Great effort, Trevor! Failures are how we learn. I work on maintaining/repairing our three CNC routers at work. They are all from the 2000's. These things are fiddly and need lots of attention. Lots of experimentation, risk taking and failures but I learn something new every day. Keep up the great content my friend!
Nice try, I enjoyed watching the video. I’m glad you showed it even though it didn't work out. I do have a few suggestions for the next time you try this. 1. Put the tape "under" the foil to protect the surrounding devices. The tape you used looks like the high temp kind, but it by itself doesn't keep from heating the devices under it. That's what the foil is for. Two sided tape works well for this. 2. A heat plate would be good to have but is not necessary. What you did to heat the PCB before placing the chip should be good enough. 3. Don’t move the chip once you start heating it. You risk smearing the balls and shorting some pins. 4. Instead use temperature indicating paint. Get the paint that indicates a little above the melting point for the balls or the solder that you use. Use this to paint the top of the chip and when it changes color you know the balls are up to the correct temperature and melted. There is no guessing.
just saw one of these (609) for sale on FB for £20/$25, thought wow what a bargain, bet its a psu/fuse issue..... got it home, 9 screws and top off, saw fuses buried under other boards so 40 more (yes) screws later I have the back off to lift the boards for testing fuses, all work ok so thats when i decide to google around for a service manual and see all these hits for 'no sound' on forums and youtube... wished i'd done a search first lol. I'm sure i read on a forum new chips are blank, and also that newer versions wont work so if last digits are 300 a 400 wont do, but a xxxB300 is best replaced with a xxxD300, what i have learned from the last hour of reading up on these is that they virtually impossible to fix well, if at all. I'm looking at powering up the amp stage direct, and just using it as a 5.1 channel dumb power stage running from a usb sound card. or a boat anchor, weight for a gazebo, something within its capabilities
Thanks for all the info. No I never considered flashing, I'm a newbie at this type of repair and did it mostly to see what's possible. So much to learn
Trevor, it looked like you did everything right, except flood the chip with flux before soldering. By the time you preheated the board the little bit of the flux you applied was gone. When you add enough flux the flux on top may evaporate, but there will always be a puddle bubbling around the edges that can be sucked underneath as need be. I not a pro, but I have seen the pros use a puddle of flux and I have failed until I started to do the same. Next time if you add a glob of flux on the chip and do everything the same, I bet it will work and settle in place considerable faster. Unless the chip is cooked, obviously. Edit: I went back and watched again and I noticed that you moved the chip considerably two times when the solder has started to melt, so you may have bridged a few balls. At the end where you poked it a tiny bit and it sprung back is about as far as you want to move it. Unfortunately, even though it seemed be jumping back into place, one or more pads may have been bridged already. You are a smart guy and meticulous. It won't take you long to figure it out.
Sorry, but anyone could see it wasn't positioned correctly, and then he moved the chip after he'd already applied more than enough heat to do the job. Shoddy work.
@@gordthor5351 I'm pretty much a newbie to reballing too... but I know not to touch/move a chip once you've been applying heat for ten seconds... and I was sincerely willing you all the way to get it right e.g. you were initially taking the job at the right speed, with patience, cleaning up the board nicely etc... but then it's like you become a man possessed, not even checking the alignment of the four corners before applying the heat (which should come from directly above, not wafting it everywhere!) All that hard effort down the pan, man! I felt gutted for you when you went to power on, but I knew the moment you moved that DSP chip that it was game over. Keep at it!
These Onkyos are the absolute worst!! I repaired my old one only to have it fail again. I ended up buying a used Marantz AVR and was amazed at the better quality in sound. Toss that junk!
Awesome attempt and patience. Can't fix everything but terrific attempt for being new to this whole mysterious BGA repair process. I personally haven't perfected my processes either. Never forget how lead free solder behaves not to mention different heat requirements. I absolutely hate lead free. Take care and enjoying your vids.
Great 2 parts...!! Your time and effort is well worth it...we all viewers learnt quite a lot.... important: how to be patient and do it right... outcomes may not be successful... all videos need not have a happy ending.... thanks
The thing that concerns me about this is the double sided board, you did your best to protect the components on the upper side but surely some of the heat can get to the other side and disturb solder joints, did you check the under side for issues ?
I have a 609 and failed exactly in the same way :) A bit frustrating because one can't tell if it's the bga soldering that failed or if the chip is fake, or perhaps if something else is wrong.
That solder braid, is probably copper coated steel. I use Goot-wick. It's not the cheapest but it works every time. You could try wetting your braid with liquid flux as you use it, that has been known to work fairly well. So sorry it didn't work out, thanks for sharing.
Check the crystal and the signal from the clock. Also. check the DAC. I heard you say in 1st vid they you were going to check the hdmi switching because the ic was hot. perhaps it's triggering a safety. Another thing you could try is freeze spray to see if anything comes back when cold. Also check the relay condition. Some newer units have a function that does a diagnostics readout, if this one has one it might help. One last thing is that these can still make good amps if you can convert them over to analogue. Look for the service manual and see if it lists all the voltages on the various pins, that may also give clues. I would like to know which chip switches the relays and also check that path.
I heard this multichannel amps with DSP have a reset procedure. Did you try resetting the amp? Procedure To reset an Onkyo receiver to factory settings, you can try these steps: Turn on the receiver Press and hold the CBL/SAT button on the input selector Press the ON/STANDBY button When "Clear" appears on the display, do not remove the power cord until it disappears
Thanks for your tutorial. learned something about how IC chips are mounted. Have seen the heating of DTS chips and wondered why that works or fails as I remember in "OLD DAZE" chips soldered through the board. Read comment below regarding adding more flux and movement may have cause a blob of solder between connections. Takes some patience and dexterity as well as seeing everything. maybe a second try off camera will solve it? Best of luck! I'm intimidated!!! LOL!
Been there done that.. (re-used old chip) no success also :( for science sake i did the other chips as well but meh! (TX NR515 + TX NR616) ...wondering if we could get just the amp to work? guess not. boat anchors for sale :)
I'm not sure what exactly is happening however here's my .02 worth... It seems to me the replacement DSP chip was nothing more than a blank. Meaning: It's the right chip part number but does not have the internal firmware specific to that make and model of receiver. The firmware is subject to a licensing agreement between the chip maker, Dolby and other digital audio companies, and the receiver manufacturer. As such it's not something readily available to the public. Trying to get the firmware and get the receiver working as it once upon a time did would be quite difficult and probably way beyond the budget of most electronics enthusiasts. The time and resource investment would be huge. I've been working on trying to bring these old beasts back to life and it's just beyond my patience and resources. However all is not lost. What I've seen: The schematics for these receivers is available for free online if you search long and hard enough. When the DSP goes so does the volume level for the main and possibly the zones. The video input, output, and video up scaling is gone. Any kind of on screen display in composite, S-Video, or RGB video is also lost. Without the DSP what you're left with is a fancy analog audio switchbox and however many power amplifier channels the receiver came with. The amplifier channels are not that robust and my opinion is to scrap them for amp parts to the end of building something much more reliable. Yank the HDMI board. Throw it away. You will thank me later. Some of these receivers run without the HDMI board behaving the same as yours currently does. Some require restoring lost pass through signals from other boards and the most notable loss was the ground connection. The schematic is your friend in hunting down what's lost. Some have serial ports or the capacity to add a serial port capable of talking to a PC. This opens up all kinds of possibilities limited only by your imagination and usage of resources at your disposal.
The on-screen setup menus appear only on a TV that is connected to the HDMI OUT. If your TV is con- nected to the composite video MONITOR OUT or the COMPONENT VIDEO OUT, use the AV receiver’s display when changing settings
Looks a little crooked when you started to move it around, with the rounded balls under chip you would think you could feel if it lines up with the holes on board as you move it around before you heat it up.
Felicitaciones , aunque no funcionó, se agradece el tiempo y la veracidad de tu trabajo sin editar, creo que los chips son de mala calidad o falsos, me sucedió con otro BGA. Saludos colega.
It was a great shame this amp still would not work after all the time and effort you put into this.....many years ago i tried to replace one of these chips and i even used a rework station but mine also didn't work so i just gave up...i think the main reason these chips fail is the lead free solder and dust that builds up on the pcb and creates more heat....i think also the designers of these amps should incorporate fans to help keep the chips cooler.
I read a lot of posts on many forum, and changing the DTS chip could not sufficient. It could be needed to flash also the nvram chip. And flashing this type of chip isn't easy...
May I compliment you on your great taste @rotxuf on your marantz hifi purchase as I am also owner of marantz cd and stereo integrated amplifier pm8007 and cd60 qed and van den hul cables and bowers and wilkins floorstanding loudspeakers.
He had it going for a bit in part 1, the chip got cooked when he tried to reball it, so the inputs aren't the issue. I suspect when he moved the chip, it bridged a couple solder joints causing it to not work
The way it popped and jumped, yep it's toast. He moved the heat away and turned it up so the chip cooled and he came back to center without warming the edges.
Don't think it is a counterfeit. Looking at the underside at 4:25, the old and new one have no obvious difference. But better look at the print on top too.
The issue with these is that they made it so hard to repair and they don’t manufacture a new chip people could buy. Tons of frustration when repairing these era. Try checking the diagnostics code. If the DSP chip shows ????????? It could still be the chip or the program that access this chip.
Amigo creo que le quitaste todo el estaño, no le degastes nada, creo que eso fue el problema, tienes que haber algo de estaño para que haga contacto, en UA-cam hay bastantes videos de como se soldán esos chip.
Trevor, I am rooting for you, but if you do not get it on the next try I would love to see you bash it to pieces with: a) sledge hammer, or b) Run over it in a 3500 HD pickup truck, or c) blast a huge hole through it with a pump action.
Hello master, Maybe the chip you bought is empty, you may need to put software in it, and unfortunately there is a possibility that many components purchased from China are fake or defective, so take into account customer reviews, and if many people have good reviews, such as original , good quality, I recommend buying it that way. components from original stores, a little expensive, but you will not have any problems Digi-Key Mouser Electronics RS Components i buy high-quality, original components for my own electronic devices from these sellers, I have never had any problems, I definitely recommend them to all my friends.
Great effort, Trevor! Failures are how we learn. I work on maintaining/repairing our three CNC routers at work. They are all from the 2000's. These things are fiddly and need lots of attention. Lots of experimentation, risk taking and failures but I learn something new every day. Keep up the great content my friend!
Nice try, I enjoyed watching the video. I’m glad you showed it even though it didn't work out. I do have a few suggestions for the next time you try this.
1. Put the tape "under" the foil to protect the surrounding devices. The tape you used looks like the high temp kind, but it by itself doesn't keep from heating the devices under it. That's what the foil is for. Two sided tape works well for this.
2. A heat plate would be good to have but is not necessary. What you did to heat the PCB before placing the chip should be good enough.
3. Don’t move the chip once you start heating it. You risk smearing the balls and shorting some pins.
4. Instead use temperature indicating paint. Get the paint that indicates a little above the melting point for the balls or the solder that you use. Use this to paint the top of the chip and when it changes color you know the balls are up to the correct temperature and melted. There is no guessing.
You gave it your best shot Trevor. Failed BGA components consign huge amounts of modern equipment to landfill. Thanks for the vid.
just saw one of these (609) for sale on FB for £20/$25, thought wow what a bargain, bet its a psu/fuse issue.....
got it home, 9 screws and top off, saw fuses buried under other boards so 40 more (yes) screws later I have the back off to lift the boards for testing fuses, all work ok so thats when i decide to google around for a service manual and see all these hits for 'no sound' on forums and youtube...
wished i'd done a search first lol.
I'm sure i read on a forum new chips are blank, and also that newer versions wont work so if last digits are 300 a 400 wont do, but a xxxB300 is best replaced with a xxxD300, what i have learned from the last hour of reading up on these is that they virtually impossible to fix well, if at all.
I'm looking at powering up the amp stage direct, and just using it as a 5.1 channel dumb power stage running from a usb sound card. or a boat anchor, weight for a gazebo, something within its capabilities
Thanks for all the info. No I never considered flashing, I'm a newbie at this type of repair and did it mostly to see what's possible. So much to learn
Trevor, it looked like you did everything right, except flood the chip with flux before soldering. By the time you preheated the board the little bit of the flux you applied was gone. When you add enough flux the flux on top may evaporate, but there will always be a puddle bubbling around the edges that can be sucked underneath as need be. I not a pro, but I have seen the pros use a puddle of flux and I have failed until I started to do the same. Next time if you add a glob of flux on the chip and do everything the same, I bet it will work and settle in place considerable faster. Unless the chip is cooked, obviously.
Edit: I went back and watched again and I noticed that you moved the chip considerably two times when the solder has started to melt, so you may have bridged a few balls. At the end where you poked it a tiny bit and it sprung back is about as far as you want to move it. Unfortunately, even though it seemed be jumping back into place, one or more pads may have been bridged already. You are a smart guy and meticulous. It won't take you long to figure it out.
Sorry, but anyone could see it wasn't positioned correctly, and then he moved the chip after he'd already applied more than enough heat to do the job. Shoddy work.
@@telsutton I'm sure you also do "shoddy work" the first few times you learn something new.
@@gordthor5351 I'm pretty much a newbie to reballing too... but I know not to touch/move a chip once you've been applying heat for ten seconds... and I was sincerely willing you all the way to get it right e.g. you were initially taking the job at the right speed, with patience, cleaning up the board nicely etc... but then it's like you become a man possessed, not even checking the alignment of the four corners before applying the heat (which should come from directly above, not wafting it everywhere!) All that hard effort down the pan, man! I felt gutted for you when you went to power on, but I knew the moment you moved that DSP chip that it was game over. Keep at it!
These Onkyos are the absolute worst!! I repaired my old one only to have it fail again. I ended up buying a used Marantz AVR and was amazed at the better quality in sound. Toss that junk!
The marantz is junk too, you'll soon find out
@@NunYa953Agree with you, Denon Marantz not what they used to be. Only one I will have is Sony ES.
Awesome attempt and patience. Can't fix everything but terrific attempt for being new to this whole mysterious BGA repair process. I personally haven't perfected my processes either. Never forget how lead free solder behaves not to mention different heat requirements. I absolutely hate lead free. Take care and enjoying your vids.
I was rooting for you, cuz I have 2 “609’s that need new chips or re balled and I was thinking about buying a hot air station. Thanks for the video
I've often wondered how those types of pins get soldered to a circuit board. That looks like a nightmare since you can't see the actual connections.
Great 2 parts...!! Your time and effort is well worth it...we all viewers learnt quite a lot.... important: how to be patient and do it right... outcomes may not be successful... all videos need not have a happy ending.... thanks
The thing that concerns me about this is the double sided board, you did your best to protect the components on the upper side but surely some of the heat can get to the other side and disturb solder joints, did you check the under side for issues ?
I have a 609 and failed exactly in the same way :) A bit frustrating because one can't tell if it's the bga soldering that failed or if the chip is fake, or perhaps if something else is wrong.
That solder braid, is probably copper coated steel. I use Goot-wick. It's not the cheapest but it works every time. You could try wetting your braid with liquid flux as you use it, that has been known to work fairly well. So sorry it didn't work out, thanks for sharing.
Check the crystal and the signal from the clock. Also. check the DAC. I heard you say in 1st vid they you were going to check the hdmi switching because the ic was hot. perhaps it's triggering a safety. Another thing you could try is freeze spray to see if anything comes back when cold. Also check the relay condition. Some newer units have a function that does a diagnostics readout, if this one has one it might help. One last thing is that these can still make good amps if you can convert them over to analogue. Look for the service manual and see if it lists all the voltages on the various pins, that may also give clues. I would like to know which chip switches the relays and also check that path.
I heard this multichannel amps with DSP have a reset procedure. Did you try resetting the amp?
Procedure
To reset an Onkyo receiver to factory settings, you can try these steps:
Turn on the receiver
Press and hold the CBL/SAT button on the input selector
Press the ON/STANDBY button
When "Clear" appears on the display, do not remove the power cord until it disappears
Thanks for your tutorial. learned something about how IC chips are mounted. Have seen the heating of DTS chips and wondered why that works or fails as I remember in "OLD DAZE" chips soldered through the board. Read comment below regarding adding more flux and movement may have cause a blob of solder between connections. Takes some patience and dexterity as well as seeing everything. maybe a second try off camera will solve it? Best of luck! I'm intimidated!!! LOL!
Where do you buy the hdmi/dts chips
Been there done that.. (re-used old chip) no success also :( for science sake i did the other chips as well but meh! (TX NR515 + TX NR616) ...wondering if we could get just the amp to work? guess not. boat anchors for sale :)
Maybe a factory reset to kill the stored failures? VCR/DVR and on buttons?
I'm not sure what exactly is happening however here's my .02 worth...
It seems to me the replacement DSP chip was nothing more than a blank.
Meaning: It's the right chip part number but does not have the internal firmware specific
to that make and model of receiver.
The firmware is subject to a licensing agreement between the chip maker, Dolby and other digital
audio companies, and the receiver manufacturer. As such it's not something readily available to the public.
Trying to get the firmware and get the receiver working as it once upon a time did
would be quite difficult and probably way beyond the budget of most
electronics enthusiasts. The time and resource investment would be huge.
I've been working on trying to bring these old beasts back to life and it's just beyond my patience and
resources. However all is not lost.
What I've seen:
The schematics for these receivers is available for free online if you search long and hard enough.
When the DSP goes so does the volume level for the main and possibly the zones. The video input, output,
and video up scaling is gone. Any kind of on screen display in composite, S-Video, or RGB video is also lost.
Without the DSP what you're left with is a fancy analog audio switchbox and however many power amplifier
channels the receiver came with. The amplifier channels are not that robust and my opinion is to scrap them
for amp parts to the end of building something much more reliable.
Yank the HDMI board. Throw it away. You will thank me later.
Some of these receivers run without the HDMI board behaving the same as yours currently does. Some require restoring
lost pass through signals from other boards and the most notable loss was the ground connection. The schematic is your
friend in hunting down what's lost.
Some have serial ports or the capacity to add a serial port capable of talking to a PC. This opens up all kinds of possibilities
limited only by your imagination and usage of resources at your disposal.
I think mine might need a replacement chip as well, where would you purchase one? It doesn't seem to be straightforward online buy
The on-screen setup menus appear only on a TV that is connected to the HDMI OUT. If your TV is con- nected to the composite video MONITOR OUT or the COMPONENT VIDEO OUT, use the AV receiver’s display when changing settings
is there a diagnostics mode?
Looks a little crooked when you started to move it around, with the rounded balls under chip you would think you could feel if it lines up with the holes on board as you move it around before you heat it up.
Felicitaciones , aunque no funcionó, se agradece el tiempo y la veracidad de tu trabajo sin editar, creo que los chips son de mala calidad o falsos, me sucedió con otro BGA. Saludos colega.
It was a great shame this amp still would not work after all the time and effort you put into this.....many years ago i tried to replace one of these chips and i even used a rework station but mine also didn't work so i just gave up...i think the main reason these chips fail is the lead free solder and dust that builds up on the pcb and creates more heat....i think also the designers of these amps should incorporate fans to help keep the chips cooler.
I read a lot of posts on many forum, and changing the DTS chip could not sufficient. It could be needed to flash also the nvram chip. And flashing this type of chip isn't easy...
May I compliment you on your great taste @rotxuf on your marantz hifi purchase as I am also owner of marantz cd and stereo integrated amplifier pm8007 and cd60 qed and van den hul cables and bowers and wilkins floorstanding loudspeakers.
Just seen this did you assign an input to a out put using the set up
He had it going for a bit in part 1, the chip got cooked when he tried to reball it, so the inputs aren't the issue. I suspect when he moved the chip, it bridged a couple solder joints causing it to not work
Maybe wire up a little incandescent bulb and position it sitting on the bad chip to keep it hot.
Dam, what a same :-(
Are you 100% that the chip had the original fault?
The bga chip's ball should be rubbed with some flux too.
i have 3 of these onkyo recevers and all have a htmi screen program menu to program them
My onkyo nr-626 sound card is not working how can i fix it
12:39 Is this the moment the CHIP burned out?
The way it popped and jumped, yep it's toast. He moved the heat away and turned it up so the chip cooled and he came back to center without warming the edges.
Waste of time, not a BGA issue but a chip issue at micron level. Onkyo was replacing the chip part of an official recall before they went bust.
Don't think it is a counterfeit. Looking at the underside at 4:25, the old and new one have no obvious difference. But better look at the print on top too.
Hi there I have a onyko that has no sound
The issue with these is that they made it so hard to repair and they don’t manufacture a new chip people could buy. Tons of frustration when repairing these era. Try checking the diagnostics code. If the DSP chip shows ????????? It could still be the chip or the program that access this chip.
Amigo creo que le quitaste todo el estaño, no le degastes nada, creo que eso fue el problema, tienes que haber algo de estaño para que haga contacto, en UA-cam hay bastantes videos de como se soldán esos chip.
Maybe you're right, I will try it next time
dumpster !
good try but sorry to say you moved the chip out of alignment.
Trevor, I am rooting for you, but if you do not get it on the next try I would love to see you bash it to pieces with: a) sledge hammer, or b) Run over it in a 3500 HD pickup truck, or c) blast a huge hole through it with a pump action.
Great ideas! This one's already been scrapped but next time fersure
Were r u from. Need address
STOP SPAMMING MY DAMN ACCOUNT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you, come again
un-click the bell dimwit
Hello master,
Maybe the chip you bought is empty, you may need to put software in it, and unfortunately there is a possibility that many components purchased from China are fake or defective, so take into account customer reviews, and if many people have good reviews, such as original , good quality, I recommend buying it that way. components from original stores, a little expensive, but you will not have any problems
Digi-Key
Mouser Electronics
RS Components
i buy high-quality, original components for my own electronic devices from these sellers, I have never had any problems, I definitely recommend them to all my friends.