Who Approved This and Why Is It Still Being Made? Wet Belt aka Belt in Oil Engines
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 вер 2024
- Support the channel by shopping through this link: amzn.to/3RIqU0u
Patreon: / d4a
Become a member: / @d4a
Grit: / @grit00000
Something that’s very important when it comes to rubber timing belts and that was beaten into the heads of mechanics, diyers and even consumers when belts started becoming widespread was that rubber belts must not be contaminated with engine oil. Oil will cause the rubber to swell up, delaminate, and crack which leads to premature belt failure. And belt failure results in catastrophic engine damage because it leads to a loss of timing synchronization between the camshaft and the crankshaft which means that the piston will hit and bend the valve on interference engines which requires an engine rebuild.
This means that if you accidentally spill a significant amount of oil on your belt you should replace your belt. If you detect an oil leak that was also exposing the belt to oil…you should fix that leak and replace your belt.
So after 40 years of being taught that oil and timing belts don’t mix almost everyone was surprised when Ford in late 2007 introduced an engine where the belt was exposed to engine oil ALL the time. Heck it wasn’t just exposed, part of it was actually submerged in engine oil.
The engine in question is the Ford 1.8 tdci diesel engine. Before late 2007 the engine timing system consisted of a timing chain running from the crankshaft to the high-pressure diesel injection pump and a dry rubber timing belt running from the fuel pump to the camshaft. In late 2007 the timing chain was replaced with a rubber timing belt that was exposed to oil just like the timing chain was.
But here’s the interesting thing, Ford did not only submerge the timing belt into something that was called a contaminant for 40 years it even increased the service interval because according to Ford the submersion of the belt in oil reduces belt wear. The dry belt was given a service interval of 160.000 km or 5 years whereas the wet belt was given a service interval of 200.000 or 10 years because according to Ford the wet belt benefited from additional lubrication. So before when you spilled oil on the belt the belt was considered contaminated, now the contaminant was considered a lubricant. Understandably many mechanics, engineers, journalists, and other members of the general public with a pinch of common sense and a basic understanding of physics and chemistry thought that Ford’s belt in oil system was a bad idea.
In 2012 it became evident that Ford considered the new wet belt technology a success and a good idea because it was also introduced in the new 1.0 three-cylinder turbocharged EcoBoost engine which soon spread to the majority of models in Ford’s fleet. Other European manufacturers also considered Ford’s approach a success and a good idea because they started introducing it very soon after Ford. Renault was an early adopter of this technology as early as 2008 with their 1.5 DCI diesel engines. Wolkwagen put wet belts on their 1.5 tsi turbo petrol around 2010. Opel and Vauxhall did it on their 1.2 and 1.5 turbo petrol models around the same time. Peugeot also joined in with their 1.2 pure-tech 3-cylinder turbo petrol around 2013. It seems that everyone was after that 1% fuel savings.
But today in 2024 we have more than enough data and reports to say with great certainty that wet belts are a stupid idea. Just like many mechanics, engineers, journalists, and other members of the general public with a pinch of common sense and a basic understanding of physics and chemistry claimed when the technology was first introduced.
Wet timing belts have led to a great number of premature belt failures which have led to catastrophic engine failures costing owners thousands of euros. The vast majority of wet belts never made it anywhere near the recommended service interval of 200.000 km an above. Most required replacement at half that and there are reports of belts that have failed even before the vehicle reached 100.000 kilometers. But wait, we must not forget the 1% fuel savings!. The average European covers 13.000 kilometers with their vehicle every year. If we take the average fuel consumption to be 6.5 liters per 100 kilometers this gives us an annual fuel consumption of 845 liters and an annual cost of fuel of 1.521 EUROS. 1% of that is 15.2. This is how much money a wet belt saves the consumer every year. 15.2 Euros per year in exchange for the financial as well as environmental burden of thousands of prematurely failed engines
A special thank you to my patrons:
Daniel
Pepe
Brian Alvarez
Peter Della Flora
Dave Westwood
Joe C
Zwoa Meda Beda
Toma Marini
Cole Philips
#d4a #ecoboost #puretech
Support the channel by shopping through this link: amzn.to/3RIqU0u
Patreon: www.patreon.com/d4a
Become a member: ua-cam.com/channels/wosUnVH6AINmxtqkNJ3Fbg.htmljoin
Grit: ua-cam.com/channels/t3YSIPcvJsYbwGCDLNiIKA.html
⚠️5k miles oil intervals for all modern engines is key.
Timing chains, guides cylinder walls and crank journals etc last last considerably longer.
I've and others have proved it in the motortrade ✅️
I found the video very optimistic, not depressing. If your voice helps them stop that ignorance in even the slightest way it is well placed optimism to think it is well worth trying.
You can blame the company(s), but ultimately this goes back to regulations from the governments, full of people who don't understand ANY of these engineering problems, demanding better and better emissions. 😒
They should have stopped pushing a long time ago, and just accepted the significant gains already achieved.
plz use that mindset with crumple zones and airbags! how many deaths from no airbags in the back seat?
You are 100 percent right! It's Consumerism, Purposefully creating a product that Fails with the intent to force consumers to have to Buy More! Artificially creating industry financial security. Instead of a Product that you buy once every 25-50 years, you buy a product that you have to replace every few years. Even Lightbulb manufacturing has a Limit to the number of hours the Bulbs are allowed to last for the reason that they can keep making and selling them continuously. Yep, Evil, Dastardly Consumerism. And it has gotten worse and worse over the last 75 years. They don't even try to hide it it seems. I Love your Cannel Man! Awesome, Educational, and Informative!
But, a snapped belt means 100% fuel savings and a 100% silent engine.
Now, where did I leave my carbon fiber submersible? 😂
Aaargh!! Too soon??
@@ArifGhostwriter never too soon 🤣.
Walking also means lower emissions which is a win for the planet so the automotive companies can be proud of that. "More Ford owners than any other brand walk to do daily activities which means that we, the Ford Motor Company, are helping to clean up the planet."
@@ArifGhostwriter It's a 'low' blow
@@rylandrc Low & very high pressure?
BMW also earns extra points for making timing chains that fail before timing belts.
Blown Motor Werke
The timing chain can't fail if the shitty plastic chain guide fails before ! ... Bmw logic
and also .....but not only bmw , others do too ....BMW spared ONE ( 1 ) lid and gasket and moved to timing stuff to....the worst place to be for a timing chain , at the point where the most vibrations and inkonsistency occurs , at the clutch .
and it makes it more expensive to maintain or change .
sometimes engineers need a slap to the back of their heads .
BMW's are not know for failing timing chains. Failing VANOS, connecting rod bearings, HP fuel pumps, plastic connectors, etc. but not timing chains.
BMW claims to be the "Driver's car". They never claimed to be the " Owner's car" :^)
The continued use of wet belts despite the known drawbacks only reinforces the
belief that modern cars are not being built for long-term reliability.
Awesome job on this video. 👏👏👏
Cars are being built by the government.
The manufacturers don’t care as the belts fail after the warranty is up. Then they can sell parts or entire engines and add to the bottom line. They figure (rightfully so) that buyers mostly buy another brand of vehicle whether they have had trouble or not, so why should they spend pennies to try to keep them as customers? It’s all in the actuary charts for them. Also, decent cars now last 10 years or more, so a frugal person will own, what, 5 new cars in a lifetime? Even less incentive to do the right thing for them.
Wouldn’t expect anything less from Ford, same company that brought you the Pinto
@@blauer2551I had Two Pinto's and both were really reliable and easy to work on. The best one was the 2000cc engine in the '73 it actually had 5 main bearings in the block. Thats the same as most V-8 engines.
Now ford has a plastic oil pan I used to think Ford was a ok vehicle for the money now I'm glad I'm a gm guy
one thing that I find amazing is that f1 (pinnacle of motorsports engineering) is using timing GEARS instead of belts and chains for the last 20 years and no one even mentions it as a possibility to solve this problem once and for all.
There are engines with shaft drive instead of geers and belts.
There were engines made with timing gears, like the 3.0 liters diesel from VW used in the first generation of Tuareg. It basically never has to be serviced.
Super noisy and ineficient. Race cars usually have timing gears to be robust, but chains/belts are way more reliable in the long run because they make up for small changes im clearences and wear.
Like the 2CV !
A lot of race car engineering is inappropriate for road car applications as the goals are so different. NVH, cost and long-term reliability being the obvious ones. As you can imagine it's a lot more difficult to tightly control the position and precision tooth form of a series of gears versus a few gears connected by a much more compliant chain/belt.
Engineer: uhhh wet belt would break down so much quicker
Exec: yeah but it saves $10 per engine and makes us even more money per failure *fires engineer*
Well you see it's actually great that the car will fail quickly and the repair bill is gonna be astronomical, cause that will push suckers (us) to buy more cars
THAT exec has a bright future at Boeing...!!!
@@piccalillipit9211 unfortunately, that became the rule across all industries.
@@Matt_Duke more cars from another manufacturer.
Its known as a “career limiting question”
Polymer scientist here: All polymers have in common, that chemical, mechanical and thermal loading/aging are not independent but reinforce each other, leading to drastically accelerated aging/failure. It is not completely impossible to develop a wet timing belt, but: The materials used would be drastically more expensive and development and accurate lifetime predictions would be extremely complicated.
Kevlar is the way😂
Do polymer scientist only eat from polymer bowls, use polymer cutlery etc?, i heard they do that.
@@MrKalashnikov47 How do you hold the Kevlar fibers together?😉
So are current wet belts just the same pedestrian dry belt chemistry? Are there any chemical differences?
Ford should take notes from Honda lawnmower engines. Honda mower engine have had wet timing belts for years and I haven’t heard about any breaking. I’m sure a couple probably have broken but not nearly as much as ford
Most people choose their cars by liking the headlights and grill. Good Content
Nowadays OEM’s seem to think people choose cars based on the infotainment 😅
@@Nathan0A if my daily is anything to go by, i only need an AM radio....
Nowadays people choose whatever car they can barely afford 😂
The motor manufacturers are trying to make these things the default petrol engine, in order to give petrol engines a bad name, so that they can push their awful electric milk floats on to the unsuspecting and gullible members of the car buying public. It's all a race to the bottom. Great video btw. 👍👍
That is part of it 😂 but no first is engine and drivetrain life
I never thought that engines with timing chains were noisy. Never.
I can't recall hearing the timing chain on any engine, ever. Even my dad's Cadillacs, which were overall very quiet, had enough other noises going on that you couldn't hear the timing chain.
usually the injectors are noiser than the engine itself.
Go buy a VW with a chain 😂😂
It's the lie the manufacturers tell you so you think it's a benefit.
they likely where in the 60s. now the chains are guided by plastic the whole way so no room left for clacking
I never understand exactly what I like the most in this channel... Now I realized - it is the philosophical background! "Humanity uses technologies to make problems instead of solving problems..." - well spotted!
Yes! And once - I even caught him saying 'this civilisation...' - indicating that he is either into or at least acknowledges that realm of interest where we do not believe that we are the first of our kind (advanced humans) on Earth.
I agree with the statement, minus "Humanity"..
Phoebus Cartel (for ref. For validity for reasoning)
My claim; It's not WE, The People (not just of The United States Of America, of Humanity who I wholeheartedly believe SHOULD be sovereign nation States, respectively) solve problems the "ruling class" of inbred freakshow satanic willfully infested demonspawns who are greedy, believing their bs justifications for suppressing technological advances that would allow the worldwide infusion of peace through readily available energy systems and localized food sourcing... Who lie and claim overpopulation is a thing. Who really do think they're the apex humans "culling the herd as wolves", while they're nothing more than half wee tawdead crazed cowardly fallacious bullies and thugs... The more educated and "advanced" a culture of humanity, the more leveled off and not explosively populating we are. We absolutely can sustain our populations and not "destroy" earth. Climate changes 4 times a year!! CO2 feeds plant life which feeds us oxygen... It's all a lie to get us to believe we HAVE to depopulate per "club of rome" Georgia Guidstone 500,000,000 goal of reduction of species...
Do prove me wrong. Please!!
Much Love from North Dakota, friend, God bless, good hunting, and always, Godspeed!!
Sincerely.
im 14 and this is deep
Its so depressing
I work in an automotive component supply company, the illusion that parts are tested prior to launch is a hark back to olden times. There’s a computer based modelling of lifetime stresses and then the bean counters force a launch and everybody crosses their fingers for the best. I’ve even seen defective product shipped before a solution was found to avoid late delivery penalties. The Japanese are the only ones with tight standards hence why I only drive Japanese cars.
I'm am an automotive metallurgical engineer and a lot of my work engine R&D including both the specification side and the wear and failure analysis side. I have never witnessed a conversation that involved intentionally reducing the service life or reliability of any engine component, but I have been part of many conversations where my push (or the powertrain engineers' push) for more durable or reliable components got shot down on cost limitations. Management ALWAYS asks for more reliable engines, but they often set cost as a higher priority, and they almost always set fuel efficiency and emissions as the top priorities. Yes, the customer wants to pay for a reliable engine, but governments are forcing us to shave every tenth of a percent on both fuel efficiency and emissions. Automakers get fined hundreds of millions of dollars for selling customers the powerful, reliable engines they want instead of the 1% cleaner, 1% more efficient engines that sacrifice everything the customers want.
I don't believe higher management would ever disseminate or leave any proof that they would request engineers build less reliable engines. So of course they would use other tactics to reach the same result, such as reducing costs. So it makes sense you wouldn't hear about it
@@durragas4671 I've been involved in conversations that started with "what is the cheapest plastic we can make this part of" when nobody at that point in the design process knew what were the requirements for that part or if indeed plastic was suitable at all for that specific application.
governments are evil now days
I agree that the government is more responsible (rules, regulation and fines) for this than the automakers. Still the companies bean counters are to blame also.
That's because governments wanted the internal combustion engine gone, or severely limited decades ago. It all began with (over here) ridiculously high taxes on fuels. And the car manufacturers did not want to comply and kept on going with old tech (combustion engines). That had to clash at some point, and the consumer is the one paying the bill.
"I'm a fan of objectivity and rationality." A-effing-men, brother, speak it! This is the best-explained, best-reasoned takedown of the industry's painfully obvious wet belt scam. Absolutely beautiful.
They did it to flamboozle regulators: the 1% savings was all about milage gains [real or imagined]. The fact it costs consumers 1000x to maintain vs what gets saved at the pump? Not a concern of CAFE standards, or the politicians pretending they know anything about engineering or economics.
The lawsuits say it all... Sealants is losing their $#!^.... and that means money in the long run...
I owned an engine machine shop in California - lots of BMWs. I love them! Made a TON of money on BMW. When the belt or chain fails on a normal engine, the valves hit the piston (some "non-interference" engines don't, but most do), the valve is bent and the valve guides are ruined. So you cut out the valves , remove and replace the guides, hone them to fit do the other normal machine work ( machine the valve seats that are serviceable, replace seats that were damaged, deck the head, etc) and then it's good as new. With a BMW, the piston hits the valve and it breaks the overhead cam saddles right out of the head castings! We had tooling (custom designed and made) that allowed us to weld up the heads to form new saddles, which we would then re-machine. It was still cheaper for the Customer than buying a new head from BMW, and our head was stronger. The Customer gets back on the road with a lower cost, and I make money. It was so lucrative that I kept various BMW heads rebuilt and ready to go on the shelf. There was always demand! The workmanship from BMW was beautiful... but the engineering wasn't.
I'm from Brazil, Yes we have middle age problems AND wet belts. I always recommend people to ask before purchasing a new car, if it has wet belt don't go any further. But most of people just choose cars by their design and comfort items
You hit the nail on the head, if potential car buyers did any research at all everyone would be driving around in 20 year old Toyota Corollas.
I am guilty myself. I was happy to buy a newly designed engine w the last car, i was proud to have checked. But besides that i did not dig any deeper. One would think people could compare more easily these days, but where can i find all that detailed info in 1 spot. Or is the answer to everything Honda or Toyota. ?
@@anrit5972well that’s literally my family rn 😂😂😂
Add in poorly made electronics and buggy software, and you have it all!
I bought a diesel with a timing belt because it was easier to maintain than a v6 with chains that would be an engine out repair.
Better fuel mileage is nice but goes to higher maintenance cost.
Love the exhaust brake though.
As an ex-ford tech, we replaced quite a few transit custom engines due to wet belt failure at around 180k kms, pretty consistently. They would just rip teeth off the belt.
Lasted longer than dry belts..
Ford: Built Tough 😤🥴
@neilasd3043 Did it really? The last car we had with a dry belt had it replaced at 160KKM as preventive maintenance. It was still in good condition. Not to mention that the job is a lot less labour intensive and therefore cheaper.
Well as long as it’s out of warranty then ford is OK with that. They get to sell a van and a spare engine!
Maybe that's why the owner should have replaced it at 120k kilometers
We can conclude that engineering exists to make an engine last 500k miles. Engineers now focus solely on timing big failures just outside the warranty expiration. The closer they get to the expiration date, the better the engineering job. Kudos to the folks at BMW - you are at the head of the class!! 👊
A Yamaha XJR1300 Timing Chain only lasts up to 498kkm. Must be a weak design............ for a Motorbike.
...engineering USED TO exist to make an engine last 500k... Yep, now they want things just barely good enough to outlast warranty, aka planned obsolescence.
Don’t assume malice when incompetence is a good explanation. A lot of the oldtime grease-under-the-fingernails engineers are gone and companies are stuck with CAD monkeys that couldn’t even change the oil in their lawnmowers.
😂yes....Original Lexus LS400 engine. Pure silk designed to basically run forever, for instance. Or the original red block Volvo with a timing gear/sprocket....
Been like that since the 90s if not mid 80s.
The rant at the end was my favourite part. I feel that from the bottom of my heart too, just the crushing feeling of how much further we could be or could have become if it all wasn't in the quest for squeezing every last dollar and the very soul.
A Ford dealer here in Germany quoted me 2850€ (roughly 3000 $) for a Timingbelt change on my 1.0 Ecoboost.
I have 10 years of fixing all sorts of vehicles under my belt,
but theres just no way i could do that job on the Parking lot of my appartment.
You need an entire Briefcase of special tools AND pull appart half of the Engine
(best would be to just rip the engine out at that point),
for a job the takes 1 1/2 hours on a old VW/ Opel/ French car. (2 hours if knock one back with the bois while i`m at it)
Not talking about the gigantic mess of oil or
the "shit, now i need this specific part from the dealer i forgot to buy/ broke"- moment.
Hell, doing a CLUTCH-job on most cars is easier and faster then this shit.
€3k to replace the belt? Scam.
That quote is ridiculous. Presumably that's an official Ford dealer? I drive Fords for a very good reason, and that's because they are good value for money, reliable, and cheap to service and fix. But your quote totally undermines that concept of value for money for the customer.
Surely, you could get a better quote than that if you go to a good franchise dealer, or even a specialist mechanic shop with a good reputation?
One could buy an entire second hand car with that kind of money.
@@richardconway6425 You must drive 40 year old fords or something, everything they've made since has been utter garbage.
I've seen a picture of a Ford engine that has the oil pump driven by a wet belt, that goes around the crank, so you'd need to remove the crank to replace the belt, a belt that is emersed in viscous oil, wedging itself between the pulley and belt. Mental.
@@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391 The engineer will go to Hades...along with who approved the design.
That one percent fuel saving would go straight out the window as soon as the engine goes into rich mode because of engine knock.
So Infact there is no saving at all, just more expense.
I must say this channel is one of the best, if not the best automotive channel on UA-cam. Great work.
Same with the EGR lie! Reducing NOX with feeding the engine junk meant less of a percentage of nox at a higher fuel consumption. Burn more fuel = more profit for the industry with total nox actually gone up!
But the knock is not actually caused by the wet belt, is it? Not seeing the logic here.
It's probably BS too, there's NO chance those engines save a whole %1. There's barely any friction between the belt and gears to begin with...
Certainly the Ford 1l ecoboosts have long been known to get nowhere near their cited fuel economy figures and I would not be remotely surprised if that's because they end up running rich because of the normal driving conditions they find themselves in
Your mistake is thinking that 1% savings is to help the consumer. It's for regulations like CAFE
I work in the auto industry and can 100% tell you, this sort of thing is absolutely intentional. If they could get away with it, they would make them even worse so they could make money. As long as it survives the warranty duration, that is all they care about. Anything after that is profit.
I worked in the engine rebuilding trade in the 70s. Many teardowns revealed engines in serviceable condition except for the failure of the iron camshaft timing gear with molded plastic / nylon teeth around the perimeter.. I guess the idea was to make engine quieter, and it was great until the teeth crumbled.
Having worked with engineers, this is most likely gross incompetence rather than malice. The engineers know it's a bad idea, but the higher ups think they know better than the engineers, and guess who signs the paychecks. It's not designed to force you to have to repair it, it's just stupidity running the engineering department rather than actual engineers.
@@Bitterrootbackroads That happened to my 1976 Ford Torino (351 Windsor). IIRC the camshaft timing gear was aluminum with the nylon teeth. Fortunately, it jumped timing in my driveway and fixing it involved merely replacing the timing set with all-metal gears, lining up the marks, and putting it back together. That engine ran for many more miles...
@@richardmillhousenixonand here is the explanation why Boeing is so bad at the moment. Yes you need to make sure you can make money. But you also need to make sure that the product you make is not a death trap.
Next stop... plastic timing chains, maybe from VW. Oh how they love plastic engine parts.
I am working in the automotive industry and you are 100% right! What helps
1) really only using certified genuine oil
2) using only geniune belts
3) not adding additional additives
4) reduce change Service to 10k-12k
5) not running engine too hot
6) using good fuel higher than 98oct
… Tier1 suppliers optimized the belt material after initial issues to increase lifespan, but it does not completely solves the issue.
Or changing the timing belt before the service interval for replacing them, probably every 100,000 km or 62,100 miles.
Love your content, man. I've been watching for years, and I am so fucking glad that you haven't quit despite not getting nearly as much attention from the algorithm as you deserve.
As car enthusiast and somebody who intends to attend university for mechanical engineering, this content being so unique (I've never even heard of a lot of these topics you bring up) and so easily digestible will not have only been a key role in making me knowledgeable, but also will have been a major reason for me even beginning in the first place.
This content is consistently interesting, thought-provoking, and explained in a way that made young me able to understand. Without this channel, there would be A LOT less content to fuel my curiosity and inform me. Who knows if I'd even care for engineering without you. For that, I am so grateful.
And, when I finally get some money once I'm old enough to get a job, I fully intend to support this channel and your work for all of the amazing things you've done for me. Good luck in all your ventures, D4A, and thank you for everything.
Thank you so much for that comment
@@d4a Of course! Have a good day/night, dude. (No clue about your timezone lol)
@@StryderFiHe's GMT+1 or +2 (somewhere in central/eastern Europe)
☝️ He said what we're all thinking. ☺
@@mnxs Ah, then it would be "day". Thank you!
If you want to avoid these kinds of problems, check out the front of the car. If there is a circle on it that contains four pie parts alternating between white and blue, slowly back away and run as fast as possible when you are out of sight.
How about if there are four rings overlapping each other? 😃
@@TassieLorenzo run four times as fast 😁 especially when there’s a V8 under the hood 🫣
@RustOnWheels it's not a pie it's a stylised propeller running at speed. Doooooh...😒🙈
If you see a three pointed star built within the last thirty years, do not be fooled.
@@PaganPriestUK1234 That's the problem... they made an aircraft that can't fly.
Even with all the data proving that wet belts are a bad idea, yet car manufacturers continued to use it, in my mind is further proof that most cars nowadays are only being built to outlast the warranty period. The warranty period might as well be the guaranteed 'lifetime of the engine/car' at this point.
Capitalism goes brrr
GM could learn from this video evidence; guess their main goal is profit when their 1.3 liter 3 cylinder fail @ end of warranty, crush car & replace.
That's how warranties work in every industry. Any failure during the warranty period is considered _premature failure,_ but if it dies one day after the warranty period it is _past its expected lifespan._ The manufacturer doesn't want the product to fail under warranty because then they pay for it out of pocket, but they don't want it to last much longer than the warranty either because well... Any failure after the warranty period is _past its expected lifespan_ so why make something that works _too well_
@@Creepus_Explodus This is actually wrong. Many cars are leased out to corporations and the leasing company wants good residuals, which means that they must not be perceived as being unreliable when sold second hand.
Modern cars are expected to be reliable for 6 years, i.e. twice the typical lease. Over here Mercedes dealers will buy cars under 6 years old. Go over...well, I know someone who foolishly bought an Audi TT when she retired intending to keep it. After 6 years it started to get expensive and she then found out what the value was. No more Audis, the trade in didn't cover a used Polo.
@@kristoffer3000Yeah, the cars made in socialistic systems were so much better, right?
My relatives had a Fiesta where the timing belt broke at 48,000km. Vehicle was 4 years old, maintenance only at the dealer.
After a bit of back and forth it went under warranty, but they then sold the car and bought an older Toyota Yaris.
I have a 2002 toyota yaris. The engine runs fine.
I have a 2004 Toyota Echo. 380,000km. Still running good. No timing chain noise.
@@glennmerriman8382 Good to know, ty!
@@TheBlackbrrd I have a 2004 Fiesta and it works great...
What's your point?
I worked as an automotive prototyping technician from the 80s to 2014 , for five different manufacturers : I saw the skill level of designers decrease year after year ... When you explain something to them , because you have experience , they don't listen to you and only trust their calculation software ... I don't think this was done on purpose. it's just stupidity . I have hundreds of examples...
Yep. In my industry, I’m a machinist, engineers love to think the world exists on paper and that they’re genius when they come up with designs that are literally impossible to machine or with tolerances too tight to work in the real world. It takes one hell of a lot of intelligence to make up for a little bit of experience. Experience usually wins in the real world.
@@phoenixcustomrifles1430 Yes , that's exactly it ... they live in a virtual world where everything works , but only on computer screens . they only listen to the technicians once they realize their mistakes ... calculation and drawing software only works well with people who have real knowledge in a real world
This was definitely done on purpose and the purpuse is to fail.
Everything is engineered to fail nowadays because manufacturers don't make any money on things that last forever. They make money selling new stuff and selling spare parts.
Please share 😂
I’ve just had to take the front end off my Renault master , radiator out and remove starter motor to get at the hole to screw the timing pin in to lock the crankshaft to change the timing chain, and remove top engine mount 🤷 engineers now come on a dingy 😂
Please somebody give this Man a raise!
Please can we quantify good information on the basis of something other than money?
@@exothermal.sprocket beer can?
@@Fabiek3 Having worked half my life in a lot of difference places, I can say, raises are seldom given to anyone who's doing exceptional jobs.
@@exothermal.sprocket money is some sort of measuring tape for any job, so... If You wan't to live in world without money i don't know if it's even possible this day. Cheers mate!
@@exothermal.sprocketSo do you, or do you not care about money?
This is like diesel Gate. This is Timing belt Gate.
It's GovernmentGate. This is the end result of the government trying to centrally plan energy consumption like the Soviet state. And all the stupid people are supposed to get mad at the manufacturer rather than the guilty party, the govt.
Except diesel gate had nothing to do with reliability
@@thedopplereffect00 correct but it was a scandal was it not? And this is a scandal engineers new this belt will destroy the engine so it is timing belt Gate in my opinion.
Reason for Disel Gate was different, why its pop up its another story :)
@@elriv76 diesel gate is not a story it's a fact so is Watergate.
This is why I always laugh when people say “just use the oil recommended in the manual, do you think you know more than the engineers?”
Then I see crap like this, and I think yeah, maybe I do.
We’ve been making engines for a long time, there are zero excuses for premature timing chain/belt failure. Period.
"do you think you know more than the engineers?”
How much the engineers know is irrelevant if decisions they might choose are overridden by accountants.
Years ago, car manufacturers attempted to build brand loyalty by making long-lasting robust products. Today, they have no interest in that. Just maximize shareholder value for next fiscal quarter. The future is someone else's problems.
Years ago, think it was in the 70s, some manufacturers were using nylon coatings on the teeth for timing chain sprockets to cut down on noise. Needless to say, was a bad idea.
@@Ratkill9000 Ford 302 self-destruct mechanism
The enshittification. It's bad, they know it's bad, they know we know it's bad, but they'll keep making things worse because they 'know better.'
Nah they just know they have us by the balls. They will do whatever they want, laugh at us, then take our money. We are clowns for their amusement. We are just cattle to them.
Middle managers will kill us all.
Or because it theoretically has less emissions.
Actully ....THEY DON'T CARE !!! It's all about the BOTTOM LINE ! ! !
@@katyfox2749 yeah, the "they know better" is more readily a "we know where to save money within acceptable losses and regulations, yet sell for the same or more"
Do not apologise for, or ever shy away from your comments towards the end of this video! I am certain that many people feel exactly the same and have had enough.
You are absolutely right that too many times, people do not do the right thing. They do not do the human thing in the way they act towards others. Perversely though in the case of wet belts, they are actually being human by demonstrating the worst of human traits…. greed; personal benefit at the cost of everyone else.
I am a mechanical engineer and the owner of a wet belt Ford Transit. Such conflict and 10,000km oil changes 😮
Agreed. You are doing a very good job making the wet belt fiasco more widely known and holding the relevant car manufacturers to account.
Here again, yet another proof that taking YHWH out of the public eye leads directly to Godless behaviors: greed, selfishness, evil. Get God back in your life and the lives of your family and friends
@@gdaytrees4728 It was just the case before...because.
I think there is a significant chance that these manufacturers promoted their accountants and gave them the title of "engineer" instead.
Financial engineer??
Ford's engineers come from the accounting department. Italian and French engineers are just stupid.
Ferrari's engines for example were designed by idiots. Every single part is terribly designed and put in awful places. You can't even access the crankshaft without taking the entire engine apart. I'd be ashamed to to sign my name on those projects if I was them.
Saving a few pennies yet they waste BILLIONS on EV without even doing BASIC RESEARCH to see if anyone wants one. TOTAL LUNACY, I guarantee the accountants saw the PAPER PROFITS in EVS and couldnt refuse building a PAPER CAR that will never sell
@@johnbaker1256 😂😂😂😂😂 😂😂😂😂
@@fladave99 "This growth can be attributed to sales of full and mild hybrids, which grew by 21% in Q2 2024 vs. Q2 2023. Hybrid sales growth was particularly apparent in France (40%) and Spain (27%). The hybrid market share in the EU top 5 now stands at 32%, meaning that almost one in three vehicles now sold in the region are hybrids."
Ford was told that a dry sump dual clutch transmission would fail miserably. They demanded it be produced anyway, and it was such a miserable failure that the focus and Fiesta went from best selling to discontinued models in the US
This is amazing timing, a week ago I was showing my best friend a wet belt in a Ford EcoBoost. He thought it was insane as well. The thing is a timing chain in an engine with regular oil changes can often outlast the car. I have an GMC Atlas 4.2 and it has over 330,000km on the original timing chain and I'm still driving it, let's see your wet belt do that. 🙄
As someone who is working in the automotive industry, I can say with confidence that this is probably gross incompetence rather than malice. Our team is currently also doing thiings that we would have solved differently, but those that decide are not engineers. It is management and sales. They hear about a technology at a convention and force engineering to implement it against their will. Sometimes they sell it before we even heard about it. It was probably like that at Ford, it was certainly like that at VW, Opel.. after somone from sales heard the 1% fuel savings number.
Same in software engineering. Some idiot promises and sells high heaven with 'Tec X', then they come to the software architects/programmers "So you need to do this, because I sold it and that is our most profitable deal in years."
This is malice in my opinion
Why not both ?
Wet belts last an extremely long time in the Ford 2.7 but you don't see anyone complaining about it 🤔
What you are describing there is in my opinion malice by all accounts. Hearing the engineer say this is detrimental and doing it anyway sounds like malice.
We had a Vauxhall Grandland and it's was on it's 3rd belt in 46k miles.
The first one began degrading and was blocking the oil system.
We change that at 24k miles and had to flush the oil system.
We replaced the 2nd belt at 43k miles with 19k miles on the belt and it had also began to degrade requiring another flush of the oil system.
Our Vauxhall garage is now recommending changing them every 15k miles.
We sold it asap...
I'm currently researching which car to get when our Hyundai i30 needs replacing, and called into a Vauxhall garage yesterday, where there were several Grandlands and Crosslands. As far as I could tell, these huge vehicles all had 1.2l petrol engines, turbocharged, but tiny nonetheless. We definitely won't be buying anything with a wet belt, or a tiny engine.
@@1man1guitarletsgo you could have a look at a Mazda 3. Not sure, but I think they still use downtuned larger displacement engines.
@@mjouwbuis Thanks, will do.
@@mjouwbuis yes, the Mazdas come with 2-2.5l n/a high compression engines, giving them similar performance and fuel economy to smaller turbocharged ones
@mjouwbuis I had a 2005 Mazda 3 with the 2.0 and 5 speed. That was such an excellent car. I took it on several high speed long distance trips and it didn't blink. And I mean 200+ miles averaging 90+ mph
You just did a great job of laying out the facts. As a retired mechanic it greatly disturbs me that the manufactures seem to not care once the garbage they produce is out of factory warranty (Ford Motor Company). Now also GM with their 3.0 liter Duramax Diesel that uses a wet belt to drive the engines oil pump. To replace this belt the transmission has to be removed! This is why we as consumers need to do a lot of research before buying. Your video is an important part of the information us consumers need to make an informed decision. Thank you.
D4A, another great video my friend!
I'm a motor mechanic, an old motor mechanic.
These kinds of things pop up from time to time and have done over the years.
What HAS changed, is that the manufacturers don't care like they used to.
They used to care that they had released an inferior product and would work hard to make the replacement better.
An example on a personal note, I owned a Spanish built D40 Nissan Navara 2.5 diesel. They became renowned for timing chain failures in the Renault engine after using fine pitch chains and plastic guides to reduce engine noise. (Mine was replaced by Nissan as a 'good will' warranty claim at 113,000km).
I now own a D23 Navara and it says in the owners handbook, timing chain replacement due at 300,000km. If that chain fails before then, Nissan will need to be very clear why it has, and why I should be responsible for replacing it.
I agree that the attitude of manufactures have gone downhill to our detriment. It appears their strategy has changed to accommodate this: they are selling on features more and more, capitalizing on the current popularity of high tec electronic gadgets. Their advertising pushes all the convenience features indoctrinating the younger generations that they deserve to be pampered by their vehicle. Does anyone repair their own vehicle anymore ???
The situation is made worse by the ridiculous extent fuel mileage regulatory requirements have pushed. Regulations are so far past the point of diminishing returns the life cycle cost of hardware is probably greater than the fuel cost improvement. The auto manufacturers actually like this, as it makes the service lifetime shorter for all manufactures !
Honda had a change of heart during the last few model years of the civic. The K20C2 engine used in the civic sedan and hatch is naturally aspirated, port injected, uses a timing chain, and is offered with a 6-speed manual. Doesn't make much power but it's almost bulletproof
In 2024, creating an engine with similar functionality to the original K series they released 24 years ago is only impressive because everyone else is making such overly complicated disposable junk nowadays.
You silly belt vs chain people! We all know that timing GEARS are king!
@@averyalexander2303 In 2024 using such engine is blatant stupidity, since it offeres worse performance, worse fuel efficiency and worse noise, vibrations and harshness than competition. It MIGHT be more reliable for customers in used car segment, however it offeres 0 (zero) advantages for the customers that... actually buy these cars.
Too bad it's gone now. Shitty 1.5 turbo only. The naturally aspirated engine from the Fit with a turbo slapped onto it and only direct injection.
@@theocmaniakThis thinking is exactly how we got disposable unreliable cars.
I'm an automotive technician and I was working on a 2019 Ford ecotec it came in with low oil pressure. I found that belt material from the belt driven oil pump Had plugged the oil pickup tube. The vehicle only had 60 thousand miles
I watch the motor disassembly UA-cam channel "I do Cars". In a recent video disassembling a 1.0L 3-cylinder Ford Eco-sport I saw this wet belt design for the first time. I was Gobsmacked. I had no Idea this was a thing, or that it had been going on for so long!
8:08 DING DING DING DINGGGGG. This is why car manufacturers consider wet belt a success.
Exactly, they want people to buy new engines
Planned obsolescence.
Ford products are garbage this is one more reason why. Even if you wanted to drop the oil pan and clean the pickup tube the Oil pan are "single use" . Ford robs people blind and they would be out of business if they didn't have fleet accounts.
12:50 Our Insignia gave us the "Stop Engine Immediately" message on a freezing cold morning start. It was the pump 'O' ring. We got it replaced straight away before damage could be done.
thank god i did not buy an opel, i dont get how they could screw up an o-ring after this many years of knowledge
You know; that is actually a Fiat engine, which they used on their (GM) cars!
You're one of the very few owners to recognize the emergency convaid by that simple warning light. Most people would put time considerations ahead of the state of their vehicle...
@@jayasankabandara4792doesn't matter who design or built the engine. It was flawed from the start.
Sell it,, don't waste time with that car. Not only the O-ring will fail, but also the oil pump and many more. Remove it till it still works, those are nightmare engine to rebuild after that and with big chance of failing again.
I am working daily on the 1.2T Pure Tech from Peugeot. It is absolute shit. We had more than 100 instances of premature belt replacement in 2023. And by premature I dont mean like you said around 100k km, I mean 35-50k km. The earliest was around 20k if I remember correctly. Peugot has in time done four things to combat this:
The service interval was reduced from 30.000km to 20.000km, the belt interval was reduced to 60.000km, checking the belt is now a point on the yearly insepaction, with the tool you showed, the wet belt design was replaced by a chain in late '23.
And you must use a special Oil for (in Germany) 30€ per litre. Every service.
😂, enjoying the diagnostic? Thoes engine came new 2017 ish, engine problem starts not even reach 10000km.
Had this engine, serviced by book at the dealership. Even had the belt replaced prematurely due to cracking. Still, at 110k km the engine was done due to running dry (pieces of rubber blocked the oil pathways). THe dealer was quite frank by telling me they could in theory get me a new short block and fix it but in practice I should get rid of the car and get something else because the engine is total crap made for 100-150kkm. It was at time when they stopped selling diesels in EU and only had this engine in their lineup so they basically told me to buy car from someone else.
Have the car with that engine. The belt failed around 60kkm and engine was repaired under warranty.
awesome content !
as an automotive technician i agree 100% with facts provided .
the worse thing is that customers believe mechanics try to scam them .
when oil pressure starts dropping we suggest taking off the oil pan to inspect/ clean the oil pick up ,which is kinda costly .
they do not agree 🤷♂🤷♂
Our company had a fleet of vehicles from a rental company who managed the fleet, and most cars had engines with wet belts. There were numerous cases of engine failure with 60K km because of debris from the wear of the belt clogging the oil ducts, pumps and so on. To make it worse, the maintenance was performed by third party workshops (not the car brand workshops) selected by the rental company, and the oil approved by the rental company was not the correct specification as the car's manual...
You left us on clifhanger, whats happened next?
This sounds like 1.0 Ecoboost or PSA Puretech
Oil type doesn't matter. That's just a Ford lie to attempt escaping fault.
@@MiGujack3 It was a 1.5 3-cylinder from Ford. Overall a good engine, with good power and fuel economy, but with this terrible maintenance issue
@@AndriusKamarauskas The rental company had to replace engines on some cars, but eventually due to several other problems with maintenance of that car model, the management at my company demanded an action to avoid lost time and ensure safety for the employees, then they anticipated the renewal of the contract to replace the fleet with another model (fortunately, the new car uses timing chain instead)
IMO, any vehicle that has a rubber timing belt should be a non-interference engine.
traditional belts are very dependable, provided you change belt and tensioner regularly. Belt kits are inexpensive, and the job is no big deal.
@@jmbpinto73eh, accessing the belt to change it is a pain in the behind, especially in modern cramped engine compartments, and particularly in small cars with even less space. Of course there's experience involved, and I'm not a mechanic, but let's just say I do not look forward to when my car will soon need its belt changed - and I believe I've heard from plenty mechanics that they don't like the clearance around modern engines' belts, either.
@@mnxs That's not a problem with the belts though, that's a universal problem with engines becoming more complex and compact. If you think a timing belt with bad access is bad, try a timing chain.
Agreed. My Camry has a non-interference engine. The timing belt snapped at 180,000 back in 2015. Belt was replaced for $500 and the car is still driving at 250,000.
Interference engines are more and more the standard type as they squeeze out another 1% in fuel economy. As this is the case, the vast majority of engines would have chains of the manufacturers cared. Honda uses only interference engines these days and went to chains when the numbers showed that customers were replacing heads prematurely. They care and make the best performing and most reliable engines on the planet. That’s a tough combination, but they manage to pull it off.
Ironically the only real solution to combat planned obsolescence is consumer awareness, this video being a prime example.
Now it's up to us viewers to do our job and tell all of our friends and family to boycott wet timing belts.
Hahaha. Bro every car is fcked. Cars have thousands of parts. If they don't get you in one area they will just get you in another.
We as consumers have very little power. Auto manufacturers have the USA by the balls.
If we don't have cars our society crumbles because we don't have good public transportation. We are completely and utterly dependent on them, so they can do whatever they want and get away with it. We have no bargaining power.
Or extend te min warranty for things like cars to 10 years. 2 years is a joke for something like a car....
@@faustinpippin9208But then the manufacturers think of terms and conditions like the car has to be serviced by their own dealerships or refuse people who went over their service interval distance by a small bit. It's better not to buy any of the cars that have one.
Isn't it fun chasing the tail of reactionary economic pressures with moronic manufacturers?
every video you make make me happier and happier about my good ol' 2009 2.2 i-ctdi honda diesel. 300 000km and working like a charm, starting in less than 3s even at -15° i just love this Civic and this engine and now i understand perfectly why.
Regulatory Powers sadly can't keep up with changes or updates in the industry, so sometimes it's the customer who need to force changes for the better, by voting with its wallet. But the regular consumer isn't qualified enough to overview things like this. That's the reason why unbiased reviewers and journalists like here on youtube are so important.
In most cases consumers are just to damn lazy to get an overview, they will just buy any ugly crossover with ridiculously large wheels. I'm still baffled how people will buy a >30k€ car without searching google for 5 minutes, take the Peugeot PureTech engine for instance, they have been notorious for belt failure for the last 12 years yet people will buy it without any hesitation or personal research.
Honda also decided to use wet timing belt in Honda City 1.0 turbo which is one of the best selling here in Thailand. Timing belt de-lamination has becoming commonly found problem in this model as it older.
This problem costs a lots money from the users since the pieces of de-laminated belt usually clogged VTEC solenoid strainer or engine oil pump strainer which caused oil starvation problem and broke the engine.
BTW, Thank you for good video!
I think they also used this "technology" on the Honda Civic 1.0 Turbo sold in Europe
But i would expect Honda should react better and repair all of them at no cost.
was going to say this, it's also sold in EU and ofc with the sames issues. Engine code P10A2 for thoses interested.
@@stefanmargraf7878 Yes if you pay for their expensive extended warranty. No otherwise. I had a month to go on my extended on a civic when mine destroyed itself for a 2nd time.
I think they only used that belt in the 1.0T not in the diesel engine. The diesel had a chain.
Thanks for the video. Many people owning these cars aren't aware of the wet belt peculiarities. PSA reverted to timing chains but kept the wet belt in the oil pump.
Yeah, makes sense for non-critical and easily replaced items like oil pumps to save a few bucks
WHAT !?
Just looked it up, i cannot find any pictures of the gen3 engine with wet belts, only chains on the valve train and the oil pump.
@@myne00 no as the particles from the belt clog the oil system anyways
@@rubberduck4966 clearly sarcasm doesn't always hit its mark online
For those wondering you can get a chain kit for these now, comes with everything to assemble it properly.
Please remember that most of those engines were mostly developed before the diesel gate. At this time, European emissions standards were hitting hard, with regular and stringent updates, even if some cheated or interpreted it in some edgy ways. Bean counting design has been applied to so many engines back then, especially on the emission side of the spectrum.
Also, the market was more lively than it is today, and all manufacturers were trying to avoid echoing those development costs to the customer.
I worked as a machining engineer in camshaft/crankshaft manufacturing in the late 2010s. We had to cope with some design updates for like, -0,2 grams of CO2 per km.
Now, imagine if you follow the same search for minimal gains for a totally new design. If a design project leader was able to demonstrate he could maintain the same engine on the market for the next 2 or 3 euro emission updates, he would most certainly take the cake. So they generally stacked cheap, unproven, quick to develop solutions to obtain their results, without thinking of the aftermath.
Those consumption reductions were never meant to be perceived by the consumer, their intent was to develop a new euro compliant engine as cheaply as possible, that could be sold for many years without much updates, no matter the long term reliability. Small downsized 3 cylinders are just a plain example of their own.
What worries me the most is that they somehow have to compensate back the emission gains another way around if they bring back more reliable solutions.
Any ICE update or ground-up design is incredibly expensive for a manufacturer, and nowadays this will most definitely impact the selling cost.
One of the worst things with the wet belt on the Transit van is it sheds particles which block the oil feed to the vacuum pump - the result of this is the vehicle brakes fail when you don't expect it. One of my neighbours nearly had a very bad accident when trying to stop.
That doesn't make any sense. Vacuum is created by the intake.
@@user-yu8ur9yi9e The vacuum pump on the transit has a oil inlet with a hole about 1mm in diameter. Doesn't take much to clog it - then the pump stops working and has to be replaced.
@@user-yu8ur9yi9e Diesel engines use vacuum pumps.
@@AndyFletcherX31So ford in their infinite wisdom took an existing vacuum system that has worked for forever that has no moving parts and is free and put in a vacuum pump?! And it's $500 to replace?!
And I thought ford from the early 2000s were bad...
@user-yu8ur9yi9e turbo engines don't make consistent vacuum, the intake is pressurized and the vaccum infront of the turbo isnt enough on even gas engines now. So they fit mechanical vacuum pumps to run the power brake booster no matter the engine boost level, this isn't a ford thing it's a all turbo engine thing. Diesels have had them forever and now gas engines have them.
My neighbour just bought a new Citroen C4 with a 3-cylinder wet-belt engine and it runs so hot that the tops of the front wings become almost too hot to touch. His new car replaces another wet-belt C4 for which he was quoted £1200 to replace the belt, and yet he bought another. He's a Citroen devotee since the days when the Peugeot Citreon made pretty good diesels.
Ah yes. 2.0 HDi. 136kms (or 110 in 8v head). 5L/100Km and it does over 500k kms without much problems. And they can be easly remapped (136km -> 170km) with even more fuel saving. I was able to get... 4.3L/100kms doing constant 90km/h.
The Xantia was the last car Citroen made that deserved the Citroen name 😞.
He will get the Puretech curse sooner or later.
This is the best video describing the problems of wet rubber belts!!
You sir are awesome and honest.
The difference between older engineering and modern engineering is simple.
In the older days the working theroy was: how can we make this better and more reliable.
The new engineering working theroy is: just make it to last past the warranty period.
Its so sad... And the comsumer always pays the price.
Keep making these awesome videos!
Thanks for sharing this. I only found out that wet belts were a thing about a year ago, couldn't believe that anyone could think that this was a good idea. Personally I think that OEM's should be held accountable under consumer legislation and be required to offer a chain drive retrofit at cost and with free installation. To me the oil pump drives should always have the most durable and reliable drive technology of any drive within an engine, to choose a wet belt is guarantee of catastrophic engine failure at some point in the life of that engine, unless you do oil changes at 5000 km AND you are very lucky. MADNESS!
The process you describe at 10:40 is exactly what happened to a friend of mine who had purchased a very young Ford Focus estate 1 litre. It had less than 60.000 km on the clock when a blocked oil strainer left them stranded.
The engine survived but the cost of cleaning up, replacing the belt was close to 2k, on a car they had paid close to 30k for a little over a year earlier….
Man, I watch a lot of your videos (M.E. here) and I just want to let you know, I appreciate your passion and bluntness immensely. You don’t try to fake reality in any way, I don’t know a better way to put it. Love from California.
Just Ford doing Ford things.
14:29 [insert meme of guy being thrown out of office building here]
17:04 Look into the "competency crisis."
For the life of me i cannot understand why we go backward. Vehicles have tripled in price yet we move backward in reliability. Peak really seemed to be the early 2000s.
Greenwashing! Exactly!
Government fuel economy regulations.
When a lot of car manufacturers were bailed out in the Obama era they had to bend over to fuel economy and safety regs which mean every car costs 50k now. Before 2008 cars were fine.
Cars haven't increased in price, money simply lost so much value that you need twice the amount compared to 20 years ago.
These days one (or three) 15" screens and a Snapdragon processor is considered a feature in a motor vehicle. This costs money! Yes there has been price gouging since 2020, but before that it was cutting costs on mechanical parts to allow more on "attractive" features like the touchscreens and ambient lighting and so on (and of course all the radar, cross traffic alert stuff that is more or less mandatory under ENCAP and has a cost associated with it too).
"For the life of me i cannot understand why we go backward. Vehicles have tripled in price yet we move backward in reliability."
Very simple really. Reliability is no longer a design objective. Decades ago, manufacturers had incentive to build reliable cars as that helped build brand loyalty. People bought cars because they had a reputation for reliability.
Now all that matters is maximizing shareholder value for the next financial quarter. Build it cheaper, sell it for more. As long as it outlasts the warranty, nothing matters beyond that.
19:14 all it takes for evil to succeed is good men to do nothing
I heard in the medias that those engines were having issues, and thought that it was probably badly maintained vehicules, or just a bunch of people with bad luck.
It was very interesting to hear the actual technical explanation behind that.
I salute you for speaking out about this.
Some people might never know, if you didn't.
I grew up on good ol American iron, and am happy with it, but some people just buy what the dealers try to sell them with no thoughts beyond the fact that a person is trying to sell it to them.
Most of those people don't even think about, let alone understand the issue you just addressed, or any other issue, for that matter.
They pay for it, they put gas [or diesel, or electricity] in it, and drive it until it quits, and then just get another one, and never even think about such issues as 'reliability' and the likes.
F-150 2.7 ecoboost, oil pump is belt driven, belt is inside the engine oil lubricated.
Worse still, its at the back of the engine block, where the transmission must be removed to access the belt.
Probably the most reliable wet-belt engine on the Planet. That thing is an anomaly.
2.7/3.0 EcoBoost and the 1.5L 3cyl EcoBoost, as well as the 2018+ 1.0L EcoBoost all have wet oil pump belts and timing chains for the cams
@@YZJBi have a 20 focus with the 1.5 😬
And the 2.7 is somehow a very stout and reliable engine
5:27 Renault 1,2 and 0,9 tce engines have timing chains.
1,5dci has dry timing belt, i have 2 from different ages and power. Dry belt.
we have to fix the whole market , not only the market of cars.
It's fixed alright, for the investors side it 's working out great!
The first I ever heard of a wet belt was when I was reading about the devolopment of the GM 6cyl inline mini Duramax diesel, which has a wet belt driving the oil pump on the back of the engine, requiring removal of the transmission to get to it. I thought this was crazy then, I was not aware of all of these other motors, world wide, that also use wet belts. Looks like a good aftermarket business to design and market chain drives as replacement (flat toothed metal chain possibly) on at least the more expensive of these engines. This is truly insane engineering. Thank you VERY much for showing me the details and actual truth about these belts.
I have owned two Ford products, a Lincoln Continental and an E-150 van. While both had steel oil pans, they apparently were painted with a coating which allowed road salt and moisture to work it's way under and eat through the pan, causing the oil to leak out. I repaired each in turn with a material from an auto parts store which reduced the leaks to an occasional drip and got rid of the vehicles. Part of the price we pay to live in the rust belt Thanks, Ford
Your work you put into this is so clear!
These bots are almost as annoying as wet belts
16:50 ff.: Preach on brother. Preach on. It's indeed important to talk about such madness in detail.
As far as I know the k9k 1.5 dci Renault diesel engine has not wet polymer timing belt. In all its variants , is polymer but not wet.
I have a 2016 K9K engined Dacia Logan MCV car, fantastic on fuel and it is indeed a dry belt 👌 I work in agriculture and the wet belt scam mystifies all of me and my colleagues. A tractor manufacturer trying this blindingly obvious planned obsolescency would lose generations of customers overnight - by trying to fleece them this hard! So, so, so very dumb!
“Garbage technology“ - so true! This was the deciding factor I had when I selected Mazda CX-3 over the Peugeot 2008.
Hah I thought bout buying a Mazda Cx3 but it was too cramped for me.
Long story short I bought Ford Ecosport with 2.0 duratec(basically mazda engine xD) and 6f15 gearbox. Ohnestly the best combo for this small car and I would not touch ford 1.0 with 10m pole.
It is kinda sad when fun cars are getting "short stick" of bad engine/trans combo.
As a Renault mechanic, non of our engine's has a "wet" timing belt, 1.5 dci has normal dry timing belt and the gasoline 1.2 / 0.9 are chain driven.
Does that extend all the way up to the newest Dacias?
I like the use of gears to drive the two camshafts in the 1.5 dci compared to the short chain in the PSA 1.5 BlueHdi that is prone to break and expensive to replace.
Thankyou, my father has 1.2tce and that's my understanding too.
well the 1.2 tce (h4bt) wasn't a real success... But the following one (1.3tce) is better
@@justincredible5406 more like all the way down lmao
6:23 cue my dad getting a €4300 bill because the vacuum pump of our B-Max (with the 1.0 EcoBoost) locked up and jumped the timing (and that's with a 25% discount because the bill already exceeded the market value of the car!)
Had a chat with my mechanic weeks ago - he needed to rebuild a Stellantis/Peugeot engine and told me about the wet belt and very specific lubricants needed to maintain that system - i immediately went WTF - though i have no education in that field and had never thought much about the interaction between rubber and oil.
The only thought i automatically had was "Rubber comes apart in oil" - and here, "my youtube education" shows me that even an IT guy might have had the right gut feeling.
I´ll hold on to my 335,000km volvo for another decade or two...
My ford Ranger 2.0 Bi-turbo use this timing belt belt dip in oil engine. The manual said to replace it at 240,000Km but I heard that a large number truck of the same model have issue of timing belt break before reaching 200,000Km. So, on my 165,000Km oil change, I decided to have the timing belt change as well. And sure enough, the old timing belt the coms out of my truck had a lot of crack on its rubber. My mechanic told me I made the right called, the original timing belt wouldn't last another 1000Km.
Exactly what I have been thinking since I heard Fords Ecobust motors were running their belts in oil.
Just put in a much clearer and coherent manner than I ever could.
Great video.
Only the very small engines. The 2.0, 2.3, 2.7, and 3.5 liter engines have chains.
1.0 and 1.5 and 1.6 wet belts?
@@exothermal.sprocket correct
I agree the idea of wet timing belt is endlessly stupid. So many people told manufacturers it is a bad idea. Yet they still did it. Obviously for profit, but not only, because they were able to whitewash this stupid idea with ecology (while in fact it is not).
Nevertheless, the problem is that we do not have enough competition on the car market (with the exception of Tesla and some of the chineese manufacturers, which bring other problems to the table). This is due to the fact that manufacturing entry level is exceptionally high and industry is over regulated. The second thing is, I am glad that there is a class action lawsuit against Stellantis for 1.2 Pure Tech, but other manufacturers should be sued as well. We need to bring back the consumer market by increasing the competition and increasing the consumer awareness - and this is something this great video does. Thank you!
Informative video with good visuals. I recently changed the timing belt in my Toyota 6cyl 1HZ diesel engine. It was quite an easy job for a couple of hours of my time and $95AUD Toyota timing belt kit. The belt that came out was in good condition, without cracks or damage. The only sign of wear I could see was on the contact surfaces which had a dull appearance mostly from the tensioner.
To be fair the 1HZ is one of the easiest engines to change the timing belt on. I've got a timing belt to do on a Sofim 8140.43P in my project Santana PS-10, and that's a bit more work!
Nice to see you do a 180 from your "companies aren't evil" video. They might just have been inept when they first did this but they became "evil" when they kept doing it. There's lots of this in many industries and the current state of things is outrageous but there is finally some push back, we'll have to wait and see if it achieves anything. Not to put this on you but this widespread "I don't want to be negative" feeling is how we got here, you should be negative when you have a reason to be.
What I'll be doing is fixing my 16year old car, which has never broken down, even if it's not financially viable to do so as I'm sure it will last 16 more years if, worse case scenario, I spend half the cost of a new car on it and I'm pretty sure the new car won't last 16 years.
The companies are behaving badly because the government destroyed their profit margins with fuel economy regulations. This all comes back to government central planning.
@@gregorymalchuk272excuse me, but have you seen the climate lately? Emission standards are necessary and inevitable. It is sad that cars become more expensive, but I prefer that, than living in a mad max style world with collapsed weather. I know, cars are not the sole emitters of GH gas, but we need to battle it from all fronts.
@@gregorymalchuk272 yes blame everything on the government and not on the greedy manufacturers that hain directly from this kind of practice.
If it was really the case that the manufacturers are doing this because of environmental regulations, then why are they going back to normal dry belts and why doesn't every engine have a wet belt?
@@arthurdefreitaseprecht2648 Did you not watch the video? Engines that self destruct at 100,000 miles are NOT good for the climate. We had Geo Metros in the 1990s getting 54 mpg. We've gone backwards. The government is now using fuel economy, emissions, and safety regulations to stealth ban the internal combustion engine, and to spike carbon emissions from remanufacturing and make everything miserable in the process.
@@maxiferrari08 Because the cost of the wet belt lawsuits and warranty claims exceeded the 1% fuel economy benefit toward not getting fined millions under CAFE regulations.
It should be noted that some of the most reliable engines ever put into cars came with DRY timing belts. Toyotas 1uz 2uz and 3uz all used dry belts and all of those engines are documented to go well over 300k miles with just basic maintenance and there are some examples with over 1 million miles. Of course these engines are gasoline hungry V8s but its arguably better for the environment to keep older, less fuel-efficient cars on the road than endlessly manufacturing new cars that get thrown out after 150k miles.
Keeping an older vehicle on the road is not a clear black/white situation. It is beneficial to get a newer car if you are reducing your consumption, the payoff time varies obviously depending on the fuel consumption reduction
Nissan vans (truck chassis V6/v8) for sale with over 400K mi and going strong. It's almost as if timing chains are amazing 😂.
But manufacturing new cars with a lifetime of 5 years boosts BNP more than some annoying sensible person using the same car for 15+ years.
Governments and corporations do not give a single shit about the environment or people, all there is is profit, or the illusion of productivity.
Wasn't Ford also the manufacturer who connected the Oil pump with a oil soaked rubber belt deep into the motor? To change this belt you have to remove and disassemble the motor, costing thousands of Euros to replace a 10 Euro item every 30 000 to 40 000 kilometres.
Yes they were lol
Imagine you start your engine on a cold day, the oil that the belt goes through would be like maple syrup.
@@finleymakee4850Name the engine they did that in .
@@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391 If you actually use the recommended oil, that isn't an issue. Both numbers need to match, because it's specifying both the warm and cold "weight" (viscosity) of the oil.
All those pros you mentioned to rubber belts are completely negated the first time you have to replace it. A properly done timing chain should last the life of an engine
I am old enough to remember the reliability of gear-driven camshafts and pushrod engines. Man, those American engines were good !
Planned obsolescence existed back then but it was achieved by body styling obsolescence ...and rust.
Even modern American pushrod engines don't use gear-driven cams though, I'm not sure why. The chain is very short, so surely it is possibly to create a design that uses a gear to drive the cam on the LS (LT) series? Sadly, instead the LS timing chain is a point of failure.
@@TassieLorenzo - True. But my Pontiac Phoenix and my 84 Fiero 4 cyl both had a gear driven cam although the cam gear was made of fiberglass.
@@cybair9341 That's the problem! You're driving real power to the camshaft and it should be through steel gears, not aluminum, fiberglass or plastic. There's also torsional vibration to consider. There's no substitute for steel gears without bushings, but that tends to make noise. So what? I'd rather have a noisy engine that works and has reduced maintenance than one that fails on the road.
I remember seeing the F150 ecoboost also has a plastic 1 time use oil sump, yep it has to be replaced if you remove it.
None of them in the f150 uses a wet belt.
Ford with it driving the oil pump, the belt deteriorates and fills the oil pick up, killing the engine. That is if it even had enough belt left to turn the oil pump. 😅
funny thing is ford says the ecoboost oil intervall is 3k km but it really is 2k km
@@motokid1492 i'm not buying a car that needs an oil change every 2 months.
@@SoulTouchMusic93then don't buy any of these small turbo engines. Because the turbo wears the oil out faster.
@@motokid1492 here the ecoboost is every 15 000km
@@justarandomguy3969 Meant miles ford says 3k miles it really is 2k miles
I remember, as a 5-year-old kid, putting an o-ring in oil to lubricate it. Somehow it expanded 2 times after 5 minutes of soaking, this experience was more than enough to make me understand that rubber and oil don't go along very well, and the engineers who designed those engines were not 5 year old.
The 3 stages of Truth.............First it is ridiculed, Second it is violently opposed, Third it is accepted as being self-evident.
The first two also apply to lies.
Likewise with non servicable parts used in domestic appliances, parts that are 100% sure to fail just outside the warranty period. It's all very carefully planned. It's all down to profit margin.
We need mandatory minimum reliability and repairability standards for cars and appliances. I have a whole list of proposals.
@@gregorymalchuk272Yes, very hard agree. If you're unfamiliar, check out the "right to repair" movement. It started within the electronics sector (you know how modern cell phones can't even have their batteries replaced without what almost amounts to major surgery), but it's spread to other consumer products, especially technology-based.
Major appliances became shit in the 90s.
t. washing machine enthusiast
That said though, Bosch/Siemens is surprisingly willing to continue supporting even their ancient machines from the late 80s onwards. You can still buy parts directly from BSH. Take that, Miele.
Sadly it'll never happen. There's no money in it products that last. It makes me sad that there's so many greenwashed initiatives while at the same time, so many products are designed to be binned after 1-5 years.
When I ran a business selling kit we designed and manufactured, we prided ourselves on the longevity and on going support for our products and built a reputation on it. It wasn't cheap though! It was great to see version 1.0 kit coming back for refurb 10 years after selling it...
honda came out with the GC160/GCV160 mower engines in the early 2000s, rubber timing belt that rode in the sump. I got out of the industry by 2012 but even to this day, I've never heard of one failing. Those were good little engines. After going through honda training school on them, they explained to us all these little things they had thought about. Like, for example, the choke lever had a nub made onto it so you could plug the fuel line with it. Everything was really designed as much as they could to make it easy to work on. I inquired about timing belt changes and while they did make the crankcase come apart in such a way you could change the belt, they said most would never need it, as it lasted the life of the engine. And, they were right, like I said, never saw one fail.
Of course, Honda was also making riding lawnmowers with timing belt driven engines back in 1985, which is just insane haha.
10 years on the wet belt in my gx25. Crazy how good these things are. Regularly see them with 25 years on them on fbm. But i bet it has something to do with the hp:belt ratio. Probably much better on these than cars.
It's CRAZY that now when looking to buy a used car/van etc, that you don't JUST need to look at service intervals, vehicle history, owners and such (the BASICS), but now whether it has a 'Wet belt' system! 🤨😒 😎🇬🇧
5:27 the Renault 1.5 dCi uses a dry timing belt, and the 1.2 TCe and 0.9 TCe use timing chains.
5:34 the VW 1.5 TSI uses a dry timing belt
5:40 the GM/Opel 1.5 turbo petrol engine has a timing chain.
16:42 the Honda 1.6 iDTEC uses a chain not a wet belt (you can even see the chain in the photo you used). It was the Honda 1.0L turbo 3 cylinder petrol engine (P10A2) which had the wet belt!
Was going to say this too, among the small displacement turbocharged engines, the 0.9tce from Renault must be one of the more reliable since it has a timing chain and multipoint injection, so less chance of admission carbon build up. Who knew old tech can still be good 😁
Correct, Renault didn't use wet belts on any engine afaik. @d4a maybe you should update the misleading info. Thanks for the video.
As a sixty-something ex-engineer i was dumbfounded that a welt belt was used in a colleagues engine (Ford 85K). Upon removing the head just about every valve was bent and an entire top end rebuild was necessary + some re-modelling of the top of the pistons! (Engine was still smooth to turn over and work colleague could not afford bottom end rebuild so we informed of possible bottom end failure and repaired/cleaned up to the point where it would run. Sad fact is a lot of younger people these days are buying vans for recreational use in the second hand market with around 100,000 miles on them - just around the mileage when these belts fail....... They have already spent most of their money on the vehicle and cannot afford garage prices on a complete rebuild = Screwed. As this Great Video suggests, AVOID!
In 40 years driving front engined Porsches, I’ve changed dozens of belts, both cam and balance. A good belt was a dry belt - period. Those belts were a big deal to replace and tension properly and of course, interference engines. I got pretty damned good at it. If I could detect any sign of oil on those belts, I knew I had much bigger issues and that they were NOW issues.
If it's not leaking it's either a Porsche or it's not an old German car😂
@@finleymakee4850 Well, it took a second to parse your odd wording, but it looks like “only Porsches do not leak” which is close to true but old German cars all leak, which of course makes no sense.
@@artysanmobile If any old car doesn't leak at least a little that's how you know you gotta add some oil or you've got a bigger problem😅
Yeah...I'll keep my 2000 Toyota Camry. Near 320,000 km and still running like new.
The Renault 0.9 tci has got a timing chain and the 1.5 dci has got a normal dry timing belt.
this should be on top
European Union is taking about circular economy; like fix it rather than replace it. Car manufacturer's complaints about Chinese invasion but they are going towards Chinese quality and Chinese are going towards premium quality.
China is trying to destroy the European and American car manufacturers with cheap imports. Especially EVs. The EU shot itself in the foot with its ridiculous EV mandate, and the US too, where China can make much cheaper EVs much quicker. Not that I care about EVs personally.
Frankly, I wouldn't trust Chinese companies one bit. Well, about as much as EU companies these days to be honest. It's a race to the bottom.
globohomo take
Thanks for bringing this up. That's what happens when bean counters run a company instead of engineers. Boeing anyone...?