Fair Dice (Part 1) - Numberphile

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  • Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
  • Probability expert Professor Persi Diaconis (Stanford University) talking about dice.
    More links & stuff in full description below ↓↓↓
    Part 2: • Fair Dice (Part 2) - N...
    Tadashi and Dice: • The Most Powerful Dice...
    More dice videos: bit.ly/Dice_Videos
    More Persi Diaconi videos: bit.ly/Persi_Videos
    Diaconis/Keller paper on fair dice: bit.ly/FairDicePaper
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  • Наука та технологія

КОМЕНТАРІ • 996

  • @carpedm9846
    @carpedm9846 4 роки тому +1116

    "There are 5 fair dice."
    *angry d2 noises

    • @LannasMissingLink
      @LannasMissingLink 4 роки тому +157

      *d2 lands on its side

    • @The_Murder_Party
      @The_Murder_Party 4 роки тому +33

      deniz-usta Gedik *angry d20 noises.*

    • @theprocastinators9518
      @theprocastinators9518 4 роки тому +45

      @@The_Murder_Party *Angrily rolls percentile dice*

    • @The_Murder_Party
      @The_Murder_Party 4 роки тому +26

      The Procastinators I mean to be fair percentile are two d10s, but this is fair.

    • @draxthemsklonst
      @draxthemsklonst 4 роки тому +12

      Never had a D2. Is there a die for that? Or is it a coin?

  • @z-beeblebrox
    @z-beeblebrox 7 років тому +682

    I love this guy's name. It's like the name someone would have in a medieval fantasy story.
    "Quick, m'lord! We must reach the king's statistician Persi Diaconis before sundown or all hope is lost! He's the only one who knows how to make a fair die out of non-regular polygons!"

    • @irisidem6580
      @irisidem6580 5 років тому +40

      Finally, a name for my NPC wizard.

    • @linkmariokirby7373
      @linkmariokirby7373 4 роки тому +20

      It is rumoured that the legendary artificer, Persi Diaconis of the Order of the Logician, once created an object that appeared to be a normal dice. In truth, this dice was filled with magic, and power, and quite a lot of hatred, and its roll would influence the very fate of the world...

    • @aurelia8028
      @aurelia8028 4 роки тому +3

      Yeah his name is awesome! :D

    • @marksimmons5872
      @marksimmons5872 2 роки тому +2

      Be careful not to attack him though, he does 2d10 math damage.

    • @berryzhang7263
      @berryzhang7263 Рік тому

      It sounds like something out of the game twisted wonderland and I love it

  • @klaxoncow
    @klaxoncow 7 років тому +2596

    All a D&D player wants to know is whether the D20 is a fair dice. ;D

    • @ukasznosal3657
      @ukasznosal3657 7 років тому +480

      That's the regular icosahedron, one of platonic shapes which he described as fairest.

    • @KuraIthys
      @KuraIthys 7 років тому +169

      Yes. I did wonder if the d20 was in the standard platonic solids set... I suppose the most questionable die used in D&D (aside from one for which no dice formally exist, such as d100, or d2) would be the d10.
      All the others are platonic solids. d4, d6, d8, d12, and d20, and then d10...

    • @Vcdomith
      @Vcdomith 7 років тому +7

      i guess

    • @bronzedivision
      @bronzedivision 7 років тому +25

      It never is...

    • @CasMullac
      @CasMullac 7 років тому +82

      Wil Wheaton might disagree.

  • @dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668
    @dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668 5 років тому +322

    Fair dice: Not the DM's

    • @Watchers_Puppet
      @Watchers_Puppet 4 роки тому +15

      As a Dungeon master I approve this message.

  • @Tolop07
    @Tolop07 7 років тому +238

    Your channel turned me from a person who thought they hated maths, to someone who appreciates its beauty, thanks!

    • @Guru_1092
      @Guru_1092 5 років тому +16

      I've always appreciated math. Its basically our way of explaining the universe.
      I'm just absolutely garbage at it, and that makes me bitter.

    • @camdix3250
      @camdix3250 Рік тому

      @@Guru_1092 I know just how you feel. I share that bitterness as well.

  • @wvvwkx
    @wvvwkx 7 років тому +651

    In high school our physics teacher used to choose people for oral exams by throwing a 30 sided die lol

    • @redbeam_
      @redbeam_ 7 років тому +73

      that sounds so weird and disgusting...

    • @natea5225
      @natea5225 6 років тому +27

      redbeam_ why?

    • @emersonharris142
      @emersonharris142 6 років тому +94

      @Nate his mind is in the gutter, "oral exams"

    • @natea5225
      @natea5225 6 років тому +28

      Emerson Harris I know. Im just saying that it shouldn't sound dirty and that his mind is in the gutter.

    • @OonHan
      @OonHan 6 років тому +6

      is it fair?

  • @stevenmartinez1230
    @stevenmartinez1230 7 років тому +52

    For anyone interested, here are the names of the shapes shown at 7:20
    Left to right, then top to bottom;
    cube/hexahedron, octahedron, pentagonal hexecontahedron, pentagonal icosahedron.

    • @tubevolts
      @tubevolts 5 років тому +4

      *opens gaming shop called "Die, die, die!"*

    • @themobiusfunction
      @themobiusfunction 2 роки тому +2

      The missing one is pentakis dodecahedron

    • @angerberry
      @angerberry Рік тому +1

      @AINIEL YABUT the "not sure" shape is actually a rhombic dodecahedron

    • @KiryokuYT
      @KiryokuYT 29 днів тому

      You're a legend. This comment should be pinned.

  • @misdelivereddishwasher1011
    @misdelivereddishwasher1011 5 років тому +15

    The way this man describes dice reinforces the idea that there's a very fine line between insanity and genius.

  • @shanedk
    @shanedk 7 років тому +284

    I once saw 7-sided dice, that were basically extruded pentagons. And my initial reaction was that there's no way such a die could be fair, but then I thought about it for a few minutes.
    If you have a pentagon that's extruded very thinly, like a wafer, then it'll be biased in favor of the two pentagonal faces and the other 5 faces will hardly ever show up. If it's extruded several feet, then the two pentagonal faces will hardly ever show up and you'll usually get one of the 5 others. So there MUST be a sweet spot in the middle where the biases cancel out, and you'll get one of the pentagonal faces 2 out of 7 times!

    • @shanedk
      @shanedk 7 років тому +47

      Ah, I see now he covered that in Part 2! Maybe not so fair after all...

    • @ArcheoLumiere
      @ArcheoLumiere 7 років тому +22

      meh, tops are really useful for X sided dice, take the dreidel for example.

    • @crackedemerald4930
      @crackedemerald4930 6 років тому +2

      INFINET SIDE DIAS!

    • @Luigicat11
      @Luigicat11 5 років тому +8

      It'd just make more sense to have a heptagonal prism and round the edges for a 7-sided die. That's what they did for the 3-sided die.

    • @KnakuanaRka
      @KnakuanaRka 5 років тому +7

      I think standupmaths (a side channel for Matt Parker) did a video on a similar problem, finding the dimensions that would make a cylinder work as a 3-sided die. I remember that when they were trying to calculate it, they got two different results based on what area was selected for the random distribution, and they tried rolling a bunch of such dice themselves, but I don’t remember if they got any results from that. There were a bunch of people in the comments (including me) who were saying that it would never work due to the fundamental lack of symmetry between the sides of the cylinder. In particular, the way you throw it majorly affects the results; ie, throwing it so it rolls along its axis means that you would get far fewer of the two ends and too many of the band.
      Essentially, isohedral dice are fair because all the sides are interchangeable. However you throw the die, it can be oriented beforehand so that it has the same overall shape and thus rolls the same way, but any other side you want ends up on top. Because of this, if the original position of the die is random and unknown, so is the resulting roll. This is not true for the cylindrical die; you can’t put the band in the place of one of the ends, or vice versa. So it can never truly be fair. Just use a top for stuff like that, or try cubical dice and count opposite sides the same.
      PS: speaking of the starting position being unknown, some people there tried to argue that this argument was wrong because ordinary dice can also be affected by the way you throw them. For example, some people have become well-known for cheating at craps via something called the blanket roll; basically, they throw the dice so that they roll around only one axis (similar to what I said about the cylindrical die), and like that, the two sides at the end of the axis (in this case, usually 1 and 6) were less likely to end up on top. My answer to that is that this effect depends on the original position of the die being known; the blanket roller has to look at the dice and put the 1 and 6 where they want them for this to work. If they just grabbed the die and threw it without looking, their chances of getting, say, a 1 wouldn’t be any different from before. Again, this is because the dice’s sides are interchangeable; the cylindrical die’s aren’t, so they can’t be thrown fairly.

  • @jekyllgaming99
    @jekyllgaming99 7 років тому +13

    "Small changes in the initial conditions change what side faces up"
    In othere words, dice are not just random, but chaotic :D

  • @ChristopherFonseka
    @ChristopherFonseka 7 років тому +362

    Is it possible to make strategically unfair dice?
    I've always wanted to make a 12 sided dice, with the same probabilities as two 6 sided die

    • @jmiquelmb
      @jmiquelmb 7 років тому +56

      Maybe you could make the faces with the central values larger than the ones with the extreme values? Make 7 huge and 1 and 12 tiny.

    • @birdy_coolbeans
      @birdy_coolbeans 7 років тому +143

      one problem with that is that two 6-sided dice will never land on a sum total of 1.

    • @ndrsbrtls
      @ndrsbrtls 7 років тому +86

      There are only eleven possible outcomes to a 2D6 throw. ;)
      Still an interesting question, though.

    • @JossLun
      @JossLun 7 років тому +15

      jmiquelmb: I would say the opposite, because big faces are more stable, thus, if 7 is on a small face opposite to 12, probability would be correct.

    • @jmiquelmb
      @jmiquelmb 7 років тому +3

      Josselin Luneau If I undertand well, larger faces would mean more probability. Then, 7 should be in the larger one because it's the most probable result, while 2 and 12 (not 1 and 12 like I said incorrectly before) should be on the smaller ones. It's easier to get a central number on a two dice throw because there's more possible combination outcomes (7: 6+1, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2, 1+6; 2 and 12: just 1+1 and 6+6)

  • @WillReddish
    @WillReddish 7 років тому +45

    6:47 I was waiting for him to mention a d10, then he invented it

    • @PhilHibbs
      @PhilHibbs 7 років тому +9

      What he described is not a traditional d10, a d10 is a dodecahedron with two faces extruded to points. On a d10, the faces interlock with two opposite faces. His d10 only has one opposite face connected to each.

  • @JossLun
    @JossLun 7 років тому +13

    There is one of the interests of simulating chance: once they're balanced, all virtual die are fair.

  • @Czeckie
    @Czeckie 7 років тому +19

    "Talking to me about dice and fairness is like talking to a California wine person about wine - it can go forever."
    Please do!!

  • @irinore
    @irinore 4 роки тому +25

    That d4 awakened a deep anger within me

  • @michael1234252
    @michael1234252 5 років тому +5

    4:20 reminds me how a standard 3x3x3 Rubik's cube works. When you make one full turn on one side it stays in the cube shape. But when you change the shape into lets say a Rhombohedron while still keeping the same turning cuts as a standard 3x3x3 Rubik's cube it starts to change shape when mixing it up.

  • @tommy_svk
    @tommy_svk 2 роки тому +9

    So I tried making an actual list of the fair dice as shown at 7:23, using these visuals and the original paper. Here's what I've got:
    D6 - regular cube
    D8 - regular octahedron
    D60 - pentagonal hexecontahedron
    D24 - pentagonal icositetahedron
    D60 - pentakis dodecahedron
    D12 - rhombic dodecahedron
    D30 - rhombic triacontahedron
    D24 - triakis octahedron
    D4 - regular tetrahedron
    D24 - tetrakis hexahedron
    D60 - triakis icosahedron
    D60 - deltoidal hexecontahedron
    D12 - triakis tetrahedron
    D24 - deltoidal icositetrahedron
    The infinite family of bipyramids (pictured is the triagonal bipyramid I believe)
    D48 - disdakys dodecahedron
    D120 - disdakys triacontahedron
    D12 - regular dodecahedron
    D20 - regular icosahedron
    After that I am kinda lost. The visuals are confusing me a bit, cause the deltoidal icositetrahedron and disdakys dodecahedron seem to be there twice (at positions 14 and 22 and positions 16 and 21 respectovely). The second to last shape also looks like just a regular octahedron, which is already listed before. The last one also looks like a rhombic dodecahedron, also already listed. Furthermore, after reading the original paper, I've come to understand that the fair dice are: 5 Platonic Solids, 13 duals of Archimedean Solids (known as Catalan Solids) and 2 infinite families. Based on the paper I think the infinite families are supposed to be bipyramids and trapezohedra.
    But that's all I got and that's just 20 families. The video says there should be 30, but I can't figure out what the remaining solids in the video are supposed to represent and the paper seems to be talking about only 20 families as well, unless I missed something. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

    • @watchman9198
      @watchman9198 11 місяців тому

      My man that was a lot of work

  • @grapefruittango4707
    @grapefruittango4707 7 років тому +16

    "I have a thirty sided dice" Who wants to bet that he got it to play D&D

  • @FirstnameLastname-bh9qs
    @FirstnameLastname-bh9qs 4 роки тому +80

    "There are only five fair dice, d4, d6, d8, d12, and d20" *sweats in white wolf*

    • @gillasosaurus
      @gillasosaurus 4 роки тому +5

      D10 bruh

    • @InfernalBanana
      @InfernalBanana 4 роки тому +11

      Wild Magic Sorcerer: *Sweats in D100*

    • @williamcole7488
      @williamcole7488 3 роки тому +2

      D10

    • @AlexH274
      @AlexH274 3 роки тому +1

      @@gillasosaurus d10 isn't fair. Vertices of 4 or 5 depending on position.

    • @brettonjohansen1619
      @brettonjohansen1619 3 роки тому +2

      @@AlexH274 k, but they're statistically equally likely, which is what matters when it comes to fairness

  • @Zirkalaritz
    @Zirkalaritz 7 років тому +13

    "(...)new Tadashi video soon, that's something to get excited"
    Oh Brady, you know your audience so well...

  • @daedra40
    @daedra40 7 років тому +3

    This was as mathematically and philosophically as beautiful a video ad any other numberphile video as I've watched ever.

  • @derbistheeternal2947
    @derbistheeternal2947 7 років тому +122

    Dammit! I thought this video had the man with a thousand Klein bottles when I saw the thumbhnail but it was an impostor.

    • @slep5039
      @slep5039 7 років тому +1

      Right?!?

    • @yellowmeerkat97
      @yellowmeerkat97 7 років тому +9

      Ah, but this is Perci Diaconis, a magician who studied with Dai Vernon. Just as interesting. Problem is, Brady has no reason to ask him about it.

    • @neosoul2203
      @neosoul2203 7 років тому +18

      Cliff Stohlen Identity

    • @tafazzi-on-discord
      @tafazzi-on-discord 3 роки тому

      Make it stop.

  • @owdeezstrauz1268
    @owdeezstrauz1268 4 роки тому +9

    6:45 did he just say "fivegon"??? 😞

  • @SuperOm1234
    @SuperOm1234 7 років тому +154

    'Fair dice' feels like it should be a saying ...

    • @jmiquelmb
      @jmiquelmb 7 років тому +46

      I think what you said is fair dice

    • @SuperOm1234
      @SuperOm1234 7 років тому +4

      jmiquelmb
      haha! yeah, just like that :)

    • @B3nnub1rd
      @B3nnub1rd 7 років тому +2

      I cannot talk about probability all day like Prof Persi, but I'll watch any Numberphile video, so- fair dice.

    • @DioJK
      @DioJK 7 років тому +1

      I think what he said is but a parker square of a fair dice

    • @hobbified
      @hobbified 7 років тому +1

      No dice.

  • @Awgolas
    @Awgolas 5 років тому +105

    Casinos HATE This Man: Find Out Why

    • @MrJdsenior
      @MrJdsenior 3 роки тому

      Yeah, right, because Casinos make so much less money before him than after him. What the heck are you talking about? I'm not sure you know how Casinos work. Either that, or you haven't thought the statement through. The point where the rubber meets the road is the point where the rubber meets the road, and I can prove that mathematically.

  • @tommessig2060
    @tommessig2060 7 років тому +15

    love this! being a gamer i roll dice all the time, so this is a great video.

  • @misterterse94
    @misterterse94 7 років тому

    Heard him speak in New York a few weeks ago. Really entertaining and insightful speaker.

  • @itchykami
    @itchykami 7 років тому

    I love how often I come up with an issue with something someone is saying, and the question is brought up in the video.

  • @NonDelusional74611
    @NonDelusional74611 7 років тому +95

    If all the dimples in a golf ball could be numbered, would it be fair??

    • @bgbong0
      @bgbong0 7 років тому +23

      Only if it were possible to space every dimple evenly apart, and make sure all dimples have the same number of adjacent dimples in a way that is identical and symmetrical to every other dimple. Someone who know more about the design of golf balls could probably say for sure.
      EDIT: After watching a few videos the best I can really say is; maybe? I'm pretty sure golf balls are carefully designed to meet the right criterion for fairness, because a fair dimple placement is required for aerodynamics, which is the whole reason golf balls have dimples in the first place.

    • @edderiofer
      @edderiofer 7 років тому +15

      Probably not. If you look closely, you see that some dimples are next to five other dimples, and others are next to 6. This means that the symmetry of a golf ball isn't face-transitive.
      It could be possible to create a golf ball to be experimentally fair despite this, but why would you want to? Just use a random number generator or something.

    • @antoniolucibello233
      @antoniolucibello233 7 років тому +1

      Since it's round, it wouldn't stop turning until something stopped it or it finished all the momentum, so it wouldn't land and you wouldn't be able to recognize the face it shows

    • @gummipalle
      @gummipalle 7 років тому +16

      There are 100 sided dice, they look like golf-balls....

    • @KaitouKaiju
      @KaitouKaiju 6 років тому +1

      Yes, if it were perfectly spherical and dimpled in such a way where one is directly across from another through the center.

  • @Adderkleet
    @Adderkleet 7 років тому +49

    Great to see Game Science dice in use.

    • @attar81
      @attar81 7 років тому +1

      Zocchi dice!

    • @Desmaad
      @Desmaad 7 років тому

      I'm guessing he chose them because of their purported fairness.

    • @gothicsoldier
      @gothicsoldier 7 років тому +8

      I got my game science dice to overcome dice superstition, and have since become superstitious about using any dice that aren't my game science dice

    • @allanchampie2872
      @allanchampie2872 5 років тому

      Adderkleet that’s what I thought! I saw the clipped corners on the d4.

    • @paulcoy9060
      @paulcoy9060 5 років тому

      I was hoping he would said something about the sprue discoloration.

  • @Peglegkickboxer
    @Peglegkickboxer 7 років тому +4

    this brings back memories of crystallography. Good o'l mineral symmetry groups.

  • @gimmeumoney
    @gimmeumoney 7 років тому +1

    Wasn't anyone else blown away when he said a guy roled a dice 3,500,000 times and recorded the results?!?!

  • @cpt_nordbart
    @cpt_nordbart 7 років тому +62

    what about this dice guy? did he end up with equal results for all 6 sides of a die?

    • @turun_ambartanen
      @turun_ambartanen 7 років тому +6

      don't think so. they mentioned the weight difference, especially between 1 and 6, shortly after talking baou him.
      i guess he had less 6s than 1s.

    • @BeatlesCuber
      @BeatlesCuber 7 років тому

      he would of been infinitely close.

    • @samshygiene3202
      @samshygiene3202 7 років тому +40

      Pretty sure it would be more 6's. 1 is less material removed therefore heavier and more likely to be on the bottom. The inverse is true for 6.

    • @RmonikMusic
      @RmonikMusic 7 років тому +5

      I think you would need an absurd amount of data to notice that difference to be honest.

    • @sk8rdman
      @sk8rdman 7 років тому +19

      Well, he rolled it 3.5 million times, so...

  • @adityakhanna113
    @adityakhanna113 7 років тому +108

    Pro-fair-sor Die-cone-is...
    :)

    • @B3nnub1rd
      @B3nnub1rd 7 років тому +4

      I'll never forget his name again!

    • @drifter23337
      @drifter23337 7 років тому +4

      I took discrete probability at SUNY Albany with Professor Martin Hildebrand, whom I think had this Professor Diaconis as his PhD advisor. I imagine this professor has advised many PhD candidates, but Hildebrand seemed to stand out as pretty brilliant (Harvard PhD after all). Any of you guys take classes with Professor Diaconis or any of his "descendants"? I do believe my prof at UAlbany has (obviously) published with Prof Diaconis as well....

    • @emmettraymond8058
      @emmettraymond8058 5 років тому

      Nomen est omen!

  • @hennadiimadan6993
    @hennadiimadan6993 6 років тому

    Ahhh, procrastination brings me back to my work, AND to E.T. Jaynes's book I'm in the process of reading!

  • @tomfieselmann5906
    @tomfieselmann5906 5 років тому +2

    Hahahaha! "Caught me there... Let me AMEND the statement of my theorem...." - Love it...

  • @jansenart0
    @jansenart0 3 роки тому +5

    So, the d30 is somewhat similar to a soccer ball, in that it's a shape made of a pattern of two different subshapes, namely 3x5-rhomboids and 5x3-rhomboids, and because of that, some values are more likely to show than others.
    Now I'm really curious as to the frequency distribution of a d30. If anyone knows where to find that, please drop me a line!

    • @RDSk0
      @RDSk0 2 роки тому +2

      No, the d30 is a rhombic triacontahedron, it's made of one shape - the golden rhombus - and all values are equally likely to appear, assuming the weight is evenly distributed.

    • @jansenart0
      @jansenart0 2 роки тому

      @@RDSk0 Yes, it's all one facet shape. No, they're not all as likely to show up because of how they're grouped.

  • @donaldasayers
    @donaldasayers 5 років тому +3

    6:00 The edges on a rhombic triacontahedron ARE transitive. See Wiki on the triacontahedron

  • @DouglasZwick
    @DouglasZwick 7 років тому

    Ooooh, he got me all excited at the end there about the next Tadashi video!

  • @jordiperellogelabert1770
    @jordiperellogelabert1770 7 років тому

    You're more than welcome Brady! Best channel ever!

  • @DorthLous
    @DorthLous 7 років тому +10

    "same specific gravity"... Oh boy.

  • @the_kraken6549
    @the_kraken6549 4 роки тому +50

    *Several D&D players including myself are typing*

  • @Gremlins422
    @Gremlins422 7 років тому +2

    Thanks for making great videos with smart people Brady! :)

  • @necruo7724
    @necruo7724 4 роки тому +1

    For an algorythm/symetry nerd like me, this is as entertaining as watching a movie in a cinema for normal people

  • @DrSnap23
    @DrSnap23 7 років тому +167

    Would a tesseract be a fair die though ? =D

    • @andrasfogarasi5014
      @andrasfogarasi5014 7 років тому +37

      A hypercube, yes.

    • @31nar288
      @31nar288 7 років тому +64

      Yeah, it would have the same chance to land on all 8 volumes.

    • @snigefar
      @snigefar 7 років тому +14

      They have made a video called "Perfect Shapes in Higher Dimensions" that is kind of this problem in higher dimensions.

    • @jacksainthill8974
      @jacksainthill8974 7 років тому +25

      +31nar288
      Correction, all 8 _cubes_.
      (Nobody says that a 3D die lands on one of its _areas_.)
      Liked anyway.
      Cheers
      ;)
      [Edited to add] On second thoughts. maybe even _cubes_ isn't right. What (3D) corresponds to 2D _sides_?

    • @bgbong0
      @bgbong0 7 років тому +15

      You'd have to make sure you were throwing it in 4 dimensional space too, though, since in our 3D space it would only flip in 3 different directions which would make it unfair.

  • @whatthefunction9140
    @whatthefunction9140 7 років тому +95

    is this the klein bottle guys brother?

    • @NonTwinBrothers
      @NonTwinBrothers 7 років тому +13

      Ummm.... no.

    • @whatthefunction9140
      @whatthefunction9140 7 років тому +53

      Well you username checks out. I trust you.

    • @jumpman8282
      @jumpman8282 7 років тому +8

      Persi Diaconis.
      Cliff Stoll.
      Maybe half brothers...

    • @ThePCguy17
      @ThePCguy17 6 років тому +1

      It's the same guy, people.
      Geez, I hope you're all joking...

  • @danielribastandeitnik9550
    @danielribastandeitnik9550 7 років тому +1

    Very interesting! I had the same idea when he showed a dice made from a pentagon.

  • @MoltandMigrate
    @MoltandMigrate 7 років тому +1

    "turning it around three things"
    I love this guy~

  • @PhilBagels
    @PhilBagels 7 років тому +3

    Actually, all the edges on a rhombic triacontahedron (the 30-sider) are in fact the same. You can map any edge onto any other edge the same way you can for the faces.
    The fair dice shapes are sometimes called "Catalan Solids" or "Archimedean Duals".

    • @DanielFerreira-ez8qd
      @DanielFerreira-ez8qd 2 роки тому

      I'm 5 years late to warning you not to argue with the old mathematician.

    • @PhilBagels
      @PhilBagels 2 роки тому +1

      @@DanielFerreira-ez8qd I'm not arguing. I'm just stating a fact. And why in the world should anyone need to be "warned" not to argue with a mathematician?

    • @DanielFerreira-ez8qd
      @DanielFerreira-ez8qd 2 роки тому

      @@PhilBagels I didn't mean "argue" in the aggressive manner, just that you corrected the math man, which is a humorous thing to do in a scenario where you could be corrected immediately. This ain't one of those obviously, I'm just messing around

    • @PhilBagels
      @PhilBagels 2 роки тому +1

      @@DanielFerreira-ez8qd But I'm right,

  • @NeuroDrone
    @NeuroDrone 7 років тому +7

    Rolls damage: 40k6

  • @ozdergekko
    @ozdergekko 7 років тому

    Thanks for legibly showing the complete paper!

  • @RobleViejo
    @RobleViejo 4 роки тому

    You know he is a genius as he closes his eyes while explaining because he is visualizing it.

  • @kronologie
    @kronologie 7 років тому +5

    7:20 That audio editing though...

  • @noredine
    @noredine 7 років тому +22

    I guess the sphere is the fairest of them all, but then again it can sit in the middle of multiple answers

    • @Quantiad
      @Quantiad 7 років тому +2

      Make it transparent and have a multi-directional laser in the centre that fires out vertically so you can better see what number it's landed on. Cheap and perfectly safe. Problem solved.

    • @jorgebaescaetano5416
      @jorgebaescaetano5416 7 років тому +2

      In my opinion its not because the way it rolls. The sphere if you look in terms of phisycs it only rolls at 1 direction, by the other way cubes turns on all directions. I don't know, i'm just giving my thoughts

    • @noredine
      @noredine 7 років тому +1

      now that i think about it , a sphere has only one side...

    • @pablogriswold421
      @pablogriswold421 7 років тому +1

      Of course, it depends on the rolling substrate. If it's lumpy, the sphere is super fair (if you've just labeled sections as sides), but as Jorge said, you completely control the one axis of rotation if you roll it on something flat.

    • @1ucasvb
      @1ucasvb 7 років тому +2

      Always a critical failure.

  • @ch4r1z4u0153
    @ch4r1z4u0153 7 років тому +1

    Absolutely fascinating - I'd love to see a big venn diagram of face transitive, edge transitive and vertex transitive solids (maybe I should get to work on it myself...)

  • @ian9372
    @ian9372 7 років тому +1

    I saw a 7-sided die. It was a pentagonal prism, so two sides were pentagons and there were 5 sides that were connecting them. The guy who made it was talking about how if you look at it, the pentagons look so much larger than the smaller connecting sides, and you'd think there was a higher chance of the pentagons landing up, but there actually wasn't. He made bets with people where if it landed on a pentagon, he'd give them one dollar, and if it landed on the others, they'd give him two. Of course, he ended up winning because it was a fair die.

  • @DannyPhantom288
    @DannyPhantom288 3 роки тому +4

    Спасибо за видео очень интересно и полезно

  • @cq.cumber_offishial
    @cq.cumber_offishial 4 роки тому +3

    4:45 as you can see, there is a small triangle at each corner of the tetrahedron, which means there is a chance, an astronomically small chance, that the die can land exactly on the small triangle.

    • @user4241
      @user4241 2 роки тому

      Exactly. It's just an unfair 8 sided die.

  • @davidbeyer7848
    @davidbeyer7848 4 роки тому

    This video is insightful and delightful and I feel smarter having watched it.

  • @AmishWaffle88
    @AmishWaffle88 7 років тому

    never thought i would be this engaged in a video about dice.

  • @TheSLK66
    @TheSLK66 7 років тому +21

    A fair dice may exist, but a fair throw does not. You could make it very close to a fair throw, but conceptually it's impossible I think.

    • @gergo6595
      @gergo6595 3 роки тому +4

      A fair throw is where you didn't intentionally manipulate the chances. The matter of the dice throwing to get a result from a fix pool that you didn't know before the throw.
      But, it's needed to make it "unfair" to make it possible to determine a value. In a theoretically perfect world a theoretically "perfect" throw would cause the dice infinitely rolling without stopping, because that perfect you throwed. If not, and we assume that the dice is not mathematically perfect object, it would stand on an edge, like a coin. Throw a coin. Heads or tails, but you throwed so perfectly it didn't lean to either side.

  • @Skyfighter64
    @Skyfighter64 5 років тому +4

    The long story short is that as long as the individual panels of the polyhedrons are made of "equilateral" shapes (All sides AND angles are the same) then the die should be fair in terms of symmetry.

  • @valor36az
    @valor36az 4 роки тому

    What a fantastic abstraction

  • @brokenwave6125
    @brokenwave6125 7 років тому +1

    Spheres are fair too. Infinite sides. Equally chance on any side facing up. Also, any cylinder based dice that you roll are fair.

    • @chaotickreg7024
      @chaotickreg7024 2 роки тому

      Give the sphere dice (a d^3 if you will) a UV texture or color ramp, that way you can extract an X and Y dice value out of every roll.

  • @CoolGuy55000
    @CoolGuy55000 7 років тому +29

    This is how Cliff Stoll would look and act like if he wasn't constantly high

  • @JonCombo
    @JonCombo 5 років тому +3

    0:08 "Tetrahedron" That ones got 8 faces. I had a dice with rounded edges, and it managed to stop on an edge. Only once though.

  • @StUCaboose
    @StUCaboose 2 роки тому +2

    As an RPG dice goblin, words cannot express how utterly stressed out 2:30 made me

  • @oldmannaynay
    @oldmannaynay 2 роки тому +1

    What about a case for the three sided die... you can see three sided dice shapes within the old pieces for risk which symbolized 10 men. The 1 man pieces were squares, and the 10 man pieces aka cannons were the shape of what seemed a fair three sided dice.

  • @derentius
    @derentius 5 років тому +9

    I have a D120 I use for D&D random tables, I wonder if that's considered fair

    • @B...-B906
      @B...-B906 5 років тому +2

      i dont think so. do you use the official PHB? cuz if you do there are only d100 random tables and to trow a fair d100 just use two d10.

    • @JustNatax3
      @JustNatax3 5 років тому

      Well you could determine a fair number in 1-120 with 2d10, 1d20 and 1d4.
      Roll the d4:
      at [1,2,3] it's up to 1-100
      at [4] its 101-120
      In case of [1,2,3] simply roll 2d10 to get the digits for a d100
      _or_
      In case of [4] just roll the d20 for your 101-120

    • @eddarby469
      @eddarby469 2 роки тому

      Is there a beholder listed on the table? ... that's not fair!

  • @jeshudastidar
    @jeshudastidar 7 років тому +48

    Have an awesome day everyone! :)

  • @skaven969
    @skaven969 5 років тому

    Excellent video

  • @Nanninone
    @Nanninone 7 років тому

    Thanks for the video!

  • @JiyakuBuraku
    @JiyakuBuraku 7 років тому +22

    Rohan is really suspicious of dice now

    • @lilysdong1457
      @lilysdong1457 5 років тому +1

      Goddamit, is this a jojo reference?

    • @filipsantek1336
      @filipsantek1336 5 років тому +2

      @@lilysdong1457 xD yes, yes it is, and I hate how it got even here

  • @DrIcchan
    @DrIcchan 7 років тому +10

    Gamescience dice! They're the best.

    • @evosevenpm7846
      @evosevenpm7846 7 років тому

      I thought i recognized those immediately, shame I still don't own a pair.

    • @jubuttib
      @jubuttib 5 років тому

      First thought that popped to mind when the video started. =)

  • @jfridy
    @jfridy 4 роки тому

    Fun bit! The dice they are tossing in the examples, the ones with no paint in the numbers and very sharp edges? Those are from Gamescience, a company that prides itself on making them that way because the rounding of the edges can cause flaws with their balance and make them less random.

  • @lucabozza1750
    @lucabozza1750 4 роки тому

    The gamescience dice made the video so much better

  • @StefanReich
    @StefanReich 6 років тому +6

    The casino dice are pretty

    • @elemenopi9239
      @elemenopi9239 5 років тому +1

      I want some.
      Maybe I’ll get some on amazon tomorrow.

  • @13thBear
    @13thBear 5 років тому +5

    If you worry about the fairness of dice, you are either a math professor or a munchkin.

    • @Guru_1092
      @Guru_1092 5 років тому +4

      Or a D&D nerd.

  • @gregoryfenn1462
    @gregoryfenn1462 5 років тому +1

    There's a clever trick to ensure you are flipping a fair coin (the logic can be generalised to dice).
    The idea is that you start with a H/T coin with roughly 50-50 ratio for landing: and by 'roughly', I mean that 0.01

  • @overlordinquisitor6565
    @overlordinquisitor6565 4 роки тому +1

    Everyone: Goes nuts because of not-cube dice.
    Dungeons and Dragons players: First time?

  • @Johan-st4rv
    @Johan-st4rv 7 років тому +8

    How do you roll a die 3500000 times?

    • @ffggddss
      @ffggddss 6 років тому +7

      You build a machine to do it, with maybe 20 or 50 dice being tossed at a time, incorporating a camera to record them after each toss, and recognition software to count each outcome from each die, at each toss.
      At the beginning of Part 2 he shows how a student did this as a project; he used 12 dice at a time.
      Or you vedge out with dice while watching TV for 15 years.

    • @amanitamuscaria6865
      @amanitamuscaria6865 6 років тому

      how long have you been on youtube

    • @biggawinnacrapsa3870
      @biggawinnacrapsa3870 5 років тому +11

      You roll it once, then you wait until it comes to rest, then you pick it up and do it again. Do that over and over until you reach the number you are after. I hope this helps.

    • @tubevolts
      @tubevolts 5 років тому

      Your watch as much content as a typical 12-year-old and spend that time rolling, rolling, rolling.

    • @y.z.6517
      @y.z.6517 5 років тому

      Rolling a dice every 3 seconds. No resting. No sleeping. That's about a year.

  • @bobsaggat
    @bobsaggat 7 років тому +20

    old news to every dungeons and dragons player lol

  • @mertonhirsch4734
    @mertonhirsch4734 7 років тому

    you can create fair dice that have symmetrical edges, vertices and sides IF you allow the faces to have even a tiny amount of curvature. For example a toblerone that doesn't have flat ends, but points.

  • @Elkatook666
    @Elkatook666 3 роки тому

    to extrapolate the theory, BLOWING on the dice for luck, could influence the outcome of the dice roll !
    one side of the die would be warmer than the other, influencing the dynamics of the roll ... great video

  • @niteexplorer9934
    @niteexplorer9934 7 років тому +7

    SO HOW CAN I WIN A THE CASINO

    • @nullpoint3346
      @nullpoint3346 5 років тому +14

      Don't play.

    • @Xormac2
      @Xormac2 5 років тому +4

      own a casino

    • @nullpoint3346
      @nullpoint3346 5 років тому +2

      @@Xormac2
      That also works.

    • @biggawinnacrapsa3870
      @biggawinnacrapsa3870 5 років тому

      You can start by proofreading your comments before posting, so that you don't come off sounding like an ignorant moron. Morons don't fare too well in casinos. Next, go to videos by 'Dangerous Arm Craps' and watch and listen. Then put it all, everything you've got, across the numbers as soon as you get the dice and don't work them on the Come Out roll. Hit 4 numbers and pull the bets down. Send what you came with home and play only with the profit. You're welcome.

    • @juancgonzalez2102
      @juancgonzalez2102 5 років тому

      The best way to win the game is to not play

  • @JustVaza
    @JustVaza 7 років тому +4

    why am I still watching this at 1 am?

  • @raiserofchickens
    @raiserofchickens 3 роки тому

    I bought a set of 'Rogue' dice where the d6 were in a poison bottle design. I quickly discovered that I could better control the outcome by how I released them from my hands when rolling.

    • @ixchel3330
      @ixchel3330 2 роки тому +1

      That's the most rouge thing i can think of.

  • @glowstonelovepad9294
    @glowstonelovepad9294 4 роки тому

    I know about octahedrons from the Octahedron of Transcendence (Timotainment)

  • @Ghork1
    @Ghork1 7 років тому +5

    It really bugs me that his 4 sided die have the corners shaved off !

    • @hyrekandragon2665
      @hyrekandragon2665 7 років тому +1

      Have you ever tired rolling a tetrahedron. The corners are very sharp abd make jt hard to pick up. Shavjng them off makings the die more weildy.

    • @Ghork1
      @Ghork1 7 років тому

      lots of time i'm an avid pen and paper player, playing pathfinder mostly now

    • @rebeltinaschannel6240
      @rebeltinaschannel6240 6 років тому

      That's to keep it from hurting when you step on it. Dice roll off the table more often than you think.

  • @Zaurthur
    @Zaurthur 7 років тому +9

    only five in the 3rd dimension!

    • @blue_tetris
      @blue_tetris 7 років тому

      I'm interested in what types of polychoron dice would be fair, assuming a 4-dimensional space.

    • @Zaurthur
      @Zaurthur 7 років тому +1

      The same ones. and the hyper diamond.

    • @robo3007
      @robo3007 7 років тому +1

      There's two more (the triangular and pentagonal bipyramid) plus several other if you allow using non-regular faces.

    • @nullpoint3346
      @nullpoint3346 5 років тому

      @@robo3007
      Regulars only, sorry.

    • @connorking8503
      @connorking8503 5 років тому

      There's only three in 4d.
      One, Infinity, five, three, three, three...

  • @Tysto
    @Tysto Рік тому +1

    I want a d1: a d6 labeled 0,0,0,1,1,&1. Roll it with another, then a d4 becomes a d5; a d6 becomes a d7; etc., all fair rolls.

  • @leungclj
    @leungclj 7 років тому +1

    dude, i will allow this guy to go on forever. For once, i feel like i understood the whole video.

  • @whoeveriam0iam14222
    @whoeveriam0iam14222 7 років тому +8

    it looks weird that his eyes seem constantly closed

    • @S1nwar
      @S1nwar 7 років тому

      old people HAHAHA

    • @-morrow
      @-morrow 7 років тому +7

      he's trying to image the geometrical shapes he's talking about, makes stuff easier for some people ;)

    • @NormalGayBro
      @NormalGayBro 6 років тому +1

      Just like Brock.

  • @KnakuanaRka
    @KnakuanaRka 7 років тому +4

    At the start, those 5 shapes would be called Platonian solids, technically speaking.

    • @ffggddss
      @ffggddss 6 років тому +1

      Yes, but it's, "Platonic."

    • @KnakuanaRka
      @KnakuanaRka 5 років тому

      ffggddss Close enough.

  • @Science__Politics
    @Science__Politics 2 роки тому

    I just thought of a way of finding the "most" fair dice of any number. You must start with a perfect sphere and cut it the minimal number of times to have the desired number of sides, and so that each side is equal in shape & size, whilst retaining as much volume of the original sphere as possible.

  • @markmandel6487
    @markmandel6487 5 років тому

    For gaming, if not geometry, you can have fair dice of ANY value. Make them in the shape of a prism with that many sides, and sharpen the ends to points or round them off, so the die won't land on an end and stop there. To help you visualize it, a regular everyday pencil, if not cylindrical, is a six-sided prism. Sharpen both ends and you've got a prismatic d6. And obviously these can be made with ANY number of sides greater than 2.

  • @wrecksvid
    @wrecksvid 5 років тому +15

    D2 = a coin

  • @LonkinPork
    @LonkinPork 6 років тому +7

    Any nerd could have told you what those original five dice are:
    D4, D6, D8, D12, and D20

  • @devidotnova
    @devidotnova 5 років тому

    I have a d24 and a d60 and a d30 along with the standard polyhedral dice

  • @spiderdude2099
    @spiderdude2099 5 років тому

    Fun fact: when you flip a coin there is actually a greater chance that you will get a streak of 9 heads or nine tails in a row than there will be that you never encounter that length of streak. In fact one professor asked students to flip coins and record the results. The number of flips was pretty large, around 300 and some students got lazy and made up the results. However the professor could tell which data sets were real and which were made up by looking at if the data contained streaks of 7 or more. The fake results that students made tended to alternate frequently and not include very many streaks of heads or tails in a row.