistently here Protestants dismissively deriding new Orthodox Christians as only caring about aesthetics, rather than doctrine. It's a caricature and not a particularly helpful one. Obviously, enjoying or appreciating beauty is not the same thing as being motivated to convert for those reasons.
If you are peaking into Orthodoxy, the best route to take is to simply attend an Orthodox liturgy and experience, and discuss your questions with the priest over coffee hour. Orthodoxy is primarily experiential.
@@ArchangelIcon sounds like a sales pitch from a cult. "I can't explain it, you just have to come get brainwashed in person by drinking holy water and kiss these pictures of saints for no reason whatsoever"
@@nemochuggles I've been to a liturgy. If you're holding fast to Scripture, and to Christ, it won't move you to faith in Orthodoxy. I saw the blasphemy of a man bowing to a piece of art, and was offended.
Im Protestant but seems like we are telling EO what they believe and they say no we don’t believe that, and we just say no you have to believe that because of this guy said this. We should let them speak for themselves. This letter was in context of an EO leaving the church of course his letter is going to be firm and direct. This same guy also has been quoted elsewhere that it is possible for others to be saved. It’s a mystery. Theophan the Recluse. “You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins”. I don’t think EO converts have to say now all westerners are all 100% lost, it’s just not the case. This doesn’t seem fair to them.
His question “why do you worry about them?” Is telling. Christians care for the unbeliever and WANT others to believe and evangelize. To have this flippant attitude towards the unbeliever betrays his claim of being in Christ.
When I left my baptist upbringing and started exploring all the denominations, I couldn’t settle on Orthodoxy for the sole reason that they’re by far the snootiest about being the one true church… even Catholics aren’t as snooty. Fundy, independent, landmarkist baptists come close.
"this group is snooty so i will seperate myself from Christ as they claim without actually verifying their claims, i had a bad experience one time so i reject God"
Plus the original church was in people's homes, not fancy churches with all sorts of pomp and men in dark robes with arrogance chanting vain repetitions.
Thoughtful and thorough, as usual. I considered Orthodoxy, but found them obsessive about nonessentials, like how to hold your fingers when crossing yourself, and the exact wording of the Jesus Prayer. They certainly cannot say with Paul, "I was determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified."
Thank you so much for this video, Dr Ortlund! It is so fascinating to now see you read the writings of the easter-orthodox church fathers, after me having the personal experience, talking with my parents, talking with eastern-orthodox priests in Ukraine and seeing my experience confirmed by the writings of their church fathers. Thank you for shedding light on this topic!
Another great video, Dr. Ortlund! The Lord is using you mightily in this entire debate and discussion. I pray many will find the assurance of salvation through your ministry.
I’m not EO, but the argument does make me think of non-Christians using the implications of hell for “good” non-believers as a reason not to become Christian. I think this follows the same logic. To deny the fruits of Western Christianity is a good argument, however. I also like the point about exorcism and those not against us are for us. That is a different train of thought that has so far kept me Protestant. Love your stuff, Gavin!!
As a lifelong Baptist (non-Calvinist, 😊) I was ignorant of EO teachings for most of my life, until I gained a Russian friend some years ago. So grateful for discovering your content in light of that relationship. It's been a great help! God bless! Oh, I've also found the lack of evangelizing by the EO church to be a bit disturbing. Say what you will about the Catholics and Protestants, they have evangelized like crazy!
Orthodox Christianity is only for heavenly warriors with the faith of a soldier compared to the rest denominations no civilian amateur faith is allowed, the Ethiopian Orthodox church is for the faith equivalent of a Colonel in military experience and Flat Earthers Christians of the Ephraim awakening faith is the equivalent of a General in military experience. This is why in the True church believers are standing like a platoon of soldiers waiting orders from Jesus, meanwhile catholic heretics and the weakly faith denominations they don't respect Jesus they need to seat.
Excellent video Dr. O. I have a couple of family members who left the non-denominational protestant church we all once attended together, citing legitimate complaints about fundamentalism issues in our former church, and legitimate appreciation for the beauty of the Orthodox liturgy. Thankfully we are still close and I expressed to them a desire to not brand one another as heretics as we agree to disagree. Thanks again. You're my favorite "sellout" 😉
You have said what I have been trying to say to my eastern brothers for a long time in a nutshell. The taking for granted of the west and the people (Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Evangelical, etc.) it has brought forth and the beauty they have preached and lives they have lived for Christ. I am Roman Catholic but most of my readings, meditations, and inspirations come from people like Jonathan Edward’s, George Muller, Wurmbrand, NT Wright, and YOU!
With regards to Mark 9, the clear counterpoint is both Luke 11 and Acts 19:11-17. When people tried to cast out demons without authority, the demons responded by beating them up. What is the difference between Mark 9 and Luke 11? And between Mark 9 and Acts? The specifics both of what's said and what the context is matter enormously. Obviously, the sacred Scriptures don't contradict each other. Likewise, St Theophan both speaks positively about the possibility of the salvation of the non Orthodox *and* writes this way to an Orthodox person tempted to leave the Church. And there is no conflict between the two views. St Theophan isn't contradicting himself anymore than Christ is in Mark and Luke. A good Biblical exegesis should take into account the entirety of the Scriptures on a particular subject, not isolated verses. The same is true in understanding the thinking of a particular writer, like St Theophan. This is similar to when people claim that St Gregory of Nyssa was a universalist by pulling out isolated passages from his writings, while ignoring all the others where he speaks of eternal hell and eternal punishment. As has been noted, St Gregory sounds hopefully universalist where the Scriptures do and speaks of eternal hell where the Scriptures do.
"When people tried to cast out demons without authority, the demons responded by beating them up." Do Protestants and Catholics have the authority to cast out demons? Have Protestants and Catholics performed real exorcisms that worked?
@@Galmala94 Whether Christ has chosen at times to cast out demons through them and whether they had the authority to do that are separate questions. What God establishes as normative doesn't bind His freedom to work. Both Mark and Luke are true on this. Also, I'm not saying this applies to Protestants, but Christ makes this distinction clear in Matthew, that people can cast out demons through Him without being with Him. Matthew 7:21-23.
very cool! I will be doing two videos in the next few weeks on the Ethiopian Orthodox church. They will be largely positive about historic events between Protestants and Ethiopian Christians. God bless.
@@TruthUnites Dr do it carefully. because there's Many false teaching in Ethiopia Orthodox Tedowido church like Ark of Moses, saints meditation, praying and worshipping to Mary, false and edited 85 books , fiction like Enoch books. Dr in 2008 G. C or 2000 E.C Ethiopia Orthodox Tedowido church has changed 3540 of bible verses for their doctrine. I and my family Was in that church. Truth is not what you are hearing on UA-cam. Reply me if you see my comment
The Ethiopian Orthodox church denies the intercession of Christ and sometimes even call it heresy , maybe you could touch on that a bit as well.@@TruthUnites
@@AbebaDamesa-wc7ls yes, one video will be on the reform effort of Estifanos in the 15th century; the other will be on the dialogue with Michael the Deacon and Martin Luther in 1534. I hope they will be helpful; let me know what you think if you watch!
Orthodox Christianity is only for heavenly warriors with the faith of a soldier compared to the rest denominations no civilian amateur faith is allowed, the Ethiopian Orthodox church is for the faith equivalent of a Colonel in military experience and Flat Earthers Christians of the Ephraim awakening faith is the equivalent of a General in military experience. This is why in the True church believers are standing like a platoon of soldiers waiting orders from Jesus, meanwhile catholic heretics and the weakly faith denominations they don't respect Jesus they need to seat.
Great video as always. After being discouraged from RC with the issues surrounding the Papacy, I am turning to evaluating EO and will use this topic as a main point of contention.
Love your content and I can't wait to watch your video. I have a close godly friend who is EO and very enthusiastic about it being the "Church". Makes it a little difficult to speak to him about our differences but I appreciate EO.
I was Protestant for 25 years. I became Orthodox after 5 years of inquiring and attending divine Liturgy for a year and I haven't looked back. There is nothing as fulfilling as the Orthodox faith. There is nothing like Divine Liturgy.
I honestly don't see how anyone could convert to Eastern Orthodox if they love God and obey His word...Its so full of clear idolatry and has almost no respect for the Bible. I even called into Jay Dyer's program one day and challenged him on icon veneration and he said "Its clearly taught in Galatians 3:1 Karen", and then kicked me off the stream. It was clear he couldn't defend it. And icon veneration is just one issue among many.
As someone else commented, this shows the inconsistency in the criticism of us. You, Gavin, and others regard iconography as idolatry and the Scriptures teach that idolaters do not inherit the Kingdom of God. So if you think we're idolaters, how can you say you view us as fellow Christians? FWIW, Jay Dyer holds no official position in the Orthodox Church.
Something I’ve noticed with these videos (specifically when they’re addressing anything concerning the Eastern Orthodox Church) is that the vast majority of the comments contain absolutely no responses to the actual claims made in the video (which Gavin always does a great job carefully articulating), but rather sink to insults, ad-hominems, question-begging assertions, and what-aboutisms. I’d love to see some actual engagement from EO’s that doesn’t resort to one of those types of responses.
the thing is, orthodox believe they put together the Bible for everyone else and that we dont even use the right Bible. They have a ton of books not accepted in most canons and they claim to be the only right ones. its ridiculous
@@easytiger35 Why is it ridiculous? Why do trust a single troubled monk like Luther to remove 7 books from the bible? The Septuagint is referenced over 300 times in the NT. Jesus and his disciples most definitely studied the Septuagint as scripture yet Luther and you take your Canon from what the Jews who denied Jesus decided hundreds of years after Christ.
By what measuring stick can you say that tradition had erred? It’s not inconsistent with scripture. If on the other hand you object that it’s not CLEAR in scripture (e.g. icon veneration), then the problem is scripture itself literally says there are vehicles outside of itself for revealing truth (e.g. the spiritual gift of prophecy, look up prophetic tradition in the early church).
@@stratmatt22 I dont know of anyone who believes in "whatever Luther did is right". He was one of the people calling out how far off base the church of the time was....with their liturgies and rituals and the "church fathers" having final interpretation of scripture without discussion or nuance. Orthodox almost always straw man's the arguments against them. Many, many Christian theologians can explain why exactly we all use the same books in canons, except some like orthodox and catholic have some extras in there to support their claim of supremacy. By believing orthodox is THE only church, you have essentially completely missed what "the church" even is, yet always so confidently incorrect.
Most evangelicals transfer their fundamentalism to Eastern Orthodoxy missing the vast spirituality and theology in the East that lacks said fundamentalism. Many non western Orthodox are alarmed by this.
Yes, eastern Orthodoxy is much bigger than any 'systematic theology'. They would not prescribe God what He should or should not be doing. All they are saying is that Orthodoxy is the Fulness of Truth. (Protestant inquirer here)
@@janen668 "Protestant enquirer here." Didn't you just called Protestants Herectic?? Funny! It's obvious you don't know what Protestanism entails for you to call it Herectical
@@raphaelfeneje486 As a (still protestant) inquirer I am in the process of deciding that the EO church is the true church, and that I want to be a catechumen soon, and fully Orthodox after that.
@@janen668 "I am in the process of deciding....." You've already decided. You called all protestants Herectic. You're a Herectic pending when you go into the eastern orthodox church. Jesus would really be smiling at you condemning fellow Christians who's fruit of the spirit are visible and they have a walk with God. After all, Jesus told you the one true church is the EO and you aren't saved by believing in him, but by joining an institution
Orthodox people who deny that we believe there is no salvation outside of the Church need to hear this and be rebuked so thank you Gavin for accurately displaying through Theophan what we believe. I knew this teaching leaving Protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy almost a year ago and this teaching Gavin is elaborating on is actually one of the big reasons I knew it was the truth. This idea that all people who claim to be Christians must be saved is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Mark 9 does not justify being a heretic and teaching a false gospel. Jesus said Not everyone who calls him Lord will be saved...this is the exact problem Gavin has with Eastern Orthodoxy which teaches exactly what Christ taught! There is only one church because there is only one visible distinguishable covenant body and bride of the Lord. I say this as lovingly as I can but Gavin doesnt understand our obsession with church because he doesnt understand theosis...the concept of the church of God being literally conjoined to Christ. We become one with Him in the church. We receive His actual flesh and become His literal body. (Eph 4:30) To be one with the church is to be one with Jesus who deifies it. Thats what is missing in Protestantism. There is no true church or deification through the sacraments and priesthood EXACTLY as Theophan says and its not just him. Read Athanasius, Cyprian, Ambrose of Milan, Irenaeus, Ignatius (disciple of the apostle John), and especially Augustine of Hippo who Protestants claim to love and agree with. They all speak with one voice! "He can not have God for His father who does not have the church for his mother!" -Augustine
Fun quote I found while making an attempt to understand eastern orthodoxy - "And there are the words of the Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad a very conservative theologian: 9 "It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non- Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics-i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way
Exactly. And if you read other things he wrote, he'll sound a lot like the picture Dr Ortlund is painting in this video. And yet, both things come from the same man and he wasn't incoherent in his theology. Both are true. The Scriptures speak in exactly the same sort of way, but the apparent contradiction only exists on the surface.
and it is historically normal use of the word heretic to call those outside the church heretics, mormons are heretics, hold herretical beliefs, dont need to be synodally condemned
This is a good video idea. A lot of people jump in because there's a lot of good apologetics from Christianity that have been painted as uniquely Eastern Orthodox (the TAG argument for example) when there's nothing uniquely EO about them at all. To anyone looking into EO, just remember to approach topics with intellectual honesty. I recommend the channel "dwong", who is a Roman Catholic (I am not), for a refutation of the EO position's on the Filioque, and the Essence-Energy distinction. If you're convinced that EO is wrong on those topics you can't convert if you're an intellectually honest person.
All churches had this mindset until just recently, and the orthodox attitude is changing on this as well. No church is perfect, and i think there is some good to be taken from all traditions, but doctrinally the orthodox has the most to offer.
Dr. Ortlund does it again. Brings the clarity and hopefully get the young, westless and religious to think twice before having to pack TWICE, and back to Sola Scriptura (where we ALL should be).
Dr. O takes another L and sola-scriptura is the fruit of division. "my interpretation is right and yours is wrong". Tell me what it is that you or your pastor Bob has that Christ himself lacked?
I talked to a guy who had converted to EO and shared his witness to me. I was interested and asked him if he could clarify some positions for me such as their view of Ancestral sin. He said “I do not know, I just follow EO for their Saints” it dawned on me as I talk to more and more converts that these people converted for the aesthetic and culture, NOT the theology.
Tho some do that it isnt wrong if theyre guided/taught by their fr/pastor. Some atm in their life may not be able to articulate it, doesnt negate what they experienced as invalid or wrong. For some are mini theologians/studious more than others & others are more visual. But trust me, you'll find both sides of the aisles in many churches along with community.
definitely what it seems like. They will quote scripture to back up a view, but then they claim that the Bible is not the Word of God and that really their church history and official interpretations are the final say in everything. They think we have to go to THEM to even get the right interpretation. The essentially refuse to give the power all to God and cling to holding their own power through their specific buildings, rituals, and idol worship. They are more into physical reality than invisible spirituality.
I know very many converts from protestantism to EO, and not one converted because of the saints. In fact, the saints are ofen a difficulty that many need to overcome because of their protestantism. Many convert because of the assurance of the faith of the early Church, and the fullness and reverence of the worship within tons of Scripture that it involves.
In the process of exploring RC & EO , apart from all kinds of theological issues - At the end of the day my primary discomfort is this - ‘ The bride is not supposed to be in love with . . . the bride - The bride is supposed to be in love with . .. . the GROOM ! ! 🤵♂️🤵♂️🤵♂️
As you are exploring, I'm sure that your attendance at Orthodox Divine Liturgies will very clearly clarify and affirm this for you. Christ himself is at the very heart and centre.
“The mercies of God are not bound by the visible boundaries of the Church. God alone knows the heart, and He judges not as man judges. God’s ways are beyond our understanding, and His grace can act upon all who seek Him sincerely.” “We do not have the right to judge the fate of those outside the Church. Rather, we trust in the boundless mercy of God, who desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. He will judge each according to his heart.” “The Church is the vessel of salvation, and yet, we cannot say that grace is absent from those who sincerely seek God, even if they do not yet know the fullness of the truth. God prepares each soul in His own way.” - SAINT THEOPHAN THE RECLUSE we take someone’s theology, not three pages of it. Also, yeah, what he said is accurate, anglicans we’re going into well established Russian EO neighborhoods and calling people to the name of Christ, that’s fine, but also a slightly off interpretation. Of course people are going to reject that.
Just the fact that I was saved and knew the Lord without EO, for me, demolishes their entire system--they say I can't be saved, and they can't err, so they've already erred, so they're not inerrant. If they want to, now, concede I can be saved without them, what reason would i have for joining them?
@@micahcrider2108 I only meant for my own self in my own life. There're many other arguments that could be made outside of what my own life shows me for myself (and what convinces me for my own life isn't substantive for anyone else).
You are already saved, and you know it as fact?! I know only one way to know this as fact - it is to die and get to heaven. So you are in Heaven I guess. ...Wow! I didn't know that there's Internet access in Heaven?! Say Hi to apostle Paul for me.
@@Aleksandr-Herman Ephesians 2 "saved" past-tense. I agree there is ongoing salvation and final salvation, but those facts don't negate the past tense salvation.
@@erichenkel4393you guys are murdering each other on the Ukraine-Russian battlefield. Your priests are blessing weapons of war to help murder each other more. Get real with your man-made religion that has NOTHING to do with Jesus.
@@MusculusPulveriGrace can be outside of the church and works of the spirit depending on the person or whatever the case may be, but the body of Christ is the Eastern Orthodox Church, it is one body.
@@MusculusPulverithen why does Christ tell his apostles to make bishops teach them properly and make sure this continues saying they carry the grace of God if there isnt a historical institution? if you deny this then you deny the early church, the source of everything protestantism comes from, you unroot yourself when you admit you deny Christ's promise.
I too was very very wary (and even contemptuous) of the claims of exclusivity of salvation by the Orthodox Church back when I was staunchly in the Reformed tradition. The doctrine of the “invisible church” was comforting and, though I wouldn’t have put it this way back then, the idea of the “invisible church” does solve many of the questions that Protestantism inherently poses. So I held on pretty tightly to the doctrine of the “invisible church” and I was much grieved by the claims of exclusivity of the Orthodox Church. But you do have to draw the line somewhere; all Christians (unless you’re in the universalist camp) are going to need to draw a line. When I was reformed and a believer in the “invisible church,” I knew that Mormons were not Christians because, to put it succinctly, they reject the Nicene Creed. Ok, so then that’s the line: The Creed. But why? And relevantly, did the writers of the Creed intend for the line about the “Catholic, Apostolic Church” to mean the “invisible church?” Seeing as this doctrine is undeniably rejected by the Nicene Church fathers, we have to conclude no. So then… the line becomes clearer: there is a Church, that isn’t invisible, that Christians are a part of. Then the question is, of course, what is that Church? Am I in it? How do I know? These questions lead to a clear answer if you’re honest. The “invisible church” doctrine became the weak stopper that was holding the flood at bay. Because if Protestants don’t have the “invisible church” idea, everything comes tumbling down. At the end, the one thing I hated so vehemently about the Orthodox Church became the very thing I could no longer deny and led me to the Church. The claims of exclusivity are harsh to those outside of it who revile the implications of what it would mean if they allow themselves to admit it is the truth.
The thing that Gavin seems so shocked about is something that the whole of Christianity believed for 1,000 years before the Schism, and continued to believe. Otherwise, people may as well believe whatever they want.
The response to the response to the response is already being prepared!😂 Great to see you doing this. So helpful. I too was pondering if EO were committing ecclesiolatry: equating the Bride to their institutions and even to Christ Himself with no wiggle room. All else is considered a dead branch by many Orthodox. And I know from within...! Great people, amazing liturgies but if you really get into scripture the difference is so remarkable. Its why they proof text rather than do expository preaching and study saints rather than the Bible typically. God bless them though, they have much to share if they can get beyond infallible canons that wall them into ecclesial exclusivism. I've changed and my allegiance is to Christ, not an institution, Bishop or priest. Scripture is setting me free of this salvation by church and priest approach, because its tone is so different to the NT message as a whole.
It’s not about institution at all it’s about the correct faith. The NT is super explicit that there is one faith and that those teaching something else aren’t part of the church. This is also the view of the entire early church, the medieval church east and west, and many Protestant reformers
Saint Ignatius said we need to look to our bishop as God himself. He claimed these were not his own words but were a divine revelation from the Holy Spirit, and he died as a martyr to prove it. Then the church unanimously conformed to what he taught for thousands of years.
@@EricTheYoungerwell OK buddy. But if it takes you far from the Gospel and the Word of God it won't help you one bit. Money, corruption and power airbrushed the Gospel early doors and still does! Scripture: check everything by it. ❤
I think in any organized community, there will be the systematisers, and the heart people. There are different systems, after contradictory, within which the heart that trusts, which is one, can live and thrive.
Although some Eastern Orthodox Priests will publicly say that outside the Eastern Orthodox Church, Christ can meet people in whatever way He wants, or that, if God chooses, there is grace/salvation outside the Eastern Orthodox Church, the struggle will be whether that is just a fragmented local position not reduced to official writing like a Church council. Moreover, since words do matter, it could result in frustration with the lack of consistency on what should be a very important spiritual matters. Unfortunately, IMHO, there is no perfect Church Tradition when you only consider the weightier matters like the Canon, theology proper, & worship, so one must ultimately pick their poison and try to live in peace with whatever decision they make towards obeying Christ.
Thank you Dr Ortlund, and peace be with you. It is so hard to have these conversations with people who have a mistaken or weakened veiw of what their own tradition has and does teach, especially with the anathemas!
"It is not for us to define the state of those who are outside the Orthodox Church. If God wishes to grant salvation to some who are Christians in the best way they know, but without ever knowing the Orthodox Church-that is up to Him, not us. But when He does this, it is outside the normal way that He established for salvation-which is in the Church, as a part of the Body of Christ." - Fr. Seraphim Rose
Gavin you have been great for me. Your conversation with Craig Trulia convinced me that Icons have been part of Christian and Jewish worship from the start. Now you highlight that the Church is confident in what has been handed down from Christ through the apostles. Thank you and may God bless you.
@@morghe321 exactly. They become orthodox for 5 seconds, listen to some egotistical online debaters and boom they have full authority over any and all claims to faith outside of their own.
Well done, Dr Gavin. In my experience, such clarity about the real and full expectations as to what constitutes salvation is not done during catechesis in the EO Church. One finds out by way of videos such as you produce, which point us back to the simplicity of Christ, as well as dogged scripture study and prayer. The thing that was decisive for me in pulling out of the OC was a homily in which it was clearly said that to be Orthodox meant an unconditional embrace of the 7 Councils. By that time I was had explored the politics of Empress Irene and her influence on Nicea 2. Couldn’t live with that or the excessive attributions of the Marian prayers. You have well defined here how they view what it means to be saved by the OC. Thank you. This is a serious matter. Keep up the strong work, and God bless and protect you.
. . . and, what do you think of Emperor Constantine's machinations during Nicea I? Also, sorry (not sorry): You just can't get rid of Christ's Mother in the plan of salvation, . . . so, deal.
Gavin, I appreciate this video. I was not aware of this letter from Fr. Theophan despite being an Eastern Orthodox Catechumen. I found nothing scandalizing, though, after watching the video, so I suppose that means I at least know what I am getting into. I agree, though, I do love the directness with which Fr. Theophan speaks in this letter. I would like to respond with a few notes from myself, as an Eastern-Orthodox Catechumen- both for you and others considering your arguments against Orthodoxy. I apologize for wordiness, but I want to lay out our understanding of what you brought up (as best as I can, and in no capacity an official representative of the Church, since I am not yet Baptized). 6:30 - The entire point of this passage in Mark 9 is that if he is truly for Christ, he will wind up in The Church eventually anyways and be united with them. Also, this was before Pentecost, when The Church was set up 16:35 - Regarding this "Simple, repentance-based Gospel message," I simply do not think there is any proof in Scripture of such a requirement of "The Gospel" to be so "simple." In fact, I think what Fr. Theophan presents around 21:30 is fairly reasonable, and not that complicated; only complicated in comparison to the common Evangelical Gospel preached these days. My Deacon said to me the other day: The Faith is not supposed to be complicated. It's supposed to be lived. If you sincerely seek Christ and life in him within the Church, you will fulfill what Fr. Theophan has listed. 19:15 - The only place "justified by faith alone" appears in Scripture is in James 2. "You see then that a man is justified by works, and NOT by faith only." James directly tells us that we are also justified by works. The common reading of Protestants that this is only about external Justification in the eyes of others doesn't make any sense, and it makes us a slave to the perceptions of others. The Confession of Dositheos, Decree 13, explains this well: "We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love, that is to say, through faith and works. But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ, and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all Orthodoxy. For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but the faith which is in us, justifies through works, with Christ. But we regard works not as witnesses certifying our calling, but as being fruits in themselves, through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises {cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10} that each of the Faithful may receive what is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad." I know, perhaps, this may seem like an overplayed response, using James 2 (I'm sure you see it all the time), but it must be said. James very clearly lays out the role works have in our Salvation: James 2:22 - Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" 21:25 - "That sounds pretty exacting" - well, it is. 1 Timothy 3:15 - The Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth. Rebelling against the Church is rebelling against the Truth, and Christ, as it is the BODY of Christ. I don't think he says anything unreasonable. 23:30 - Correct, no salvation outside of the Church. If someone is saved outside the Church, it is because God mystically unites them to the Body of Christ, The Church, when they die because he finds it fitting. This is an extraordinary circumstance though, not the normative means of salvation. And I find this no more scandalizing than saying "Christianity is the only true religion." As far as this "serious concern of 2,000,000,000 Christians in the West"... I find this simply to be an emotional appeal. 24:45 - "Is the Eastern Orthodox Church the savior instead of Jesus" - The Orthodox Church IS The Body of Christ. So it is not either/or, but one and the same. The Church is the Body of Christ here on Earth. Christ has given us the Orthodox Church and the Sacraments for our Salvation. Idolatry of the Church would be very difficult to achieve, because you'd have to first embrace a misunderstanding that the Church is a separate entity from Christ, and then hold it in higher regard than God himself. The only example of this that may come to mind is the Orthobro phenomena, where Orthobros idolize an IDEA of the Church they have in their head as this based, red-pilled, political thing as opposed to Death to the World, Spiritual transformation. 29:16 - Seeing as this entire video uses Theophan as the de facto view of Salvation in Orthodoxy, I think it would only be fair to also include this quote from him about Salvation of the Heterodox. "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever" Frankly, this painting of the two options you frame is very deceptive and is, again, more of an appeal to emotion. "Either he is wrong and his entire tradition is wrong, or all these other 2,000,000,000 are damned." Yet, as you should see from this quote FROM THEOPHAN, it is not that cut and dry. 30:00 - How do we explain with this supposed second of our only 2 logical conclusions, the miracles, the hospitals, empire of Christianity, etc outside of Orthodoxy? I will do my best to answer (even though this was a false dichotomy you provided to use, since as shown above, Fr Theophan does not leave it so cut and dry. 1) Miracles themselves can never be proof of which faith is the true faith. There are "miracles" that occur in other religions outside of Christianity. Appealing to these other "miracles" does not prove anything, really. Within Orthodoxy, we can take miracles such as the wonderworking Icons as affirmations that strengthen our faith, but not proof of the Church in and of themselves. because as you say, Pentecostals could go "But look here! We have faith healings and speaking in tongues!" and Catholics may say "Look! We have Eucharistic Miracles." I think his Bible verse may address your appeal to miracles: Matthew 7 - v22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ v23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 2) As far as Matthew 7:18 - A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit - will have to get back to this, however, using this to disprove any ecclesiastical exclusivity is a dangerous game, because then you as a heretic, or member of another religion, can point to the good deeds you have done as proof that your religion/sect is a "good tree." So I don't think regardless this disproves our views. 3) Number games are irrelevant when it comes to Doctrine and Dogmas of the Faith. This applies both outside of Christianity, and "within" Christianity, speaking inter-denominationally. 30:45 - Again, a mischaracterization, requiring us to unambiguously label all outside the Church, all actions, teachings, people, as all-together "completely dark, heretical, falsehood." There are bits of truth and goodness even in other RELIGIONS. However, they are still outside the Church, and are still riddled with falsehood. Feeding a homeless man from the kindness of your heart is a good work and Godly act whether you're Orthodox, Protestant, Buddhist, Luciferian, etc. I find your characterization of the conclusions of Orthodoxy to be pretty baseless and misleading, to be honest. 31:00 Once again. Even though you erroneously conclude the universal, unambiguous damnation of all non-Orthodox, a quote from the SAME MAN WHOSE LETTER YOU ARE READING: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Savior Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." Bearing in mind Matthew 7:1 - "Judge not, lest ye be judged." There are very few situations where can know an individual to be damned for certain. But we know that as Orthodox Christians, WE must be in the Church to be saved. There is a big emphasis on focusing on our own sins and deep, continued repentance that you seem to be either unaware of or not mentioning in this video. 32:30 - I will only bring up that despite what you say about Calvin, he set up a very strict Theocracy in which he punished people who went against him or his teachings. This buddy-buddy modern Protestant ecumenism is just as much an innovation as you often accuse the views of some modern Orthodox as being. I also think it's silly to act like Protestantism is this united front, when the historical practice has been closed-communion (especially among Lutherans). Since communion is, in part, a statement of theological agreement, being in the same Church. If this view of Protestantism you have were the case, would not all Protestants practice open communion with each other?
34:30 - "Can you really stand before Christ and say you submitted to a system that requires you to reject 85% of those who can say the Apostles Creed" ... Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Matthew 7:14 - Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Again, just an appeal to emotion. Yes, it is the hard truth that most Christians are outside the Church. That doesn't make it any less correct. The New Testament is dripping with warnings of false doctrine, apostasy, false prophets, wolves in sheeps' clothing, etc. We MUST remain vigilant. I hope others considering or critical of Orthodoxy found this response to Gavin helpful.
Great writeup, and it's nice to see your view as a catechumen. I've been struggling with my doubts about protestantism and am heavily looking into orthodoxy. Thank you for clearly laying out this rebuttal.
You can join the OC without damning everyone else or your past experiences. Trust that God is not bound by water tight arguments and that he is free by his own will to produce fruit and work out the salvation of others outside the OC. We can hold this understanding while remaining squarely in the OC humbly doing our best to follow the safest and clearest path laid out for us. Is this not a third option? Please let an Priest in the tradition be an authority on this matter in your life.
@@TruthUnites To play devil's advocate, what exactly is gained by becoming Protestant? No more free will? Interpret the Bible however you want? Condemn everyone else for *not* being Protestant? The nice thing about Orthodoxy is that all the things that make tradition beautiful - free will, the Eucharist, confession, reading the writings of the saints, etc - are so much more valuable than the empty "Jesus did everything - you can do nothing" message of what Protestant churches have to offer. People should talk with a priest, discover it on their own, not just assume Martin Luther in his crass obsessiveness was correct.
Gavin, thank you for engaging. I do believe you care deeply about those who engage with your videos. I think very highly of you. I dont think this view is fundamentally different either. Im no apologist though and it is not my place to try. I hope you engage with more priests about this topic soon. All i can speak to is my genuine effort to seek and become like christ. This is the attitude of many converts i know. We are counseled to trust God in the eternal destiny of none orthodox and to do our best to love and pray for all people. Thats it. I wish none orthodox making judgements about the church would see this.
@@matthewmeyer3483 What you are writing is exactly why so many young men are looking towards tradition. The focus is "With my free will, how can I live a life that's pleasing to God"? This idea of focusing on one's own sin and correcting it with God's help seems so foreign to the typical Protestant Tradition of "Jesus did everything so let's just spend our time pointing out everyone else's flaws."
@@pianoatthirty Gavin's point about his belief that through faith alone he is saved, and by grace, 'works' flow from that, pretty much affirms your points. If there are no works, then you weren't saved, and the 'saving event' didn't somehow work. It's quite unbiblical, because if this were the case, all that Christ taught about the works required of us to have salvation were rather pointless.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. I had attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy this weekend and was surprised when the priest’s sermon focused entirely on the saint whose day the liturgy was being held for. There was no mention of evangelism, forgiveness of sins, Christ’s Kingdom, it was all focused on following the liturgy. The grass is not always greener, guys. If you are some form of protestant and you leave for Eastern Orthodoxy, you are giving up good, long sermons focusing on teaching the word.
Protestant here who has attended a couple of Divine Liturgies. Were you able to follow along with the Liturgy? Because all of those things you say weren't in the sermon are in the Liturgy. Long sermons aren't the be-all, end-all of Christian worship.
@@WeakestAvenger The liturgy was actually quite difficult to follow. It switched from Greek to English at random points between hymns. And in the liturgy, the priest and deacon were off doing their own thing in front of the altar. It made me feel like I was only observing the service and never actually participating in it. That is another issue I had, that the service was mostly in Greek. It negates the idea of the catholic (universal) church the Orthodox claim they are. If I can’t partake in the full liturgy, why bother? Your church will always be a tiny minority if you don’t preach to the people in a language they understand.
Orthodox sermons are always to do with the feast or the story of the saint of the day, relating it to our lives and path to Christ. The worship is more important than the preaching. Bible and book study groups deal with other aspects, but the services are choc-o-bloc with the other things you mention.
Keep in mind that priests should be most concerned with the needs of the parishioners. His preaching is also not required to speak to the text directly. The homily is not academic Bible study time. It is the time for the flock to be given the medicine they need, which might mean hearing about the Saint being celebrated.
@@wormius7350 Because a particular Church's services were in Greek, that negates the universality of Orthodoxy? There's a Korean language Protestant church not far from my house. If I visited, would that negate Protestantism? Most Orthodox parishes in the United States worship in English. Those that don't are often responding to the needs of the people in the congregation. Some do hold on to their language of ethnic heritage too long, but that's true elsewhere as well. Growing up as a Protestant, our services still had a lot of German in them.
The more I think about it, this is a topic that should bring about some degree of fear and trembling. You do mention this near the end of the video. Taking into account the lessons of Mark 9 as well as warnings, and also the commandments from 1 John that we liberally love one another without exception on the basis of the liberality of God's love for all of us... it is clear that we must all by faith see the savior go to the cross for all of us, for all of our sins, and an immediate consequence is that we are not competing we all need Christ equally because we are all sinners. Instead of competing, the command is clear: encourage one another, be kind, *even if there are differences*.
Indeed. This quote is at the heart of Orthodoxy. The writing that Gavin used of St Theophan was to Orthodox being draw away. It wasn't directed towards those outside the Church. Theophan in another letter said not to be concerned about those outside Orthodoxy, but consider our own sins, and God decides in his love about each person, regardless of where they are. We must love all.
But Dr Gavin, is this not like the way protestant view JW or Mormons? The way a lot of protestant traditions view Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism? You said it yourself, your deep concern that adherents of the Eastern Orthodox faith may very well have their church as an idol, becoming idolaters. Do you believe there are idolaters in heaven? You sound just as worried as St Theophan. Shedding tears for lost lambs and both fighting for your flock and your faith. So I admire your pastoral care for the weary christians seeking other boats, but beware that your views as shown in this video is the same way non-christians view us christians.
protestants try not to use "ill pray for you" as a statement to bash people with challenge impossible; whenever you cant defend your beliefs just tell the other party youll pray for them, Phariseemaxxing
The devil works hard but Gavin works harder!! Thank you SO much Gavin for all the research, reading, studying, & of course production of your videos. Please please please continue these bc way too many devout Protestants are crossing over to Orthodoxy without the slightest clue of what they’re really submitting to… Lord please bring people back to your Word & to Christ alone🙏🏻😔❤️
So, St. Theophan says something spot on. How I've wished Christian apologists would focus on non-Christians rather than fellow Christians. I imagine that this would be more challenging and result in fewer clicks.
If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that there's no such thing as false conversions? If you agree that there are people who believe they're saved, yet are not, then why should no one be concerned with the final destination of these unsaved, same as those equally unsaved who don't even claim to be a Christian? For me, all souls matter equally, whether they're among the church or outside of it. Edit: I didn't initially realize how many EOs are here to disagree with Dr. Ortlund. I'd you're EO, then yah, we won't agree on what criteria points toward a false conversion, etc.
@@easytiger35common bro, let’s not stoop to such levels. They are baptized in the name of the Father,Son, and Holy Spirit. Also, they confess Christ to be Lord. They are Christian. The Orthodox need to accept our baptism and we need to accept theirs as well. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Once we Christians realize that we all have a seat at the table we will be able to have real conversations and resolve real differences. This animosity has got to go though
@@FireSquad101 i dont believe they are following scripture by requiring more than faith to be saved. therefore their view of salvation is flawed from the start. If its not by faith alone, its like any other religion that holds human works as a requirement.
This is my remaining hesitation at a personal level with becoming EO. In principle though, as an objection it resembles that which atheists & other religions might say about Christianity more broadly understood, just a step removed: "are you really saying these good vituous people outside of christianity are damned?"
The difference is in your example, the other religions and atheists aren't in agreement of the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the inerrancy of the Bible, etc.
Gavin's objections are about something believed by the whole Church since the 1st century. Basically, there can only be one truth. And if someone chooses to reject it, then they are quite likely damned. What Gavin is not confronting is that this text by Theophan was to Orthodox Christians being pulled away from the Church's truth. It was not directed to Protestants. Theophan wrote a very different letter regarding Protestants, saying that people should consider their own sins before thinking about the sins or warwardness of others... and that God wishes all to be saved, and we do not know the mind of God. We cannot judge.
@@matthew7491protestants arent in agreement on theology,different trinitarian understandings, different creeds, different concepts of Christ's divinity. also mormons believe in a kind of trinitarianism, they affirm the deity of Christ, they affirm the Bible or claim to (similar to protestants who supposedly affirm the Bible but are missing 8 books) why arent mormons christians if they fulfill that vague arbitrary criteria you gave?
To me, EO has the Gospel, but lots of additional bells and whistles, but they say the bells and whistles are necessary, and that's the flaw. I'd considered joining RC and EO, but couldn't, because of the bells and whistles.
I come from EO. No protestant convinced me to leave it. When I heard the Gospel from one, that was the moment I actually understood what Jesus did for us and from that moment I began to read the Bible and listen to apologetics regarding the existence of God. So nothing that would be against Orthodox or Catholic for quite a while. Yet the bells and whistles you talk about were too heavy on my conscience and I did end up letting it go. I would cringe when I would hear a church song and if before I did not pay attention to the words, now I could not help but spot when they include veneration and even worship to Mary. You can only take that for so long... I am convinced by the text of the Bible, especially the Psalms, that God wants a relationship with you of a nature that is separate and intimate - you and Him only. And also by how it is clear that all glory, worship, and prayers go to HIm and that there is none, even the most saint of the saints that can come close enough to such worthiness to be considered to be ok to receive such veneration. Everybody is just like Isaiah said - full of filthy rags (by comparison). And that includes Mary.
I think you misunderstand EO teachings. Im also trying to learn more abb EO. and as i understand it seems to me that the Gospel and the “bells and whistles” are not seperate as u talk abb it. Rather they see what you call “Gospel and bells and whistles” as the Gospel itself. So in the EO view its not that they added to the Gospel but thay protestanst just have a “half” gospel, so to speak. I hope it makes sense. This is my understanding so far as. im trying to learn more myself
@@shammy-thaynemaximiliana9146 Right, so, as I said, they make the bells and whistles "necessary", but, if that is the case, how do I know the Lord, and how has He transformed me, when I'm not EO? It doesn't add up.
@TruthUnites I'll preface this with the caveat that I am not Eastern Orthodox, but I'm curious how you would respond to an attempted reconciliation between St. Theophan's message and the Eastern doctrine of apocatastasis. Basically, it would seem in the light of apocatastasis that St. Theophan's words would need to be understood as establishing the criteria for an epistemic certainty of one's salvation but communicated pastorally in a firm manner to discourage a vulnerable son from going astray (in his perspective). It seems regardless of how you understand apocatastasis that some not within the visible bounds of Orthodoxy will be reconciled to God and saved, and that St. Theophan's message is in some way compatible with that doctrine assuming St. Theophan holds to it or that he would at least not condemn the faithful Orthodox who do like St. Gregory of Nyssa. Given that interpretation, the Eastern Orthodox position as put by St. Theophan would seem far closer if not identical to the Roman Catholic doctrine expounded in places like Lumen Gentium 16. Admittedly, I would need to carry out a thorough reading of his work and study the theology of apocatastasis before making any confident assertion. Your thoughts are appreciated!
Icons are objectively beautiful and tell stories of the churches rich history. They have always been around even well before nicea 2. Anyone who rejects it has a load of problems, they must explain why it is that we need to throw away thousands of years of church history because pastor Bob with no basis of authority says so
All the pre-schism saints are retained. Moreover, you are allowed to have wrong thoughts and ideas and still be Orthodox. The main issue is if you are teaching that idea and refuse to give up those ideas when the church corrects you on it. Even moreso if you continue teaching that idea after being told it was wrong. This is also why Augustine is a saint, he said some troubling things but recanted and even said he wasn't sure if he is right and if isn't to ignore him.
Tldr; Being Christian doesn't turn you into a mindless all knowing robot. This is why we must pray and turn to God and make sure we are getting our ideas from him.
@@david_porthouse When they split off in the great schism... Keep in mind it was/had been debated for awhile. Even people like Maximus the confessor talked about it and was fine with it meaning through the son but not to be used as from the son himself. Where the former was fine and the latter was heretical. Even today most Orthodox agree (or at least the ones that I've heard mention this) that through isn't heretical.
I would suggest an orthodox apologist seraphim hamilton who is also responding to these contentions from ortlund & other protestants. Hope it helps godspeed friends 🙏✝️☦️
Genuine question about something. So, the claim is that one should not become a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, because they would be committing to a congregation that historically has essentially said "our way is the only way". Okay, but consider this; isn't it the exact same case for the Protestant position in a video like this? If it really is the case that there are true bothers and sisters in Christ across Protestants, Catholics and EOs... why would Protestants feel the need to keep anyone OUT of any one of them equally? It just seems to me like a case of "rules for thee, but not for me". As in, my appeal for you not to join EO does not apply equally to Catholic or EO appeals for you to not join Protestantism for... reasons. I don't know those reasons, why wouldn't it apply equally? Really does seem like one's advocation of their own sect is a "this is right, and that is not, so don't join that" situation regardless of what side one is on.
We affirm that our Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox brothers are Christians and can be saved. But there are serious errors within those churches that could jeopardize the salvation of a Christian within that church. That is why we would try to dissuade people from converting. Our way isn't the only way to follow Christ, but we believe it is the best way.
@@brando3342no. They do not traditionally affirm others are Christian. This is changing slowly. From the Catholic side this changed a lot with Vatican 2.
I had the same thought. It seems harsh, but I was unsurprised by the content of the letter. We are so used to the liberality of “many ways have something true in them” that we are surprised when someone says “we are right and the rest are wrong”
Right, but the context is to someone who is already part of the Church. He is warning them against following those outside the Church, which is standard and obvious from an Orthodox perspective. But Bishop Theophan is also famously quoted as saying "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." So, this quote I just provided gives a fuller context. His words apply most immediately to those who are apart of the Church who are tempted to fall into heresy. As for those outside of the Church who have never been illumined and tasted of the heavenly gift, he has a more ambigious statement: "He will take care of them." So, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien? Do I need to be burdened as an Orthodox Christian with whether nor not God will save them? Bishop Theophan says "God will take care of them." But my own soul? I need to be very much concerned with that.
I love what you pointed out at the end about the Protestant influence on the thinking of modern Roman Catholics and Orthodox. One of the main reasons that I see people converting away from Protestantism is that one of these other churches has the "ancient faith" or something like that. And yet their thinking on this topic does not reflect the ancient teachings of their church, and instead is influenced by the Protestants that they so look down upon 😂 I'd love to know if there are other areas where Protestant teaching has influenced the views of modern RC and Orthodox.
All appeals made by any EO folks to look "more ancient" and "more faithful to the sacred tradition" will instantly cease to be effective when they have to explain why the True/Genuine EO and World EO (not to mention the Old Believers) can be divided over "trivial" stuffs, and that this somehow would cause one to be either saved or not saved. Imagine yourself being outside the "ark of salvation" simply because you celebrate Christmas either two weeks earlier or later than the supposed one true church.
I'm of the opinion that a large number of clergy (of all or most religions) are quick to demonize others not because of spiritual or theological issues, but to protect their livelihood and guard their influence. Where would the Bishop be if all his people started meeting at the bookbinder's house?
You don't seem to know about the life of St Theophan if you think he was worried about protecting his livelihood. He was a monk who was made a bishop against his will, begged to be allowed to return to being a simple monk, and even when he was allowed to retire and made abbot of a monastery, he asked to be allowed to retire from that position as well. He wanted to live as simply as possible and was known for shunning any luxury.
The truth or falsity of St Theophan's claims shouldn't be influenced by appealing emotionally to what that would mean for billions of Christians in the West, otherwise the same logic would lead one necessarily to universalism. The number of Muslims and other non Christians is greater than the number of non Orthodox Western Christians, and each of them is a person created in the image and likeness of God, someone for whom Christ died. What about the salvation of all of those billions? "Utter lack of love" indeed! Obviously, you would say that they should be evangelized and that the truth of what the Bible teaches isn't hindered by that consideration. Rather, there would be more benefit in trying to understand how people like St Theophan and others can both speak positively of salvation of non Orthodox Christians and yet speak like he does in this letter. Another example would be Fr Seraphim Rose, often considered to be a stark opponent of ecumenism and a proponent of the necessity of the Orthodox Church, and yet also speaks of Protestants as having a real relationship with Christ and potential for salvation. And it simply isn't true that Orthodoxy, in the particular band of centuries you're restricting yourself to in order to make your point, taught differently than before or after. See, for example, St Theophylact of Ochrid in the late 11th century, the earliest Orthodox views of Anglicanism, etc
@TruthUnites I mean no disrespect, but it can absolutely be both, and comments here show that it was taken as such. People are responding by accusing us of thinking it's "based" to imagine our ancestors in Hell.
@@TruthUnites Also, the comment in the video that it would show an "utter lack of love" to condemn two billion Western Christians to hell is different than saying it would show a lack of the discernment Christ commands us to have. Those are separate arguments. Pointing out that you said it would show a lack of discernment doesn't mean it's all that you said. The logic of it being "unloving" absolutely applies more broadly and leads to universalism.
@@TruthUnitesit is an emotional appeal, i can say the same thing for non christians lol, and its no wonder since protestantism is slowly melting into the one world religion; you will be saying these same things to justify your praying with muslims and hindus soon.
I am Orthodox and see massive blind spots to Gavin's "unavoidable implications" that are consistently brought up. He paints a contradiction between historical Orthodox teaching and modern teaching where there is no contradiction. I do not understand why this is a blind spot when Protestants themselves also engage with this same exact tension: Drawing the boundaries of salvation in no uncertain terms (deemed as the historical emphasis), while simultaneously leaving those outside to God's judgement (deemed as the modern emphasis). These two things do not exist in contradiction, and it is something *all* do. Does Gavin or any other Protestant for that matter feel confident in judging those outside of the faith? Would you be confident in stating whether all Non-Christians are absolutely damned? Using your own logic to draw implications against the Orthodox, the same implications can be brought towards you against the entirety of the world. Every society, philanthropic enterprise, creed, faith etc that has not known Christ or preached a different Christ is devoid of the grace of God and doomed to perdition without hope according to your own logic. Yet, Protestants don't do that. They affirm "Christ is the way," and for some reason don't apply their own harrowing implications they do to the Orthodox. Protestants simultaneously affirm the absoluteness with which it is said, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit," and they also refrain from judging the entirety of the world who has not done so. Do you make Christ a liar? No! But you affirm the indispensability and absoluteness of His word. Protestants simultaneously affirm the absoluteness with which our Lord says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood, you have no life in you," yet they also refrain from judging those who have not eaten His Flesh and drunk His Blood. Preaching the absoluteness of this teaching while leaving the outside to God's judgement does in no way make Christ a liar. The indispensability and absoluteness of His word is still the preserved. The Orthodox believe the Church is where we know His sacraments are efficacious and the Holy Spirit dwells. We say that, and yet it is not some tacit statement saying He is limited, bounded, or incapable of acting on anyone as He wills. That fact doesn’t negate the boundaries of the Ark of Salvation. The Lord’s grace being given as He wills does not blow up the true, historic, and continuous necessity of sacraments. Any more than the Lord’s ability to act unbounded doesn’t blow up the true, historic, and continuous ecclesiology. Again, the emotional thread he consistently pulls on is not based on a disposition alien to Protestantism. Protestants do the same exact thing. The scandal Gavin is trying to propagate is merely in the location of the boundaries. Should a Mormon preacher come to preach Christ at his congregation and steal some congregants, I'm sure his own worries for their salvation would ensue. Talks of the Mormon's false prophethood, false gospel, and heresies that would lead to perdition would also come into play. AT THE SAME TIME, he would not say that every Mormon is in a graceless darkness guaranteed to end up in Gehenna. To conclude, there really is an absolute truth. There truly exists a deposit of faith that is not up to us to piece together, but up to us to adhere to as it was delivered once and for all. This deposit truly is to exist in perpetuity. Perpetuated not by diffuse, incomplete partitions, but subsisting in its fullness from beginning to end. To that end, this deposit was promised a custodian. A custodian deemed a Body and the pillar and ground of truth.
Dr. Ortlund, I really wish you would do more dialoguing with qualified Orthodox representatives and get their viewpoints of this source material. I think you would come to fairer, more nuanced conclusions and it would be beneficial to all.
As nice as you sound, the "considering the implications" portion of this video resounds of an ultimatum fallacy with the sentimental cry of "damnation and damning all one knows," if he is to accept one and reject the other. To even reason that the one who would accept EO would stand before God and be quizzed on doctrine as opposed to being judged on the state of his heart is precisely why people are deeply reconsidering their Calvinistic inheritance.
I think anyone who is interested in the EO, and particularly coming from a Protestant background should understand before getting involved with that tradition should realize that, past and even in many places still in the present, they have affirmed that all those outside their church are damned. The importance of this cannot be overstated.
THis has been the belief of Christianity for 2000 years. Although today, you'll find very few Orthodox believe that now. Who is saved, is only known by God... although, there can only be one Truth... not numerous truths.
@@ArchangelIcon That's my point exactly - and Gavin's closing argument. Either the EO church is unchanging in which case billions of people who call themselves Christian today are not saved, and are part of traditions that have never been saved, or you have to admit that the EO do change and that their claims to being the unchanged faith of the apostles is invalidated. Truth exists indeed, but the EO practice here is badly out of alignment with that truth.
This is more dogmatic in Roman Catholicism. If you go to practically any EO church, they will tell you Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith, while also understanding Gods infinite mercy extends not only to orthodox Christian’s who have fallen short of His holiness, but to everyone outside the church.
@@ArchangelIconit’s been the belief in that all those who trust in Christ are in the church. It’s not in reference to the ROMAN Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox Church. You guys using this phrase now in the way you’re using it is anachronistic.
@@jonmack2437 I agree - the RC church has also had this view for most of its history and its as much a problem for them as for the EO. I think what you mean is that if you go to most American EO churches they will tell you that - I am not aware that this is the case in other countries, and it certainly wasn't the case in the past. So it creates a dillema of either saying that the EO church is the historic and unchanging faith, and that more than 2 billion people who call themselves Christians today are not saved, as has been the historic position, or you break with that claim and embrace the more modern position that the EO church has the fullness of the faith and that many others are saved as well, in which case you loose the ability to say that the EO is the unchanging faith of the apostles across all ages.
“You ask, will the heterodox be saved… Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins… I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.”
~ St. Theophan the Recluse
This shines a light on the attempt made in this video.
I thought this was Fr. Seraphim Rose
Barring the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, as a Catholic, St Theophan sounds pretty based
So I should never consider converting to a Orthodox as a Protestant if I'm not absolutely certain I will forever stay an Orthodox. In light of this quote, God might save me as a Protestant but will definitely damn me if I leave Orthodoxy. Good to know.
@@ryanhwang4143God is not mocked. Having heard the voice of truth but continuing in disobedience will make one’s own punishment more severe.
Great point regarding Mark 9!
Mark 9 verse 38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
I grew up with Russian Otrhodox tradition and customs and I can tell hands down that some Americans are very naive, because they are looking for a historic church, BUT the modern Eastern Orthodox Church IS NOT AS historic as Early church. I do appreciate rich tradition and all that is good there, however you have to guys consider following things: lots of superstitions, sectic thinking, political nationalistic imperialism perspectives, mix with worldly ideas (as long as you are baptized, probably infant with no consent of yours and come to church occasionally and confess your sins - that’s nice, but your life remains almost as of atheist or agnostic), wierd traditions (along with good you get the bad ones), not to mention this hierarchy of legalism and religious system.
Now some few years later after my conversion experience and transformation I came to re-consider some views and I stopped demonizing Eastern Orthodox church and saw the good part. Since nobody got it all right and we all need each other.
But the Gospel was preached to me and more clearly revealed through evangelical Protestant friends and then I met Jesus and really started reading Bible, praying and saw my life changed.
I do believe there are genuine Orthodox Christians and I encourage and cheer on everybody as long as they pursue Christ and His word and what He accomplished, not the religious system.
And I tell you for me mostly it was superstitions and some wierd ideas and not being taught of the word of God. For some people it might have been very harsh legalism and bondage - I came dry out of the water and God showed mercy on me in many ways.
I totally understand you if you are burnout on Pentecostal, charismatic or evangelical religious form, legalism or some cult, but it doesn’t mean you have to get yourself in another religious system. Dr. Outland has a good point, guys!!! We should be followers of Jesus and grow in the knowledge of God and we all are His church, One body, orthodox, eastern, Armenian, catholic, reformed, Protestant, non-denominational.
I love this! Well said!
@@ilmarmeldre2568 Amen!!!This is excellent.
Same argument as the atheist “I grew up Christian”
@@kingattila506but that’s the problem with our Christianity… I was an atheist or agnostic in the heart. Nobody cared. Believe the Gospel through Protestant friends. Beware!!!
I don’t batch on orthodox. But in my opinion and experience many people are just unbelievers wearing tradition clothes. It can be the same with many catholics and Protestants. That’s why Luther is right. We need to preach the Gospel of Grace every day, because we forget it every day… we need to remember it and awaken to it.
Be orthodox if you will, but many orthodox don’t even believe what Early Church fathers actually taught about salvation through Christ and His atonement alone… and the West also in problems. We need a Reformation! Wake up and come back to the truth that is in Jesus!
Jesus vs the Church is a false dichotomy. The Church is Christ’s Body. He speaks through the Church and saves through the Church. The Church is the visible prolongation of the Incarnation. Salvation is from Christ through His Church, including the Church’s Mysteries. This isn’t that hard to understand.
Thank you for all the hard work, Dr. Ortlund. This was quite timely. EO seems to be drawing a lot of young people at the moment and I think there isn't enough Protestant engagement with it. Keep up the amazing work!
Well besides orthodoxy not being well known yet in the west, its growing,
EO is more predominant in europe, yet EO is drawing ppl to it because of the traditional aspect but evem more so than that is the fullness of the truth which speaks to the soul/heart. Few protestants are informed/equipped to engage EO, while EO is prepared for protestants, RC, etc
This teases the depth & caution that EO contains.
There’s been a lot of Protestant engagement against Holy Orthodoxy. The Protestant position is simply untenable. It’s that simple.
I find that appreciating Eastern Orthodoxy in person is far more apparent than Eastern Orthodoxy online. It is represented very poorly online, often by quite loud, rude, and obnoxious catechumins and fresh converts... which only serves to diminish the claims that are made. In person, away from the often loud, rude, and obnoxious personalities found online, Eastern Orthodoxy shines. All this coming from someone who is completely comfortable not being Eastern Orthodox, strengths and weaknesses may be more objectively observed and respected.
As a non EO, I can respect this comment. 🙏
I totally agree. I've been Orthodox for over 30 years (convert from RC), and the current trend for recent converts 'teaching' on their UA-cam channels, with little humility, is somewhat shocking. It bears no resemblance to parish worship and parish life and Orthodox ethos.
I'm EO, and the majority of people online who I've interacted with that are representing EO, and even telling other people to convert to EO, aren't even EO themselves! It's crazy.
I've found TLM communities and the Latin mass quite similar. Much better in person, horrible online. Though I do think online EO might do better than online "trads".
Here in England, I simply don’t know anybody in the Orthodox Church. I form my view of Orthodoxy from what I see online and in the news. In theory, the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox Churches need to get back together and send a joint mission to England to persuade the English to admit that John Fisher and Thomas More were fake saints.
Hi Gavin, I am an Orthodox Christian, and a convert from Protestantism. I want to add a bit of context here to what St. Theophan is writing by including a quote from another letter, which I think may be relevant:
"You ask, will the heterodox be saved. Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." --- St. Theophan the Recluse
I think St. Theophan's problem is more with Orthodox christians leaving the Orthodox Church than anything else.
That is such a good point about Theophan's text being for Orthodox Christians, and not for others. Those who do not Orthodoxy cannot be judged for turning from something they don't know. And Orthodoxy doesn't judge them for it.
The quoted text actually sounds a lot worse. St. Theophan refers to Orthodoxy as the "Truth" and what Protestants believe as a "different faith" and a diversion from Orthodox orthodoxy as a betrayal. Pretty stark language. He even says "They have a Savior" which could be interpreted as Protestants have a different theology or that Protestants have a Savior that is not the Orthodox Savior.
@@Cletus_the_Elderwell they do have a different theology and do to differences in Christology I think you could argue to some extent they do have a different savior. Just as most Christians would admit the Christ of the JWs or Mormons is different than that of the rest of Christianity.
@@Cletus_the_Elder So you think St Theophan believes this other being actually exists and will take take care of them, then? This is absurd.
And yes, Orthodoxy is the truth and heterodoxy is a deviation from the truth...obviously.
@@outsideanarchism5650 they can’t have a different savior, because only one Savior exists.
You noted: "It does seem weird to assume that just because someone is within the church they don't need to have the gospel preached to them people in the church all the time routinely need the gospel to be preached to them afresh."
I would agree, but my understanding of the EO perspective is that their lifelong, diligent application of and devotion to the mystical rituals, sacraments, icons, etc. IS their sustaining "preaching" of the Gospel afresh, as it can only be found in the Church's sacred acts, and experienced as the beginnings of theosis. They do not particularly think of the Gospel as Protestants do, apart from its one time saving event in baptism, thereafter the Gospel is worked out in the process ultimately leading to theosis.
Correct it seems weird or uncomfortable because the way the churchs theology & mindset flows.
Preaching the gospel cannot be done by not preaching. Nothing else is preaching the gospel. It can be nice, it can be all sorts of things but it cannot be preaching the gospel if it isn't preaching.
@@katskillz The point in your paragraph 2 goes well with my observation. If it is not necessary to remind people of the gospel that saves, then that Church becomes a "folk religion". Case in point, your great, great, great grandfather found Christ and converted to Him, he raised his children, grand children strictly in Church, they also raises theirs in the Church and all are members by "birth". That is what I mean by folk religion. Yous see, God has no grandchildren thus the necessity of presenting the gospel on every opportunity. There is no other tradition that understand this as Protestants. Every person must be born of God individually through the preaching of the Gospel. Orthodox Church does not evangelise. The story which Gavin is narrating in not to be tossed out of the window, it is a reality.
@@Nolongeraslave I agree, I just wanted to (hopefully) accurately present the EO's own position to the best my understanding.
I believe it to be wrong, and the main reason it is wrong is because the EO theology mistakenly takes a specific doctrine of theosis / deification and makes it the central dogma around which ALL other doctrines and practices must flow from or fortify their belief in. This is not how the early Church fathers understood things. Nevertheless, they are blind to the courtroom framing of justification and condemnation in Pauline soteriology. They are blind to the comprehensive pervasiveness of original sin requiring a substitutionary atonement where Adam and his spiritual family stand in a position of demerit needing satisfaction for sin a state of being, by means of a substitute. And they are adamently blind to the distinction between the Content of Gospel and the Consequences of the Gospel. Thus for them ecclesiology basically is soteriology. If one, in their system, is diligently tending to the collective dynamics of the Church's praxis, then one is saved individually, period.
This is such an untapped area. So glad to see you covering it.
My parents got married in the Greek Orthodox church (I'm Greek on my Dad's side), and I grew up with a lot of random info about the religion and the church. (Plus, our yearly visits to the Greek Fest they held cuz... Baklava.) But I never saw it seriously examined until recently since many people seem to be converting to it.
Hello!!!
Wow interesting ! Im a former protestant who converted to orthodoxy. Hope you begin to rexamine thoroughly! Just as there are bad parishs/churches or cultural/lukewarm christians all over doesnt negate the said group/churchs truth & teachings. Godspeed melissa!
Are we protestants, the jw's of eastern orthodoxy. Just some offshoot cult of the EO ?
Greek churches (in America at least) are very eeehhh and lukewarm. I’m not saying all Greek Orthodox folks are like this, because there are obviously pious and genuine people and parishes in Greek Orthodoxy, but here in the States, Greek Orthodoxy has a reputation of being basically a “cultural club.” Many Greek Orthodox folks go to church solely to mingle with other Greek people, and anyone visiting the church from outside of that group is considered weird. Very sad, to be honest.
But there is a growing contingency of faithful Americans finding Orthodoxy. Melissa, I don’t know that you have encountered this. It would be super interesting if you were to visit an Orthodox Church (OCA, ROCOR, Antiochian, or Serbian) and make a video about your experience. Would love to see it.
@@MelissaDoughertyThe Greek Orthodox is the most mystical of the E. O. Churches. The belief in the importance of Grace which probably under a different name, is understood by the Jewish community as well makes the E.O. important path to spiritual ascension. The RC Church view that Grace as defined as something we may get which we don't deserve is too vague to be helpful; something saint do but no one else will accomplish. This idea is incorrect.
All I can say is I look forward to meeting this Protestant preacher in heaven,
Thank you, your book is great !
Argument summarized: Don't become Orthodox because that would be really mean. . .
This is what I am getting 25 minutes in
@@Josedrivadeneira I finished it and that's exactly what he's saying. But if he really believed in Sola Scriptura he would know the Bible says the way is narrow and that not all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Goodness, this was excellent. The sober, austere, ceremonial nature of the Eastern Orthodox tradition must slake the thirst of many Protestants, whose Protestant leaders are in disagreement with church "fathers," leaders, and saints pre-Reformation and even post-Reformation, whose liturgy changes with the mood of the time, whose history seems relatively shallow, whose clergy seem to pursue the activities of the secular world. One of the many things I love about this channel is that it allows Protestants to tap into history and claim the history of the faith in-between the New Testament and Martin Luther as ours, too.
You can claim it all you want but it’s dishonest. For every church father you can claim as “your own” I show you how thoroughly Catholic they really are.
Fact is they were apart of the catholic church friend & you cant claim them but you can cite them all you want in vain. But while there are faithful protestants due to their faith, does not make their church true. It is because of Gods mercy that they can see paradise...
@@CurtosiusMaximus828 that was to the op's comment, im in agreement, reread brother.
@@triplea6174 my apologies brother. 💪🏻
Years ago I looked into Orthodoxy and attended the OC for over a year. I even helped my cousin to convert but never was able to bring myself to join. Because Protestantism has a “plainness” to it, many are overwhelmed by the beauty and history of Orthodoxy. The biggest unsettlement for me was that members (especially converts) were always praising and extolling the beauties and virtues of the church, but you would never hear them exhibiting the same language and excitement about Christ our Savior. After some years when the novelty wears off, one is left with a church very similar to all other churches - with problems, inconsistencies, and even scandals. Praise God he is condescending to save us despite our churches! 😸 thank you for making this video!
Issues with other parishioners isn’t a good argument against the Church itself and its teachings.
I agree. It's the same with converts to the Roman Church. They continually exalt the church but hardly speak of Christ.
@@julesgomes2922 The Church IS the body of Christ... 1 Corinthians 12:12-27. Of course you wouldn't realize that as a Protestant especially the part where Paul says "so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other." This is the problem with the sole focus on a personal relationship with Jesus. It isn't just a personal relationship with Jesus, it is a loving relationship with your neighbor, your enemies, your family.
“you would never hear them exhibiting the same language and excitement about Christ our Savior.”
I find this a bit hard to believe. The icon of Christ is always the largest icon in the church. And there are usually multiple icons of Christ displayed throughout.
Orthodox prayer life centers around the Jesus Prayer. Most of the liturgy is prayers to the holy trinity. And have you ever skimmed through an orthodox prayer book? It’s littered with prayers and hymns about Christ.
Sure we give attention to the holy saints, but nothing in comparison to Christ.
@@jamesbishop3091 it’s also worth noting on top of this great statement that we don’t attribute any “special powers” to the Saints, rather it is through them crucifying their passions that allowed Christ to use them as vessels and work great miracles through them, who are beacons of His light. It is Christ working through all of the saints, thus by venerating saints we are actually by in large venerating Christ
I would greatly appreciate if this was a topic of discussion between Dr. Ortlund and Fr. Stephen De Young
Agreed
I think he's already have a conversation with him, just not in depth
Yeah, their last discussion was just getting to the important distinctions (that I think Gavin mostly misses or glosses over in his critiques) at the end. I wish he'd dialogue about these concerns more instead of just copy/pasting quotes and professing that his interpretation of them are representative of what the church teaches
Watching it now, and you're right on. It's downright disturbing to see how many people are willing to say "yeah and it's BaSeD to say my fathers, mothers, mentors, and friends who all showed the fruits of the Spirit worship a FaKe Jesus and are gonna go to hell #imsoedgy". Like....the sheer callousness there. My word.
@@anglicanaesthetics Have you actually seen anyone say that or is this a calumnious extrapolation of what you think we're saying?
100%. It’s shocked me for a long time how many people might love their family heritage and living family and then actively move to EO alone, not realizing they are joining a confession that says that person’s ancestors and immediate family who are Christian are actually empty vessels. They either have no idea or think it’s not a required belief, negating the whole appeal of the “unchanged” church.
@TheologyVisualized The same argument, literally the same argument, was used by pagans multiple times early in Church history, to stop people from converting to Christ, that by doing so, they were saying that all of their ancestors were in Hell. Should they have remained pagan, rather than accept the exclusivity claimed by Christ?
Note : it's not an adequate response to say that their ancestors were pagans, while here we're talking about fellow Christians. The logic of the argument and its emotional appeal work equally well in either case.
What's important is what the Scriptures teach, what is true, and what is pleasing to God.
In either case, this is a caricature of what we actually believe.
@@AmericanwrCymraeg Thank you! I am reminded of the saying I have heard several times: "We know where the Holy Spirit is, we don't know where he is not". I have not heard any Orthodox Priest say that everyone outside of Orthodoxy is damned. That would be like putting God in a box and knowing exactly what he should be doing, which is exactly what Orthodoxy does not do. (Protestant inquirer in Wales)
This is so schitzo
I think a core point being made here is that if you are attracted to Eastern Orthodox adherence (perhaps by aesthetic considerations) make sure you are willing to swallow the whole (and that the whole is not just beautiful, but true). The benefit of exegeting this letter from St. Theothan is that it presents the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy in rather blunt and plain terms, rather than vague appeals to the mystery and ancient wisdom of the church.
well said
@@gracenotes5379 I've been a priest for a long time and have baptized many converts. I always talk to inquirers about their motivations and what's leading them to consider Orthodoxy. I'd be hard pressed to think of a single person who was coming for aesthetical reasons, yet I consistently here Protestants dismissively deriding new Orthodox Christians as only caring about aesthetics, rather than doctrine.
It's a caricature and not a particularly helpful one.
Obviously, enjoying or appreciating beauty is not the same thing as being motivated to convert for those reasons.
@@AmericanwrCymraeg What's the reason they convert??
@@raphaelfeneje486 Generally history, doctrine, stability, things like that.
@@raphaelfeneje486 Study the Reformation and early christian writings and you'll see why.
Thanks, this is helpful for a Protestant peeking into Orthodoxy.
If you are peaking into Orthodoxy, the best route to take is to simply attend an Orthodox liturgy and experience, and discuss your questions with the priest over coffee hour. Orthodoxy is primarily experiential.
@@ArchangelIcon sounds like a sales pitch from a cult. "I can't explain it, you just have to come get brainwashed in person by drinking holy water and kiss these pictures of saints for no reason whatsoever"
@@ArchangelIcon LOL
@@nemochuggles I've been to a liturgy. If you're holding fast to Scripture, and to Christ, it won't move you to faith in Orthodoxy. I saw the blasphemy of a man bowing to a piece of art, and was offended.
@@mariomene2051 Maybe you should check out what the bowing to the piece of art represents, from the Orthodox perspective.
Im Protestant but seems like we are telling EO what they believe and they say no we don’t believe that, and we just say no you have to believe that because of this guy said this. We should let them speak for themselves. This letter was in context of an EO leaving the church of course his letter is going to be firm and direct. This same guy also has been quoted elsewhere that it is possible for others to be saved. It’s a mystery.
Theophan the Recluse. “You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins”. I don’t think EO converts have to say now all westerners are all 100% lost, it’s just not the case. This doesn’t seem fair to them.
I agree
Exactly right!
Nicely put
Exemplary humility & intellectual honesty. Thank you X
His question “why do you worry about them?” Is telling. Christians care for the unbeliever and WANT others to believe and evangelize. To have this flippant attitude towards the unbeliever betrays his claim of being in Christ.
When I left my baptist upbringing and started exploring all the denominations, I couldn’t settle on Orthodoxy for the sole reason that they’re by far the snootiest about being the one true church… even Catholics aren’t as snooty. Fundy, independent, landmarkist baptists come close.
"this group is snooty so i will seperate myself from Christ as they claim without actually verifying their claims, i had a bad experience one time so i reject God"
@@user-vv1do1wg1j *case in point of Orthodox being snooty and conflating being a member of the Orthodox Church with being saved.
Have Adam Harwood's Christian Theology, book of the year -22. Blessings from Finland !
Paul seems pretty clear that Christ has only one Bride. Was he "snooty," too?
Plus the original church was in people's homes, not fancy churches with all sorts of pomp and men in dark robes with arrogance chanting vain repetitions.
Thanks for your works, Dr Gavin. God bless you immensely. It's refreshing. You've been a blessing to the body of Christ 🙏❤️✝️
Thoughtful and thorough, as usual. I considered Orthodoxy, but found them obsessive about nonessentials, like how to hold your fingers when crossing yourself, and the exact wording of the Jesus Prayer.
They certainly cannot say with Paul, "I was determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified."
Thank you so much for this video, Dr Ortlund!
It is so fascinating to now see you read the writings of the easter-orthodox church fathers, after me having the personal experience, talking with my parents, talking with eastern-orthodox priests in Ukraine and seeing my experience confirmed by the writings of their church fathers.
Thank you for shedding light on this topic!
Another great video, Dr. Ortlund! The Lord is using you mightily in this entire debate and discussion. I pray many will find the assurance of salvation through your ministry.
I’m not EO, but the argument does make me think of non-Christians using the implications of hell for “good” non-believers as a reason not to become Christian. I think this follows the same logic.
To deny the fruits of Western Christianity is a good argument, however. I also like the point about exorcism and those not against us are for us. That is a different train of thought that has so far kept me Protestant.
Love your stuff, Gavin!!
As a lifelong Baptist (non-Calvinist, 😊) I was ignorant of EO teachings for most of my life, until I gained a Russian friend some years ago. So grateful for discovering your content in light of that relationship. It's been a great help! God bless!
Oh, I've also found the lack of evangelizing by the EO church to be a bit disturbing. Say what you will about the Catholics and Protestants, they have evangelized like crazy!
What's funny is that the Protestants indirectly forced the Roman Catholics to evangelize. LOL
@@raphaelfeneje486 forced? The reason so much of Africa, Asia and South America is Christian is because of the Catholics. 😂
But no one beats the Mormons (per capita)
Orthodox Christianity is only for heavenly warriors with the faith of a soldier compared to the rest denominations no civilian amateur faith is allowed, the Ethiopian Orthodox church is for the faith equivalent of a Colonel in military experience and Flat Earthers Christians of the Ephraim awakening faith is the equivalent of a General in military experience. This is why in the True church believers are standing like a platoon of soldiers waiting orders from Jesus, meanwhile catholic heretics and the weakly faith denominations they don't respect Jesus they need to seat.
@@CastanOpiu It must be cool convincing yourself, especially when you're In falsehood. LOL. Really cool.
Excellent video Dr. O.
I have a couple of family members who left the non-denominational protestant church we all once attended together, citing legitimate complaints about fundamentalism issues in our former church, and legitimate appreciation for the beauty of the Orthodox liturgy. Thankfully we are still close and I expressed to them a desire to not brand one another as heretics as we agree to disagree.
Thanks again. You're my favorite "sellout" 😉
Heretics cause division. Unless someone is in a teaching position, heretic is the wrong word. The right word is apostate.
You have said what I have been trying to say to my eastern brothers for a long time in a nutshell. The taking for granted of the west and the people (Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Evangelical, etc.) it has brought forth and the beauty they have preached and lives they have lived for Christ. I am Roman Catholic but most of my readings, meditations, and inspirations come from people like Jonathan Edward’s, George Muller, Wurmbrand, NT Wright, and YOU!
That’s so encouraging to know, brother.
Eek. Not safe bro. You might as well read Arius
As a protestant, I'm truly glad to have you as my brother in Christ. ❤
If this bishop spoke for the whole Orthodox Church, sadly they can’t say the same. Amen brother, likewise!
With regards to Mark 9, the clear counterpoint is both Luke 11 and Acts 19:11-17. When people tried to cast out demons without authority, the demons responded by beating them up.
What is the difference between Mark 9 and Luke 11? And between Mark 9 and Acts? The specifics both of what's said and what the context is matter enormously. Obviously, the sacred Scriptures don't contradict each other.
Likewise, St Theophan both speaks positively about the possibility of the salvation of the non Orthodox *and* writes this way to an Orthodox person tempted to leave the Church.
And there is no conflict between the two views. St Theophan isn't contradicting himself anymore than Christ is in Mark and Luke.
A good Biblical exegesis should take into account the entirety of the Scriptures on a particular subject, not isolated verses. The same is true in understanding the thinking of a particular writer, like St Theophan.
This is similar to when people claim that St Gregory of Nyssa was a universalist by pulling out isolated passages from his writings, while ignoring all the others where he speaks of eternal hell and eternal punishment. As has been noted, St Gregory sounds hopefully universalist where the Scriptures do and speaks of eternal hell where the Scriptures do.
"When people tried to cast out demons without authority, the demons responded by beating them up."
Do Protestants and Catholics have the authority to cast out demons?
Have Protestants and Catholics performed real exorcisms that worked?
@@Galmala94 Whether Christ has chosen at times to cast out demons through them and whether they had the authority to do that are separate questions. What God establishes as normative doesn't bind His freedom to work. Both Mark and Luke are true on this.
Also, I'm not saying this applies to Protestants, but Christ makes this distinction clear in Matthew, that people can cast out demons through Him without being with Him. Matthew 7:21-23.
Dr God bless you ❤❤❤
I'm from Ethiopia
very cool! I will be doing two videos in the next few weeks on the Ethiopian Orthodox church. They will be largely positive about historic events between Protestants and Ethiopian Christians. God bless.
@@TruthUnites Dr do it carefully. because there's Many false teaching in Ethiopia Orthodox Tedowido church like Ark of Moses, saints meditation, praying and worshipping to Mary, false and edited 85 books , fiction like Enoch books.
Dr in 2008 G. C or 2000 E.C
Ethiopia Orthodox Tedowido church has changed 3540 of bible verses for their doctrine.
I and my family Was in that church.
Truth is not what you are hearing on UA-cam.
Reply me if you see my comment
The Ethiopian Orthodox church denies the intercession of Christ and sometimes even call it heresy , maybe you could touch on that a bit as well.@@TruthUnites
@@AbebaDamesa-wc7ls yes, one video will be on the reform effort of Estifanos in the 15th century; the other will be on the dialogue with Michael the Deacon and Martin Luther in 1534. I hope they will be helpful; let me know what you think if you watch!
Orthodox Christianity is only for heavenly warriors with the faith of a soldier compared to the rest denominations no civilian amateur faith is allowed, the Ethiopian Orthodox church is for the faith equivalent of a Colonel in military experience and Flat Earthers Christians of the Ephraim awakening faith is the equivalent of a General in military experience. This is why in the True church believers are standing like a platoon of soldiers waiting orders from Jesus, meanwhile catholic heretics and the weakly faith denominations they don't respect Jesus they need to seat.
Great video as always. After being discouraged from RC with the issues surrounding the Papacy, I am turning to evaluating EO and will use this topic as a main point of contention.
Check out Lutheranism. Reformed Romanism.
Study many books, but live in scripture. You'll see the EO doesn't square with scripture fully. I've had to lay it aside.
@@FaithinChristCrucified But Protestantism does? Lmao. Protestantism is a false man-made trash heap.
If you want truth and valid sacraments, you will become RC or EO. There is no other option.
@@willw1753 Those two are mutually exclusive.
Love your content and I can't wait to watch your video. I have a close godly friend who is EO and very enthusiastic about it being the "Church". Makes it a little difficult to speak to him about our differences but I appreciate EO.
Excited for this one
I was Protestant for 25 years. I became Orthodox after 5 years of inquiring and attending divine Liturgy for a year and I haven't looked back.
There is nothing as fulfilling as the Orthodox faith.
There is nothing like Divine Liturgy.
I honestly don't see how anyone could convert to Eastern Orthodox if they love God and obey His word...Its so full of clear idolatry and has almost no respect for the Bible. I even called into Jay Dyer's program one day and challenged him on icon veneration and he said "Its clearly taught in Galatians 3:1 Karen", and then kicked me off the stream. It was clear he couldn't defend it. And icon veneration is just one issue among many.
As someone else commented, this shows the inconsistency in the criticism of us. You, Gavin, and others regard iconography as idolatry and the Scriptures teach that idolaters do not inherit the Kingdom of God. So if you think we're idolaters, how can you say you view us as fellow Christians?
FWIW, Jay Dyer holds no official position in the Orthodox Church.
Thank you for the thoughtful and well-articulated video.
Something I’ve noticed with these videos (specifically when they’re addressing anything concerning the Eastern Orthodox Church) is that the vast majority of the comments contain absolutely no responses to the actual claims made in the video (which Gavin always does a great job carefully articulating), but rather sink to insults, ad-hominems, question-begging assertions, and what-aboutisms. I’d love to see some actual engagement from EO’s that doesn’t resort to one of those types of responses.
There are undoubtedly some of these uncomfortable truths that we just cannot ignore in good conscience and intellectual honesty.
Great video, as always!
I love that we can just affirm that Tradition and the Magisterium have erred and stick to the divine revelation of Scripture!
the thing is, orthodox believe they put together the Bible for everyone else and that we dont even use the right Bible. They have a ton of books not accepted in most canons and they claim to be the only right ones. its ridiculous
@@easytiger35 Why is it ridiculous? Why do trust a single troubled monk like Luther to remove 7 books from the bible? The Septuagint is referenced over 300 times in the NT. Jesus and his disciples most definitely studied the Septuagint as scripture yet Luther and you take your Canon from what the Jews who denied Jesus decided hundreds of years after Christ.
By what measuring stick can you say that tradition had erred? It’s not inconsistent with scripture. If on the other hand you object that it’s not CLEAR in scripture (e.g. icon veneration), then the problem is scripture itself literally says there are vehicles outside of itself for revealing truth (e.g. the spiritual gift of prophecy, look up prophetic tradition in the early church).
@@stratmatt22 I dont know of anyone who believes in "whatever Luther did is right". He was one of the people calling out how far off base the church of the time was....with their liturgies and rituals and the "church fathers" having final interpretation of scripture without discussion or nuance. Orthodox almost always straw man's the arguments against them. Many, many Christian theologians can explain why exactly we all use the same books in canons, except some like orthodox and catholic have some extras in there to support their claim of supremacy. By believing orthodox is THE only church, you have essentially completely missed what "the church" even is, yet always so confidently incorrect.
Most evangelicals transfer their fundamentalism to Eastern Orthodoxy missing the vast spirituality and theology in the East that lacks said fundamentalism. Many non western Orthodox are alarmed by this.
Yes, eastern Orthodoxy is much bigger than any 'systematic theology'. They would not prescribe God what He should or should not be doing. All they are saying is that Orthodoxy is the Fulness of Truth. (Protestant inquirer here)
@@janen668 "Protestant enquirer here." Didn't you just called Protestants Herectic?? Funny! It's obvious you don't know what Protestanism entails for you to call it Herectical
@@raphaelfeneje486 As a (still protestant) inquirer I am in the process of deciding that the EO church is the true church, and that I want to be a catechumen soon, and fully Orthodox after that.
@@janen668 "I am in the process of deciding....." You've already decided. You called all protestants Herectic. You're a Herectic pending when you go into the eastern orthodox church. Jesus would really be smiling at you condemning fellow Christians who's fruit of the spirit are visible and they have a walk with God. After all, Jesus told you the one true church is the EO and you aren't saved by believing in him, but by joining an institution
@@raphaelfeneje486 If Christ's Church is an institution, then so be it. It was instituted by Christ, so I guess it is.
Praying God continues to bless your ministry
Orthodox people who deny that we believe there is no salvation outside of the Church need to hear this and be rebuked so thank you Gavin for accurately displaying through Theophan what we believe. I knew this teaching leaving Protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy almost a year ago and this teaching Gavin is elaborating on is actually one of the big reasons I knew it was the truth. This idea that all people who claim to be Christians must be saved is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Mark 9 does not justify being a heretic and teaching a false gospel. Jesus said Not everyone who calls him Lord will be saved...this is the exact problem Gavin has with Eastern Orthodoxy which teaches exactly what Christ taught! There is only one church because there is only one visible distinguishable covenant body and bride of the Lord. I say this as lovingly as I can but Gavin doesnt understand our obsession with church because he doesnt understand theosis...the concept of the church of God being literally conjoined to Christ. We become one with Him in the church. We receive His actual flesh and become His literal body. (Eph 4:30) To be one with the church is to be one with Jesus who deifies it. Thats what is missing in Protestantism. There is no true church or deification through the sacraments and priesthood EXACTLY as Theophan says and its not just him. Read Athanasius, Cyprian, Ambrose of Milan, Irenaeus, Ignatius (disciple of the apostle John), and especially Augustine of Hippo who Protestants claim to love and agree with. They all speak with one voice! "He can not have God for His father who does not have the church for his mother!" -Augustine
Fun quote I found while making an attempt to understand eastern orthodoxy - "And there are the words of the Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad a very conservative theologian:
9
"It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non- Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics-i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way
Exactly. And if you read other things he wrote, he'll sound a lot like the picture Dr Ortlund is painting in this video. And yet, both things come from the same man and he wasn't incoherent in his theology. Both are true.
The Scriptures speak in exactly the same sort of way, but the apparent contradiction only exists on the surface.
sole bishops are not infallible and you are quote mining this man to defend your demonic ecumenism.
and it is historically normal use of the word heretic to call those outside the church heretics, mormons are heretics, hold herretical beliefs, dont need to be synodally condemned
Before you become Eastern Orthodox, look at the Russian Orthodox Church and never think about that again.
Reject Christ because you disagree with some bishops in Russia
This is a good video idea. A lot of people jump in because there's a lot of good apologetics from Christianity that have been painted as uniquely Eastern Orthodox (the TAG argument for example) when there's nothing uniquely EO about them at all.
To anyone looking into EO, just remember to approach topics with intellectual honesty. I recommend the channel "dwong", who is a Roman Catholic (I am not), for a refutation of the EO position's on the Filioque, and the Essence-Energy distinction. If you're convinced that EO is wrong on those topics you can't convert if you're an intellectually honest person.
I've listened to his videos on that too and though I also am not part of the RCC I found them useful
Yes but the EO promotes going "beyond" the intellect. Which can lock a person in: in false mysticism ...Christian Buddhism! Was my experience...
Orthodox view Protestants similar to how Protestants view Mormons?
You know Mormons aren't Trinitarians : your compassion is incoherent.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Do Orthodox view Protestants as having flawed trinitarian theology?
@@pigetstuck Yes, because they followed the Roman Catholics with their addition to the Nicean creed.
@@janen668 if the Catholics went back to the original creed, would they then be part of the true church again?
@@pigetstuck Not unless they renounce other doctrines they added, like purgatory, infallible papacy etc.
Excellent work
Here to push back against the swamping
Swamping?
😂
I'm here for the pingponging.
Yet it gets old. The pingpongers are young and/or professionals on a pay roll. But what a great ministry Ortlund has at present! So good!@@morghe321
All churches had this mindset until just recently, and the orthodox attitude is changing on this as well. No church is perfect, and i think there is some good to be taken from all traditions, but doctrinally the orthodox has the most to offer.
I dont believe any church can save me, only Jesus can save me 😅😅😅😅
Isn't the Church Christ's Body? So, doesn't it have some role in your salvation? Or, did you find Jesus all by yourself?
Dr. Ortlund does it again. Brings the clarity and hopefully get the young, westless and religious to think twice before having to pack TWICE, and back to Sola Scriptura (where we ALL should be).
Dr. O takes another L and sola-scriptura is the fruit of division. "my interpretation is right and yours is wrong". Tell me what it is that you or your pastor Bob has that Christ himself lacked?
I talked to a guy who had converted to EO and shared his witness to me. I was interested and asked him if he could clarify some positions for me such as their view of Ancestral sin. He said “I do not know, I just follow EO for their Saints” it dawned on me as I talk to more and more converts that these people converted for the aesthetic and culture, NOT the theology.
Might be your experience but generally not the case, the theology is what keeps people in.
Tho some do that it isnt wrong if theyre guided/taught by their fr/pastor. Some atm in their life may not be able to articulate it, doesnt negate what they experienced as invalid or wrong. For some are mini theologians/studious more than others & others are more visual. But trust me, you'll find both sides of the aisles in many churches along with community.
definitely what it seems like. They will quote scripture to back up a view, but then they claim that the Bible is not the Word of God and that really their church history and official interpretations are the final say in everything. They think we have to go to THEM to even get the right interpretation. The essentially refuse to give the power all to God and cling to holding their own power through their specific buildings, rituals, and idol worship. They are more into physical reality than invisible spirituality.
I know very many converts from protestantism to EO, and not one converted because of the saints. In fact, the saints are ofen a difficulty that many need to overcome because of their protestantism. Many convert because of the assurance of the faith of the early Church, and the fullness and reverence of the worship within tons of Scripture that it involves.
@@MichaelH__J yeah, plenty of people stick to bad theology in christianity as well as other religions. Doesnt mean youre on the right track.
In the process of exploring RC & EO , apart from all kinds of theological issues - At the end of the day my primary discomfort is this - ‘ The bride is not supposed to be in love
with . . . the bride -
The bride is supposed to be in love
with . .. . the GROOM ! ! 🤵♂️🤵♂️🤵♂️
As you are exploring, I'm sure that your attendance at Orthodox Divine Liturgies will very clearly clarify and affirm this for you. Christ himself is at the very heart and centre.
"Glory to Jesus Christ!" . . . oh, wait.
Listening to OrthoBros they definitely come off as "I am better than you".
“The mercies of God are not bound by the visible boundaries of the Church. God alone knows the heart, and He judges not as man judges. God’s ways are beyond our understanding, and His grace can act upon all who seek Him sincerely.”
“We do not have the right to judge the fate of those outside the Church. Rather, we trust in the boundless mercy of God, who desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. He will judge each according to his heart.”
“The Church is the vessel of salvation, and yet, we cannot say that grace is absent from those who sincerely seek God, even if they do not yet know the fullness of the truth. God prepares each soul in His own way.”
- SAINT THEOPHAN THE RECLUSE
we take someone’s theology, not three pages of it. Also, yeah, what he said is accurate, anglicans we’re going into well established Russian EO neighborhoods and calling people to the name of Christ, that’s fine, but also a slightly off interpretation. Of course people are going to reject that.
I love Gavin!!! He is the reason I have fallen in love with Theology and Protestantism.
Great video Pastor Gavin. Very informative. God bless.
Just the fact that I was saved and knew the Lord without EO, for me, demolishes their entire system--they say I can't be saved, and they can't err, so they've already erred, so they're not inerrant.
If they want to, now, concede I can be saved without them, what reason would i have for joining them?
Also, why does God answer prayers of people outside the EO?
@@micahcrider2108 I only meant for my own self in my own life.
There're many other arguments that could be made outside of what my own life shows me for myself (and what convinces me for my own life isn't substantive for anyone else).
You are already saved, and you know it as fact?! I know only one way to know this as fact - it is to die and get to heaven. So you are in Heaven I guess.
...Wow! I didn't know that there's Internet access in Heaven?! Say Hi to apostle Paul for me.
@@Aleksandr-Herman Ephesians 2 "saved" past-tense. I agree there is ongoing salvation and final salvation, but those facts don't negate the past tense salvation.
Solid comment! I thought the same thing
I’ve been told that Non-Orthodox Christian’s are not part of the body of Christ by an Orthodox Christian.
They aren’t, because the body of Christ cannot be split
@@erichenkel4393you guys are murdering each other on the Ukraine-Russian battlefield. Your priests are blessing weapons of war to help murder each other more. Get real with your man-made religion that has NOTHING to do with Jesus.
@@erichenkel4393the body of Christ is not found exclusively in an institution.
@@MusculusPulveriGrace can be outside of the church and works of the spirit depending on the person or whatever the case may be, but the body of Christ is the Eastern Orthodox Church, it is one body.
@@MusculusPulverithen why does Christ tell his apostles to make bishops teach them properly and make sure this continues saying they carry the grace of God if there isnt a historical institution?
if you deny this then you deny the early church, the source of everything protestantism comes from, you unroot yourself when you admit you deny Christ's promise.
I too was very very wary (and even contemptuous) of the claims of exclusivity of salvation by the Orthodox Church back when I was staunchly in the Reformed tradition.
The doctrine of the “invisible church” was comforting and, though I wouldn’t have put it this way back then, the idea of the “invisible church” does solve many of the questions that Protestantism inherently poses. So I held on pretty tightly to the doctrine of the “invisible church” and I was much grieved by the claims of exclusivity of the Orthodox Church.
But you do have to draw the line somewhere; all Christians (unless you’re in the universalist camp) are going to need to draw a line. When I was reformed and a believer in the “invisible church,” I knew that Mormons were not Christians because, to put it succinctly, they reject the Nicene Creed. Ok, so then that’s the line: The Creed. But why? And relevantly, did the writers of the Creed intend for the line about the “Catholic, Apostolic Church” to mean the “invisible church?” Seeing as this doctrine is undeniably rejected by the Nicene Church fathers, we have to conclude no. So then… the line becomes clearer: there is a Church, that isn’t invisible, that Christians are a part of. Then the question is, of course, what is that Church? Am I in it? How do I know?
These questions lead to a clear answer if you’re honest. The “invisible church” doctrine became the weak stopper that was holding the flood at bay. Because if Protestants don’t have the “invisible church” idea, everything comes tumbling down.
At the end, the one thing I hated so vehemently about the Orthodox Church became the very thing I could no longer deny and led me to the Church. The claims of exclusivity are harsh to those outside of it who revile the implications of what it would mean if they allow themselves to admit it is the truth.
The thing that Gavin seems so shocked about is something that the whole of Christianity believed for 1,000 years before the Schism, and continued to believe. Otherwise, people may as well believe whatever they want.
The response to the response to the response is already being prepared!😂 Great to see you doing this. So helpful. I too was pondering if EO were committing ecclesiolatry: equating the Bride to their institutions and even to Christ Himself with no wiggle room. All else is considered a dead branch by many Orthodox. And I know from within...! Great people, amazing liturgies but if you really get into scripture the difference is so remarkable. Its why they proof text rather than do expository preaching and study saints rather than the Bible typically. God bless them though, they have much to share if they can get beyond infallible canons that wall them into ecclesial exclusivism. I've changed and my allegiance is to Christ, not an institution, Bishop or priest. Scripture is setting me free of this salvation by church and priest approach, because its tone is so different to the NT message as a whole.
It’s not about institution at all it’s about the correct faith. The NT is super explicit that there is one faith and that those teaching something else aren’t part of the church. This is also the view of the entire early church, the medieval church east and west, and many Protestant reformers
Yes but the accretions brother....The accretions!@@esoterico7750
Saint Ignatius said we need to look to our bishop as God himself. He claimed these were not his own words but were a divine revelation from the Holy Spirit, and he died as a martyr to prove it. Then the church unanimously conformed to what he taught for thousands of years.
@@EricTheYoungerwell OK buddy. But if it takes you far from the Gospel and the Word of God it won't help you one bit. Money, corruption and power airbrushed the Gospel early doors and still does! Scripture: check everything by it. ❤
It’s so over for the ortho bros
I think in any organized community, there will be the systematisers, and the heart people. There are different systems, after contradictory, within which the heart that trusts, which is one, can live and thrive.
Although some Eastern Orthodox Priests will publicly say that outside the Eastern Orthodox Church, Christ can meet people in whatever way He wants, or that, if God chooses, there is grace/salvation outside the Eastern Orthodox Church, the struggle will be whether that is just a fragmented local position not reduced to official writing like a Church council. Moreover, since words do matter, it could result in frustration with the lack of consistency on what should be a very important spiritual matters.
Unfortunately, IMHO, there is no perfect Church Tradition when you only consider the weightier matters like the Canon, theology proper, & worship, so one must ultimately pick their poison and try to live in peace with whatever decision they make towards obeying Christ.
Thank you Dr Ortlund, and peace be with you. It is so hard to have these conversations with people who have a mistaken or weakened veiw of what their own tradition has and does teach, especially with the anathemas!
They choose to ignore the fine print. And at the parish level it's very beautiful!
"It is not for us to define the state of those who are outside the Orthodox Church. If God wishes to grant salvation to some who are Christians in the best way they know, but without ever knowing the Orthodox Church-that is up to Him, not us. But when He does this, it is outside the normal way that He established for salvation-which is in the Church, as a part of the Body of Christ." - Fr. Seraphim Rose
And therein lies the issue. Fr. Rose's own position is heterodox by historical Orthodoxy.
@@renrichardson6517Where there are 3 orthodox, there are 4 opinions
Rose died in the 1980s. As we have said over and over, we are speaking of the 9th-19th centuries, from which 20th century innovations depart.
Foolish. Christ saves all who repent and put their trust in Him. That’s the real church.
@@KnightFel Oneness Pentecostals have nothing to fear then.
Gavin you have been great for me. Your conversation with Craig Trulia convinced me that Icons have been part of Christian and Jewish worship from the start. Now you highlight that the Church is confident in what has been handed down from Christ through the apostles. Thank you and may God bless you.
Thats great to hear! Are you an inquierer or Orthodox?
what data convinced you that the mandated veneration of icons was a practice from the beginning?
@triplea6174 Convert. They're all converts. All Orthobros are. They rarely have any connection to the Orthodox countries either.
@@morghe321 exactly. They become orthodox for 5 seconds, listen to some egotistical online debaters and boom they have full authority over any and all claims to faith outside of their own.
@easytiger35 right! I'm happy to hear that you see it like I do.
Well done, Dr Gavin. In my experience, such clarity about the real and full expectations as to what constitutes salvation is not done during catechesis in the EO Church. One finds out by way of videos such as you produce, which point us back to the simplicity of Christ, as well as dogged scripture study and prayer. The thing that was decisive for me in pulling out of the OC was a homily in which it was clearly said that to be Orthodox meant an unconditional embrace of the 7 Councils. By that time I was had explored the politics of Empress Irene and her influence on Nicea 2. Couldn’t live with that or the excessive attributions of the Marian prayers. You have well defined here how they view what it means to be saved by the OC. Thank you. This is a serious matter. Keep up the strong work, and God bless and protect you.
. . . and, what do you think of Emperor Constantine's machinations during Nicea I? Also, sorry (not sorry): You just can't get rid of Christ's Mother in the plan of salvation, . . . so, deal.
God bless your soul, it’s not easy to make a video like this. But the truth never is
Gavin, I appreciate this video. I was not aware of this letter from Fr. Theophan despite being an Eastern Orthodox Catechumen. I found nothing scandalizing, though, after watching the video, so I suppose that means I at least know what I am getting into. I agree, though, I do love the directness with which Fr. Theophan speaks in this letter.
I would like to respond with a few notes from myself, as an Eastern-Orthodox Catechumen- both for you and others considering your arguments against Orthodoxy. I apologize for wordiness, but I want to lay out our understanding of what you brought up (as best as I can, and in no capacity an official representative of the Church, since I am not yet Baptized).
6:30 - The entire point of this passage in Mark 9 is that if he is truly for Christ, he will wind up in The Church eventually anyways and be united with them. Also, this was before Pentecost, when The Church was set up
16:35 - Regarding this "Simple, repentance-based Gospel message," I simply do not think there is any proof in Scripture of such a requirement of "The Gospel" to be so "simple." In fact, I think what Fr. Theophan presents around 21:30 is fairly reasonable, and not that complicated; only complicated in comparison to the common Evangelical Gospel preached these days. My Deacon said to me the other day: The Faith is not supposed to be complicated. It's supposed to be lived. If you sincerely seek Christ and life in him within the Church, you will fulfill what Fr. Theophan has listed.
19:15 - The only place "justified by faith alone" appears in Scripture is in James 2. "You see then that a man is justified by works, and NOT by faith only." James directly tells us that we are also justified by works. The common reading of Protestants that this is only about external Justification in the eyes of others doesn't make any sense, and it makes us a slave to the perceptions of others. The Confession of Dositheos, Decree 13, explains this well:
"We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love, that is to say, through faith and works. But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ, and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all Orthodoxy. For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but the faith which is in us, justifies through works, with Christ. But we regard works not as witnesses certifying our calling, but as being fruits in themselves, through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises {cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10} that each of the Faithful may receive what is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad."
I know, perhaps, this may seem like an overplayed response, using James 2 (I'm sure you see it all the time), but it must be said. James very clearly lays out the role works have in our Salvation:
James 2:22 - Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?"
21:25 - "That sounds pretty exacting" - well, it is. 1 Timothy 3:15 - The Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth. Rebelling against the Church is rebelling against the Truth, and Christ, as it is the BODY of Christ. I don't think he says anything unreasonable.
23:30 - Correct, no salvation outside of the Church. If someone is saved outside the Church, it is because God mystically unites them to the Body of Christ, The Church, when they die because he finds it fitting. This is an extraordinary circumstance though, not the normative means of salvation. And I find this no more scandalizing than saying "Christianity is the only true religion." As far as this "serious concern of 2,000,000,000 Christians in the West"... I find this simply to be an emotional appeal.
24:45 - "Is the Eastern Orthodox Church the savior instead of Jesus" - The Orthodox Church IS The Body of Christ. So it is not either/or, but one and the same. The Church is the Body of Christ here on Earth. Christ has given us the Orthodox Church and the Sacraments for our Salvation. Idolatry of the Church would be very difficult to achieve, because you'd have to first embrace a misunderstanding that the Church is a separate entity from Christ, and then hold it in higher regard than God himself. The only example of this that may come to mind is the Orthobro phenomena, where Orthobros idolize an IDEA of the Church they have in their head as this based, red-pilled, political thing as opposed to Death to the World, Spiritual transformation.
29:16 - Seeing as this entire video uses Theophan as the de facto view of Salvation in Orthodoxy, I think it would only be fair to also include this quote from him about Salvation of the Heterodox.
"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever"
Frankly, this painting of the two options you frame is very deceptive and is, again, more of an appeal to emotion. "Either he is wrong and his entire tradition is wrong, or all these other 2,000,000,000 are damned." Yet, as you should see from this quote FROM THEOPHAN, it is not that cut and dry.
30:00 - How do we explain with this supposed second of our only 2 logical conclusions, the miracles, the hospitals, empire of Christianity, etc outside of Orthodoxy? I will do my best to answer (even though this was a false dichotomy you provided to use, since as shown above, Fr Theophan does not leave it so cut and dry.
1) Miracles themselves can never be proof of which faith is the true faith. There are "miracles" that occur in other religions outside of Christianity. Appealing to these other "miracles" does not prove anything, really. Within Orthodoxy, we can take miracles such as the wonderworking Icons as affirmations that strengthen our faith, but not proof of the Church in and of themselves. because as you say, Pentecostals could go "But look here! We have faith healings and speaking in tongues!" and Catholics may say "Look! We have Eucharistic Miracles." I think his Bible verse may address your appeal to miracles:
Matthew 7 - v22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ v23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
2) As far as Matthew 7:18 - A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit - will have to get back to this, however, using this to disprove any ecclesiastical exclusivity is a dangerous game, because then you as a heretic, or member of another religion, can point to the good deeds you have done as proof that your religion/sect is a "good tree." So I don't think regardless this disproves our views.
3) Number games are irrelevant when it comes to Doctrine and Dogmas of the Faith. This applies both outside of Christianity, and "within" Christianity, speaking inter-denominationally.
30:45 - Again, a mischaracterization, requiring us to unambiguously label all outside the Church, all actions, teachings, people, as all-together "completely dark, heretical, falsehood." There are bits of truth and goodness even in other RELIGIONS. However, they are still outside the Church, and are still riddled with falsehood. Feeding a homeless man from the kindness of your heart is a good work and Godly act whether you're Orthodox, Protestant, Buddhist, Luciferian, etc. I find your characterization of the conclusions of Orthodoxy to be pretty baseless and misleading, to be honest.
31:00 Once again. Even though you erroneously conclude the universal, unambiguous damnation of all non-Orthodox, a quote from the SAME MAN WHOSE LETTER YOU ARE READING: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Savior Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."
Bearing in mind Matthew 7:1 - "Judge not, lest ye be judged." There are very few situations where can know an individual to be damned for certain. But we know that as Orthodox Christians, WE must be in the Church to be saved. There is a big emphasis on focusing on our own sins and deep, continued repentance that you seem to be either unaware of or not mentioning in this video.
32:30 - I will only bring up that despite what you say about Calvin, he set up a very strict Theocracy in which he punished people who went against him or his teachings. This buddy-buddy modern Protestant ecumenism is just as much an innovation as you often accuse the views of some modern Orthodox as being. I also think it's silly to act like Protestantism is this united front, when the historical practice has been closed-communion (especially among Lutherans). Since communion is, in part, a statement of theological agreement, being in the same Church. If this view of Protestantism you have were the case, would not all Protestants practice open communion with each other?
34:30 - "Can you really stand before Christ and say you submitted to a system that requires you to reject 85% of those who can say the Apostles Creed"
...
Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Matthew 7:14 - Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Again, just an appeal to emotion. Yes, it is the hard truth that most Christians are outside the Church. That doesn't make it any less correct. The New Testament is dripping with warnings of false doctrine, apostasy, false prophets, wolves in sheeps' clothing, etc. We MUST remain vigilant.
I hope others considering or critical of Orthodoxy found this response to Gavin helpful.
Great writeup, and it's nice to see your view as a catechumen. I've been struggling with my doubts about protestantism and am heavily looking into orthodoxy. Thank you for clearly laying out this rebuttal.
You can join the OC without damning everyone else or your past experiences. Trust that God is not bound by water tight arguments and that he is free by his own will to produce fruit and work out the salvation of others outside the OC. We can hold this understanding while remaining squarely in the OC humbly doing our best to follow the safest and clearest path laid out for us. Is this not a third option? Please let an Priest in the tradition be an authority on this matter in your life.
what you are proposing is fundamentally different from what Theophan argues, is it not?
@@TruthUnites To play devil's advocate, what exactly is gained by becoming Protestant? No more free will? Interpret the Bible however you want? Condemn everyone else for *not* being Protestant? The nice thing about Orthodoxy is that all the things that make tradition beautiful - free will, the Eucharist, confession, reading the writings of the saints, etc - are so much more valuable than the empty "Jesus did everything - you can do nothing" message of what Protestant churches have to offer. People should talk with a priest, discover it on their own, not just assume Martin Luther in his crass obsessiveness was correct.
Gavin, thank you for engaging. I do believe you care deeply about those who engage with your videos. I think very highly of you.
I dont think this view is fundamentally different either. Im no apologist though and it is not my place to try. I hope you engage with more priests about this topic soon.
All i can speak to is my genuine effort to seek and become like christ. This is the attitude of many converts i know. We are counseled to trust God in the eternal destiny of none orthodox and to do our best to love and pray for all people. Thats it.
I wish none orthodox making judgements about the church would see this.
@@matthewmeyer3483 What you are writing is exactly why so many young men are looking towards tradition. The focus is "With my free will, how can I live a life that's pleasing to God"? This idea of focusing on one's own sin and correcting it with God's help seems so foreign to the typical Protestant Tradition of "Jesus did everything so let's just spend our time pointing out everyone else's flaws."
@@pianoatthirty Gavin's point about his belief that through faith alone he is saved, and by grace, 'works' flow from that, pretty much affirms your points. If there are no works, then you weren't saved, and the 'saving event' didn't somehow work. It's quite unbiblical, because if this were the case, all that Christ taught about the works required of us to have salvation were rather pointless.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. I had attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy this weekend and was surprised when the priest’s sermon focused entirely on the saint whose day the liturgy was being held for. There was no mention of evangelism, forgiveness of sins, Christ’s Kingdom, it was all focused on following the liturgy.
The grass is not always greener, guys. If you are some form of protestant and you leave for Eastern Orthodoxy, you are giving up good, long sermons focusing on teaching the word.
Protestant here who has attended a couple of Divine Liturgies. Were you able to follow along with the Liturgy? Because all of those things you say weren't in the sermon are in the Liturgy.
Long sermons aren't the be-all, end-all of Christian worship.
@@WeakestAvenger The liturgy was actually quite difficult to follow. It switched from Greek to English at random points between hymns. And in the liturgy, the priest and deacon were off doing their own thing in front of the altar. It made me feel like I was only observing the service and never actually participating in it.
That is another issue I had, that the service was mostly in Greek. It negates the idea of the catholic (universal) church the Orthodox claim they are. If I can’t partake in the full liturgy, why bother? Your church will always be a tiny minority if you don’t preach to the people in a language they understand.
Orthodox sermons are always to do with the feast or the story of the saint of the day, relating it to our lives and path to Christ. The worship is more important than the preaching. Bible and book study groups deal with other aspects, but the services are choc-o-bloc with the other things you mention.
Keep in mind that priests should be most concerned with the needs of the parishioners. His preaching is also not required to speak to the text directly. The homily is not academic Bible study time. It is the time for the flock to be given the medicine they need, which might mean hearing about the Saint being celebrated.
@@wormius7350 Because a particular Church's services were in Greek, that negates the universality of Orthodoxy? There's a Korean language Protestant church not far from my house. If I visited, would that negate Protestantism?
Most Orthodox parishes in the United States worship in English. Those that don't are often responding to the needs of the people in the congregation. Some do hold on to their language of ethnic heritage too long, but that's true elsewhere as well. Growing up as a Protestant, our services still had a lot of German in them.
The more I think about it, this is a topic that should bring about some degree of fear and trembling. You do mention this near the end of the video.
Taking into account the lessons of Mark 9 as well as warnings, and also the commandments from 1 John that we liberally love one another without exception on the basis of the liberality of God's love for all of us... it is clear that we must all by faith see the savior go to the cross for all of us, for all of our sins, and an immediate consequence is that we are not competing we all need Christ equally because we are all sinners. Instead of competing, the command is clear: encourage one another, be kind, *even if there are differences*.
Indeed. This quote is at the heart of Orthodoxy. The writing that Gavin used of St Theophan was to Orthodox being draw away. It wasn't directed towards those outside the Church. Theophan in another letter said not to be concerned about those outside Orthodoxy, but consider our own sins, and God decides in his love about each person, regardless of where they are. We must love all.
But Dr Gavin, is this not like the way protestant view JW or Mormons? The way a lot of protestant traditions view Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism? You said it yourself, your deep concern that adherents of the Eastern Orthodox faith may very well have their church as an idol, becoming idolaters. Do you believe there are idolaters in heaven? You sound just as worried as St Theophan. Shedding tears for lost lambs and both fighting for your flock and your faith. So I admire your pastoral care for the weary christians seeking other boats, but beware that your views as shown in this video is the same way non-christians view us christians.
This is like listening to Richard Dawkins if he became a protestant.
Im not orthodox but this was infuriating to listen to.
LOL 😂
protestants try not to use "ill pray for you" as a statement to bash people with challenge impossible; whenever you cant defend your beliefs just tell the other party youll pray for them, Phariseemaxxing
I look forward to the rebuttal videos and rebuttal responses from you lol
Great video!
The devil works hard but Gavin works harder!! Thank you SO much Gavin for all the research, reading, studying, & of course production of your videos. Please please please continue these bc way too many devout Protestants are crossing over to Orthodoxy without the slightest clue of what they’re really submitting to… Lord please bring people back to your Word & to Christ alone🙏🏻😔❤️
Thanks. I think I finally got it, you know, well enough to remember it.
So, St. Theophan says something spot on. How I've wished Christian apologists would focus on non-Christians rather than fellow Christians. I imagine that this would be more challenging and result in fewer clicks.
If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that there's no such thing as false conversions? If you agree that there are people who believe they're saved, yet are not, then why should no one be concerned with the final destination of these unsaved, same as those equally unsaved who don't even claim to be a Christian? For me, all souls matter equally, whether they're among the church or outside of it.
Edit: I didn't initially realize how many EOs are here to disagree with Dr. Ortlund. I'd you're EO, then yah, we won't agree on what criteria points toward a false conversion, etc.
Focus on non-christians, such as orthodox people. thats what he is doing.
@@easytiger35common bro, let’s not stoop to such levels. They are baptized in the name of the Father,Son, and Holy Spirit. Also, they confess Christ to be Lord. They are Christian. The Orthodox need to accept our baptism and we need to accept theirs as well. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Once we Christians realize that we all have a seat at the table we will be able to have real conversations and resolve real differences. This animosity has got to go though
@@FireSquad101 i dont believe they are following scripture by requiring more than faith to be saved. therefore their view of salvation is flawed from the start. If its not by faith alone, its like any other religion that holds human works as a requirement.
This is my remaining hesitation at a personal level with becoming EO.
In principle though, as an objection it resembles that which atheists & other religions might say about Christianity more broadly understood, just a step removed: "are you really saying these good vituous people outside of christianity are damned?"
The difference is in your example, the other religions and atheists aren't in agreement of the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the inerrancy of the Bible, etc.
“So you’re saying out of all the thousands of religions, only ONE is right?”
“So you’re saying out of thousands of denominations only ONE is right?”
Gavin's objections are about something believed by the whole Church since the 1st century. Basically, there can only be one truth. And if someone chooses to reject it, then they are quite likely damned. What Gavin is not confronting is that this text by Theophan was to Orthodox Christians being pulled away from the Church's truth. It was not directed to Protestants. Theophan wrote a very different letter regarding Protestants, saying that people should consider their own sins before thinking about the sins or warwardness of others... and that God wishes all to be saved, and we do not know the mind of God. We cannot judge.
@@matthew7491protestants arent in agreement on theology,different trinitarian understandings, different creeds, different concepts of Christ's divinity.
also mormons believe in a kind of trinitarianism, they affirm the deity of Christ, they affirm the Bible or claim to (similar to protestants who supposedly affirm the Bible but are missing 8 books)
why arent mormons christians if they fulfill that vague arbitrary criteria you gave?
The gospel is the glorious truth, what Christian doesn't love to hear it?
To me, EO has the Gospel, but lots of additional bells and whistles, but they say the bells and whistles are necessary, and that's the flaw. I'd considered joining RC and EO, but couldn't, because of the bells and whistles.
Yeah it's like saying if you don't have automatic windows in your car instead of manual ones your anathema
@@adamguy33 Sorta, yeah.
I come from EO. No protestant convinced me to leave it. When I heard the Gospel from one, that was the moment I actually understood what Jesus did for us and from that moment I began to read the Bible and listen to apologetics regarding the existence of God. So nothing that would be against Orthodox or Catholic for quite a while. Yet the bells and whistles you talk about were too heavy on my conscience and I did end up letting it go. I would cringe when I would hear a church song and if before I did not pay attention to the words, now I could not help but spot when they include veneration and even worship to Mary. You can only take that for so long... I am convinced by the text of the Bible, especially the Psalms, that God wants a relationship with you of a nature that is separate and intimate - you and Him only. And also by how it is clear that all glory, worship, and prayers go to HIm and that there is none, even the most saint of the saints that can come close enough to such worthiness to be considered to be ok to receive such veneration. Everybody is just like Isaiah said - full of filthy rags (by comparison). And that includes Mary.
I think you misunderstand EO teachings. Im also trying to learn more abb EO. and as i understand it seems to me that the Gospel and the “bells and whistles” are not seperate as u talk abb it. Rather they see what you call “Gospel and bells and whistles” as the Gospel itself. So in the EO view its not that they added to the Gospel but thay protestanst just have a “half” gospel, so to speak. I hope it makes sense. This is my understanding so far as. im trying to learn more myself
@@shammy-thaynemaximiliana9146 Right, so, as I said, they make the bells and whistles "necessary", but, if that is the case, how do I know the Lord, and how has He transformed me, when I'm not EO? It doesn't add up.
@TruthUnites I'll preface this with the caveat that I am not Eastern Orthodox, but I'm curious how you would respond to an attempted reconciliation between St. Theophan's message and the Eastern doctrine of apocatastasis.
Basically, it would seem in the light of apocatastasis that St. Theophan's words would need to be understood as establishing the criteria for an epistemic certainty of one's salvation but communicated pastorally in a firm manner to discourage a vulnerable son from going astray (in his perspective). It seems regardless of how you understand apocatastasis that some not within the visible bounds of Orthodoxy will be reconciled to God and saved, and that St. Theophan's message is in some way compatible with that doctrine assuming St. Theophan holds to it or that he would at least not condemn the faithful Orthodox who do like St. Gregory of Nyssa.
Given that interpretation, the Eastern Orthodox position as put by St. Theophan would seem far closer if not identical to the Roman Catholic doctrine expounded in places like Lumen Gentium 16.
Admittedly, I would need to carry out a thorough reading of his work and study the theology of apocatastasis before making any confident assertion. Your thoughts are appreciated!
15:56 It's not enough to have a simple message.
29:04/31:04 "We do not need to return the favor and reject them."
I’ve never been this early!
Any form of Christianity that supports Nicaea II has a tremendous load of problems to solve. I pray for them because many of them really love Jesus.
Icons are objectively beautiful and tell stories of the churches rich history. They have always been around even well before nicea 2. Anyone who rejects it has a load of problems, they must explain why it is that we need to throw away thousands of years of church history because pastor Bob with no basis of authority says so
If the Filioque is a heresy, then the proto-heretic in England would be Theodore of Tarsus, who is an Orthodox saint. Make sense of this if you can.
All the pre-schism saints are retained.
Moreover, you are allowed to have wrong thoughts and ideas and still be Orthodox. The main issue is if you are teaching that idea and refuse to give up those ideas when the church corrects you on it. Even moreso if you continue teaching that idea after being told it was wrong.
This is also why Augustine is a saint, he said some troubling things but recanted and even said he wasn't sure if he is right and if isn't to ignore him.
Tldr; Being Christian doesn't turn you into a mindless all knowing robot. This is why we must pray and turn to God and make sure we are getting our ideas from him.
you think you cooked here?🤣
@@KillerofGodsSo when did the church correct followers of St Theodore, of happy memory, such as myself?
@@david_porthouse When they split off in the great schism...
Keep in mind it was/had been debated for awhile.
Even people like Maximus the confessor talked about it and was fine with it meaning through the son but not to be used as from the son himself.
Where the former was fine and the latter was heretical. Even today most Orthodox agree (or at least the ones that I've heard mention this) that through isn't heretical.
I would suggest an orthodox apologist seraphim hamilton who is also responding to these contentions from ortlund & other protestants. Hope it helps godspeed friends 🙏✝️☦️
Genuine question about something. So, the claim is that one should not become a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, because they would be committing to a congregation that historically has essentially said "our way is the only way".
Okay, but consider this; isn't it the exact same case for the Protestant position in a video like this? If it really is the case that there are true bothers and sisters in Christ across Protestants, Catholics and EOs... why would Protestants feel the need to keep anyone OUT of any one of them equally?
It just seems to me like a case of "rules for thee, but not for me". As in, my appeal for you not to join EO does not apply equally to Catholic or EO appeals for you to not join Protestantism for... reasons.
I don't know those reasons, why wouldn't it apply equally? Really does seem like one's advocation of their own sect is a "this is right, and that is not, so don't join that" situation regardless of what side one is on.
We affirm that our Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox brothers are Christians and can be saved. But there are serious errors within those churches that could jeopardize the salvation of a Christian within that church. That is why we would try to dissuade people from converting. Our way isn't the only way to follow Christ, but we believe it is the best way.
@@npuritan6769 But, that's the exact same argument on the other side/sides as well...
@@brando3342no. They do not traditionally affirm others are Christian. This is changing slowly. From the Catholic side this changed a lot with Vatican 2.
I had the same thought. It seems harsh, but I was unsurprised by the content of the letter. We are so used to the liberality of “many ways have something true in them” that we are surprised when someone says “we are right and the rest are wrong”
Good point. Clearly double standards.
Right, but the context is to someone who is already part of the Church. He is warning them against following those outside the Church, which is standard and obvious from an Orthodox perspective. But Bishop Theophan is also famously quoted as saying "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." So, this quote I just provided gives a fuller context. His words apply most immediately to those who are apart of the Church who are tempted to fall into heresy. As for those outside of the Church who have never been illumined and tasted of the heavenly gift, he has a more ambigious statement: "He will take care of them." So, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien? Do I need to be burdened as an Orthodox Christian with whether nor not God will save them? Bishop Theophan says "God will take care of them." But my own soul? I need to be very much concerned with that.
I love what you pointed out at the end about the Protestant influence on the thinking of modern Roman Catholics and Orthodox. One of the main reasons that I see people converting away from Protestantism is that one of these other churches has the "ancient faith" or something like that. And yet their thinking on this topic does not reflect the ancient teachings of their church, and instead is influenced by the Protestants that they so look down upon 😂
I'd love to know if there are other areas where Protestant teaching has influenced the views of modern RC and Orthodox.
All appeals made by any EO folks to look "more ancient" and "more faithful to the sacred tradition" will instantly cease to be effective when they have to explain why the True/Genuine EO and World EO (not to mention the Old Believers) can be divided over "trivial" stuffs, and that this somehow would cause one to be either saved or not saved.
Imagine yourself being outside the "ark of salvation" simply because you celebrate Christmas either two weeks earlier or later than the supposed one true church.
I'm of the opinion that a large number of clergy (of all or most religions) are quick to demonize others not because of spiritual or theological issues, but to protect their livelihood and guard their influence. Where would the Bishop be if all his people started meeting at the bookbinder's house?
You don't seem to know about the life of St Theophan if you think he was worried about protecting his livelihood. He was a monk who was made a bishop against his will, begged to be allowed to return to being a simple monk, and even when he was allowed to retire and made abbot of a monastery, he asked to be allowed to retire from that position as well. He wanted to live as simply as possible and was known for shunning any luxury.
The truth or falsity of St Theophan's claims shouldn't be influenced by appealing emotionally to what that would mean for billions of Christians in the West, otherwise the same logic would lead one necessarily to universalism. The number of Muslims and other non Christians is greater than the number of non Orthodox Western Christians, and each of them is a person created in the image and likeness of God, someone for whom Christ died. What about the salvation of all of those billions? "Utter lack of love" indeed! Obviously, you would say that they should be evangelized and that the truth of what the Bible teaches isn't hindered by that consideration.
Rather, there would be more benefit in trying to understand how people like St Theophan and others can both speak positively of salvation of non Orthodox Christians and yet speak like he does in this letter. Another example would be Fr Seraphim Rose, often considered to be a stark opponent of ecumenism and a proponent of the necessity of the Orthodox Church, and yet also speaks of Protestants as having a real relationship with Christ and potential for salvation.
And it simply isn't true that Orthodoxy, in the particular band of centuries you're restricting yourself to in order to make your point, taught differently than before or after. See, for example, St Theophylact of Ochrid in the late 11th century, the earliest Orthodox views of Anglicanism, etc
as I repeatedly stated during the video, it is not an emotional appeal, but an appeal to obey Jesus' commandments of discerning his followers.
@TruthUnites I mean no disrespect, but it can absolutely be both, and comments here show that it was taken as such. People are responding by accusing us of thinking it's "based" to imagine our ancestors in Hell.
@@TruthUnites Also, the comment in the video that it would show an "utter lack of love" to condemn two billion Western Christians to hell is different than saying it would show a lack of the discernment Christ commands us to have.
Those are separate arguments. Pointing out that you said it would show a lack of discernment doesn't mean it's all that you said. The logic of it being "unloving" absolutely applies more broadly and leads to universalism.
@@TruthUnitesit is an emotional appeal, i can say the same thing for non christians lol, and its no wonder since protestantism is slowly melting into the one world religion; you will be saying these same things to justify your praying with muslims and hindus soon.
it is an utter lack of love to condemn all non christians so you must deny Christ and affirm humanism, this is what Christ teaches us.
amazing.
I am Orthodox and see massive blind spots to Gavin's "unavoidable implications" that are consistently brought up. He paints a contradiction between historical Orthodox teaching and modern teaching where there is no contradiction. I do not understand why this is a blind spot when Protestants themselves also engage with this same exact tension: Drawing the boundaries of salvation in no uncertain terms (deemed as the historical emphasis), while simultaneously leaving those outside to God's judgement (deemed as the modern emphasis). These two things do not exist in contradiction, and it is something *all* do.
Does Gavin or any other Protestant for that matter feel confident in judging those outside of the faith? Would you be confident in stating whether all Non-Christians are absolutely damned? Using your own logic to draw implications against the Orthodox, the same implications can be brought towards you against the entirety of the world. Every society, philanthropic enterprise, creed, faith etc that has not known Christ or preached a different Christ is devoid of the grace of God and doomed to perdition without hope according to your own logic. Yet, Protestants don't do that. They affirm "Christ is the way," and for some reason don't apply their own harrowing implications they do to the Orthodox.
Protestants simultaneously affirm the absoluteness with which it is said, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit," and they also refrain from judging the entirety of the world who has not done so. Do you make Christ a liar? No! But you affirm the indispensability and absoluteness of His word.
Protestants simultaneously affirm the absoluteness with which our Lord says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood, you have no life in you," yet they also refrain from judging those who have not eaten His Flesh and drunk His Blood. Preaching the absoluteness of this teaching while leaving the outside to God's judgement does in no way make Christ a liar. The indispensability and absoluteness of His word is still the preserved.
The Orthodox believe the Church is where we know His sacraments are efficacious and the Holy Spirit dwells. We say that, and yet it is not some tacit statement saying He is limited, bounded, or incapable of acting on anyone as He wills. That fact doesn’t negate the boundaries of the Ark of Salvation. The Lord’s grace being given as He wills does not blow up the true, historic, and continuous necessity of sacraments. Any more than the Lord’s ability to act unbounded doesn’t blow up the true, historic, and continuous ecclesiology.
Again, the emotional thread he consistently pulls on is not based on a disposition alien to Protestantism. Protestants do the same exact thing. The scandal Gavin is trying to propagate is merely in the location of the boundaries. Should a Mormon preacher come to preach Christ at his congregation and steal some congregants, I'm sure his own worries for their salvation would ensue. Talks of the Mormon's false prophethood, false gospel, and heresies that would lead to perdition would also come into play. AT THE SAME TIME, he would not say that every Mormon is in a graceless darkness guaranteed to end up in Gehenna.
To conclude, there really is an absolute truth. There truly exists a deposit of faith that is not up to us to piece together, but up to us to adhere to as it was delivered once and for all. This deposit truly is to exist in perpetuity. Perpetuated not by diffuse, incomplete partitions, but subsisting in its fullness from beginning to end. To that end, this deposit was promised a custodian. A custodian deemed a Body and the pillar and ground of truth.
An excellent diagnosis!
Dr. Ortlund, I really wish you would do more dialoguing with qualified Orthodox representatives and get their viewpoints of this source material. I think you would come to fairer, more nuanced conclusions and it would be beneficial to all.
He’s done this plenty of times
I completely agree!
As nice as you sound, the "considering the implications" portion of this video resounds of an ultimatum fallacy with the sentimental cry of "damnation and damning all one knows," if he is to accept one and reject the other. To even reason that the one who would accept EO would stand before God and be quizzed on doctrine as opposed to being judged on the state of his heart is precisely why people are deeply reconsidering their Calvinistic inheritance.
I think anyone who is interested in the EO, and particularly coming from a Protestant background should understand before getting involved with that tradition should realize that, past and even in many places still in the present, they have affirmed that all those outside their church are damned. The importance of this cannot be overstated.
THis has been the belief of Christianity for 2000 years. Although today, you'll find very few Orthodox believe that now.
Who is saved, is only known by God... although, there can only be one Truth... not numerous truths.
@@ArchangelIcon That's my point exactly - and Gavin's closing argument. Either the EO church is unchanging in which case billions of people who call themselves Christian today are not saved, and are part of traditions that have never been saved, or you have to admit that the EO do change and that their claims to being the unchanged faith of the apostles is invalidated. Truth exists indeed, but the EO practice here is badly out of alignment with that truth.
This is more dogmatic in Roman Catholicism. If you go to practically any EO church, they will tell you Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith, while also understanding Gods infinite mercy extends not only to orthodox Christian’s who have fallen short of His holiness, but to everyone outside the church.
@@ArchangelIconit’s been the belief in that all those who trust in Christ are in the church. It’s not in reference to the ROMAN Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox Church. You guys using this phrase now in the way you’re using it is anachronistic.
@@jonmack2437 I agree - the RC church has also had this view for most of its history and its as much a problem for them as for the EO. I think what you mean is that if you go to most American EO churches they will tell you that - I am not aware that this is the case in other countries, and it certainly wasn't the case in the past. So it creates a dillema of either saying that the EO church is the historic and unchanging faith, and that more than 2 billion people who call themselves Christians today are not saved, as has been the historic position, or you break with that claim and embrace the more modern position that the EO church has the fullness of the faith and that many others are saved as well, in which case you loose the ability to say that the EO is the unchanging faith of the apostles across all ages.
These comments are hilarious.