29:20 I worried you might run out of cold spray! Great fix and I am happy that you managed to get a successful BGA repair done! Doesn't matter if the chip fails in a few months again - then the IC is bad - nothing you could have done anyway. The important part is that you managed to take off the chip and put it back. And for now, you fixed the issue! Great job!!!
I really was happy when it actually worked! I was afraid when you cooled it down! :)) That BGA IC i tried to fix also! There is a bond wire inside the chip itself (figured after months of testing and scraping off ) - that goes. If the IC is bent than it connects - when heated up it expands - the balls keep it on so it bends and it works - cools down and disconnects. That as far as i seen in 4 defective ones - is related to clock crystal - and the pins from IC that goes to the crystal on left side of it - the nearest one. If i remember right - those 2 pins should have 100k resistence - so you can messure on this working one following the trackes from the crystall to the chip and mesure on the chip side the 2 trackes that goes to the crystal (before any capacitors and components related to crystal) - and than mesure against an non working one. Working - whould be like 100k (if i remember right) not working will be nothing. This pointed me to the chip - and of course saying my rework was bad - but after i took the chips off - (i had 4 to test) - all of them at the pads that crystal goes if you touch them lightly with the meter probes gives you nothing - if you press down hard with the probes - gives you 100k!!!! I spent insane ammount of time to scrape off the pads - thinking the pads were at fault - and tracked them on the side of the chip - etc - but the issue is actually inside - and is a machanic issue! And yes the chips i got from AliExpress - and none good - and on a B rev - i think even if it was from a working machine after heating it up to take it off and heating up to put it on - is already ded! So my Onkyo ended up as spare parts sadly - but at least i realised what was the actual issue! (not sure if you can maybe even mesure over the crystal directly - but worth trying) I hope what i wrote here helps! I enjoyed the video! And that it was saved!!
The bad thing is, Onkyo didn't exactly advertise they had an extended warranty period for this range of receivers, at least not here in the Netherlands. When mine died I had to read on a forum about this issue. Luckily mine was in the last few months of the warranty period. My receiver was fixed and after I got it back I immediately sold it, as from the forum posts, and like you said, I gathered this was far from a permanent fix, where supposedly fixed receivers encountered the same no sound failure again.
I got sent an Onkyo AVR (TX-NR607 or something) by a friend a few years back. I bought a new TI DSP for it, presumably the "D" version with the "fix". I removed the original chip before the new one arrived, but I couldn't be bothered to install the new on in the end. lol And yes, it sounds like a very similar issue to the Xbox and PS3, where it's actually the *internal* solder ballz that fail. Or, with the TI DSP chip, maybe some kind of issue with corrosion or something. Not quite sure.
I built my own AVR in the end, as I was never happy with the way most commercial AVRs are built. I managed to get hold of the example code for the SIL9777 HDMI chip, which can do 4K60 passthrough, and the I2S/HBR audio extraction. Then I used the same Cirrus DSP chip used in many commercial receivers, including my Onkyo TX-RZ800, and Anthem MRX-720. (the Onkyo was also bought as faulty, mainly to help reverse-engineer the SPI config for the Cirrus DSP. It was a simple repair, and now I need to sell it. lol) I finally got audio decoding working on the Cirrus DSP about five months ago, including Atmos and DTS-X. Still a lot to do on the new prototype AVR build. But even the current prototype is quite usable already. Hopefully I won't ever need to spend a small fortune on a commercial AVR / processor again. I should always be able to find ways to upgrade mine, I know exactly how each part works, and each (stereo) amp module is easily replaceable.
Really well done on the BGA reballing, btw. I've only tried it maybe three times, and only once was successful. lol (for the VSA-100 chip from a Voodoo 4) On the first attempts, I used a hot air station like you did. I tried it on the lowest possible air flow at first, but never quite got the ballz to stick properly. I will have to try adding some extra flux next time. What worked on the third attempt, was to simply put the chip into the reflow oven (modified £30 toaster oven) after. That properly reflowed all of the solder balls, and the chip then looked perfect.
That one is so much cleaner than mine! My TX-DS494 I did some maintenance to recently. The buttons for the front panel became resistors! Which kept confusing the MCU causing it to press multiple buttons/freak out whenever you'd press something. Since it relies on resistance to know what button was pressed. Also took apart one of the relays and cleaned its contacts, since one channel kept dropping out. The remote never worked for it, re-flowed the IR sensor on the front and now I can use the remote! Been meaning to hook it back up. It usually lives under my PC powering a sub and a couple speakers.
The fact you managed to reball successfully a BGA is already a BIG win! From my experience BGAs that run hot have the tendency to develop bad connections, I believe a good heatsink is a good thing to have. If it is the chip itself is becoming increasingly flaky, it is a no fix as you said. What I cannot understand is how reballing helps in that case.
In this case it MIGHT be that the issue was indeed the BGA. Who knows. If not, heating up the IC to 240C, would temporarily fix the broken connection inside, by mechanical "expansion". I'm basically wiggling things inside so it works again - until it stops :)
I would love to have a source for the revD chips as well. What went wrong with not just this chip, but also with the PS3, XBox360 and various NVidia and ATI graphics chips, is that the method used to connect the silicon to the PCB inside the BGA is flawed. Heat cycles make the connection points fail and there is no (commercially viable) method to take the silicon and connect it to a new daughter board in a reliable way. Reflowing, reballing and such may temporarily get the internal connections functioning again, but since the whole process is flawed and you aren't changing that, any repair is temporary.
understood - though the PS3 and XBOX have much severe thermal cycles than this Onkyo. I suspect then that maybe a heatsink MIGHT help in lengthening the life of the unit!
Good video. Thanks for sharing. I think adding heatsink it a good idea anyway. I don't understand why temperatures higher than 40...50 degrees (Celsius) are considered as "normal" in modern(ish) devices. On my experience, adding a heatsink over the CPU to the consumer devices (especially while they are new) prolongs their life dramatically in comparison to those without heatsinks. Why manufacturers save on heatsinks? Is this programmed obsolescence or a parsimony?
Hi Tony, what's the point of re-balling if as you say the problem is inside the chip, it sounds like bit rot to me, the logic level of the internal memory bits are right on the edge of changing hence heat and cold has an effect? would probably fix it if we could re flash the mem.Bob
Hi - I mentioned that at some point. It could go to the bin or I could have some BGA fun and maybe squeeze some time out of it. It's still working after some days... :)
@@tony359 Absolutely, and I thought you did very well, you are working with electronics at levels way above what a person would normally be doing with the time you have been doing it, you are certainly a fast learner, I know there is nothing like doing it for yourself as an incentive 😄. Bob
oh and most importantly I wanted to get rid of it, it is taking too much space! So I was like "If I can "revive" it good, otherwise I have an excuse to push it out of the door"! :D
29:20 I worried you might run out of cold spray! Great fix and I am happy that you managed to get a successful BGA repair done! Doesn't matter if the chip fails in a few months again - then the IC is bad - nothing you could have done anyway. The important part is that you managed to take off the chip and put it back. And for now, you fixed the issue! Great job!!!
ahah yes, that can is almost empty! It was good fun as you said, doesn't matter if it fails again! Thank you!
I really was happy when it actually worked! I was afraid when you cooled it down! :)) That BGA IC i tried to fix also! There is a bond wire inside the chip itself (figured after months of testing and scraping off ) - that goes. If the IC is bent than it connects - when heated up it expands - the balls keep it on so it bends and it works - cools down and disconnects. That as far as i seen in 4 defective ones - is related to clock crystal - and the pins from IC that goes to the crystal on left side of it - the nearest one. If i remember right - those 2 pins should have 100k resistence - so you can messure on this working one following the trackes from the crystall to the chip and mesure on the chip side the 2 trackes that goes to the crystal (before any capacitors and components related to crystal) - and than mesure against an non working one. Working - whould be like 100k (if i remember right) not working will be nothing. This pointed me to the chip - and of course saying my rework was bad - but after i took the chips off - (i had 4 to test) - all of them at the pads that crystal goes if you touch them lightly with the meter probes gives you nothing - if you press down hard with the probes - gives you 100k!!!! I spent insane ammount of time to scrape off the pads - thinking the pads were at fault - and tracked them on the side of the chip - etc - but the issue is actually inside - and is a machanic issue! And yes the chips i got from AliExpress - and none good - and on a B rev - i think even if it was from a working machine after heating it up to take it off and heating up to put it on - is already ded! So my Onkyo ended up as spare parts sadly - but at least i realised what was the actual issue! (not sure if you can maybe even mesure over the crystal directly - but worth trying) I hope what i wrote here helps! I enjoyed the video! And that it was saved!!
So sad, so much heavy tech that cannot be saved...
I'm happy too - it's still working BTW :)
The bad thing is, Onkyo didn't exactly advertise they had an extended warranty period for this range of receivers, at least not here in the Netherlands. When mine died I had to read on a forum about this issue. Luckily mine was in the last few months of the warranty period. My receiver was fixed and after I got it back I immediately sold it, as from the forum posts, and like you said, I gathered this was far from a permanent fix, where supposedly fixed receivers encountered the same no sound failure again.
I read that whole thing, and only after realized it was you.
Long time no see. lol
I guess it was too expensive to recall them. Greed, I'd say. Or maybe it would have meant the collapse of Onkyo. Or TI. Who knows.
@@electronash 😅
Well done!
Thanks!
I got sent an Onkyo AVR (TX-NR607 or something) by a friend a few years back.
I bought a new TI DSP for it, presumably the "D" version with the "fix".
I removed the original chip before the new one arrived, but I couldn't be bothered to install the new on in the end. lol
And yes, it sounds like a very similar issue to the Xbox and PS3, where it's actually the *internal* solder ballz that fail.
Or, with the TI DSP chip, maybe some kind of issue with corrosion or something. Not quite sure.
Agree, the internal solder might be the actual issue.
Atleast TI is a more honest company then Nvidia.
I built my own AVR in the end, as I was never happy with the way most commercial AVRs are built.
I managed to get hold of the example code for the SIL9777 HDMI chip, which can do 4K60 passthrough, and the I2S/HBR audio extraction.
Then I used the same Cirrus DSP chip used in many commercial receivers, including my Onkyo TX-RZ800, and Anthem MRX-720.
(the Onkyo was also bought as faulty, mainly to help reverse-engineer the SPI config for the Cirrus DSP. It was a simple repair, and now I need to sell it. lol)
I finally got audio decoding working on the Cirrus DSP about five months ago, including Atmos and DTS-X.
Still a lot to do on the new prototype AVR build.
But even the current prototype is quite usable already.
Hopefully I won't ever need to spend a small fortune on a commercial AVR / processor again.
I should always be able to find ways to upgrade mine, I know exactly how each part works, and each (stereo) amp module is easily replaceable.
13:37 - the 32 MiB is probably just the size of the NAND Flash, or at least the partition used.
Really well done on the BGA reballing, btw.
I've only tried it maybe three times, and only once was successful. lol
(for the VSA-100 chip from a Voodoo 4)
On the first attempts, I used a hot air station like you did.
I tried it on the lowest possible air flow at first, but never quite got the ballz to stick properly.
I will have to try adding some extra flux next time.
What worked on the third attempt, was to simply put the chip into the reflow oven (modified £30 toaster oven) after.
That properly reflowed all of the solder balls, and the chip then looked perfect.
I know the feeling about leaving projects behind :)
That one is so much cleaner than mine! My TX-DS494 I did some maintenance to recently. The buttons for the front panel became resistors! Which kept confusing the MCU causing it to press multiple buttons/freak out whenever you'd press something. Since it relies on resistance to know what button was pressed. Also took apart one of the relays and cleaned its contacts, since one channel kept dropping out. The remote never worked for it, re-flowed the IR sensor on the front and now I can use the remote! Been meaning to hook it back up. It usually lives under my PC powering a sub and a couple speakers.
resistors! What kind of environment was it used in?
The fact you managed to reball successfully a BGA is already a BIG win! From my experience BGAs that run hot have the tendency to develop bad connections, I believe a good heatsink is a good thing to have. If it is the chip itself is becoming increasingly flaky, it is a no fix as you said. What I cannot understand is how reballing helps in that case.
In this case it MIGHT be that the issue was indeed the BGA. Who knows.
If not, heating up the IC to 240C, would temporarily fix the broken connection inside, by mechanical "expansion". I'm basically wiggling things inside so it works again - until it stops :)
I would love to have a source for the revD chips as well. What went wrong with not just this chip, but also with the PS3, XBox360 and various NVidia and ATI graphics chips, is that the method used to connect the silicon to the PCB inside the BGA is flawed. Heat cycles make the connection points fail and there is no (commercially viable) method to take the silicon and connect it to a new daughter board in a reliable way. Reflowing, reballing and such may temporarily get the internal connections functioning again, but since the whole process is flawed and you aren't changing that, any repair is temporary.
By the way, this is exactly the reason why RevA is also bad, same process.
understood - though the PS3 and XBOX have much severe thermal cycles than this Onkyo. I suspect then that maybe a heatsink MIGHT help in lengthening the life of the unit!
Short fix is better then no fix as long as you are aware of the problem. Nice job...
Yep - plus BGA practice :) Thanks!
Good video. Thanks for sharing.
I think adding heatsink it a good idea anyway. I don't understand why temperatures higher than 40...50 degrees (Celsius) are considered as "normal" in modern(ish) devices. On my experience, adding a heatsink over the CPU to the consumer devices (especially while they are new) prolongs their life dramatically in comparison to those without heatsinks. Why manufacturers save on heatsinks? Is this programmed obsolescence or a parsimony?
These receivers are space heaters. I think it's a mixture of what you say :)
Hi Tony, what's the point of re-balling if as you say the problem is inside the chip, it sounds like bit rot to me, the logic level of the internal memory bits are right on the edge of changing hence heat and cold has an effect? would probably fix it if we could re flash the mem.Bob
Hi - I mentioned that at some point. It could go to the bin or I could have some BGA fun and maybe squeeze some time out of it.
It's still working after some days... :)
@@tony359 Absolutely, and I thought you did very well, you are working with electronics at levels way above what a person would normally be doing with the time you have been doing it, you are certainly a fast learner, I know there is nothing like doing it for yourself as an incentive 😄. Bob
oh and most importantly I wanted to get rid of it, it is taking too much space! So I was like "If I can "revive" it good, otherwise I have an excuse to push it out of the door"! :D
This should be an interesting video
I won't comment or I'll Jinx it :) Enjoy!