How do brains count? - Numberphile
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
- Professor Brian Butterworth is a neuroscientist who specialises in numbers and mathematics. More from this interview at • Digits and Sets (extra... and earlier videos with him at: bit.ly/Brian_Butterworth
More links & stuff in full description below ↓↓↓
Brian's website: www.mathematicalbrain.com
Brian Butterworth playlist: bit.ly/Brian_Butterworth
Discussed papers...
Auditory midbrain neurons that count: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12219...
Mapping human temporal and parietal neuronal population activity and functional coupling during mathematical cognition: www.pnas.org/content/113/46/E...
Numberphile is supported by the Mathematical Sciences Research Institute (MSRI): bit.ly/MSRINumberphile
We are also supported by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science. www.simonsfoundation.org/outr...
And support from Math For America - www.mathforamerica.org/
NUMBERPHILE
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He makes a fair point. If you can't read it's considered a terrible thing, whereas not being able to do math at all is almost seen as normal. You can't fix something if nobody even thinks there's a problem.
Great point! This also relates to prof. Butterworth's argument that the concept of sets of objects, their numerosity and that you can assign particular numbers to them, is very abstract. In other words: most people don't notice they're using simple counting and arithmetic, while using language is much easier to recognise. In daily life simple counting is common, but anything more advanced is way less common than using language. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me that most people feel that being bad at maths isn't as bad as being bad with words, although that might not be true, as the professor stated.
@@ErikHuizinga But using words like numerosity..did he just make that yo..I don't think most people zeven learned and educated people have heard that word..
@@leif1075 surely most people would be able to understand that word based on context and the commonalities it has with well known words
There isn't really a problem. Most people don't need the maths they don't know.
@@MrCmon113 Well, according to what the professor in the video said, this problem affects a person's life more than dyslexia.
I’m always impressed by Brady’s ability to ask very thought provoking questions. Truly an amazing interviewer.
And the ability to ask the exact question I was just thinking of.
Yes clarifying that the frog mating itself wasn't facilitated by sound, and that only the choosing of frog mates was facilitated by sound was very thought provoking.
Do these animals need to know exact numbers or just a greater than or equals to? What a phenomenal question!
He is without doubt one of the best. He has a talent for uncovering the important questions and asking what I imagine many of us are wondering.
He's brilliant
normal people: counting
this guy: extracting numerosity
I think "extracting numerosity" is more of a sliding scale. You can see if some things are more than other things without the concept of numbers or counting.
@@DavidBeaumont The sense I got was that numerosity is the concept/experience of a certain number - when you look at five apples and think "five", you've "extracted numerosity" without having to individually count them - while counting is an algorithm to get from one numerosity to another.
@@jacobdgm Yeah, counting would be the manually 1 by 1 accumulation, whereas "extracting numerosity" would be seeing and immediatly recognizing approximately (and/or relatively) how many things there are
You dont need to count if you can tell which side is more instinctively. This is a really low level thing, a little bit of performance difference is huge on higher level.
I think there was a tribe in south america, that just counted 1,2,3, many. They didn't need words for anything else.
Fish, of course, learn to count in schools. But for a lion, learning it without a school is a point of pride.
Lol
@Shapto Adjie Wahyu Nugroho Patreon stuff
It’s probably the mane point of pride...
I'd be lion if I said I didn't enjoy the puns.
Epic pun.
My neural accumulator had maxed out on the number of times I've heard someone say to Brady "Thats a good question."
Definitely a field with more questions than answers
So true
he should meet the chilli interviews guy and do a double interview
@@SarcastSempervirens who?
false.
"So you suffer from Dracula?" Said the dyslexic to the discalculia sufferer
"I have no idea how many times I've heard that joke"
Imagine playing back a frog chirping and having it on loop. The female would be like "Woah. 10,000 chirps and still going! Now that's my man!"
Froggy Viagra
chuck? chirp? croak?
I just realized recently that this channel is partly the reason why I chose to pursue a maths degree. Thank you Brady.
Same
This channel also has high quality mathematics content. It has 16,133 likes and only 205 dislikes. 98.75% of viewers, I myself included, enjoy this video.
Edit: To get number of dislikes, use the Return YT Dislikes plug-in for Chrome or Firefox. Expect to see nearly 100% likes on Numberphile, cos this channel is perfection. :)
I didn't know that a single neuron could accomplish a specific labelable task "by itself". Pretty cool.
Fire ze neurons! Quickly now!
That is probably the most mind-blowing part of this video
There's been research indicating that a single neuron in humans can be assigned to a celebrity. That's right... somewhere inside your head, there's a Brad Pitt neuron just waiting for the chance to fire!
@Neil Peters It's not false, and it underlines the ability of our neurons to identify a complex concept.
@@RangeWilson citation needed
“We’re not allowed to do that with humans............yet”
He has such a soothing voice :)
ASMR much 😁
@@TegaraMusic 🤔
yeap i thought i was alone in this, probably intentional ASMR trust me XDXD
“What manner of neuron are you that can summon up counting without flint or tinder?”
“I... am a counting neuron”
“By what name are you known?”
“There are some who call me ... TIM"
"quite" *counts really quickly to a tree*
Sou TIM, conto assim.
(General Miner joke. I'm not a General Miner, but I've been there.)
I thought TIM was the timing one though?
King Arthur must have been cursed by Tim the Enchanter to get his threeness and fiveness mixed up.
??
Thought Mr. Butterworth was going to say: " The more things that the monkey sees, the more this particular monkey will do."
Monkey see monkey do 😂
I spit out my contents reading this
@@SpartanFunnyProyect ahh.. you emptied your queue, eh
My thoughts exactly
??
7:10 *Brady:* In a brain, what's is being filled? How neurons store information?
*Prof. Butterworth:* Yes.
Loved that answer.
1:46 The famous "GAXIO - waterproof"
Masterpiece
Ah, the calculator fancier community sure notices the most elegant and wonderful calculator when they see it. :)
@@cyancoyote7366 the gaxios are masterpieces. the only calculator that can change results even with the same input!
I think using that name here is a major infringement against the prestigious Gaxio brand.
They have to uphold their side of the sponsorship deal
I don't think any brand of calculator can rightly be called famous until Matt Parker has done an unboxing on one.
Drawing from my experience as a teacher, I've come to the conclusion that being "bad with numbers" had to become more socially acceptable than to be "bad with words", because numeracy has been traditionally both less crucial for a normal life, and more intimate, easier to keep a secret about. Things are changing now, so maybe we could expect that these matters will get the attention they need.
I really like this blend of math, neuroscience, sociology, and biology. Super fascinating
Ants count the number of steps to their food if they come back later.
In an experiment researchers put stilts on ants and they walked past their food.
No idea if this is true, just love the visual image of ants on stilts
The majority of ants actually is known to walk by pheromones. The ants you may be talking about is a particular species, the Saharan desert ant, Cataglyphis fortis.
@@viniciusmoretti makes sense, no point in leaving a trail of pheromones when the wind just takes it away from you
@@Soken50 smart!
Thank you, I hadn't laughed like this for a long time.
Having been in a primary school that didn't believe in dyslexia for 5 years and having spent 2 and a half years of secondary trying to get moved down a set in maths becuase never being to finish all the questions in time was so demoralising, I am angry and disgusted that dyscalculia isn't officially recognised. Thank you for trying to fix this nonsense.
The idea of a lion sitting around counting on his digits like a small child is one of the cutest things ever to have occupied my imagination. Thank you 🦊
19:00
I'd say "I'm terrible at maths" is like "I'm terrible at analyzing literature", which is also a common sentiment. - Just look at all the rants about curtains being blue.
But saying "I'm terrible at language" or "I'm terrible at reading" is like "I'm terrible at counting", which I don't think would really fly as "OK".
Well it should bc there r dyslexic and discalculic ppl
I mean people can tumble. So yeah, I'd say people can be bad at counting and reading.
No, I’d say ‘I don’t know the alphabet’ is equivalent to ‘I can’t count’.
Being bad at math, would be ‘I’m bad at constructing sentences’.
Sure, degree level maths is equivalent to constructing Shakespearean level sonnets, but most people are rubbish at basic maths (adding, multiplying, fractions), which is like only being able to speak with single syllable words.
> "I'm terrible at analyzing literature"
That's actually easy enough to learn.
If your teacher ever asks, "What was the author's intention?" the answer is "to make tons of money."
@@achtsekundenfurz7876 that isn t the case for ppl that live in communist countries tho
The ending content was heartwarming. Hope people get more responsible about these things.
This captures everything; the essence of numbers, the related neuroscience, and a huge undiscussed social problem: Best Numberphile video of the year!
Thesis: "Making more noises to get partners doesnt apply to humans"
Antithesis: "It does"
Conclusion: From my own testing i can say, it does not attract mates to stand on the street and scream.
It does however attract law enforcement.
Which contains possible mates. Win?
@@zeldamage001 well, if you go far enough, it does include inmates, which is close enough for me
@@Smittel mating and inmates generally don't go together very well, but whatever tickles your fancy I guess :P
In humans it’s more complex. I am sure individuals with a lambo (for instance) which has a very high price tag, will attract more partners because while frogs count burps, humans count $$$.
Maybe the real mates was law enforcement we made along the way
For someone doing a double degree in Mathematics and Neuroscience. I loved this
Woah
May i ask how did it go?
Dayumm
Yeah, I did math and biomedical engineering. I always felt math alone wasn’t enough these days
@@8beef4u lol
Somehow the "numerousity ability" disappears in an important math exam.
So true.
@@AxxLAfriku Donate one to me!
could be a form of panic disorder btw.
@@AxxLAfriku lol
@Yavor Kapitanov not studying is one thing, and studying or even dominate certain information and then forgetting it the moment the exam starts is a totally different one🤔
I very much enjoy when Numberphile makes links into our lives and what it means to function in our society.
I was diagnosed with discalculia when I was young and it was through visual methods that I was able to compensate. I loved this video and appreciate it shining light on an issue that receives so little attention.
To get the funding for the research, call it number dyslexia.
That's actually a different thing. Had a boss with it.
it exists, it's called dyscalculia
@@drmilkweed i'm a terrible person.
I thought your comment was along the lines:
"Want to help on the research of dyscalculia? Then call (???????)"
I'm sorry
@Mr Brightside I also had a boss with dyscalculia and he was a lab teacher and I was his assistant.
It was a bit cringy to hear him saying stuff like one meter is a hundred milimeters or something like that.
Although it was a bit of a bumpy road, I don't think it impacted so much on the classroom
Thanks a billion times for this video! You don't know how much this video means to me since my mind was ways enrapt by this theory I came up with that as the brain works by firing certain neurons and not firing others as a mechanism to differentiate between thought processes like a computer uses ones and zeros, that this should also apply to numbers and counting, where similar to how a computer encodes numbers in binary and represents them that way, we encode numbers with sequences of neuron firing activity. This gave me a lot of insight into this area which has always fascinated me.
This guy is good at communicating these topics, I feel like I could just sit and be lectured by him on any subject for hours long. Amazing teacher indeed.
“We can use very fine electrodes to probe the brains of frogs, but not with humans at the moment.”
“At the moment.”
Neuralink: yes
This was very informative, thank you! I'm currently applying to graduate school in Linguistics and hoping to focus on experimental, especially clinical, research. In fact, I have special interest in rhythmic processing in dyslexics and its implications, so this really got me thinking :)
Edit: I'll be sure to look into Professor Butterworth's work in Dyscalculia as well; I never realized how lacking the resources are
I think that Numberphile is taking here a role that is even greater than before. It feels as if Numberphile is becoming a movement for math. Great job hitting the right nerve.
I’m glad, learning disabilities are discussed more openly nowadays, but there’s still a whole lot to do!
Not too long ago, my dyslexic brother suffered through school with very little help even as his dyslexia had already been found in primary school.
Be happy, atleast in telling people he has dyslexia they might acknowledge that he has it. Try telling people you have dyspraxia and they assume you're an idiot and mean dyslexia.
This is valuable. Gives me new insight on I sat in grade 7 math class getting a headache after 10 questions while the class was finishing 100. Also, the idea of thinking in sets seems helpful. In grade 8, I pictured adding negative and positive numbers together by filling an empty hole with dirt. Made it intuitive. For once, I aced the math test.
More of this please! Absolutely fascinating, one of my favorite videos to date.
This is super fascinating - such an insightful interview! Thank you! :)
This is delightful, thank you. I watch most of the videos, but this one stands out.
For sure
I found this video really really interesting, and a nice sort of change from the typical Numberphile videos. Let's please see more Dr. Butterworth!
My brother has discalculia. Luckily, we were well off enough growing up that he was able to get private special instruction. He learned lots of coping mechanisms and learned to really enjoy maths. He was never any good at arithmetic but he did great in calculus.
if I was a frog, I would invent a "what he said + 1"
Then another frog say that to you, and the Universe collapses in the form of a Natural paradox
@@NoisqueVoaProduction ri-bit (0-1)
@Griphook Flitwick if frog (n) = ri-bit (0-1) then hop (1+ n)
Professor: Since this is Numberphile, I can say that this increases monotonically.
Also Professor: If one frog croaks five times, the other would croak five plus one times. We don't want to confuse the audience with such high level concepts as "six".
x+1 is more general
How many fingers am I holding up?
*peace sign
"The set of your held up fingers exhibits the property of twoness"
@@zedex1226 Hold on, extracting some numerosity
This is fascinating. My youngest son excels at calculus but struggles to read. I am a fast, avid, and comprehending reader but could barely get through elementary algebra years behind my grade level. Understanding these differences at a neural level might provide all sorts of helpful strategies.
I just came to say how awesome this dude appears to be and took a peek if someone had already made the same remark. What I saw restored some of my faith in humanity.
Thank you for this PSA on discalculia. I work in math education & this is so important
Sadly a lot of people compress any dys-x-ia neurological condition down to dyspraxia.
@@FoxDren I'm ignorant of all this, thank you I will look up dyspraxia & learn more
Top tier content! Thank you
Amazing interview, thank you for sharing. Very fascinating.
Every single question you asked is exactly what I would've asked myself, you are crazy good at your job!!!
Thank you for making this kind of video
I seriously hope this turns out to work using nodes of neurons. Imagine your _only_ fiveness neuron dying...
I imagine that neuroplasticity would allow the brain to assign the job of fiveness to a new neuron. Actually now that you mention it, the idea of one or more neurons dying, causing a person to lose some basic ability like recognizing five of something, sounds exactly like what happens to stroke victims.
1, 2, 3, 4, ... wtf is that?!? 😱 ... 6, 7, ...
I'm curious what it would be like to only lose say your twoness neuron. Would the number two then feel like 157, or some other non relatable number? You would probably then have to count three minus one or one plus one each time you think of two, instead of immediately seeing two things. Weird.
Is that what hypnotists do when they "make you forget the number 5"? They just somehow mess with that neuron(s) that embed(s) fiveness?
@@Lobstro maybe. I cant imagine a single neuron dieing having such a huge effect.
Fascinating video. He is very good at conveying this information.
I love the paper guy just chillin behind the bookcase the whole time
Can we take a moment to appreciate the interviewer
Ma man asks questions straight from our brains
Deshmai kae garnuparxa
Love the animations!
I could listen to this man talk for hours! A fountain of information!
From the title, I thought this video was going to be about the different ways we can count things. Different methods and tricks. Counting based on the shape that numbers make in the mind and the gaps between them. Or how you might take a number, let's say 5, as a focusing point on a chart and simply count how many strikes away it is from the target number and in which direction (3 strikes down from 5 is 2). Even in math, how you might break down large numbers into quick and easy formulas and simply tally up the totals of multiple easy calculations rather than trying to process on big calculation as a whole. There are so many different ways to count and make calculations and I think we could all benefit from learning all the secrets and shortcuts. Does the brain even count using the same neurons considering how many different ways there are to calculate a numeric value? As mentioned in the video as well, visible mass alone can be used to approximate a numerical value.
Great video, and very informative.
3:58 those are the cutest frogs I have ever seen
You only think they are cute because they made a lot of noises
Tree frogs are cuties
The gaxio will never go away will it? Love these videos!
Its improving - waterproof now.
What’s the origin of the joke?
@@Aquillyne Yeah I've been wondering the same thing.
This is a great interview. Thanks.
impressive video, one of the best of the entire channel.
The "Gaxio Waterproof" calculator is the best! I'm glad to see it made a re appearance.
FIND THE NEURON CLUSTER THAT HANDLES COMPLEX NUMBERS
You mean the iBrain?
And Quaternions!
I would assume it would be the same cluster that is associated with the visual aspect of learning numbers seeings how we use graphs and the like to help visualize complex numbers in school.
@@harriehausenman8623 And N-ions!
It's the same associational area of the parietal lobe. Most mathematicians treat complex numbers as paired numbers (or at the very least as points in a geometric plane).
i just gotta say the animation for these videos is always great and super welcome!
One of the best videos you have ever made. Numerically.
Great video. Adding dyscalculic to my vocabulary.
My TIM gene tells me thats there were an awful lot of time between Hello Internet episodes.
If the series is over, they should at least come out and say it’s done
My TIM gene is more useful in gauging the time between Unmade podcast episodes.
@@keithbromley6070 But Unmade podcast listeners are 'civilians' not 'Tims'. Maybe you have a 'civilian' gene and have got them mixed up?
@@Varksterable Maybe, or perhaps it just tells me when it’s time to listen to Tim again.
But if your name is Tim ....
Excellent interview re: ‘discountituity’, an invisible and debilitating disorder that’s high-cost for individuals, families & economies. The ability to recognize & utilize numbers is also critical for self-sufficiency.
Fascinating topic, thank you very much, Professor Butterworth! I have always been fascinated by the inner intricacies of the brain. And being a Maths student, learning about how the brain process numbers and basic arithmetic is doubly amazing.
As always, Brady and Numberphile, I can't thank you enough for what you do.
PS: Also loved the Gaxio easter egg.
16:19 - 16:39 Fecking hilarious. That escalated quickly.
That was fascinating - thank you
I have wondered about this! Thank you!
Wow, this is amazing! Very well done. 👍🏻😀
we all know that if we let the frogs go on forever they would end up having done a total of -1/12 sounds
Only quantum frogs would make that happen.
false.
"called Tim"
T-T-T-Tim?
(cries in Hello Internet)
NickNine "There are some who call me ... TIM!"
That one person named Tim
VERY interesting question for a 20 minute Numberphile video! Thanks Brady!!
It’s interesting to hear about this. I’ve been working in engineering so numbers and methods kind of come naturally to me and I am aware of dyslexia i have never thought about discalculia in a similar way.
I *need* one of these Gaxio calculators.
Where can i buy the Gaxio waterproof calculators from?
Gapan.
This is really neat! It's helpful for me to understand people who just aren't as able to do arithmetic.
Very interesting interview. I have a new perspective on my partner and youngest. I and my two oldest are very comfortable with numbers, but my partner and youngest have considerable difficulty with the examples given (sets etc). I think we need to look more closely at the topic and see if it is directly relevant to us, but I can also now appreciate how relevant it is to many others. My thanks.
"Brian" talks abot the "Brain"
Ahaha I like that reference
Brians brain talks about brains brian
Wait
@@vladthe_cat
brain's Brian talks about Brian's brain
"abot" makes it only funnier
If this joke is lost on you, you might be dyslexic.
"Numerosity" thats officially my favorite word of the week xD
Thoroughly enjoyed this vid
This video reinforces (validates?) the mental model that I have of mathematics ability, which ability has always seemed somewhat different than learning in other academic areas. My model is that learning maths is a stair-step function in that the ability to understand may ascend a number of steps but will come to a halt at a discrete step at some point, a figurative brick wall, and no amount of review of previous steps will enable understanding past an individual's limit. Many other areas of learning can be modeled by an inclined plane, wherein review, effort and time will help (but there's a limit here, too).
“The Fittest Male in the Swamp”??? At last my autobiography has a title!
It's suffishent to know which shoal has more fish.
zing
@Normal Person its a pun
@@mob3p1c
He meant fici...
It's sufficient to know which shoal has more fici.
Hhheeerrreee fici ficiii
I almost scrolled by angry at how badly you misspelled that. Glad my brain kicked in eventually and I got to enjoy it lol
"You hit on a raw nerve..." Haha made me laugh :D Great professor, I can feel like how it would be exciting sitting in his courses.
Very, very instructive.
It's crazy how we can be prompt to throw out judgment on people, where in reality even big-brain brain specialist Brian happens to be clueless about fundamental psycho-physiologic traits.
I've always said I was numerically dyslexic. Now I have a term for it. Dyscalculic.
I wonder if there is any relation between certain neurons being attuned to certain numbers and my particular brand of OCD (numbers and counting.)
veeeery likely indeed.
This video was super interesting w.r.t. maths , biology, philosophy, politics. So cool! Thanks Brady
that was so well explained and really interesting
Can someone add a few thousand neurons to the part of my brain that was responsible of flunking calculus?
Do you want to be better or worse at flunking calculus?
@@alistairmackintosh9412 much worse.
I enjoyed Calc.
4:08 "The choice of a mating at least.. Not the mating itself"
I don't know man.. Have you seen how far a frog's tongue can reach?
I've always been fascinated with how humans can count things automatically. I've found i can recognize up to 5 items without counting sequentially or thinking about it, which is about the average from what i've read. I tend to break everything into 2's and 3's though when i'm counting concrete items quickly. I will usually count sequentially if its abstract items.
This video will be vary useful in our research, thank you.
I spent several hours contemplating this while on LSD and emerged utterly dumbfounded at this feat. How is it that we can reliably produce an accurate model of our environment that will persist while it can be analyzed and compared to subsequent observations? It's such a delicate mess.
14:07: "A set has a definite number of members; if you add another member, it changes the numerosity". Cantor: "Hold the middle third of my beer!"
Great content!
Interesting
Love to hear how this relates to frequency (audio + visual), timbre pitch, rhythm
At the neuronal scale and also the memory detection for choreography of all kinds
Love this
Keep them coming
I mean sight is is processed as 3 intensity values (for colour) that map to what we see as colours so I don't think there is any frequency analysis going on there but for listening we are able to extract part of sounds quite well, maybe not extracting single frequencies since there are sounds we perceive as a single sound that are made up from different frequencies but more patterns of frequencies over time.
I cloud imagine that for sounds that we connect with meaning (like words, or a police siren) the sound is matched against stored patterns but there would also be quite a bit of flexibility to allow for different voices and different speed and pitch so maybe looking at the fourier transformation of the signal would be easier