Please consider (like I did) the third opinion-BOTH! I have a Bafang mid drive running on 72v (Grin), chained to a Qs205 (72200) Sabvoton. The bike is a 29” hard tail and packs 2 72v 35ah triangular batteries. If one system fails, the other gets me home. Final gears are 60/12. The hub set up gets me up to speed and the mid drive helps with little drain on either battery and both can maintain highway speed for miles on Ozark roads.
Bob Patty I make the same but in a very cheap way. I put a bafang 750w mid drive on an engwe 750w rear hub motor. I have 2 diefrend system with 2 different throttle and motor batteries. ebike 1000$+bafag bbso2+48v 350#+12ah battery250$=1600$ My choise today is front and rear gearless hub motor about 1000w with their own batterys controllers and throtlles.
The chain-snapping issue is why mid-drive bike buyers might like to get an internal gear hub. Many city bike riders like internal gear hubs because they are less subject to weather and weathering. I agree that a mid-drive bike with internal gears and belt drive is a fantastic choice, but that will be expensive. Building the bike yourself by converting a conventional bike might be a good idea.
First of all very interesting points as I have rode a hyb drive for 10 months and yes have had very little problem with it, but have I enjoyed it as in my earlier days I did a lot of cycling I am now 58 with medical condition. My answer is mixed it was good to be on the road again cycling but it didn't feel natural, mine was front wheel hub and felt if someone was pulling me until my peddling took over, very heavy and vibrated a lot when riding over rough uneven road, the motor could be heard and knew when it was on. I brought the hub drive becausde of costs we can only buy what we can afford, but enough is enough and decided to try a mid drive but couldn';t afford a mid drive bike so looked at convertion kits. So I converted my hub drive with a mid drive and what are the differences it as deleated all the negative points on the hub drive, can't hear the motor many times forget the motor is there its that quiet, certainly less vibration when going over rough roads and cycling feels more natural. I find very little complecations with gear changing as I do have a gear sensor fitted. But I am not going to be giving the cycle lots of rough riding or doing any great speeds, so I do feel how long your chain lasts is if your going to be doing a lot of off roading and excess work your going to be doing on it, if your going to be using your cycle just for everyday commuting going to work, cycling round town and long distance riding can't see chain giving lots of problems as my gears change smoothly. So yes must admit I prefare the mid drive to the hub drive but the hub drive got me back on the toad again and its what one can afford as mid drives are a lot more expensive then mid drives as you can get a hub drive for £500+ and mid drives are about £1,200+, my hub drive cost me £650 and to convert it to a mid drive cost £950. So for £300 more well worth it. Mike
Did you notice any difference in the range you are getting with mid compared to hub? I would like to have an ebike that can cover about 100km so I can go for longer rides.
Yes there is slight difference as I had just started taking my mid drive out this week and so far done 24 mile which with the Hub drive would of swapped battery by now as I always have a spare battery with me, with the mid drive its only on half so expecting it to do another ride as I ride approx 12 mile a day so instead of charging cycle every two days only charging every 3 days so there is a about 35% increase in distance which was told there would be a 30% and I am over 21 stone, the difference in riding is fantastic I can't hear the motor as I could the hub it so easy to forget it is motor propelled, its not as viibrating over rough roads due to the heavy motor wheel so yes it is a great imporovement to cycling as you don't notice the motor is there because using the cycles gears the only time I would notice the motor is if I switched it off, all I can say is before the convertion I would give it 4 ouit of 10 now I give it 8 out of 10 and will gain a point when I get some Hydraulic cable brakes Zoom HD100 so expected to see a great improvement in braking and the only other fault I don't like the colour of the bike but not changing that so if it would of been a nice colour it would become a 10 out of 10 cycle. My batteries are 10ah with a 15 ah battery maybe arrange 45 miles before acharhe which is 35 mile at the moment but I have mine on the high setting all the time as battery power cuts out when cycle reaches 16mph its a waste of time to keep adjusting the levels. But yes it as given me the encouragement to cycle more as its peddle assist. Mike
@@michaelrowland6538 Thank you for the detailed comparison. It looks like mid drive is better for longer distances and for hills. I suppose those are the most important elements I need. I have a hub drive at the moment and I can get about 50-60km on flat terrain, but uphill it drains really fast. I put a lot of my effort in riding and use only the smallest assistance otherwise I think I would be getting around 30km. I think I will finish this season with the hub and try and work on mid for the next season. I supose also that I need a bike with good quality gears and chain etc etc when I switch to mid drive.
@@joaomarveloso1049 Every thing as its day including technology and my opinion the only thing keeping hub drives going is price a lot cheaper, you can get a hub ebike for a third of the price for a mid drive and companies like Swytch are trying to keep the hub drive alive. But its like records and cassettes then they came cds and we enjoyed what these systems gave but their time as concluded, the gears and chain on my bike is just basic nothing special, if you like your hub bike then convert that as you already have a battery and a cycle you can hide the cables and sell the hub kit you have took off the cycle. Its all how you feel but yes I am very surprise at the difference a mid drive makes, there is all kinds of rubbish going around mid drives are for off road and chain brakes, yes if a person is flying their cycle six foot in the air and standing up peddling you don't need a motor to break the chain it is how you use it. How many cyclist use their hub ebikes for off road fun? So general use it is down to chance use a cycle as it should it will last as ever since cycles where invented punctures and chains snapping as always been weaknesses in bikes. The truth is mid drives arw todays improved tech for cycles. Mike
I don't usually do two reviews on the same video but response to my comment as been very good but feel their as been a mix up of my interpretation what a ebike is, when I was young I would go cycling all over and to me cycling is slow transport where you want to go defently slower then a motor vehicle, but all the power in the bike was done by me. Some days I would avarage about 18mph and some other day maybe 10 mph depending on weather, hill climbing but everything was done by natural strength and I loved it and enjoyed it because if I set out cycling to the sea side it was nice an scenic and the travelling was a part of the day out as in a motor vehicle all the scenary just flashes by and only the seaside then becomes the enjoyment the trip is just long and boring even so its faster. Sadly for me my natural days of cycling is over as time goes by and we get older and obstacles get in the way and we miss what we once had. An ebike to me as put youth back into my life I don't want a motor vehicle I got one of them and its boring but my wife won't let me get rid of the car, I had motor cycles in my time and they just like cars do all the work for you. I had a hub motor and I liked it and it got my interest in cycling again but I didn't love it, it never felt what I had before when the motor worked it did all the work, when my peddling took over I did all the work it didn't work with me it worked for me, with a mid drive I feel the motor is working with me it feels more natural and put the feel of cycling in my life again more natural. So Mid drive peddle assist does what it says assist as hub motors don't they feel as if they pushing or pulling you until motor cuts out, so for give me if I don't talk about high speeds because that isn't what I got a ebike for, I got it to give me what time as took away the chance to cycle again without feeling tired and worn out just going down the streets, the beauty of cycling isn't cycling to work or the shops but taking little trips in the country side and enjoying the outdoors. To me the mid drive is more like cycling then a hub drive but the hub still provides a good ebike, a twin tub will still wash and spin your cloths as a automatic does but you don't have to empty the washing machine to fill the spinner the automatic does it without that. A mid drive really is like naturally riding a cycle and I only know its me not doing all the work when I turn the motor off and then it comes evident, if you want to do great speeds then a motorcycle is the answer but if you want to cycle when your old or overweight and have health problems then the ebike is your answere and if you choose a hub drive its better then nothing but mid drives give the more natural cycling feeling. For chains snapping and a hub drive getting you home when did a normal cycle get you home when the chain snapped? If your worried about the chain put one in your saddle bag I always carry a spare innertube which your more likely to have a puncture then chain snapping. Benefits of the mid drive to the hub drive, 1. More natural cycling feeling, 2. Better avarage speed because can use cycles gears and not stuck in one gear, 3. Motor working alongside your peddling until restricted speed is reached, 4. Better when going over uneven and rougher service because there is no heavy wheel, 5. less chance of a puncture because weight isn't on your tyre 6 .Finally does more miles per charge with Hub I avaraged about 20 to 24 miles to a charge, Mid Drive I have done 36 miles to this charge and is just hitting last bar. Benifits of hub drive 1, Purchase price 2. Chance of chain snapping on mid drive which if you have a spare chain with you takes just as long as if you had to mend a puncture. Hope this helps. thanks Mike
I enjoyed reading your thoughts on mid drive vs. rear hub drive. I just bought this Giant Talon E 3 and received it last Saturday 10 Feb 2024 and I completely agree with you. A much better experience so far than riding on a rear hub drive. And it only weights 40 pounds. Cheers!
Hi "Bike Zone" I have build approx 5 different ebikes with directdrive-hub-, geared-hub- and middrive-motor. On my 34 kg Strada velomobile (weight without motor, battery, tools, and luggage) I have driven 3-4000 km with a Bafang 250W 80 Nm middrivemotor and even sometimes changed gear without the motor completely switched off. And the same chain have now lasted 20.000 Km (first many km without motor). So I think your opinion “the chain will snap instantly” Is kind of wildly exaturated ! Happy ebiking everyone ;-)
Finaly someone answers to my question of what happens when you run out of battery (or if your motor breaks). On a hub motor you can still pedal your way wherever you are going while on a mid motor you can´t. On a rear hub motor you can also extend your distance by riding on H mode where you use the throttle only when you need assistance.
You missed the fact that there is a shift sensor which shuts off the motor during shifting. A mid-drive is better on very steep hills. You need a really large hub drive in comparison to a mid drive.
That was useful. I bought a mid-drive. I don't mind more maintenance with the performance and handling benefit of mid-drives. I have a hub drive scooter and that rear hub motor has a ton of inertia when it gets going. Not super great for handling but yeah, definitely pretty bulletproof. I've had my hub drive scooter for years and it's still going strong. I don't think you can kill hub drives.
What what? Internal mid-drives have less maintenance than a hub. Especially if you get a belt instead of a chain, theres like zero maintenance for several years at a time.
Very nice and balanced explanation. In my opinion the hub drive is a better option for now unless you have plenty of money and access to a dealership for repairs. This is a big drawback presently. I think owning an Ebike for the average person would require some knowledge and maintenance skills due to the lack of available repair options. There just aren’t any local mechanics similar to car repair shops. Additionally a front hub motor is a terrible idea because the front fork is not designed to be used to pull an Ebike. There’s a good chance that the front fork and wheel will break off eventually.
@@ericscott6682 I don’t know if we’re talking about the same thing. The front fork steering column can’t handle the continuous pulling force and if subjected to a lot of hard use can eventually fracture and cause the front fork to break off probably when in use.
If your changing gear on a mid drive you just have to ease of on the peddling slightly so as not to damage to change and cogs. Some mid drivdz have shift detection
Hub motors are not lower maintenance. They place a great deal more stress on the axles and bearings that are little to nothing more than a traditional bike hub. The spokes are shorter and lower cross so they tend to loosen. Most of your weight, the weight of most things you carry and the heavy heavy motor are all resting on these short, near radial spokes. Mid-drives are no more likely to break a chain than a traditional bike. Mid-drives that are legal do not exert as much torque as even one human arm. You will get the same mileage out of a mid-drive chain as a traditional, you will just reach it a lot sooner. You forgot to mention that mid-drives climb hills much, much easier and faster than hub drives. Hub drives drive only the hub and you can only help it by pedaling. A mid-drive uses your transmission, so you can down shift and often even increase power and speed climbing hills. A great example would be my friend's 1500 watt peak, geared hub drive that won't climb an on-ramp near as quickly as a 250 watt mid-drive in my shop. When you consider that most of my mid-drives are 500-750 watts and 80-160nm's of torque, that is quite aignificant.
@@JohnBowl14690 52 years in the business, fordt e-bike 1978, morethsn a gross of custom conversions, the only e-bike service fascility in in a 1.5mil MSA, dozens of hub drive rebuilds and actual riding experience on just about everything made including some seriously illegal bikes both hub and mid-drive. I have never had to lace a traditional hub on a mid-drive e-bike. Have had to do so twice on legal hub drives this week alone.
@@MHH3180 - If you were the only one in the world that did ebike maintenance, I would side with you. lol. Today I use google. It tells me the scoop based on the majority.
@@JohnBowl14690 of course, everything on The Internet is true! There isn't even one bike reviewer that knows squat about bikes, muchless e-bikes. There's a reason 100% of my suppliers are moving to mid-drives. Rad is the only major name not turning away from hub drives. Velotric has developed a whole new motor from their parent company. Lectric has been adapting hubs to mid in an intriguing manner (hinted yesterday to adding it to The Expedition and adding gears to their trike mid). Aventon has been overwhelmed by rim failures and spooe issues. They too have introduced a mid-drive going as far as to suggest this is the future of their bikes. Unless you intend to break the law on level ground, hub motor tech is too far outdated to be taken seriously. outdated
From what I’m seeing hub drive especially geared hub drives are best if u don’t have a lot of hills or do mt biking… and mid is good if you are doing those activities..so both are good in their own way I think for a majority of people it’s best to go with a geared hub on a bike mainly used to travel on flat roads from paint a to b…🤷♂️ I have never had an issue with hills on a 750w hub drive but I hear complaints on the ones that are less powerful more power seems to fix most of the drawbacks of hub drives… my next bike is going to be 1000w geared hub with torque sensor and hopefully weighs under 60lbs
Yes, I think it's all about power and torque. Electric cars use gearless hub drives after all. A mid-drive will let you go in lower gears, so if you're capped at 250watt, gears is a way to get more help when going up hills and starting from a standstill. But if you're not capped at 250w, you can get a rear hub motor with 750watt continuous and peak of say 1500watt at 85+ NM torque, and you'll have no problems on hills and won't need lower gears. But I think outside the US, a lot of country eBike regulations mean motors cap at 250watt and with lower peak power as well. That probably explains the interest in middrive motors.
The chain doesn't snap instantly when you shift on motor power, I have 5500km on my chain and it hasn't snapped yet and as for weight management with hub motors, you have to take rotational mass into account too...
Another massive reason is suspension, since suspension relies on the wheel being as light as possible, putting a motor that weighs 5x that of a normal wheel renders any suspension on that wheel pointless, in fact it makes suspension worse than rigid, since it now slams all that weight and inertia up and off the ground, so if you want full sus that's in any way functional a mid drive is required.
You really think that 8lb motor makes any difference back there? I mean you can switch to different suspensions and besides that, Im packing any 50lbs of being overweight, so 8lbs seems pretty insignificant. Idk....
@@srobeck77 It's not a matter of "do I really think" 100 grams makes a difference in unsprung weight, that's why tubeless tyres, carbon rims and alloy cassettes that cost $1000's exist.
@@Effect-Without-Cause ok but im curious as a matter of ratio. Im packing an extra 60lbs overwieght =200lbs. How does 8 lb matter at all compared to that?
@@srobeck77 Suspension is all about sprung vs unsprung mass, In your case higher sprung mass actually makes lighter unsprung mass more effective. Higher unsprung mass is always bad though because of the inertia it'll pick up from bumps. Look up "Sprung VS Unsprung Weight" it's a 1.33 minute car video explaining it perfectly.
Great explanation, thanks! Question... Will a hub-drive work with a mid-drive on the same bike with dual throttles? What I'd like to do is put the 750W hub motor on the front of a BeeCool Challenger, then put a mid-drive on the back wheel, Giving me both options plus AWD. Another thought, Is it possible to use a CVT on a mid-drive ebike? Chains are loud and they break. Transmissions are mechanical, heavy and expensive. CVT's are lightweight, cheap, quiet and seem like the perfect solution...?
@@bike-zone The Ola S1 and Ola S1 Pro are fixing to revolutionize the world. I want to get in line for 1 of these...! ua-cam.com/video/w3-1_OyqdDs/v-deo.html
I had bafang mid-drive conversion few years back with shifting sensors etc - well it was powerful but it was not a bicycle anymore it became an electric motor, very heavy too also it eats aluminium chanrings and puts massive stress over whole drivesystem so I recommend change everything there to steel ebike specific components. Now I have sub 20kg rear hub cheap ebike because I wanted a bicycle that simply helps me a bit on climbs and does not break the bank.
Hub drives can be a drag; the motor makes the back end heavy; if you have a hard tail; then the bike hurts if you go over a bump unexpectedly! ouch; get a shocked seat post at least! The newer mid-drive motors from Bafang have a motor cut-out switch for 2022-23 models that will cut out motor power during shifts (amazing) and it works great. I have a Accomile Cola Bear with a 750w motor and it has the cut-out; there are never any issues with power on the chain, and the chain does not fall off due to power on during shifting. This motor is inexpensive compared to all the other motors out there, and a better design too; better than Bosch now! Forget belts, and forget the issues usually associated with Mid-drives. My Cola Bear climbs hills like a Bear; very fast.
That little 8lb hub motor doesnt affect how you feel bumps on trails or streets. One of disadvantages with hub is the weight distribution from when you're getting tossed around from side in heavy mountain bike trials and have to keep balance.
How about using both? Have a mid-sized, mid-drive motor for level-ground power. And have a small-sized, front hub-drive motor for hill-climbing power - and as a backup motor (in case the chain breaks) that will get you home from deep in the bush with night coming on....
You missed the biggest downside to the direct drive hub motor. If for any reason you lose battery power to the motor,you cannot pedal the bike! Due to the magnets interactions with the stator,( it acts just like regen braking). And any motor over 250 watts is impossible to pedal. And if it's larger than 1000watts it's impossible to even push the bike.
geared hub motors (small one) does not have that problem, i was surprised that wheel is completely free it rides like normal bike... you talking about gear-less hub motor (they are bigger) and yes they are hard to pedal...
I think you're handing out a myopic perspective of mid-drives. Not all mid-drive motors use a torque sensor. Not all mid-drives need "professional help" to perform much of the maintenance to keep them running. Not all ebikes require a proprietary frame that can only use one manufacturer's underpowered motor and small overpriced batteries. You mentioned the two types of hub motors but didn't mention add-on mid-drive motors like the BaFang BBSHD and their massive advantages... such as torque, throttle, adaptability, ease of installation and self-repair, cost, programmability, etc, etc, etc. There isn't a production mid-drive ebike I would own but I wouldn't ride anything but a mid-drive ebike. Most mid-drive chain and drive train damage is due to what should be an ever-changing chain line from gear changing. Riders rely on the motor to grunt it out rather than downshifting. Coupling a mid-drive with a Rohloff Speedhub is a game changer. Absolute minimum drive train wear and fast sure gear changes with a straight chain line. The Gate's belt will be another game changer but it's a little more tricky with a full suspension ebike. With minimum chain maintenance I change the chain and rear gear every 3K miles or about twice a year, less than $50 and I can do it on the side of the trail in about 45 minutes. I've been riding the same ebike for over 8 years and have ridden over 48K miles. Much of that has been with panniers and pulling a trailer on rough uphill surfaces, and I have never had a "heat management" issue. Apply only the necessary torque to an IGH and the motor can always stay in its comfort zone. We're talking about ebikes, if someone rides an ebike like it's a little motorcycle they are going to have excess damage and stress the motors regardless of if it's a mid-drive or a hub motor... but mid-drives are superior to hub motors. - photos.app.goo.gl/ADgC6oyPM2gyrCq27
I'd want to get both with the mid drive as the main drive and the hub motor to be the emergency drive if the chain breaks. Maybe have a spare chain, who knows.
If your worried about the chain breaking, maybe go with a belt instead. Or also, to reduce chain fatigue, pedal when you starting off instead of using the motor assist or the throttle.
in over 3,000 miles of varied terrain riding l have only had one chain failure on my mid-mounted motor EMtB. The split or master link failed. I had to push/freewheel home. Since then l have carried a spare master link and a spare chain in a frame bag. The advantages of mid mounting are overwhelming. The gear ratios are innumerable, my bike has 11. It will go up anything as long as there is grip. The power never surges as it does with a hub motor and it never keeps going after you stop pedalling. That feeling/consequence of the cheapo hub motor is very disconcerting. I have a full suspension bike so massive sprung weight would be even more off-putting. So, carrying a spare chain is no hardship in exchange for all the advantages of mid-drive.
That's impressive! It's great to hear that you've only had one chain failure in over 3,000 miles of riding. Carrying a spare chain seems like a smart move to ensure you can keep going on your mid-mounted motor EMtB.
Hahahhahahahhahah ok buddy. Then why is there not a single reputable company that makes hub drive ebikes and sells them to bike stores.....because hub drive is trash old tech
Just another point you might find interesting with the hub drive a round trip which includes some slight hills I avaraged around 12.6 mph and just looked at my monitor now and todays trip avaraged 15.1 mph on the same trip, I believe the difference is use of the gears. Mike
@@michaelrowland6538 I see you had 10aH and 15aH but what are the voltages? 12-15mph is not fast enough for me on flat land to invest $$$ unless I lived in hills and mountains.
@@carrickdubya4765 36v but the motors we have a 15,5 limit here in the UK and the speeds I have give is in all avarage as going up some hills touching 8 mph and ccoming down some at 25mph but motors cut off after 15.5mph. My ebike is UK road legal and can't exceed 250w and 15.5mph and as to be peddle assist. If your in the US the law is different in many states you can have 500w with max speed of assistance upto 20mph and I would still say the mid drive is more superior then the hub because of the gears you can use as even a hub drive will not get you up a hill at 20mph, but because on the mid drive you can use gears in lower gear you will get up the hill much faster. You sound aso you want a cycle for a motor vahicle, I want a cycle to feel like a bike but because my age and health I struggle on a normal cycle but I still want to do some of the work and the mid drive feels more like natural cycling as I don't us throttle I peddle, 15ah will last longer but not sure it gives much more speed, but both batteries where 36v. Mike
@@carrickdubya4765 What do you want a ebike for? I want a ebike to feel like a cycle to do what I was able to do when I was young, I don't want a ebike to feel like a motor vehicle or to do all the work for me I want to be doing what I am able to do. I am 58 years old, 21 stone with heart condition. I have a car and I could buy a moped or a ebike with a 750w motor upto 28mph and register it and ride it on my driving license but I don't want that I want to cycle, mid drives give that feeling as if one is doing all the cycling, we know that isn't true and one finds that when they switch the motor off, but it feels natural and my findings is the mid drive is more suitable to my needs then the hub motor and far more superior in the legal restrictions my country as that allows me to ride my bike as a peddle cycle. 15ah gets you further then the 10ah it doesn't give more speed, when I had a hub motor my cycle with the mid drive does no more speed with the motor but because of gears it uses the motor better as one can go in higher and lower gears and use cycle better. Is 250w and 36v enough? No because i still can't get up the real steep hills only further up them because of the torgue but I have to follow the law and restrictions of my country until the law changes, but I have got what I am after a cycle that feels natural when cycling and very happy and never found that with the hub drive. Mike
Ok, this is funny I have Bafang Mid Drives 750 and 1000 watt with a total of 23000 miles. The maintenance is torture, since the power comes from the main sprocket, the chain and your cassette will wear out every 1500 miles to 2000 miles. You'll not be able to interchange those parts, you will exchange both cassette and chain with new. Now your good for another 1.5 to 2k miles, I have about 100 feet of chain 20 worn out freewheels around here. If you buy a good hub motor kit, install it carefully, it should be care free to 30k miles I guess.
Glad I found and just subscribed to this channel. I'm about to buy an e-bike and need all the info I can get. I'll research it to death and then make an irrational impulse buy. I'm old but crazy! Experienced Motorcycle/Dirtbike/Trials rider. Have also ridden bicycles regularly all my life. MTB too. I will be riding it on and off road in New England. I'm anal retentive about maintenance, upkeep and upgrades. I need a Brotherhood of Experts to help an elderly guy out! ... --- ... ! My 1st guess-Mid Drive- 1000w full suspension, Not sure of tire size but can see more advantages with 26 x 4 than a more conventional 27.5 Help!!!!
Glad you shared your thoughts. If you want to get a 1000w mid-drive motor now, that'd be somewhat crazy. However, you said you're crazy! And that's okay. The wheel size you mentioned is okay. You can go for fat tire bikes. The rides will be stable then. And finally, be safe.
Can you please name the exact model of your hub motor? First of all, is it a front hub motor, or a rear hub motor? It would be a great help if you could specify.
@@ayazalishah1989 You're welcome! You need to do modification if you really need to make them work. As we aren't familiar with the one you have, it's better if we don't share any idea. But are you sure you want to modify?
if a chain breaks you can easily put a replacement chain $15 on the spot. If a hub motor burns out or destroys your spokes or snaps your dropouts in your fork you will be carrying your bike home.
Lol I dunno what emtbs you have been riding but your warning section about not shifting while under power will result in instant chain snapping. I do 2000' elevation in 20 miles. Changing gears whenever I want. Never had an issue. 21 Turbo Levo Comp
The off the shelf mid drives are only 250-350 watts. What you have to worry about is the Bbshd 1500 watt mid drives that have massive torque. If youre in the wrong gear and you go full throttle chain can snap easily. Im not sure your levo comp has a throttle.
I still say that rear hub motor is best for speed only problem tyres wear prity quick. But that depends on the person who rides the bike Yes to ride if motor packed in but still moves it's acward to peddle gear less is best if you get stuck you can still pedal like an ordinary bike midrive better with belt mot chain if you use for going around town chain is OK of road for any bike is stress
If a hub motor and mid-drive motor have the same listed top speed, and top speed is your main priority, is there any disadvantage to getting a rear hub bike (the option I'm looking at is about 400 cheaper than the mid-drive)?
Its not just top speed ,a mid drive utilizes gears better ,so it has much better torque than hub drives ,in some cases almost 1.7x better for the same power output making it much better for climbing hills .So if the bike is heavy ,your heavy and you have hills to climb your much better off with a mid drive
Most mid-drives use a single front chain ring, but there are options for running two. It's kind of a moot point though, because you probably don't need it.
The vid is ok but it is biased towards PAS systems and DD hubs vs Geared...no mention of higher vs lower powered bikes or the actually ride sensation/characteristics of each system. I am only being critical because this was presented to me as a good newbie vid and I think the pros and cons are weak. I think the last 20secs says it all, "offroad vs commuting and all the preferences in between" Technical trail riders and Kid carrier cargo bikes should go with crankdrives(middrives)...anyone else who likes the Jetsons feel, has no serious weight restrictions and doesn't need to hill start with a load will probably enjoy a geared or DD hub. Just learn to patch tubes without removing the wheel and bring a rope to suspend the flat wheel off of the ground from a branch or what have you....and get out and ride!
@@justdev8965 all the mid-drives Ive looked at do not have throttles. I was told its cause the starting torque is lower the hubs, so they dont bother with it (1up Prodigy v2 and Specialized Turbo Como are peddle assist only)
My electric bike has a 750W Hub Drive motor with a standard 48V 13ah battery, and a 48V 21ah extended range battery. My question about the 48V 21ah Extended range battery that's operating on the 750W Hub motor. Will I be able to increase range and my miles per hour ( mileage ) with the 48V 21ah battery if I travel for a longer distance. If so how will I know if my mph has changed based on the distance traveled.
@@calvintanner7897 while other factors come into play, like speed limiting and internal resistance of batteries, batteries of the same voltage will result in the motor turning at the same speed. The greater range is a result of the higher capacity battery, so you longer range battery should give you about 50% longer range for similar speed, weight, and road conditions. HTH, John
It's all about use case. Somebody trail riding would probably think mid drive is better. Somebody who's 70 and has COPD will likely choose a hub drive. Or someone like my wife, who would rather have forks stuck in her eyes than shift ANY vehicle. Truth be told, you wouldn't want her to do the shifting, trust me.
I was wondering when this was made? It does not ring true. The hub bikes I see are much much lighter, do not look like ebikes and overall look normal. I have been comparing a number of hub drive and mid drive. All mid drives, every one weighs a whole lot more and I mean a few kilos more.
Can you be more specific and give numbers? I'm researching hub drives, and all of the bikes that are worth anything weigh 55-65 lb. Whereas, I do not know the weight of a quality mid drive such as specialized.
Huh? Hub drives have the weight of the bike combined with the weight of the motor and battery vs the mid drive motor using a much lighter motor from hub motors but also integrated it into the frame make the bike jumpable utilizing a better center of gravity usually a smaller battery idk what ya sources are
mid drive bicycle needs at least 428 chains from motorcycles but all ebike companies has no develop power to overcome existing mtb parts. so better buy proper mid drive electric motorcycle than overpriced under engineered ebike crap.
Take this video down. It is totally inaccurate and false. First off, hub drive puts more strain breaking your spokes and putting torque onto the bike frame which becomes dangerous if u don’t have torque arms. Secondly, you can drive a midrive without using the motor. I can go on and on, I haven’t even got to ghosting in the pedal assist whereas mid drives have a torque sensors.
I guess the added trouble of undoing the band ties and cabling to get the wheel off ! I know it was doable but i bought slime inner tubes hopefully to avoid having to repair a puncture on the roadside, so in answer to your question and statement of course its doable but in emergency not as easy.
@@daypet1 A piece of cable with a plug comes out of my hub motor, which I unplug and then removing it from the bike is just as complicated as with any other bike, it just weighs more. There is not a single cable tie that I would have to cut. Okay, there's the extra torque lock, but that shouldn't really complicate matters. Maybe he is also referring to changing the rim without the hub, but putting spokes in and out of a hub is always complicated, regardless of whether it's a 20-inch children's bike rim or a 29 inch hub motor. Best regards!
Not more complicated about removing the rear wheel of a hub drive bike compared to non ebike. Only difference is you have to unplug the electric cable to the motor before removing wheel. I think he might've been talking about installing a different rim.
This covers the two pyramid points. Then there are soooooooo many other factors when choosing an Ebike. Before you buy an Ebike, take a class. Learn the info. Test drive a few. It's like electric cars. So many factors that without education, you're shooting blind 🦯🦮
There really isnt any classes you can take. About all you can is talk to the local ebike shop guys and watch youtube videos (and shift thru alot of bias and non-sense hot takes).
Please consider (like I did) the third opinion-BOTH! I have a Bafang mid drive running on 72v (Grin), chained to a Qs205 (72200) Sabvoton. The bike is a 29” hard tail and packs 2 72v 35ah triangular batteries. If one system fails, the other gets me home. Final gears are 60/12. The hub set up gets me up to speed and the mid drive helps with little drain on either battery and both can maintain highway speed for miles on Ozark roads.
You have made a great point! Thank you!
Bob Patty I make the same but in a very cheap way. I put a bafang 750w mid drive on an engwe 750w rear hub motor. I have 2 diefrend system with 2 different throttle and motor batteries.
ebike 1000$+bafag bbso2+48v 350#+12ah battery250$=1600$
My choise today is front and rear gearless hub motor about 1000w with their own batterys controllers and throtlles.
@@giannislarhanidis1117 thanks for sharing!
The chain-snapping issue is why mid-drive bike buyers might like to get an internal gear hub. Many city bike riders like internal gear hubs because they are less subject to weather and weathering. I agree that a mid-drive bike with internal gears and belt drive is a fantastic choice, but that will be expensive. Building the bike yourself by converting a conventional bike might be a good idea.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience.
I've done over 60,0000 miles on a combination of TSDZ2 and BBS02 and never broke a chain.
@@manoz6194he makes it sound like your chain will break easily with a Mid-Drive 🙄
@@joeburr7537 As long as you are in the correct gear, it will not be an issue
@@manoz6194Thinking of switching from rear hub to mid drive. Please how does one know the right gears ? Regards
First of all very interesting points as I have rode a hyb drive for 10 months and yes have had very little problem with it, but have I enjoyed it as in my earlier days I did a lot of cycling I am now 58 with medical condition. My answer is mixed it was good to be on the road again cycling but it didn't feel natural, mine was front wheel hub and felt if someone was pulling me until my peddling took over, very heavy and vibrated a lot when riding over rough uneven road, the motor could be heard and knew when it was on. I brought the hub drive becausde of costs we can only buy what we can afford, but enough is enough and decided to try a mid drive but couldn';t afford a mid drive bike so looked at convertion kits.
So I converted my hub drive with a mid drive and what are the differences it as deleated all the negative points on the hub drive, can't hear the motor many times forget the motor is there its that quiet, certainly less vibration when going over rough roads and cycling feels more natural. I find very little complecations with gear changing as I do have a gear sensor fitted. But I am not going to be giving the cycle lots of rough riding or doing any great speeds, so I do feel how long your chain lasts is if your going to be doing a lot of off roading and excess work your going to be doing on it, if your going to be using your cycle just for everyday commuting going to work, cycling round town and long distance riding can't see chain giving lots of problems as my gears change smoothly.
So yes must admit I prefare the mid drive to the hub drive but the hub drive got me back on the toad again and its what one can afford as mid drives are a lot more expensive then mid drives as you can get a hub drive for £500+ and mid drives are about £1,200+, my hub drive cost me £650 and to convert it to a mid drive cost £950. So for £300 more well worth it. Mike
Did you notice any difference in the range you are getting with mid compared to hub? I would like to have an ebike that can cover about 100km so I can go for longer rides.
Yes there is slight difference as I had just started taking my mid drive out this week and so far done 24 mile which with the Hub drive would of swapped battery by now as I always have a spare battery with me, with the mid drive its only on half so expecting it to do another ride as I ride approx 12 mile a day so instead of charging cycle every two days only charging every 3 days so there is a about 35% increase in distance which was told there would be a 30% and I am over 21 stone, the difference in riding is fantastic I can't hear the motor as I could the hub it so easy to forget it is motor propelled, its not as viibrating over rough roads due to the heavy motor wheel so yes it is a great imporovement to cycling as you don't notice the motor is there because using the cycles gears the only time I would notice the motor is if I switched it off, all I can say is before the convertion I would give it 4 ouit of 10 now I give it 8 out of 10 and will gain a point when I get some Hydraulic cable brakes Zoom HD100 so expected to see a great improvement in braking and the only other fault I don't like the colour of the bike but not changing that so if it would of been a nice colour it would become a 10 out of 10 cycle. My batteries are 10ah with a 15 ah battery maybe arrange 45 miles before acharhe which is 35 mile at the moment but I have mine on the high setting all the time as battery power cuts out when cycle reaches 16mph its a waste of time to keep adjusting the levels. But yes it as given me the encouragement to cycle more as its peddle assist. Mike
@@michaelrowland6538 Thank you for the detailed comparison. It looks like mid drive is better for longer distances and for hills. I suppose those are the most important elements I need. I have a hub drive at the moment and I can get about 50-60km on flat terrain, but uphill it drains really fast. I put a lot of my effort in riding and use only the smallest assistance otherwise I think I would be getting around 30km. I think I will finish this season with the hub and try and work on mid for the next season. I supose also that I need a bike with good quality gears and chain etc etc when I switch to mid drive.
@@joaomarveloso1049 Every thing as its day including technology and my opinion the only thing keeping hub drives going is price a lot cheaper, you can get a hub ebike for a third of the price for a mid drive and companies like Swytch are trying to keep the hub drive alive. But its like records and cassettes then they came cds and we enjoyed what these systems gave but their time as concluded, the gears and chain on my bike is just basic nothing special, if you like your hub bike then convert that as you already have a battery and a cycle you can hide the cables and sell the hub kit you have took off the cycle. Its all how you feel but yes I am very surprise at the difference a mid drive makes, there is all kinds of rubbish going around mid drives are for off road and chain brakes, yes if a person is flying their cycle six foot in the air and standing up peddling you don't need a motor to break the chain it is how you use it. How many cyclist use their hub ebikes for off road fun? So general use it is down to chance use a cycle as it should it will last as ever since cycles where invented punctures and chains snapping as always been weaknesses in bikes. The truth is mid drives arw todays improved tech for cycles. Mike
@@michaelrowland6538 Thank you for your input Michael. What kind of mid drive kit did you use? I hear bafang should be a good choice.
I don't usually do two reviews on the same video but response to my comment as been very good but feel their as been a mix up of my interpretation what a ebike is, when I was young I would go cycling all over and to me cycling is slow transport where you want to go defently slower then a motor vehicle, but all the power in the bike was done by me. Some days I would avarage about 18mph and some other day maybe 10 mph depending on weather, hill climbing but everything was done by natural strength and I loved it and enjoyed it because if I set out cycling to the sea side it was nice an scenic and the travelling was a part of the day out as in a motor vehicle all the scenary just flashes by and only the seaside then becomes the enjoyment the trip is just long and boring even so its faster. Sadly for me my natural days of cycling is over as time goes by and we get older and obstacles get in the way and we miss what we once had.
An ebike to me as put youth back into my life I don't want a motor vehicle I got one of them and its boring but my wife won't let me get rid of the car, I had motor cycles in my time and they just like cars do all the work for you. I had a hub motor and I liked it and it got my interest in cycling again but I didn't love it, it never felt what I had before when the motor worked it did all the work, when my peddling took over I did all the work it didn't work with me it worked for me, with a mid drive I feel the motor is working with me it feels more natural and put the feel of cycling in my life again more natural. So Mid drive peddle assist does what it says assist as hub motors don't they feel as if they pushing or pulling you until motor cuts out, so for give me if I don't talk about high speeds because that isn't what I got a ebike for, I got it to give me what time as took away the chance to cycle again without feeling tired and worn out just going down the streets, the beauty of cycling isn't cycling to work or the shops but taking little trips in the country side and enjoying the outdoors.
To me the mid drive is more like cycling then a hub drive but the hub still provides a good ebike, a twin tub will still wash and spin your cloths as a automatic does but you don't have to empty the washing machine to fill the spinner the automatic does it without that. A mid drive really is like naturally riding a cycle and I only know its me not doing all the work when I turn the motor off and then it comes evident, if you want to do great speeds then a motorcycle is the answer but if you want to cycle when your old or overweight and have health problems then the ebike is your answere and if you choose a hub drive its better then nothing but mid drives give the more natural cycling feeling. For chains snapping and a hub drive getting you home when did a normal cycle get you home when the chain snapped? If your worried about the chain put one in your saddle bag I always carry a spare innertube which your more likely to have a puncture then chain snapping.
Benefits of the mid drive to the hub drive,
1. More natural cycling feeling,
2. Better avarage speed because can use cycles gears and not stuck in one gear,
3. Motor working alongside your peddling until restricted speed is reached,
4. Better when going over uneven and rougher service because there is no heavy wheel,
5. less chance of a puncture because weight isn't on your tyre
6 .Finally does more miles per charge with Hub I avaraged about 20 to 24 miles to a charge, Mid Drive I have done 36 miles to this charge and is just hitting last bar.
Benifits of hub drive
1, Purchase price
2. Chance of chain snapping on mid drive which if you have a spare chain with you takes just as long as if you had to mend a puncture.
Hope this helps. thanks Mike
Again thanks for your detailed explanation. Hope it helps others. Learned a lot from your words. Cheers!
I enjoyed reading your thoughts on mid drive vs. rear hub drive. I just bought this Giant Talon E 3 and received it last Saturday 10 Feb 2024 and I completely agree with you. A much better experience so far than riding on a rear hub drive. And it only weights 40 pounds. Cheers!
Like you say after 60 years old, I just need my Cannondale Tesoro Neo X ebike mid drive. Texas headwinds, no problem I can still ride without quiting.
Hi "Bike Zone"
I have build approx 5 different ebikes with directdrive-hub-, geared-hub- and middrive-motor. On my 34 kg Strada velomobile (weight without motor, battery, tools, and luggage) I have driven 3-4000 km with a Bafang 250W 80 Nm middrivemotor and even sometimes changed gear without the motor completely switched off. And the same chain have now lasted 20.000 Km (first many km without motor). So I think your opinion “the chain will snap instantly” Is kind of wildly exaturated !
Happy ebiking everyone ;-)
Finaly someone answers to my question of what happens when you run out of battery (or if your motor breaks). On a hub motor you can still pedal your way wherever you are going while on a mid motor you can´t. On a rear hub motor you can also extend your distance by riding on H mode where you use the throttle only when you need assistance.
Thanks for the information.
I can pedal my mid-drive bike and I had 3 different ones without power
You are right.... I finally decided for the mid drive. However sometimes I miss the throttle. Cheers! @@gardenadog
You missed the fact that there is a shift sensor which shuts off the motor during shifting. A mid-drive is better on very steep hills. You need a really large hub drive in comparison to a mid drive.
Thanks for the information.
That was useful. I bought a mid-drive. I don't mind more maintenance with the performance and handling benefit of mid-drives. I have a hub drive scooter and that rear hub motor has a ton of inertia when it gets going. Not super great for handling but yeah, definitely pretty bulletproof. I've had my hub drive scooter for years and it's still going strong. I don't think you can kill hub drives.
@Kiefer Shanks, thank you for sharing your experience! Hub motors are bulletproof.
What what? Internal mid-drives have less maintenance than a hub. Especially if you get a belt instead of a chain, theres like zero maintenance for several years at a time.
@@srobeck77 - Cool story bro.
Very nice and balanced explanation. In my opinion the hub drive is a better option for now unless you have plenty of money and access to a dealership for repairs. This is a big drawback presently. I think owning an Ebike for the average person would require some knowledge and maintenance skills due to the lack of available repair options. There just aren’t any local mechanics similar to car repair shops. Additionally a front hub motor is a terrible idea because the front fork is not designed to be used to pull an Ebike. There’s a good chance that the front fork and wheel will break off eventually.
You have a perfect point! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Because of the angular momentum and torque a steel brace is recommended for the front fork and sells on Amazon for about $10 to protect your fork.
@@ericscott6682 this is a great info. Thanks for sharing!
@@ericscott6682 I don’t know if we’re talking about the same thing. The front fork steering column can’t handle the continuous pulling force and if subjected to a lot of hard use can eventually fracture and cause the front fork to break off probably when in use.
Just go to any bike shop and they should have them by now I'd think.
Thanks for adding to the confusion of which one to choose.
That doesn't sound good :(
Hahahahaa
If your changing gear on a mid drive you just have to ease of on the peddling slightly so as not to damage to change and cogs. Some mid drivdz have shift detection
Thanks for your opinion. Stay with us.
Hub motors are not lower maintenance. They place a great deal more stress on the axles and bearings that are little to nothing more than a traditional bike hub. The spokes are shorter and lower cross so they tend to loosen. Most of your weight, the weight of most things you carry and the heavy heavy motor are all resting on these short, near radial spokes.
Mid-drives are no more likely to break a chain than a traditional bike. Mid-drives that are legal do not exert as much torque as even one human arm. You will get the same mileage out of a mid-drive chain as a traditional, you will just reach it a lot sooner.
You forgot to mention that mid-drives climb hills much, much easier and faster than hub drives. Hub drives drive only the hub and you can only help it by pedaling. A mid-drive uses your transmission, so you can down shift and often even increase power and speed climbing hills. A great example would be my friend's 1500 watt peak, geared hub drive that won't climb an on-ramp near as quickly as a 250 watt mid-drive in my shop. When you consider that most of my mid-drives are 500-750 watts and 80-160nm's of torque, that is quite aignificant.
Good observation.
Haha. I wonder where you heard your information from. 😂😂
@@JohnBowl14690 52 years in the business, fordt e-bike 1978, morethsn a gross of custom conversions, the only e-bike service fascility in in a 1.5mil MSA, dozens of hub drive rebuilds and actual riding experience on just about everything made including some seriously illegal bikes both hub and mid-drive.
I have never had to lace a traditional hub on a mid-drive e-bike. Have had to do so twice on legal hub drives this week alone.
@@MHH3180 - If you were the only one in the world that did ebike maintenance, I would side with you. lol. Today I use google. It tells me the scoop based on the majority.
@@JohnBowl14690 of course, everything on The Internet is true! There isn't even one bike reviewer that knows squat about bikes, muchless e-bikes. There's a reason 100% of my suppliers are moving to mid-drives. Rad is the only major name not turning away from hub drives. Velotric has developed a whole new motor from their parent company. Lectric has been adapting hubs to mid in an intriguing manner (hinted yesterday to adding it to The Expedition and adding gears to their trike mid). Aventon has been overwhelmed by rim failures and spooe issues. They too have introduced a mid-drive going as far as to suggest this is the future of their bikes. Unless you intend to break the law on level ground, hub motor tech is too far outdated to be taken seriously. outdated
From what I’m seeing hub drive especially geared hub drives are best if u don’t have a lot of hills or do mt biking… and mid is good if you are doing those activities..so both are good in their own way I think for a majority of people it’s best to go with a geared hub on a bike mainly used to travel on flat roads from paint a to b…🤷♂️ I have never had an issue with hills on a 750w hub drive but I hear complaints on the ones that are less powerful more power seems to fix most of the drawbacks of hub drives… my next bike is going to be 1000w geared hub with torque sensor and hopefully weighs under 60lbs
You explained many things. Thanks for sharing. We hope you can get your bike soon.
Yes, I think it's all about power and torque. Electric cars use gearless hub drives after all.
A mid-drive will let you go in lower gears, so if you're capped at 250watt, gears is a way to get more help when going up hills and starting from a standstill.
But if you're not capped at 250w, you can get a rear hub motor with 750watt continuous and peak of say 1500watt at 85+ NM torque, and you'll have no problems on hills and won't need lower gears.
But I think outside the US, a lot of country eBike regulations mean motors cap at 250watt and with lower peak power as well. That probably explains the interest in middrive motors.
Great summary of e bike drives. I found it very valuable
Glad it was helpful!
The chain doesn't snap instantly when you shift on motor power, I have 5500km on my chain and it hasn't snapped yet and as for weight management with hub motors, you have to take rotational mass into account too...
Thanks for the information.
Another massive reason is suspension, since suspension relies on the wheel being as light as possible, putting a motor that weighs 5x that of a normal wheel renders any suspension on that wheel pointless, in fact it makes suspension worse than rigid, since it now slams all that weight and inertia up and off the ground, so if you want full sus that's in any way functional a mid drive is required.
You have a very good point! Thank you for sharing.
You really think that 8lb motor makes any difference back there? I mean you can switch to different suspensions and besides that, Im packing any 50lbs of being overweight, so 8lbs seems pretty insignificant. Idk....
@@srobeck77 It's not a matter of "do I really think" 100 grams makes a difference in unsprung weight, that's why tubeless tyres, carbon rims and alloy cassettes that cost $1000's exist.
@@Effect-Without-Cause ok but im curious as a matter of ratio. Im packing an extra 60lbs overwieght =200lbs. How does 8 lb matter at all compared to that?
@@srobeck77 Suspension is all about sprung vs unsprung mass, In your case higher sprung mass actually makes lighter unsprung mass more effective. Higher unsprung mass is always bad though because of the inertia it'll pick up from bumps.
Look up "Sprung VS Unsprung Weight" it's a 1.33 minute car video explaining it perfectly.
Great explanation, thanks! Question... Will a hub-drive work with a mid-drive on the same bike with dual throttles? What I'd like to do is put the 750W hub motor on the front of a BeeCool Challenger, then put a mid-drive on the back wheel, Giving me both options plus AWD. Another thought, Is it possible to use a CVT on a mid-drive ebike? Chains are loud and they break. Transmissions are mechanical, heavy and expensive. CVT's are lightweight, cheap, quiet and seem like the perfect solution...?
Yes, absolutely! It's going to be a tricky job. However, it's possible.
@@bike-zone Thanks! Challenger is solid enough for 60mph... Did you see the Ola info I posted?
We haven't seen the Ola info you posted. We'd like to know.
@@bike-zone The Ola S1 and Ola S1 Pro are fixing to revolutionize the world. I want to get in line for 1 of these...! ua-cam.com/video/w3-1_OyqdDs/v-deo.html
@@johnw65 Thanks for sharing!
I had bafang mid-drive conversion few years back with shifting sensors etc - well it was powerful but it was not a bicycle anymore it became an electric motor, very heavy too also it eats aluminium chanrings and puts massive stress over whole drivesystem so I recommend change everything there to steel ebike specific components. Now I have sub 20kg rear hub cheap ebike because I wanted a bicycle that simply helps me a bit on climbs and does not break the bank.
Thanks for sharing.
Ive have hub drive for my electric scooter n bikes i been using it for almost 3 years n they r great
Great! Thanks for sharing your experience.
Very well done -- Thank You 'Bike Zone'
Our pleasure!
Hub drives can be a drag; the motor makes the back end heavy; if you have a hard tail; then the bike hurts if you go over a bump unexpectedly! ouch; get a shocked seat post at least! The newer mid-drive motors from Bafang have a motor cut-out switch for 2022-23 models that will cut out motor power during shifts (amazing) and it works great. I have a Accomile Cola Bear with a 750w motor and it has the cut-out; there are never any issues with power on the chain, and the chain does not fall off due to power on during shifting. This motor is inexpensive compared to all the other motors out there, and a better design too; better than Bosch now! Forget belts, and forget the issues usually associated with Mid-drives. My Cola Bear climbs hills like a Bear; very fast.
Informative!❣
That little 8lb hub motor doesnt affect how you feel bumps on trails or streets. One of disadvantages with hub is the weight distribution from when you're getting tossed around from side in heavy mountain bike trials and have to keep balance.
How about using both? Have a mid-sized, mid-drive motor for level-ground power. And have a small-sized, front hub-drive motor for hill-climbing power - and as a backup motor (in case the chain breaks) that will get you home from deep in the bush with night coming on....
It is very much possible. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.
Huh. I have both too but my mid drive performs much better on hills/ offroad
@@thisone3519 Thank you for sharing this! Mid drives are better!
Bring a spare chain and have it replaced every few years. Problem solved. Or buy a bike with a belt instead.
Is it the case that on a hub drive, you can’t coast freely like on a traditional bicycle, but you can on a mid Drive?
We like our mid-drive with a Gates belt drive.
It feels more like a peddle bike.
Very expensive combo, but so worth it for the zero maintenance and so quiet
You missed the biggest downside to the direct drive hub motor. If for any reason you lose battery power to the motor,you cannot pedal the bike! Due to the magnets interactions with the stator,( it acts just like regen braking). And any motor over 250 watts is impossible to pedal. And if it's larger than 1000watts it's impossible to even push the bike.
This is an excellent point we have missed. Thank you for pointing it out!
geared hub motors (small one) does not have that problem, i was surprised that wheel is completely free it rides like normal bike... you talking about gear-less hub motor (they are bigger) and yes they are hard to pedal...
@@britkasablja007 Thanks for sharing!
Wait what? My direct drive hub motor scooter has a 2000w motor front and rear. It moves just fine with no battery power. Bikes are different?
Not true. Only faulty direct drive ones.
I think you're handing out a myopic perspective of mid-drives. Not all mid-drive motors use a torque sensor. Not all mid-drives need "professional help" to perform much of the maintenance to keep them running. Not all ebikes require a proprietary frame that can only use one manufacturer's underpowered motor and small overpriced batteries. You mentioned the two types of hub motors but didn't mention add-on mid-drive motors like the BaFang BBSHD and their massive advantages... such as torque, throttle, adaptability, ease of installation and self-repair, cost, programmability, etc, etc, etc. There isn't a production mid-drive ebike I would own but I wouldn't ride anything but a mid-drive ebike.
Most mid-drive chain and drive train damage is due to what should be an ever-changing chain line from gear changing. Riders rely on the motor to grunt it out rather than downshifting. Coupling a mid-drive with a Rohloff Speedhub is a game changer. Absolute minimum drive train wear and fast sure gear changes with a straight chain line. The Gate's belt will be another game changer but it's a little more tricky with a full suspension ebike. With minimum chain maintenance I change the chain and rear gear every 3K miles or about twice a year, less than $50 and I can do it on the side of the trail in about 45 minutes.
I've been riding the same ebike for over 8 years and have ridden over 48K miles. Much of that has been with panniers and pulling a trailer on rough uphill surfaces, and I have never had a "heat management" issue. Apply only the necessary torque to an IGH and the motor can always stay in its comfort zone. We're talking about ebikes, if someone rides an ebike like it's a little motorcycle they are going to have excess damage and stress the motors regardless of if it's a mid-drive or a hub motor... but mid-drives are superior to hub motors. - photos.app.goo.gl/ADgC6oyPM2gyrCq27
Informative
@@bike-zone Makes one beg to ask why you were trying to *explain* something you don't understand.
Thanks for sharing. eBikes are environment friendly 😃
It's also good many people are getting eBikes as their means of transportation.
@@bike-zone no doubt
I mean, non-ebikes are way more eco-friendly if thats what you're after.
I think for some people, they just want to know that which type of motor is less likely to explode, HUB or Mid Drive ?
Hub drives are comparatively more likely to explode.
E motors don't explode. BATTERIES DO. ;0
@@bike-zone Boooooooooooooooo
Neither will explode. Your thinking of full electric cars that do that.
I'd want to get both with the mid drive as the main drive and the hub motor to be the emergency drive if the chain breaks. Maybe have a spare chain, who knows.
Hope you will get it soon.
If your worried about the chain breaking, maybe go with a belt instead. Or also, to reduce chain fatigue, pedal when you starting off instead of using the motor assist or the throttle.
in over 3,000 miles of varied terrain riding l have only had one chain failure on my mid-mounted motor EMtB. The split or master link failed. I had to push/freewheel home. Since then l have carried a spare master link and a spare chain in a frame bag. The advantages of mid mounting are overwhelming. The gear ratios are innumerable, my bike has 11. It will go up anything as long as there is grip. The power never surges as it does with a hub motor and it never keeps going after you stop pedalling. That feeling/consequence of the cheapo hub motor is very disconcerting. I have a full suspension bike so massive sprung weight would be even more off-putting. So, carrying a spare chain is no hardship in exchange for all the advantages of mid-drive.
That's impressive! It's great to hear that you've only had one chain failure in over 3,000 miles of riding. Carrying a spare chain seems like a smart move to ensure you can keep going on your mid-mounted motor EMtB.
Spare Chain and link, spare inner tube x 2 and a car foot pump. Always with me on a ride.
Hub drive is cheaper and no maintenance .
They always wat to sell you the biggest car with the most option's.
Same with bicycle's .
Keep that in mind
Glad you shared your thoughts!
Hahahhahahahhahah ok buddy. Then why is there not a single reputable company that makes hub drive ebikes and sells them to bike stores.....because hub drive is trash old tech
@@msawyer110 Hes the kind of guy that would argue that a used honda civic is superior to a GTR because of the price
Theres less maintenance on a internal mid than there is on a hub. But were talking about a motor that costs $400 more
Excellent analysis. Thank you !
Just another point you might find interesting with the hub drive a round trip which includes some slight hills I avaraged around 12.6 mph and just looked at my monitor now and todays trip avaraged 15.1 mph on the same trip, I believe the difference is use of the gears. Mike
@@michaelrowland6538 I see you had 10aH and 15aH but what are the voltages? 12-15mph is not fast enough for me on flat land to invest $$$ unless I lived in hills and mountains.
@@carrickdubya4765 36v but the motors we have a 15,5 limit here in the UK and the speeds I have give is in all avarage as going up some hills touching 8 mph and ccoming down some at 25mph but motors cut off after 15.5mph. My ebike is UK road legal and can't exceed 250w and 15.5mph and as to be peddle assist. If your in the US the law is different in many states you can have 500w with max speed of assistance upto 20mph and I would still say the mid drive is more superior then the hub because of the gears you can use as even a hub drive will not get you up a hill at 20mph, but because on the mid drive you can use gears in lower gear you will get up the hill much faster. You sound aso you want a cycle for a motor vahicle, I want a cycle to feel like a bike but because my age and health I struggle on a normal cycle but I still want to do some of the work and the mid drive feels more like natural cycling as I don't us throttle I peddle, 15ah will last longer but not sure it gives much more speed, but both batteries where 36v. Mike
@@carrickdubya4765 What do you want a ebike for? I want a ebike to feel like a cycle to do what I was able to do when I was young, I don't want a ebike to feel like a motor vehicle or to do all the work for me I want to be doing what I am able to do. I am 58 years old, 21 stone with heart condition. I have a car and I could buy a moped or a ebike with a 750w motor upto 28mph and register it and ride it on my driving license but I don't want that I want to cycle, mid drives give that feeling as if one is doing all the cycling, we know that isn't true and one finds that when they switch the motor off, but it feels natural and my findings is the mid drive is more suitable to my needs then the hub motor and far more superior in the legal restrictions my country as that allows me to ride my bike as a peddle cycle. 15ah gets you further then the 10ah it doesn't give more speed, when I had a hub motor my cycle with the mid drive does no more speed with the motor but because of gears it uses the motor better as one can go in higher and lower gears and use cycle better. Is 250w and 36v enough? No because i still can't get up the real steep hills only further up them because of the torgue but I have to follow the law and restrictions of my country until the law changes, but I have got what I am after a cycle that feels natural when cycling and very happy and never found that with the hub drive. Mike
Glad you liked it! Much appreciated!
Ok, this is funny I have Bafang Mid Drives 750 and 1000 watt with a total of 23000 miles. The maintenance is torture, since the power comes from the main sprocket, the chain and your cassette will wear out every 1500 miles to 2000 miles. You'll not be able to interchange those parts, you will exchange both cassette and chain with new. Now your good for another 1.5 to 2k miles, I have about 100 feet of chain 20 worn out freewheels around here. If you buy a good hub motor kit, install it carefully, it should be care free to 30k miles I guess.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts
Glad I found and just subscribed to this channel. I'm about to buy an e-bike and need all the info I can get. I'll research it to death and then make an irrational impulse buy. I'm old but crazy! Experienced Motorcycle/Dirtbike/Trials rider. Have also ridden bicycles regularly all my life. MTB too. I will be riding it on and off road in New England. I'm anal retentive about maintenance, upkeep and upgrades. I need a Brotherhood of Experts to help an elderly guy out! ... --- ... ! My 1st guess-Mid Drive- 1000w full suspension, Not sure of tire size but can see more advantages with 26 x 4 than a more conventional 27.5 Help!!!!
Glad you shared your thoughts. If you want to get a 1000w mid-drive motor now, that'd be somewhat crazy. However, you said you're crazy! And that's okay. The wheel size you mentioned is okay. You can go for fat tire bikes. The rides will be stable then. And finally, be safe.
Thats what I would go with is the 1000 watt mid drive with 52 volt battery and 26x4in tires
And with the 52 volt and 30 Amp controller you will be able to get up to 1700 peak watts with a full battery
Hi bro my bafang hub motor is 9 speed cassette and my bike is 7 speed cassette now I don't know what to do can you please tell me
Can you please name the exact model of your hub motor? First of all, is it a front hub motor, or a rear hub motor? It would be a great help if you could specify.
@@bike-zone it's a rear hub motor and the model is bafang G062 it's a 1000w motor and thanks for replying me ☺️
@@ayazalishah1989 You're welcome! You need to do modification if you really need to make them work. As we aren't familiar with the one you have, it's better if we don't share any idea. But are you sure you want to modify?
I Prefer the Hub Motor ? because if your chain brakes you can still get home If you have a throttle like I do on my Rad Rover Power Bike
Point!
if a chain breaks you can easily put a replacement chain $15 on the spot. If a hub motor burns out or destroys your spokes or snaps your dropouts in your fork you will be carrying your bike home.
great point!
Lol I dunno what emtbs you have been riding but your warning section about not shifting while under power will result in instant chain snapping. I do 2000' elevation in 20 miles. Changing gears whenever I want. Never had an issue. 21 Turbo Levo Comp
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Indeed thanks Michael, because that part of the video made me really worried of getting a mid drive bike.
The off the shelf mid drives are only 250-350 watts. What you have to worry about is the Bbshd 1500 watt mid drives that have massive torque. If youre in the wrong gear and you go full throttle chain can snap easily. Im not sure your levo comp has a throttle.
specs i want:
front: mid: rear:
333w: 777w: 1222w:
can recharging breake down
Could you please elaborate it?
I still say that rear hub motor is best for speed only problem tyres wear prity quick. But that depends on the person who rides the bike
Yes to ride if motor packed in but still moves it's acward to peddle gear less is best if you get stuck you can still pedal like an ordinary bike midrive better with belt mot chain if you use for going around town chain is OK of road for any bike is stress
Thanks for your suggestions.
If a hub motor and mid-drive motor have the same listed top speed, and top speed is your main priority, is there any disadvantage to getting a rear hub bike (the option I'm looking at is about 400 cheaper than the mid-drive)?
There is no disadvantage to getting a rear hub bike. In this case, if top speed is your main priority, go for it!
@@bike-zone Great! Thanks for the feedback.
@canadianroot, you're welcome!
Its not just top speed ,a mid drive utilizes gears better ,so it has much better torque than hub drives ,in some cases almost 1.7x better for the same power output making it much better for climbing hills .So if the bike is heavy ,your heavy and you have hills to climb your much better off with a mid drive
@@SuperTerryBull You're right! A mid drive motor utilizes gears better.
Can you KEEP the original front 3 ring crank and deralier with a mid drive conversion bike ?
Most mid-drives use a single front chain ring, but there are options for running two. It's kind of a moot point though, because you probably don't need it.
How do I purchase one?
I'm in Nigeria.
How much is the cost?
My choice is mid-drive. Thanks.
The video is interesting.
You can get it from ebike shop.
The vid is ok but it is biased towards PAS systems and DD hubs vs Geared...no mention of higher vs lower powered bikes or the actually ride sensation/characteristics of each system. I am only being critical because this was presented to me as a good newbie vid and I think the pros and cons are weak. I think the last 20secs says it all, "offroad vs commuting and all the preferences in between" Technical trail riders and Kid carrier cargo bikes should go with crankdrives(middrives)...anyone else who likes the Jetsons feel, has no serious weight restrictions and doesn't need to hill start with a load will probably enjoy a geared or DD hub. Just learn to patch tubes without removing the wheel and bring a rope to suspend the flat wheel off of the ground from a branch or what have you....and get out and ride!
Very insightful. Thanks for sharing.
Love it. Thanks.
Thank you too!
Revonte steeples gear and assist in the crankcase.
Thanks for sharing.
So many wrong and exaggerated comments here good grief.🙄
Most mid-drive bikes do not have throttles - if you need throttle hub drive is a better choice.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
You've gotta be kidding me. Yes they do have throttle.
@@justdev8965 they move the crank arms on throttle? like forcing u to make pedal motion?
@@troloo1508on mine you can have pedal assist or throttle...
@@justdev8965 all the mid-drives Ive looked at do not have throttles. I was told its cause the starting torque is lower the hubs, so they dont bother with it (1up Prodigy v2 and Specialized Turbo Como are peddle assist only)
I like the hub drive better
Thanks for sharing!
Have you tried both mid amd hub JP? Just curious!
My electric bike has a 750W Hub Drive motor with a standard 48V 13ah battery, and a 48V 21ah extended range battery. My question about the 48V 21ah Extended range battery that's operating on the 750W Hub motor. Will I be able to increase range and my miles per hour ( mileage ) with the 48V 21ah battery if I travel for a longer distance. If so how will I know if my mph has changed based on the distance traveled.
Not necessarily you'll se a change in mph. But the range will definitely be increased with the extended range battery.
@@bike-zone How would this happen, and what should I look for ?
@@calvintanner7897 while other factors come into play, like speed limiting and internal resistance of batteries, batteries of the same voltage will result in the motor turning at the same speed.
The greater range is a result of the higher capacity battery, so you longer range battery should give you about 50% longer range for similar speed, weight, and road conditions. HTH, John
@@johnemms6824 Ok, thank you 😊
@johnemms6824 What about Kilometers, will that change as well? Will I see a difference in Kilometers ?
Tenho uma MID DRIVE.... gostaria de saber se é possível instalar um acelerador ????? Obrigado
well, you can retrofit a throttle into your bike. But the issue is, you'll be struggling to fit it in...
It's all about use case. Somebody trail riding would probably think mid drive is better. Somebody who's 70 and has COPD will likely choose a hub drive. Or someone like my wife, who would rather have forks stuck in her eyes than shift ANY vehicle. Truth be told, you wouldn't want her to do the shifting, trust me.
We always trust you. Thanks for your comment.
SPOKES brake on rear hub motors. Big problem😢
Yes, it is.
A powerful mid drive destroys the chain and gears and it difficult to pedal along the engine wont to rev high but the poor peddler can not keep up
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I mean not all motors are made the same. Use the throttle only then.
hub drive less worries
You have a point!
it depends. if the motor breaks, you cant pedal back home like a mid and they are louder and more maintenance too
In singapore where can i buy
Which one are you considering?
CAN YOU PUT A TORQUE SENSOR ON A HUB DRIVE BIKE?
yes you can but it'll take a lot of hassle and you'll need a lots of gear
THX I AM NEW TO EBIKES NEED TO KNOW HOW TO GET A BIKE ROLLING FROM A DEAD STOP REAR HUB NO TORUQUE SENSOR PLEASE.@@bike-zone
I was wondering when this was made? It does not ring true. The hub bikes I see are much much lighter, do not look like ebikes and overall look normal. I have been comparing a number of hub drive and mid drive. All mid drives, every one weighs a whole lot more and I mean a few kilos more.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Can you be more specific and give numbers? I'm researching hub drives, and all of the bikes that are worth anything weigh 55-65 lb. Whereas, I do not know the weight of a quality mid drive such as specialized.
Huh? Hub drives have the weight of the bike combined with the weight of the motor and battery vs the mid drive motor using a much lighter motor from hub motors but also integrated it into the frame make the bike jumpable utilizing a better center of gravity usually a smaller battery idk what ya sources are
Hahahah the hub drive is better guy. Lemme guess....never riden a real emtb have you? If you had this comment would not exist
@@watchmanonthewall14 my 1000 watt mid drive and my 52 volt triangle battery weigh just about 20 lbs together
Hub drives are way more silent than mid drives... A must for wildlife spotting
Thanks for sharing your thoughts
Thats 100% wrong. Mid drives, especially with a belt is the only silent combo you can get and its not debatable.
Oh yeah 😎. Most people 🙄 who ride E-BIKES do NOT pedal. Basically these people want a E-Scooter with a SEAT 💺 🙄
You made a point.
uhh duh
mid drive bicycle needs at least 428 chains from motorcycles but all ebike companies has no develop power to overcome existing mtb parts. so better buy proper mid drive electric motorcycle than overpriced under engineered ebike crap.
👍⚾️
Glad you liked it!
Really annoying background music that just makes it more difficult to hear what you're saying.
We are very sorry for the inconvenience! We are now more careful about the bgm.
With a belt drive you loose practically the gearing advantage.
Agreed!
Wait, how do you mean?
That doesnt make sense because the gearing is done internally like on your car
What a load of craapola
heh??
Take this video down. It is totally inaccurate and false. First off, hub drive puts more strain breaking your spokes and putting torque onto the bike frame which becomes dangerous if u don’t have torque arms. Secondly, you can drive a midrive without using the motor. I can go on and on, I haven’t even got to ghosting in the pedal assist whereas mid drives have a torque sensors.
Of course you can change the tires and rims with hub engines, what the heck is he talking ?
I guess the added trouble of undoing the band ties and cabling to get the wheel off ! I know it was doable but i bought slime inner tubes hopefully to avoid having to repair a puncture on the roadside, so in answer to your question and statement of course its doable but in emergency not as easy.
Valuable insights! Thanks @Bergwacht and @Peter Day
@@daypet1 A piece of cable with a plug comes out of my hub motor, which I unplug and then removing it from the bike is just as complicated as with any other bike, it just weighs more. There is not a single cable tie that I would have to cut.
Okay, there's the extra torque lock, but that shouldn't really complicate matters.
Maybe he is also referring to changing the rim without the hub, but putting spokes in and out of a hub is always complicated, regardless of whether it's a 20-inch children's bike rim or a 29 inch hub motor.
Best regards!
Not more complicated about removing the rear wheel of a hub drive bike compared to non ebike. Only difference is you have to unplug the electric cable to the motor before removing wheel. I think he might've been talking about installing a different rim.
@@daypet1 It is literally one cable you have to pull. Not more.
Simply misleading and over simplified. Thumbs down. For those wondering why, they speak in absolute terms about topics that are anything but.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Mid motors sucks
Sometimes they do, yes!
Elaborate
if you want hill-assist, mid drive takes it.
Is it cause you cant afford the upgrade?
They forgot wheeling with a hub motor is ass
This covers the two pyramid points.
Then there are soooooooo many other factors when choosing an Ebike.
Before you buy an Ebike, take a class. Learn the info.
Test drive a few.
It's like electric cars.
So many factors that without education, you're shooting blind 🦯🦮
You made a great point. Thanks for sharing!
There really isnt any classes you can take. About all you can is talk to the local ebike shop guys and watch youtube videos (and shift thru alot of bias and non-sense hot takes).