There's a little bit of misinformation with what you said in regards to "making the hole smaller" aka stopping down your lens. To reduce the moire, you either want to shoot completely wide open aperture (where your lens is the least sharp), or all the way stopped down to f16 or f32 (depending on your lens). Just stopping down partially actually makes it worse as lenses tend to have their best sharpness around f5.6-f8.
You can also reduce or possibly eliminate the moire pattern in your shot by moving closer or farther from the object with the moire pattern and changing the lens focal-length to keep the same framing. The same can be done by shooting in APS-C format on your Full Frame camera and divide the focal-length by 1.5 to obtain the same framing. ( so if you shot with a 50mm on Full Frame, you would shoot with a 35mm in APS-C format ) If nothing works, the final step is to shoot with a Cine camera with an optical low-pass filter in front of the sensor. ( the Panasonic S1H has this filter )
If you didn’t mention it, I will now…the S1H and S5 both have the same sensor (I own both and also now a S5iiX) but the big difference in the image of the S1H is what some people describe as an “organic softness”, which is due to a piece of hardware the S1H has and S5 (and S5iiX) lacks, called an Optical Low Pass Filter (OLPF) and sometimes called an Anti Aliasing Filter. The OLPF prevents moire from the get go but also adds a pleasing but detailed softness, if that makes sense? I shoot the S1H and S5 together sometimes and the difference is noticeable on any image. The key is to know your camera’s weaknesses and play to its strengths. If I were you shooting fabric weaves and patterns, the S5iiX would make me nervous! Look at getting a used S1H? Or wait for the new one shortly to be announced? …it will get PDAF. It’ll also be very expensive!!
I did not mention this! deserves a pin. Great points made, I am nervous not gonna lie. I still have a few more days before the return policy expires haha. I really do hope this camera works out. love the video features without sacrificing a lot of photo capabilities
@@AaronArao I haven't even got mine in the mail :D I'ma switch it out for a X-H2s if they don't try to fix some of it's issues via firmware. But OLPF can't be added...
I do agree - OLPFs weren’t bad, but once reviewers started shooting charts it seems like everything got so sharp and clinical and lacks character. With exception to Fujifilm, it seems like everything is going that direction which is why I’ve used at least an 1/8 mist filter on my lenses. The XH2S by Fuji was so close to being my perfect hybrid but they have some little things to iron out with their video AF technology first.
I may be mistaken, but in v-log there sharpness is set to 0 and it doesn't let you reduce it more than that. at least in the profile. disclaimer: The shot of the city had these settings. Thank you sharing to inform others!
Wouldnt all mirrorleas cameras that dont have an OLPF suffer from moire. I had a c70 for years and never had an issue with the Moire. Why is this such an issue for Lumix? Any updates?
Only higher-end Lumix cameras have an OLPF to prevent moiré. S1H, BS1H, GH5S and BGH1... I did a comparison of some of these cameras on my channel, and I noticed that at higher res, the moiré is less pronounced. Even the old GH4 did okay in my tests in some circumstances. 4k+ if you downsample to 1080p then it becomes horrible. That's why S1H and BGH1 got their netflix approval, cinema cameras all have an OLPF, but the price tag goes with it.
@@valkiron11 I'm pretty sure Canon has a secret sauce to their sensor that acts as an OLPF somehow. They have a technology called High-Res Gaussian Distribution LPF on their sensor.
@@valkiron11 it's true. It's special 4.6k sensor design has minimal moiré by default. They couldn't achieve this with the Ursa 12k. That's why they did the 12k OLPF version afterwards.
Panasonic and Sony really need to not abandon OLPF that kill moire on the spot. It’s criminal to sell camera bodies without those filters. Canon to their credit still has many pro camera bodies with or without OLPF (The R3 has one, the C70 oddly does not.) I hope for an S1H Mark II with phase detect autofocus from the S5II, but combined with an optical low pass filter, 4K 60p and above with no crop, and a faster readout sensor to reduce rolling shutter. That’ll be the killer Panasonic camera. In the meantime, the S5II and X models are very capable but limited cameras.
Totally agree. That camera would be amazing! what I heard was that people were complaining a lot because of the OLPF, back when cameras weren't as sharp as and they wanted the sharpest they can get I guess... and now were paying for it. that could just be a total made up story tho haha
@@AaronArao That’s basically exactly what happened, based on my understanding. Sharpness and detail became the #1 priority, and the easiest way to do that was removing OLPFs. Canon to their credit, and they have their host of problems lol, has developed newer OLPFs while retaining incredible detail. Sony and Panasonic could learn a thing or two from them. In fact, it’s why I’m considering (after 10 years) jumping into Canon again with their RF system. Their lenses work on RED cameras, which I use occasionally, and their pro bodies like the R5C and R3, while not perfect, have OLPFs to kill moire.
My Sony A6700 and Fujifilm X-S20 do not have a low pass filter either. Not sure why camera makers don't offer them. Is there an option in the settings to reduce sharpness?
typically you can adjust sharpness in settings, but for v-log its default has no added sharpness. (when I caught moire I was in v - log) your camera's might be different!
I heard from a long time lumix s5 user that shooting video in VLOG, he never experienced moire with this camera ever....anyone pls share your thoughts/experiments...
I shot in v log. I think maybe what's more important based on the comments and other videos is to shoot at the highest quality you can. 6k open gate for the Lumix s5ii
@@AaronArao well if you saw moire shooting in vlog then I think I would have to think twice before going this route. If no moire in 4k vlog, its acceptable... :-)
shoot in 4k , not high speed 1080 for sure. Maybe APSC will help. Turn sharpness down in camera. I am not expert though and you raise what could be a very useful topic if we all learn from some pros approaches. I would love to hear a complete approach from anyone that is an expert in this area
If you're able to recreate the moire reliably, maybe try adding a 1/16 or 1/8 Black Pro Mist filter and see of that solves it? Would be a great tool to have in your kit that you can quickly throw on in the rare events you get moire in your images. I pre-ordered the S5IIX so curious about this as well. I have a 1/8 pro mist from Nisi that I can try testing when my S5IIX arrives.
image out of this new sensor is bad. i hope they can fix it with firmware. i really cant believe they released this camera like that. i have one and super disappointed
Yes I was recording in v-log. when converted to 709 the saturation made it even more apparent. I forgot to mention this in the video but apparently recording at a high resolution reduces the moire. for instance, 6k vs 1080p. still unsure how accurate that is based on my testing
Truth be told only us camera snobs will look at you crazy for having it in your photo. I use to go crazy over stuff like that. Every photo i took no one ever seen what i could see.
What is this Footage?? 1080p highspeed? (it looks like). in 4K60p Mode it is 1:1 Readout in APS-C Size, 1:1 Readout is often a cause for that. In 4K30 FullSensor Oversampling Readout maybe shouldn't have it?.. Only Workaround (without huge Sacrifice) is turning on digi. Stabilisation, that should help. If you want to work freely without even thinking about Morie for the long Future, you need to consider to switch in the Fuji System with an X-Trans Sensor (X-H2, X-H2S, X-T5, X-T4, X-T3 etc.). The only Brand using a different Readout Pattern where a Low-pass Filter isn't needed and you will never see Morie at full sharpness.
to answer your question the building footage with the moire was at 1080p 60fps. the test shots were also 1080. I forget what fps it was. not gonna lie I need to learn like half of the things you said haha. like the oversampling/ and readout. feel free to explain it like i'm five for me and others haha🫡
@@AaronArao oh sorry for that:) maybe some basics will help, you don’t need to know deep details. It’s not about sensor size, let’s say that all sensors have 24 megapixels. (6K - 6 thousand horizontal lines). It is necessary to know how much of the sensor the camera uses in a specific video mode. Some cameras already lose quality at 60 FPS, the most begin losing at 120 FPS, because of more data per second they are reading less pixels of the sensor. At 4K resolution, all 6K pixels will be read out and down scaled to 4K, this is called oversampling, the ideal case. Much more difficult is to explain the side effects of sensors with Baier pattern readout. There you have always aliaising Effects at a 1:1 read out for example. To minimize that, manufactures using low cut filters in front of the sensor, with the cost of sharpness. Especially in 1080p, it is important to learn how the camera is doing it. The cheapest and worst way is line skipping which results in an unsharp image.( could be the case in your video) So at first you make a test at 4K30p with your S5II, to see if the camera produces Morie in its best mode. Try to learn about the things/words I have used on other videos on UA-cam or Google;) To see how cameras/sensors behave, you can also visit the German website slashcam . de (type the camera model in the search on the left side) Fuji cameras are using a different mosaic pattern, more randomly, unable to produce morie. Keep that back in your mind if you experience Problems with your work or if you get unhappy with the situation Bye;)
@@AaronArao in 1080p, the camera always uses line-skipping except in pixel-for-pixel mode. It's this line-skipping causing this moire effect. Always shoot video in 4k or higher and you'll be fine. Downscale in post if you need to. For stills taken from a tripod of stationary subjects, using the high-res mode will completely eliminate any moire in stills.
Please stop spreading blatant misinformation. If the solution to moire was as simple as that, majority of cinema cameras won't be using bayer sensors. And monochrome sensors, which don't even have a colour filter array,, also experience moire,, but without the false colour. Moire is due to similarity in spatial frequency of the on sensor image and pixels on the sensor. To put it simply, if there is a pattern that is so detailed and sharp that it is out resolving your sensor, you'll encounter moire.
@@Wildridefilms show me a Fuji X-Trans Image with Moire, you will not find one. You can see that on all DPReview Studio Comparison shots. The X-Trans Pattern have this advantage, believe it or not
funny to see a whole new gen of noobs not realizing: Cameras actually had OLPF at first, and the OEMs got rid of them because of endless complaining about resolution problems. Because pros knew that moire (that happens sometimes) can be removed in post (by performing a digital OLPF), but loss of res (that happens every time) can never be restored in post (because the information was irrevocably discarded).
There's a little bit of misinformation with what you said in regards to "making the hole smaller" aka stopping down your lens. To reduce the moire, you either want to shoot completely wide open aperture (where your lens is the least sharp), or all the way stopped down to f16 or f32 (depending on your lens). Just stopping down partially actually makes it worse as lenses tend to have their best sharpness around f5.6-f8.
totally agree. I should have been more clear. I'll pin your comment for others!!
You can also reduce or possibly eliminate the moire pattern in your shot by moving closer or farther from the object with the moire pattern and changing the lens focal-length to keep the same framing. The same can be done by shooting in APS-C format on your Full Frame camera and divide the focal-length by 1.5 to obtain the same framing. ( so if you shot with a 50mm on Full Frame, you would shoot with a 35mm in APS-C format ) If nothing works, the final step is to shoot with a Cine camera with an optical low-pass filter in front of the sensor. ( the Panasonic S1H has this filter )
Okay will definitely try this!
If you didn’t mention it, I will now…the S1H and S5 both have the same sensor (I own both and also now a S5iiX) but the big difference in the image of the S1H is what some people describe as an “organic softness”, which is due to a piece of hardware the S1H has and S5 (and S5iiX) lacks, called an Optical Low Pass Filter (OLPF) and sometimes called an Anti Aliasing Filter. The OLPF prevents moire from the get go but also adds a pleasing but detailed softness, if that makes sense? I shoot the S1H and S5 together sometimes and the difference is noticeable on any image. The key is to know your camera’s weaknesses and play to its strengths. If I were you shooting fabric weaves and patterns, the S5iiX would make me nervous! Look at getting a used S1H? Or wait for the new one shortly to be announced? …it will get PDAF. It’ll also be very expensive!!
I did not mention this! deserves a pin. Great points made, I am nervous not gonna lie. I still have a few more days before the return policy expires haha. I really do hope this camera works out. love the video features without sacrificing a lot of photo capabilities
@@AaronArao you can mostly soften moire in post…but sometimes you can’t. Also it’s unpredictable when it will occur.
@@AaronArao I haven't even got mine in the mail :D I'ma switch it out for a X-H2s if they don't try to fix some of it's issues via firmware. But OLPF can't be added...
@@dantecorbett2221 a Black ProMist 1/8 helps but yeah, still not as good as OLPF
I do agree - OLPFs weren’t bad, but once reviewers started shooting charts it seems like everything got so sharp and clinical and lacks character. With exception to Fujifilm, it seems like everything is going that direction which is why I’ve used at least an 1/8 mist filter on my lenses. The XH2S by Fuji was so close to being my perfect hybrid but they have some little things to iron out with their video AF technology first.
Did you ever try recording BRAW with an external codec (say, a BM 12g), and if so, did you notice any improvement on the moires?
to reduece the aliasing effect turne the shrpness as low as possibel in the camera (picture profile) and if need it add shapness in post
I may be mistaken, but in v-log there sharpness is set to 0 and it doesn't let you reduce it more than that. at least in the profile. disclaimer: The shot of the city had these settings. Thank you sharing to inform others!
Throw a gaussian blur on the green channel and you will knock out a big chunk of the problem.
i'll put this in my bag. thank you
For the moire, dont shoot in APS-C and with 6k No more moire, totally clean.
Please make a complete and clear sentence so we can understand what you think to and what you think not to do.
Wouldnt all mirrorleas cameras that dont have an OLPF suffer from moire. I had a c70 for years and never had an issue with the Moire. Why is this such an issue for Lumix? Any updates?
hey Aaron! I just bought an Fx3 and I am quite surprised by all this horrible moire on my footage. Coming from a bmpcc6k I'm feeling a huge downgrade.
Only higher-end Lumix cameras have an OLPF to prevent moiré. S1H, BS1H, GH5S and BGH1... I did a comparison of some of these cameras on my channel, and I noticed that at higher res, the moiré is less pronounced. Even the old GH4 did okay in my tests in some circumstances. 4k+ if you downsample to 1080p then it becomes horrible. That's why S1H and BGH1 got their netflix approval, cinema cameras all have an OLPF, but the price tag goes with it.
Not really. The Canon EOS C70 doesn't have an OLPF and it still got approved.
@@valkiron11 I'm pretty sure Canon has a secret sauce to their sensor that acts as an OLPF somehow. They have a technology called High-Res Gaussian Distribution LPF on their sensor.
@@ntchi Touché. It has anti-aliasing, just not OLPF. Looks like those boys over at Netflix don't fool around.
@@ntchi The Blackmagic Design Ursa Mini 4.6K cameras don't have anti-aliasing.
@@valkiron11 it's true. It's special 4.6k sensor design has minimal moiré by default. They couldn't achieve this with the Ursa 12k. That's why they did the 12k OLPF version afterwards.
Panasonic and Sony really need to not abandon OLPF that kill moire on the spot. It’s criminal to sell camera bodies without those filters. Canon to their credit still has many pro camera bodies with or without OLPF (The R3 has one, the C70 oddly does not.) I hope for an S1H Mark II with phase detect autofocus from the S5II, but combined with an optical low pass filter, 4K 60p and above with no crop, and a faster readout sensor to reduce rolling shutter. That’ll be the killer Panasonic camera. In the meantime, the S5II and X models are very capable but limited cameras.
Totally agree. That camera would be amazing! what I heard was that people were complaining a lot because of the OLPF, back when cameras weren't as sharp as and they wanted the sharpest they can get I guess... and now were paying for it. that could just be a total made up story tho haha
@@AaronArao That’s basically exactly what happened, based on my understanding. Sharpness and detail became the #1 priority, and the easiest way to do that was removing OLPFs. Canon to their credit, and they have their host of problems lol, has developed newer OLPFs while retaining incredible detail. Sony and Panasonic could learn a thing or two from them. In fact, it’s why I’m considering (after 10 years) jumping into Canon again with their RF system. Their lenses work on RED cameras, which I use occasionally, and their pro bodies like the R5C and R3, while not perfect, have OLPFs to kill moire.
I hope the S1 m2 has a OLPF unlike last gen, so I don’t have just jump to the next s1h m2 for it…
The S1H does not have that affect
My Sony A6700 and Fujifilm X-S20 do not have a low pass filter either. Not sure why camera makers don't offer them. Is there an option in the settings to reduce sharpness?
typically you can adjust sharpness in settings, but for v-log its default has no added sharpness. (when I caught moire I was in v - log) your camera's might be different!
I can assure you this happens on Sony also because of no OlPF
Maybe photo-wise shot with high res mode could eliminate the moire too
Yes it does, so for stills with a steady scene, this can be eliminated.
I heard from a long time lumix s5 user that shooting video in VLOG, he never experienced moire with this camera ever....anyone pls share your thoughts/experiments...
I shot in v log. I think maybe what's more important based on the comments and other videos is to shoot at the highest quality you can. 6k open gate for the Lumix s5ii
@@AaronArao so you saw moire shooting 4k or 1080p in vlog even?
I was shooting at 1080p so yeah haha@@milanjani
@@AaronArao well if you saw moire shooting in vlog then I think I would have to think twice before going this route. If no moire in 4k vlog, its acceptable... :-)
shoot in 4k , not high speed 1080 for sure. Maybe APSC will help. Turn sharpness down in camera. I am not expert though and you raise what could be a very useful topic if we all learn from some pros approaches.
I would love to hear a complete approach from anyone that is an expert in this area
Thank you for commenting! Yeah this comment section has been filled with a lot of creative ideas to solve it
What other tests should I run?
Seeing if the lowlight breaks apart around 3200 ISO. Maybe a rolling shutter test.
Yeah these are some solid ideas! This is my first ever full frame camera, I'm curious how it will hold up
If you're able to recreate the moire reliably, maybe try adding a 1/16 or 1/8 Black Pro Mist filter and see of that solves it? Would be a great tool to have in your kit that you can quickly throw on in the rare events you get moire in your images.
I pre-ordered the S5IIX so curious about this as well. I have a 1/8 pro mist from Nisi that I can try testing when my S5IIX arrives.
do you think panasonic lumix s1h has the same issue?
No! the s1h has the OLPF which is made specifically to remove moire
what about diffusion or/and pro-mist filters?
The shot with moire was using a black pro mist 1/8 strength. going higher in strength might help but may not be the look you want.
@@AaronArao thanks!
image out of this new sensor is bad. i hope they can fix it with firmware. i really cant believe they released this camera like that. i have one and super disappointed
Totally understand the frustration!
Still stand by the idea that it’s the best bang for buck at the moment tho… for the the hybrid shooter I guess
Is this happening during color grade w log profile?Thank You
Yes I was recording in v-log. when converted to 709 the saturation made it even more apparent. I forgot to mention this in the video but apparently recording at a high resolution reduces the moire. for instance, 6k vs 1080p. still unsure how accurate that is based on my testing
Try softening image/video in camera
so you solved the Moire problem NOT shooting what causes the Moire problem... wtf.
Sony A6400 aps-c in 4K and Dji sensors have the same problem !!!
Truth be told only us camera snobs will look at you crazy for having it in your photo. I use to go crazy over stuff like that. Every photo i took no one ever seen what i could see.
the things we do haha
Been catching it with my sony a few times on clothing.. so it can happen, even though rare.
yep, i'm hoping it is very rare. gotta revisit that building and run some more tests
@@AaronArao how is it so far bro?
@@arlarla catch it more in photo than in video. a lot easier to remove in post in photo!
LOL, 2200 for one of the most overhyped cameras since BMPCC hit the scene. And we still get moire This is a massive dealbreaker. Thanks for sharing
not gonna lie the more I find it in my image the more annoying it gets
What is this Footage?? 1080p highspeed? (it looks like). in 4K60p Mode it is 1:1 Readout in APS-C Size, 1:1 Readout is often a cause for that. In 4K30 FullSensor Oversampling Readout maybe shouldn't have it?.. Only Workaround (without huge Sacrifice) is turning on digi. Stabilisation, that should help.
If you want to work freely without even thinking about Morie for the long Future, you need to consider to switch in the Fuji System with an X-Trans Sensor (X-H2, X-H2S, X-T5, X-T4, X-T3 etc.). The only Brand using a different Readout Pattern where a Low-pass Filter isn't needed and you will never see Morie at full sharpness.
to answer your question the building footage with the moire was at 1080p 60fps. the test shots were also 1080. I forget what fps it was. not gonna lie I need to learn like half of the things you said haha. like the oversampling/ and readout. feel free to explain it like i'm five for me and others haha🫡
@@AaronArao oh sorry for that:) maybe some basics will help, you don’t need to know deep details.
It’s not about sensor size, let’s say that all sensors have 24 megapixels. (6K - 6 thousand horizontal lines). It is necessary to know how much of the sensor the camera uses in a specific video mode. Some cameras already lose quality at 60 FPS, the most begin losing at 120 FPS, because of more data per second they are reading less pixels of the sensor. At 4K resolution, all 6K pixels will be read out and down scaled to 4K, this is called oversampling, the ideal case.
Much more difficult is to explain the side effects of sensors with Baier pattern readout. There you have always aliaising Effects at a 1:1 read out for example. To minimize that, manufactures using low cut filters in front of the sensor, with the cost of sharpness.
Especially in 1080p, it is important to learn how the camera is doing it. The cheapest and worst way is line skipping which results in an unsharp image.( could be the case in your video)
So at first you make a test at 4K30p with your S5II, to see if the camera produces Morie in its best mode. Try to learn about the things/words I have used on other videos on UA-cam or Google;) To see how cameras/sensors behave, you can also visit the German website slashcam . de (type the camera model in the search on the left side)
Fuji cameras are using a different mosaic pattern, more randomly, unable to produce morie. Keep that back in your mind if you experience Problems with your work or if you get unhappy with the situation
Bye;)
@@AaronArao in 1080p, the camera always uses line-skipping except in pixel-for-pixel mode. It's this line-skipping causing this moire effect. Always shoot video in 4k or higher and you'll be fine. Downscale in post if you need to.
For stills taken from a tripod of stationary subjects, using the high-res mode will completely eliminate any moire in stills.
Please stop spreading blatant misinformation. If the solution to moire was as simple as that, majority of cinema cameras won't be using bayer sensors. And monochrome sensors, which don't even have a colour filter array,, also experience moire,, but without the false colour. Moire is due to similarity in spatial frequency of the on sensor image and pixels on the sensor. To put it simply, if there is a pattern that is so detailed and sharp that it is out resolving your sensor, you'll encounter moire.
@@Wildridefilms show me a Fuji X-Trans Image with Moire, you will not find one. You can see that on all DPReview Studio Comparison shots. The X-Trans Pattern have this advantage, believe it or not
funny to see a whole new gen of noobs not realizing: Cameras actually had OLPF at first, and the OEMs got rid of them because of endless complaining about resolution problems. Because pros knew that moire (that happens sometimes) can be removed in post (by performing a digital OLPF), but loss of res (that happens every time) can never be restored in post (because the information was irrevocably discarded).
can you explain more about the digital OLPF for us noobs? 🫡
I put my S5ii for sale after I watched this.
Bla bla bla. Sonyboy