Are REAL Sim Racing Titles a Thing Of The Past?
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- Опубліковано 15 лис 2023
- A question that came up when I was chatting to another sim racing UA-camr the other day and thought it worth some discussion! What are your thoughts?
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As someone whos been sim racing for 15 years. Theres never been a better time for sim racing than right now. I'm not worried about the future.
Hardware I agree, real sim titles not so much... but at least there are some coming, just no Rally of course.
I agree. The game of today are great
@@KarlGoslingwhat coming ?
I agree with you for sure I think with upcoming sim games all those extra features will come just not at release because sim racing isn't exactly cheap and mainstream but it will come
@@DrksyderAC2 for example
1 thing to say to you, Rennsport, assetto corsa 2, Le Mans game, and then this games also are still in develepment in a big way, Racerroom new big physics update, iRacing huge graphics/rain update, ACC new dlc, rFactor 2 had alot of new content, BeamNG huge updates. And them there is all de mod support. So no, we are growing big time! And yes, mainstream gaming is bigger. Maybe WRC next version will be more sim like just as dirt vs dirt rally ❤
As a console gamer on a budget, it would be nice if they catered more sims on the real side for us (we have AC, ACC and Dirt Rally 1 and 2). The console hardware is getting powerful enough to run them but we have nothing in the way of motion, handbrakes etc. Would be nice to have some sort of sim hub that can accommodate. Perhaps then they would find it easier to make games accross the platforms that can suit everybodies setups.
What are you talking about? What wheel do you have that you can't buy a hand brake for? Theustmaster has one, fanatec has one.
Yeah a good shout mate!
@@ShredhedGaming logitech?
@ShredhedGaming I use a TM wheel, there is a handbrake for it (not a budget friendly one mind, its more expensive than the wheel). What I'm saying is on console there isn't all the options for any handbrakes you want like on the PC. If that's not the case then it would be cool to know as I'd love to use one (cheap) for rally games.
Sim should be for all. Unless you're actually in the vehicle, it doesn't matter. Pc and console shouldn't matter. They're the same. WHY CAN'T BOTH LIVE TOGETHER! Don't worry. It's becoming equal. Why is that bad? Welcome to games released and not perfected.....yea allow for updates...which is bs....No such thing as COMPLETE GAME RELEASE ANYMORE. I Hate that shit yet it is the truth.
Good points,but also keep in mind, "everyone" can buy a "simple" set up but i think not much of us can afford such hitech setup like you have,,so why should they bother for that few% ? I think the developers think in that way
Yes mate spot on.
I agree with you, the pace which the simracing hardware market is developing at is so much higher compared to the software side. There are so many videos on YT about new simracing hardware, but much less about new simracing titles. But I think there are some sparks of hope on the horizon, looking at Assetto Corsa 2 or Rennsport for example
Yeah I'm hoping so mate!
No hope for Rennsport here (got the key) and we just got (the 2nd) WRC this year, Forza Motorsport and the Le Mans title should be out soon. So why this complaining? Sorry, but too many sim-racers are moaning kids with no clue about real racing or developing games, but some serious mental health problems.
for a motorsport is not a sim
@@Leynad778 all the games you speak about are arcade games. I think you missed the point and did not Watch the video.
@@fanaticracer1202That's the most ridiculous BS I've heard for a long time.
I gave up along time ago on wishing for an RBR successor, the RSF RBR lads are absolutely smashing the boundaries with that game and I’ve heard from some top tier stage creators that they’ve only scratched the surface with what’s possible so the stages that will come out in the future will only get better and better.
I enjoyed EAWRC for a season in the career it was exactly as I expected, a fun more casual friendly rally game that gives just enough for the majority of players to convince themselves it’s hardcore simulation.
I think you’ve got to understand what an amazingly small niche that you are a part of. The number of people using motion rigs and triples would be so small.
The new WRC is great by the way once you get it you’ll have a ball.
We are a small niche but still plenty big enough for hardware manufacturers to keep bring out new equipment every year... and this what worry's me, if software doesn't use it will they stop making it?!
@@KarlGosling Hmm that is a good point. Based on the amount of new hardware released just this year I’d say hardware is outpacing the games at the moment. Hopefully AC2 release next year pushes the competition that but further.
absolutely. I will buy WRC when VR works.
Being a rally game that is the one title that should support EVERYTHING
Im a console sim racer but I get to play with all the toys PC sim rig racers play with thanks to Sim hub and games with telemetry support. (i have a PC set up nearby) If this new direction makes things easier and increases the market size (helping reduce the price of some of this sim racing stuff) then I'm all for it. Telemetry data is the KEY though.
Aside from rally games, I think the sims we have are already filling most of the need. One thing I'd like to see is an iRacing level of online play without having to rent the game.
Rfactor2 is pretty decent
I think we have seen a peak in simulators like Assetto corsa, rFactor2, Race 07, Richard burns rally, Dirt Rally, It always seems the best titles come out of smaller studios that actually love motorsport with a community that passionately mod them. The big studios that make modern sims with console as priority made by people that have no motorsport knowledge will never match that.
Good point! Look at shooter games. There are also more callofduty like games dan war sims like arma3. There are some small indy dev boxing simulations. Amd them there is streetfighter, mortel combat and much more! Just not alot of people have good taste 😅
@@jobkinderen8882Not everything has to be a simulator. Simulations get pretty freaking boring when they all do, by definition, the same damn thing. Case in point, I don't care for GT3 or Nascar, recommend me something other than Assetto Corsa or Project Cars, because both are very limited.
Inversely, if I did like GT3, what actually is the incentive of buying the new half baked sim game with the same exact content when they're both doing the same thing?
I guess you're claiming Dirt rally as a sim, but just because it's a big studio with arcade handling doesn't mean they don't know anything about cars. A reminder that Gran Turismo is for car autists and created new generations of car enthusiasts. You could easily argue the same for Need for Speed or Midnight Club.
I can only speak to iRacing, as that is really all I play. But I see iRacing constantly working to improve their product. Recently they began updating graphics, and now they are going to refresh the track dynamics and overall physics of their oval racing. As iRacing has all the types of racing I could ever want to do (not big on rally) I am very happy with my experiences on iRacing.
Yeah it does cover a lot of bases, but it will get to a point where it cannot be updated any further (as all software does) and a new base sim will be needed.
@@KarlGosling Must keep in mind that a new base sim comes at the cost of needing much higher computational power and may obselete many hardware in their player base.
And this mostly for more realistic graphics.
30fps is perhaps plenty for flightsim with graphics to die for but simracing at that framerate? Simracers have much less time to admire the views ...
I do suspect that iRacing software at it's core is developed for simracing in mind (like flightsims are) and as such that it's architecture has scope for further enhancements.
I think if the rain update is rolled out we get to see what impact it will have on iRacing performance.
Interesting points Karl.
As a person who used to follow Rallying in the early years 80's to 2000's & recently deciding to get into the PC sim racing culture.
It seems (to me), the only way to stop this trend is to get a high profile driver (be it rally, F1 or other type) who is also a sim fan to do a co-lab with a games developer who can be trusted to take on the advice of such driver to produce a game, not only for consuls, but with the added features for sim rigs to enjoy.
Much like Richard Burns &, Colin Mc Crae did, but including todays modern tech.
It's a dream. But if we don't dream, we don't get.🤔
Time to hurry up and wait for Max Verstappen F1 and Sebastian Ogier Rally.
The weird part of the "console focussed" idea is how bad console variants of titles like AC, ACC, Project Cars were in comparison to their PC versions. PC versions felt loved, the console variants felt like they were chucked over the fence for a cash grab.
Assetto Corsa 2 could be a shot in the arm for the industry again assuming it fully supports mods.
About old titles - yes AC, Richard Burns etc are old (even ACC now) but I wouldn't include iRacing in that as its a service so its launch date is kind of irrelevant in a way.
I've been sim racing since Papyrus Nascar Racing was at it's peak. I have to believe there has to be at least a couple real sim racing titles in development. I haven't raced for a few years but I'm super hyped, I ordered a new NLR GTTrack and a Fanatec DD Pro bundle this morning. So I'll be back on the track in a couple weeks.
Lets hope so mate yes and welcome back!
I am not worried Karl. Tried WRC on the LowSlider today and am not convinced it's better than Dirt - ok single screen, sorry.
Bettering what's currently out there is a challenge given that we all have our favourites and participate in associated leagues.
I'm dedicated to enhancing the experience of sim racing by building "affordable" immersive platforms which transforms the user experience even with older software. AMS2 is a recent release. WRC is a bit too arcady for me on first look.
Being a big nascar fan im so excited that iracing got the nascar licenses even though itll be few yrs, the last few games have been just absolutely terrible arcadey messes, especially the last one and especially for us with wheels and rigs
The solution is simple: Pay up. Given like 1k to RBR map makers over the time I’ve been playing. Pace of change in last two years has been increasing imo in pure QoL and immersion updates. ( RBR did not even have accurate wheel rotation lock two years ago ). Ofc you can rely on enthusiasm but If you pool money you can absolutely get somebody to work with existing community to cook up solutions. RBR only has VR because one guy was given a vive headset and cooked it up over a weekend in a hotel lol.
As someone that loves racing games and wants to get into sim racing myself, the lack of sim racing titles is a massive inhibitor from me spending thousands on a rig and wheel setup, its a tough sell, if there was solid release cycles it would be a lot more tempting. Also, sim racing games like iracing have relatively small car lists that cost like 2 grand if you want to unlock, that is why Im playing Gran Turismo 7, hundreds of cars beautifully modelled, and I still feel the thrill of driving, physics aside. Something needs to change in the sim racing world to draw in a larger audience, which in turn will allow bigger budget games and the genre to grow.
That is an interesting perspective as a potential new sim racer, hadn't thought of that putting people off.
Well we have Iracing that continues to bring out updates and get better for true racing simulation
Anything EA buys, SIM Racers might as well write-off!!
Also had that tomy turbo dashboard! lol. Didn't know the name of it but only knew when you showed it here. Cool you stil have it! My mother would throw everything away...
After that a Colecovision, C64 and Amiga!
Ah mate parents where I nightmare for throwing stuff away! This was actually bought for me by my ex girlfriend last Christmas! :D
Just a pipe dream, but I’d love to see the heavy hitters from the sim hardware makers collaborate with a joint venture to develop sim software. Cut all the flashy BS and just focus on what matters. I’d be happier with a dozen cars and a few quality tracks with a focus on physics, feedback, and racing (including solid AI)…than I would be with 100+ cars I don’t care to drive.
Quality over quantity, very good point!
I think you have some valid concerns, but I also think people are putting the cart before the horse. See you are expressing your concern for titles not matching the capabilities of your equipment, but the reality is that your level of equipment is probably held by less than 5% of the overall player base on any platform. Any business (or in this case game) is going to market to the overall largest end user, which in this case would be console platform. You are 100% correct that hardware has come a long way, and the market has really been inundated. That is where I would say that is a good thing! See before any game developer/company puts the time, money and effort into features where you can have motion, tactile transducers, or any other more immersing feature that capability will need to be relatively wild spread and affordable. The issue becomes what comes first the chicken or the egg? How do you make immersing features more affordable and wild spread if there isn't a need out there. But in order to create a more widespread need someone must come to the plate bringing the capabilities into games. Someone has to step up to the plate first whether it be the hardware manufactures producing affordable equipment pushing developers to find ways to utilize it, or game developers implanting immersion features creating a need for the equipment. Your stance (which is valid) seems to be you want game developers to come out of the box with the capabilities to use the equipment and many aren't, as where I would say (maybe) hardware manufacturers need to come to market with more affordable options for motion and tactile transducers making them more widespread and forcing game titles to find ways to incorporate them into their games. It's a tough position because one side has to be the first to make a move and create a need.
on the plus side, older titles are alot easier to run in VR
Let's all go back to Tomy racing, simpler days back then. 🙂
Totally agree with what you say Karl, would be good to have a few decent titles but I expect it will be 1 or 2 like an updated iracing/AC where they've released a new version, or programmers who are also hardcore sim racers have kept developing it as a hobby.
Yeah I think thats the way it will be Barry.
I've been sim racing for a little over a year, and I cannot overstate how much I want to build a PC so I can jump onto different programs for racing and use stuff other than the Fanatec ecosystem (no hate on Fanatec, there's just better equipment out there). While yes, you have a lot of games that are made for console, but I think that helps people springboard into the deeper end of this hobby. It certainly doesn't help that Motorsports Games has imploded and taken so much capability away from the sim racing community.
Yeah true, people getting a taste on console then moving to PC.
I think the iRacing announcement about rain and updated graphics engines such as Unreal is where it's at. It sounds like rain is imminent, but the graphics is years away. Anyway, I think the fidelity of iRacing is great, but those early 2000 graphics. Ughh. You mention MSFS. I have a small channel (IvanSky) and was able to interview Jorg. What I love about MSFS is that they have a roadmap and for the most part, seem to be listening to the user base. I am too unfamiliar with the racing developers to have a feel for who is listening to the user base and who is not. All we need is one or two good titles with some longevity. Great video, sir!
EA WRC already has telemetry patched in, simhub is working… I think they just couldn’t quite make it to prelaumch/laumch witsh that feature for whatever reason. DR1 and 2 added features as time went on; I believe Codies will get VR in at least if not triple monitor support based on their track record
I really hope so, even if the handling is simulation at least those of us with triples, VR and motion can enjoy dome fun rallying!
As a console user, I personally wish that there was more simulation stuff for everyone…..Saying that, I would like to be able to use my peripherals in a more simulated way, and less of the race games that totally ignore wheels users; also, it would be nice to have button boxes/other additions more readily available.
I think that a great portion of the problem is ignoring that a large portion of adults still do play games and that catering all these games to young kids that don’t even know how to actually operate a motor vehicle.
I have to agree. It's why I love Automobilista 2 (as well as its historic cars and tracks), and am looking forward, very much, to Straight 4's GT Revival, which will probably be the most "simulation" title of anything released within the next few years, with the possible exception of Assetto Corsa 2.
Dirt Rally 2 in VR is still the absolute pinnacle for me. It's the absolute best racing sim experience I ever had. I played it regularly for 2 years or something :D it's still fun and there is nothing better, but I'm totally ready for the next one. I'm also ready to upgrade my gear etc... Let's get it on!
no Pikes Peak though
I think that some people racing on consoles migrate to a pc setup when they get at a point where they wan't to be more serious about simracing and expand their experience with the hardware addons available for pc.
The basic kit like ddwheelbases, wheels and padels have become much more affordable.
Unfortunately this growing trend seems not to translate to more serious (sim versus arcadish) titles in the pipeline (yet?). Rennsport perhaps.
There needs to be an agreed open standards that all Wheels & peripherals agree to follow (graphics has Driect X, Vulcan, OpenGL. MS made Direct Forcefeed back, there needs to be an Open Version of that). This will make it easier for game to add support, if you have to develop a new code for each wheel/base its massive waste of cash for developers. So many games are written in UE or Unity people like fanatec, etc should be pushing to get Force Feedback into those engines to help developers.
There also needs to be more eSports in the sim racing space. Someone needs to come in with some big money and make it cool and it will take off.
Also managing wheelsbase firmware is not an easy job. They should make them internet aware or something so you can update from a phone not a PC. This way console people can still have full features. Or manufactures need to get Xbox/PS approved apps to do this. Consoles requiring officially license products is just BS and should be illegal,
I was thinking a bit about this recently, and specifically found myself thinking if the most viable solution for updated and continued simulation content might end up being a platform with a community at the forefront who can build off it in a cohesive way. Blender, and other community centered software find success in similar ways to Assetto Corsa, RBR and the like because they’re so accessible and have a thriving community.
The thoughts originally stemmed off playing beam ng and thinking “at some point, a vehicle sim is going to be as much sim as it can/needs to be.” And at that point, it’s just the place for driving to be. Which isn’t to say I’m looking to see less competition, just that the market for hardcore sims is already a bit hostile, and probably won’t be getting much more hospitable anytime soon.
And in a way, we see that already, but they’re more like islands, vs one place. Iracing for track/oval, AC for drift/touge, etc.
I’m actually really hoping AC2 is being built with this in mind. Like,if AC2 drops, and says “we have off-road, and editable pace notes and mods.” Imagine how quickly a hardcore rally community could pop up around it? And I”m curious to see if AC2 in particular runs with the platform idea, specifically because they’ve seen both their games grow some reaaaaally long legs.
Yeah great idea, I'm curious for AC2 also!
I reluctantly agree. Game devs are really missing the mark by not taking full advantage of all the hardware that applies to their product out the box. Plus if more equipment could be utilized by us console racers, imagine how much more could be sold
Thats very true, so much more money to be made if console could use all the hardware PC racers have!
I think the thing is as gamers get older they want and demand more from their gaming hobby, and that is ok the average gamer age is shifting up not down. We just need more companies like Eagle Dynamics investing in quality sims in their respective area you can’t rely on Konami, Sony or Activision to do it they want mass market
Holly Cow! I loved that little Tomy game! You brought back sweet memories! 😛
It's actually still quite fun today taking turns with a few mates to see who can get the furthest!
Not out of the question for hardware manufacturers to release or sponsor their own titles, although that brings into questions what hardware they lock out of the software.
Also, eSports is likely to bring about ever increasing levels of interest.
The biggest problem however is that the main target is iRacing (in terms of securing market share), and that is (sadly) a self confirmative platform which players will insist is the best because they have paid so much for it. Despite it not being the best. But if another title comes out which is better, and iRacing players don't gel with it (which is to be expected after spending £4k), then not only can the new title not bring in market share, but it may even get unfair reviews from that audience, which harms greater word of mouth popularity.
How to overcome this? Offer rookie access (limited cars, limited tracks) for free, and then rely on microtransactions (tracks, cars, competition entry) for the rest. This will bring people from their biases just to test the platform for free, and if the platform is better, will still be profitable with a lower market share.
Didnt remembered that Tomy driving simulator was that tiny. Guess my hands were smaller 40 years ago. As what comes for rally sims, there has been just one sim RBR. I guess every developer dreams about making game, sim that lives 20 years, but way it makes money whole time. That when, lets say original AC goes sour for developer. There is many sims at tarmac, but not in rally because audience is small vs road, and even smaller in rally sims. Basicly we are talking europe, not stricly of course. Wrc license put more financial pressure on codemasters, so I think we would likely had more sim with DR3.0.
Yeah I didn't remember it being that small till I recently picked one up! lol We have all grown!
Agreed mate, Rally is a smaller audience.
Seems like the folks selling us all this hardware could consider a game development side. A pipe dream, I know, but what better way to ensure everyone needs the expensive motion platforms or wind curving machines than to create state of the art titles featuring the hardware?
Sadly, I agree. It seems game developers these days want to push out the bare minimum after promising an amazing title. This is true for all genres of games. They figure they can just patch stuff in later and many times just happen to forget about certain patches.
I'm glad the hardware is moving forward, we will just keep playing the old games until someone makes a new bar setting game... hopefully. I like the old rally cars much more than modern cars anyways so I play old Dirt 4 and Dirt Rally, Dirt Rally 2.0 all the time instead of games like WRC. I refunded EA's WRC in less than an hour.
Iracing is still king of racing sims. You have to pay for the support.
Still interesting that as good as Iracing is. It still struggles to run well with a 3080/12700 on a Quest 2.
So I’m assuming that the aftermarket is moving faster than developers, even paid content subscription developers.
Hi Karl, great reviews and love your shows and I understand you not buying the EA WRC game but not a lot of people can afford the same setup as you've got. I don't use any add ons when playing the game and think it's great. I know what your saying and I understand what EA have done but it's all about the money. Think of the extra work needed to put all these programs into the game which I suppose would delay the release date and money in the EA bank account.
Hi mate, this wasn't rally about WRC I was just pondering the future of fully fledged simulators and hardware but yes I agree with you for sure.
time. money. higher ups. physics not being an easy topic. the gap between game and realism also closes as we move on making it even more difficult.
NGL, i've been so satisfied with iRacing that im glad there aren't that many titles to dilute the playerbase. Lots of people crave new games all the time and that's fine, but every time a new game comes out, the only way for it to get a playbase is to take it from other games. Look what happened to RF2 after assetto corsa came out, or what happens to every F1 game when the new one comes out. My hope is that games are going to keep lowering the bar, as this is what is going to cement a single title as the go to for sim racers, which atm is iRacing, and i hope it'll be for a long ass time to come.
Thats also a very interesting point, we do have a finite number of players albeit a very large number!
These are very good points, personally I've been playing DR2 solely for the last year with no plans of getting any of these newer "sim" games, idk if I should be happy or sad yet lol
Same here I started with DR2.0 earlier this year and see no real need to move on to another title yet 😅
That Tomy Turbo is so FU*King cool! I want one.
It really is still very cool!
Very good point! I think that no new sim developers will appear any time soon, but just the same developers will release new titles and hopefully support new true force features, etc.. iRacing is making a lot of money, so they should really come out with a new game if they're not just greedy and sit on the money
Ports have always been a problem.
I remember migrating from an Atarti ST to Amega. 50% of the games were ST ports and not utilising the power of the Amega.
Same shit different day mate.
Bboy.
Yeah and vice versa if we're talking back to those days!
Omg! I had the exact same "simulator" as a kid, too! ❤
Totally forgot about it.
It's still a lot of fun!
@@KarlGosling Yeah, well, I've lost mine in the war / refugee (kids don't get to bring toys, not real "important thing" when you're feeling)..
But I remember it being very fun. The same color, Porsche nose...
Although I don't remember it running that fast in the top gear...
I'm glad yours still work.
Arcade style games are the key to tomorrow’s Sim Racers, we all started this way and progressed over time and years and the future generations will follow similar paths. The growth of e-sports will continue the development of simulation titles however there needs to be access of these titles to consoles to be able to get the most amount of people on the platforms. With each generation of console becoming more and more powerful the gap between the hardware is closing.
Personally, I still have nightmares about Dirt 4. It was the first “SIM” racer I tried when I got first wheel and to say it was hard, was an understatement. Or maybe I’m lying a little? 😂 Dirt 4 was actually the first racing game , I tried with my wheel and I actually quite liked it. Would have preferred it to be a bit harder but for me it was just fun. I previously played 100’s of hours of dirt rally and as I got dirt 4 via ps plus and never tried it, I thought I’d give it a go. Dirt 5 on the other hand, is bloody horrible.
There's too big a jump between gamepad and wheel. We need an intermediate controller that can take advantage of sim realism without the cost and space requirements of a wheel.
My vision is an RC pistol style controller with FFB.
I am relatively new to sim racing, but it seems all the game that you mentioned as examples of good sims are more often that not improved over a long time. AC has huge modding community so it is now a different game, not sure if tripples/VR had good support on release? Iracing has been basically in development for 15 years and again, not sure how it was with support of the bits you are talking about. And RBR is now really good because of modders that added not only VR, but also physics updates. But overall even in the past the "true sims" were quite spread out in between arcade and simcade games.
I think now the issue is with the whole gaming development is pushing on shorter releases and that cuts out those functionalities that you mentioned, but maybe for some titles like WRC we are going to see some improvements, hopefully by the devs.
I think I'm going to be working through AC's career mode for the rest of my life so I don't need any extra sim games. :D I keep buying them but then go back to trying to drive in AC.
Here's hoping AC2 is good, but I'm starting to get worried after a year of terrible game releases, many of which still aren't fixed 10 months later, which seem to suggest game/engine developers no longer know what they're doing. Which makes sense as that has happened to software (my field) in general. Everything is terrible and getting worse rather than better, and nobody working on anything (at least at the large companies) knows what they're doing or understands why things used to be done a particular way.
That said, I think the sim hardware market is so big now that if new sims don't come out and old sims become too long in the tooth, then the hardware companies will start making games themselves. But it's still too niche, or maybe hit-and-miss is a better way of putting it, for every racing genre to have a great, well-made and successful sim game (especially if you want single-player). Think how the poor NASCAR fans feel when there hasn't been a decent game in that franchise for decades now AFAIK, unless you count having the tracks and cars in some of the multiplayer-only titles.
Yeah all good points Leo!
I think we are getting some new sim titles. Also, there are some titles being actively developed and improved overtime a lot.
It’s probably a simrally thing because it’s a niche discipline. Similar to simdrifting, with a difference that simdrifting has never had a dedicated sim title (it used to be an activity for Live for Speed, now it’s all about mods in Assetto Corsa). So my guess is that eventually the simrally community would migrate to a new community driven platform. It might be Assetto Corsa 2 if it would be mod friendly (or AMS2 because it got gravel physics recently). But unlikely we are getting a new dedicated simrally title from a big developer that would last any long and satisfy our needs. Unfortunately, upcoming dedicated rally titles will be similar to the WRC game with all its problems as long as they are from EA.
Anyway, for now we stick to Richard Burns Rally and Dirt Rally 2.0. Fingers crossed for the future.
i would love to argue but i think the idea seems to be, put out an almost there game get your pennies make it look like you care by pushing update to furnish what should have been at launch, couple of dlc (more cash) aand move on.
R Factor one blew me away, it was a tough nut but it behaved as a real vehicle ould it was very rewarding to put the time in. But now its all about a big easy hit and that means old skool sims are a dying breed, and Rally sims = hens teeth.
Perhaps Ren sport?
The irony that hardware is now at a stunning level seems almost bitter to old farts like me.
FYI when DD wheels appeared it took a wheel and 2 boxes and a fair bit of tweaking to work and prices were in 4 figures so yes hardware is now stunning, if only games would keep up.......
AC is still the best and is the only one like it that I know of. Waited for ac2 got acc just another ok racing title. So still waiting.
What about AMS2, its gotten real good. The devs are doing some proper work and listen to what we want sim racers want (not the console masses).
They could of sold update 1.5 this year as AMS3, but they just gave it to us for free instead.
I agree it seems like the amount of good titles is a bit $#!+ and its been 5 years since a decent sim dropped.
The price and avaliability of hardware has gotten so good, it feels like it about peaked though.
For me there is only one future title worthy of getting all the gear you need for sim racing and that's AC2. Lets hope that Kunos delivers what we are waiting for.
This has been my thoughts since big companies saw a way of mikling the market in one-way console gameboy traffic. And got much worse recent years in general - noone mentioned, noone forgotten. On top of that another much worrying thing :
We are going into a new world.
A world of paddleshifter cars, automatic cars, fully electrified cars.
Hence, a whole new generation will not know any of H-stick, sequential analogue stick, basic driving skills as heel&toe technique, skipping gears, etc. are now turned into ounding my long gone grandmom Senna-godlike (well, she is now, but anyway).
Myself I had the console game with steering wheel and shifter as Karl is displaying in the intro here, but 10-11 yo by that time I already was very much into classic race cars. Of which have been my obsession ever since - and as the sim engine codes developed from my first 1985 C64 Speed King until just recent years, with the much improved hardware for everything, handmade self-builds, the heavy increase of entrant simmers during Covid 19 depression, I saw a bright future ahead of me, though some obstacles with a few sims trying to do cross-platform competition. And some 3-point tyre modelling of which certainly had flaws compared to 15 year older 1-point tyre modelling speaking trustworthy feedback.
But then you had umbrella publishers as EA and MSG turning direction, moneygrabbing with sole focus on reaching as far audience as possible - which means the casual console consoller game kids - of which seems to hang on deep into their 40ies, so now more generations have infested the consoles.
Besides IT tech newst popping up now and then about traditional PC production will not exist in a not so distant future, apparently meaning console like lowest common denominator hardware.
Besides more and more ignorant console players bullying normal simmers as 'freaks' with a very condescending attitude, which speaks straight into the pockets of the moneygrabbers, who want the lowest possible common denominator with the least possible sense, so that the skin can be sold long before the bear is shot.
If we have no critical heritage to take over - not only in terms of my own interest in the enormously rich heritage that lies in the history of motorsport right from the Benz Patent-Motorwagen up to the mid-00s - but in general within ordinary sim racing, then it will be really difficult to turn the tide.
I hope none of this will become true, but sometimes seems like a thin thread to hang on to beyond the abyss 😢
This seems to be a trend in the entire PC market....Insane hardware but barely any software to exploit it.
Rally racing is a bit less popular than road track racing , in racing in general.
So in game it's even less.
So a real Rally Simulation with proper physics would have an even smaller audiance than road track simulation ( iRacing, ACC, RF2 ).
The last one was Richard Burn, and there's no sequel because they didnt sell enough and the studio died.
It's VERY expensive to make a video game, and on top of that, greedy companies are the one that have official licences.
So, add up all those things, and you have it.
I had one myself. Money back then was too tight to mention. Remember charging the batteries on the top a radiator to heat it up just to get hours play.
Thats such a great memory, heating them did indeed get a little more play time!
If the title has a console counterpart expect it to be a watered down version to appease the console masses. Those who like realism are comparatively small to those who just want to play. They aim these to be played on a sofa, maybe with friends in the living room on a tv with a controller. The handling, physics and options are limited to controllers in mind. Those of us with full to partial rigs are not the target audience. They want kids who have more time to actually play these games and make the cars like Pokémon, they have to collect them all and will get their parents to pay for it. I went over part of this in my Forza video on my channel and in my EA WEC 2023 video.
Absolutely loved the tomy turning. Had one myself. showing your age there Karl 😂
Yeah getting on now, recently turned 45 mate!
Developers have to release games when they do because of contractual obligations with their publishers, limits to the up-front funding, etc. You'd still have to wait the same length of time for all those final features anyway. But at the same time definitely demonstrate your demand for those features, so the bean counters don't pull the plug on the devs.
It always pisses me off that the Forza titles don't support proper triple monitor.
I recon there will always be a sub section of real sim racers and we will eventually get a new proper sim. Rensport, yes it is a bit all over the pace, I recon will bring in quite a bit of new people over to the sim side of it is marketed in the write way. Or maybe we just need another big cough that will bring everyone inside and show them the wonders or real simulation😅
Any racing game coming out today without wheel support is just pointless tbh. simulators as you said without 3 monitor support is pointless. VR should also be a thing at this point for simulators.
I really want to see a title coming out that actually has it all. And no DLC and microtransactions. So tired of getting half baked games that I need to buy stuff for. iRacing is too expensive and they should find a new payment method. ACC is bound to GT racing. AC I have to mod to get the best out of it. WRC stages for me seems like they are AI generated and are squashed together to not take up too much space. It's seems like endless Turn 1 right, turn 2 left right after another section that feels like the same bollocks.
Either we get half baked games that are missing stuff or are too arcady or we get a sim that has to be modded or is too expensive to play. Most games today are just BETA's released to us and the developers can fix the game while we send them the data.... getting tired of it.
A lot of that is very true mate!
Assetto corsa 2, Le mans ultimate and rennsport all coming in 2024. So it doesnt look that bad for the future. Im excited
Omg that toy i remember that thing wish i still had mine thats a nostalgia hit
It's still great fun even now!
I have the peripherals , VR , motion, bodyshakers and i have to play all the time rf2, RBR and AC1. I cant play for long time to others games because they remember me to that three classics but dont gime me the same, and I have to be thankful that at least those three exist.
Rfactor 2 could be a platform for Rally mod´s, the old ones prove that. After all, it is the best simulation (RF2).
We are all in a terrific time for gaming in general. I fear that expectations are too high and everyone over looks good underlying content. The reality is that cartridge and disc based games are gone and with that the need to make a perfect game out of the blocks. We got WRC 2023 almost as a surprise and it was playable from the beginning (not perfect). Just because it's not fully ready to support all of our do dads at launch doesn't mean one should abandon it and encourage everyone to do the same. If the gameplay was terrible I would find merit in shrugging this game off, however that was not the case. This game has the potential to become a beloved favorite given some time. Meanwhile it has a whole lot going for it. Licensed cars, Great stages and high production. Remember you have RBR waiting in the wings to satisfy all your rally needs for the next 30 years with all the content. True simulators don't exist anyways. Not without a huge company developing an in house solution for it's team or a government for it's military things like that, and they never have need for a variety of sims. If you had a perfect simulator that made you truly happy why would you have need for more perfect simulators. It's just what we all do now. We hyper criticize games and lump them all together with really awful games because we didn't get what we wanted when we wanted it. You mentioned yourself that Dirt rally 1 and 2 "eventually" got UDP support. Patients for the things you hope for and thankfulness for fair things you have now might go a long way to not making you feel like everything is about to collapse in this great hobby of ours. When in doubt RBR it out mate.
There are the "middle man or section" like me, I have Trak Racer RS6 sim cockpit with wheels, and fanatec dd pro set. I like play ex. Forza Horizon 5 and so does my 5yr son. I have also Buttkicker Gamer Plus and SIM 3d pedal rumblers. Anyway, I'm satisfied if the game offers UDP telemetry and I'm ok with that.... But you have a point, markets and money are who running the show... But there are market for SIM racing hardware
I agree we've had a couple of games released that really fall short of sim'ness - Forza and WRC really lack in that regard - be it the UDP or more immersion breaking, the way that gearboxes are handled. And I wonder, is it deliberate, as making a sequential/H pattern capable game (for the right car at the right time) really isn't hard, PCars2, AC, and AMS2 all do it well (console, old to new). And I think maybe the challenge is that arcade games are getting more realistic really - Grid was a good example. it looked fantastic but was unashamedly an arcade-biased game. Put your grid lense on and Forza is a great game.
Sims? GTRevival, Le Mans (if we see it), and AC2 are on the horizon. Rennsport is too, and that's trying hard to be a sim. To the point in this video though, if they don't support the extended sim ecosystem then will they survive a well-patched and modded AC or similar? Not so sure. Fun finding out though!
Hopefully the little trumpeted GT Revival (scheduled for 2024) will help to bring real sim options back up to date, alongisde Rennsport. Nobody can say that Ian Bell doesn't know how to develop a proper sim.
I would argue everyone thinks he can't. Though to date, except it's no longer on sale, I think Project Cars 2 is the best overall package. There might be some games that do individual things better, though usually not by much, but PC2 is a fairly complete package and has features most others don't.
@@JZStudiosonline Good point, PC probably is one of the greatest sim racing titles of all time.
@@martin-hall-northern-soul My concern for GTR is it will most likely be yet another GT3 sim, given the name. So then you have R3, ACC, iRacing, GTR, RFactor 1 and 2, Sports Car GT, GTR 1 ,2 and all of it's spinoffs, etc. all doing pretty much the same thing.
I like road cars, and GPLaps like vintage racers... where are the sims for that?
@@JZStudiosonline Hopefully Assetto Corsa 2 will quench some of the thirst for vintage racers. I enjoy them too. However, agree that there likely won't be the variety of sandbox sims going forward, as there was in the 2005 - 2019 years.
I'm intrigued with AC2 but if it's the same VR sh*t-show as ACC, then I'll probably not buy it. I'm happy with iRacing as a constantly evolving live service game. I know it is somewhat expensive, but that's what keeps it alive. As you say, there's not as much money for developers in PC Sims vs Console Sim-likes, so it's a tough sell for developers unless you go down the iRacing model.
A new sim game cost to much money now with all the license stuff and copyright so they give us the arcade games that everybody can buy so they go for the easy money now just like everybody 😂
would love to go round to Karls house to play!!
isn't ac2 released next spring?
yes it is going more towards console and casual sim gamers, look at project cars which is a perfect example 1 and 2 were more simulation than 3 so the title had shifted to be more of an arcade sim rather than a real sim feel, it felt like forza motorsport project cars 3,again focusing on the mainstream sim/gamer.
the other issue is the main stream buyers wont want to pay for UDP or a full sim cockpit which can get very expensive, companies like EA know this so they wont spend on resources to fulfil a small number in the market wanting full rig support. that group of people are a minority within the whole consumer group,its a niche market at the moment until prices drop which i cant see happening, and im in no way knocking the enthusiasts not at all.
so yes karl we are seeing a decline in real simulation titles, many of the features you describe are not necessary to play the game or sell the game.
most consumers will simply have a thrustmaster or a logitech or even a fanatec csl wheel and pedals which have full console support out the box, and maybe an 100 quid stand to mount it on from argos and that's pretty much all they will pay for as there game library consists of first person shooters, platform games that sort of thing and being able to drag a stand with a wheel attached to the front of your tv on the fly is pretty easy to do to then move it out the way for some call of duty.
these people wont want a hard installation of a sim rig, because for an hour or 2 blast round Monza then switch to an hour on call of duty is what the mainstream consumer will want to do, there not going to invest in one platform of game. and that's it and most households cant afford a super pc for a sim rig in one room and a console separate in another room, people are just scraping by with bills as it is, when i was a kid we had one mega drive to 4 people in our house.
decline in simulation mmm yep but not dead, there will be something coming, the problem with f1 and wrc, the licence is held by a video game developer a studio which produces fps games platform games etc, if the licence was open to all then you would get more simulation titles with official branding.
what there is to look forward to is the yearly updated calendar on ACC which has kept that sim alive, and we know that AMS2 will bloom into AMS3 and lets not forget the overly anticipated AC 2.
but rally i think for now we will just have to wait and see, play with the cards we are dealt I'm afraid, it wouldn't be much fun racing none branded rally cars on unofficial stages produced by an independent developer with the ability to make use of all the bells and whistles, without the official calendar cars liveries it would be a very dead feeling game, i would buy it though but the WRC name has a substantial fan base.
that's my spin on the situation i may be wrong.
All very good points Darren yes mate.
no worries sorry for the waffle,WRC23 is good regardless of the lack of simulation features, it needs a few more updates to give it some more polish but it is worth your time, but it is a shame you invested in that rig to not get the full advantage i do feel you on that fella.@@KarlGosling
Speaking of true force and full force, I think thrustmaster did it best with a built-in transducer. If they had it open to all games with the tgt and did the same thing with the 818, I think they would be in a much better place....
Yeah thats like having one bolted under your wheel deck which is fairly common.
It's aggravating that devs aren't including these features. Did you know that you can play Gran Turismo 5 with 3D glasses and head tracking as well as with triple screens. Gran Turismo 6 on PS3 and Forza 4 on the Xbox 360 also supported triples. Now the new GT7 and GT Sport on the PS4 don't have triple screen or head tracking, no triples for the new Forza Motorsport either. So not only are developers not adding these features to PC but they aren't including them in the consoles anymore either, it's very frustrating. Console gamers get screwed over on VR as well. PC1, PC2, PC3, Dirt 2.0, AC, ACC all had Playstation releases and non of them got the VR that was there for the PC gamers. Hopefully AC2 will support VR, Triples out of the gate. Like you said in a perfect world we would have VR/triple screen and UDP support for all our games. How come none of the motorcycle sims have VR? OMG it would be awesome to do the Isle of Mann TT in VR! I share in your frustration Karl.
Thank you
did you know that the api that controls force feedback in windows is technically deprecated? the software side issue starts with windows, the ffb protocol itself is ancient
in short, no.
the biggest issue is not the developers or the publishers, it's players... the "REAL" sim racers will stick to what works, but they're also very fickle, particular and slightly obsessive over "their" genre of gaming; they're a horribly tough crowd to please, even tougher than your average gamer, who's entitled AF, but is also happy to shell out wads of cash for the best gear, even if only for bragging rights - much in the same vein as FPS or RPG players do with mice, keyboards and headsets or monitors... you name it, that's why the hardware market is getting saturated; these companies know gamers like bling.
The reason for the decline aside from the stuff mentioned above, is that racing games are a niche, sim racing titles are a niche within that niche, and let's face it, from a business perspective, if your audience is hard to please, or can't be pleased and tends to be toxic af about nearly every aspect of what you're trying to do, then obviously, companies will divest from developing for that audience, as it's just a money pit; combine that with the stranglehold shareholders have over publishers and their obsession with ROI (preferably quick and a lot of return on investment), and i'm sure it's not hard to imagine why so few titles are being made to cater to "REAL Sim Racing Titles"; there's not enough money in it.
I think at this point it's unrealistic to expect the big publishers to cater to sim racing and fully commit to developing such titles, there's no profit in it for them, and as companies tend to go in a capitalist system, they need to make money, so as a result, they will indeed cater to the wider public, not the 3% of hardcore simmers who can never agree on anything or always find reasons to complain. Your best bet then is to rely on smallER independent publishers/studios such as the folks behind Race Room Racing Experience or iRacing, or Kunos, to keep doing what they're doing, and not pressure them into releasing something that will be shot down by everyone for not being "feature complete".
So no, they're not a thing of the past, but the real sim racing titles are, and should be, very slow to develop fully.
Totally agree mate and lets hope those smaller publishers do indeed keep doing what they are doing, it's great for the hobby!
@KarlGosling it really is and they will, as long as we keep supporting them in any way we can and don't pressure them into releasing something that isn't fully done. they don't have the resources the bigger companies have, so they really rely on our support, not some faceless, clueless investor who's looking to make a quick profit (it's not even the publisher, and definitely not the developer; the issue is the shareholders)
Like, if tomorrow Kunos tells us all they want another 6 months, or even a year, to make really sure they are delivering the best they can, then i'd be perfectly fine with that, and i think most of us would; but if EA or any other big publisher does that, gamers would be livid, because gamers don't have patience, they want everything yesterday. On top of that, the big ones can't take their sweet old time because shareholders set the terms for releases and budget; and they will ALWAYS cater to the biggest common denominator, which is the average joe gamer, who can spare just enough cash to keep buying those yearly releases.
But do trust me when I say that developers usually wish they could do more, and usually want to do more; it's just that they're restricted in doing so; especially when they're part of a big conglomerate and even the publisher/conglomerate isn't the real issue then, it's the investors, the shareholders, the board members; the ones who fork out the cash and expect a return on their investment.
Karl, do you think this is actually the ultimate building a sim racer scenario?
There will be more and more players who crave more so the audience is there and bigger than it's ever been?
Codemasters have never been consistent with supporting all these hardware we have. i don't support titles like that for sure.
Omg Karl, lol what a blast from the past, I used to have that 😂😂 👍
So cool isn't it! :D
@@KarlGosling lol yeah mate definitely
It's purely a financial decision Karl. I know you know that, but lots of people forget. Game development costs MILLIONS, and we're not talking about "close enough" being ok when we talk about sims - we're talking about an incredibly accurate and labour intensive process. One that's different for every single car, every single track, multiple weather conditions... Any future development of a system that takes all of that into account is going to be flawed, purely because it will be so expensive. Ask yourself: would you be ready to pay out £500 for a triple A full on well delivered Sim software package? A lot of sim racers would find it somehow, but the other side of the equation is the developer - who is going to be the first to risk millions in the hope that people will be willing to pay for the product in the end? This is why we get console games. Low investment, low risk, guaranteed return on your investment.... As a purely "money decision" which would you choose? I do think there's a middle ground here, that - long term - could lead to better products albeit at a higher price. A monthly subscription service is the mid-ground here. You buy the game, and pay a monthly fee. That way the developer is incentivised to continue to work on their product. This helps alleviate the massive initial investment that's needed to get a true Sim developed.
All very good points Ron!
Rally racing is not the most popular type of racing unfortunately. So in the case of wrc, I think it just makes more sense from a business point to release a game earlier for the masses that doesnt necessarily support all the sim stuff. Because today they can add all that stuff later. So why not make some money first then fund peripheral supposrt, udp, vr, ect, while making profits. Its nothing different from dr1 and 2. So why is it a surprise? Im not saying i like this, but it definitely seems logical from a business pov.
As far as full sim titles go, i dont think there is to much to worry about. The hobby is definitely growing in popularity. I just dont think we are quite to the point where many companies can justify going that route yet. But with some more time, the price of decent wheel setups finally getting more affordable, i think it will get to a point where developers will be more likely to get behind them in the future.
Agree with your concern and its a shame that game developers are way behind hardware manufactures. For me the only sim that everything works flawlessly is Ams2 which everyone keeps forgetting. I cannot understand how simrig offers support for wrc and you are saying that udp port is not available in this game.
UDP came a few days ago as I mention in this video mate.
Sims are extremely niche, and it simply doesn't make any sense to spread the player base too thin. It's not about constantly getting new games, it's about having a platform that's continuously being updated and supported. Similar to how DCS is for flight simming. Though, of course, having a couple more platforms is a good idea.
it's non gaming investors/big wigs looking at numbers and sacking us off. There is no logical sense that its the devs who enjoy making games everyone wants to play, some of which ARE sim racers themselves. I mean can someone answer me how hard is it to actually add these features? Especially triple support thats driving me mad lately.
Do you think that game developers are relying on their communities to do the work for them to incorporate all the support for all the hardware.. Assetto corsas community has done an excellent job of getting things done.. Or do you think it could be a licensing thing if they go with dbox would other companies with motion rigs not work with the developers of sim titles? For example
i only just got a rig etc so i have no feckin clue :D
More hardware brands and innovation than ever. Today Iracing is nothing like 2008 iracing (playing since 2009) and lot improvements coming up, LMU in February, ac2 in 2024, GTRevival too, rennsport ... well forget rennsport lol. No decline sign there. But just the consoles trying to merge on the sim side.
Maaaan, I had one of these!
Still fun now!
Is obvious that companies will always go where the money is and the money is in the xbox/ps controllers. However you also need to think that as per today all games are released broken, so if companies are unable to release a game playable how we want to have extras like triple screen, telemetry....
The amount of real simulators is little (AC, ACC, IRacing, AMS2, RFactor, Raceroom, Dirt Rally, Wrc, Euro Track...maybe I miss something, but more or less is this) and in the future will be the same even if Fanatec, Simucube or Asetek need to invest in software companies to be sure one or two tittles are released every 3 or 4 years.
Yes exactly!