Diebold safecracking

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  • Опубліковано 13 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 149

  • @titopuente8222
    @titopuente8222 11 років тому +12

    A drill rig normally does nothing to keep the bit straight once it contacts a ball bearing in the hard plate. The bit itself deflects; therefore, how rigid/ secure the drill motor is makes no difference. If you must go through the plate, and you must go through a ball bearing, here is the trick: wooden dowel rod. Drill down to the bearing then smash a wooden rod in so the fibers squeeze around the ball and prevent it from spinning. Then, use a carbide burr, not twist bit, to grind through it.

  • @Turndup13
    @Turndup13 11 років тому +8

    Excellent work Sir! Very professional job! Your skill and dedication are inspirational to me as a beginner locksmith. I hope to be that way one day. Thx for sharing.

  • @tcpnetworks
    @tcpnetworks 11 років тому +3

    Nice job. I like seeing a REAL PROFESSIONAL go through an unlocking proceedure like this.
    It takes proper skill to defeat these locks...

  • @nick4831
    @nick4831 11 років тому +6

    That is no 33E,looks more like a 3715 to me. I am curios as to why you drilled to spike, as opposed to drilling off the swing bolt blocking pin. Seems like adding an extra unnecessary step into the job. You have an excellent scope collection, quite impressed.

  • @titopuente8222
    @titopuente8222 11 років тому +2

    Look up Strong Arm bits. I could be mistaken, but I think he is using a Strong Arm brand lever rig on his drill motor. If not, then it is basically the same thing.
    The shape of the carbide tip is a factor; however, the strength of the tips, thickness, and how they are brazed to the shank all need consideration. Additionally, the best method for defeating a ball bearing is to stop its spinning in the plate with a wood dowel rod then grind through with a long solid carbide burr.

  • @titopuente8222
    @titopuente8222 11 років тому +1

    Door is repaired. There are a variety of repairs and some of them actually make that drill point even harder to go through after the repair than before. Lock body inside the safe door will need to be replaced.

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому +4

    Door itself, There are many laid out in a egg crate pattern to protect the sweet spots. Very effective in stopping drill attacks as your bit wedges itself in between the bearings and then snaps off flush or below door surface.

  • @titopuente8222
    @titopuente8222 11 років тому +9

    And yes, the method used in this video is definitely that of a well trained/ experienced professional safe technician.

  • @Jacksonjames4
    @Jacksonjames4 9 років тому +49

    Man, that's some serious precision there. Awesome job.

  • @titopuente8222
    @titopuente8222 11 років тому +2

    Or you could go balls to the wall and use a thermal lance. You can build one for less than $100 that fits in a backpack with a battery and small tank of oxygen. The rods are available at welding stores. Very fun to play with for burning holes in metals. Paradoxically, wood gives them fits; it suppresses the exothermic reaction.

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  13 років тому +2

    @zbnmt5 Just eyeballed it, aimed for the wires to spike open. old locks are great for finding drill points!

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому

    Around $500-$700 if in Florida near me and its a lost combo and not a burglarized or damaged safe. New York, Chicago is much more as they can charge double or triple and do!

  • @titopuente8222
    @titopuente8222 11 років тому +1

    Because the door bolts are still pushed into the door frame of the safe. The hinges only allow the door to swing, they have nothing to do with keeping the door locked.

  • @acrinsd
    @acrinsd 11 років тому

    The two wires from the keypad are only to send information about what number is pressed, not the unlock signal. The unlock signal is is generated internally.

  • @cyberpunk004
    @cyberpunk004 9 років тому +3

    generally to plug the drilled hole a couple ball bearings are pushed into the hole and depending on the spot the hole is, sometimes even a larger one is pushed in the back,esp right behind the lockset(its held in place BY the lockset) and hammered in place. Good luck drilling that spot easily again.

  • @Anthraxnz64
    @Anthraxnz64 11 років тому +5

    nice video.
    Where was that ball bearing located, in the lock casing or in the door itself?

  • @eformance
    @eformance 11 років тому +1

    Why don't you use carbide tipped drill bits for this? There is a set of bits called "bad dog bits" that are made like masonry bits, but the carbide is sharpened to an edge. These work really really well on hard metals. I keep them around just for hard tasks like that. You can also take a run of the mill masonry bit and use a drill doctor to put a sharp edge on it. The drill doctor works well for sharpening those and regular carbon and HSS bits.

  • @RoadTripMan4U
    @RoadTripMan4U 11 років тому

    Your the first guy i have seen on youtube to tackle a digital lock, keep posting them!!

  • @slthbob
    @slthbob 11 років тому

    if I am correct those were carbide tipped drill bits...diebold uses various styles of carbide impregnated steel (did you notice the ball bearing?) to make drill bits slip and slide off target... I expected to see a jig being used to insure the drill stayed true (my experience is with military grade diebold safes though)

  • @mae951
    @mae951 11 років тому +1

    Placement of that hole is important, right? That's a clever set-up that you have to put plenty of feed pressure on the drill bit. i wonder how well a concrete drill bit (but without hammering) would work: the tips are carbide. Would they hold an edge longer? Would the geometry work well enough? Are you using carbide drill bits now? you were swapping them out frequently. Would coolant/lubricant help? Why the air drill, wouldn't a 3/8" electric pistol type drill work well enough? Great video!!

  • @eman3082000
    @eman3082000 11 років тому +1

    Dude u are a sniper! Perfect drill placement! Made it look easy.

  • @slthbob
    @slthbob 11 років тому +1

    Ball bearing should have been inside the steel plate, it has a different hardness than the rest of the steel he is cutting through. Used to destroy drill bits and divert the drill path to hinder the pinpoint accuracy needed to do what he did.

  • @vorkev1
    @vorkev1 11 років тому

    every single manufactor of safes since the late 70s hase bilt in a way to open thare safe without the code most of the time you can get this info from dealers who dealers for that safes companey or just buy the right books that show you how also if you do enuff research on safes and even call the manufactor you can sometimes get the backdoor from them or a schimatic on the safe from them and find the way that use. in this safe it a matter of bendint a peaces of wire at certin points

  • @waynewinton
    @waynewinton 11 років тому +2

    Also how did you repair the welded in hard plate? and ball bearing's? or did you? taper pins and epoxyed in ball bearings are not considered a secure repair at least not to the insurance company's.

  • @snowflakemelter1172
    @snowflakemelter1172 11 років тому +20

    if you use drilling paste, ie lubricant your drills will last 2 or 3 times longer

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  10 років тому +13

      Lubricant only helps on the first 1/2 inch or so in the mild steel but when you reach the ball bearings the tip of your bit snaps right off and usually welds itself in the hole that you now have to get out before you can continue drilling. Very effective barrier. Thanks

  • @Ts-gu8qc
    @Ts-gu8qc 10 років тому +3

    Any safe can be cracked my friend honestly , people have tried for over two hundred years to make uncrackerble safe , we will always find a way to get them open in a pro manor .

  • @Metalhead-4life
    @Metalhead-4life 10 років тому +1

    Im still trying to figure out how that relocker works exactly, It looked as if it had been set off, or am I wrong?

  • @aaronpierce4224
    @aaronpierce4224 10 років тому +5

    Nice repair. wish mine looked that clean. Can you do some videos on repairs?

  • @rubicontraveler4145
    @rubicontraveler4145 11 років тому +2

    Very impressive, nice job. How did you cut the wires? with the drill bit?

  • @PaMS1995
    @PaMS1995 10 років тому +18

    don't know shit about lockpicking but this was a great watch

  • @Kowan57
    @Kowan57 10 років тому +6

    That hardened plate sure ate those drill bits.

  • @waynewinton
    @waynewinton 11 років тому +2

    I must ask as well why not drill for the locking pin that will relise the latch? I too have gotten into a Diebold safe much like the one you show and dew to the fact that they flat out will not talk to any one not emplyed by them your using old locks to find drill points is the same method I use. I had to drill one out beacuse the lock was broken though so the cellonide trick would not work in this case.

  • @derekmorones2637
    @derekmorones2637 10 років тому

    Thank you for the video, I ask does the box have a swinging bolt? or is it a stiff bolt that swings when unlocked? If it swings can you just drill for the bolt instead of the box? It would be a much easyer opening to reach in and push the bolt over . Lockman!

    • @JohnGriner
      @JohnGriner 10 років тому

      im in the same industry (bank service) i think you're talking about punching the bolt. This is normally what i do, when doing a cash locker, or coin vault, but generally when doing something like the vault he has you don't want to take a chance of firing the relockers.

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  10 років тому +1

      Yes it does and yes you could but I wanted to reuse the lock again so this was less damaging to the lock.

  • @pampsuisselosangeles7145
    @pampsuisselosangeles7145 10 років тому +1

    Ok now I'm freaking out. I just bought a Liberty Lincoln 25 safe, w/ a group 2 mechanical lock. How long would it take you to get into my safe?

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому +1

    30-40 min. and you want to know the cost of safe? Or spike box tool?

  • @thePussysniffer
    @thePussysniffer 11 років тому +1

    this was so cool... i would wanna see more. thank you very much.

  • @titopuente8222
    @titopuente8222 11 років тому +4

    Yep, people wouldn't believe the homework and experience needed to do a job like this cleanly and professionally.

  • @cichlid43
    @cichlid43 11 років тому

    So is the electronic locking setup an easier job then one with dial?

  • @bensons999
    @bensons999 11 років тому

    Great video! Thanks, really enjoyed watching you work.

  • @nereus2953
    @nereus2953 10 років тому +1

    Excelente work, what kind of drill do yo used and how many?

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  10 років тому +4

      Strong Arm bits are my first choice, you never know how many you will need. One hole could use 10 but if you move over an inch and drill another it might take only one. It's pot luck. I always carry a bag full on the job.

    • @nereus2953
      @nereus2953 10 років тому

      Gracias por la informacion

    • @Rover620TiVitesse
      @Rover620TiVitesse 10 років тому

      LockPicksPlusdotCom Have you tried 5% cobalt drills?

  • @davidhume2842
    @davidhume2842 9 років тому +2

    Were you not able to just drill through the spindle hole into the lock case to access the solenoid wires? I ask, because I am about to purchase a used 271-30 Cashguard and will also have to spike it.

    • @dlevi67
      @dlevi67 9 років тому +5

      David Hume the spindle hole in the safe is not in the right place to access the wires... unsurprisingly.

  • @csw4ak
    @csw4ak 9 років тому +2

    Sounds like this safe was returned to service. What do you do to compensate for the drill hole? New door? A patch job of some sort?

  • @shayneyasinski
    @shayneyasinski 11 років тому

    years ago we had an old combination type safe in the corner locked but the door open!! I hauled it out and removed the door cover and just watched the lock work to get the combo.
    are these old safes easy to get into when locked ? any safe out there that can not be open?
    what you did in this vid shows that you have the inner workings mapped out pretty good !
    Respect!

  • @DavidLDFL
    @DavidLDFL 10 років тому +19

    seems like it takes a while and looks like you ran through a few drill bits. very nicely done though.

  • @gdaychina
    @gdaychina 11 років тому

    Hi got same system on safe purchased without key would same opening method be required for all these types of safes

  • @cichlid43
    @cichlid43 11 років тому

    how thick is the steel of the door?

  • @jayketterman2
    @jayketterman2 10 років тому +1

    What is your opinion on these cashgards? I own one that's Massive

  • @csplmr
    @csplmr 11 років тому

    Fantastic video. I am a safe collector and fanatic. I mostly like antique floor safes.
    Anyway, enjoyed the video, and was in awe of your skills. Excellent repair, but would that drill hole always be a weak spot?

    • @cinderr18
      @cinderr18 11 років тому

      I doubt it would remain a weak spot. It can be easily concealed and I`m sure if burgalers attempt to open the safe, they wont spend an hour trying to find a concealed square inch hole in the safe

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  10 років тому +11

      Thanks for the kind words. Yes the hole will always be easier to drill trough then the ball bearings so to combat this I moved the solenoid to another location in the lock case so if you did find my hole and re drilled it it would be useless as you would just hit air.

  • @diazaman420
    @diazaman420 11 років тому

    Just wondering why you couldn't "hot wire" the safe using the already exposed wires? I imagine theres a good reason...but I can't figure it out? I was happy to see you do the by-pass though...cuz at 1st I thought you were attacking the actual mechanics and not the electronics....I had always wondered if these digital safes had the same old keyway by-pass that you see on the real cheap safes!

  • @titopuente8222
    @titopuente8222 11 років тому +2

    Even if you were there in person to watch, you still would not know how to do it yourself. Just controlling that lever rig on the drill motor and not snapping bits in the deep hole are an acquired skill. Your comment is like watching a video of heart surgery on You Tube then saying, "Great, now I can skip medical school and residency."

  • @FordyHunt
    @FordyHunt 10 років тому +1

    What function does the bb have?

    • @Keifsanderson
      @Keifsanderson 10 років тому +6

      Ball bearings are hardened steel and therefore very hard to drill. I don't work in this industry, by my higher-security dead bolts came with ball bearings to place under the mounting bolts, to make drilling from the exterior more difficult. I'd assume they play a similar role here.

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  9 років тому +3

      keifsanderson 100 percent correct.

  • @andrewgarcia4346
    @andrewgarcia4346 10 років тому

    would it have been faster if you hammered out the hinge?

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  10 років тому +4

      No cutting or removing the hinge doesn't work on real burglary rated safes. There are locking bolts all the way around the door.

    • @andrewgarcia4346
      @andrewgarcia4346 10 років тому +1

      yea but with those thin walls, you could us a breaching tool and a sledge hammer to break the connection. i mean once you break two pins you can twist the entire door out. Or couldn't you break the handle off and use brute force to twist open the locking mechanism.

    • @RaskVousSalue
      @RaskVousSalue 10 років тому

      LockPicksPlusdotCom Cutting the hinge doesn't work, but wouldn't using a crowbar on the door work? Or maybe you were trying not to destroy the safe?

  • @macklu7571
    @macklu7571 10 років тому +1

    Did it take you more than 15 minutes? I always wonder if the UL rating was accurate for professionals using hand tools.

    • @JohnGriner
      @JohnGriner 10 років тому +1

      i have no connection to this video, but the tl-15 rating is 15 mins of working time. meaning your running the drill and pushing the drill in it takes 15 mins. But the rating does not count the down time. Time spent changing bits, resting, reposition the drill, ect. If I had to guess it took him at least a couple of hours.

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  10 років тому +3

      Yes it takes longer in most cases.

  • @TowerJimmy
    @TowerJimmy 10 років тому

    very clever way to push the drill

  • @circusboy90210
    @circusboy90210 11 років тому

    what about oiling the bit?

  • @ASAPLocksmith
    @ASAPLocksmith 10 років тому

    nicely done, I get a cramp in my stomache when I see a hard plate that elaborate. What brand of bits do you like? I'm going through 4 bits just to punch a basic 3/8 hardplate.

    • @ASAPLocksmith
      @ASAPLocksmith 10 років тому

      No I'm using carbide tip but I recently switched to a mounted/magnetic drill method and stopped using the lever rig and I'm conserving bits a lot better.

  • @theDIGITALperception
    @theDIGITALperception 11 років тому +1

    now that is some serious skill!!! Fantastic video, thanks!

  • @vorkev1
    @vorkev1 9 років тому +2

    great job buy the way even tho it was old tech

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому +1

    Ok thanks.

  • @mikerivers4141
    @mikerivers4141 11 років тому +3

    WHY IS THIS SO COOL?

  • @Fermia4you
    @Fermia4you 11 років тому +1

    chain give more stability its like when you hunting and using the wepon sling to stable your aim:D

    • @stretchmyjerky
      @stretchmyjerky 10 років тому +4

      no, the chain give you more leverage added with the metal bar to push the drill harder to cause more friction to get through faster.. but it also mean going through MANY more drill bits....

  • @eric808fh
    @eric808fh 10 років тому +1

    i've never thought of charging the solenoid!!!! are you just sending 9v to it???

  • @jakezoroni6161
    @jakezoroni6161 9 років тому +2

    You shouldn't let these secrets out... But I'm still so damn glad that you did xD
    I'm actually looking into becoming a locksmith, but I'm still missing all the experience

    • @Jacksonjames4
      @Jacksonjames4 9 років тому +4

      Well once you take your foley belsaw online course, and perhaps become a "locksmith" , then you'll understand they didn't show you much on doing anything besides drilling a hole. Good luck doing what they did.

    • @brazeiar9672
      @brazeiar9672 9 років тому +6

      Jakezoroni Criminals will always get access to the info but it doesn't matter, since a criminal is unlikely to sit around for half an hour with a drill trying to get in.

  • @gwrash
    @gwrash 11 років тому

    So why is there a drill hole at the spindle location?, you did not run a drill into the safe at that location in this video? I was wondering why you left the keypad connected? why of earth was a drilled lock body reinstalled on this safe? hummm something is very wrong with this video!!!

  • @Ts-gu8qc
    @Ts-gu8qc 10 років тому +1

    Would of went over the top my self no ball bearings and saved time and d bits , granted would of ment new lock body but hay how what do I know , ps clean spike though well done.

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  13 років тому +1

    Just eyeballed it, aimed for the wires to spike.

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому +4

    Well then let's so you go do it because you learned so much from this video. Lol

  • @vorkev1
    @vorkev1 11 років тому

    how abought i have ben into picking locks and cracking safes for over 10 years

  • @1234567abood
    @1234567abood 10 років тому

    i forgot my combination and would like to open it without drilling or defacing, somebody answer me please.

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  10 років тому +1

      Call a safe tech or take it to someone's lock shop to open it for you.

  • @cybraxcyberspace
    @cybraxcyberspace 11 років тому

    Fantastic skill, would have been nicer, if you explained some more detail, yes i guess a locksmith or safecracker must remain his trade secret but some more info could have and would have been informative and cool, also i was quite interested on the drilling time which was fast forwarded and never specified.
    Otherwise amazing

    • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
      @LockPicksPlusdotCom  10 років тому +1

      I agree with you but I'm walking a fine line trying to educate the public and not would be thieves. Every time I post a new safe video my piers give me a bunch of crap over it. So what's one to do? You can't please everyone.

  • @highwatertech1965
    @highwatertech1965 10 років тому +4

    Could have been done a whole hell of a lot quicker with precisely placed Thermite charges. And a good kick.

    • @h3Xh3Xh3X
      @h3Xh3Xh3X 10 років тому +1

      Wouldn't work for a safe filled with documents or cash...

    • @highwatertech1965
      @highwatertech1965 10 років тому +1

      Lennart Nilsen A short stroke Plasma Cutter may work if you don't want to damage the documents

    • @RichardsWorld
      @RichardsWorld 10 років тому +3

      I think he wanted to be able to repair the safe so could be used again. He didn't want to obliterate it.
      oh.. and I just saw at the end, he did fill the whole and fixed the safe.

    • @highwatertech1965
      @highwatertech1965 9 років тому +2

      ***** I was refering to a tool that creates a plasma arc short enough to go through the metal without damaging the contents inside.

  • @benknarr
    @benknarr 9 років тому +5

    i hope u charged a pretty penny to open that up

  • @markflack5234
    @markflack5234 9 років тому +2

    Hundred dollars worth of bits and a new lock assembly $200 what a deal

  • @Eveleneve
    @Eveleneve 10 років тому +1

    estou no brasil. eu abro cofre aqui minha profissão.
    eu quero compar este equipamento como eu faço?
    obrigado!!!!

  • @billmars6436
    @billmars6436 11 років тому

    That would destroy the safe, then you still couldn't move the door because of the 3 steel bolts, there would be no give to move to the right. This took little skill, but was effective, a good locksmith always takes the easiest possible option.

  • @9f73x8mgqg2v755k
    @9f73x8mgqg2v755k 11 років тому

    Real master.

  • @edemere
    @edemere 11 років тому +2

    Skills!

  • @x9x9x9x9x9
    @x9x9x9x9x9 11 років тому

    What does the chain do?

  • @florinpopa5807
    @florinpopa5807 11 років тому

    dats kind of is old scholl cause all the new ones have all explosions and if u go drill it like this it like to drill an atomic bomb :P

  • @vorkev1
    @vorkev1 12 років тому

    wow can tell he is not a professional locksmith or he wold no thare is a few way of opening this lock without damageing the lock or safe

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому +2

    Lol, see you do it.

  • @2H2K
    @2H2K 10 років тому

    Clever

  • @ktimo100
    @ktimo100 11 років тому

    5:19 lol
    keep it together!

  • @nadyasuleman2859
    @nadyasuleman2859 10 років тому

    he cheated but he left that part out.....

  • @AirsoftNLD
    @AirsoftNLD 11 років тому +1

    Just some c4 xD

  • @tracyendicott1299
    @tracyendicott1299 10 років тому

    Help I have lost the keys to my safe!!

  • @cooldudell1
    @cooldudell1 11 років тому

    u jelly?

  • @toddsherman
    @toddsherman 11 років тому +1

    I've enjoyed watching your videos. Thanks for making them. However, reading your interactions with commenters is horrible. Especially when you are using bigoted slurs. Have you considered restricting comments? It'd probably extend your life a few years.

  • @sofijadiebold3257
    @sofijadiebold3257 11 років тому +1

    Haha that's my last name!

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому +3

    Wow! Are you for real? You are my HERO! 10 long years picking your nose Lol. You fail to impress me because I have been opening safes for 33 years so theres not much your pea brain can tell me about them. Sorry to bitch slap you off your high horse.

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому +1

    Lol you watch to much Tv!

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому

    "I mean in real life" shit spell corrector!

  • @vorkev1
    @vorkev1 11 років тому

    i will tell you one thing i can open it in under i minit useing a basic programming guide use to find the master code of safes made buy this companey and will let you no that if you show proof of haveing the safe with you and that you are a certified locksmith with one of thare companeys or that you are a aproved seller for them then thay will give you this manual

  • @RobMitshi
    @RobMitshi 10 років тому

    Seems this guy never heard of hydrolics, me thinks it would pop right open.
    Also, get better drills, when you got those, make em even better.
    Use propper cutting and cooling fluid. Buy a Plasmacutter? ooh and best way to do it, ask any 316L metalworker/welder with a clue ;)

  • @LockPicksPlusdotCom
    @LockPicksPlusdotCom  11 років тому +1

    Dude you are showing your ignorance now. Your statement is pure bullshit and you have no idea what you are talking about. For one this is a Diebold safe made by Diebold and retrofitted with a Lagard 33E digital lock after the fact. So tell me what info Diebold will give you about another manufactures lock? this lock has no back door or secret number that will open the lock. It is impossible to open this lock without drilling into it if you don't have the proper combination, period.

  • @joebaldwin1168
    @joebaldwin1168 9 років тому +1

    could have got in twice as fast with a hammer and chisel the safe is ruined once its drilled anyway.

  • @dukeman7595
    @dukeman7595 10 років тому +3

    Why would you show the frigging crooks this information ? There goes my idea of buying a digital looking safe out the widow.

    • @HaydenHatTrick
      @HaydenHatTrick 9 років тому

      Just a hint... you cant afford a secure safe lock. Instead you have to assume that the crook does not know the exact model of your safe and have its datasheets in advance, with the correct tools.

    • @dukeman7595
      @dukeman7595 9 років тому

      HaydenHatTrick Stick to the hat trick

    • @Jacksonjames4
      @Jacksonjames4 9 років тому +7

      Oh no!! And they showed the combination to the safe at the end! I can't believe they're revealing so much info ( sarcasm for the original tard)