The bad clunk you’re experiencing is the result of using a low end cassette. Higher end ones will have nearly no play in them. When your riding a mid using pedal assist (not throttle) you should already be engaging the pawls before the torq of the motor kicks in, I could definitely see the issue if one was using just the throttle. I have not experienced the issues you are talking about with having to pedal at extreme cadences to keep up with my mid drives, but I haven’t ridden the diy mid drives. Mid drives I think are better suited for pedal assist, not throttle driven. They’re also better balanced for mountain bikers and take advantage of the gearing in the drivetrain to supply more low end torque when needed. Hub motors are extremely smooth in their power delivery. Each have their pluses and minuses.
hub motor with torque sensor should be more widespread IMO, I've never really like cadence sensor evokes, the response is always too slow and you can't control how progressive and how strong the more kicks in. I don't like ghost pedalling, if you don't want to push on the pedals, you might as well use the throttle.
@@geemy9675 Spoken like a true cyclist who doesn't think any bike should move without pedaling being done. You don't like ghost pedaling and cadence sensors well get your bike to use torque sensors and don't ghost pedal and leave the rest of us to legally ride how we want. BTW ghost pedalling IS exercise to some people.
@@ghz24 I have nothing against not pedalling and using throttle on an ebike...I am also a former motorcyclist and I also have nothing against however is enjoying any form of biking or motorcycling and I wish much more was done to make it safer. It's just a personal preference, that made almost every experience I had on hub motors/cadence sensors not so great. what I don't like about cadence sensors is that you have zero way to modulate the power, and the usually very slow on/off response. throttle can mitigate the problem by giving some control, and of course the "problem" of cadence sensors is not so bad when you have enough pedal assist levels, and you are cruising at constant speed on a flat trail with no intersections, and you can find a pedal assist level which is in the sweet spot that has good balance of speed/assist for you, or if you have a weak 250W 25kmh ebike that you will probably use at "full power" most of the time. It just makes any 500/750W cadence sensor ebike feel very unrefined. on the other hand most mid drives are too expensive and also have disadvantages regarding shifting under load and drivetrain wear. I don't think it would hurt to see more hub motors coupled with torque sensors, at least as an option. I think torque sensors is also better for safety when I see my daughter or my wife using a 65lbs with 500/750W, with a two second delay between you starting or stopping pedalling and the motor response, it makes low speed maneuvers very jerky especially if you are in a speed with tall gearing. unfortunately the same delay applies on the throttle. torque sensor fee more natural because you can modulate the power the same way you do on a regular bike, just as if you were 2x/3x as powerfull
@@geemy9675 I would likely like a torque sensor if it was selectable not one or the other. They sound more controllable at low speeds more intuitive. Cadence senors can kick in unexpectedly and definitely have a learning curve. Downshifting while slowing to a stop can be tricky till you get used to it. I end up ghost pedaling a lot because I don't want to upshift just to downshift for the next stop signal. I have one of the ones that wont let the throttle engage until it's moving already so being in a lower gear when stopping is crucial if you want to accelerate at a reasonable rate when starting again. When I can go a ways without stopping I go to high gear and help it get up to top speed 28 mph. The throttle is limited to 20 but ghost pedaling will getsbout 25 with no pushing just fast pedaling (which can be harder than pedaling with at least a little resistance). It seems like there are lots of people that would like to mandate assisting with pedals. I get a lot more exercise on my electric bike than I would on a non-electric one because I couldn't ride a normal bike in the terrain near me. I mistook your post as wanting to take away options for others.
What I did with my ebike (chinese) with a built-in mid-drive is - I went into the settings menu and set the smoothest enabling PAS setting. So that when I start pedaling, the motor would increase it's torque gradually. That way there's no hitting the freewheel internally by the motor. My legs initiate a smooth hit on the freewheel as it's suppose to be naturally, and by that time the motor catches up with me and starts doing it's job. It's a 1/2 second action, but it's real practical for me as a rider and healthy for the bike's freewheel.
I wouldn't recommend using freewheels with mid drive conversions. Your problem isn't from a too powerful motor, it's from using too low quality of a rear hub. You should be using a proper cassette hub instead of a freewheel hub. Freewheel hubs were only designed for bio power. Major differences in quality between the two components. This is coming from a bike mechanic.
I don’t even understand why freewheels still exist for mainstream bikes, like in the modern mtb and road part of cycling you very rarely see a freewheel hub and not a cassette.
Hi, what type of e conversion kit would I need for a 20in fat tire trike with pedal assist? I live in an area with a lot of hills and it's impossible to pedal up.Thanks
@@msbuttercup2073 unless you are buying a trike specific conversion kit, then I would just recommend a simple hub drive motor in the front for simplicity reasons. However if you are loading the rack(s) with heavy items frequently, you might need more power than a hub motor can provide.
I have a Maxon hub motor from Switzerland for many years now with zero problems and zero maintenance. Friends with mid-drive motors, even expensive ebikes like Specialized, seem to have a lot more problems. Another benefit of a hub motor is a lot less wear on the drive train. With a hub motor only your power is transmitted to the rear wheel, while with a mid-drive motor, your power in addition to motor power is transmitted via the drive train.
First thing I did on my DIY build, with the same CyC X1 Stealth mid-drive motor, was to upgrade my drivetrain to a Box Components Box 2 P9 X-Wide Single Shift E-Bike Groupset. Absolutely love the combination. Feels like it will climb a wall. Eats the mountains here in BC for breakfast. Throw in a 21Ah/52V battery from Electrifybike and I am good to go for long rides. Best thing about the rear cassette from Box is the ability to purchase the first 4 gears for $20. They are the ones to wear out the fastest since I am using those the most by far. You can switch 1 out or any combination up to 4 gears. I have over 3,500 km on it with the only problem being 4 broken spokes so far. Zero flats because I upgraded my tires to Continental Ride Tour Replacement - extra puncture protection, E-Bike rated tires. I just got the portable/folding 200watt solar panel from Electrifybike. It puts out up to 4 amps, depending on sunshine, and will allow me to go further, much further into the mountains. It comes with a very compact solar charge controller. I also got a spare battery mount and a very lightweight 500 watt inverter from the guys in Utah so I can take the battery off the bike and connect it to the inverter to charge my drone, phone, or laptop and do my video editing in the middle of nowhere. All fits neatly in one of my panniers with room to spare. Love the freedom. Money I have saved in gas alone has almost paid for the bike build. By the way I purchased a used 2012 Brodie Bandit hard tail gravel bike in excellent condition on Facebook Marketplace for only $220 US. That was what gave me the extra money to go with the Stealth and the larger battery.
Oh, oh oh I am dreaming and you are me that wrote your post, no wait a minute no I am not. My dream is your set up, Nice! I want to try box but the $$$$ without any feedback but now I feel ok to move forward from your experience and the 4 gears are a nice thing,sick of buying clusters for the one or two bottom gears. The solar panels in the sand where I am at are perfect combination to get to the beach spend the day charge up and ride home. Dear God bring me the cash for such luxuries.
Box are bomb proof, but saying this if you use the right teeth meching for the ebike chain for the right cassette and front meching on the front ring and use the middrive system as it suppose to be used by going up and down the gears us using a gear cut off sensor then you have no need for box. Componants but box are very very good, but lije I say, if you set the drive train up properly no need to get the box as because if you don't set up the drive train and chain line up properly even the box componants will fail
I have never had any cassette/hub problems with my Bosch mid drive after 5 years of daily riding. I like the mid drive flexibility to run 2 different sets of wheels with different gearing on each. I run 26x4" for off road, sand, snow and 27.5x3" for commuting. It's very easy to swap wheels and fix flats on a mid drive.
Very interesting video, as I'm about to build a Bafang mid drive bike. Sorry I haven't read all the comments. the play in the hub you talk about is the time it takes the pawl/tooth inside the hub to go from 1 point of engagement to the other. Typically even on expensive hubs there are only 36 points of engagement through a complete revolution of the wheel/360 degrees, meaning there is 10 degrees of free play before the hub bites. I don't know about your particular mid drives but the Bafang's motor on pedal assist mode requires the rider to pedal half a turn before the motor engages. Meaning the torque from your legs takes up that free play in the hub before the motor kicks in, saving wear on the freehub. However in throttle only mode all the motor's torque is transferred straight to the hub and once the free play is taken up you'll likely hear a clunk as the pawl engages, particularly from a stand still but also while you're moving. If you can reprogram the motor to reduce the initial current this will help. Also bike hubs weren't designed for 1000 watt motors so if this free play and early wear on the hub is a problem then factor into your build a 100+ points of engagement hub like the Halo Superdrive with 120 points of engagement for less than $200.
@@BlackMamba-lt8oe They are the tiny levers that are spring activated like they are in socket wrenches. The pawls are what makes the clicking sound. They grab the grooved inner barrel of the freewheel as you peddle forward and create the increased clicking sound if you peddle backwards, or are coasting and not peddling. If you buy the more expensive freewheel there are more pawls and grooves in the inner barrel for them to grab onto with less play and are more of an efficient power transfer because they grab much sooner as soon as you first peddle forward. That's just my amateur view.
Nice video, over here in the UK, I have fitted a front wheel electric motor hub drive , limited by UK law to only 250Watts power! I fitted it to my Marin full mountain bike with a Shimano 11 speed internal rear hub , instead of derailleur type sprockets! Although the front wheel hub motor is only 250 Watts, I have the benefit of a two wheel drive bicycle. Also I change can change gears to " help the motor out" on steep hills! An additional advantage of a front wheel hub motor drive is, that if my chain comes off, or breaks, I can still drive home using the front wheel on its 's own! A further advantage of this system, is that when off road, or in very muddy roads, I have twice as much traction with both wheels being powered! But being able to independently change gears to what the motor is doing, is very useful, and I can match the required effort of my legs, to the motor requirement to get up the steep hills in my area! Remember, at the end of a day, its still only a bicycle, and I ride it to get my daily cardio, so having a more powerful motor defeats the object! If I want to go fast or not pedal at all, I have my BMW R Nine T Scrambler motor bike, with 1200cc and 115 HP! if you get the point! Nice video ! take care on the roads over there!
At 69 I'm still peddling the bike myself, and the 1.1HP peak of me is long gone in the past. Just got a frame today to try adding electric assist to, so your posting is both timely and very much appreciated. Be safe our there!
That play you talked about is from lugging down the motor.. That can be eliminated by putting on a smaller chainring, that will cause the mid-drive spin faster, which also keeps the motor cooler and gives more torque. If you have your gears too high and not enough power (level) being delivered that sucks of your power and lowers your range. Try a smaller sprocket, i use a 36 N/W chainring.. And listen to the motor to keep it spinning fast, it seems counter intuitive but that will increase your range.. I have ridden over 15k miles in 4 years.. It took a lot of trial and error to figure out the sweet spot for Gear to Power ratio to increase range. It's all math.
I live in the Appalachians, I go up large mountains all the time. A mid Drive motor is absolutely essential if you're going to be going up steep hills. A 750w rear Hub drive compared to my bafang bbs02 750 watt mid Drive.. is no comparison at all! The only way the Hub Drive motor makes sense is if you don't have any major Hills to climb. Because unlike the mid drive, you can't re-gear the motor using the drivetrain. There's one Hill in particular here that has a 34% grade and my mid Drive goes right up at 14mph in elec gear 9 mech gear 2. I can do 39 mph on the flat in elec gear 9 and mech gear 8. I have it set up that the motor barely assist me and just makes it a lil easier to pedal in elec 1 and 2. You can program the mid drive to your liking. Each gear is individually programmable. You won't be able to do that wide a variety of riding with a single geared hub motor. Well, you Could but you'd have to run say a 2000w or 3000w motor and say, double the battery size to compensate. Even then, it wouldn't be as good. The largest problem with mid-drives is people that don't know what they're doing try to mount them to a low quality bicycle. It can wear out the driveline components on a cheap bike. If you need to ASK someone if the bike that you have is "too cheap" for a mid drive motorization.. then you don't know enough about bikes to build a mid Drive to begin with!
I put my mid drive on a 1990’s free trek bike. Over 3000 miles with no issues , except flat tires. Under $750 build with the bafang 750. Great power and acceleration
I totally agree with you. Middrive are far superior than hub or hub geared ebikes they had so much more torque. But people have don't ride middrive ebikes correctly, they just ram it in top gear top PA and thrash it everywhere and when after 50p miles they start hearing bad sounds coming from the middrive they then come on social media to slag off middrive, because they ignorant. Middrive ebikes are totally different when it comes to riding them from a hub drives, gears must be used in low when starting from stand still or low gear and high PA on climbing hills. Basically mids have to be ridden lije driving a car through its gears, you cannot start a car from stand still in 3rd or 4th, well it's same with middrive, yes it will start but putting tremdouse load on the middrive and keep doing this and it won't last longbut as long as middrive are set up properly with good chain lines and the proper ebike chain that will Mech properly with the correct teeth on both rear cassette and front ring and using the gears as they should be ridden then all this thing about the guy talking about the gap between the bite of the pedaling through the freehub or in America they say freewheel will not matter what so ever. I just think this video is a middrive bashing video looking for problems I stead of using common sense to show there no problems in using a middrive. Maintainance also is a must do regularly with middrive, either regressing between 500 or 1000 miles which let's be honest is a 30 to 45 minute job if that. Middrive are just far superior to hub drive in every way if you do the right thing with them by setting it up properly and using middrive cut out gear switch or rake cut outs can achieve the same thing and not cross using drive train chain rings and cassette and ebike chains. With ebikes best to keep too either shram drive train through out or shimano through out then finding the correct ebike chain becomes alot more easier to find the correct meching when changing gears, and getting chain line correct and using whole of the cassette at the back when stop starting on a fast run building up or going up to a high gear through the gears. Basically riding a middrive is totally different when using a hub drive, there alot more too using a middrive but you do get alot more out of a middrive if used correctly and set up correctly. Hub or geared hubs are for lazy riders
I have a 1500 watt rear hub kit that loses traction instantly under acceleration on bitumen, and will power wheelie on demand while going 40-60kph. If that motor was powering a typical mid drive chain it would snap instantly. People saying mid drives have more torque is just plain BS. Who really wants to go slowly up a hill, and need to back off the acceleration just to change gearing, losing momentum just to avoid snapping and twisting your derailleur (lol mid drives) my rear hub motor power slides off road and throws roost Like a MX bike
@@Billy-burner they not suppose to be used doing wheelies and as for the backing off, the gear or break sensor is momentarily for split second engaged, just like a clutch does on a motorbike or car, I think you clutching at straws to explain your side off the argument, plus the torque argument, what you talking about, the figures don't lie when it comes to the actual torque.The middrive is places in the most accurate place on the bike to gain the torque, just like a motorbike with the engine in the middle with the chain being the method to release the power of the engine too the rear. Have you seen many motorbikes with rear hub engined propulsion?, I not. Plus I think these huge hub motors look so unsightly and are easily seen by the you know who who like to get you stopped and the bike crushed where as a middrive is a little more discreet to the eye.
I would think solving the gear ratio problem with a larger front chainring could also help with the excessive torque on the freewheel, by increasing the leverage at the pedals. Freewheel are cheap and are easily messed up by a powerful rider on a regular bike so I definitely think it would resolve it for sure. I think mid-drive with an actual modern mountain bike rear hub could solve that as many of them have much better engagement. And are definitely a lot stronger then any freewheel
exactly what i was going to say try a chainring around 56 tooth this would put you in a larger sprocket in the back giving less chance of slip too if you think a 56 sounds too large i was riding mtbs with 56 tooth chainring back in the 90s and it was the better way .these pathetically geared bikes are embarrassing tbh .we used the call the front small chainrinring granny gears and never used them
A good free hub and cassette helps a lot. A cheap freewheel will eventually come apart with a moderately powerful mid drive. Turning down your start current(soft start) helps as well
Recently upgraded my Cannondale hybrid road bike with a Bafang BBS02, which has a cadence sensor. Although it is not as smooth as a torque sensor bike I tried, I am still very happy with it. I left throttle off as I wanted to pedal when moving, and the motor addition is a real game changer for my aging knees when facing hills and headwinds - I live near the Rockies. And I haven't really found that I need to pedal overly fast to cruise with the motor running.
I've had my bafang bbso2b about 2 years now, I did the conversion myself, if I say it myself " it's very neat (hidden wires) it's a brilliant piece of kit, I've done miles on it, I love it 👍😁
I have ridden a few thousand kilometers on my 750 watt Tongshen Tsdz2 mid drive. The issues you mention I would not have thought of. The only issue I have with the mid drive is breaking a chain - because you have no way to pedal the bike like with a hub motor. The Tsdz2 is a very smooth motor and has four levels of PAS. It is important to shift to lower gears on startup and to choose the best PAS option. I have an 800 watt battery and there is no hill that presents a problem. The MTB drive train is not designed for propulsion that is the equivalent of the strength of three persons. If the power is abused the drive train will wear out prematurely. If I use the second level of PAS I can get 60 miles out of the battery for about 10 cents of electricity. It was a mistake to have such a heavy 48 volt battery but I never run out of power. I own both the Tsdz2 mid drive and two 300 watt hub drive ebikes and find both drive systems have merit. The less powerful hub motors do not tax the sprockets and chain like the mid drive. There is a great risk of addiction to 750 or 1000 watts and the speed that comes with that energy.
i'm running my Tsdz2 500W on a 625Wh 48V battery, i have no issue with battery weight myself, neither have i ever have anything break yet, 2000km on my motor and chain, everything still stock i very often hammer hard on it, i weigh way more than i care to admit and stomp on my pedals, 42T with 7S DNP 11T freewheel, my top speed with it is about 40km/h and on strong uphill i stomp on the pedals to go atleast 25km/h without a retarded cadence i run a KMC E8 chain though, 7-8 speed and optimized for ebikes so it doesn't hurt to have quite a sick amount of torque to remove my old freewheel (didn't go fast enough to my liking with a 14T one) i actually had to buy a 30cm wrench and still stomp on the wrench with my feet, i couldn't get it off with a 15cm one, not even with weight, so i'm sure it had quite a ton of torque on it, lol.
My dad bought me a dirt bike converted to pedals and now I’m trying to convert it back to a motor, electric of course. This video gave me relief, now knowing it’s a good thing my back wheel gear is bolted on. Also love the videos :)
I found that Tong sheng Tsdz2 mid drive 750watt is great, installed on a duel suspension MTB done 3000 ks I replaced the blue gear(32 aus dollars) at 2000ks to find little wear. Also the drive chain doesn't seem to stretch as much as you'd expect. The pedal assist is smooth no spinning. I had the display in recent times cut out. I suspect it maybe condensation. (East coast Australia has had continuous rain for months!)But if I reboot it's all good. I also found that I can pedal just fine with unit off. I mainly ride in "Tour" mode which is 2nd egear. On hills if tired I put up to "Speed" 3rd egear flys up the hill super smooth, and I still have Turbo 4th egear. I have 52volt 13amhr triangle battery that's made to fit my medium size frame. All the weight is where you want it! Centre of gravity is between your legs.The first time I rode on MTB Trails it felt natural just faster and easier. Range in 2nd gear 140ks! The motor and battery cost 1100 au dollars. Bought from Alibaba in 2018.
I just installed the same kit on my road bike, but with a smaller "shark" battery. I didn't want too much assist, just enough to maintain my avg speed while commuting over a big hill. The "Tour" setting is just right for me, but installed a throttle in case things get hairy. Altogether I spent just under $700 USD through eBay, plus took the opportunity to put in new cables and a new chain. Only problem I had has been documented multiple times, is that if you have your rear cables running under the bottom bracket, you'll have to modify the plastic guide or somehow reroute your cables so there's enough room for the motor to slide on. There's only a couple mm of clearance.
i installed my tsdz2 500W in February this year, i've already got 2000km on it, while i haven't used it as much recently cuz of heat and rain, i run mine in turbo pmuch all the time cuz i cant bother riding uphill under 20km/h, and if the motor can't do it i stomp on the pedals upright, cuz i hate slow speeds ebike rules are so dumb, people with a 25km/h moped/scooter can ride strong gradients at 25km/h cuz 50cc engines can have abt 4kW if they limit ebikes to such a low value it's logical people pick the moped as they're a fuckton cheaper than storebought decent ebikes, and thank god no manufacturer actually limits their motor to 250W, that would suck dick uphill, the Power Line CX "250W" motors actually peak at over 650W so the rules are a joke, some shitty way to keep people buying overpriced crap proprietary shit from manufacturers.. on the other hand a 3kW ebike would be dangerous if the PAS isn't torque sensing, so i feel there should be a class 25km/h up to 3kw, no certificate of conformity and other bullshit, but mandatory torque sensing or something, so shit wont throw an uncontrollable wheelie instantly lol
I have a lower power front direct drive with hardcore torque arms and love it. Drive train issues out of the question. Perfect conversion for me. Chain can break and fall off and I can still get home.
In the UK we are not allowed to have throttles and you will make no progress if you don't peddle. The best way to avoid stress on the rear hub is to be in the same gear ratio as if were on a bike. I tend to move the power button up and down depending on the terrain. I basically want to cycle as much as possible and just use full power for pesky hills.
I'm a boomer, former mountain biker, and owner of a manual transmission automobile. I noticed you didn't shift much, if at all. IMHO, most of the mid-drive issues you brought up can be mitigated by using proper shifting technique. Even though motoring + pedaling produces more torque, you need to downshift when coming to a stop, and upshift when increasing speed. This increases efficiency AND reduces wear & tear on the motor & components.
I have over 10'000miles on my bbshd I absolutely beat the crap out it and has given me no problems . I still have the original rear cassette only had to replace the chain once.you just have to get used to the way they operate by far better than a hub motor on hills and performance.!
@@shapan0ipoly Truthfully its optional at even 5K miles. The grease that is in the motor new, both primary and secondary which btw is a different kind of grease for each, doesn't really disappear. But...the secondary as Joe said is easy. Remove the right crank and chainring and outer casing and you have access. Seal is generally reusable. Mobil 28 is preferred.
I built a cargo trike that uses a hub motor to drive the rear axle through a chain . I played with the side gears and found running a 1.25 reduction was the best bang for the buck battery wise. It is extra weight, but the motor is happier hauling loads at a higher rpm, using slightly less watts given the same speed. If a middrive motor was turned around with a left side hub, and gear output, you could bolt a larger gear on the rear wheel at the disk brake mount and you might get better range letting the motor run at its most efficient speed. Yes, electric motors do make torque from zero rpms, but most have a more efficient speed that they should be turning at. If you compare high end drives to the cheapos most of us run, there is a big difference in power used at lower speeds. Most cheap motors are more efficient at much higher speed than they are used for.
As a noob in 2022 I build my first e-bike Trek 4500 26" Bafang BBSO2 750w dual 48v-30ah batteries. We live in Hunterdon County NJ where there is mostly hills. The stock 44T chainring and the 8 sp 16/46 freewheel started to overheat the motor. Finally I got the right gear ratio using the Lekkie 28T and 16/46 freewheel. No more ghost pedaling but I still feel and hear clunk if I start off in a high gear but I immediately shift down.
2 years and no problems BBS02 I had to beef up the mounting so it didn't rotate. highly recommend mid drive, As with most things the installation is everything.
At 4:50: "I'm sitting at 50.7% so just over... what, 60% battery." It might be fair to round 57% up to 60%, but 50.7% is less than 51%, so you're lucky you had some downhill on the way home.
I blew the CYC Stealth clutch at the chainring on the first day I had it. The pawl based clutch wasn't up to the force being applied by the motor, and turned into metal mince. I then replaced it with the Freewheel 2.0, which is a sprag clutch - and proceeded to invert the sprags a month later (I apply quite a lot of force to my pedals). Once the clutch problems are refined, I think it'll be a winner, but at the moment I have concerns, which don't exist on a hub-based bike. (I also own a bike with a Bafang G020.500.D front motor.)
Thank you for this, I will also talk to them about the Freewheel 2.0 springs because that was my first question: which version was the person in the video using? When I discuss specs with the Cyc people (and they do email back promptly) I am always aware of the differences between gas/electric power plants and the drivetrain considerations necessary - so I already had the FW2 on my current quote. If you're going to buy up to the Pro from Stealth then spend the extra few bucks for the improved components suggested for it.
I prefer my “barely” bike; a 250W mid-drive which barely assists me. To get help, I gotta pedal like I mean it. Works great for single and double track mountain bike trails and ranch roads I use it for. Feels like me 20 years ago, rather than some motor pushing me around. I have a motorcycle if I want to get pushed/pulled around.
At 62, that's all I want to accomplish too. I own a couple of 30 year old Trek hybrids. I not only don't know which bike I will convert.....I don't know what system to install. Was looking at mid-drive for sure.
Your comments about mid drives may mostly be related to the CYC drive that you used. The CYC is at the high end of watts and torque. But it was run thru a low end drivetrain. I haven't gotten to try a CYC so I don't know about its smoothness of control either. I've ridden Shimano, Bosch, and Bafang though. Shimano was butter smooth, felt very natural and connected to legs. Assist seemed pretty linear of pedal torque vs motor output. Bosch was very similar but felt a little more exponential motor output vs pedal torque. I have BBSHD in old Trek. It feels a little less smooth and makes more noise than my buddy's Shimano. But the Bafang is definitely faster, especially up a hill. Haven't had cadence issues with the mid drives I have ridden. They have all done a good job at interpreting my leg inputs. Maybe the CYC is overboosting output vs input in order to "feel" extra fast and causing the cadence problem. Your observations were good about your CYC experience in a bargain bike. But those observations don't really carry over to mid drives in general.
I may have replied to NPL as requested but probably not because I seem to lack telegram competency lol. I'd swear that I saw my reply on here but it is gone now. Hope the telegram stuff doesn't still have to be done in Morse code.
And this is exactly why I prefer my rear hub motor. I can balance the effort to power ratio perfectly so I can actually put in reasonable effort and get much further plus more effectively burn much more fat while still having all the power I need on tap for if I need it. I could go on and on and on about why I think rear hub motors are far superior in almost every way. But I won't bore anyone. (I own both)
Actually, all of the motorcycles I have owned have a "Cush Drive: rear wheel. The sprocket has a separate carrier that the sprocket bolts to. There are rubber blocks sand-wedge between the sprocket carrier and the rear wheel itself. The Cush helps when throttle action takes up the slack in the chain and also damps shocks from the road surface transferring to the gearbox. (see at 10:28 ua-cam.com/video/pNze9nAaxZY/v-deo.html )
Your motorcycles play golf! I'd advise them to stay out of the bunkers, thus being less reliant on the sand-wedge. They could however get to the club house and stack their snacks so they are sandwiched together 🤣.
Street bikes do have cush drives, but dirt bikes do not. Mainly because dirt bikes are designed to be ridden on loose surfaces where there is at least a little bit of slippage, which acts as the cushioning for the transmission.
@@trevorjameson3213 Fyi, that's why when people "dual sport" their dirt bike it's advantageous to opt for a cush hub to save front sprocket splines and transmission.
3:52 One of the biggest problems is I don’t care what you’re running. If you try to run super hot through cheap wheels on speaker you’re going to break things more power equals more problems build a bike that has good components they won’t break. 😊
I've done a lot of conversations over the years, front and rear geared and direct drive as well as mid drives. CYC C1 Stealth is in my opinion the best conversation kit on the market today, excellent built quality and exceptional performance. It's not cheapest but sometimes you get what you pay for. My advice is always use a good quality cassette. If you are on a limited budget, check out the Tongsheng TSDZ2, the performance is adequate for a lot of people, it like the CYC is easy to install and it won't break the bank. 😉
Thanks for the video, You guys in the States are so lucky with the power levels allowed, here in "Little Britain" we're limited to 15.5 mph , no throttle ( on bikes made after 2015) and max power of 250W. I've just changed from a Bafang 250W to a Shimano Steps, which feels a lot more natural, but there's definitely a sweet spot between the cadence and the speed. Good point about the rear freewheel weakness, though with 250W probably no bother here. Perhaps the answer is the new"Pinion" mid drive with built in 12 speed gearbox and belt drive, looks awesome
Appreciate your input, but I've been riding a BBS02-equipped hardtail off road for seven years without incidents like described. Perhaps a more robust platform would have been better for you.
Damn! Thought I was old school at 5 years. I started with an HD. My 2nd build was with an 02. Turns out the 02 is a seriously robust motor if you use the gears properly. BBS02 is the best bang for the buck motor for sure.
My Trek with the Bosch didn't have either of the issues described. I think it has a clutch in the motor, and it's power assist didn't require me to peddle fast.
Your combination of a powerful CYC middrive pulling on a rear wheel with heavy hub motor is likely what broke the pawls in the freewheel. The issue is not the "freeplay" when the pawls engage. All cassettes and freewheels have this "freeplay" (some that reduce this by having many more smaller pawls are even more fragile). The issue is the indiscriminately sudden and powerful application of torque (too heavy handed throttle) by the mid-drive motor upon a drive train designed for human power. Us mid-drive riders (I'm using a Cyclone 3,000 watt 52v 20ah, and a BBS02, same battery both on 700c wheel 13-32 rear cassette), have to learn to shift using only pedaling, to install gear sensor cutoffs, and to not do WOT until your drive train is already engaged and are already under way (over 10 mph).. Yes our mid-drives usually thrive at gear ratios that would have us spinning out pedalling. But it's still up to us to use the right PAS levels and correctly selected gear ratios to allow us to pedal along with the motor to both gain back range, and to get exercise. That's one of the main points of any mid-drive setup.
@@sammiller6631 ah yes dont put two motors on a street bicycle and then slam the throttle to max speed from zero. Far too complicated to understand. What did he do wrong that could have broken an aluminum bycicle rated for 1/4 a horsepower?
I live in Jacksonville Florida. I’ve owned both. I kind of miss my hub…but I’m not on a 1000w bafang mid drive attached to an 8 speed gravity gsx mountain bike. Trying to figure out when I need to change gears at this point. My hub was a lot faster.
@@iamrocketray not of it's a front or rear hub ebike, only a mid-drive. Front or rear hub motor bikes can move without a chain. The motor is in the wheel so it rotates the wheel, chain is not needed in any way.
Since bafang motors generally have a pedal sensor, which is more like a rotational motion sensor, you don’t need a chain. You just need to rotate the pedals. You can of course fit a throttle as well as pedal sensors. So it is not true to say that all mid drive motors can’t be ridden home with a broken chain.
@@roughrider9831 Dude, a mid drive motor turns the front crank and nothing else, that spinning without a chain will get you know where, trust me. A rear or front hub motor then yes the wheels will turn and no chain is needed but on a mid drive? not a chance in hell without a chain.
Your first issue is due to low quality freewheel\freehub, and your second is your expectations. If you want a powerful middrive (that doesn't instantly break parts), the rpm has to be high (power is torque x speed, and torque must be limited for a mid drive) You can still use it at comfortable cadence's, but the power output will be somewhat limited. If you want monster power at human cadence's, you need to go hubmotor. Having that massive hub motor on at the same time as your middrive is a issue as well....unless your running dual controllers and powering them both. I just got my x1 gen2 on today, and so far i love it. I can pedal along at up to 30km\h (which is the legal limit here, and tbh about as fast as i want to go anyway) and the throttle is sublime with the BAC 855. Even with my crappy freehub, the power engagement is smooth. My previous kit (cyclone 3000) is a total piece of junk in comparison. It probably could have been fixed with a ASI controller, but i couldn't find any solid guides on how to set one up with it, and tons of complaints that the hall sensors didn't work.
You bring up some very good points. The pawls are what causes the gaps or delays in pedaling. The higher end brands hubs will have more pawls and hence less gaps and chance for chain breakage and that snap on shifting. I think a Rolhoff hub could work well with a mid drive motor. No shifting, no worrying about chainline. Just need to make sure chain tension is properly maintained. The chain set up is like a single-speed bike. Anyone out there use a Rolhoff hub on a mid drive motor?
If using bafang midrive all you have to do is put a gear changing sensor on it around $30 and problems of chain breaking goes as cuts out the motor momentarily when changing gear, can also use the brake sensors to stop the motor as changing gear. But if you get chain lines correct and set up a middrive correct by using the correct ebike chain with the correct teeth meching on the front ring and rear cassette then middrive are perfect and always using the gearing on the back changing from low too high from stand still and stop putting in high gear and high pedal assist when starting from stand still as this puts astronomical strain on thd motor. Middrive are meant to be ridden like driving a car or motorcycle, using the gears. Riding s hub driven bike from riding a middrive ebike are miles apart different but people are either ignorant too this. But ridden and set up properly middrive are so so far suowrior than hub or hub geared ebikes
I'm a total noob to e-bikes (research stage, not even shopping yet) and this video is very valuable for me because other videos said mid-drive e-bikes are better because they couple the operator's effort and pedaling rpm with the motor's effort and rpm, so it's supposed to feel like the motor works hard when you do. NPL Ventures, your experience with this mid-drive motor actually teaches me the opposite, which is valuable. Your experience in having to pedal furiously at low felt torque to "keep up" with the motor's pedal assist at high settings actually mirrors the experience I had on a rented hub-drive e-bike yesterday. I didn't like that, at high speeds with pedal assist, I had to pedal furiously with virtually no felt resistance/torque. The bike I rode yesterday had, I believe, only 4 settings for pedal assist, so maybe this experience improves on both hub-drive and mid-drive bikes that have more pedal assist settings or virtual "gears." Can anyone comment on that?
Get a bbshd mid drive. this guy is a clown. You can build a good bike with the right gearing and program the motor to work the way you want it to. None of that is possible with a hub motor. and forget big hills or hauling anything with a hub motor. It will kill your battery and youll still be doing most the work
I have ridden a mid drive, but the hub motor for me is plenty. I see no issue whatsoever on a hub drive going up hills, or having to battle with the motor while peddling which I peddle constantly. If the hub is not trash it is wonderful to drive. And if something were to occur you can go to countless shops to have it fixed within minutes. Also it is true if your chain drive is destroyed somehow on a mid drive good luck on walking it however miles away you are form home over bridges, highways etc 😧
A chain is simple enough to have a spare and carry the tools for a roadside change. I'm 45 and finally changed one for the first time today and I can't believe I've avoided doing it for so long. You can be back on rhe road in 5 minutes.
My guess is you're in a fairly flat area. NYC is supposed to be flat but I live on a very steep hill. I have yet to see a street legal hub drive ridden up my hill. Even delivery riders get off and walk. Meanwhile my 750 watt BBS02 climbs (slowly) up the hill without issue (with the throttle alone if I kept it installed). A spare chain is cheap and easy to carry (as are tools). I'd rather carry 1 spare chain and fix it on the fly than carry a whole bunch of spokes for a hub drive to fix on the fly.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 If that is the situation then it is a necessity to utilize a mid drive. I believe a hub drive is for the majority of people who think they need a mid drive for small, medium, and even big hills. If where you live is nothing but up & down then a mid drive is a proper utilization, but some think hub driven bicycle may not have strength to power up with, or without peddling, and that simply is not true. Also outright destroying a drive train is not simply popping in a different chain.there is no remedy for that, but to see a bike mechanic. Hub driven bicycles are not limited by even having a chain drive at all which is a life saver if it comes down to that somehow.
@@buffalomind6838 True, most people are better served by a hub. Problem for me was it didn't feel like riding an analogue bicycle with a hub drive. I feel like I can dial in the power and gearing with a mid-drive so it still feels like I'm putting in effort but my motor can climb hills without my help if necessary. My primary reasons for wanting a mid-drive were the extra torque (even if only used occasionally) but also that the bicycle is easier to wrench on or fit in a car. I don't actually live in a hilly area (NYC) just on a steep hill. That one hill means no matter how easy my ride I come home to a steep climb. When I say steep, I mean cars without snow tires slide down while trying to drive up in snow. I have never destroyed an entire drivetrain. In thousands of miles split over 2 bikes I have broken 1 chain over more than a 5 year span and worn the top gear of a cassette but the other 9 are still fine (both problems on the same bike). When I did my 1st build local bike shops shunned e-bikes. Even today they curse having to change the tire on a hub drive. Yes being able to throttle home without a human powered drivetrain is definitely nice. Fortunately I can fix most my problems on the fly now so that necessity hasn't come up. I don't say mid-drives are for everyone. I do say they have superior climbing ability in class 1, 2 or 3 e-bikes though.
You are right about sharing the final drive with humans and motor. It is a weak link as 'evolution' of bicycling dictates as light as possible all components for humans. However with good chain gearing selection I do not think the freewheel/freehub slack is the big problem, maybe cutting power for shifts, peddle to make the shift, then use the throttle. It would help. Long term a 2ndary drive strong system like on Sur-Ron might be a solution here. The gearing for you is "out", not matched, for linking to the motor. Many mid-drives eliminate this problem with a gear box built into the motor to match where both you and motor are efficient (Like the Cyclone motors). The chain drive from motor to cranks can be altered too to help here. And I would just use the throttle control to also help here (get that sensor circuit out of the mix!). Your drive in the wheel is geared! to help with this problem which is why that works so well. An advantage of mid-drive is keeping the weight in the center of the bike and not having it 'unsprung' in the wheel. I unfortunately didn't realize all the benefits that I could have, as I built my e-bike on a rigid frame! Should have used a full suspension frame! Used a Cyclone motor from Luna (discontinued). I did have a problem with corrosion in one 'sealed' bearing as water and salt got in there and overloaded the system.
I am going 25+ miles per charge on a Bafang BBS02 Mid-drive with a 48V-17.5AH battery. The freewheel is locked out like a fixed gear and replaced with a single 14T rear sprocket. The motor has its own built in freewheel, so I didn't need 2 and a 52T front sprocket.
@@michaelsMW2movies So far it is doing just fine. All of my e-bikes are single speed, just this one is currently the fastest. I am building a bike with a 3000W hub motor that I hope will be a bit faster a 60 mile range by using a 72V 40AH battery. Using a 60T front sprocket and a 16 rear.
@@EBikeBuilder_ Actually it isn't. In level 1, I am getting up hills at 18mph and level 2 gives me 22mph up the hills. This bike is set up for pedal assist only, I don't use throttle.
@@JoeBManco That is awesome. You must have legs like tree trunks. I'm using motors because I'm 55 and need the help as well as the gears. I'm not hitting anywhere near the speeds you are on hills but it's nice to know that with my lower gearing and speed I'm not taxing my 02 in the slightest.
Tired of trying to find 13 t freewheel so I got a 52 t chain ring for my bafang mid drive. I’ve found my sweet spot. And I’m not peddling like crazy to keep up. Only thing is, my range is reduced slightly. 👍🏽
I have a 52 tooth blingring on the chainring, it helps keep the selected gear in the higher tooth count gear on the cassette, meaning the torque is distributed to more teeth, hopefully enabling longer service life & no chain jumping so far.
I own a bbshd and my only issue is I have broken 3 freewheels in 2 years. Breaks the teeth I even start off in the 32t freewheel cog and shift down to the 11t gradually. But after some long rides teeth start breaking and it sucks. Guess it's just part of the power it gives out.
I tried a lot of hub drives before I decided to buy the mid drive. I felt the exact way you did about how I couldn’t pedal after a certain point but only with hub drive. After owning a mid drive for awhile now, my conclusions are that if I ride it like I value my chain and cassette (which I do) then I have to deal with the lack of resistance at times when I want to pedal assist as a trade off and that I’d be dealing with that with hub drives too because I did. I think the answer is that there hasn’t been an e bike produced yet that gets it quite right- I can’t wait for the day it does happen though.
Hub drives can be a drag; the motor makes the back end heavy; if you have a hard tail; then the bike hurts if you go over a bump unexpectedly! ouch; get a shocked seat post at least! The newer mid-drive motors from Bafang have a motor cut-out switch for 2022-23 models that will cut out motor power during shifts (amazing) and it works great. I have a Accomile Cola Bear with a 750w motor and it has the cut-out; there are never any issues with power on the chain, and the chain does not fall off due to power on during shifting. This motor is inexpensive compared to all the other motors out there, and a better design too; better than Bosch now! Forget belts, and forget the issues usually associated with Mid-drives. My Cola Bear climbs hills like a Bear; very fast.
that CLUNK that happens when the motor kicks in is not as bad with pedaling and PAS, when your pedaling engages the freewheel before the motor kicks in. With BBSHD you can program the "start current" so it ramps up to full power in a more gentle way. That also helps with the terrible clunk on the freewheel to some extent. It's also how people use the BBSHD with more fragile IGH without breaking the internals
Ssshhh. If you don't repeat the mantra that hub drives are evil, I will lose some of my good mid-drive customers that I can count on for chain and freewheel replacements on a routine basis. Bottom line - bicycle drivetrains that were engineered for human power wear more when they are subjected to human plus electric power. There's no getting around those physics, and without completely reengineering chains and freewheels and internally geared hubs, I'm going to continue doing pretty good business replacing driveline components for mid-drive customers. This isn't unique to mid-drives, by the way. Top athletes also go through driveline components far faster than the average bicyclist, because they just put more power to those components.
I have both mid drive bikes and direct drive rear hubs. There are pros and cons with both systems. The cheap rear hub kit (48v 1000w direct drive) I installed on our Burley tandem bike is pretty awesome, since it doesn't stress the drivetrain. The ugly side of this is the cheap controller with cheap parts and poor firmware. Admittedly, the controller is taxed by the load, esp during long climbs. I really wish the electronics were higher quality and the controller had better, upgradeable firmware. I'd like to buy a quality controlIer with firmware that can be adjusted, but I haven't found anything so far. The worst part of the cheap system was the wheel. The hub motor puts a lot of stress on the spokes. I was breaking spokes every time we went out, but the cure was a set of stainless spokes that are holding up very well. Not one broken spoke in 2000 miles. The hub motor is also very heavy. The mid drive I have is great, delivers a lot of power, is of good quality with good, upgradeable firmware, but it is definitely stressing the chain drive system. It is a 1000W 48v Bafang system, mounted on a Voodoo 29er. I probably should have gone for a lower power system, But I'm a victim of "Tool Time". More power!! Another benefit of the mid drive is that It is a lot lighter than the hub system.
I am of such an age and origin that 3-speed hubs were the only real gears around, (fancy was a 3-speed deraileur from France!). And those hub are NOT strong compared to a Mountain bike deraileur setup. That is why the first mountain bikers shifted out of using internal hubs.
The issue regarding too high cadence for optimal power output is something I don't really understand. I have a BBS02 and one of my issues with it is that if I pedal with a really high rpm (going up on steep hills) it simply can't keep up with my pedaling speed. I find the BBSHD much better in this regard, that has a higher max rpm. I don't really understand why would someone want to pedal that much slower, to effectively compromise motor efficiency. Those low kind of pedaling cadences are surely not good for your knees, or any of the drivetrain components.
I think your issue #2 was caused by the cheap Mountain Bike from Walmart. The gearing was too low. I have a mid-drive bike with proper gearing. I can pedal at 30MPH, and meaningfully contribute to propulsion. If your Mongoose had a proper gear ratio, you wouldn't have had the problem. One big advantage of a mid-drive PAS bike is how far you can go. Today I rode over 52 miles, returning home with 18% battery remaining. This is much farther then your hub drives go.
A direct drive hub motor with _regenerative braking_ can go much farther than any mid-drive, Greg. There's less energy lost in chains and drivetrain friction.
@@sammiller6631 If the direct drive hub with regenerative braking is ridden the way most people ride them, using the throttle and minimal pedaling, then my mid-drive bike bike will go much further with a similar sized battery. The regenerative braking will lengthen their range at most 10%. Not an insignificant amount, but not enough to make up for lack of pedaling.
@@4GregF "ridden the way most people ride them" is making excuses. Don't compare apples to oranges if you want a true measure. If both bikes have the same PAS and are pedaled the same way, but one is mid-drive and other is a direct drive hub with regenerative braking, which will go farther?
The hit to the freewheel can be solved with some simple motor tuning and the issue of gear ratio just seems like you're not selecting the correct gear for the current speed/load condition. On a mid drive that uses the rear cassette gearing, it is super important to make sure you are in the correct gear. Just like a manual transmission car it would likely be unwise to try merging onto a fwy on ramp in 1st or 5th gear.
What I like about the hub drive is I upgraded the chainring to 52T. I'm getting a workout while going 25mph. Really changed everything for me. Dont think I would be happy with almost any mid drive at least for commuting as you cease to contribute after 28-20 mph.
That is the one thing I want to upgrade on my ebike is the gearing. A 14 tooth cog is not little enough to push as hard as you want within fast. An 11 is much better, or even a 9 tooth cog etc
To think you can't get a work out on a mid drive is ridiculous. I ride with performance cyclists without a motor. If I ride my BBSHD dropbar bike, also with 52 tooth Lekkie chainring at 25mph and set the power level on 1, I am pushing 180 watts through the crank with my body and the motor is contributing about 120 watts for a net of 300 watts. A BBSHD mid drive roadbike is a wonderful training bike to compete with elite cyclists. I do it all the time.
@@lukewalker1051 mabe I don't have it right, but I've never seen a large chainring on a mid drive bike which leads me to it's just not a thing. Got pics? What's the setup look like I'm curious.
@@hank_Reardon that's an easy google, I've experimented many sizes for both the chainring and cassettes to find the most efficient gear ratios for my BBS bikes. On my Bbshd 42T front and 46t rear gives me the best of both worlds
High ends cassettes have little to no play. And at high speed they make nice sounds :) Also I never had your second problem with my mid hub. I think when you're using a powerful motor it's more of a motorbike and it makes little sense to pedal with it.
Street motorcycles actually have a cush drive: the sprocket is direct mounted to the cush drive, which is mounted to the hub but with large tight packed rubber dampers. As the age and get worn, they can get slopping, which is very noticeable (similar to what you are experiencing). And the solution is to pull them apart and pack plastic spacers in so that it is once again riding on tight packed large surface area of rubber. Dirtbikes usually lack the cush drive, which is a big part of why they are much harsher on the road (and easier to break traction).
Middrive has the advantage of using the gears, where as a hub motor is a single speed, so I would of thought middrive would win with allowing the rpm to run higher than a fixed gear hub motor at slower speeds & hill climbing, I have a bbshd 1000 and yes the motor can spin faster than I can pedal, but it works well if, I have it in a gear where I am pedling fairly fast, balances between pedaling input and motor input.
PS, my gearing is tall enough to spin the wheel when off the ground, to 96 kph 60 mph, but it can only push me up to 50-65 kph , using a 52 tooth chainring then means I can use 2nd - 4th gear for road riding, using the gears with additional teeth on the cassette, means the cassette & chainring will last longer, less stress on the teeth & less loading with increased tooth count in contact with the chain
Hub drives have higher peak power capability. The transmission through a mid-drive's bicycle drivechain limits the maximum motor power that can be coupled to the wheels. Hub drives are have no such limitation.
@@sammiller6631 dude please stop pretending you have the slightest idea how motors work. Your in every comment section on this video saying a bunch of complete crap lol
What is needed is some sort of transmission that allows the motor to spin at the optimal RPM, and, always maintains some pedal resistance at all speeds.
Judging by your handlebar sway when pedaling, I wonder whether your crank length is too long for your legs. (and/or saddle height too low). Especially when you mentioned the hub drive forcing you to spin out when the motor hits its peak. It's supposed to be geared down to be optimal with human pedaling cadence. BTW, thanks for the laugh about a 'super steep hill'. But I'm out west where they get really steep.
Hello, hope you are well. I have an old hub motor e-bike that I found behind the bins and just couldn't get on with the pedal assist as it kicked in too fast when you start to pedal. It has a half throttle as well though, so I disconnected the peadal assist sensor and just use the throttle to guage where it needs to be when pedalling. It is a lot better as I've modified the controller in order to give more power. Only complaint is now the top gear when pedalling makes my legs go too fast... needs a taller ratio i think. With regards to mid drive kits however, I think they are a good idea for lower powers. The problem with running higher powered mid systems is that the drive train is not engineered to deal with that much power. The torque and hammer action inside the freewheel is going to wear out really quickly, then fail. Then you can't even pedal it because your main drive train is shot. Higher powered mid drive systems should have their own drive train and gear system that are self contained. One idea could be to use a pupose built sturmey archer style hub gear (more durable), coupled with the regular deraileur system. The motor would have it's own drive train and work through the hub gears. The pedals also have the usual chain etc setup but would be able to meet the speed at which the motor turns the rear hub gears, both pedalling and motor would work through the hub gears making for a high speed, high powered vehicle which could be tuned to each individual riders fitness level electronically and mechanically. No more destroying freewheels and chains. Quite surprised I haven't seen anything like that yet.
Ive seen an ebike like this from china. Its a high powered mid drive with a belt going to the rear wheels along the left chain stay and the regular chain that pedals the bike on the right side. Not sure about the pedal assist details or anything.
So many issues with your mid-drive gripes. First issue is using a massively powerful mid-drive with a freewheel & big box hub. My Ludicrous HD on an old Cannondale with good hubs and cassette is working fine but needs truing every thousand miles or so. I'm not against big box at all, I've done a BBS02 on a $100 bike and plan an HD on my Mongoose Dolomite ALX but I don't mind tinkering and upgrading parts as they wear. The proper gearing is always a delicate balance done to taste no matter the drive (if you pedal). I'm not personally familiar with the CYC, except in print, but that play you had isn't present in my BBS02 or BBSHD. I do notice some slight delay and grab if I go WOT or start in PAS 9 but it comes from my freewheel & cassette (BBS02 & BBSHD) and is nowhere near as jolting as your lag & snap.
I have same issue, if i pedal, I need high gears to move but the motor wants to spin very very fast in lower gears. I tend to keep my bike in the middle and ghost pedal. The cinching issue happens to, again thats at higher power so I try to avoid it. This is on a bafang BBS02 750W. But imo mid-drives just deliver more power/speed and I prefer centered weight on my bikes. Personal preferences, your criticism is on the mark though.
One major advantage of a mid drive is the many customization choices for front & rear cassette. With my BBSHD build, I chose a 42T chainring and a 46T chainring and I can utilize 10/11 gears for pedalling. I mainly ride with PAS 5, which is 100% power to the motor and I still get 25miles range on a 52v 19A battery. AMuch higher range on the lower PAS levels.
issue #1 = use your break cutout switch like a clutch issue #2 = turn down your motor, get a good setting ( i went with a 9 speed setup, running a 9speed on the back) I put the pedal assist on 5 and start out on gear 3 or 4 and then upshift until im at about 20mph/32km and 7th gear is good with more to give.52 on the front
On your second point about the gear ratio, you didn't have a large enough front chainring. The one you had was designed for mountain bikes and high torque for low speed climbing, not for high speed commuting. That's not the mid drive's fault. The new Lectric XPremium has a mid drive with a 52 Tooth front chainring and a 12 (smallest) in the rear. It can comfortably pedal above 20 mph AND has a torque sensor.
Ok, Newbie here. Is there not a shaft/belt drive in the market? Also, why would anyone use conventional metal spoke rims instead of the solid composite rims? I hears the metal spokes can loosen up or fail. Just for the record, I'm up in years and looking at 3 wheels exclusively. Falls are not an option at my age. Want long range, like 100 miles, high speed of at least 50mph, and some creature comforts, without spending umpteen thousands of greenbacks. Any suggestions/answers? Thanks, like your vids too btw.👍👋✊🖖
I've been riding hub motor for several years and I recently rediscovered the joy of pedaling by adding a single speed 53T crankset. It's an empowering feeling when you can crank your legs and actually keep up with your motor 😂. I just upgraded my second bike with a 58T. I can't wait to feel that leverage😁
I’ve had two different bosch motors and I noticed the motor’s ideal gear ratio the other day. I looked at the display and I was putting in almost all the effort at 20mph because it wanted me in a higher gear. That part sucks but it’s worth it.
It's a simple choice, Off road fun more like mountain biking get a mid drive and be prepared to do some repairs ( carry tools ) Commuting and run around fun no hastle get a rear hub drive. I have both and just ride the appropriate bike for the ride, my mid drive is bafang ultra on a Frey ex so a sturdy build capable of both jobs but the need to shift gears mid acceleration makes road riding less fun than hub drive.
You can get rear cassettes that grab immediately. I watched a bike tech video on UA-cam. It was installed on a mountain bike, and the rider said it sounds really nice and doesn’t make the constant clicking noise, but it also made it harder to pedal from a standstill while going uphill. Something like that woukd probably be great on an e- bike though...
Just happen to show up on my video to watch and I spent 11:08 minutes wasted that I can never get back. This is such a ignorant video. You use cheap component to create a DIY mid-drive e-bike and then you want to complain???? You use cheap parts and you use the logic of a motorcycle to make your point??? Really??? Really??? The point you are missing e-bikes are suppose to be bikes not scooters are motorcycles. E-bikes are suppose to help you not do the damn work for you. This concept is lost among people who want to make bicycles into unlicensed motorcycles and straying away from the purpose of a e-bike. Instead of making a ignorant statement saying I had to pedal fast and easily to make the motor go then maybe you should understand the concept of shifting and using the proper cadence with the proper motor setting to get the desired effect. Most novice have that problem until they get experience enough to know when and how to shift and what level of assist to use to get to a certain speed. They usually don't make UA-cam videos claiming to be some type of authoritative figure acting like they should be taken as an expert. Stop trying to be expert on a subject that is way beyond your experience level. Understand the concept before you post. Let me help you. Say it after me. First understand the difference Between Cassette vs. Freewheel A freewheel which is also known as a block, consists of either a single sprocket or a set of sprockets mounted on a body which will contain an internal ratcheting mechanism and mount on a threaded hub. It screws directly onto the rear wheel of your bike and the mechanism that locks when you pedal forwards - forcing the wheel to be driven by the train. When you’re simply cruising along i.e. not pedaling, or going backward, it spins freely. A cassette is the more modern option and has quickly overtaken the freewheel. Cassettes as they have a series of straight splines that form the mechanical connection between the sprockets and the cassette compatible hub, which is called a freehub, and contains the ratcheting mechanism. The entire cassette is held on the hub by way of a threaded lockring. Some cassette systems from the end of 1980s and start of 1990s used a threaded small sprocket to hold on the larger splined sprockets. Cassettes resemble freewheels when installed, but are clearly different when removed as they don’t contain a freewheel internal ratcheting mechanism. Realize most mid-drive e-bike uses a cassette while most hub drive uses a freewheel. Maybe you should have use the right equipment for the right e-bike. A mid-drive e-bike is not or should not be designed as a mini-motorcycle or scooter. That is not the purpose of the design. Understand the concept of a torque sensor. Mid-drive motor e-Bikes are often equipped with a torque sensor. This combination offers the most natural pedaling possible - as you pedal harder, the motor provides more help. Back off, and so does the motor. Which means you should put the upmost effort using the smallest sprocket. Hub motors are more responsive??? Really? One of a mid-drive’s biggest advantages over a hub drive is that it can take advantage of your bike’s gears. Electric motors operate more efficiently at higher RPMs, and mid-drive motors are generally tuned to operate efficiently at a natural pedaling cadence. So when you’re pedaling in the right gear, the motor will be operating in its comfort zone. All this means that given equal power and torque, a mid-drive motor will usually be better going up steep hills, assuming you shift to the appropriate gear. The ability to work together with your gears has other benefits, such as improved range, and it contributes to the more ‘natural’ ride experience of most mid-drive. You do understand this is why competitive emtb racers uses mid drive and not hub motor right??? You do really need to get a proper mid-drive e-bike and learn how to ride it before you make these erroneous statements. If you are just wanting a e-bike to perform as a scooter then go ahead and make your argument. No one will care about weight, efficiency, design when you are mostly depending on a throttle. But if you are trying to say a e-bike designed as a scooter is better at being a bicycle than a mid drive motor in the contextual argument as an expert, you may want to rethink that analogy.
i live in phx az where everywhere is a flat and a grid. i ride to commute for work and errands and my read hub ebike it great. glad i don't need to deal with all the intricacies and apparent skill requirements of using mid drives.
As you know, electric motors work best at lower RPM, so using a mid drive makes more sense to get the most out of the battery while being able to use a ratio best suited to the load so the motor is not spinning itself out at higher RPM. I've not seen a freewheel break like what you are describing, so maybe there needs to be a more gentle delivery of power like what my mid drive Bosch does (28mph Trek Allant+). If you want a really strong freewheel for a mid drive, something like a DT Swiss hub with a Star Ratchet (360 degree pawl) might have the strength you need.
Ehhhhm no you really can’t generalize it this way. Super high rpms can be a problem but in General Electric motors work better at higher rpm with gearing. The mechanical power is Torque multiplied with RPM. Torque is fixed for a specific motor so they can generate more power when spinning faster.
@@dumbstupidfalk that’s true in most scenarios but not every time. With speed the Motor Core losses increase and in some scenarios efficiently decrease again when it turns very fast.
Mech engineer here. Electric motors have power and efficiency curves. The maximum efficiency will be near the higher range of RPMs. Search images for "motor efficiency curve".
@@blise518B sure, there are plenty of low RPM motors: low KV motors like a hub motor or a stepper (although they are pretty low efficiency). But in this context, a mid drive motor, higher RPM = greater efficiency, up to core saturation of course.
one of your finest video...very much liked that you went into details and although i have a bbs02 and think mid drive is the way to go...the points you discussed specially the stability of the motors and the pedal/motor ratio are very relevant.
Not really. Its relevant if you get the gearing wrong on a mid drive aka too short of gearing....and, you don't have your power assist levels set up properly. A BBSHD and BBS02 motor is programmable with a laptop and USB cable designed to interface the motor controller to the computer.
I love my bbso2b it rarely breaks my clutch might be giving out or might need a clean. I just want better parts for cheaper to replace then spending like 200 for a motor core that probably costs then 50 to make so....shows you how that goes.... Just hope bafang doesn't ruin there business with sitting on there butts and getting all corporate..so much better as 8fun now they meh in terms of how they present themselves....but despite my complaints I love it well lasted me a good 3yrs. Unlike a hub motor it will be really heavy and horrible to change tires hate them. Had the magnets fall out due to vibrations, burning the phases also the hall sensors going out. Just hated having to retrue a wheel just to fix it. Glad I got over my hub motor phase horrible for anyone. Good for records not for convenience.
I've had multiple flat tyres on my hub motor e-bike I've never had to take the wheel off. It's a 2 minutes fix with puncture repair kit. I'm only changed the tyre twice in two and a half years. You obviously have to take the wheel off for that.
Im building my next e bike this winter and i was wondering about a hub or a mid drive and nobody talked about the mid drive rides compared to a hub thanks bro
Sorry, but your experience is only a microcosm of the ten's of thousands DIY mid drives out there. I could write a book on both issues but will spare you. Let's put it this way...if the problem's you posit were more universally true, mid drives wouldn't have their cult like following. A couple of brief points. You were running your mid drive CYC through a 'hub motor freehub' versus a more universally accepted bicycle hub. The construction of the attachment to a rear drive hub motor is not the same as say on a conventional bicycle freehub with rear derailleur. On the pedaling speed versus assist issue with your CYC, that can be worked out with tuning. But your CYC was for example a 'torque sensing' power assist controller and for a Bafang BBSHD for example, all controlllers are cadence sensor based. But know, just like a geared rear hub motor, internal gearing in both a rear hub motor that is geared and say a Bafang motor that has RPM reduction as well....gearing is designed to match bicycle gearing and human cadence not to exceed about 120 RPM. This can all be explained mathmatically as well and what engineers consider when they design these systems. I personally prefer mid drive ebikes. My take on mid drive ebikes is, they are for more advanced riders. You don't want to put a novice on a Ducati Supersport motorycle and have them start in 3rd or 4th gear with ample throttle and not blow up the driveline/trans/engine. Problem is, people don't know how to ride a mid drive to extract the performance and these type of riders are better served with hub motor bikes IMO. I wanted to register the above comments because many may watch your video and believe what you write to be true. I have 3000 watt Bafang mid drive ebikes with 5K miles on them with the original chain and cassette. I ride them with elite road cyclists as in guys who can ride a bicycle 25mph without a motor who are accomplished racers...the world I come from...and on my ebike, my cadence matches my personal watt expenditure relative to how many watts the motor contributes perfectly.
@@FightFilms rear hub motors add a lot weight to the rear wheel which creates a high rear weight bias. Because rear hub motors only have internal gearing...or not at all, they are at a disadvantage when it comes to climbing hills for the same power level because on a mid drive the motor using the torque multiplication of the bicycle gearing. It is much harder to change a rear tire on a hub motor bike versus rear drive and because most of the weight is in the rear, the rear tire always flats more. I do agree mid drives are better for off road riding because of weight distribution and low gearing. But I prefer mid drives for all riding. I am not a rear hub drive hater. They have their place. I believe overall mid drives are better however.
@@lukewalker1051 Using a front wheel hub drive negates those real wheel problems. Don't demand that all problems must fit into a false dilemma. the fallacy of bifurcation is a fallacy for good reason. _Cheap_ rear hub wheels add more weight. But there are more expensive hub motors that are lighter than mid drives.
I convert all my mid-drive builds to a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed Disc Brake Rear Hub ($130). The second gear is direct drive mechanically. Perfect chain/belt alignment. No wear/skipping issues. Plenty of gear range without the hassles of derailleurs.
@@coskuarsiray Wow neat, that sounds like an automatic transmission. How is your experiment going especially on steep hill inclines? Where did you find this hub/shifter? I can't find anything on Google/UA-cam. What is the model #?
I have a mid drive but, because it has a torque sensor, I don't have the same issue you describe. If Inot applying any torque with my legs I'm not generating any assistance from the motor.
I built a BBSHD with Co-well 52 volt 17ah on my 29” and love it as long as you don’t power shift when peddling no hub drive will ever have the torque you can add a instant freewheel not cheap but if you don’t shift under power you won’t have a problem
The bad clunk you’re experiencing is the result of using a low end cassette. Higher end ones will have nearly no play in them. When your riding a mid using pedal assist (not throttle) you should already be engaging the pawls before the torq of the motor kicks in, I could definitely see the issue if one was using just the throttle.
I have not experienced the issues you are talking about with having to pedal at extreme cadences to keep up with my mid drives, but I haven’t ridden the diy mid drives.
Mid drives I think are better suited for pedal assist, not throttle driven. They’re also better balanced for mountain bikers and take advantage of the gearing in the drivetrain to supply more low end torque when needed.
Hub motors are extremely smooth in their power delivery.
Each have their pluses and minuses.
hub motor with torque sensor should be more widespread IMO, I've never really like cadence sensor evokes, the response is always too slow and you can't control how progressive and how strong the more kicks in. I don't like ghost pedalling, if you don't want to push on the pedals, you might as well use the throttle.
well said. I agree.
@@geemy9675 Spoken like a true cyclist who doesn't think any bike should move without pedaling being done. You don't like ghost pedaling and cadence sensors well get your bike to use torque sensors and don't ghost pedal and leave the rest of us to legally ride how we want. BTW ghost pedalling IS exercise to some people.
@@ghz24 I have nothing against not pedalling and using throttle on an ebike...I am also a former motorcyclist and I also have nothing against however is enjoying any form of biking or motorcycling and I wish much more was done to make it safer. It's just a personal preference, that made almost every experience I had on hub motors/cadence sensors not so great. what I don't like about cadence sensors is that you have zero way to modulate the power, and the usually very slow on/off response. throttle can mitigate the problem by giving some control, and of course the "problem" of cadence sensors is not so bad when you have enough pedal assist levels, and you are cruising at constant speed on a flat trail with no intersections, and you can find a pedal assist level which is in the sweet spot that has good balance of speed/assist for you, or if you have a weak 250W 25kmh ebike that you will probably use at "full power" most of the time. It just makes any 500/750W cadence sensor ebike feel very unrefined.
on the other hand most mid drives are too expensive and also have disadvantages regarding shifting under load and drivetrain wear. I don't think it would hurt to see more hub motors coupled with torque sensors, at least as an option.
I think torque sensors is also better for safety when I see my daughter or my wife using a 65lbs with 500/750W, with a two second delay between you starting or stopping pedalling and the motor response, it makes low speed maneuvers very jerky especially if you are in a speed with tall gearing. unfortunately the same delay applies on the throttle. torque sensor fee more natural because you can modulate the power the same way you do on a regular bike, just as if you were 2x/3x as powerfull
@@geemy9675 I would likely like a torque sensor if it was selectable not one or the other.
They sound more controllable at low speeds more intuitive.
Cadence senors can kick in unexpectedly and definitely have a learning curve. Downshifting while slowing to a stop can be tricky till you get used to it.
I end up ghost pedaling a lot because I don't want to upshift just to downshift for the next stop signal.
I have one of the ones that wont let the throttle engage until it's moving already so being in a lower gear when stopping is crucial if you want to accelerate at a reasonable rate when starting again.
When I can go a ways without stopping I go to high gear and help it get up to top speed 28 mph.
The throttle is limited to 20 but ghost pedaling will getsbout 25 with no pushing just fast pedaling (which can be harder than pedaling with at least a little resistance).
It seems like there are lots of people that would like to mandate assisting with pedals.
I get a lot more exercise on my electric bike than I would on a non-electric one because I couldn't ride a normal bike in the terrain near me.
I mistook your post as wanting to take away options for others.
What I did with my ebike (chinese) with a built-in mid-drive is - I went into the settings menu and set the smoothest enabling PAS setting. So that when I start pedaling, the motor would increase it's torque gradually. That way there's no hitting the freewheel internally by the motor. My legs initiate a smooth hit on the freewheel as it's suppose to be naturally, and by that time the motor catches up with me and starts doing it's job. It's a 1/2 second action, but it's real practical for me as a rider and healthy for the bike's freewheel.
yeah i think it's a non issue
I wouldn't recommend using freewheels with mid drive conversions. Your problem isn't from a too powerful motor, it's from using too low quality of a rear hub. You should be using a proper cassette hub instead of a freewheel hub. Freewheel hubs were only designed for bio power. Major differences in quality between the two components. This is coming from a bike mechanic.
I don’t even understand why freewheels still exist for mainstream bikes, like in the modern mtb and road part of cycling you very rarely see a freewheel hub and not a cassette.
@@makncheese6836 they are cheap. I only use branded cassettes.
Hi, what type of e conversion kit would I need for a 20in fat tire trike with pedal assist? I live in an area with a lot of hills and it's impossible to pedal up.Thanks
@@msbuttercup2073 unless you are buying a trike specific conversion kit, then I would just recommend a simple hub drive motor in the front for simplicity reasons. However if you are loading the rack(s) with heavy items frequently, you might need more power than a hub motor can provide.
@@SugmaDLigmaNutz Ok, thank you!😉
I have a Maxon hub motor from Switzerland for many years now with zero problems and zero maintenance. Friends with mid-drive motors, even expensive ebikes like Specialized, seem to have a lot more problems. Another benefit of a hub motor is a lot less wear on the drive train. With a hub motor only your power is transmitted to the rear wheel, while with a mid-drive motor, your power in addition to motor power is transmitted via the drive train.
First thing I did on my DIY build, with the same CyC X1 Stealth mid-drive motor, was to upgrade my drivetrain to a Box Components Box 2 P9 X-Wide Single Shift E-Bike Groupset. Absolutely love the combination. Feels like it will climb a wall. Eats the mountains here in BC for breakfast. Throw in a 21Ah/52V battery from Electrifybike and I am good to go for long rides. Best thing about the rear cassette from Box is the ability to purchase the first 4 gears for $20. They are the ones to wear out the fastest since I am using those the most by far. You can switch 1 out or any combination up to 4 gears. I have over 3,500 km on it with the only problem being 4 broken spokes so far. Zero flats because I upgraded my tires to Continental Ride Tour Replacement - extra puncture protection, E-Bike rated tires. I just got the portable/folding 200watt solar panel from Electrifybike. It puts out up to 4 amps, depending on sunshine, and will allow me to go further, much further into the mountains. It comes with a very compact solar charge controller. I also got a spare battery mount and a very lightweight 500 watt inverter from the guys in Utah so I can take the battery off the bike and connect it to the inverter to charge my drone, phone, or laptop and do my video editing in the middle of nowhere. All fits neatly in one of my panniers with room to spare. Love the freedom. Money I have saved in gas alone has almost paid for the bike build. By the way I purchased a used 2012 Brodie Bandit hard tail gravel bike in excellent condition on Facebook Marketplace for only $220 US. That was what gave me the extra money to go with the Stealth and the larger battery.
Oh, oh oh I am dreaming and you are me that wrote your post, no wait a minute no I am not. My dream is your set up, Nice! I want to try box but the $$$$ without any feedback but now I feel ok to move forward from your experience and the 4 gears are a nice thing,sick of buying clusters for the one or two bottom gears. The solar panels in the sand where I am at are perfect combination to get to the beach spend the day charge up and ride home. Dear God bring me the cash for such luxuries.
Box are bomb proof, but saying this if you use the right teeth meching for the ebike chain for the right cassette and front meching on the front ring and use the middrive system as it suppose to be used by going up and down the gears us using a gear cut off sensor then you have no need for box. Componants but box are very very good, but lije I say, if you set the drive train up properly no need to get the box as because if you don't set up the drive train and chain line up properly even the box componants will fail
I have never had any cassette/hub problems with my Bosch mid drive after 5 years of daily riding. I like the mid drive flexibility to run 2 different sets of wheels with different gearing on each. I run 26x4" for off road, sand, snow and 27.5x3" for commuting. It's very easy to swap wheels and fix flats on a mid drive.
The Bosch is lower powered..
@@Bamboothought its still 750 and similar torque to fix i beliwbe
@@mackenziebullied4900 75 nm vs 160nm, you're no where close with those weak bosch motors
@@lIlIlIlIlIlIlIlIlI fair enough
@@lIlIlIlIlIlIlIlIlI Exactly, my bafang puts out 120 Newton Meters
Very interesting video, as I'm about to build a Bafang mid drive bike. Sorry I haven't read all the comments. the play in the hub you talk about is the time it takes the pawl/tooth inside the hub to go from 1 point of engagement to the other. Typically even on expensive hubs there are only 36 points of engagement through a complete revolution of the wheel/360 degrees, meaning there is 10 degrees of free play before the hub bites. I don't know about your particular mid drives but the Bafang's motor on pedal assist mode requires the rider to pedal half a turn before the motor engages. Meaning the torque from your legs takes up that free play in the hub before the motor kicks in, saving wear on the freehub. However in throttle only mode all the motor's torque is transferred straight to the hub and once the free play is taken up you'll likely hear a clunk as the pawl engages, particularly from a stand still but also while you're moving. If you can reprogram the motor to reduce the initial current this will help. Also bike hubs weren't designed for 1000 watt motors so if this free play and early wear on the hub is a problem then factor into your build a 100+ points of engagement hub like the Halo Superdrive with 120 points of engagement for less than $200.
....damn, you know your sh!t!! Thanks!
Higher end wheel with more pawls will fix the clunky issue as well as smooth out the power delivery. My 2 cents. 👍
what is pawl
@@BlackMamba-lt8oe They are the tiny levers that are spring activated like they are in socket wrenches. The pawls are what makes the clicking sound. They grab the grooved inner barrel of the freewheel as you peddle forward and create the increased clicking sound if you peddle backwards, or are coasting and not peddling. If you buy the more expensive freewheel there are more pawls and grooves in the inner barrel for them to grab onto with less play and are more of an efficient power transfer because they grab much sooner as soon as you first peddle forward. That's just my amateur view.
@@mwj5368 why do u have to replace them, just ride it as a fixie,
Hope pro 4 hubs is surprisingly clunky. But cheap and very repairable.
@@BlackMamba-lt8oe it would literally break your legs lol
Nice video, over here in the UK, I have fitted a front wheel electric motor hub drive , limited by UK law to only 250Watts power! I fitted it to my Marin full mountain bike with a Shimano 11 speed internal rear hub , instead of derailleur type sprockets! Although the front wheel hub motor is only 250 Watts, I have the benefit of a two wheel drive bicycle. Also I change can change gears to " help the motor out" on steep hills! An additional advantage of a front wheel hub motor drive is, that if my chain comes off, or breaks, I can still drive home using the front wheel on its
's own! A further advantage of this system, is that when off road, or in very muddy roads, I have twice as much traction with both wheels being powered! But being able to independently change gears to what the motor is doing, is very useful, and I can match the required effort of my legs, to the motor requirement to get up the steep hills in my area! Remember, at the end of a day, its still only a bicycle, and I ride it to get my daily cardio, so having a more powerful motor defeats the object! If I want to go fast or not pedal at all, I have my BMW R Nine T Scrambler motor bike, with 1200cc and 115 HP! if you get the point! Nice video ! take care on the roads over there!
The gibberish you just wrote would be a lot more sufferable if you didn't use an exclamation mark on every sentence.
At 69 I'm still peddling the bike myself, and the 1.1HP peak of me is long gone in the past. Just got a frame today to try adding electric assist to, so your posting is both timely and very much appreciated. Be safe our there!
Now you’re 1 catpower
@@frosty129 Good one! Although the estimate might be a trifle low with two Siamese cats in the house, grin.
That play you talked about is from lugging down the motor.. That can be eliminated by putting on a smaller chainring, that will cause the mid-drive spin faster, which also keeps the motor cooler and gives more torque. If you have your gears too high and not enough power (level) being delivered that sucks of your power and lowers your range. Try a smaller sprocket, i use a 36 N/W chainring.. And listen to the motor to keep it spinning fast, it seems counter intuitive but that will increase your range.. I have ridden over 15k miles in 4 years.. It took a lot of trial and error to figure out the sweet spot for Gear to Power ratio to increase range. It's all math.
Thank you for your hypothesis and your description is second to none. Keep up the great work. You always bring valuable information to the table.
I live in the Appalachians, I go up large mountains all the time. A mid Drive motor is absolutely essential if you're going to be going up steep hills. A 750w rear Hub drive compared to my bafang bbs02 750 watt mid Drive.. is no comparison at all! The only way the Hub Drive motor makes sense is if you don't have any major Hills to climb. Because unlike the mid drive, you can't re-gear the motor using the drivetrain. There's one Hill in particular here that has a 34% grade and my mid Drive goes right up at 14mph in elec gear 9 mech gear 2. I can do 39 mph on the flat in elec gear 9 and mech gear 8. I have it set up that the motor barely assist me and just makes it a lil easier to pedal in elec 1 and 2. You can program the mid drive to your liking. Each gear is individually programmable. You won't be able to do that wide a variety of riding with a single geared hub motor. Well, you Could but you'd have to run say a 2000w or 3000w motor and say, double the battery size to compensate. Even then, it wouldn't be as good. The largest problem with mid-drives is people that don't know what they're doing try to mount them to a low quality bicycle. It can wear out the driveline components on a cheap bike. If you need to ASK someone if the bike that you have is "too cheap" for a mid drive motorization.. then you don't know enough about bikes to build a mid Drive to begin with!
I put my mid drive on a 1990’s free trek bike. Over 3000 miles with no issues , except flat tires. Under $750 build with the bafang 750. Great power and acceleration
I totally agree with you. Middrive are far superior than hub or hub geared ebikes they had so much more torque. But people have don't ride middrive ebikes correctly, they just ram it in top gear top PA and thrash it everywhere and when after 50p miles they start hearing bad sounds coming from the middrive they then come on social media to slag off middrive, because they ignorant. Middrive ebikes are totally different when it comes to riding them from a hub drives, gears must be used in low when starting from stand still or low gear and high PA on climbing hills. Basically mids have to be ridden lije driving a car through its gears, you cannot start a car from stand still in 3rd or 4th, well it's same with middrive, yes it will start but putting tremdouse load on the middrive and keep doing this and it won't last longbut as long as middrive are set up properly with good chain lines and the proper ebike chain that will Mech properly with the correct teeth on both rear cassette and front ring and using the gears as they should be ridden then all this thing about the guy talking about the gap between the bite of the pedaling through the freehub or in America they say freewheel will not matter what so ever. I just think this video is a middrive bashing video looking for problems I stead of using common sense to show there no problems in using a middrive. Maintainance also is a must do regularly with middrive, either regressing between 500 or 1000 miles which let's be honest is a 30 to 45 minute job if that. Middrive are just far superior to hub drive in every way if you do the right thing with them by setting it up properly and using middrive cut out gear switch or rake cut outs can achieve the same thing and not cross using drive train chain rings and cassette and ebike chains. With ebikes best to keep too either shram drive train through out or shimano through out then finding the correct ebike chain becomes alot more easier to find the correct meching when changing gears, and getting chain line correct and using whole of the cassette at the back when stop starting on a fast run building up or going up to a high gear through the gears. Basically riding a middrive is totally different when using a hub drive, there alot more too using a middrive but you do get alot more out of a middrive if used correctly and set up correctly. Hub or geared hubs are for lazy riders
@@neilcopeland4411 most intelligent reply I've ever received
I have a 1500 watt rear hub kit that loses traction instantly under acceleration on bitumen, and will power wheelie on demand while going 40-60kph. If that motor was powering a typical mid drive chain it would snap instantly. People saying mid drives have more torque is just plain BS.
Who really wants to go slowly up a hill, and need to back off the acceleration just to change gearing, losing momentum just to avoid snapping and twisting your derailleur (lol mid drives) my rear hub motor power slides off road and throws roost Like a MX bike
@@Billy-burner they not suppose to be used doing wheelies and as for the backing off, the gear or break sensor is momentarily for split second engaged, just like a clutch does on a motorbike or car, I think you clutching at straws to explain your side off the argument, plus the torque argument, what you talking about, the figures don't lie when it comes to the actual torque.The middrive is places in the most accurate place on the bike to gain the torque, just like a motorbike with the engine in the middle with the chain being the method to release the power of the engine too the rear. Have you seen many motorbikes with rear hub engined propulsion?, I not. Plus I think these huge hub motors look so unsightly and are easily seen by the you know who who like to get you stopped and the bike crushed where as a middrive is a little more discreet to the eye.
I would think solving the gear ratio problem with a larger front chainring could also help with the excessive torque on the freewheel, by increasing the leverage at the pedals. Freewheel are cheap and are easily messed up by a powerful rider on a regular bike so I definitely think it would resolve it for sure. I think mid-drive with an actual modern mountain bike rear hub could solve that as many of them have much better engagement. And are definitely a lot stronger then any freewheel
exactly what i was going to say try a chainring around 56 tooth this would put you in a larger sprocket in the back giving less chance of slip too if you think a 56 sounds too large i was riding mtbs with 56 tooth chainring back in the 90s and it was the better way .these pathetically geared bikes are embarrassing tbh .we used the call the front small chainrinring granny gears and never used them
Think about how your legs would feel if you started with thr largest ring at the pedals. Every hill you'd be struggling.
A good free hub and cassette helps a lot. A cheap freewheel will eventually come apart with a moderately powerful mid drive. Turning down your start current(soft start) helps as well
bro explain in simple English
The problem is that you have people building 1500 watt ebikes who don’t know the difference between a freewheel and a cassette.
@@dant.6364 there is a free wheel inside a cassette, but your comment nis top
@@BlackMamba-lt8oe I think you mean that there is a free hub in a cassette.
Both freewheels and cassettes have freehubs.
Recently upgraded my Cannondale hybrid road bike with a Bafang BBS02, which has a cadence sensor. Although it is not as smooth as a torque sensor bike I tried, I am still very happy with it. I left throttle off as I wanted to pedal when moving, and the motor addition is a real game changer for my aging knees when facing hills and headwinds - I live near the Rockies. And I haven't really found that I need to pedal overly fast to cruise with the motor running.
I've had my bafang bbso2b about 2 years now, I did the conversion myself, if I say it myself " it's very neat (hidden wires) it's a brilliant piece of kit, I've done miles on it, I love it 👍😁
the BBS02 and BBSHD don't have a torque sensor at all so it'll just keep putting the max power from the pas setting
I have ridden a few thousand kilometers on my 750 watt Tongshen Tsdz2 mid drive. The issues you mention I would not have thought of. The only issue I have with the mid drive is breaking a chain - because you have no way to pedal the bike like with a hub motor. The Tsdz2 is a very smooth motor and has four levels of PAS. It is important to shift to lower gears on startup and to choose the best PAS option. I have an 800 watt battery and there is no hill that presents a problem. The MTB drive train is not designed for propulsion that is the equivalent of the strength of three persons. If the power is abused the drive train will wear out prematurely. If I use the second level of PAS I can get 60 miles out of the battery for about 10 cents of electricity. It was a mistake to have such a heavy 48 volt battery but I never run out of power. I own both the Tsdz2 mid drive and two 300 watt hub drive ebikes and find both drive systems have merit. The less powerful hub motors do not tax the sprockets and chain like the mid drive. There is a great risk of addiction to 750 or 1000 watts and the speed that comes with that energy.
i'm running my Tsdz2 500W on a 625Wh 48V battery, i have no issue with battery weight myself, neither have i ever have anything break yet, 2000km on my motor and chain, everything still stock
i very often hammer hard on it, i weigh way more than i care to admit and stomp on my pedals, 42T with 7S DNP 11T freewheel, my top speed with it is about 40km/h and on strong uphill i stomp on the pedals to go atleast 25km/h without a retarded cadence
i run a KMC E8 chain though, 7-8 speed and optimized for ebikes so it doesn't hurt to have quite a sick amount of torque
to remove my old freewheel (didn't go fast enough to my liking with a 14T one) i actually had to buy a 30cm wrench and still stomp on the wrench with my feet, i couldn't get it off with a 15cm one, not even with weight, so i'm sure it had quite a ton of torque on it, lol.
My dad bought me a dirt bike converted to pedals and now I’m trying to convert it back to a motor, electric of course. This video gave me relief, now knowing it’s a good thing my back wheel gear is bolted on. Also love the videos :)
BBS02 paired with a Rohloff speed hub, 10.000 miles without any issues.
Change gear while at a standstill which is very useful.
$1200 plus?!! WTF🤯
that sounds amazing
Idk. You can buy a lot of chains and cassettes for $1400.
The Bafang can be programed to reduce that initial "Kick"
I found that Tong sheng Tsdz2 mid drive 750watt is great, installed on a duel suspension MTB done 3000 ks I replaced the blue gear(32 aus dollars) at 2000ks to find little wear. Also the drive chain doesn't seem to stretch as much as you'd expect. The pedal assist is smooth no spinning. I had the display in recent times cut out. I suspect it maybe condensation. (East coast Australia has had continuous rain for months!)But if I reboot it's all good. I also found that I can pedal just fine with unit off. I mainly ride in "Tour" mode which is 2nd egear. On hills if tired I put up to "Speed" 3rd egear flys up the hill super smooth, and I still have Turbo 4th egear. I have 52volt 13amhr triangle battery that's made to fit my medium size frame. All the weight is where you want it! Centre of gravity is between your legs.The first time I rode on MTB Trails it felt natural just faster and easier. Range in 2nd gear 140ks! The motor and battery cost 1100 au dollars. Bought from Alibaba in 2018.
I just installed the same kit on my road bike, but with a smaller "shark" battery. I didn't want too much assist, just enough to maintain my avg speed while commuting over a big hill. The "Tour" setting is just right for me, but installed a throttle in case things get hairy. Altogether I spent just under $700 USD through eBay, plus took the opportunity to put in new cables and a new chain.
Only problem I had has been documented multiple times, is that if you have your rear cables running under the bottom bracket, you'll have to modify the plastic guide or somehow reroute your cables so there's enough room for the motor to slide on. There's only a couple mm of clearance.
i installed my tsdz2 500W in February this year, i've already got 2000km on it, while i haven't used it as much recently cuz of heat and rain, i run mine in turbo pmuch all the time cuz i cant bother riding uphill under 20km/h, and if the motor can't do it i stomp on the pedals upright, cuz i hate slow speeds
ebike rules are so dumb, people with a 25km/h moped/scooter can ride strong gradients at 25km/h cuz 50cc engines can have abt 4kW
if they limit ebikes to such a low value it's logical people pick the moped as they're a fuckton cheaper than storebought decent ebikes, and thank god no manufacturer actually limits their motor to 250W, that would suck dick uphill, the Power Line CX "250W" motors actually peak at over 650W so the rules are a joke, some shitty way to keep people buying overpriced crap proprietary shit from manufacturers..
on the other hand a 3kW ebike would be dangerous if the PAS isn't torque sensing, so i feel there should be a class 25km/h up to 3kw, no certificate of conformity and other bullshit, but mandatory torque sensing or something, so shit wont throw an uncontrollable wheelie instantly lol
I have a lower power front direct drive with hardcore torque arms and love it. Drive train issues out of the question. Perfect conversion for me. Chain can break and fall off and I can still get home.
Why did you pick direct drive over geared hubs?
I carry a spare chain
@@ghz24 direct drives have the most durability, lowest maintenance, silent and easiest to setup regenerative braking.
@@tomfuller4205 Why bother with the extra hassle?
@@sammiller6631 Chains break so I carry a quick connect KMC.
In the UK we are not allowed to have throttles and you will make no progress if you don't peddle. The best way to avoid stress on the rear hub is to be in the same gear ratio as if were on a bike. I tend to move the power button up and down depending on the terrain. I basically want to cycle as much as possible and just use full power for pesky hills.
Uk needs some freedom
I've got a throttle anyway, never had any issues riding it.
It's an EU law too
I'm a boomer, former mountain biker, and owner of a manual transmission automobile. I noticed you didn't shift much, if at all. IMHO, most of the mid-drive issues you brought up can be mitigated by using proper shifting technique. Even though motoring + pedaling produces more torque, you need to downshift when coming to a stop, and upshift when increasing speed. This increases efficiency AND reduces wear & tear on the motor & components.
I have over 10'000miles on my bbshd I absolutely beat the crap out it and has given me no problems . I still have the original rear cassette only had to replace the chain once.you just have to get used to the way they operate by far better than a hub motor on hills and performance.!
Me too. BBSHD...just received another build kit yesterday, can't be beat performance for money and very reliable.
Any re-grease?
@@shapan0ipoly once a year with mobile 21.super easy to do just a couple minutes.
@@shapan0ipoly Truthfully its optional at even 5K miles. The grease that is in the motor new, both primary and secondary which btw is a different kind of grease for each, doesn't really disappear.
But...the secondary as Joe said is easy.
Remove the right crank and chainring and outer casing and you have access. Seal is generally reusable. Mobil 28 is preferred.
Will be dosing the current build - BBS-HD - with Mobil-28 grease prior to putting it in the frame. Did that with the earlier build.
I came for the motor info, stayed for the ride in NJ. I hadn't been back east in over 2 decades. I really miss home. Thanx for the memories 😎
I built a cargo trike that uses a hub motor to drive the rear axle through a chain . I played with the side gears and found running a 1.25 reduction was the best bang for the buck battery wise. It is extra weight, but the motor is happier hauling loads at a higher rpm, using slightly less watts given the same speed. If a middrive motor was turned around with a left side hub, and gear output, you could bolt a larger gear on the rear wheel at the disk brake mount and you might get better range letting the motor run at its most efficient speed.
Yes, electric motors do make torque from zero rpms, but most have a more efficient speed that they should be turning at. If you compare high end drives to the cheapos most of us run, there is a big difference in power used at lower speeds. Most cheap motors are more efficient at much higher speed than they are used for.
Could you put a second hub on the other wheel and get more power and speed?
As a noob in 2022 I build my first e-bike Trek 4500 26" Bafang BBSO2 750w dual 48v-30ah batteries. We live in Hunterdon County NJ where there is mostly hills. The stock 44T chainring and the 8 sp 16/46 freewheel started to overheat the motor. Finally I got the right gear ratio using the Lekkie 28T and 16/46 freewheel. No more ghost pedaling but I still feel and hear clunk if I start off in a high gear but I immediately shift down.
2 years and no problems BBS02 I had to beef up the mounting so it didn't rotate. highly recommend mid drive, As with most things the installation is everything.
At 4:50: "I'm sitting at 50.7% so just over... what, 60% battery." It might be fair to round 57% up to 60%, but 50.7% is less than 51%, so you're lucky you had some downhill on the way home.
I blew the CYC Stealth clutch at the chainring on the first day I had it. The pawl based clutch wasn't up to the force being applied by the motor, and turned into metal mince. I then replaced it with the Freewheel 2.0, which is a sprag clutch - and proceeded to invert the sprags a month later (I apply quite a lot of force to my pedals).
Once the clutch problems are refined, I think it'll be a winner, but at the moment I have concerns, which don't exist on a hub-based bike. (I also own a bike with a Bafang G020.500.D front motor.)
Thank you for this, I will also talk to them about the Freewheel 2.0 springs because that was my first question: which version was the person in the video using?
When I discuss specs with the Cyc people (and they do email back promptly) I am always aware of the differences between gas/electric power plants and the drivetrain considerations necessary - so I already had the FW2 on my current quote. If you're going to buy up to the Pro from Stealth then spend the extra few bucks for the improved components suggested for it.
Just getting into ebikes with first build on 48v 1500w hub drive and lipos. 40mph seems fast enough! Enjoyed this! Subbed!
I prefer my “barely” bike; a 250W mid-drive which barely assists me. To get help, I gotta pedal like I mean it. Works great for single and double track mountain bike trails and ranch roads I use it for. Feels like me 20 years ago, rather than some motor pushing me around. I have a motorcycle if I want to get pushed/pulled around.
That’s all I want… to ride like I used to 😅
At 62, that's all I want to accomplish too.
I own a couple of 30 year old Trek hybrids.
I not only don't know which bike I will convert.....I don't know what system to install.
Was looking at mid-drive for sure.
Another big benefit of the hub motor is not having to replace the chain in the field. Chain pops. Take if off, put it away, throttle your way home.
Your comments about mid drives may mostly be related to the CYC drive that you used. The CYC is at the high end of watts and torque. But it was run thru a low end drivetrain. I haven't gotten to try a CYC so I don't know about its smoothness of control either. I've ridden Shimano, Bosch, and Bafang though. Shimano was butter smooth, felt very natural and connected to legs. Assist seemed pretty linear of pedal torque vs motor output. Bosch was very similar but felt a little more exponential motor output vs pedal torque. I have BBSHD in old Trek. It feels a little less smooth and makes more noise than my buddy's Shimano. But the Bafang is definitely faster, especially up a hill. Haven't had cadence issues with the mid drives I have ridden. They have all done a good job at interpreting my leg inputs. Maybe the CYC is overboosting output vs input in order to "feel" extra fast and causing the cadence problem. Your observations were good about your CYC experience in a bargain bike. But those observations don't really carry over to mid drives in general.
I may have replied to NPL as requested but probably not because I seem to lack telegram competency lol. I'd swear that I saw my reply on here but it is gone now. Hope the telegram stuff doesn't still have to be done in Morse code.
And this is exactly why I prefer my rear hub motor. I can balance the effort to power ratio perfectly so I can actually put in reasonable effort and get much further plus more effectively burn much more fat while still having all the power I need on tap for if I need it.
I could go on and on and on about why I think rear hub motors are far superior in almost every way. But I won't bore anyone.
(I own both)
Actually, all of the motorcycles I have owned have a "Cush Drive: rear wheel. The sprocket has a separate carrier that the sprocket bolts to. There are rubber blocks sand-wedge between the sprocket carrier and the rear wheel itself. The Cush helps when throttle action takes up the slack in the chain and also damps shocks from the road surface transferring to the gearbox. (see at 10:28 ua-cam.com/video/pNze9nAaxZY/v-deo.html )
Your motorcycles play golf! I'd advise them to stay out of the bunkers, thus being less reliant on the sand-wedge.
They could however get to the club house and stack their snacks so they are sandwiched together 🤣.
Street bikes do have cush drives, but dirt bikes do not. Mainly because dirt bikes are designed to be ridden on loose surfaces where there is at least a little bit of slippage, which acts as the cushioning for the transmission.
@@trevorjameson3213 point taken, thanks. 👌
Mine has them in the clutch on my WR
@@trevorjameson3213 Fyi, that's why when people "dual sport" their dirt bike it's advantageous to opt for a cush hub to save front sprocket splines and transmission.
3:52
One of the biggest problems is I don’t care what you’re running. If you try to run super hot through cheap wheels on speaker you’re going to break things more power equals more problems build a bike that has good components they won’t break. 😊
I've done a lot of conversations over the years, front and rear geared and direct drive as well as mid drives. CYC C1 Stealth is in my opinion the best conversation kit on the market today, excellent built quality and exceptional performance.
It's not cheapest but sometimes you get what you pay for.
My advice is always use a good quality cassette.
If you are on a limited budget, check out the Tongsheng TSDZ2, the performance is adequate for a lot of people, it like the CYC is easy to install and it won't break the bank. 😉
BBSHD vs CYC? Combined w a 72v, purpose of attempting food delivery
@@andreeneliko CYC😉
another commenter who understands the difference between a FEEWHEEL & a CASSETTE with a FREEHUB... unlike the clown who made this video🤣
Thanks for the video, You guys in the States are so lucky with the power levels allowed, here in "Little Britain" we're limited to 15.5 mph , no throttle ( on bikes made after 2015) and max power of 250W. I've just changed from a Bafang 250W to a Shimano Steps, which feels a lot more natural, but there's definitely a sweet spot between the cadence and the speed.
Good point about the rear freewheel weakness, though with 250W probably no bother here. Perhaps the answer is the new"Pinion" mid drive with built in 12 speed gearbox and belt drive, looks awesome
Appreciate your input, but I've been riding a BBS02-equipped hardtail off road for seven years without incidents like described. Perhaps a more robust platform would have been better for you.
The part that failed was the cassette that came with the hub motor lol
@@ayoutubewatcher7009
Really good point!! 🤣
@@ayoutubewatcher7009 True! Minor note: it was a cheap freewheel not a cassette.
Damn! Thought I was old school at 5 years. I started with an HD. My 2nd build was with an 02. Turns out the 02 is a seriously robust motor if you use the gears properly. BBS02 is the best bang for the buck motor for sure.
Most people don't stop to think you use cheap parts things are going to break. And if you are not good at this you will break stuff too.
My Trek with the Bosch didn't have either of the issues described. I think it has a clutch in the motor, and it's power assist didn't require me to peddle fast.
Your combination of a powerful CYC middrive pulling on a rear wheel with heavy hub motor is likely what broke the pawls in the freewheel. The issue is not the "freeplay" when the pawls engage. All cassettes and freewheels have this "freeplay" (some that reduce this by having many more smaller pawls are even more fragile). The issue is the indiscriminately sudden and powerful application of torque (too heavy handed throttle) by the mid-drive motor upon a drive train designed for human power. Us mid-drive riders (I'm using a Cyclone 3,000 watt 52v 20ah, and a BBS02, same battery both on 700c wheel 13-32 rear cassette), have to learn to shift using only pedaling, to install gear sensor cutoffs, and to not do WOT until your drive train is already engaged and are already under way (over 10 mph)..
Yes our mid-drives usually thrive at gear ratios that would have us spinning out pedalling. But it's still up to us to use the right PAS levels and correctly selected gear ratios to allow us to pedal along with the motor to both gain back range, and to get exercise. That's one of the main points of any mid-drive setup.
That sounds overly complex. Hub drives are much more simple and easy to use.
@@sammiller6631 ah yes dont put two motors on a street bicycle and then slam the throttle to max speed from zero. Far too complicated to understand. What did he do wrong that could have broken an aluminum bycicle rated for 1/4 a horsepower?
I live in Jacksonville Florida. I’ve owned both. I kind of miss my hub…but I’m not on a 1000w bafang mid drive attached to an 8 speed gravity gsx mountain bike.
Trying to figure out when I need to change gears at this point.
My hub was a lot faster.
A third issue with mid drives is if the chain breaks your walking unless you have the parts and tools to make a roadside repair.
Isn't that the case even if your bicycle isn't an Ebike.
@@iamrocketray not of it's a front or rear hub ebike, only a mid-drive. Front or rear hub motor bikes can move without a chain. The motor is in the wheel so it rotates the wheel, chain is not needed in any way.
Since bafang motors generally have a pedal sensor, which is more like a rotational motion sensor, you don’t need a chain. You just need to rotate the pedals. You can of course fit a throttle as well as pedal sensors. So it is not true to say that all mid drive motors can’t be ridden home with a broken chain.
@@roughrider9831 Dude, a mid drive motor turns the front crank and nothing else, that spinning without a chain will get you know where, trust me. A rear or front hub motor then yes the wheels will turn and no chain is needed but on a mid drive? not a chance in hell without a chain.
@@iamrocketray not a problem on a hub drive
I was just about to buy a Bafang Mid Drive motor kit. So are you saying I should only mount it to a bike with 1 gear/sprocket?
Your first issue is due to low quality freewheel\freehub, and your second is your expectations. If you want a powerful middrive (that doesn't instantly break parts), the rpm has to be high (power is torque x speed, and torque must be limited for a mid drive) You can still use it at comfortable cadence's, but the power output will be somewhat limited. If you want monster power at human cadence's, you need to go hubmotor.
Having that massive hub motor on at the same time as your middrive is a issue as well....unless your running dual controllers and powering them both.
I just got my x1 gen2 on today, and so far i love it. I can pedal along at up to 30km\h (which is the legal limit here, and tbh about as fast as i want to go anyway) and the throttle is sublime with the BAC 855. Even with my crappy freehub, the power engagement is smooth.
My previous kit (cyclone 3000) is a total piece of junk in comparison. It probably could have been fixed with a ASI controller, but i couldn't find any solid guides on how to set one up with it, and tons of complaints that the hall sensors didn't work.
You bring up some very good points. The pawls are what causes the gaps or delays in pedaling. The higher end brands hubs will have more pawls and hence less gaps and chance for chain breakage and that snap on shifting.
I think a Rolhoff hub could work well with a mid drive motor. No shifting, no worrying about chainline. Just need to make sure chain tension is properly maintained. The chain set up is like a single-speed bike.
Anyone out there use a Rolhoff hub on a mid drive motor?
If using bafang midrive all you have to do is put a gear changing sensor on it around $30 and problems of chain breaking goes as cuts out the motor momentarily when changing gear, can also use the brake sensors to stop the motor as changing gear. But if you get chain lines correct and set up a middrive correct by using the correct ebike chain with the correct teeth meching on the front ring and rear cassette then middrive are perfect and always using the gearing on the back changing from low too high from stand still and stop putting in high gear and high pedal assist when starting from stand still as this puts astronomical strain on thd motor. Middrive are meant to be ridden like driving a car or motorcycle, using the gears. Riding s hub driven bike from riding a middrive ebike are miles apart different but people are either ignorant too this. But ridden and set up properly middrive are so so far suowrior than hub or hub geared ebikes
It seems to me that mid drive, torque sensor motors are best suited for actual mountain biking
I'm a total noob to e-bikes (research stage, not even shopping yet) and this video is very valuable for me because other videos said mid-drive e-bikes are better because they couple the operator's effort and pedaling rpm with the motor's effort and rpm, so it's supposed to feel like the motor works hard when you do. NPL Ventures, your experience with this mid-drive motor actually teaches me the opposite, which is valuable. Your experience in having to pedal furiously at low felt torque to "keep up" with the motor's pedal assist at high settings actually mirrors the experience I had on a rented hub-drive e-bike yesterday. I didn't like that, at high speeds with pedal assist, I had to pedal furiously with virtually no felt resistance/torque. The bike I rode yesterday had, I believe, only 4 settings for pedal assist, so maybe this experience improves on both hub-drive and mid-drive bikes that have more pedal assist settings or virtual "gears." Can anyone comment on that?
Get a bbshd mid drive. this guy is a clown. You can build a good bike with the right gearing and program the motor to work the way you want it to. None of that is possible with a hub motor. and forget big hills or hauling anything with a hub motor. It will kill your battery and youll still be doing most the work
bbshd have the option for 9 PAS settings
I have ridden a mid drive, but the hub motor for me is plenty. I see no issue whatsoever on a hub drive going up hills, or having to battle with the motor while peddling which I peddle constantly. If the hub is not trash it is wonderful to drive. And if something were to occur you can go to countless shops to have it fixed within minutes. Also it is true if your chain drive is destroyed somehow on a mid drive good luck on walking it however miles away you are form home over bridges, highways etc 😧
A chain is simple enough to have a spare and carry the tools for a roadside change. I'm 45 and finally changed one for the first time today and I can't believe I've avoided doing it for so long. You can be back on rhe road in 5 minutes.
@@sandmanxo exactly! It doesn't take up much space in a saddle bag. It's all about being prepared. No big deal once you've got that mindset.
My guess is you're in a fairly flat area. NYC is supposed to be flat but I live on a very steep hill. I have yet to see a street legal hub drive ridden up my hill. Even delivery riders get off and walk. Meanwhile my 750 watt BBS02 climbs (slowly) up the hill without issue (with the throttle alone if I kept it installed).
A spare chain is cheap and easy to carry (as are tools). I'd rather carry 1 spare chain and fix it on the fly than carry a whole bunch of spokes for a hub drive to fix on the fly.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 If that is the situation then it is a necessity to utilize a mid drive. I believe a hub drive is for the majority of people who think they need a mid drive for small, medium, and even big hills. If where you live is nothing but up & down then a mid drive is a proper utilization, but some think hub driven bicycle may not have strength to power up with, or without peddling, and that simply is not true. Also outright destroying a drive train is not simply popping in a different chain.there is no remedy for that, but to see a bike mechanic. Hub driven bicycles are not limited by even having a chain drive at all which is a life saver if it comes down to that somehow.
@@buffalomind6838 True, most people are better served by a hub.
Problem for me was it didn't feel like riding an analogue bicycle with a hub drive. I feel like I can dial in the power and gearing with a mid-drive so it still feels like I'm putting in effort but my motor can climb hills without my help if necessary.
My primary reasons for wanting a mid-drive were the extra torque (even if only used occasionally) but also that the bicycle is easier to wrench on or fit in a car.
I don't actually live in a hilly area (NYC) just on a steep hill. That one hill means no matter how easy my ride I come home to a steep climb. When I say steep, I mean cars without snow tires slide down while trying to drive up in snow.
I have never destroyed an entire drivetrain. In thousands of miles split over 2 bikes I have broken 1 chain over more than a 5 year span and worn the top gear of a cassette but the other 9 are still fine (both problems on the same bike).
When I did my 1st build local bike shops shunned e-bikes. Even today they curse having to change the tire on a hub drive.
Yes being able to throttle home without a human powered drivetrain is definitely nice. Fortunately I can fix most my problems on the fly now so that necessity hasn't come up.
I don't say mid-drives are for everyone. I do say they have superior climbing ability in class 1, 2 or 3 e-bikes though.
You are right about sharing the final drive with humans and motor. It is a weak link as 'evolution' of bicycling dictates as light as possible all components for humans. However with good chain gearing selection I do not think the freewheel/freehub slack is the big problem, maybe cutting power for shifts, peddle to make the shift, then use the throttle. It would help. Long term a 2ndary drive strong system like on Sur-Ron might be a solution here.
The gearing for you is "out", not matched, for linking to the motor. Many mid-drives eliminate this problem with a gear box built into the motor to match where both you and motor are efficient (Like the Cyclone motors). The chain drive from motor to cranks can be altered too to help here. And I would just use the throttle control to also help here (get that sensor circuit out of the mix!).
Your drive in the wheel is geared! to help with this problem which is why that works so well. An advantage of mid-drive is keeping the weight in the center of the bike and not having it 'unsprung' in the wheel. I unfortunately didn't realize all the benefits that I could have, as I built my e-bike on a rigid frame! Should have used a full suspension frame! Used a Cyclone motor from Luna (discontinued).
I did have a problem with corrosion in one 'sealed' bearing as water and salt got in there and overloaded the system.
I am going 25+ miles per charge on a Bafang BBS02 Mid-drive with a 48V-17.5AH battery. The freewheel is locked out like a fixed gear and replaced with a single 14T rear sprocket. The motor has its own built in freewheel, so I didn't need 2 and a 52T front sprocket.
How do you cope with hill climbs without putting to much strain on your motor?
@@michaelsMW2movies a bbs02 geared 52T / 14T would be struggling at best
@@michaelsMW2movies So far it is doing just fine. All of my e-bikes are single speed, just this one is currently the fastest. I am building a bike with a 3000W hub motor that I hope will be a bit faster a 60 mile range by using a 72V 40AH battery. Using a 60T front sprocket and a 16 rear.
@@EBikeBuilder_ Actually it isn't. In level 1, I am getting up hills at 18mph and level 2 gives me 22mph up the hills. This bike is set up for pedal assist only, I don't use throttle.
@@JoeBManco That is awesome. You must have legs like tree trunks. I'm using motors because I'm 55 and need the help as well as the gears. I'm not hitting anywhere near the speeds you are on hills but it's nice to know that with my lower gearing and speed I'm not taxing my 02 in the slightest.
Is the answer to have a full shaft drive and get rid of chains and derrailleurs?
Tired of trying to find 13 t freewheel so I got a 52 t chain ring for my bafang mid drive. I’ve found my sweet spot. And I’m not peddling like crazy to keep up. Only thing is, my range is reduced slightly. 👍🏽
I have a 52 tooth blingring on the chainring, it helps keep the selected gear in the higher tooth count gear on the cassette, meaning the torque is distributed to more teeth, hopefully enabling longer service life & no chain jumping so far.
I own a bbshd and my only issue is I have broken 3 freewheels in 2 years. Breaks the teeth I even start off in the 32t freewheel cog and shift down to the 11t gradually. But after some long rides teeth start breaking and it sucks. Guess it's just part of the power it gives out.
🤣 I know one day I will see you on a Surron hitting trails and jumps not peddling at all, keep on grinding homie
I tried a lot of hub drives before I decided to buy the mid drive. I felt the exact way you did about how I couldn’t pedal after a certain point but only with hub drive. After owning a mid drive for awhile now, my conclusions are that if I ride it like I value my chain and cassette (which I do) then I have to deal with the lack of resistance at times when I want to pedal assist as a trade off and that I’d be dealing with that with hub drives too because I did.
I think the answer is that there hasn’t been an e bike produced yet that gets it quite right- I can’t wait for the day it does happen though.
Hub drives can be a drag; the motor makes the back end heavy; if you have a hard tail; then the bike hurts if you go over a bump unexpectedly! ouch; get a shocked seat post at least! The newer mid-drive motors from Bafang have a motor cut-out switch for 2022-23 models that will cut out motor power during shifts (amazing) and it works great. I have a Accomile Cola Bear with a 750w motor and it has the cut-out; there are never any issues with power on the chain, and the chain does not fall off due to power on during shifting. This motor is inexpensive compared to all the other motors out there, and a better design too; better than Bosch now! Forget belts, and forget the issues usually associated with Mid-drives. My Cola Bear climbs hills like a Bear; very fast.
that CLUNK that happens when the motor kicks in is not as bad with pedaling and PAS, when your pedaling engages the freewheel before the motor kicks in. With BBSHD you can program the "start current" so it ramps up to full power in a more gentle way. That also helps with the terrible clunk on the freewheel to some extent. It's also how people use the BBSHD with more fragile IGH without breaking the internals
Ssshhh. If you don't repeat the mantra that hub drives are evil, I will lose some of my good mid-drive customers that I can count on for chain and freewheel replacements on a routine basis.
Bottom line - bicycle drivetrains that were engineered for human power wear more when they are subjected to human plus electric power. There's no getting around those physics, and without completely reengineering chains and freewheels and internally geared hubs, I'm going to continue doing pretty good business replacing driveline components for mid-drive customers.
This isn't unique to mid-drives, by the way. Top athletes also go through driveline components far faster than the average bicyclist, because they just put more power to those components.
I have both mid drive bikes and direct drive rear hubs.
There are pros and cons with both systems.
The cheap rear hub kit (48v 1000w direct drive) I installed on our Burley tandem bike is pretty awesome, since it doesn't stress the drivetrain. The ugly side of this is the cheap controller with cheap parts and poor firmware. Admittedly, the controller is taxed by the load, esp during long climbs. I really wish the electronics were higher quality and the controller had better, upgradeable firmware. I'd like to buy a quality controlIer with firmware that can be adjusted, but I haven't found anything so far. The worst part of the cheap system was the wheel. The hub motor puts a lot of stress on the spokes. I was breaking spokes every time we went out, but the cure was a set of stainless spokes that are holding up very well. Not one broken spoke in 2000 miles. The hub motor is also very heavy.
The mid drive I have is great, delivers a lot of power, is of good quality with good, upgradeable firmware, but it is definitely stressing the chain drive system. It is a 1000W 48v Bafang system, mounted on a Voodoo 29er. I probably should have gone for a lower power system, But I'm a victim of "Tool Time". More power!!
Another benefit of the mid drive is that It is a lot lighter than the hub system.
The ideal would be middrive with a rear sealed hub shifter instead of a derailer cassette settup.
I agree, but not many affordable IGH’s for fat tire bikes.
I just ran across this "$199 Shimano Alfine Internal Gear Bicycle Hubs" it's an 8 speed, There's also an 11 speed for $399.
I am of such an age and origin that 3-speed hubs were the only real gears around, (fancy was a 3-speed deraileur from France!). And those hub are NOT strong compared to a Mountain bike deraileur setup. That is why the first mountain bikers shifted out of using internal hubs.
The issue regarding too high cadence for optimal power output is something I don't really understand. I have a BBS02 and one of my issues with it is that if I pedal with a really high rpm (going up on steep hills) it simply can't keep up with my pedaling speed. I find the BBSHD much better in this regard, that has a higher max rpm. I don't really understand why would someone want to pedal that much slower, to effectively compromise motor efficiency. Those low kind of pedaling cadences are surely not good for your knees, or any of the drivetrain components.
I think your issue #2 was caused by the cheap Mountain Bike from Walmart. The gearing was too low. I have a mid-drive bike with proper gearing. I can pedal at 30MPH, and meaningfully contribute to propulsion. If your Mongoose had a proper gear ratio, you wouldn't have had the problem.
One big advantage of a mid-drive PAS bike is how far you can go. Today I rode over 52 miles, returning home with 18% battery remaining. This is much farther then your hub drives go.
What size is your chainring?
@@scottleone9892 I run 52 tooth Lekkie chainring with my BBSHD bikes and don't spin out close to 40 mph.
A direct drive hub motor with _regenerative braking_ can go much farther than any mid-drive, Greg. There's less energy lost in chains and drivetrain friction.
@@sammiller6631 If the direct drive hub with regenerative braking is ridden the way most people ride them, using the throttle and minimal pedaling, then my mid-drive bike bike will go much further with a similar sized battery. The regenerative braking will lengthen their range at most 10%. Not an insignificant amount, but not enough to make up for lack of pedaling.
@@4GregF "ridden the way most people ride them" is making excuses. Don't compare apples to oranges if you want a true measure.
If both bikes have the same PAS and are pedaled the same way, but one is mid-drive and other is a direct drive hub with regenerative braking, which will go farther?
The hit to the freewheel can be solved with some simple motor tuning and the issue of gear ratio just seems like you're not selecting the correct gear for the current speed/load condition. On a mid drive that uses the rear cassette gearing, it is super important to make sure you are in the correct gear. Just like a manual transmission car it would likely be unwise to try merging onto a fwy on ramp in 1st or 5th gear.
What I like about the hub drive is I upgraded the chainring to 52T. I'm getting a workout while going 25mph. Really changed everything for me. Dont think I would be happy with almost any mid drive at least for commuting as you cease to contribute after 28-20 mph.
That is the one thing I want to upgrade on my ebike is the gearing. A 14 tooth cog is not little enough to push as hard as you want within fast. An 11 is much better, or even a 9 tooth cog etc
To think you can't get a work out on a mid drive is ridiculous. I ride with performance cyclists without a motor. If I ride my BBSHD dropbar bike, also with 52 tooth Lekkie chainring at 25mph and set the power level on 1, I am pushing 180 watts through the crank with my body and the motor is contributing about 120 watts for a net of 300 watts.
A BBSHD mid drive roadbike is a wonderful training bike to compete with elite cyclists. I do it all the time.
@@lukewalker1051 mabe I don't have it right, but I've never seen a large chainring on a mid drive bike which leads me to it's just not a thing. Got pics? What's the setup look like I'm curious.
@@hank_Reardon that's an easy google, I've experimented many sizes for both the chainring and cassettes to find the most efficient gear ratios for my BBS bikes. On my Bbshd 42T front and 46t rear gives me the best of both worlds
@@hyedefinition1080 nice if I ever do one I'll remember that.
2:06 That ascending electric sound . . . always awesome.
It might be a good idea to have the torque sensor at the wheel, as well as an internal geared hub, and belt drive.
Dude, you have no idea how much better the mid-drive format is...
High ends cassettes have little to no play. And at high speed they make nice sounds :)
Also I never had your second problem with my mid hub. I think when you're using a powerful motor it's more of a motorbike and it makes little sense to pedal with it.
Exactly 100%.
Street motorcycles actually have a cush drive: the sprocket is direct mounted to the cush drive, which is mounted to the hub but with large tight packed rubber dampers.
As the age and get worn, they can get slopping, which is very noticeable (similar to what you are experiencing). And the solution is to pull them apart and pack plastic spacers in so that it is once again riding on tight packed large surface area of rubber.
Dirtbikes usually lack the cush drive, which is a big part of why they are much harsher on the road (and easier to break traction).
Middrive has the advantage of using the gears, where as a hub motor is a single speed, so I would of thought middrive would win with allowing the rpm to run higher than a fixed gear hub motor at slower speeds & hill climbing, I have a bbshd 1000 and yes the motor can spin faster than I can pedal, but it works well if, I have it in a gear where I am pedling fairly fast, balances between pedaling input and motor input.
PS, my gearing is tall enough to spin the wheel when off the ground, to 96 kph 60 mph, but it can only push me up to 50-65 kph , using a 52 tooth chainring then means I can use 2nd - 4th gear for road riding, using the gears with additional teeth on the cassette, means the cassette & chainring will last longer, less stress on the teeth & less loading with increased tooth count in contact with the chain
Hub drives have higher peak power capability. The transmission through a mid-drive's bicycle drivechain limits the maximum motor power that can be coupled to the wheels. Hub drives are have no such limitation.
@@sammiller6631 ua-cam.com/video/iUqEUcTNEDM/v-deo.html
@@sammiller6631 dude please stop pretending you have the slightest idea how motors work. Your in every comment section on this video saying a bunch of complete crap lol
What is needed is some sort of transmission that allows the motor to spin at the optimal RPM, and, always maintains some pedal resistance at all speeds.
Like bike gears, that are on the bike...
Judging by your handlebar sway when pedaling, I wonder whether your crank length is too long for your legs. (and/or saddle height too low). Especially when you mentioned the hub drive forcing you to spin out when the motor hits its peak. It's supposed to be geared down to be optimal with human pedaling cadence. BTW, thanks for the laugh about a 'super steep hill'. But I'm out west where they get really steep.
Hello, hope you are well.
I have an old hub motor e-bike that I found behind the bins and just couldn't get on with the pedal assist as it kicked in too fast when you start to pedal. It has a half throttle as well though, so I disconnected the peadal assist sensor and just use the throttle to guage where it needs to be when pedalling. It is a lot better as I've modified the controller in order to give more power. Only complaint is now the top gear when pedalling makes my legs go too fast... needs a taller ratio i think.
With regards to mid drive kits however, I think they are a good idea for lower powers. The problem with running higher powered mid systems is that the drive train is not engineered to deal with that much power. The torque and hammer action inside the freewheel is going to wear out really quickly, then fail. Then you can't even pedal it because your main drive train is shot. Higher powered mid drive systems should have their own drive train and gear system that are self contained.
One idea could be to use a pupose built sturmey archer style hub gear (more durable), coupled with the regular deraileur system. The motor would have it's own drive train and work through the hub gears. The pedals also have the usual chain etc setup but would be able to meet the speed at which the motor turns the rear hub gears, both pedalling and motor would work through the hub gears making for a high speed, high powered vehicle which could be tuned to each individual riders fitness level electronically and mechanically. No more destroying freewheels and chains.
Quite surprised I haven't seen anything like that yet.
I have done the same, but now run a 53x9 gear ratio.
Pedalling at 35mph no problems.
3500miles on it so far.
Been bullet proof,
Ive seen an ebike like this from china. Its a high powered mid drive with a belt going to the rear wheels along the left chain stay and the regular chain that pedals the bike on the right side. Not sure about the pedal assist details or anything.
So many issues with your mid-drive gripes. First issue is using a massively powerful mid-drive with a freewheel & big box hub. My Ludicrous HD on an old Cannondale with good hubs and cassette is working fine but needs truing every thousand miles or so. I'm not against big box at all, I've done a BBS02 on a $100 bike and plan an HD on my Mongoose Dolomite ALX but I don't mind tinkering and upgrading parts as they wear. The proper gearing is always a delicate balance done to taste no matter the drive (if you pedal). I'm not personally familiar with the CYC, except in print, but that play you had isn't present in my BBS02 or BBSHD. I do notice some slight delay and grab if I go WOT or start in PAS 9 but it comes from my freewheel & cassette (BBS02 & BBSHD) and is nowhere near as jolting as your lag & snap.
What are the advantages to Big box hub though?
@@jayzherka4943 I don't know of any beyond price.
I have same issue, if i pedal, I need high gears to move but the motor wants to spin very very fast in lower gears. I tend to keep my bike in the middle and ghost pedal. The cinching issue happens to, again thats at higher power so I try to avoid it. This is on a bafang BBS02 750W. But imo mid-drives just deliver more power/speed and I prefer centered weight on my bikes. Personal preferences, your criticism is on the mark though.
One major advantage of a mid drive is the many customization choices for front & rear cassette. With my BBSHD build, I chose a 42T chainring and a 46T chainring and I can utilize 10/11 gears for pedalling.
I mainly ride with PAS 5, which is 100% power to the motor and I still get 25miles range on a 52v 19A battery. AMuch higher range on the lower PAS levels.
That's so similar to my setup! Good one!
issue #1 = use your break cutout switch like a clutch
issue #2 = turn down your motor, get a good setting ( i went with a 9 speed setup, running a 9speed on the back)
I put the pedal assist on 5 and start out on gear 3 or 4 and then upshift until im at about 20mph/32km and 7th gear is good with more to give.52 on the front
On your second point about the gear ratio, you didn't have a large enough front chainring. The one you had was designed for mountain bikes and high torque for low speed climbing, not for high speed commuting. That's not the mid drive's fault.
The new Lectric XPremium has a mid drive with a 52 Tooth front chainring and a 12 (smallest) in the rear. It can comfortably pedal above 20 mph AND has a torque sensor.
yep this is about what i was going to say, bigger front chanring changes everything
Fo you think im putting too much stress on my bbso2? Im using a 48 front and a 16 tooth back
I have two mid drive Bafang bikes. My opinion is the pros outnumber the cons with mid drives...I'm having a blast on mine!
You unfortunately chose the cyc because of "power" specs I think. The BBSHD is a much better system than the cyc for most use cases imho.
Agree and quieter, cheaper and if you hotrod it can produce the same power as the CYC.
Ok, Newbie here. Is there not a shaft/belt drive in the market? Also, why would anyone use conventional metal spoke rims instead of the solid composite rims? I hears the metal spokes can loosen up or fail.
Just for the record, I'm up in years and looking at 3 wheels exclusively. Falls are not an option at my age. Want long range, like 100 miles, high speed of at least 50mph, and some creature comforts, without spending umpteen thousands of greenbacks. Any suggestions/answers? Thanks, like your vids too btw.👍👋✊🖖
I've been riding hub motor for several years and I recently rediscovered the joy of pedaling by adding a single speed 53T crankset. It's an empowering feeling when you can crank your legs and actually keep up with your motor 😂. I just upgraded my second bike with a 58T. I can't wait to feel that leverage😁
Very helpful. Two more reasons I won't go with a mid drive conversion.
I’ve had two different bosch motors and I noticed the motor’s ideal gear ratio the other day. I looked at the display and I was putting in almost all the effort at 20mph because it wanted me in a higher gear. That part sucks but it’s worth it.
dependant on where you live it might literally be limited to 16mph in software
It's a simple choice,
Off road fun more like mountain biking get a mid drive and be prepared to do some repairs ( carry tools )
Commuting and run around fun no hastle get a rear hub drive.
I have both and just ride the appropriate bike for the ride, my mid drive is bafang ultra on a Frey ex so a sturdy build capable of both jobs but the need to shift gears mid acceleration makes road riding less fun than hub drive.
My geared hub has a belt drive. Great combination
I have both the bafang mid-drives the bbs02b and bbshd on both my bikes and I couldn't be happier with one 750w 48v and the other 52v 1000w ☺️
My 02 & HD can run either 48 or 52. Not all but most can if you can set it in the display.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 o yes thanks I think I've seen that 👍🏾
You can get rear cassettes that grab immediately. I watched a bike tech video on UA-cam. It was installed on a mountain bike, and the rider said it sounds really nice and doesn’t make the constant clicking noise, but it also made it harder to pedal from a standstill while going uphill. Something like that woukd probably be great on an e- bike though...
Just happen to show up on my video to watch and I spent 11:08 minutes wasted that I can never get back. This is such a ignorant video. You use cheap component to create a DIY mid-drive e-bike and then you want to complain???? You use cheap parts and you use the logic of a motorcycle to make your point??? Really??? Really??? The point you are missing e-bikes are suppose to be bikes not scooters are motorcycles. E-bikes are suppose to help you not do the damn work for you. This concept is lost among people who want to make bicycles into unlicensed motorcycles and straying away from the purpose of a e-bike. Instead of making a ignorant statement saying I had to pedal fast and easily to make the motor go then maybe you should understand the concept of shifting and using the proper cadence with the proper motor setting to get the desired effect. Most novice have that problem until they get experience enough to know when and how to shift and what level of assist to use to get to a certain speed. They usually don't make UA-cam videos claiming to be some type of authoritative figure acting like they should be taken as an expert.
Stop trying to be expert on a subject that is way beyond your experience level. Understand the concept before you post.
Let me help you. Say it after me.
First understand the difference Between Cassette vs. Freewheel
A freewheel which is also known as a block, consists of either a single sprocket or a set of sprockets mounted on a body which will contain an internal ratcheting mechanism and mount on a threaded hub. It screws directly onto the rear wheel of your bike and the mechanism that locks when you pedal forwards - forcing the wheel to be driven by the train. When you’re simply cruising along i.e. not pedaling, or going backward, it spins freely.
A cassette is the more modern option and has quickly overtaken the freewheel. Cassettes as they have a series of straight splines that form the mechanical connection between the sprockets and the cassette compatible hub, which is called a freehub, and contains the ratcheting mechanism. The entire cassette is held on the hub by way of a threaded lockring. Some cassette systems from the end of 1980s and start of 1990s used a threaded small sprocket to hold on the larger splined sprockets. Cassettes resemble freewheels when installed, but are clearly different when removed as they don’t contain a freewheel internal ratcheting mechanism.
Realize most mid-drive e-bike uses a cassette while most hub drive uses a freewheel. Maybe you should have use the right equipment for the right e-bike.
A mid-drive e-bike is not or should not be designed as a mini-motorcycle or scooter. That is not the purpose of the design.
Understand the concept of a torque sensor.
Mid-drive motor e-Bikes are often equipped with a torque sensor. This combination offers the most natural pedaling possible - as you pedal harder, the motor provides more help. Back off, and so does the motor. Which means you should put the upmost effort using the smallest sprocket.
Hub motors are more responsive??? Really?
One of a mid-drive’s biggest advantages over a hub drive is that it can take advantage of your bike’s gears. Electric motors operate more efficiently at higher RPMs, and mid-drive motors are generally tuned to operate efficiently at a natural pedaling cadence. So when you’re pedaling in the right gear, the motor will be operating in its comfort zone.
All this means that given equal power and torque, a mid-drive motor will usually be better going up steep hills, assuming you shift to the appropriate gear. The ability to work together with your gears has other benefits, such as improved range, and it contributes to the more ‘natural’ ride experience of most mid-drive.
You do understand this is why competitive emtb racers uses mid drive and not hub motor right???
You do really need to get a proper mid-drive e-bike and learn how to ride it before you make these erroneous statements. If you are just wanting a e-bike to perform as a scooter then go ahead and make your argument. No one will care about weight, efficiency, design when you are mostly depending on a throttle. But if you are trying to say a e-bike designed as a scooter is better at being a bicycle than a mid drive motor in the contextual argument as an expert, you may want to rethink that analogy.
Thanks for saying everything I was thinking
i live in phx az where everywhere is a flat and a grid. i ride to commute for work and errands and my read hub ebike it great. glad i don't need to deal with all the intricacies and apparent skill requirements of using mid drives.
As you know, electric motors work best at lower RPM, so using a mid drive makes more sense to get the most out of the battery while being able to use a ratio best suited to the load so the motor is not spinning itself out at higher RPM.
I've not seen a freewheel break like what you are describing, so maybe there needs to be a more gentle delivery of power like what my mid drive Bosch does (28mph Trek Allant+).
If you want a really strong freewheel for a mid drive, something like a DT Swiss hub with a Star Ratchet (360 degree pawl) might have the strength you need.
Ehhhhm no you really can’t generalize it this way. Super high rpms can be a problem but in General Electric motors work better at higher rpm with gearing. The mechanical power is Torque multiplied with RPM. Torque is fixed for a specific motor so they can generate more power when spinning faster.
it’s the opposite: electric motors are more efficient at higher rpm.
@@dumbstupidfalk that’s true in most scenarios but not every time. With speed the Motor Core losses increase and in some scenarios efficiently decrease again when it turns very fast.
Mech engineer here. Electric motors have power and efficiency curves. The maximum efficiency will be near the higher range of RPMs.
Search images for "motor efficiency curve".
@@blise518B sure, there are plenty of low RPM motors: low KV motors like a hub motor or a stepper (although they are pretty low efficiency). But in this context, a mid drive motor, higher RPM = greater efficiency, up to core saturation of course.
one of your finest video...very much liked that you went into details and although i have a bbs02 and think mid drive is the way to go...the points you discussed specially the stability of the motors and the pedal/motor ratio are very relevant.
Not really. Its relevant if you get the gearing wrong on a mid drive aka too short of gearing....and, you don't have your power assist levels set up properly. A BBSHD and BBS02 motor is programmable with a laptop and USB cable designed to interface the motor controller to the computer.
I love my bbso2b it rarely breaks my clutch might be giving out or might need a clean. I just want better parts for cheaper to replace then spending like 200 for a motor core that probably costs then 50 to make so....shows you how that goes.... Just hope bafang doesn't ruin there business with sitting on there butts and getting all corporate..so much better as 8fun now they meh in terms of how they present themselves....but despite my complaints I love it well lasted me a good 3yrs. Unlike a hub motor it will be really heavy and horrible to change tires hate them. Had the magnets fall out due to vibrations, burning the phases also the hall sensors going out. Just hated having to retrue a wheel just to fix it. Glad I got over my hub motor phase horrible for anyone. Good for records not for convenience.
I've had multiple flat tyres on my hub motor e-bike I've never had to take the wheel off.
It's a 2 minutes fix with puncture repair kit.
I'm only changed the tyre twice in two and a half years.
You obviously have to take the wheel off for that.
@@scottrocks1993 Scott, do you run tubeless? Do you run slime?
it _rarely_ breaks your clutch? Cheap crap will be a bad experience, no matter if mid or hub drive.
PLEASE SHOW HOW YOU ATTACHED THAT "A STYLE" Battery pack to bike
you put too much power through yours all at once most people don't know how to handle a mid-drive motor
Im building my next e bike this winter and i was wondering about a hub or a mid drive and nobody talked about the mid drive rides compared to a hub thanks bro
Sorry, but your experience is only a microcosm of the ten's of thousands DIY mid drives out there. I could write a book on both issues but will spare you.
Let's put it this way...if the problem's you posit were more universally true, mid drives wouldn't have their cult like following.
A couple of brief points. You were running your mid drive CYC through a 'hub motor freehub' versus a more universally accepted bicycle hub. The construction of the attachment to a rear drive hub motor is not the same as say on a conventional bicycle freehub with rear derailleur.
On the pedaling speed versus assist issue with your CYC, that can be worked out with tuning. But your CYC was for example a 'torque sensing' power assist controller and for a Bafang BBSHD for example, all controlllers are cadence sensor based.
But know, just like a geared rear hub motor, internal gearing in both a rear hub motor that is geared and say a Bafang motor that has RPM reduction as well....gearing is designed to match bicycle gearing and human cadence not to exceed about 120 RPM.
This can all be explained mathmatically as well and what engineers consider when they design these systems.
I personally prefer mid drive ebikes. My take on mid drive ebikes is, they are for more advanced riders. You don't want to put a novice on a Ducati Supersport motorycle and have them start in 3rd or 4th gear with ample throttle and not blow up the driveline/trans/engine. Problem is, people don't know how to ride a mid drive to extract the performance and these type of riders are better served with hub motor bikes IMO.
I wanted to register the above comments because many may watch your video and believe what you write to be true. I have 3000 watt Bafang mid drive ebikes with 5K miles on them with the original chain and cassette. I ride them with elite road cyclists as in guys who can ride a bicycle 25mph without a motor who are accomplished racers...the world I come from...and on my ebike, my cadence matches my personal watt expenditure relative to how many watts the motor contributes perfectly.
Mid drives are better off road for 36-52v systems, but on higher voltage bikes DD hub motors make a lot more sense for road riding.
@@FightFilms rear hub motors add a lot weight to the rear wheel which creates a high rear weight bias. Because rear hub motors only have internal gearing...or not at all, they are at a disadvantage when it comes to climbing hills for the same power level because on a mid drive the motor using the torque multiplication of the bicycle gearing. It is much harder to change a rear tire on a hub motor bike versus rear drive and because most of the weight is in the rear, the rear tire always flats more.
I do agree mid drives are better for off road riding because of weight distribution and low gearing. But I prefer mid drives for all riding. I am not a rear hub drive hater. They have their place. I believe overall mid drives are better however.
@@lukewalker1051 Using a front wheel hub drive negates those real wheel problems. Don't demand that all problems must fit into a false dilemma. the fallacy of bifurcation is a fallacy for good reason. _Cheap_ rear hub wheels add more weight. But there are more expensive hub motors that are lighter than mid drives.
I convert all my mid-drive builds to a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed Disc Brake Rear Hub ($130). The second gear is direct drive mechanically. Perfect chain/belt alignment. No wear/skipping issues. Plenty of gear range without the hassles of derailleurs.
i have nexus 3 with autoshifter on my experimental bike. it shifts up when the wheel turn faster and faster and shifts down when it gets slower.
@@coskuarsiray Wow neat, that sounds like an automatic transmission. How is your experiment going especially on steep hill inclines? Where did you find this hub/shifter? I can't find anything on Google/UA-cam. What is the model #?
I have a mid drive but, because it has a torque sensor, I don't have the same issue you describe. If Inot applying any torque with my legs I'm not generating any assistance from the motor.
I built a BBSHD with Co-well 52 volt 17ah on my 29” and love it as long as you don’t power shift when peddling no hub drive will ever have the torque you can add a instant freewheel not cheap but if you don’t shift under power you won’t have a problem