I don't know much about engines, but I know a lot about logic and reason, and this was calm, logical, reasoned - forensic even. To me, the one thing that stood out was the fact that the pump, as installed, was 180 degrees "out of phase" (my term - as I said, I am not an engine expert) and thus keyed off of a different cylinder than normal. Any time you have something that's not normal, and you compensate by doing something else that's not normal - to me that's always a risk because you think you've entirely compensated, but perhaps there's some unspoken assumption in how the normal component works that you overlooked/didn't know about. Also, even if it works, it's basically a trap waiting to be sprung later on, if you (or someone else) works on the engine and forgets or doesn't know about these compensating abnormalities. So, it may have nothing to do with what caused the problem on this engine, but I would still say it's undesirable and it's good that the pump is being rebuilt to normal specs - it eliminates a possible future failure mode.
I love when people troubleshoot the right way. Fixing the symptoms is easy enough, but finding the root cause is absolutely critical and it's exactly what you guys are doing. 10/10.
I hear you. I watched a truck get 3 instrument clusters get put in over a year and a half time, not once did they question why it was happening. Just treat the symptom.
Yes! It’s so refreshing to see diagnostics being done without dogma and ego. Any time I hear a technician say “I do it this way because it’s the way I’ve always done it” or “it’s the way I was taught” and they can’t explain the “why” is a well thought out, concise manner, I look for another technician. The world needs more JAMSI’s and Eric O’s.
Hello from Newfoundland Canada. Im a retired Heavy Equipment mechanic and I also do some machining. Watched this video, with great interest. many years ago I done an inframe on a DT466 in an International truck. Within 50 miles of engine use, it was starting to seize, let the engine rest then it would restart and when at temp begin to stick. Got the truck back and removed the head and base. It took a bit of head scratching before the problem was seen. The problem was fuel related. #5 piston spray pattern was way out of sorts. Apparently when the injectors were redone at the fuel shop, there was an incorrect part put in that injector, as they say! Reassembled the engine, it wore the truck out. As for Oring lube on the liners, I always used liquid dish detergent, such as Sunlight brand. Dish soap was always considered a trade off. Some orings were not oil friendly, while the one next to it could be oil friendly. Soap was always a sure bet.
It was absolutely amazing and incredibly humbling to hear your dad talk about 'Hey, you may have been doing it wrong for 40 years' and willing to learn... we need more of that in this world.
You might want to add some Fleetguard DCA4 to the cooling system it forms a film on the liner that slows down cavitation erosion on the liners and look at using a remote deaeriation tank / fill to the cooling system to purge intrained air out of the system.
I agree with Jim, I do repairs that are more technical today and stand back and say: What if, and question everything. There’s a lot of variables in running an engine. I know one thing, when my Jaguar needs rebuilding, I’m crating her up and sending it down I80. Thank you for your wonderful and informed video’s.
30 years as a diesel tech, those pistons are definitely damaged from timing advance. I've been in your shoe's on an inframe case 540 engine. The pump was rebuilt at the same time and set up wrong. I had to do the job again as a come back at 22.7 hours, spent 2 weeks trying to figure out what I did wrong. Sent the pump out and found out it was wayyyy advanced. You guys are on the right track get the pump right and put it back together.
My dad is in the business of rebuilding injectors/injector pumps and i did it as well for a couple of years and have seen this exact problem caused by injection timing being to advanced so i would say that this is 100% the issue
This may be my favorite JAMSI video yet. Having your proud work blow up in your own face is never fun, but the clarity of thought and exposition in this postmortem is just incredible. I think a lot of scientists, engineers, and technologists could benefit to watch this video. Bravo.
I love how you guys very gently told all the internet experts to bug off.. keep on truckin and get that tractor back to work!!! good work and good luck!
I work on complex cloud based IT systems and I have found when it comes to root cause, it’s usually something simple or a few simple things failing together. Love the parallels
@@captaintoyota3171 those happy little accidents that turn into a caterpillar telehandler sitting on top of some schmucks car after falling from the top of a building under construction are just the "best."
Man, you guys really do an excellent job. It's hard in this day and age to put it lightly. Like you said no hard feelings with the injection pump shop but that's extremely unfortunate you lost that information because I am right on board with you. The pump is to blame here. Unfortunately it's like this with everything. I'm a heavy equipment mechanic and I cannot get any other shop local to me to help me anymore than I can help myself. You guys went through it with your crane and your doors and your new shop. There are just not many people out there right now that are really willing to take the extra time and do failure analysis and go the extra mile, and it's really hard not to get discouraged dealing with it.
definitely that technician was not to blame, but that is also what i kind of do not like about huge shops that work by that system: you talk to sales person that absolutely does not know about anything how it works, he is barely payed enough, and is not actually taught was processes go on in the workshop, or wherever, and all he has to do is fill by writing a form from what HE got and understood from the customer, then the technician has to interpret that kind of maybe misleading form, and he has no connection to the customer except through in turn filling a form and sending it to the proper person that in turn will call the customer...had they been in direct contact, and the technician did not have so much work to do BEFORE getting to their pump, so that they could be around/still available to quickly talk, they would have had a greater result. and i am not attacking that shop in particular at all, as i said, i hate that system in general,be it in other shops of the same type, or huge chain mechanic shops, and you see a lot of those videos about mechanics working there deciphering what the salesperson scribbled, that is by no means enough text, like there some times are less than 60 words, really? a normal conversation with the customer had it happened, excluding the non important part of small talk, would easily be past 1000 words, plus, the mechanic can easily ask questions directly for clarification, ... well, at that scale, it might be a more time efficient way maybe for those big shops, but it is definitely not the better,
What you and your dad are doing for the farming community who do their own mechanic work is greatly appreciated!! Your build series has been AMAZING! The diagnostic and troubleshooting information about why this failure occurred is top notch! ! I watched all your videos on the Allison.. keep up the good work!!
@Cheepchipsable Apparently you’re not educated enough to understand the comment, There has been major legal battles over the right to repair within the farming industry as well as others!
This is how troubleshooting is done in order to find the root cause. Lots of symptoms to pick through but doing it right takes time and skill. Well done, fellas.
Having been involved in performing root cause analysis for big engineering problems, I can say that you two have covered this about as thoroughly as possible, so well done for that! It's also just amazing to listen to two experts in their field discuss the problem and work through it. My background is electrical, so while I have a working understanding of engines and machining, this stuff definitely isn't in my wheelhouse. But you two make it all very accessible, and I understood 99% of what you discussed. Keep up the great work!
I would be checking the spray pattern of your injectors. On those early engines fuel injection started as early as 40 degrees BTDC. It does not start to burn until the crank is less than 5 degrees BTDC as the compression is not high enough. A bad injector that sprays fuel to wide can wash the oil off the cylinder walls causing high wear,scoring and extra heat!
It fires off almost instantly otherwise you'd see heaps of smoke due to non atomized fuel. Timing for a low rpm DI engine is generally between 15-25⁰ btdc, they don't need 30+. The burn is high on the bowl but are they the same diameter bowls as stock? That might be where the problem lies as the nozzles weren't replaced according to the earlier vid
@@dadsgarage738 usually it's only the orifice size or number of holes that will change but if they ran a larger dia bowl on a turbo version they'd likely have a wider spray angle to suit
Blown away by this walk through on diagnosis. Thanks for taking the time to make this. So many different ways to do build. If your not learning you aren't building/breaking! Keep up the great work
This makes me even more comfortable to bring you my 5.3 truck motor in a year or so for a rebuild. Nice to see the thought process all laid out here, and the obvious honesty. Thanks.
Great tutorial. All of us more "mature" fellows are always learning. I applaud that observation. So much has changed and developed over the decades. This is a fun and enlightening video. I am truly impressed how you two work so well together. A great team. Be good. Stay safe. Wishing you a deluxe day!
This is why this channel is amazing , being so transparent about the problems u run into. Good luck on your engine build I'm confident it'll be right this time!!
So here I am sitting in my chair watching, learning and listening to how a engine work's. How it's made what is what and why. I'm a chef so my speciality is the kitchen. However what I appreciate the most is the step by step ruling out what's wrong and why. Thank you for your time and efforts to make this wonderful Video.
I think you guys are on the right track. Years ago, building IH 361-407 engines, we ran into issues just like you guys are having. We would try to build them on the tighter side of spec. It took along time to figure out that it was the injection pump causing the issue. After taking to many people one guy asked if the injector spray pattern was high on the combustion bowl, which it was. Pump wasn't advancing like it was supposed to and the injectors were spraying across the top of the pistons. Ever since then we have the pumps done by a good diesel shop and haven't had issues since. For the sleeves and pistons coming assembled I was told by a Reliance rep that they are done like that for shipping and should be taken apart cleaned and inspected.
Even using Detroit Diesel factory parts in a 12V71 the rule was take everything and clean it. And in my case, I also soaked the pistons in oil before installing them. Results were that we ran them for 14,000 hours before I left and they were still running like new. Never worked on an A-C Diesel but have on IH, JD, Cummins, DD, FM, Bedford, Nordberg, Ford, and others over the last 50 years. When working on the engines everything was set to the minimum specs possible for increased life and by the books. Seeing coolant on the top of the head on this engine that is clean says there is another problem. If the coolant is there from a bad bottom O-ring, it should be found in the oil also. That wasn't the case. This looks more like there was a head bolt that had a leak around it and the coolant got to the top of the head climbing the bolt. What sealant was used on the head bolts when the engine was assembled? Was the engine run and then checked after a couple hours to see if everything was still in spec as far as tightness? Diesel fuel is far less likely to cause scoring than water/coolant in a cylinder as Diesel fuel is a lubricant. Did anyone use Ether when first starting the engine?
@@gravelydon7072 I'm no diesel guy but I was wondering about diesel washing down a cylinder since it lubricates. Gasoline is a solvent so it washes down cylinders but diesel seems like it would be much easier on cylinder walls. Do they tell you to check the ring gap after the sleeves are installed? Kinda looked like they checked them before they were installed in the block.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 With the Detroits and all the others I worked on the gaps were checked with the liners/sleeves installed. There is a bit of dimensional change due to the pressure on them from a block. You also have to do it with the rings in a couple of places as the bores of a sleeve can change shape a little. Detroits had little pressure on them so not all that big a problem for them.
I just love the way you work. Talking and finding the problem from start to end. I am from Poland and for me is awesome to look how real technik experts works. Can't wait next video.
Excellent video guys. My knowledge says timing was to advanced by burn spots on pistons. That alone would have concentrated heat in those areas. If it would have sprayed in a little later it would have made more swirl out the fuel with the piston bowl and more evenly disturbed the heat. Don't gap rings more than spec it will just make a oil burner for life. Another thing I would check and I may be wrong as I have never worked on a Allis, is injection lines diameter. If any were replaced and possibly a smaller diameter, causing even more advanced injection. I learned this the hard way on a rough running IH DT436 had a couple of after market lines in stalled that were smaller causing earlier injection on those cylinders. Make certain by pump shop that vop. and injector spray tip angle are correct. If you can source a diesel timing light I highly recommend it. I find these pumps off a lot now days just from being rebuilt multiple times. For cooling systems I install coolant filters on every thing I rebuild, it not only keeps system clean but adds additives to protect liners. Keep up the clean professional work guys!
I had that issue with an XN6 Peugeot, gas, the 4 lines were tuned for each cylinder, and thus numbered, if out of sequence, would miss noticeably. I don't think the factory service manual clarified this issue either.
I agree with timing. By the look of that piston your spray was out of the bowl. I destroyed a Cummins BT6 marine engine by early injection and the top of the piston looked very familiar.
Interesting. I find this series to be the best so far. I highly enjoy the process of having a problem and having to go through the sequence of ruling out any potential issues to find the answer. Once you got the tip on the injection pattern on the piston, then you read that article that said exactly what your issues were, it was like finding a hidden puzzle piece. Really cool.
Definitely get your injectors rechecked as well. Worked at an ag shop the last 3 years and we have had issues with some of our rebuilt injectors coming back not right from the injector shop. We put a rebuilt set in a fresh rebuilt engine with a fresh pump and it was not running correct from the get go. Through diagnostics we were narrowed it down to injectors or pump. Pulled injectors and they were not right. Pressures were off and spray pattern was not great. Had a couple other sets not check out right even though they were rebuilt. We now double check every set of injectors before putting them in and if not correct send them back. With that spray pattern shown on the piston I would definitely be rechecking those.
This shows a LOT of your integrity with this video. It shows that you ARE reading comments from your viewers and have a SINCERE and genuine interest in getting to the bottom of the issue that has occurred so as to not repeat it. That old tractor has probably NEVER gotten this much love nd attention from an owner in its life. I will say that I do agree with the diagnosis of the ring gap being too little, but with the injection timing issue at hand as the evidence is showing you on that one particular cylinder, I am not conviinced that even had the gap been opened up more that you would not have had the same occurrence. I will say this, when you go to reassemble this engine, i think it would be safe to go ahead and open that ring gap up to the at least the upper 50% of the ring gap refernced in the manual. That may result in a marginally higher fuel usage, but may not if it survives more than 2 hours an actually gets a GOOD solid break in time completed. I do want to thank you for bringing all of us along on this journey and for you honest and candid comments and opinions. If this is finding you after it is all back together and running strong, sorry I am late!! have a safe and great rest of your summer!
Hi guys. Something to consider. The original Cummins B engines in the Doge pickup would seize/score the #6 and some times the #5 pistons if the coolant was lost. Also aluminum pistons. The most damage in your engine is to the rear 5 & 6 cylinders I would be looking at the water pump/cooling system. Disassemble the water pump and check the impeller and the impeller to volute clearances. Make sure the impeller did not slip on the shaft. I have received Allis water pumps that were not assembles properly. Once reassembled check cooling system pressure. Cummins 855 is 30 psi. I would not expect that for your engine but it gives you and idea of what should be there. Put a gauge in the block coolant drain port. The damage to the liner O-rings is normal with a seized piston failure. I do not see anything wrong with your O-rings or how you installed them. Using the wrong lub to install will show up in the long term not in a new engine. The o-rings will usual come out swelled if the lub was wrong or engine oil in the coolant. The rust on the liners is normal but you should be using the red diesel antifreeze. The diesel antifreeze has SCA additive to protect the cylinder liners from rust and the issues caused by cavitation erosion. The diesel antifreeze did not exist until the 80s. As far as a fuel issues once the pump is done check the injectors for proper tips/spray patterns. Check injector protrusion. Make sure the injectors are the correct for the engine. Lots of problems with pickup truck diesels and hotrodders change to a different injector. Advanced timing is an issue with aircraft ground equipment using jet fuel and cylinder temps but usually damages all of the cylinders. 50 years with diesels let me know if I can help. Mike mverdow@verizon.net
I understand that in rebuild kits like that, that the pistons rings and sleeves are a matched set, if mixed they will have different tolerances and could also be a factor, not the direct cause of the failure.
Your dealing with a kit,, any kit in any form needs a thourough insp per spec and tolerance. The block needs the same attention so as the head,, plane&square,,sleeves also per manufacture spec wether raised seal or flush per gasket seal,, well done tear-down insp // 52yrs exp
One correction, the color of the antifreeze means nothing, the composition means everything. Several manufacturers have color coded coolant that can be yellow, pink, orange, red, or green. These colors don't crossover to every manufacturer. The key is make sure you are using the right coolant not the right color. I work on diesel heavy equipment and we use a bulk green diesel antifreeze in 55 gallon drums from our supplier.
@@rrpeters Indeed, my family learned about color coded antifreeze the hard way back in 1999. Honda and Mitsubishi had green antifreeze back then. However, using the green stuff that you could find at the auto parts stores would destroy the water pumps. Honda and Mitsubishi used non-silicate antifreeze, but the green stuff in auto part stores was silicate based coolant. The result meant destroying water pumps. I then made sure if I wasn't using OEM coolant, I was getting something with OEM equivalent chemistry. Pentofrost and Zerex sell that sort of thing.
I realize there is no turbo, but maybe fit a pyrometer in that exhaust to monitor the temp next go around. Never can have too much data Good work guys, love watching your stuff!
@@roballan4944 It's a diesel there is no such thing as running lean. Diesel RPM and power is controlled by fuel flow, not fuel and air like in a gasoline engine. Less fuel, lower rpm there is no lean, just over fueling. The air volume ingested is constant and only changes with engine RPM and boost pressure.
Great autopsy guys, i had a similar failure on 2.5Ltr Land Rover engine years ago, never got to the bottom of it but i was convinced the injection pump i had overhauled at the time of the engine rebuild was the cause...While your going to the trouble of having the injection pump rebuilt have the injectors double checked too...Get the specialist to confirm the nozzle numbers are 100% correct for that engine/fuel system as there's 100's if not 1000's of different types of nozzles and they all have different characteristics such as spray pattern, angle, number of orifices, crack off pressure etc etc....
As a 30 year Diesel Mechanic it's great to see how you've systematically gone through each step in diagnosing your problem. Wish I could have helped you out a year ago, but it's a good learning experience. It's helpful for people to understand that diesel injectors act more like a burning torch than they do an explosion that happens all at once. Newer diesel injectors of the pizo common rail type will send multi small injection events during the firing cycle for better combustion and quiter idle as well as fire on the exhaust stroke for down stream after treatment. The reason for them not all becoming what we in the diesel field call "sticking a piston" is because of how the coolant flows in the system.
I can turn a wrench, my first rebuild happened 50 years ago, but diagnostics is the bane of my existence. Thanks for the tour of thought that will likely help me in the future. After seeing your conclusion, I scrolled back to see all five pistons side by side. The question I have is if the injector timing is off, shouldn't all 5 pistons, or at least the 3 not destroyed, show the same overspray on the top of the piston? Otherwise, your observation that the rear two pistons run hotter suggests that the temperature difference between the front and rear of the engine was severe, or the temperature tolerance is minimal. Just a thought from a guy who still has much to learn.
If the one cylinder is showing the early injection...I'd think all would be if it were how the pump was built maybe out of time. If the pump is injecting each at the same time...but some are spraying at different times then you have an injector issue most likely. They can test fine on a static tester but be different under heavy load and might be happening here.
If you time it 180 out and run the engine 4 cylinders are in time perfect 2 are out of time by a small margin but that will cause your problem Lean is hot Love the content
I am a bobcat mechanic in Australia and still I believe that diesels can be really hard to troubleshoot i have had injectors that have started knocking i have had owners who simply don't have the time I have changed injectors and even had times where we have put liners in the freezer and heated a block overnight to change one piston and liner but you guys are giving a really great example of what to and not to do.
I love that y’all showed all possible issues and had a explanation for why they weren’t the problem. Also respect to y’all for showing all your mistakes, a lot of people wouldn’t show this bc it might make them “look bad”
You both have been pretty darn thorough in your diagnosis and thanks for sharing. The pump spray pattern that you showed and discussed sure sounds like the smoking gun. I certainly don't have any doubts about your initial assembly nor would I even question it.
Allis-Chalmers was a huge employer in my town of Laporte, IN . Chalmers bought out the old Advance-Rumely Corp. in 1931. Rumely built steam tractors and later the Oil-Pull tractors. Chalmers had a few thousand employees in Laporte at one time. Around 1980 they closed the plant.
If y’all need old Allis Chalmers parts, look up Robert Borneman out of Edson, Kansas. My uncle passed on and he inherited hundreds of AC combines and tractors. Thank y’all for the awesome videos!
And I also love how you guys aren't afraid to ask questions and aren't afraid to question your own work that definitely show his pride that is very rarely seen from people now and days
Excellent videos. Having skill and experience doesn't automatically make one an expert (like so many self proclaimed experts on the internet). Humility is truly on display as well as the desire for continued growth. Kudos to you both. Thank you for letting us share your journey.
Im in construction and ANYONE who comes in bragging about exp and what theyve done is immediatly suspect. True pros dont brag or say they are experts they just do the job and face every challenge as it comes
Great diagnostic video. I’m sure any tech with years of experience can relate to a failure which leaves you scratching your head. Not to mention the paranoia that sets in when you fire that engine the 2nd time around. I have been there and you never forget. What did come to mind was EGT sensors on the manifold runners or shooting them with a FLIR or infrared gun.
Count your Blessings young man every single day that you still have your great dad here on earth. Reminds me of my relationship with my dad. We also rebuilt engines (our own) And worked together .... your Blessed
You guy's are following factory specs and vendor recommendations plus your own knowledge when it's all back together and fired that first day will one to talk about. The fact your giving this effort is all anyone could ask. Excellent coverage.
Great analysis guys! One thing that I didnt hear mention of, but you may have already addressed; have you pop tested the injection nozzles? If they are all too low out of spec, that will cause the same issue of early injection that an advanced pump will. Not sure if you sent them with the pump to your fuel shop, but definitely have them checked! I like running them at the top of spec, usually around 3200 psi for Bosch style nozzles. You get a crisp snap and better pattern. Just a thought!👍🏼
You explaining how the spray pattern shows the piston still being too low finally helped me understand how that means the timing could be too advanced. Also, I'm not a diesel specialist by any means but I do know there are modern HD coolant formulations out there that might really help you with corrosion and cavitation. It's a bummer that the first build didn't work out, but hey at least it made for some good video content!
Indeed, this is why I am glad there is Shell Rotella brand coolant that is additized for these old diesels. Shell Rotella is a very popular oil brand for big diesels, and having a great antifreeze brand is also great.
I have rebuilt a number of different engines over the years, but by no means do I have all the answers. You guys are very thorough in your diagnosis. What I have observed over the years in most engine failures is injector failure on one or cylinders. It seems that's the fastest way to ventilate pistons or break rings. As far as I can tell, you gentlemen are on the right track.
I did not read all the comments but I would suggest checking the key on the camshaft drive gear . This totally changes cam timing and pump timing . Easy to check when your down that far . This could happen from enginge kickback if some eithered it too much . These engines are critical to not using alot of starting fluid. Also make sure your sleve counter bore is correct . Good luck to you you are sure doing your homework. When I build a tractor engine of that size I stick with .025 to .035 on the top compression rings as far as I know with no failures . Just remember you can't always trust new part quality! I overhauled my C-15 Caterpillar truck engine putting on a brand new Cat head ( yes new not rebuilt ) in no time it was pushing pressure in the radiator . New head was cracked . A friend who is a Cat mechanic informed me he sends the to a machine shop to get pressure tested before he installs them and has found several cracked right out of the box . Take care and hang in there
Chalmers engines never ran any oil pressure any ways. The joke at home was you could blow in the gauge and make it read. Glad you guys are systematically troubleshooting. I had a reliance kit for a 301 allis that did this same thing and reliance claimed it was the O-ring lube I used was incorrect which caused them to swell tight to the pistons when running. I have since only used John Deere cylinder soap and had no more issues.
I have almost no knowledge of engines and tuning, but this is fantastic to watch. I work in molecular biology and our experiments and equipment need diagnosing all the time, and it's great to see y'all working through this smart and educated- that's what always works for me and I love it. Learned a lot of interesting things about engines and I've got a list of interesting engine concepts to Google, so I'm leaving a happy camper 👍
First of all - thanks to both of you for your thorough and open analysis. I’m no expert, but I have spent lots of money on Diesel engines assuming that the fuel injection system is ok, only to end up rebuilding/replacing the pump and injectors. While not a smoking gun, the video of your initials cold start aligns with a fuel system issue. I wouldn’t have said based on that video alone you have a fuel issue, but reviewing the video after the play definitely shows something may be wrong
The coolant thing might be due to the chemical makeup of it. I usually suggest heavy duty diesel coolant that typically isn’t green. Different additives that help against electrolysis when not running.
There is electrolysis and then there is cavitation. I agree I’d use a Diesel Rated Nitrate mix … just like the older engines that didn’t have aluminum parts.
Really enjoyed the video and your thorough breakdown. I grew up on a farm, but am now a Neurosurgeon, watching this during a lull in the day. But this takes me back to tearing into a tractor ourselves. Thanks for the way you discussed the potential issues and why you ruled them out.
Upon getting it back together, a test that I would be comfortable with performing to see if you have injectors firing incorrectly under pressure, load the engine off the pto, run it up to rpm , use a heat gun on the exhaust manifold to check your individual egt’s, if they don’t match close something isn’t right
I love your video's. I have never been a mechanic other then water pump replacement, starter replacement, etc, the easy things. You are a smart man, the more we learn we should realize how little we really do know. If you go to any education and come out "knowing everything" your training has failed. Keep up these great you tube videos.
Looks to me like you are on the right track with pump timing. Hopefully, the guys working on rebuilding it can find something definitive to remove some of the doubt and second guessing. It’s always nerve racking when a problem occurs and are unable to pin down exactly what the cause is. I wish you well and hope things turn out. I look forward to see Allis up and running soon.
I use silicone grease on C-15 cat engines for the lower counter bore and the top band needs to be soaked in engine oil prior to liner install so it'll swell once installed. There's several ways people do it but that's what I do and so far so good.
I need more thumbs to put up on this video!! This is the kind of stuff I just love to watch. Soooo much knowledge being shared by a seasoned machinist. I hate that this happened to him and his tractor but I hope it is perfect after this.
I think y'all are on the right track with the fuel timing. Y'all have the right attitude for looking for the original problem and moving forward. Thank you for the great videos.
The great part why I would trust you as a machinist is because of the troubleshooting and admitting when you are stumped and asking for advice from others. Happens to everyone at some point. Get your best guess and try it again. I like the cleaning guy, he said after all these years, he's still learning. That's what makes a wise man wise.
Damn my new favorite American UA-cam channel just like diesel creek and powernation 🇺🇸 🦅 Love your videos and the cleaning guy 😂 Greets from Germany 🇩🇪
Big fan of the channel! I've followed your Allis story from rebuild, so have been very interested in understanding what went wrong. Thanks for the detailed review of the teardown. Very interesting observation of the injection spray pattern. Not familiar with how the pump advance works, but I would expect the advance to be wrong for all cylinders? My concern is what appears to be very gradational damage from 1 to 6. Makes me think coolant temp at the back of the block had some contribution to the problem. Have you had a look at the water pump impeller?
100% agree with the diagnosis, I was going to comment this, on the first video, but you had already pinned it. I'm sorry for your loss, its never nice to pull down your own work, but at least you know it was not your workmanship that caused it. From someone that's been doing it for only 30 years, I love your videos because you do things 100% the way I would, and I'm considered fussy. Its also made for some extremely interesting videos, that continue to showcase your high standards. You were recently " reviewed " by Barum engines here in the UK. just so you know, I consider you far above them, and the father and son story and dynamic is an added treat. 👌 don't change a thing 😍
I enjoy watching both BARUM and JAMSI as both do interesting work. I consider BARUM’s work to be of high quality given their constraint of using ageing machines - i.e. not every shop can afford to invest in very expensive new machines. I suspect that BARUM’s specialist on cranks (I think his name is John) does not wish to be featured on UA-cam, so there is no crankshaft grinding work shown on their videos. I consider the comment provided by @SAMRODIAM to be wrong and mischievous.
I'm a senior IT guy by trade and a hardcore DIY'er at home, and have built a strong reputation for troubleshooting, even on systems I don't know much about. I'm no expert on engine machining, piston sleeves, what flavor of vegetable oil tastes the best with sauteed O-rings, etc, but from my perspective as a jack of all trades and roving troubleshooter, this series strikes me as an EXTREMELY thorough analysis of what could have gone wrong. You analyzed every possible component and actively questioned whether you could have done something wrong - not letting pride get in the way of objective truth - and methodically proved that you had not. GREAT job on the analysis, and I'll bet at least a shiny nickel the problem was that pump being out of time.
I would definitely be wondering about the reliability of first rebuild on that injection pump especially if it was built 180 out, and I believe I saw some comments on the last video about those having some issues.
I respect that you're doing a teardown and diagnosis on the failed engine that YOU rebuilt yourself. I could see some people who would never bring that up and open themselves up to criticism from "armchair mechanics".
I’ve worked for Cummins Engine all my life. They used engine oil when assembling the old NH , N-14 and the new B and C engines. As a Journeyman Industrial machine repairman. The black O rings are good for oil . The viton O rings are good for hydraulic and synthetic coolants 👍
I am a retired Cat mechanic, love your brake down! Since you gone this far, when put it back to gather, put the liners in and measure to see if the o-rings are correctly installed and not rolled by measuring with the liner bore gauge for tapper! Had an apprentice put a liner in with out cleaning the lower bore tapper where o-ring go and twisted the o-rings, had him measure the liner bore and it had decreased in size by .004 thousands, made him pull liners and cleaned the lower bores and chamfer, had him put new seals on and reinstall, there was no size difference from top to bottom on the liner! You can make a liner smaller by twisting the o-ring! Also put piston rings one at a time in liner to check end gap, you are checking everything so why not for show and tell, and to prove you have the right gap! Cat has a tool we put in the injection line and a timing probe in the flywheel that lets us get the injection timing, so if it is off we can change it!
Thanks for the in depth "autopsy". As I watched, you examined every possibility I thought of (and others I didn't). FWIW I agree with your determination of injection pump config/advanced timing. It will be exciting to see it running properly. 👍
I would agree with your line of thought. I have spent most of my career overhauling large engines and compressors in the Gas industry. Just a couple thoughts: Put the orings on the liner clean and dry. Using a long slim rod or screw driver between the liner and orings, spin the rod around the circumference of the liner to ensure the orings are lying true with no twist, be careful when u remove the rod as to not induce twist. Lightly lubricate the liner bore of the block and a bit on the orings themselves And install them immediately once lubricated. Don’t force them in just a steady even push and let them find their way home. A quick check with your bore gauge will ensure no rolled or pinched orings. Install pistons afterwards. Could another possible issue be cheap quality of materials used ? Unfortunately that seems to be a growing issue. Even parts that are supposed to be “the good stuff”, Ive noticed wear out faster than they used to. One example I’ve recently heard was timing set from a good name brand, failed in very short order due to poor quality materials. Anyway, I think your definitely on the right trail, good luck.
When you showed the cylinder walls I was thinking fuel issues of some sort whether it be washing or combustion temps. I know that the fuel spray has to be confined to a small hollowed out area in the top of the piston or into a precombustion chamber or energy cell. Any fuel that touches the cylinder walls is bad news. I worked for an injection pump rebuilder years ago and it was up to me to remove the old timing mark from the ring in the timing window of the Rosa Master and put a new mark on that ring using air pressure in the #1 port in the pump to locate where the new timing mark had to be. We just used an electric engraver to do that. Great video, it brings me back four plus decades.
Think you are spot on in your diagnosis. Fuel timing and ring clearance. 5 & 6 smoked first due to there position in the block. Have had a similar issue on a cummins 6bt. Didn't fail as bad as your engine but very similar damage. The fact your pump came back from the fuel shop 180 out says it a lot about that man's work. Don't forget to change your injector tips as they have had a scalding too.
Very interesting! I have been working through a very similar situation on a Chrysler 230 flat head. My hypothesis is the valve lifter adjustment was to tight. When the engine was working hard, the valves would lengthen and take out the lifter clearance and no longer seal. Exhaust gases would leak into the intake manifold causing a lean very hot fuel mixture resulting in excess piston and ring expansion. This all seems a bit crazy, but I’m 95% sure this was the issue. Love the video. Take Care
I've got a few years of wrenching under my belt but I'm no expert on everything but I honestly think you guys are right about the injection timing being the cause of the failure
If you’ve sent the injection pump out, don’t forget the injector nozzles. Make sure the pressures that the nozzles pop off at are in spec and that they all match.
When our JD 4010 was new, it smoked like a freight train. 3 overhauls later, grandpa had the injection pump rebuilt. Sun prairie pumps in Wisconsin found it had a scored metering valve from the factory. It was washing the cylinders down. They were told to use dish soap on the orings. When I'm working on cat engines, I use dish soap on orings for cooling system and grease on orings for oil system. The orings for the coolant will swell with oil and grease and cause failure. So I agree, whatever the manufacturer suggests using is what to use. Good luck and I hope that you are correct when thinking it is injection timing.
I had a Cat C15 twin turbo Acert engine rebuilt with a Cat Platinum kit in a 2005 Western Star. Within 6 months, it was puking oil into the turbo. Within two years, oil consumption had increased to about 2-3 gallons a day. Blowby pressure was high and messy. It blowed out two front seals. A short time later, the engine siezed coming down I-85. The crank welded to the block. Another engine had to be installed. It lasted about two years until a rebuild...well over 1,000,000 miles on it. It's running strong with no oil consumption.
The only time I had a problem like yours was a 4430 John deer. I built that engine 3 times with the same results! I finally went to the local dealer and talk to the shop forman and knew the tractor! He said the problem was real simple, it was 120hp tractor turned up to 165hp and no break in time!
As an engine builder myself I can see the depth of knowledge here and empathize with your frustration. Seems there's a thousand things that can go wrong that you shouldn't really have to check. May I throw one more in ...I've had problems with replacement water pumps with cheep stamped steel impellers replacing the O.E cast iron contoured originals. the rear cylinders do often run hotter / may be enough to start the dominoes falling. I think from memory in the GM71 series workshop manuls there was a spec' for water pump pressure at idle. Shame the injector pump is not a smoking gun. I'm sure you guy will track it down.
Thanks fellas excellent series. The problem with todays service centers is parts replacers. The lack of correlation between the the symptoms, evidence and measured values and stuffing a part in is what is missing. Its why i do all my own work.
Make sure you take a look at the entire playlist, to get the back story on this engine! ua-cam.com/play/PLgKs8wgBcfDy8zKYeeW4iacMRxi3I1PUH.html
Definitely a crotch hat problem, Dad might need to order a few extra, just in case. lol
Have the radiator rodded out and change the thermostat
I don't know much about engines, but I know a lot about logic and reason, and this was calm, logical, reasoned - forensic even. To me, the one thing that stood out was the fact that the pump, as installed, was 180 degrees "out of phase" (my term - as I said, I am not an engine expert) and thus keyed off of a different cylinder than normal.
Any time you have something that's not normal, and you compensate by doing something else that's not normal - to me that's always a risk because you think you've entirely compensated, but perhaps there's some unspoken assumption in how the normal component works that you overlooked/didn't know about. Also, even if it works, it's basically a trap waiting to be sprung later on, if you (or someone else) works on the engine and forgets or doesn't know about these compensating abnormalities.
So, it may have nothing to do with what caused the problem on this engine, but I would still say it's undesirable and it's good that the pump is being rebuilt to normal specs - it eliminates a possible future failure mode.
You need a good set of gauges ( coolant and oil pressure). Like this comment to help with the algorithm to Help with the rebuild.
I do not machine anything. I do not like useless banter. THANK YOU for speaking when it is relevant and adding good, solid information to the video!
I love when people troubleshoot the right way. Fixing the symptoms is easy enough, but finding the root cause is absolutely critical and it's exactly what you guys are doing. 10/10.
Step one: go back to the last "repair " that got done. 😁
It could have been bad parts I had 7out of 8 spark t bad
Have had bad parts. In a cat 3406 where pistons. Blew out under the compression rings
I hear you. I watched a truck get 3 instrument clusters get put in over a year and a half time, not once did they question why it was happening. Just treat the symptom.
Yes! It’s so refreshing to see diagnostics being done without dogma and ego. Any time I hear a technician say “I do it this way because it’s the way I’ve always done it” or “it’s the way I was taught” and they can’t explain the “why” is a well thought out, concise manner, I look for another technician. The world needs more JAMSI’s and Eric O’s.
Hello from Newfoundland Canada. Im a retired Heavy Equipment mechanic and I also do some machining. Watched this video, with great interest. many years ago I done an inframe on a DT466 in an International truck. Within 50 miles of engine use, it was starting to seize, let the engine rest then it would restart and when at temp begin to stick. Got the truck back and removed the head and base. It took a bit of head scratching before the problem was seen. The problem was fuel related. #5 piston spray pattern was way out of sorts. Apparently when the injectors were redone at the fuel shop, there was an incorrect part put in that injector, as they say! Reassembled the engine, it wore the truck out.
As for Oring lube on the liners, I always used liquid dish detergent, such as Sunlight brand. Dish soap was always considered a trade off. Some orings were not oil friendly, while the one next to it could be oil friendly. Soap was always a sure bet.
Sorry I am 11 months late. Living in St. Philips nl
It was absolutely amazing and incredibly humbling to hear your dad talk about 'Hey, you may have been doing it wrong for 40 years' and willing to learn... we need more of that in this world.
You might want to add some Fleetguard DCA4 to the cooling system it forms a film on the liner that slows down cavitation erosion on the liners and look at using a remote deaeriation tank / fill to the cooling system to purge intrained air out of the system.
I thought the same thing,, good man right there
I agree with Jim, I do repairs that are more technical today and stand back and say: What if, and question everything. There’s a lot of variables in running an engine. I know one thing, when my Jaguar needs rebuilding, I’m crating her up and sending it down I80. Thank you for your wonderful and informed video’s.
@rossilake3430 Very good comment. I agree with you also
I tell my buddy that every time he says it.
30 years as a diesel tech, those pistons are definitely damaged from timing advance. I've been in your shoe's on an inframe case 540 engine. The pump was rebuilt at the same time and set up wrong. I had to do the job again as a come back at 22.7 hours, spent 2 weeks trying to figure out what I did wrong. Sent the pump out and found out it was wayyyy advanced. You guys are on the right track get the pump right and put it back together.
That was my first thought also,,, disassembled a few like there's and that was the issue....
My dad is in the business of rebuilding injectors/injector pumps and i did it as well for a couple of years and have seen this exact problem caused by injection timing being to advanced so i would say that this is 100% the issue
Then why are some cylinders o.k. and others are showing signs of injector failure ?? These guys don't have a clue !
We dont wanna hear that. Bring data
@@georgepruitt637 you rarely get failure on all cylinders simultaneously also varying injector condition might have contributed
@@negromalunch what do you want me to do go back in time a take pictures of previous examples
"These guys don't have a clue!".......No shit man, they literally said that in the video.
As a fellow tractor mechanic, I appreciate seeing y'all struggle as well
This may be my favorite JAMSI video yet. Having your proud work blow up in your own face is never fun, but the clarity of thought and exposition in this postmortem is just incredible. I think a lot of scientists, engineers, and technologists could benefit to watch this video. Bravo.
I'll second this. Very detailed. Open and not closed minded. Pops is a wealth of knowledge and so humble !
was that just great .
i have to agree, when you have skin in the game and things go bad, yeah you get moments of clarity. in a way , its a good way to learn.
I appreciate your honesty making this public. Not every engine builder would have went public.
I love how you guys very gently told all the internet experts to bug off.. keep on truckin and get that tractor back to work!!! good work and good luck!
I work on complex cloud based IT systems and I have found when it comes to root cause, it’s usually something simple or a few simple things failing together. Love the parallels
When fixing cars and tractors I constantly tell myself "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID"
Yo I'm an ex diesel mechanic turned software engineer and I find the parallels allll the tiime
Yup even in my new field of large scale commercial construction its same way. Its usually the little things that snowball
@@captaintoyota3171 those happy little accidents that turn into a caterpillar telehandler sitting on top of some schmucks car after falling from the top of a building under construction are just the "best."
Or... someone rebuilds a component without your knowledge and then just goes 🤷
Man, you guys really do an excellent job. It's hard in this day and age to put it lightly. Like you said no hard feelings with the injection pump shop but that's extremely unfortunate you lost that information because I am right on board with you. The pump is to blame here. Unfortunately it's like this with everything. I'm a heavy equipment mechanic and I cannot get any other shop local to me to help me anymore than I can help myself. You guys went through it with your crane and your doors and your new shop. There are just not many people out there right now that are really willing to take the extra time and do failure analysis and go the extra mile, and it's really hard not to get discouraged dealing with it.
I used to do things on engines (troubleshooting) on seaships...
No parts normally and no shops....
Succes....
definitely that technician was not to blame, but that is also what i kind of do not like about huge shops that work by that system: you talk to sales person that absolutely does not know about anything how it works, he is barely payed enough, and is not actually taught was processes go on in the workshop, or wherever, and all he has to do is fill by writing a form from what HE got and understood from the customer, then the technician has to interpret that kind of maybe misleading form, and he has no connection to the customer except through in turn filling a form and sending it to the proper person that in turn will call the customer...had they been in direct contact, and the technician did not have so much work to do BEFORE getting to their pump, so that they could be around/still available to quickly talk, they would have had a greater result. and i am not attacking that shop in particular at all, as i said, i hate that system in general,be it in other shops of the same type, or huge chain mechanic shops, and you see a lot of those videos about mechanics working there deciphering what the salesperson scribbled, that is by no means enough text, like there some times are less than 60 words, really? a normal conversation with the customer had it happened, excluding the non important part of small talk, would easily be past 1000 words, plus, the mechanic can easily ask questions directly for clarification, ... well, at that scale, it might be a more time efficient way maybe for those big shops, but it is definitely not the better,
Failure analysis is key learning tool as you don't ever wonder why it works for very long, why it didn't work is the the long term puzzle
@@Qwertyuiop-wg5xu .
What you and your dad are doing for the farming community who do their own mechanic work is greatly appreciated!! Your build series has been AMAZING! The diagnostic and troubleshooting information about why this failure occurred is top notch! ! I watched all your videos on the Allison.. keep up the good work!!
LOL, you do realise people pay for the work. It's not like they are a charity.
@Cheepchipsable Apparently you’re not educated enough to understand the comment, There has been major legal battles over the right to repair within the farming industry as well as others!
This is how troubleshooting is done in order to find the root cause. Lots of symptoms to pick through but doing it right takes time and skill. Well done, fellas.
Tough brake looking forward to the solution
Having been involved in performing root cause analysis for big engineering problems, I can say that you two have covered this about as thoroughly as possible, so well done for that!
It's also just amazing to listen to two experts in their field discuss the problem and work through it.
My background is electrical, so while I have a working understanding of engines and machining, this stuff definitely isn't in my wheelhouse. But you two make it all very accessible, and I understood 99% of what you discussed.
Keep up the great work!
I would be checking the spray pattern of your injectors. On those early engines fuel injection started as early as 40 degrees BTDC. It does not start to burn until the crank is less than 5 degrees BTDC as the compression is not high enough. A bad injector that sprays fuel to wide can wash the oil off the cylinder walls causing high wear,scoring and extra heat!
Agree 100%
It fires off almost instantly otherwise you'd see heaps of smoke due to non atomized fuel.
Timing for a low rpm DI engine is generally between 15-25⁰ btdc, they don't need 30+.
The burn is high on the bowl but are they the same diameter bowls as stock?
That might be where the problem lies as the nozzles weren't replaced according to the earlier vid
@@lindenmartin2734 I was wonder if there’s different injector nozzle tips for turbo/non-turbo applications (w/ different spray angles).
I’m 100% in agreement on fuel spray or timing being the cause of failure. Also need to double check nozzle protrusion before reassembly.
@@dadsgarage738 usually it's only the orifice size or number of holes that will change but if they ran a larger dia bowl on a turbo version they'd likely have a wider spray angle to suit
Blown away by this walk through on diagnosis. Thanks for taking the time to make this. So many different ways to do build. If your not learning you aren't building/breaking! Keep up the great work
This makes me even more comfortable to bring you my 5.3 truck motor in a year or so for a rebuild. Nice to see the thought process all laid out here, and the obvious honesty. Thanks.
Great tutorial. All of us more "mature" fellows are always learning. I applaud that observation. So much has changed and developed over the decades. This is a fun and enlightening video. I am truly impressed how you two work so well together. A great team. Be good. Stay safe. Wishing you a deluxe day!
This is why this channel is amazing , being so transparent about the problems u run into. Good luck on your engine build I'm confident it'll be right this time!!
So here I am sitting in my chair watching, learning and listening to how a engine work's. How it's made what is what and why. I'm a chef so my speciality is the kitchen. However what I appreciate the most is the step by step ruling out what's wrong and why. Thank you for your time and efforts to make this wonderful Video.
I think you guys are on the right track. Years ago, building IH 361-407 engines, we ran into issues just like you guys are having. We would try to build them on the tighter side of spec. It took along time to figure out that it was the injection pump causing the issue. After taking to many people one guy asked if the injector spray pattern was high on the combustion bowl, which it was. Pump wasn't advancing like it was supposed to and the injectors were spraying across the top of the pistons. Ever since then we have the pumps done by a good diesel shop and haven't had issues since. For the sleeves and pistons coming assembled I was told by a Reliance rep that they are done like that for shipping and should be taken apart cleaned and inspected.
Completely agree with what the reliance rep said! Been told the same thing.
That 361-407 is not an engine you can cut any corners on, and expect it to live….as it sounds like you well know!
Even using Detroit Diesel factory parts in a 12V71 the rule was take everything and clean it. And in my case, I also soaked the pistons in oil before installing them. Results were that we ran them for 14,000 hours before I left and they were still running like new. Never worked on an A-C Diesel but have on IH, JD, Cummins, DD, FM, Bedford, Nordberg, Ford, and others over the last 50 years. When working on the engines everything was set to the minimum specs possible for increased life and by the books.
Seeing coolant on the top of the head on this engine that is clean says there is another problem. If the coolant is there from a bad bottom O-ring, it should be found in the oil also. That wasn't the case. This looks more like there was a head bolt that had a leak around it and the coolant got to the top of the head climbing the bolt. What sealant was used on the head bolts when the engine was assembled? Was the engine run and then checked after a couple hours to see if everything was still in spec as far as tightness? Diesel fuel is far less likely to cause scoring than water/coolant in a cylinder as Diesel fuel is a lubricant. Did anyone use Ether when first starting the engine?
@@gravelydon7072 I'm no diesel guy but I was wondering about diesel washing down a cylinder since it lubricates. Gasoline is a solvent so it washes down cylinders but diesel seems like it would be much easier on cylinder walls. Do they tell you to check the ring gap after the sleeves are installed? Kinda looked like they checked them before they were installed in the block.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 With the Detroits and all the others I worked on the gaps were checked with the liners/sleeves installed. There is a bit of dimensional change due to the pressure on them from a block. You also have to do it with the rings in a couple of places as the bores of a sleeve can change shape a little. Detroits had little pressure on them so not all that big a problem for them.
I just love the way you work. Talking and finding the problem from start to end. I am from Poland and for me is awesome to look how real technik experts works. Can't wait next video.
Excellent video guys. My knowledge says timing was to advanced by burn spots on pistons. That alone would have concentrated heat in those areas. If it would have sprayed in a little later it would have made more swirl out the fuel with the piston bowl and more evenly disturbed the heat. Don't gap rings more than spec it will just make a oil burner for life. Another thing I would check and I may be wrong as I have never worked on a Allis, is injection lines diameter. If any were replaced and possibly a smaller diameter, causing even more advanced injection. I learned this the hard way on a rough running IH DT436 had a couple of after market lines in stalled that were smaller causing earlier injection on those cylinders. Make certain by pump shop that vop. and injector spray tip angle are correct. If you can source a diesel timing light I highly recommend it. I find these pumps off a lot now days just from being rebuilt multiple times. For cooling systems I install coolant filters on every thing I rebuild, it not only keeps system clean but adds additives to protect liners. Keep up the clean professional work guys!
I had that issue with an XN6 Peugeot, gas, the 4 lines were tuned for each cylinder, and thus numbered, if out of sequence, would miss noticeably. I don't think the factory service manual clarified this issue either.
Bump!
I agree with timing. By the look of that piston your spray was out of the bowl. I destroyed a Cummins BT6 marine engine by early injection and the top of the piston looked very familiar.
Interesting. I find this series to be the best so far. I highly enjoy the process of having a problem and having to go through the sequence of ruling out any potential issues to find the answer. Once you got the tip on the injection pattern on the piston, then you read that article that said exactly what your issues were, it was like finding a hidden puzzle piece. Really cool.
I agree, I don't miss a video, and I think it is the best. I also believe that they do the best as they can. I trust their work and them
This is one of the most humble and enjoyable channels I look forward to seeing new video releases on.
Definitely get your injectors rechecked as well. Worked at an ag shop the last 3 years and we have had issues with some of our rebuilt injectors coming back not right from the injector shop. We put a rebuilt set in a fresh rebuilt engine with a fresh pump and it was not running correct from the get go. Through diagnostics we were narrowed it down to injectors or pump. Pulled injectors and they were not right. Pressures were off and spray pattern was not great. Had a couple other sets not check out right even though they were rebuilt. We now double check every set of injectors before putting them in and if not correct send them back. With that spray pattern shown on the piston I would definitely be rechecking those.
This shows a LOT of your integrity with this video. It shows that you ARE reading comments from your viewers and have a SINCERE and genuine interest in getting to the bottom of the issue that has occurred so as to not repeat it. That old tractor has probably NEVER gotten this much love nd attention from an owner in its life.
I will say that I do agree with the diagnosis of the ring gap being too little, but with the injection timing issue at hand as the evidence is showing you on that one particular cylinder, I am not conviinced that even had the gap been opened up more that you would not have had the same occurrence.
I will say this, when you go to reassemble this engine, i think it would be safe to go ahead and open that ring gap up to the at least the upper 50% of the ring gap refernced in the manual. That may result in a marginally higher fuel usage, but may not if it survives more than 2 hours an actually gets a GOOD solid break in time completed.
I do want to thank you for bringing all of us along on this journey and for you honest and candid comments and opinions. If this is finding you after it is all back together and running strong, sorry I am late!! have a safe and great rest of your summer!
Hi guys. Something to consider. The original Cummins B engines in the Doge pickup would seize/score the #6 and some times the #5 pistons if the coolant was lost. Also aluminum pistons. The most damage in your engine is to the rear 5 & 6 cylinders I would be looking at the water pump/cooling system. Disassemble the water pump and check the impeller and the impeller to volute clearances. Make sure the impeller did not slip on the shaft. I have received Allis water pumps that were not assembles properly. Once reassembled check cooling system pressure. Cummins 855 is 30 psi. I would not expect that for your engine but it gives you and idea of what should be there. Put a gauge in the block coolant drain port.
The damage to the liner O-rings is normal with a seized piston failure. I do not see anything wrong with your O-rings or how you installed them. Using the wrong lub to install will show up in the long term not in a new engine. The o-rings will usual come out swelled if the lub was wrong or engine oil in the coolant.
The rust on the liners is normal but you should be using the red diesel antifreeze. The diesel antifreeze has SCA additive to protect the cylinder liners from rust and the issues caused by cavitation erosion. The diesel antifreeze did not exist until the 80s.
As far as a fuel issues once the pump is done check the injectors for proper tips/spray patterns. Check injector protrusion. Make sure the injectors are the correct for the engine. Lots of problems with pickup truck diesels and hotrodders change to a different injector. Advanced timing is an issue with aircraft ground equipment using jet fuel and cylinder temps but usually damages all of the cylinders. 50 years with diesels let me know if I can help. Mike mverdow@verizon.net
Very good.
I understand that in rebuild kits like that, that the pistons rings and sleeves are a matched set, if mixed they will have different tolerances and could also be a factor, not the direct cause of the failure.
Your dealing with a kit,, any kit in any form needs a thourough insp per spec and tolerance. The block needs the same attention so as the head,, plane&square,,sleeves also per manufacture spec wether raised seal or flush per gasket seal,, well done tear-down insp // 52yrs exp
One correction, the color of the antifreeze means nothing, the composition means everything. Several manufacturers have color coded coolant that can be yellow, pink, orange, red, or green. These colors don't crossover to every manufacturer. The key is make sure you are using the right coolant not the right color. I work on diesel heavy equipment and we use a bulk green diesel antifreeze in 55 gallon drums from our supplier.
@@rrpeters Indeed, my family learned about color coded antifreeze the hard way back in 1999. Honda and Mitsubishi had green antifreeze back then. However, using the green stuff that you could find at the auto parts stores would destroy the water pumps. Honda and Mitsubishi used non-silicate antifreeze, but the green stuff in auto part stores was silicate based coolant. The result meant destroying water pumps.
I then made sure if I wasn't using OEM coolant, I was getting something with OEM equivalent chemistry.
Pentofrost and Zerex sell that sort of thing.
I realize there is no turbo, but maybe fit a pyrometer in that exhaust to monitor the temp next go around. Never can have too much data Good work guys, love watching your stuff!
It is turbocharged, you'll see it in the previous video
@@aardvarklet Yeah, it's turbo charged and I'd definitely add an EGT gauge to make sure it doesn't burn up again.
That's a good point. It may have run lean on low fuel pressure.
@@roballan4944 Good point!
@@roballan4944 It's a diesel there is no such thing as running lean. Diesel RPM and power is controlled by fuel flow, not fuel and air like in a gasoline engine. Less fuel, lower rpm there is no lean, just over fueling. The air volume ingested is constant and only changes with engine RPM and boost pressure.
Great autopsy guys, i had a similar failure on 2.5Ltr Land Rover engine years ago, never got to the bottom of it but i was convinced the injection pump i had overhauled at the time of the engine rebuild was the cause...While your going to the trouble of having the injection pump rebuilt have the injectors double checked too...Get the specialist to confirm the nozzle numbers are 100% correct for that engine/fuel system as there's 100's if not 1000's of different types of nozzles and they all have different characteristics such as spray pattern, angle, number of orifices, crack off pressure etc etc....
As a 30 year Diesel Mechanic it's great to see how you've systematically gone through each step in diagnosing your problem. Wish I could have helped you out a year ago, but it's a good learning experience. It's helpful for people to understand that diesel injectors act more like a burning torch than they do an explosion that happens all at once. Newer diesel injectors of the pizo common rail type will send multi small injection events during the firing cycle for better combustion and quiter idle as well as fire on the exhaust stroke for down stream after treatment. The reason for them not all becoming what we in the diesel field call "sticking a piston" is because of how the coolant flows in the system.
That cleaning guy is always getting into all sorts of stuff...
Right…
I can turn a wrench, my first rebuild happened 50 years ago, but diagnostics is the bane of my existence. Thanks for the tour of thought that will likely help me in the future. After seeing your conclusion, I scrolled back to see all five pistons side by side. The question I have is if the injector timing is off, shouldn't all 5 pistons, or at least the 3 not destroyed, show the same overspray on the top of the piston? Otherwise, your observation that the rear two pistons run hotter suggests that the temperature difference between the front and rear of the engine was severe, or the temperature tolerance is minimal. Just a thought from a guy who still has much to learn.
I think you guys are definitely on the right path with the injection timing . Hope you get it fixed
If the one cylinder is showing the early injection...I'd think all would be if it were how the pump was built maybe out of time. If the pump is injecting each at the same time...but some are spraying at different times then you have an injector issue most likely. They can test fine on a static tester but be different under heavy load and might be happening here.
It strikes me that the pump would affect all cylinders equally. But how to be sure? Looking forward to the result of the rebuild.
@@bobflannagan7262 It just scored first cylinders with worst cooling.
If you time it 180 out and run the engine 4 cylinders are in time perfect 2 are out of time by a small margin but that will cause your problem Lean is hot Love the content
@@markmonfee1478wrong, lean is cold on a diesel.
Rich is hot
I am a bobcat mechanic in Australia and still I believe that diesels can be really hard to troubleshoot i have had injectors that have started knocking i have had owners who simply don't have the time I have changed injectors and even had times where we have put liners in the freezer and heated a block overnight to change one piston and liner but you guys are giving a really great example of what to and not to do.
I love that y’all showed all possible issues and had a explanation for why they weren’t the problem. Also respect to y’all for showing all your mistakes, a lot of people wouldn’t show this bc it might make them “look bad”
I think it's great that you and your dad work together like that and get along as good as you guys do under any circumstances God bless you guys
You both have been pretty darn thorough in your diagnosis and thanks for sharing. The pump spray pattern that you showed and discussed sure sounds like the smoking gun. I certainly don't have any doubts about your initial assembly nor would I even question it.
Allis-Chalmers was a huge employer in my town of Laporte, IN . Chalmers bought out the old Advance-Rumely Corp. in 1931. Rumely built steam tractors and later the Oil-Pull tractors. Chalmers had a few thousand employees in Laporte at one time. Around 1980 they closed the plant.
If y’all need old Allis Chalmers parts, look up Robert Borneman out of Edson, Kansas. My uncle passed on and he inherited hundreds of AC combines and tractors. Thank y’all for the awesome videos!
And I also love how you guys aren't afraid to ask questions and aren't afraid to question your own work that definitely show his pride that is very rarely seen from people now and days
Excellent videos. Having skill and experience doesn't automatically make one an expert (like so many self proclaimed experts on the internet). Humility is truly on display as well as the desire for continued growth. Kudos to you both. Thank you for letting us share your journey.
Im in construction and ANYONE who comes in bragging about exp and what theyve done is immediatly suspect. True pros dont brag or say they are experts they just do the job and face every challenge as it comes
Patience, logic and honesty are rare qualities these days. Excellent channel/video.
Great diagnostic video. I’m sure any tech with years of experience can relate to a failure which leaves you scratching your head. Not to mention the paranoia that sets in when you fire that engine the 2nd time around. I have been there and you never forget. What did come to mind was EGT sensors on the manifold runners or shooting them with a FLIR or infrared gun.
Count your Blessings young man every single day that you still have your great dad here on earth. Reminds me of my relationship with my dad. We also rebuilt engines (our own)
And worked together .... your Blessed
You guy's are following factory specs and vendor recommendations plus your own knowledge when it's all back together and fired that first day will one to talk about. The fact your giving this effort is all anyone could ask. Excellent coverage.
This is your best video. So much knowledge, experience, and humility between you two. Best engine diagnosis video I have ever seen.
Great analysis guys! One thing that I didnt hear mention of, but you may have already addressed; have you pop tested the injection nozzles? If they are all too low out of spec, that will cause the same issue of early injection that an advanced pump will. Not sure if you sent them with the pump to your fuel shop, but definitely have them checked! I like running them at the top of spec, usually around 3200 psi for Bosch style nozzles. You get a crisp snap and better pattern. Just a thought!👍🏼
Dad and I used to do work on our family vehicles and occasionally, engines. You two remind me of those days. Love your work gentlemen.
You explaining how the spray pattern shows the piston still being too low finally helped me understand how that means the timing could be too advanced. Also, I'm not a diesel specialist by any means but I do know there are modern HD coolant formulations out there that might really help you with corrosion and cavitation. It's a bummer that the first build didn't work out, but hey at least it made for some good video content!
I agree. Red extended life coolant is what I use
Indeed, this is why I am glad there is Shell Rotella brand coolant that is additized for these old diesels. Shell Rotella is a very popular oil brand for big diesels, and having a great antifreeze brand is also great.
I have rebuilt a number of different engines over the years, but by no means do I have all the answers. You guys are very thorough in your diagnosis. What I have observed over the years in most engine failures is injector failure on one or cylinders. It seems that's the fastest way to ventilate pistons or break rings. As far as I can tell, you gentlemen are on the right track.
I did not read all the comments but I would suggest checking the key on the camshaft drive gear . This totally changes cam timing and pump timing . Easy to check when your down that far . This could happen from enginge kickback if some eithered it too much . These engines are critical to not using alot of starting fluid. Also make sure your sleve counter bore is correct . Good luck to you you are sure doing your homework. When I build a tractor engine of that size I stick with .025 to .035 on the top compression rings as far as I know with no failures . Just remember you can't always trust new part quality! I overhauled my C-15 Caterpillar truck engine putting on a brand new Cat head ( yes new not rebuilt ) in no time it was pushing pressure in the radiator . New head was cracked . A friend who is a Cat mechanic informed me he sends the to a machine shop to get pressure tested before he installs them and has found several cracked right out of the box . Take care and hang in there
Chalmers engines never ran any oil pressure any ways. The joke at home was you could blow in the gauge and make it read. Glad you guys are systematically troubleshooting.
I had a reliance kit for a 301 allis that did this same thing and reliance claimed it was the O-ring lube I used was incorrect which caused them to swell tight to the pistons when running. I have since only used John Deere cylinder soap and had no more issues.
I have almost no knowledge of engines and tuning, but this is fantastic to watch. I work in molecular biology and our experiments and equipment need diagnosing all the time, and it's great to see y'all working through this smart and educated- that's what always works for me and I love it. Learned a lot of interesting things about engines and I've got a list of interesting engine concepts to Google, so I'm leaving a happy camper 👍
First of all - thanks to both of you for your thorough and open analysis. I’m no expert, but I have spent lots of money on Diesel engines assuming that the fuel injection system is ok, only to end up rebuilding/replacing the pump and injectors. While not a smoking gun, the video of your initials cold start aligns with a fuel system issue. I wouldn’t have said based on that video alone you have a fuel issue, but reviewing the video after the play definitely shows something may be wrong
The coolant thing might be due to the chemical makeup of it. I usually suggest heavy duty diesel coolant that typically isn’t green. Different additives that help against electrolysis when not running.
There is electrolysis and then there is cavitation. I agree I’d use a Diesel Rated Nitrate mix … just like the older engines that didn’t have aluminum parts.
Really enjoyed the video and your thorough breakdown. I grew up on a farm, but am now a Neurosurgeon, watching this during a lull in the day. But this takes me back to tearing into a tractor ourselves. Thanks for the way you discussed the potential issues and why you ruled them out.
Upon getting it back together, a test that I would be comfortable with performing to see if you have injectors firing incorrectly under pressure, load the engine off the pto, run it up to rpm , use a heat gun on the exhaust manifold to check your individual egt’s, if they don’t match close something isn’t right
That sounds like very good advice. Under load is the way to go.
I love your video's. I have never been a mechanic other then water pump replacement, starter replacement, etc, the easy things. You are a smart man, the more we learn we should realize how little we really do know. If you go to any education and come out "knowing everything" your training has failed. Keep up these great you tube videos.
Looks to me like you are on the right track with pump timing. Hopefully, the guys working on rebuilding it can find something definitive to remove some of the doubt and second guessing.
It’s always nerve racking when a problem occurs and are unable to pin down exactly what the cause is.
I wish you well and hope things turn out.
I look forward to see Allis up and running soon.
I use silicone grease on C-15 cat engines for the lower counter bore and the top band needs to be soaked in engine oil prior to liner install so it'll swell once installed. There's several ways people do it but that's what I do and so far so good.
I need more thumbs to put up on this video!! This is the kind of stuff I just love to watch. Soooo much knowledge being shared by a seasoned machinist. I hate that this happened to him and his tractor but I hope it is perfect after this.
I think y'all are on the right track with the fuel timing. Y'all have the right attitude for looking for the original problem and moving forward. Thank you for the great videos.
The great part why I would trust you as a machinist is because of the troubleshooting and admitting when you are stumped and asking for advice from others. Happens to everyone at some point. Get your best guess and try it again. I like the cleaning guy, he said after all these years, he's still learning. That's what makes a wise man wise.
You guys are the best. I wish your shop was closer, you would be my go to.
I do not know diesels but have confidence you'll figure it out.
I think you are on the right track. Maybe add an EGT gauge when you put it together?
I really like the forensics and "wisdom of the crowd" operation. Good logic flow. Best video yet!
Damn my new favorite American UA-cam channel just like diesel creek and powernation 🇺🇸 🦅
Love your videos and the cleaning guy 😂
Greets from Germany 🇩🇪
Watch "that engine guy" you won't regret it
Coeeficient of Thermal Expansion can play hell on clearance gaps, thus materials can expand much more than spec'd yrs ago. Love this channel!!!
Big fan of the channel! I've followed your Allis story from rebuild, so have been very interested in understanding what went wrong. Thanks for the detailed review of the teardown. Very interesting observation of the injection spray pattern. Not familiar with how the pump advance works, but I would expect the advance to be wrong for all cylinders? My concern is what appears to be very gradational damage from 1 to 6. Makes me think coolant temp at the back of the block had some contribution to the problem. Have you had a look at the water pump impeller?
So yoyu're thinking that it's not necessarly overheating, but running just hot enough to drive up the combustion temperature?
Yes,impeller can cause problems with symbiosis like adv.timing.Not only one problem caused that .
I think you have properly evaluated this issue and all roads point to pump timing ! Thanks for sharing !
100% agree with the diagnosis, I was going to comment this, on the first video, but you had already pinned it. I'm sorry for your loss, its never nice to pull down your own work, but at least you know it was not your workmanship that caused it. From someone that's been doing it for only 30 years, I love your videos because you do things 100% the way I would, and I'm considered fussy. Its also made for some extremely interesting videos, that continue to showcase your high standards. You were recently " reviewed " by Barum engines here in the UK. just so you know, I consider you far above them, and the father and son story and dynamic is an added treat. 👌 don't change a thing 😍
I completely agree with you regarding Barum engines compared with Jim's Automotive they're a joke.
I enjoy watching both BARUM and JAMSI as both do interesting work. I consider BARUM’s work to be of high quality given their constraint of using ageing machines - i.e. not every shop can afford to invest in very expensive new machines. I suspect that BARUM’s specialist on cranks (I think his name is John) does not wish to be featured on UA-cam, so there is no crankshaft grinding work shown on their videos.
I consider the comment provided by @SAMRODIAM to be wrong and mischievous.
I'm a senior IT guy by trade and a hardcore DIY'er at home, and have built a strong reputation for troubleshooting, even on systems I don't know much about. I'm no expert on engine machining, piston sleeves, what flavor of vegetable oil tastes the best with sauteed O-rings, etc, but from my perspective as a jack of all trades and roving troubleshooter, this series strikes me as an EXTREMELY thorough analysis of what could have gone wrong. You analyzed every possible component and actively questioned whether you could have done something wrong - not letting pride get in the way of objective truth - and methodically proved that you had not. GREAT job on the analysis, and I'll bet at least a shiny nickel the problem was that pump being out of time.
I would definitely be wondering about the reliability of first rebuild on that injection pump especially if it was built 180 out, and I believe I saw some comments on the last video about those having some issues.
I respect that you're doing a teardown and diagnosis on the failed engine that YOU rebuilt yourself. I could see some people who would never bring that up and open themselves up to criticism from "armchair mechanics".
I’ve worked for Cummins Engine all my life. They used engine oil when assembling the old NH , N-14 and the new B and C engines.
As a Journeyman Industrial machine repairman. The black O rings are good for oil . The viton O rings are good for hydraulic and synthetic coolants 👍
I am a retired Cat mechanic, love your brake down! Since you gone this far, when put it back to gather, put the liners in and measure to see if the o-rings are correctly installed and not rolled by measuring with the liner bore gauge for tapper! Had an apprentice put a liner in with out cleaning the lower bore tapper where o-ring go and twisted the o-rings, had him measure the liner bore and it had decreased in size by .004 thousands, made him pull liners and cleaned the lower bores and chamfer, had him put new seals on and reinstall, there was no size difference from top to bottom on the liner! You can make a liner smaller by twisting the o-ring! Also put piston rings one at a time in liner to check end gap, you are checking everything so why not for show and tell, and to prove you have the right gap! Cat has a tool we put in the injection line and a timing probe in the flywheel that lets us get the injection timing, so if it is off we can change it!
Proper old school you guys are. Makes such a refreshing change to see.
Thanks for the in depth "autopsy". As I watched, you examined every possibility I thought of (and others I didn't).
FWIW I agree with your determination of injection pump config/advanced timing.
It will be exciting to see it running properly. 👍
I like in the intro. Where you guys explain what happened while showing work being done on the right. Smart video editing!
In my opinion I think something went wrong
I would agree with your line of thought.
I have spent most of my career overhauling large engines and compressors in the Gas industry.
Just a couple thoughts:
Put the orings on the liner clean and dry. Using a long slim rod or screw driver between the liner and orings, spin the rod around the circumference of the liner to ensure the orings are lying true with no twist, be careful when u remove the rod as to not induce twist. Lightly lubricate the liner bore of the block and a bit on the orings themselves And install them immediately once lubricated. Don’t force them in just a steady even push and let them find their way home. A quick check with your bore gauge will ensure no rolled or pinched orings. Install pistons afterwards.
Could another possible issue be cheap quality of materials used ? Unfortunately that seems to be a growing issue. Even parts that are supposed to be “the good stuff”, Ive noticed wear out faster than they used to. One example I’ve recently heard was timing set from a good name brand, failed in very short order due to poor quality materials.
Anyway, I think your definitely on the right trail, good luck.
Can't wait!
Me neither!
@@JAMSIONLINE 🤣, you already know! Were the ones waiting to find out! 🤣. Looking forward to it.
When you showed the cylinder walls I was thinking fuel issues of some sort whether it be washing or combustion temps. I know that the fuel spray has to be confined to a small hollowed out area in the top of the piston or into a precombustion chamber or energy cell. Any fuel that touches the cylinder walls is bad news.
I worked for an injection pump rebuilder years ago and it was up to me to remove the old timing mark from the ring in the timing window of the Rosa Master and put a new mark on that ring using air pressure in the #1 port in the pump to locate where the new timing mark had to be. We just used an electric engraver to do that.
Great video, it brings me back four plus decades.
Think you are spot on in your diagnosis. Fuel timing and ring clearance. 5 & 6 smoked first due to there position in the block. Have had a similar issue on a cummins 6bt. Didn't fail as bad as your engine but very similar damage. The fact your pump came back from the fuel shop 180 out says it a lot about that man's work. Don't forget to change your injector tips as they have had a scalding too.
Very interesting! I have been working through a very similar situation on a Chrysler 230 flat head. My hypothesis is the valve lifter adjustment was to tight. When the engine was working hard, the valves would lengthen and take out the lifter clearance and no longer seal. Exhaust gases would leak into the intake manifold causing a lean very hot fuel mixture resulting in excess piston and ring expansion. This all seems a bit crazy, but I’m 95% sure this was the issue. Love the video. Take Care
I've got a few years of wrenching under my belt but I'm no expert on everything but I honestly think you guys are right about the injection timing being the cause of the failure
I believe you guys are on the right track make sure everything is In line Don’t chase bad parts been working on dig d engines for 47 years good luck
You guys just gave a Master Class! Very thorough and concise. Good job and Good Luck with it.
@JAMSIONLINE12 Thank ya'll! What do you need from me.?
If you’ve sent the injection pump out, don’t forget the injector nozzles. Make sure the pressures that the nozzles pop off at are in spec and that they all match.
Best lubricant for the "o" rings is the oil your planning on using. Through de-burring of the o- ring grooves in the block is a must.
When our JD 4010 was new, it smoked like a freight train. 3 overhauls later, grandpa had the injection pump rebuilt. Sun prairie pumps in Wisconsin found it had a scored metering valve from the factory. It was washing the cylinders down. They were told to use dish soap on the orings. When I'm working on cat engines, I use dish soap on orings for cooling system and grease on orings for oil system. The orings for the coolant will swell with oil and grease and cause failure. So I agree, whatever the manufacturer suggests using is what to use. Good luck and I hope that you are correct when thinking it is injection timing.
I had a Cat C15 twin turbo Acert engine rebuilt with a Cat Platinum kit in a 2005 Western Star. Within 6 months, it was puking oil into the turbo. Within two years, oil consumption had increased to about 2-3 gallons a day. Blowby pressure was high and messy. It blowed out two front seals. A short time later, the engine siezed coming down I-85. The crank welded to the block. Another engine had to be installed. It lasted about two years until a rebuild...well over 1,000,000 miles on it. It's running strong with no oil consumption.
The only time I had a problem like yours was a 4430 John deer. I built that engine 3 times with the same results! I finally went to the local dealer and talk to the shop forman and knew the tractor! He said the problem was real simple, it was 120hp tractor turned up to 165hp and no break in time!
Your transparency is refreshing. Best video yet
I really like the videos. I've been a mechanic for more than 35 years. I'm a master mechanic. And I'm still learning. That's what I like.
As an engine builder myself I can see the depth of knowledge here and empathize with your frustration. Seems there's a thousand things that can go wrong that you shouldn't really have to check. May I throw one more in ...I've had problems with replacement water pumps with cheep stamped steel impellers replacing the O.E cast iron contoured originals. the rear cylinders do often run hotter / may be enough to start the dominoes falling. I think from memory in the GM71 series workshop manuls there was a spec' for water pump pressure at idle. Shame the injector pump is not a smoking gun. I'm sure you guy will track it down.
Thanks fellas excellent series. The problem with todays service centers is parts replacers. The lack of correlation between the the symptoms, evidence and measured values and stuffing a part in is what is missing. Its why i do all my own work.