My Thoughts on Positionals... FFXIV Dawntrail
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- Опубліковано 16 лип 2024
- FLANK, REAR, FLANK, REAR, FLANK, REAR!
Hello everyone I am Jmulls of Jmulls Gaming and welcome to my little corner of the internet!
Walkthroughs, First Impressions, Critique and Reviews for all things video games, by someone who loves video games!
In today's video, I talk about job design, fun, and positionals in Final Fantasy 14 Dawntrail !
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6:05 this in my book is another negative because as a tank i want more to do than keep the boss in one spot for the dps. I do it because i played 2.0 dragoon so i know the struggle but its damn annoying.
Removing positionals allow for more dynamic boss mechanics
I’m being honest I am a defender of positionals because if you don’t like them… you really don’t have to do them. It’s not that big of a deal. The real issue is positionals aren’t even what they used to be at all. They used to be mandatory and the amount of damage lost for missing them was crucial.
I am actually glad that they have become less punishing over the years, however the fact they ARENT punishing is the reason why people consider positionals to be not so satisfying anymore.
Am I asking for that back? NO. But I’m saying that even just 6 years ago, the boss moving and causing a Ninja to fail Trick Attack was very obvious and instilled in players the importance of hitting a positional. There is nothing like that anymore and therefore I just don’t care wether they exist or not
i posted in the subreddit and fought a 1v30 saying that the changes were gonna be dreadwinder positionals removed and gnb continuation range for ogcds and i think im completely right and these changes are good
dreadwinder has no reason to have positionals, the the 4 we have in our combo is more than enough and it doesnt make sense thematically since it doesnt follow the naming and color scheme the other 4 do.
I love continuation personally in terms of just hitting my buttons, but if it had more range on it so moving a boss with continuation wasn't such a dang chore, that would be great imo.
@@JMulls yeah thats what they changed, continuation has a higher range than normal melee skills making it easier to disconnect so im guessing theyre gonna to that with viper too
I disagree wholeheartedly. As someone who was extremely disappointed that Cross Reaping and Void Reaping were not positionals, this is basically the next best thing. Its only a 100p loss if you miss both, you'll likely only miss one anyway, and changing this to non-positional would actually make the job less fun. Let people have something to work towards and not simplify every single job.
@@BDtetra saying you want positionals on void reaping and cross reaping might be a sign of insanity mate, also thats not really equivalent at all, if 1st-4th generation had positionals it would be the same which sounds equally miserable. dreadwinder is the same as gluttony into your gibbet and gallows
i dont think removing them would make the job less fun because i dont find positionals fun, its that simple
@@KadukuTena Having less things to optimize is less fun for me. The back to back positionals on Dreadwinder makes it so Viper actually requires some pre-planning on to when to use True North, and have to find of ways of greeding mechanics. If you don't like positionals then dont simply don't do them, its only a 50p loss which is a minuscule potency difference if you dont like optimizing jobs in the first place.
If for example,. the primary 123 combo did not give you Death Rattle proc if you missed a positional, I would completely agree that that would need a change, but this is not the case here.
One of the really weird things that happens with positionals is the player has to read the tooltip to even recognize they exist. This is especially weird in Viper, which has so much going on with its morphing buttons that I've literally seen a streamer - I think it was MrHappy - recommend players just not read their tooltips and dive in following their buttons' light-up patterns to learn the fundamentals of the job. I think he's right about picking up the basic rhythms, but then...when is the right time to read the novel-length attack descriptions? And in a game like FFXIV how much are you even losing by ignoring positionals? If you stand on the rear corner of the enemy there's a 50% chance at any given time that you'll hit a positional. So on average you lose half the damage buff of the positional, thereabouts? Monks have a 1/4 - 3/4 split for their rear to flank positionals, so if they stay on the enemy's flank all the time they're only losing 60 potency every 12 gcds? Regular combats aren't likely to last long enough for that to matter, nor be that tight on their DPS checks.
My issue with removing positionals from a job like Viper is that, based on other changes, they won't be replaced with something that adds to the engagement. The other jobs just lose these small decision points left and right and it becomes boring. Viper is so automated, if you don't even have to think about where you're hitting most enemies, it's just another button mash job, it's literally just "follow the lights". It's the trend of every job getting simplified more and more to appeal to the least invested players when they don't even need to optimize, that is the issue. If a new player can't hit positionals, who cares? It's like 20-50 potency, it only matters for hardcore players because of enrage. It just feels like every job is being streamlined to the point of not being fun anymore. BLM was specifically changed to kill non-standard, so choices like that make it worrying for even simple jobs like Viper to be considered too hard because little Timmy might do 500 potency instead of 550 as ifnit even matters in normal content.
Yeah that's my main concern as well, while im not big on positionals as a concept, they are at least something that keeps me thinking to some degree, and if square continues to remove mechanics like that over and over again, you are left with jobs that have lost their sense of identity and cohesion in the name of making the game simpler without making it more mechanically engaging.
When I'm playing a job, I want to feel like that job and for the buttons I press to matter and feel impactful, if the game largely just plays itself, with nothing else going for it, then it becomes far too stale at least for me at least.
@@JMulls I'm with you, positionals are def not the best option but it's one of the only things left on some jobs that you actively have to adjust for. Here's hoping 8.0 brings a big shake up to the combat system.
Positionals just shouldn't be in the game anymore.
The fact some bosses turn them off completely is an indicator of being archaic.
There are ways to make jobs have risk:reward factors other than positionals.
Based and correct opinion.
i like positional but not more than 3 in a rotation there is a lot of speed pressing on controller when in buff window and worrying about if i hit skill from right spot is lot when they is like 6 of them on after another and the boss moves or spins . Old monk was fun during storm blood for me but now i don't know what to do so i dont play it in high end content .I hope it don't happen to viper also when i try extremes i do still need to learn some POSTIONALS on viper since there is so many skills to press fast i worry more about hitting the ogcd or lose it than if am in right side of boss
My argument has always been this, fights that don't have positionals are almost always more fun then those that do, because those that do have to be designed with Positionals in mind. Additionally, imagine if your job just had more going on, and instead of positionals the job was just more busy in general. Both jobs and fights could be more interesting without positionals. I don't like positionals, but only because I think its a lazy way to make a job more busy, and it can cause fights to either be limited in design, or be forced to ignore them entirely so the fight can shine. Unfortunately, I know SQE is to lazy to make this change, they would simply take away the positionals and call it a day, no complexity to replace it. Tho I do think they'd maybe loosen up on fights if they were removed.
I think a simple fix that would satisfy most crowds would be extra animations. Make animations for when positionals are done correctly, and make an animation for when it is done incorrectly. You could also include a sound for when you miss a positional (off by default - needs to be enabled). This would make them more satisfying while also helping more people easily learn that they’re doing something wrong or doing something right.
Just put a rabbit on their head, if they miss a positional like with ninja and failed mudras, lol
They could easily just highlight the skills but they'd need something that makes sense visually. So not just highlighting them as red and blue, but something like a little peach icon in the corner of the skill button to indicate you have to slap that butt
I just started playing viper and I’m really like the job so far. The one thing I’m having issues with when it comes to position is how do I know I triggered the positional correctly?
@@htiburon03 you dont lmao, i havent even been able to find a plugin that tells you
@@KadukuTenathe plugin I used for it hasn't been updated for Dawntrail yet, but it was flytextedit (or something similar) it would color the positional damage red for miss and green for hit.
We're those illegal chat bubbles I saw in the footage?? Tsk tsk, I'm telling Yoshi P 😆
I hope they don't mess with Vipers positionals. They really aren't a big deal and make the job more interesting... I don't find them difficult to pull off at all... and if I can't get one in I have other options until I can...
With as much as the new fights are in this expansion being oh shit run spazfests they just need to do away with positionals they are not fun. That and when you get a tank that thinks they should spin a boss like a beyblade it’s just impossible.
I like positionals for the most part, but they can definitely have some downsides for the dev team when it comes to fight design and class balance. This isnt really an issue for 90%+ of content in this game, but if they follow through with what they said in terms of making fights more challenging, then maybe that will include tighter dps checks in extremes/savage content too. If they got rid of positionals I think they'd need to do something else to make melee more complex.
After what happened with P8S, I highly doubt SE will be willing to make tighter dps checks for difficulty and will go for much more difficult mechanics to deal with.
People are just jumping to the worst conclusions per usual...
I don't believe for a second that they're gonna remove the positionals on Viper...
I think it's a HUD problem and it not being clear enough, eve as someone who doesn't have eyesight issues I still think the HUD is muddled and that the flashing on which side it is isn't as clear as it should be.
It literally makes no sense that positionals in and of themselves would be the issue, EVERY melee job has them...
This would be true if you only considered casual content. A DPS class being busy is fine, but 6 positionals is a little bit too much for optimization sake in Ultimates and if you are parsing savage, it is a clear disadvantage to other meele classes. If they take the positionals down from 6 to 4 it is perfectly reasonable, the range buff will also help for disengaging mechanics which Viper has no easy access to (Chariot mechanics). Overall this change makes sense, people bitching about it either only play dungeons or doesn't care for actual compeitive content.
part of optimizing a fight includes forced disengages and viper has some of the best tools to deal with disengaging a boss with its uncioled fury which is a raged attack that you can save 3 charges of as long as your dreadwinder doesnt over cap you have all the tools in the world for disengaging
I don't understad why you said 6 tho... yes there is 4 combo finisher but the greens and reds are the same so there is really 4 positionals 🤔
It was fine for Monk for a VERY long time.
People need to stop whining for once. The game already got severely homogenized, it doesn't need it more. The literal vast majority give ZERO Fs about garbage parses or Ultimates, why in the world should ENTIRE JOB IDENTITIES take them into account over everyone else?
Bosses with no positional requirements and MASSIVE targeting were already made cause people whine so much, just what more do you people want to stop bitching for once?
@@AzureRoxe It is funny that you mention that since i was maining MNK for savage content back in Heavensward when the class was without question at its most controversial time and i am tellling you MNKs back then were complaining about positionals a lot more than people just now with viper, so all that just said is completely subjective.
@@shimashima2910 Hindsting Strike, Hinsbane Fang, Flanksbane Fang, Flanking Strike, Swiftskin's Coil, Hunter's Coil, 6 total. 2 are combo starters, 4 are combo finishers, all are relevant for a swift rotation and specially a 2 or 4 min window. It is specially bad for the second pot window cause the window displaces for more than 20 seconds so you need to do some cooldown holding and resource management to hit the 6 min window with all your cooldowns for savage, the positionals will really be a hinder for some fights.
Personally, I have come to think the game has outgrown positionals. I don't hate them, and I'm not out there campaigning to have them removed, but I do think the game would be better for it if they went away and rolled the challenges over into the fight designs themselves. The game has evolved in overall complexity, to the point where it has outgrown them. Back in ARR and HW, the fights were less complex, and the scripting was more easily predictable. Positionals added a layer of challenge outside of the fight design itself. As the game has changed, and the fights have become more demanding and mechanics are often layered 2 or 3 deep, their is enough complexity in the fights now that the original pupos3 for positionals is obsolete. There is a reason the majority of other MMOs don't use them (the only one I can think of is Assassination Rogue on WoW), which is in my opinion that the fight difficulties are challenge enough to not need that bandaid in those games and imo FF14 now as well.
Yeah I think you worded that extremely well, I don't hate positionals either but with how little of an effect they have nowadays with them almost actively designed the game to minimize them with stuff like True North or just making quite a few bosses not even have positionals, they no longer have that design environment they used to have
From what I can guess is that the people up in arms with Viper and not seeing the change as an ok thing are the one that dont us it in high end content. If they did you will notice how often you use True North to bypass the positionals to the point where you wonder why they are in the game. In causal content you wont see the issue as most mechs in normal dont demand you risk the positionals. Its dreadwinder that is causing the busy feel of the job for some. Your basic combo has them but it feel fine there. If they remove it from the dreadwinder combo the feel of viper will not change. Look at old SMN. Few players played that job do to it feeling like you are playing a piano for it opener. The change had big back lash but left the job in a better state with more players playing the job. Viper skill is not in its positionals but seeing if you can keep up your pace without slowing down. If you fight a omnihitbox boss you'll notice no change in your job. Does that fight make melees less fun. Often melee player see that hit box and go " thank god I dont have to lose dmg due to mechs."
Community: There's not enough to do, every job is the same, too much ungabunga.
Also community: *whines about positionals and about everything that doesn't require sitting there and not moving*
I'm for removing positionals in this game. I've been playing since 2.0, so I've been through all of the changes in this game's history. I currently main RPR. Positionals in the current game are not difficult, they're not rewarding, they just feel pointless.
As of Dawntrail every melee in the game now has 2 GCD positionals (Except VPR, but VPR might be joining that club soon) and all you lose when you don't hit your positional is slightly less damage. The damage loss is so low, the average player wouldn't even notice it. Positionals in the current game just a dopamine effect in the player's mind.
If they remove positionals, please I want more extended combos, more oGCDs on fillers, a chained combo effect, successful combo stacks that can lead up to a new ultimate WS or Ability, more engaging mechanics on bosses and in Dungeons. I honestly think we can get soo much more if positionals are gone.
Honestly in my oppinion they should just get rid of positionals.
It's not fun and doesn't give you that much more skill expresssion I would say.
And the worst, positionals being a thing, I think they restrict how a melee can play.
They could design melees ways different without positionals.
Yeah if they do eventually end up pulling the proverbial trigger and removing positonals as a concept, can't say any tears would be shed from me, but personally I would want to see them experiment with something else that would replace positionals as a concept, and that can prob and should vary from job to job, but something would be needed imo
I hate positionals, they are annoying to do constantly and bosses a lot of the times are moving all over the place making it a burden to do them. I use True North as much as possible cuz I don't wanna even have to bother with them. I just wanna play my rotation and worry about boss mechanics.
i dont understand, there's like 18 other jobs that basically require minuscule to no positional management, why change a job you dont like to something that you can tolerate when many people are unsatisfied with the current state of simplified jobs and this is the type of thing that they exactly want when these players have no alternative?
@@BDtetra I'm not in agreement with making Viper easier. Even tho I don't personally like positionals, Viper without them would be so braindead since the class already plays itself with very few buttons. I still like jobs with positionals because I just like the jobs themselves. I would prefer if they made them more engaging in a different manner or like the video says, make landing positionals stand out with different text size or font, or even colors to make them feel good to land.
@@fruitypebs830 yeah fair, I don't even particularly find it that much faster than Reaper, and removing positionals would just make the job Reaper 2.0, even with the same "holding the 50 meter buff" thing for burst windows as well.
If it's too hard, play another class. Simple.