Dyscalculia - Numberphile
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- An expert on on cognitive neuropsychology speaks to us about his research on the seldom-discussed "dyslexia for numbers".
More links & stuff in full description below ↓↓↓
Professor Brian Butterworth is based at University College London.
Dyscalculia is a learning disability involving mathematics and numbers.
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I look at the dots and my brain automatically goes in panic mode. I have to intentionally calm down and focus and then count one by one.
Same here.
SAME BRO I looked at it and was like.. hmmm gotta count then heard the dude call out how many and was like.. Tf
I freaked out when the guy counted the dots in 0.2 seconds. I had to pause the video and count slowly 1 by 1 using my fingers I thought that was normal 😭✋
Same here I go panic then I can't do math, maybe we just a lost cause 😢
me too :(
I got diagnosed when I was 14 years old. Unfortunately, to that point every single math teacher had more or less given me the feeling of being dumb because I could not do lots of stuff. This is as real as dyslexia and people, especially teachers, need to know about it.
Exactly.
This. Exactly. I had after school lessons, and I failed each and every time. Why? Because I have something, the teachers refused to acknowledge. To be frank, I don't have a problem with distinguishing numbers, or reading time (although a digital clock makes 100% sense to me and an analog one takes me a few seconds to understand). I, just like "normal" persons, group the dots to make counting easy. So I think I have a very specific 'math-only' kind of dyscalculia?! Does that exist? I don't know.. I'm not dyslexic by the way.
I agree with Brady; when there were 7 dots, I counted the 4 & 3, even though the researcher said people don't do that.
me too ! I do groups of 5 max though
like for 11 i went 5 5 1
He didn't really say they dont do that, he said it doesn't give them an advantage
@Paul me too!! Except for "mid-sized" numbers like 11, I go up to 6, since 1 doesn't give me any advantage, but I do usually cap it at 5. Like when they put those 27 dots (I hope it was 27...) on the screen, I quickly split everything into 5s
Psychologists make a lot of things up.
same here
I have dyscalculia. Would have been nice to even know that it existed when I was in school lol
Me too, my teacher told me that Im too lazy constantly ........
you have 96 likes.
Same
Trust me ur not alone most people teachers don't know it's real I struggle with it it's debilitating
@@cecejagger4527 yes same here they were uneducated imagine that a teacher doesn't know what discalclia is tells u they didn't do there homework lol 🤣😆 haha
I have avoided maths all my life. I was awful I couldn’t even learn the times tables.
Me too. And i struggle counting money
same I'm 20 and I still struggle with memorizing times tables and divisions to this day
Wish this "symptom" never existed
The human civilization would've skyrocketed
@@MilkIsTheOne me too i literally feel so stupis no matter how much i tried or how many motivation i spend on maths i never learnt anything
Glad we’re not alone
I group three and four for seven
Same
Yeah, me too. That's some bull
+wolfshadow me too...
me too
I grouped 6 and 5 for eleven. And weirdly fast at that one.
Its a real pain! Especially when you have problems telling the time on a clock. I seem to loose track of time.
I just loose track of the time, but I have nothing to blame. Feel my pain.
Loose time. Loose women.
Yes. I have dyscalculia and i have to be at school at 8:50. Going to school takes me about 10 min. So i will make sure i am out of the house at 8. If im 3 minutes late i drive my bike faster because iam scared i'll be late even though i have 50 min. I have no idea how much time i need for anything.
Me too telling the time was terrible my classmates had to teach me
true so embarassing yo
With this you can't pass your math sol in order to graduate. It ends lives before their lives even start. How many generations will go through this before it's taken seriously?!
sesh I'm sorry to hear that, I'm depressed and contemplate it everyday. I can't really do anything with this problem I wish I could've passed my sol and graduated :(
many many very successful people didnt graduate, so keep it up, you cannot achieve everything, but you can achieve alot of other great stuff!!!
MDFlight That was back when you could get a job with a GED or less. Not so today.
i have to admit i really speak without being part of it at all, but i believe and i hope its true that you can work in areas you like, even without graduating, even though it may not be the dream job itself, work in that area should be possible
I'm thinking about dropping out of my second year of college idk what to do people just tell me to practice my multiplication since I can remember been to simmer school for math every year since elementary and I just can't
I was diagnosed w/ Discalculia in 2010. The problem was I was then 49. When I was a child in the 60s and 70s, I could not do math. The teachers and my parents didn't know what to do w/ me. If I wasn't stupid, then I was being rebellious, or lazy, a slacker, ect.
I kinda laughed when he was talking about phone #'s and PIN #'s ! I can't remember phone #'s even if you tell me a couple of times- you ,or I have to write them down. Ha! I do use the same PIN # for everything! Lol! I gave up trying to count those dots at 3:56 - 4:06, they were going by too fast! MiF
MusketeerinFlorida Wow, there are so many funny abbreviations in your sentences. I don't know wether I like it or not though.
I don't consider myself dyscalculic, partly because I work with numbers a lot... But I still favor similar pin numbers and have trouble with phone numbers. I chalk it up to bad memory.
and what happens to be your pin, sir> *wink* *wink*
I was diagnosed with a non-specific learning disability when I was 11. In high school I was diagnosed with moderate dyscalculia and mild dyslexia. I'd already made great strides with reading and writing. But I still have anxiety dealing with maths. I use my phone for everything. Grocery shopping, getting phone numbers etc... Diagnosis helped me with dyslexia but hasn't helped with overcome dyscalculia.
Crazy Texan (looking at the night sky): "Look at all them stars--how many do you think there are?"
Homer Simpson: "Two."
Dude the first seconds of the video I was like "okay two dots" and then the second image popped up and I'm still thinking and the guy says six and he's like you got it but you were slow. I'm like WTF,,if he was considered slow,,,then i would be like really really slow i was still counting oh no lolol ,,im scared to finish the video only to find out i have dscauyluaia
leslie huang
I thought the same 😂
Also: nice profile picture 😝
MyChemicalPhangirl 😐😐what the profile pic... What about mcr????
leslie huang It seems to me that you might be dyslexic
Finding out I was dyscalculic was a relief to me, because that means I had an explanation for so much of my life.
Wtf counting the dots makes me slow but instantly calling it out by looking at the dots is considered normal? What if there were 10-100 dots? How am i suppose to instantly call 100 dots out, hmm?
I'm pretty bad at counting and arithmetic (probably because of too little working memory). However I have degrees in Math and Statistics. I am very dependent on calculators/computers but I can look at equations and mentally do algebraic manipulations. It's a far more important skill to correctly set up a problem and work through the logic. To equate math to rote calculations would be like typing random letters and calling it literature.
There is an old joke:
There are 3 kinds of mathematicians
1. The ones who can count
2. The ones who can't
The way I would group the dots together would depend on how the dots were laid out
YES
Currently studying software development. I don't know if I suffer from Dyscalculia. However, it took me years longer than everyone else in my primary school to learn how to tell the time with an analogue clock and to this day it still takes me a lot longer. I have to sit and count up the intervals and often get the hands mixed up. I'm studying software development so I had to learn all the basic arithmetic calculations for computers such as adding up binary numbers and hexadecimal addition calculations for an example and I just can't wrap my head around the logic. However, I'm very good at the programming and design side of things. When I'm at the shops I can count the money but I generally have to count it more than once because I feel I'll get it wrong. I don't feel comfortable with any basic arithmetic really.
Sounds very much like classical dyscalculia to me. The first dyscalculic we tested was a very successful software developer. Keep at it.
I have a similar problem. I found this video by looking for clocks for dyslexics. I need an analog clock that also has fifteen minute intervals marked. If I need to be somewhere at 10:15, the pie shaped portions become a mirror image and I find myself looking at 10:45 and thinking Im going to be on time.
I do great with fractions because that is a proportion and not necessarily a number. When the proportions are tied to a number as a clock is, it gets tricky.
By fifteen minute intervals, I mean clearly marked with the numbers 15, 30 and 45.
Atom Wolf Are you self studying or majoring in it? If you're majoring in it, how do you get past all the high level math that I assume is required? I want to go into the field of computer science but it's disheartening when all the fields that interest me are the same fields that are very math heavy.
Kristi Smart Totally get the clock part, on clocks without the numbers printed, i do not know which way the clock is laid out. I'm also dyslexic and have completely no sense of left and right, clockwise or counter clockwise. I used to keep change in my right pocket just so I would always have a reference point. I am also a software developer :)
When I was younger, my parents would pick on me by asking me which way something was(outside) while I was inside, and I would point TOTALLY the wrong direction. Unfortunately, I was an adult before I was diagnosed.
He seems like a really nice man. i would love to talk to him
I've never been diagnosed with this but there's no doubt in my mind I have it.
10:52
"There's two there"
"Yeah...correct"
I like how he confirmed it was correct
Very lovelly
I had a psychologist recently diagnose me with Dyscalculia and ADHD. I have always had a difficult time with remembering numbers, they seem to always get transposed if I look at them, or numbers go missing. I am in college currently trying to get through a very difficult computer science class. It doesn't mean we are dumb it just means we cannot do math like a normal person. I literally have a hard time with just basic arithmetic and multiplication. Forget anything fraction or division wise!
Same here. I taught algebra in the public schools for several years. Higher level math were okay, but my arithmetic has always been bad. I'm great at trig and geometry. I struggled with integrals and sets in calculus, but can do it, it's just hard and I have to concentrate a lot. I'm okay with math tests that aren't timed, but put a timer on me and I get anxiety and usually have to take the test multiple times. As a teacher I decided it was okay to make arithmetic mistakes. I'd just give the students candy if they caught an error on the board (either flipping digits or copy errors from one line to the next) and they'd follow along more closely, and have the students do the arithmetic portions. I use a calculator even for simple arithmetic "to make sure" I loved philosophy because first order logic used letters instead of numbers. I am not afraid of math, and I can do it, but I need pen and paper to do it, and it may take a bit longer, oh well. So many want me to continue in math, but I don't really like numbers. So I do a bit of accounting, but I think I like programing more (and so do my family members who are dyslexic, don't know why, but they seem to be drawn to programing and excel at it).
when they show an image with high density dots I get really nervous that I will count them wrong and that I'm going to be slow, and I end up indeed doing it slow
Me too
Thanks for this upload. I just found out about this today! 3/8/15
I am glad I can finally put a name to what has happened and continues to happen to me. When I was in school from elementary, to grade, to middle, to high school and then college, it is math (or anything involving numbers) that always gave me a headache. And I don't mean just the frustration of not figuring it out; it was at the frustration of my mind going into a complete blank! It is was if I could _feel_ it happening. I would be sitting in class staring at numbers and not seeing what the other students saw.
I do have an autism, so I expected to have some learning disability but not to a degree that numbers would cause me to get emotional or having to adapt a different way of thinking to simply make it to a store on foot.
Decembirth I feel really sorry for you. It's a shame you cannot enjoy math like me and many others.
When counting dots, I always look for groups of 4. This seems to be the optimal technique for randomly scattered dots.
this makes sense because 4 is about as high as the human brain is able to *subitize* before it gets inaccurate! I do the same thing. I try groups of 5 sometimes too, but 5s and 6s can look the same
I am 32 and was just diagnosed with Dyscalculia. It would have been so nice to have this diagnosis as a kid
I've got dyscalculia and I'm majoring in engineering.
Have you been diagnosed by a psychologist?
i feel you .im also doing engineering
I got a bachelors degree in it, and it took me extra time to learn things that other would get instantly
katy wow! That gives me hope (as a high schooler with dyscalculia) you really are an inspiration to become an engineer with such a set back
Then you don't have it. I have it and can't apply simply math to engineering or finance problems.The numbers all gel into a blob and I panic.
I'm fairly certain I have dyscalculia, probably a bit of dyslexia as well. I count the dots one by one. When I was in school I could understand how say, 2x3=6 but I couldn't understand how 3x2 equalled the same thing. I failed my university maths four times before finally passing. But understanding higher maths is a lot easier (or at least the concepts are).
I know it’s 4 years later but 2x3=6 because 2+2+2=6. There are 3 2s. 3x2=6 because 3+3 (two 3s) =6
Find me for help for basic math....
Imagine a rectangle that had area 3cm*2cm. The area is 3 (length)*2(witdth)=6cm^2 (area). Now rotate it 90 degrees. The area is now 2(length)*3(width). But you didn't stretch or squish the rectangle, so the area must be the same. Therefore, the order doesn't matter. We call this property commutativity.
@@jwcfive7999 You also can change the phrase. 3x2 is three times two and 2x3 is two three times.
Having dyscalculia has affected me all of my life. It appears to be inherited. I loved school and did very well in everything except math. I attended college and wanted to major in certain things but when it came to the math, I couldn't do it.
I do have Dyscalculia ad Dyslexia, still did a degree in Data Science and Finance and accounting ...was easy? not at all, but used many trick to learn and find the right way to get around my limitation
Who guide you?
I have dyscalculia and im 19 years old. I just gave up on math since 6th grade. I am interested in science mainly in marine biology but I never dared to follow science because of mathematics, I am more focused on the arts and I also like it a lot
Don't worry.. your disability is worth more than someone with a mathematics degree from Oxford.
I am 71 and use a computer to balance my checkbook. But I was 34 till I was diagnosed with dyscalcula. Short term memory with numbers is also a factor. Thank you!
This has impacted my life in every way. It keeps me from doing so many things.
"There's 2 there."
"Yup, correct."
.___.
I´m a dyscalculic, I was born with a part of Cerebral Palsy where Dyscalculia is a fairly common related diagnosis. I hated math in school, but I love it now since I have learned to circumvent my dyscalculia. Today I am a software and game developer, something I thought would be hard because of my issues. :)
You give hope
Man, I have both dyslexia and dyscalculia, diagnosed when I was 6. Didn't attend public school till Middle School, I was lucky that I was in a community that saw my issues and had a plan to help me come up with strategies to learn...
I think I've got dyscalculia, but the strange thing is that I'm an engineer, I got very specialized education in my childhood, every day, because my aunt was a retired teacher, also my father is dyslexic.
I've always had awful issues reading a damn analog clock, it can take me up to a minute to read, they get in my nerves, and making basic calculations in my head is impossible, the only way I can solve calculations is with visual references and computers (that's how I became a engineer, the computer had everything I was lacking); I cannot remember almost any number, from this day I always fail to remember my mother's birthday and my own birthday (thanks facebook).
I've developed my own method to solve things, and I've been successful in my field but without a computer/calculator, I'm doomed to fail due to my slow speed, and how hard is for me to difference numbers. I'd not solve a simple sums properly without a device.
However my logic is great, so I don't understand, how can I be logically great but mathematically awkard?... is that dyscalculia? or is it something else?...
+Edward González
Hey I work like that !!! You are not alone.
+jkltg60 :D
+Edward González Same, but I got an A in maths?
+Jacob Pesquera yes, no way that an engineer has it. It's more complex that make it impossible to overcome to the degree needed to do that job or learn the math involved to get through school.
+Edward González Could be ADHD. I have ADHD, and my math fluency (ability to do math quickly and accurately, especially in my head) is terrible, despite my math skills being in the 90s (when time isn't a factor).
I have got dyscalculia and it is true I do tend to count dots individually rather than in sets . And I do tend to have the same pin number for everything.
He said 6 so fast hehe I had to pause and count
I think I have this! It takes me a long time to do tasks involving mental arithmetic, telling time, remembering telephone numbers (or any random number strings), birthdays, times tables, etc. In high school, I did university level mathematics but always used a calculator for any arithmetic aspects.
I am so glad this video came out. I have NEVER been able to solve word problems and experience large amounts of anxiety. While everyone else knew the answers, I was still trying to figure out what the problem was asking. Then it's like mumble jumble from there.
Ahahahah me too
I actually counted 4 and 3 ... oO
Commandelicious I also definitely counted 3 + 4 = 7
same here o.O
Commandelicious i went 5 + 2
I can count all of them as one chunk immediately until like 15 or so. I might be unique.
Commandelicious
2 -> 4 -> (8-1)
So pleased to see a video on this, it seems it's pretty much unheard of. I have endless problems explaining to people what dyscalculia is, I think most people think I'm making it up or I'm just a bit crap at maths.
Every time I want to explain to someone what dyscalculia is, I will reference them to this video. 😊💛 Thank you @Numberphile
As someone who found out they had Dyscalculia after University. It would have been nice to know earlier.
I can't estimate. "How many in your class?" No idea! I use a digital watch as reading a clock takes a long time.
Always count one at a time.
When this video first came out, I made a long comment about it. Since then I have started using base 12 for the majority of my math, and I watched the video again. I have a completely different perspective now. Base 12 drills into you the use of 3, 4, 6 groupings for use in addition, multiplication, division, et cetera. These groupings really change the way you look at these dots. I would love a part 2 of this video with the professor talking about this.
I feel like I'm alot faster with dividing those into groups even If they're different. So 3 and 4 is much faster than just 7.
thats what all this is about, we devide big numbers into groups and count the groups together, children do 1,2,3 groups (the study was made on children so they did the 7 as 3+2+2, we do it as 3+4), we do 1,2,3,4 groups
MDFlight but he said in that video at 10:20 that "you can't do it with 3 and 4 - it won't give you any advantage". But I feel it does give me advantage over just 7 therefore I wrote a comment about it.
This is likely do to the concept of chunking, you can chunk 3 and 4 and therefore save time as opposed to counting the 7 dots. Thus why phone numbers in the US are xxx-xxx-xxxx.
I imagine this is also highly affected by what shape the 3 and 4 dots are in. If they are very geometric like a triangle and square then I imagine your ability to quick count them raises significantly, but if they were completely random or in lines or in counterintuitive shapes (3 in the shape of an incomplete square or L and the 4 dots as a triangle with one in the middle) it would slow you down since it defies shape recognition shortcutting.
I'm so fascinated by this topic. I'm a music performance major interested in music education, but I have been recently obsessed with trying to teach rhythm, which is heavily related to math. I absolutely can't wait to keep learning about this topic and about how I can tailor being able to teach musical rhythm in a wide variety of understandable approaches.
If you had a video game where you counted dots and it got progressively harder, would that make you better at counting over time? Wonderful video, thanks!
i had that idea for a couple of years now, often considered programming such a game, however felt too lazy to actually do it.
however, in such a game, i would try to actually tweak the algorithms (which create the pictures you are shown) to avoid creating clusters like the ones they talked about in the video... because i would consider splitting it up a kind of "false positive", or "cheating"
that in itself however opens a new can of worms, look up "clustering illusion"
our minds are putting patterns on everything ;D
I find that grouping in fives works well for me. Once you get the hang of recognizing the patterns/groups (which I view as quadrilaterals each with a point in the middle somewhere) it's really easy to do the number of groups. After all, I think for most people it's much easier to go 5, 10, 15, 20, 25... than 3, 6, 9, 12, 15... or 4, 8, 12, 16, 20...
two groups of three dots will have similar spatial relationships to each other even if they are arranged in a different pattern. You can quickly count separate identifiable groups of identical numbers because once you have counted one, counting the other is like facial or shape recognition. You aren't counting at that point, you are recognizing.
i don't buy that...
maybe for 3 it will work (and 2 as well, obviously).
but the larger the number, the less "similar spatial relationships to each other", so facial/shape recognition won't recognize them that easily.
This would likely be true if the dots were grouped in geometrically familiar shapes , 3 dots as a triangle 5 as a pentagon, but if the dots were in lines or more randomly arranged I don't think this holds up. Especially if the dots were counterintuitively arranged. Such as 3 in the shape of an incomplete square or L and the 4 dots as a triangle with one in the middle or something like that.
I've recently found this information & research about this problem recently, after failing this Algebra EOC, the class itself & having a long history of struggles, i've been really stressed out & bewildered.
I'm impressed to realize this and just plain relieved to know there's an answer to this.
Right now, i just want to know how to get these things over.
Thank you guys for giving out an explanation of this.
this was the most interesting video on your entire channel, and im not smearing all the other videos, i love you channel, but this video was exceptional, especially cause i always wondered as someone being good at maths if dyscalculia actually even existed or if it was just people being bad at maths, but it totally makes sense now and im probably 99% convincend that it exists!
Always good to listen to Brian Butterworth speaking about dyscalculia. Erudite, accessible and encouraging
And buttery smooth.
... are you telling me most people split the dots into groups? Like, most people don't count one by one? I am... shook.
What a brilliant video and channel.
OMG, this was so helpful! The more I learn about my learning disabilities, the better I feel about myself. I can count sets of 3 and 5 and then add them, but even numbered sets give me problems, and if the sets are irregularly spaced my brain panics and the dots hop around.
My algebra 2 teacher this last year was a HORRIBLE teacher. There were two instances during the year of him waiting for over a month to put in grades, and one of the times was near the end of the year. So I had a B in his class according to multiple grade cards we got, and then suddenly he put in two huge assignments that I hadn't been in school for, and it instantly went down to an F. You may be thinking, "Oh, well it's your fault, you should've asked for it the day you came back". I DID. I asked for it and he didn't give me it, and I asked the next day and he didn't give me it then either. :/
Also, he has a thing where he gives quizzes with 5 questions, and if you fail (which generally would mean you don't understand the subject, and thus would need further teaching), he doubles the questions. So now you've got 10 questions on a subject you have proven you don't quite understand. You fail, now you have 20 questions to do. This goes on forever because he's still failed to teach you anything.
Okay I need to stop ranting in UA-cam comments. Bye.
I have it. I have a very severe case to. I can barely add simple numbers in my head cause my brain just can't form anything when I try to figure it out. I have made straight F's my whole life in all math subjects throughout my entire school life. The only way I got through school is sheer determination and and help from school faculty cause they saw I was not going to give up.
I create sets up to 5 automatically depending on how many there seem to be at once
For instance, if there are 8 or more, I automatically create a set of 5 without thinking about it, and then the other set is created from the remaining number (if possible)
The only issue I had in this video was the picture of 11 dots and the picture of ~30
The 11 dots was solved with two sets of 5 and an extra
The ~30 dots wasn't solved, as I couldn't create a set that was both large enough to keep track of, and small enough to create quickly
I would love to see more videos with this gentleman! Or that investigate this type of math
I feel like it has to do with visual patterns you can recognize, when you're above 3. If I see a distorted square of dots, it's 4, if 5 are arranged like on a die, it's very easy to group as 5, (if they're in a pentagon, too). If the 5 are randomly scattered, I will likely group them by 2 & 3, or whatever pattern they form.
I always split it into two sections with the largest gap in between dots being the divide between them. So if it's four closer together and three closer together, I did four and three, but if five were closer and then a slightly larger gap and then the other two, I did 5 and 2.
I counted the group of 7 as 2 + 2 and 3, not 4 and 3. I noticed myself grouping after the number of dots were 5 or higher and just as I noticed this, the graph that showed response times changing after 4 came up. The grouping observation that Brady made was brilliant!
You are absolutely right. I believe I am suffering from discalculia, I intend to undergo a test in the coming few weeks, and I absolutely have not been able to learn the multiplication table in my life (I'm 27) and sucked at everything involving numbers (but I'm quite good at understanding the "concepts of numbers") and that makes my life very difficult, indeed.
As a gifted musician-musicologist-theorist, I always had since my early years considerable trouble with formulating words and numbers. I still cannot for the life of me remember phone numbers other than 4 or 5. Math problems required and still require deep and slow pondering. Time limitations stress me to the point of bungling. I know realize my condition may be explained in this video. Sometimes I yet have trouble with financial transactions when going out to town. Only after 20 years of multi-disciplinary autodidactic pursuit was I able to mostly overcome my dislexic and discalculic shortcomings. Engaging microtonal music and physics problems worked wonders for me. I am 41 years now, and as a bilingual Turkish man who plays the piano, bowed tanbur, qanun, ney as well as having several exceptional compositions to my name, I say almost every condition can be alleviated with perseverence.
Very interesting video. I am semi-retired so I have using some of my extra time restudying math I took in high school, and college, which includes algebra, geometry, and trig. I am also learning, or trying to learn, calculus, a type of math which I never studied before. Lately I have also been studying basic physics.
I have always found these subjects interesting, but they have never come very easily to me. One benefit, I find, is that my attempt to learn them has improved my logical thinking, and overall organizational ability. As I keep plugging away, I am finding that am I slowly getting better at these subjects. I seem to grasp new material more quickly than in used to. I also find, in everyday life, my basic math skills have improved considerably. (I realize that this is not really the subject of your video.)
I have this, but after working with a professor in Florida; I was able to pass Physics 101. I could have never done this without help.
SO PROUD OF THOSE WHO CAN SHARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One of my saddest failures in life for me is my inability to do maths well. It's probably the most awesome language that exists but I just can't seem to remember it 😭
Like the interviewer I found myself splitting the dots into groups, even if there were three in one group and four in the other! !!!
I was able to make it to halfway through Calculus I, it was hard, and I was beyond frustrated- but by the second half of Cal I there were so many figures on a page to keep track of, I just would lose it. My professors all commented that I knew HOW to do the problems, but for some reason I was getting lost in the middle. It was a chemistry professor of mine who was able to figure out what my issue was, and help me get diagnosed. He also helped give me some tips on how to compensate for it-
Great stuff.
Even I counted 3 and 4 for 7.
I have a very strong sense of '3' and '4' making '7'. It is simply from dealing with numbers a lot.
genius confirmed.
I first thought I did 3+4, but then right after I changed my mind and thought I did 3+2+2. Now I don't know anymore.
To be fair 3 and 4 are both numbers in the earlier stage so seeing them automatically comes more naturally, so if you do enough maths to have a quick response to 3+4 also, I think it would be the preferred method. I wonder though how high numbers go before this changes... Personally I saw the grouping as 2&2&3 but find the fastest method for me is simply grouping and counting in 2s.
As did I, I immediately counted seven with an easy to recognise 3 and an easy to recognise 4.
Iv been doing the Khan Academy math and im starting to really like it, but I have to learn it in my own way. I listen to the explanation and then i try to make sense of it logically in my head and try to see the order in the numbers. I just now diagnosed myself with Dyscalculia because I could never read analogue clocks unless I did my best and focused.
I don't have it in the extreme like this man talks about, but I think I do have it. I also think i can become better by practice.
wish i could translate this to portuguese so my therapist could see this; he didn't know what it was until I showed him which really says a lot
For all the sets of 7 I counted three and four. I find it easy to look for dice pip patterns or shape patterns (triangles, squares, pentagons).
The thing about thinking you're doing 3 and 4 is that you're not actually doing 4 subconsciously. You are doing 2 sets of 2 so fast that you calculate 4 so fast that you don't conciously recognize that you actually did a calculation at all.
Kyle Harris interesting take
Do you have any evidence for this, or studies to point to? So why then does the counting time increase more steeply after four, and not before that?
i still grouped them together in my head on 3 and 4
Wow. Very interesting clip. Makes sense, even though I never thought or knew about it before.
I was diagnosed in middle school. It was such a vindication. The teachers at my one school said I wasn't paying attention. I was. I was really trying to learn.
I'm much more into the arts though. Always have been.
I have a math impairment/dyscalculia and ADD. I have struggled with math concepts my whole life. My dad has ADD also and his brother and dad have dyslexia. In middle school and high school, I was always very behind in math classes and had to have a tutor but still would struggle. I also have issues with basic counting (stil count on fingers), tipping, money, reading an analog clock and phone numbers.
People talk counting groups, I did 1 by 1 for all of them. 😓
A great video that describes Dyscalculia. Thanks for making your explanation easy to understand.
I'm in college and I found out I had this a few years ago, when I was a senior in high school. I'm taking Pre-calc now, and THANK THE LORD my math professor knows what this is. I can't group those dots, and I get 3 and 5 mixed up, as well as 9 and 6. I also will read a digital clock mixed up. It's very frustrating.
As others have said, I would and did do, 3 + 4 for 7. Sure, they are groups of different numbers, but it's a single group. Counting in groups, in my mind, cuts down on time and complexity. Even if it's a group of three and a group of 4, it's still x + y = z, where x = 3 and y = 4. That's not exaaaactly what I am thinking, but if we are talking in terms of algorithms (I'm a studying programmer) that's the way my thought process would run. The same goes for multiplication: 23 * 15 seems tedious. In reality it is 20 * 10 + 5 * 3, with is much more manageable when computing this quickly. Math nerds (I'm sure plenty are here lol), can understand the connection I'm speaking of, though I'm sure most would be as bad at explaining it as I am.
What you are saying makes sense except for the fact that 23 * 15 =/= 20 * 10 + 5 * 3. The multiplication algorithm you learn in school is very fast (for a human) when you only memorized up to 10 * 10 in the multiplication table, but it requires extra space even for two digit numbers. When you have paper, storing that extra information is pretty easy. But when you don't it starts to matter how you break down the problem into sub problems since some multiplications are quick to compute or memorized.
Many people will break that problem up into 2 * 10 * 15 + 3 * 15 = 345 and this is faster because you have memorized or can quickly compute that 10 * 15 = 150, 150 * 2 = 300, and 3 *15 = 45 so you add up 300 and 45. People who actually memorized multiplication tables up to 20 will be able to do 20 * 15 in constant time (most people have not as it takes 4 times the storage of just the 10s table, which we all remember took a while to memorize - imagine memorizing three more of those, not worth it). Since the problem space is so small, you can keep these sub-problems in memory and do a divide-and-conquer on them and then combine them for the answer.
LIB3RTARIAN1337 Yeah I was kinda drunk when I wrote that and didn't realize the error.
I'm 25 and almost 90 percent positive I have this and it's affecting my everyday life!!! When I was in school it was the worst and that's why I never was able to graduate... This is horrible! It's ruined my whole life! I feel worthless and it's hard for me to find a job. Dyscalculia tears you apart and destroys your self confidence! Is it hereditary or can it happen from brain injury? What about if your parents did drugs while still in the womb? I don't understand why I have this ? I just feel cursed!
The truth is that everyone thinks in their own way, try to work more on skills that you have. In what thought processes do you get stuck?
It's difficult to separate genetic from environmental factors. As far as we know, dyscalculics have differ from non-dyscalculics in the parietal lobes of the brain. These differences can have many causes, including birth trauma and even intrauterine problems. There is some evidence that foetal alcohol syndrome can be a cause, and therefore it is possible that drug use during pregnancy can also be a cause, though there have been no studies on this, as far as I know. It is also possible that the proper remediation can help to reduce differences in the brain, and there is a little evidence in support.
because people who excel in English typically struggle in subjects like math and science because it uses different sectors of the brain..
Large dicks?
re-read what i said. some people are lucky
Dae Blades/Fury It isn't only that. People who excel in language may or may not struggle with numbers, and those who do may or may not suffer from dyscalculia.
I can say that there is the factor of practice, which is quite important; you can more easily express and, in general, function with something you have been working on for a long time; but still, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are not going to express yourself relatively fluently about things that are out of your own interests or practice.
When I looked at the dots, I can actually immediately see a type of structure. I grouped the dots in close vicinity and add the total dots using the groups .
i count making groups too.. even chains sometimes.. helps me keep track of what i've already counted, and what remain.. and it's fairly fast..
Weird, my brain counts the unequal groups faster.
same here lol
Never been tested, but I know I have it. I can't do simple fractions and I've tried three times, in basic pre algebra, in college, and end up dropping it. The last time, I was holding up the class, so I felt I had too. My 19-year-old son, tried teaching me and I about cried, I just can't do it. I want to go back to college and I've heard of a waiver, that would waive the math requirement. What are the odds in acquiring this? I am capable of business math and that was only because I was using it directly, not in school. I plan on going to mortuary school, but I need algebra, as a prerequisite and that is near impossible.
Alice Cries For that waiver to work you’ll need to be diagnosed by a professional and show that to your college. Which is the problem that I have. Where I am from no doctor knows what dyscalculia is so they don’t know how to diagnose it. I can tell my professors that I have problems with math and that I have dyscalculia, because I know myself and I know I do, but without that sheet of paper they can’t do anything.
Alice Darque I had to go through a lot of testing and was given accommodations through the student disability center. I was allowed extra time on exams and the use of a four function calculator on calculator free exams. You can do it. I am now persuing my masters in electrical engineering.
Wtf is mortuary school??
My teacher kept me on the same grade 3 math book for 3 years straight and I still wasn't passing math at all even with 7 different different tutors. I couldn't read the clock to tell the time, I was also dyslexic until I about 8 years old , couldn't even read a book for babies, it was so embarrassing, I can't read a map, or give proper directions and I got beat up and bullied everyday until I dropped out of School to stop the physical and mental abuse I was going through
Try to forget the fact that it's the super-scary a word. Math anxiety doesn't help with dyscalculia. You may want to take a few days to process it. Take it easy.
For example 3n+2=6
Whatever you do to one side, you must do to the other. It's like a scale you're trying to keep balanced. Keep this in mind.
3n+2-2=6-2 (subtract 2 from both sides. Whatever you do to one side, you must do to the other)
3n=4 (3n+2-2=3n because imagine you have a slip of paper that reads '3n'. You then add two counters, only to remove them later. All you're left with is the slip of paper. 6-2=4 because imagine you have 6 counters. You then remove two counters, leaving with 4)
3n/3=4/3 (divided both sides by 3. Whatever you do to one side, you must do to the other)
n=4/3 (3n/3=n because, imagine you have three slips of paper, each marked with n. If you group the three slips of paper into 3 equal groups, you have one slip marked n in each group)
If it still doesn't work, you may try getting tested. I hope you get the waiver. This is just in case you don't get the waiver. Hope this helps!
I love that this video is 11 minutes and 2 seconds (approx 27 seconds) long.
I do that agree with his last point, even on the larger amount of dots like 10 or 11, I'll break it into even more groups, generally my group's will always be at least 3, no more than 5. And then once I have them listed in the order I counted, I amalgamate them and provide my answer. I find this a very useful way of accomplishing the goal. There is my 2 cents. Take from that what you will!
I never do 3 and 3, or 3 and 4. I always do 2, 4, 6, 8, etc.
But you never really "do" 4, 6 or 8, etc. It's all just multiples of 2. 2, 2-2, 2, 2, 2-2-2, 2, 2 -> number.
kindlin
It's cool to reply to a 3 year old comment
*reply *year
Sir Knight
Oh thx
You're welcome :- )
Bollock that I wouldn't break 7 up as 3 and 4. That's the way it's always subitized.
I managed to get the basics of maths down, but only after a lot of help from my ex husband, who just happens to be an accounts lawyer. I eventually went into the finance sector, but I only managed to stay there because it was all systems that did the work for me.
The worst part of all this, and which has followed me into adulthood, is my inability to navigate down a street, read a map, and am always getting lost due to having a faulyt inbuilt compass..
For so long I thought I was mentally deficient, and sadly, so did a couple of my teachers growing up, and the 80's wasn't that long ago, but it was hell at school when maths class came along, I freaked out.
Me too. I always noticed that once a group of objects is greater than 5, it can't be counted simply from a glance unless it can be visually split into separate groups of 5 or less. Generally I find that I favor even-numbered groups, and so it takes me almost as long to count 8 as it does to count 7, the same with 12 and 11 and so on.
I haven't actually tested this, but I imagine I start counting individual dots once the number exceeds about 13.
Sometimes seeing six or seven dots arranged in the shape of a pentagon may fuck up my perception for a second, which leads me to check again and lose crucial time.
This definitely my diagnosis, I haven't been to a psychologist, but I know I have this😩
So glad I found out this right now as a freshman in high school, because if I found out I had this when I was like 50, I would hate my life.
Loving that old Mac! It's super pretty!
I was doing odd numbers of groups.. 4/3, 5/2, etc. Maybe it's because I play so much cribbage though.
I group together groups of dots of different amounts
I'm going to watch this again :-)
i can totaly relate to your point, it goes very differently. But i don't want it to be different, because it brings also very interesting way of thinking and seeing thinks solutions to problems others don't see. (creativity)