Micah is an opportunist. By 1899 the Van Der Linde gang is beyond infamous so it's closely guaranteed that he's want to join them. Saving Dutch in Crenshaw Hills was his way in and regardless of if he would rob with them the bounty on Dutch was a certain paycheck. And even the idea of working with the Pinkerton's truly is a wild topic because he still causes them so much damage despite "working" with them, but similarly to GTA5's plot, there's definitely corruption within the organization. Overall I think it just leads to the development of the game being stiffed multiple times and late into development + having to fit the story being a prequel and all that. (Good vid btw)
Yeah like he said in Red dead Redemption (the mission): "I'm a survivor black lung" Micahs goal was to make money and survive. He only cares about other people (or pretends to) if it helps him achieve his goal.
Arthur did more damage to Pinkerton's than Micah but still Milton gave offer to Arthur but he rejected, and same for John who did way more damage to Pinkerton's but still Ross gave offer to John to save his family he should have to work for them
I personally see it as he isnt any more loyal to them than he is to dutch but also how would the pinkertons know how involved micah is with plans like the cornwall killing, hes an inside man him being there can easily be chalked up to dutch bringing him and him obviously needing to keep up tye illusion he is loyal, its like an undercover cop in a gang they literallly somtimes end up in positions where they hsve to kill other cops or in general commit crimes cause they have to maintain theirncover it really when you think about it makes alot more sense why just cause he is a rat for em doesnt mean it makes no sense he kills pinkertons and whybit isnt an issue from their perspective. Plus the utter chaos dutch is causing with micah in his ear is making the ganh more and more violent and leaving more and more bodies making them a bigger threat and likely making it easier for them to get funding or attract more people investing in the manhunt against tge gang, tye attacks on the army could certainly open them up to convincing the gov itself to invest into their manhunt.
I still think Micah was the rat before guarma even though Milton said he wasn’t in the Saint Denis bank robbery I notice how everyone is wearing black besides Micah so the Pinkertons know not to shoot him
And theres a few second long clip in the Saint Denis massacre where he watches the pinkertons after they showed up, i think after hoseas death. There you can see in his eyed that he knew this was gonna happen.
Milton had no reason to lie; also, they killed Bronte which directed the Pinkertons to their trail. The Pinkertons knew it was only a matter of time before a bank robbery happened.
It wasn’t just Agent Milton who knew about Micah being the rat. In the final confrontation in chapter 6, if you stick around long enough a random Pinkerton yells out “Is that Micah Bell” this confirms he was known as the rat by the pinkertons and it means that Micah is undoubtedly the rat.
That doesn't prove anything lol if anything that proves the average Pinkerton didn't know about any rat. why would you be surprised that a gang member feeding you info is with the gang they're giving you info on?
To be fair he’s a known member of the gang with a tendency to make things end in bloodbaths so while I’m not saying your theory is incorrect just also plausible the Pinkerton is identifying a threat.
@@unionblue21 they're obviously just identifying a threat lol. If you have a rat in a gang working for you why would you call him out while raiding his gang. It's like going to kfc and yelling "is that fried chicken and chips"
What you're saying makes no sense, it actually proves the complete opposite. Why would the Pinkertons call out Micah Bell if they know Micah is working for them? That makes no sense
I believe there were zero "rats" for the ferry job or train jobs. Basically, during anything before Fisher of Men (or whatever, when you take Jack fishing). That's the point when Milton and Ross approach Arthur with their offer. Meaning, they were trying to obtain an inside informant at that time. If they already had one, why would they be trying to flip Arthur? They wouldn't. If the Pinkertons "got to" anyone, it would have to be after that point in time. That could vary a little, depending on the order you do the available missions.
Great video! Why Micah at least "pretended" to fight with Pinkertons was because Dutch was the only one who knew where the Blackwater money was hidden. Micah being the greedy one, knew he needed Dutch alive at least until he could convince him to take that money where he hid it.
I think the reason why the Pinkertons didn’t kill John during the Saint-Denis bank robbery is because they didn’t really have a reason to they killed Hosea and Mac because they knew who they were. Hosea is one of the founding members, and Mac stirs up enough of a ruckus to where the Pinkertons had to know who he is and Clearly they did considering they know his name, and told Arthur that they killed him and they killed Lenny because well Lenny was running at them, so they just shot him because of that the reason why they didn’t kill John is because they don’t know who John is when agent Milton sees John he asks who he is and that’s when John says he’s Rip van Winkle, so they didn’t see John as much of a threat since they didn’t see him as a high-ranking member and also because John was most likely cornered, and since John was cornered, he most likely surrendered, and since they didn’t see much of a reason to kill him since they didn’t know who he was, they just captured him
I’m my opinion, killing Cornwall was solely Micah’s idea. I think he wanted to play both sides with Cornwall’s arrival. If the assassination were to fail, he would reveal himself as the rat. Milton was present at the docks and he seemed to be the only one to know about Micah being the rat, so he’d likely order his men to not shoot Micah and instead let him help them kill or capture Dutch and Arthur. If the assassination were to succeed, which it did, the greatest enemy of the gang would lose funding. With the Pinkerton crippled, it would be easier for the gang to get money for Micah to take for himself when the time is right. Given how he ambushes Arthur in Beaver Hollow in the going back for the money endings, stealing the money for himself was likely his motivation the whole time. As for the staying with John endings, I think he went after Arthur before going back for the money to ensure he wouldn’t go after him and Dutch since Micah likely didn’t know how long it would take for his tuberculosis to kill him.
I think if anything, killing Cornwall only INCREASED funding for the Pinkertons. Cornwall was already planning to stop funding, but with him dead, his family and possibly even the Federal Government would be motivated to keep funding the Pinkertons to bring justice for the death of one of the most wealthy and prominent citizens in the country
Jesus, stop the mental gymnastics to fit everything to the Micah rat narrative, it only weakens your case because its can be easily debunked. The Cornwall mission is basically the game's way to tell you Micah cant be a rat, the gang member that knew about the mission were Dutch and Micah and they only grabbed Arthur due to suspecting a rat within the gang. For its profile, killing Cornwall went as smooth as possible. What does Micah has to gain from this to kill the money bag behind Pinkerton, when he could easily set up this meeting and sell out the entire gang leadership for Cornwall and walk away with money and a pardon (Cornwall literally yelled at Milton who shot Hosea without a trial about law confinement).
@@kaydens6964if Micah turns in Dutch there, he’s only garrenteed he wouldn’t swing.. the pinkertons weren’t giving him money to be a rat. They gave him protection, that’s why when they confronted arthur Milton said “you have my word, you won’t swing” Micah was playing both sides, he wanted the money from the gang and the protection from the pinkertons.. killing Cornwall was part of the plan to rob the train because if Cornwall was alive for the train heist, there would’ve been a lot more agents, but since the funding was cut to the agency, it made the train job go smoother
@@gjte2947 except if he didn’t turn in Dutch and was spotted during the following gun fight, he was directly involved in the assassination of Cornwall underneath Pinkerton nose. Think about it for a sec, if Micah was playing both sides, he would not involve himself in missions like this, there is no plausible deniability.
I'd also like to point out that Micah is wearing a suit that sticks out like a sore thumb in the Saint Denis robbery. I imagine that's him trying to show the Pinkertons who not to shoot. He probably planned that some time before the robbery to ensure he wouldn't get shot.
if he was working with the Pinkertons in that mission why did Milton say he only started ratting after chapter 5? There’s no evidence of him ratting in that mission. He’s just wearing a white suit that’s it
@@Waxyyy Yeah, you're probably right. The fact the gang had just killed the man who ran the city was probably the dumbest thing they could have done, seeing at they were going to rob a bank in said city.
Micah most definitely set up that meeting with Colm to have Arthur kidnapped. Just before the mission when Arthur and he were robbing the stagecoach, Micah is nagging at him for not wanting to keep massacring the Odriscolls. Micah was the rat 100%. He even had a bounty clipping for Dutch in his camp afterwards
@@Waxyyy after Arthur recover Micha give's Arthur a heartfelt apology and says he thought he was gonna get grabbed, and it was pearsons idea to meet colm
The game made it very clear that Micah is not the rat He would have sold out the entire gang leadership during the Cornwall meeting and walked away with Cornwall reward and a pardon. But no, this is not what happened. They also only grabbed Arthur so the rest of the gang have no idea about it because both Micah and Dutch suspected a rat with in the gang. The mission went as smooth as it can possibly be by RDR standard for its profile.
@@kaydens6964 Micah was the most loyal to Dutch and rode with him for years after. Obviously he was not the rat. Dutch being free confirms Micah didnt rat. Dutch was the main target of the Pinkertons
during the stand off you can see the pinkertons in the background. Then right as a shot is fired micah looks right at them. I am thinking if arthur did not show up micah would of turned in the gang.
If anything, I agree with Micah being the only snitch. Arthur had passed out the possibility that the Vanderline gang was getting sloppy (which is true). And considering Micah is an opportunists, he would be more than willing to bank on that. And then when the Pinkertons picked up Micah after the Guarma chapter, that was when he took full advantage of the desperate state of the gang.
I wish at Micah’s chapter 2 camp you could see a map with a bunch of crossed out areas on it, you could make out it is map of a town but it doesn’t fit any that Arthur can explore. However once you reach the epilogue and play as John you can cross reference it as being a map of blackwater and all the crosses were areas he had been looking for the money when he was supposedly trying to make amends for dutch
What really ticks me off is people sometimes talk of the "second rat" like they objectivly exist. No. It is just Micha, the rest of the gang may have lost faith but they wouldn't do that to their family
In my opinion best theory out there . Except I think he still was working with O'Driscolls in chapter 4 . In the mission where Kieran shws up dead Micah is nowhere to be seen
I don't think Micah was working with the O'Driscolls, at least for Arthur's kidnapping. Colm is just as cunning, if not even more than Dutch. I mean, look at his escape plan for his hanging. Two members in the audience, another watching with a rifle from a vantage point, and reinforcements should somebody catch on and intervene. The only thing he didn't anticipate was someone stopping them silently. Colm knew Dutch was going to have someone watch over the meetup, which is why he chose that spot in the Heartlands specifically - there's only one good vantage point, and his scouts could easily follow whoever was going to it.
@@VeraVemaVenabut why would Micah be so determined to take risks for the gang and not himself ? He is even putting himself in danger here, for the gang. He would never do that
Micah was always a double agent. In the Strawberry massacre Micah goes into one of his old associates house and kills them but before he does the associate states “that’s not my name Micah, my name is” Micah had talked when he was in strawberry and leaked out a ton of info. Once he realized his mistake in his drunken stooper he tried killing them all to erase any evidence of who he was but was arrested. After being saved he tells Arthur that he’s been a bad boy and needs time away from the camp. Micah did that to meet with Milton and Ross and tell them what had happened. But not everything that happened to the gang was cause of Micah. The gang was super sloppy and noisy. Constantly stealing and killing tons of people. During the Valentine Arc Javier will run to you and state that Bills been captured by Bounty Hunters. If we say this is part of the main storyline then we can assume that right there is a lead to where the gang is due to the bounty hunters missing around that area.
It must be gratifying for Rockstar that people defend Micah the way Dutch does. Dutch is the epitomy of persuasion, and if a character in a video game persuades the players despite contrary evidence, that's a win for character writing and acting.
Rockstar probably laughs their player base at still thinking Micah is the rat out of nothing but hatred when they deliberately put contrary evidence every step in the way lol
I always thought Micah was a rat since blackwater a Job that huge going wrong the way it did despite it being and then Micah getting in trouble in smaller towns like strawberry getting caught, and the way he antagonises the gang. Micah always screamed rat and the gang clearly didn't trust him and only Dutch did and eventually that was who Micah sunk his teeth in because he realized all he had to do was feed Dutch's ego
he wasn’t a rat in that mission, only after guarma he ratted. The reason why the bank heist went wrong is because the gang made too much noise in Saint Denis by killing Angelo Brontë
Here are some issues I found: -Pouring Forth Oil can be conceived and executed all while Micah is locked in Strawberry Jail. Despite this, the law was tipped off to the plans and arrive early. This is even mentioned in the papers, so somebody other than Micah HAD to have tipped them off. -There are actually very few instances in chapter 6 where Micah working with the Pinkertons could have actually been a result for their failure. Any other instances can usually be explained by the mistake of someone like Bill, or just poor planning. Also, a lot of other times the gang got ambushed because of Micah (like the Blackwater incident) can be explained by the fact that Micah, being a rat, tries to take the cheese every time (not the brightest bulb in the shed)
I think people give the gang too much credit. Micah was always the rat, theres no real doubt about it, but he is not the ONLY reason the gang kept getting caught. The gang story didnt NEED a rat for them to fail. The rat just excellerated their demise. Dutch was a lose cannon, and was honestly not as good as he ,and the others he convinced, as he thought. He was at lot of times extremely impulsive, had some very telling narcissistic traits, and most importantly never had a real plan. Even before the events we as players get to see, the gang was always in trouble because dutch was talking out his ass and was paranoid about losing his followers.
8:50 although the thought did come to mind because the first game John was the main protagonist and helped the pinkertons take down dutch so when it was first mentioned it was a good ponder question
chapter 2 Micah was in the jail known to the police he slighter half of strawberry village, there is no way the police will forgive Micah but Abigail was the Rat she explained the importance of Arthur the caring criminal and Micah the violent criminal, so its in favor of Milton to push Arthur against Micah in efforts to weaken the gang. and this when Abigail killed Milton to win her ticket out of the gang with John
Honestly, I would agree that Miach was just using the Pinkertons that way he can get the money because Micah mentions about the black water money a lot, and he was just sick and tired of it possibly
I think that’s another part of the reason Micah keeps egging on Dutch to head back to Blackwater. It wouldn’t surprise me if the money wasn’t the only reason Micah wanted to return to Blackwater with Dutch. Dutch and the Van Der Linde gang are pretty much public enemy number 1 around Blackwater. If you’re too close to Blackwater, you’re wanted by Pinkertons. Wanted posters with Dutch’s name and face are everywhere. If Micah was in league with the Pinkertons, or (if he wasn’t with the Pinkertons just yet) if he was planning to join in with the Pinkertons and turn in Dutch as a “peace offering” to save his own skin, then Micah insisting Dutch on returning to Blackwater makes perfect sense. Then, once the Pinkertons have Dutch, and if they let Micah go, Micah can steal the money the gang left behind in Blackwater, and nobody (not even the Pinkertons) would know.
6:02 at the very beginning of the cutscene ingame Colm talks about Arthur joining him and asks something like "whys an old gun -*like you*-(I believe he is referring to how Micah and him are alike if this theory is correct) still running with old Dutch, you could -*make some real money woth me*-(Micahs only ever been in it for the money)
@@Waxyyy Maybe he never really did, but didn't work actively, did Micah dislike Kieran? If he did then maybe he caused Kieran's death- maybe it was some time around guarma for many reasons
@@potatoman7594 They we on the same route the other wagon was in, could've been Micah just wanting money and getting antsy that he was left in prison, or maybe even right after this mission, after they notice how good he is someone talks to him and then Colin and him meet and start making plans, considering that that specific mission can take place in c2 or 3, I think i like this theory, and if i did more research, i would be able to come up with a theory about that. But I'm not a UA-camr anymore so I don't think I will
I think the best way to wrap up the Van Der Lind story is through a movie or TV show. It would provide a third person perspective that would allow us to see what the other members of the gang were up to while we were Author and John.
Of course Micah was the only rat. And for those who say he was a rat from the start, that isn’t true. He just tries his best to put the gang at risk and certain members at risk in hopes the gang break up and leaves only a few talented gunmen. But even still a large percentage of people still don’t understand micah as a character. People always debate on what micahs true intentions were In the gang and I always say the same thing. Micah states multiple times what he wants. He knew the van der linde gang were special with the gunmen they had. He wanted 5 or 6 gunmen and get rid of everyone else. That’s why through the whole game he’s tries to be nice with certain gang members. John and Hosea make it clear from the very start they don’t trust Micah so Micah doesn’t even try with them. He tries to be friendly with Arthur but then realises Arthur isn’t going to switch either so he then only focus’ on Dutch, bill and javier. Then brings in Joe and cleet.
Exactly, I made my first video on this a few months ago and I thought I should make another to really prove my point, a lot of people think other people were rats (which isn’t 100% disproved) but to the people saying Micah was innocent are just not looking at the evidence
@@Waxyyy Tbh I’ve followed the redemption series from the beginning and the amount of fans that don’t understand the majority of the characters is unbelievable. But anyway I enjoyed the video pal. I’m always wanting new Red dead content
4:00 im sure someones said it but thevpoint of that being there is to combibe with the bounty drop by milton when he meets arthur who has a 5k bounty. Theres no way that arthurs is higher than dutchs so its obvs an old poster, micah was hunting dutch then saved him and saw that using dutch was a better way to gain money than bringing him in and having a whole gang hunt him down
Micah was a horrible person but NOT a rat!! There was a rat in chapter 2 during the second train robbery which you can do while Micah is still in jail in Strawberry. You can read in the newspaper after the robbery that the lawmen were tipped off which is why they showed up so fast. The only ones who knew about the train robbery were John, Charles, Sean, Abigal and Arthur! John was most likely the rat the whole time which makes sense because the Pinkerton's find Micah and Dutch's hideout only after John does. Who else would tell them where it is? Sadie or Charles? No..... it also leads up perfectly to RDR1 where John is forced to bring the rest of the gang in when the Pinkerton's capture Abigal and Jack. They got tired of him failing to deliver so they kidnapped them to force him to finally get it done. John was the rat!!!!!!
I mean John said it himself, many times throughout the game. Even Arthur says it once or twice. The gang got sloppy. The world changed, the world evolved, they didn't. They kept acting like life was the same it was 10 years ago.
I saw your comment on my Mario Odyssey 2 video, thanks for dropping by. Man you should've told me you make RDR content, I've got a bunch of RDR videos, and RDR2 is my favorite game of all time. Keep up the great work man!
I would’ve but I didn’t want it to seem like I was promoting my channel, but yeah man I’m watching a lot of ur vids and there fire. It’s crazy to me u don’t have more views, I’ll keep watching 🤙🏼
It makes no sense for John to be a rat, but Abigail clearly had issues with the gang life and wanted out. It would make sense to make a deal of "I will give you them, but only if John.. if you don't hurt John." Milton would have no incentive to lie since he thought Arthur was going to die. He did have incentive to stroke his own ego by laying out how masterfully he did things. Micah didnt rat to the Pinkertons until after the bank heist. Someone else did. It seems likely that Abigail ratted them out for the bank then regretted it, likely when they shot up the house in LaKay while she and Jack were inside. Micah gave them that. They brought her in for more info, but she stopped cooperating. So she became prisoner and she was apt to shoot him, especially before he told Arthur who was her best way out. Micah was in it for himself, but not the first rat.
I’m not saying the abigail theory doesn’t make ANY sense but there’s no actual evidence to prove she’s a rat. We have her motive but we don’t have the action. It’s also important to think “did the writers of rdr2 intend to make her a rat? 🤔” cause in my eyes it’s a theory based on motive and speculation. Your 110% right about Micah only rating after the bank heist, it’s a detail many people don’t pick up on for some reason. But i believe ur wrong about Abigail rating on them before the bank heist. Let’s say she is the rat, why would she be involved in the heist in the first place? If she knew the Pinkertons were going to set them up, why would she even be a part of the plan for the heist? And the whole reason why the bank heist was unsuccessful was because Dutch killed Angelo Brontë the mission before. Angelo Brontë is a big name meaning the Pinkertons heard about his death and it involving outlaws so they go to the city. Then catch the gang at the bank. The gang were making too much noise.
@@Waxyyy As Silicon Valley's Jared would say: Meinertzhagen's Haversack. If you don't want people to know what's up, you continue acting the part. In fact, the Pinkerton swine could have utilized this by either Abigail telling them where she and Hosea would be beforehand or for Pinkertons to be actively looking for Abigail, knowing what she looks like. It's why undercover cops will commit non-cop crimes or why they let mobsters who are cooperating witnesses continue committing minor crimes - because it keeps the targets from knowing something is amiss. I don't think that someone would think that Dutch's gang would be capable of invading Bronte's house and kidnapping him - I doubt his body was found out in the swamp. A bigger force would have been assumed to pull something like that off. Someone ought to have told him. It is odd that John was taken alive when everyone else was shot. Charles wasn't caught at the bank and it is unlikely that those who caught him would have been working on a notion of kill who you see. While Dutch was wrong about John, pointing out that disparity was the writers' way of nudging you to realize that John was saved for a reason. Something was up with it even if John wasn't behind it. I think that if they caught Dutch there, John wouldn't have been sent to prison - that was Milton's way of telling Abigail she didn't deliver what was promised. You better get us Dutch if you want to see your husband again. Mind you that Milton wasn't an abnormality - Pinkertons are pricks. They literally slaughtered striking workers when hired by industrialists. They are an amoral force skilled in crossing whatever moral boundry to get what they want.
Abigail is the only possible rat in the gang She had the motive as you said, Jack was even kidnapped at one time. She was never in any of the shootouts due to not being a gun and Jack was never present during Pinkerton camp busts. She had no way to know about the Cornwall meeting, because the only gang member knew about this were Dutch and Micah who suspected a rat within the gang so they grabbed Arthur and only told him about what they gonna do just before the confrontation, it went very smooth for its profile and it was the perfect opportunity for Micah to sell them out to Pinkerton if he was the rat, and this happened after they got back from the Caribbean. She located Dutch's chest with a key, and sent Arthur after it in the end. There are way more evidence supporting this, and I will just stop here for avoiding long comment.
I think the Pinkertons found out the gang would rob the Saint Denis bank not because of a rat but because of Angelo Brontes death, I mean think about it, these guys chased the gang all the way to the south and now suddenly a major figure in a city who is known as, essentially a criminal goes missing, I'm pretty sure the Pinkertons put two and two together and since Saint Denis has that bank, the Pinkertons knew where Dutch would strike next, but that's just my theory
I think John lived through that arrest in Saint Denis because for Pinkertons, he was a relatively new gang member, remember how Milton didn't know him until Chapter 3 where they went to the gang's camp? Either they were planning on letting John go so he can rat out the gang or keep him alive because they just don't know the history he has running with the gang
@@Waxyyy When he’s been an outlaw for 15 years i would think he would be known at some point. Especially since Charles was also a known outlaw when he was only with the gang for a few months
@@user-hx6gs9rq7u I can say I’m an outlaw right now but if I don’t get caught, police won’t know me. John was never caught or identified by police, that’s why they don’t know him
I've never understood why Dutch didn't send Kieran or Trelawny to blackwater to get the money Kieran was never known as a gang member for them and Trelawny isn't an official member he just comes around at random times
He didn’t trust either not to run off with it, the only other person who knew exactly where it was hidden was Hosea. Even Arthur and Micah didn’t know where Dutch kept the previous gang savings
I though it was Gavin , I still think there might have been another rat in the game like Abigail but I probably been lessening to a lot of theory’s on that topic , but The only one That agent Milton says who the rat is Micah
Charles didn’t get caught, so you’re wrong about that. But still, I agree with you that John is most likely not a rat, even if we won’t ever really know. But your explanation is the one that makes the most sense amongst every other I’ve heard. ESPECIALLY regarding Colm’s trap, I’ve always felt there was a piece missing there, but didn’t know what, so thanks for your theory. I do still have my doubts about Abigail too. When you know Rockstar Games, you know that John being arrested in a crazy shootout while Hosea and Mac were killed in cold blood AND Abigail “somehow slipping away” isn’t just because of plot armor. So yes, you did change my view
Micah was obviously the rat. Not from the Jump tho. Even if Micah or anyone else didn’t eat the hang out, I believe they still would have met their demise. The whole goal was to lay low and get money. Every attempt they tried to get money either involved a huge shootout or a bank. The Pinkertons really didn’t need Micah to stay hot on their trail. Also considering the times could the gang not have possibly slipped off to Angel island and got to Tahiti. I’m not sure what the cost of tickets etc where back then, but I imagine the bank in Valentine could have covered a lot of the cost. Factor that in with selling horses etc.
Most unrealistic thing was trusting this dude of 6 months to start calling shots and be right hand man. But Dutch needed a yes man and Micah was there for him
When it comes to Saint Denis bank robbery and Abigail getting away I could totally see Hosea sacrificing himself so she could get away Hosea was a respectable man. Also I feel if she was the rat I feel Milton would of made some smart remark like “One of your rats are right here….” Also after the robbery I feel like she would of took Jack and left.
You know the fandom is starved for content when someone has to make the argument that the literal text of the game is in fact correct lmao (great video btw)
Micah knew sneaking up on the O'Driscals was a trap. (Hosea even said so) Also, players pointed out Micah wore a different outfit for the St. Denis bank hiest.
Me personally, i think micah was a rat from the start. I think he was playing both sides and while he may not have been working directly with them until chapter five i think he was purposely giving them hints discretely. And he wasnt loyal to the pinker tons it was, if the gang collapses i got immunity and if we get enough money we’d go to Tahiti!
The blackwater job didn’t fail because of Micah ratting. He didn’t. He didn’t research the job enough to realize it was a set up. Pinkertons set up the job and it was for outlaws to get caught. The gang did not
Red dead themselves pretty much confirmed he was the rat. He was the only one wanting to go and “collect” the money in black water alone, he had a Dutch wanted poster, and at the end of the game you can see a rat run across the screen before he walks out the door. That’s enough proof for me
Here's the thing tho... People often forget, that just because a character says something in a story, doesn't mean they're not lying. Milton had all the reasons to accuse Micah of being a rat, he is manipulative, plays dirty and has no mercy for outlaws. He had already interrogated multiple people by then (Molly for sure and probably tortured Strauss by then). It's not too far fetched to think that Molly might have actually ratted them out or slipped due to being drunk. Let's not forget she actually kinda hated the gang and saw them as peasants and scum, she only cared about Dutch, who was ignoring her. She's also suspiciously the only one to not get either tortured to death or sent to prison. Either way, I'm sure Milton gained some insight into the gang's relationships and he probably already had a vague idea of how nasty Micah was, considering his impulsive style... If that's so, Milton would be doing a big brain move and setting up a backup plan, by framing Micah as the rat. 1. He diverts attention from Molly, therefore keeping the true rat in the gang (the Pinkertons didn't know she had died by that point). 2. They tear the gang up from the inside, by generating even more distrust and he uses the ideal scapegoat in the process, Micah. Also Arthur and Micah were the highest and most well-known threats in the gang, considering their history. So by telling Arthur specifically, that Micah is a rat, he is guaranteeing, that if Arthur somehow escapes, the communication at the top will break down. Dutch can't really manage things, if his two top men are trying to kill each other. It's genious really. I always found it jarring, that Milton just busts that fact out of his ass for no appearent reason. Arthur says "I'm a fool" and he's like "Let me tell you about the rat, my greatest asset", it just doesn't make sense if Micah is the only rat... He's giving up his inside guy and brings it up completely out of context. It doesn't fit with Milton's calculative style up until that point. I also don't quite see how they'd keep someone like Micah in check after releasing him... Molly on the other hand had motive and wanted to see Dutch suffer for breaking her heart. But I do believe Micah could have been sabotaging the gang at times. Dutch's wanted poster wouldn't be there for no reason and honestly Micah's questionable decisions, like setting camp in a overflown, muddy open area, are just too dumb for me to accept. Maybe he was in with the Pinkertons from the start, Molly was a just the second rat and Milton felt the time was right to destroy them completely, taking Micah out in the process. There's also the possibility, that Micah really is just that dumb and it was Dutch's increasing "noise" that left a trail. John and Arthur imply this multiple times during and after the bank heist in St. Denis. I mean, messing with two of the biggest families in Lemoyne, Killing the crime lord that runs St. Denis, Robbing the Bank of St. Denis, supporting rebels in Guarma against an influential man with relations to St. Denis, the repeated accidental and purposeful run-ins with Cornwall, FIGHTING THE FUCKING ARMY?! Honestly it'd be a miracle, if they didn't get destroyed... All in all, there's multiple theories, that work. But I personally prefer the one where Milton isn't just a moron for no reason and pulls arguably one of the smartest moves in the entire story... It makes him so much more interesting as a character and adds depth to his presence.
@@marceloguia6107 So all of that dumb, long-winded argument full of "maybes" ends in a personal headcanon? Definitely a good analysis made based on thin air and more false theories.
@@KC.45 What can I say, I was bored😂 Plus I've actually explored all of those "maybes" I mentioned. The thing you don't seem to realise is, that there is no true answer to this one. The story just explores way too many possibilities and doesn't give a definite answer on any of them. Molly and or Micah could be the rat, there's plenty of arguments for both but then there's also hints from Arthur, that there's no need for rat at all. It's way too open and naturally people are gonna have favorites. The fun lies in exploring those loose ends to look at the story from different perspectives. But hey, I'd like to hear your answer for sure after that response😂
@@marceloguia6107lol so many people just take miltons word as gospel while ignoring the fact he's a super manipulative character who's shown to say things just to get under peoples skin. I'm a believer in micah being the rat but unless you just take anything milton says as truth which is just silly there's no solid proof for any of the theories
People who think Micah wasn’t the rat are looking at things the wrong way. They don’t believe it because Micah had the opportunity to turn Dutch and Arthur in directly to Cornwall, Milton and Ross, but what they’re missing is Micah was not loyal to the Pinkertons. He explains his reasons for betraying the gang to Arthur very succinctly: “I’m a survivor.” He probably got caught by the Pinkertons at some point, agreed to turn informant in exchange for not being hanged, but only gave them as little as possible to keep them happy while he and who he deemed to be the strongest of Dutch’s gang would escape.
For some reason everyone thinks someone ratted on the Saint Denis roberry just because Dutch ways "Someone must've squealed." As if the Pinkertons wouldn't just be patrolling the place where the richest person in Lemoyne just went missing around where the Van Der Linde gang was last seen. Like Arthur said, they got sloppier than the town drunk.
My reasoning for thinking Abigail was the rat before Micha is that after the train robbery in chapter 2 you can read the newspaper saying the authorities were tipped off about the robbery and thats how the showed up so fast that robbery was being planned by john and was kept very secret unlike Dutch's plans the only people that knew were John, Authur, Charles, and Sean and I doubt any of them were rats but John most likely would have told Abigail about that. There's also obviously all the stuff with the Saint Denis bank robbery that everyone already pointed out, her slipping away and John being the only one to get arrested. I think after that Milton double crossed her and that's why there was talk of hanging him and she stopped ratting on the gang which is why she was taken from the camp because Milton had a personal grudge. Thats just my theory but feel free let me know if there's anything wrong with it though.
Why would Abigail tip the authorities off on a robbery that the person she's trying to protect is partaking in, knowing damn well they won't surrender???
I think somthing people never point out is how micah acts upon being called out by arthur i remember picking up how when arthur says dutchs name just how quick micah was to also say it followong it up with think of the future he is trying to distract from the accusation cause he has no defense and is clearly trying to use the good will from dutch he has been building up to discredit arthur by playing it all off as rediculous. Even the drawn out way he says dutch its almost loke hes trying to think of anything to say that could bring dutch to his side, like he is playing one of his bits, doesnt seem like his natural self that entire sequence Also side note fuck how they kill off susan man it never makes sense to me how that doesnt immediately kick off a gun fight wjen micah opens fire, i feel it woulda been better if she survived for the pinkerton assault and like during the retreat into tye caves do to her age stops around maybe the bit where john and arthur start climbung and says somthing like go, im to old to be running like this ill stall them for you boys, maybe even have a mokent where john or arthur tries protesting and she uses her "grimshaw voice" screaming at em scolding em before heading off back at tge pinkertons, maybe even then jearing her die in the background as you make your decent. Idk just seemed like a lazy way to write her off by just having micah take a cheap shot at her while shes distracted and just noone really even reacting accept arthur tensing up abit like tge fact he made that shot makes little sense considering there was also arthur with a gun on him unless micah knew he wouldnt open fire for some reason.
Yeah when Micah was asking us about the money and he told Dutch that he would follow directions from Dutch that's hard to believe. Because one he burn down a house in chapter 1 and in Chapter 2 he got himself in a lot of trouble and in jail so is not a good boy like he said when we were in chapter one. So therefore he does not follow directions from Dutch he disobey Dutch's directions find burning down a house in chapter one and getting himself in jail in chapter two. Also in chapter 3 in blessed are the peacemakers a lot of people did blame Dutch for what happened to Arthur but there was quite a few including me noodle real person who's at fault for this I mean I did not blame Dutch for what happened to Arthur. From the start I knew I knew that Micah with the O'Driscoll's was planning on to kill Arthur we all know that Dutch and Arthur were pretty close to each other. But after some players did blame Dutch they stopped blaming him and started pointing their fingers at Micah.
I think the fact that there are so many contradictory theories about the rat proves that this part of the story is not well-written... Micah being the rat is just weird. His main goal was to retreive the blackwater money, and for that he needs Dutch because only Dutch knows where the stash is. So it would make no sense to betray Dutch if you desperately need him. This is why he kept agreeing with Dutch and slipped more ideas into his head to become his new favorite. Betraying the gang only ruins his reputation in Dutch's eyes, we see that Dutch leaves him after the fight with Arthur, so what was the point of all this? Also, he doesn't seem like the type who would ever work with the law, we see in the epilogue that he's still a gangster and that he likes it. And I don't see any reason for Pinkertons to get the most notorious gang member and be like "hey that guy can work for us, the one who kills and robs the most"... I think that the rat stuff was thrown in the game just to make a simple excuse for Micah being the final boss, as if you couldn't have done that better... I would be fine with Micah betraying Dutch AFTER they get the money from blackwater, that way he gets all the money and has guaranteed freedom, but betraying Dutch before that is just stupid and out of character.
I don't think micah teamed up with the odriscols, because at the moment he still had some respect for arthur, and as Milton said, Dutch is the one that's worth the risk. And if he really wanted to kill or capture Dutch he would do it on the way back.
why was Arthur caught by the O’Driscolls in the first place? 🤔 to get the gang to the o’Driscoll camp to get Arthur but of course they would be met with Pinkertons. Why didn’t the O’Driscolls get Dutch instead? Because if they had gotten Dutch that would mean the rest of the other gang members would’ve left. The Pinkertons don’t just want Dutch. They want everyone. Maybe not every single person but all the outlaws so most of all the men in the gang. Hoseas, bill, Javier, and sean all have bounties as well as Dutch. Micah met with the O’Driscolls to come up with a plan to make it seem like they wanted a parlay, but instead they wanted to grab Arthur to take him to a camp, then Dutch and the gang would show up trying to get Arthur but instead the gang get caught by the Pinkertons. Then Micah would get his cut from dutches bounty from the O’Driscolls from the Pinkertons and he would good, that was his plan anyway but it would’ve have went like that but who knows. That’s my theory I encourage you to try to debunk it
@@PabloReiVi if he would’ve revealed that, that would mean the whole story would’ve went differently. Just why is Micah acting so suspicious in that mission? Explain that to me
@@Waxyyy In chapter 2, 3 and 4, Micah was gaining Dutch's trust, a parley with old enemies would be one of his attempts to get more trust. And remember, in chapter 3 Milton himself said that he wanted only Dutch, atleast on that point. Another thing, Micah is a survivor, he only does things that benefit him, so there’s was no reason to betray the gang on that point since that would not benefit him at all, he betrays the gang in chapter 6 only because he was captured after he came back from Guarma.
I really enjoy theorizing on very aspects of the game, but from a storytelling perspective it TELLS you that Micah is the rat, it is not ambiguous information!
Micah already being at Lakay faster than the others doesn't make sense as Milton said he was "picked up" after getting back from Guarma. What did they just meet for a few minutes? Doesn't make sense. He would have been picked up and held for a while and then talked and made a deal. That doesn't happen fast. Micah would have been the last one to get to Lakay. He was horrible but not a rat.
Hear me out it was Abigail. Number 1 she conveniently had Arthur take Jack fishing when Milton approached Arthur, basically ensuring Arthur wouldn’t kill him. Then somehow she got away at Saint Denis but not Hosea? And why didn’t they kill John at the prison?
Initially, I genuinely liked Micah throughout the game until the unexpected revelation that he was a cunning informant. This twist from Rockstar took me by surprise. Despite his unpleasant demeanor, I must admit that Arthur, too, had his flaws, making them an effective team.
the biggest evidence against john or abigail being rats is just the events of rdr1. if the pinkertons already had a relationship with one of both of them why would they kidnap abigail? or why would they force john to do things he didn't want to do instead of just getting more info from him? just wouldn't make sense.
The issue with proving anything about the rat situation is that we only have 2 sources of info on it or technically 3 but none of them are very trustworthy. We have milton obviously but he was already shown to be twisted and willing to say things to get into peoples heads like when he first confronts arthur. Then we have dutch who was convinced of the presence of a rat even before micah was supposedly working for milton. Lastly we have arthur but hes just parroting what milton had already told him which we have no way of actually confirming. We know that regardless of whether or not there was a rat theyd still have tons of heat on them because like arthur said himself they got sloppy and only got more sloppy as dutch spiralled out of control. Basically we have no way of knowing if there was a rat unless we assume milton was telling the truth. I personally believe micah was the rat like milton said but its definitely debatable whether or not he was one. Regardless though micah was almost entirely responsible for the gangs fall since he was the one pushing for all the loud sloppy jobs.
Well in the vid I explain that Micah only does things based off money and personal gain. Sooooo why would he want peace with the O’Driscolls? 0 personnel gain there. Unless he talked to them about turning Dutch in, it makes perfect sense for the story down to the fact pearson suggested the idea to Dutch to make it look like it wasn’t Micah’s fault, of course I think Micah went to the O’Driscolls, they came up with a plan to turn Dutch in and than confronted Pearson. That’s the main point I made in the vid proving he was a rat. Not based on a theory with no evidence and evidence contradicting it (PVP cats vid) simple fellowing and understanding what the story is telling us by knowing these characters good enough to know their goal in the gang. Micah never wanted to rat but he likes money. As for Milton, he has 0 reason to lie in his position, he has Arthur ready to kill him and send Abigail and Sadie off to prison. People say “he did it to through the gang off” bruh he was planning on no one in that room escaping but HIM. Was he planning to die? Nah man fellow the story and stop coming up with these bad theories to misinform people about the story. Some people liked Micah so they like to think “Maybe he wasn’t a bad guy” but no, he was a bad person and a rat but u can still like him as a character. Not a person, a character in a video game. Thats my take and that’s why Micah was a rat. As for other members, it’s a possibility but the game doesn’t tell us much about other rats. Hope u understand and love ya comment 🤙🏼
@@Waxyyy that whole reasoning with micah is just conjecture again all we know for sure is that milton says micah started ratting after guarma. The situation can also just as easily be reasoned as micah gaining dutchs trust so he can get his hands on the Blackwater loot which we see happening throughout the story it fits with micahs stated and shown motivations. There's this thing called occams razor but let's just ignore that for now since regardless we're still left with 2 theories with no actual evidence other than ifs and buts. Let's focus on milton for now you ask what reason he'd have to lie to arthur but as I already said he's been well established as a man that likes to get under peoples skin, he had nothing to gain from angering arthur earlier in the story but he does it there anyway and he also has nothing to gain from killing hosea when he's already captured and could be a bargaining tool or used to get info but he did it anyway. Why are you so focused on micahs motivation while completely ignoring Miltons established character? if we're taking the word of milton at face value despite his info never being actually confirmed and his established character being one that likes to do things just to get under arthur/dutches skin why not take micahs word at face value to? No I'm not defending micah as a person he's objectively a evil person what I'm defending is him being the rat or not. Rockstar went out of their way to never give any actual confirmation, have the only person to state micahs a rat be untrustworthy, have plausible deniability for micah in any situation where the gang may have been ratted out while still giving enough hints to rouse suspicion. It's the video game equivalent of the briefcase from pulp fiction it's purposely left to audience interpretation all we know for sure about what's in the case is that it gives off a gold light just like how all we know for sure about the rat situation is that milton says it's micah. Assuming anything else is just conjecture
@@jebbryant6522yeah I understand that Milton is the only 110% proof that Micah is a rat and overall he might not be trustworthy, and I say Milton was just doing his job. He killed Hosea because he already warn the gang that if they didn’t stop bad things will happen and it did. Not saying Milton is a good person but saying he’s someone who is doing his job, sure he would gain nothing from telling Arthur but he likes the satisfaction of telling him. I told my theory and u can’t just dismiss it by saying “Micah wanted Dutch’s trust” or whatever, it’s such an obvious phot point that Micah ratted in chapter 3. At that time micah didn’t care about Dutch he cared about money. The only reason why he started talking to Dutch is because the pinkertons might’ve told him too. I don’t have definitive proof that Micah ratted in chapter 3 but it’s so obvious, why did Micah care so much about making peace with the o’Driscolls when it didn’t benefit him an any way. He didn’t care about Dutch trusting him, he care about money so his plan was to turn him in. Why was Dutch’s bounty poster at Micah’s camp? It’s almost like the game is trying to tell us something. If my theory is correct and he did rat in chapter 3 what makes him not a rat in chapter 6? He ratted before why wouldn’t he again? There’s too many questions in my theory that u can’t chuck them up to being false because the game doesn’t definitively tells us. Dutch: MiCaH iS A rAT. That doesn’t need to happen for this theory to work. The game provides us hints and expects us to know Micah’s aspirations. He doesn’t care about Dutch or the gang he just wants money. That’s why he ratted in chapter 3, he wanted Dutch’s bounty. My theory does sound more plausible than Milton lied for no reason other than to fuck with Arthur who he was about to kill. The game try’s to tell us throughout the story, finding Dutch’s bounty poster at his camp and him in chapter 3. The writers didn’t just make Micah all of a sudden care about the gang and Dutch in chapter 3. They wrote that mission with Micah being a rat in mind, how can I prove this? I’m thinking of getting Micah’s actor to look at my theory cause he’s someone who can say if Micah was a rat in that Mission. I see ur point and respect your opinion. Sorry if it sounded like I’m angry or smt just having a simple debate. No hard feelings tho 🙏
I think there were many rats but the biggest was micah. It was so heavily foreshadowed its laughible literally when he exist his tent a rat scurrys out lol.also i think its obvious Abigail was an informat in order to save her family at everyone elses expense.i wouldn't even doubt dutch being a false outlaw recruiter on the behalf of the government.think about it he was leader of the gang and only had a thousand dollar bounty while author had one for 5 grand.not to mention dutch is always the one shattering any opportunity for escaping the law.and despite his reckless behavior he survives thru rdr2 and a majority of rdr1 story while every lesser member meets an untimely demise.😮😢
I think you're reaching. What actual proof do you have for Abigail? Because the train roberry theory is dumb, because why would she tip them off about a roberry that the person she wants to protect is partaking in?
@@LIZARDOPIA mac callander was a character who died before the story from a Pinkerton, I was referring to the fact the Pinkertons didn’t let him live but let John live, I then talk about whatever or not John was the rat. I wasn’t referring to Lenny but yes Lenny also does that same way but the Pinkertons had to kill Lenny because the gang was right behind him. So my point stands
I think that Micah started talking to the Pinkertons after Guarma, like Milton said, but I think Micah always wanted to take down Dutch. In Chapter 2, when we find Dutch's bounty poster at Micah's camp, it's only 1,000 dollars, meaning it's an old poster, since Arthur's bounty in that same chapter is 5,000. Dutch's bounty must have been at least 10,000 in chapter 2. I think Micah wanted to infiltrate the gang and turn in Dutch way before the events of RDR2. Everything Micah did was for himself. He "saved" Dutch and gained his trust, then he put the idea of the Blackwater heist into Dutch's head because he wanted the money. In Chapter 3, when he betrayed the gang for the first time (arranging the meeting with Colm), he wanted Arthur to either be captured or killed, since Arthur was an obstacle for Micah's manipulation of Dutch. In Chapter 4, he was on his best behavior, like you said because he wanted money and when that failed, he then ratted to the Pinkertons. He truly is the most evil and despicable villain in video game history.
What reputation? John’s a rat in RDR1, he might as well be the rat in RDR2 also. Since he is weak, he has Abigail and Jack as weakness, so he is easily manipulable!
John Marston is not a rat in RDR1. He's the government's dog but he didn't snitched on anyone. If he wasn't part of Bill's gang then how did John rat on them? That logic has a big hole. Edit: And he meant that John Marston has a reputation as a beloved character in the community.
That’s true, but it’s a 100% fact that agent Ross has Johns family collective, it’s not a fact that john is working for them in rdr2. At that point in the story, john starts killing his old gang members because they betrayed him, leaving him for dead, so in a way he doesn’t care who it is he has to kill, he’s killing them for his real family
@@KC.45 he’s a rat, regardless. Think about Tekashi69. Doesn’t matter if they weren’t his friends or not. A real man stays silent, does his time or die honorably. Only rats become government lapdogs.
@@Chris.Morales Well not a rat but a backstabber (rat is when you give them information about them, Agent Ross already had information about the gang), even tho the gang backstabbed him a long time before, he’s being a backstabber for noble cause, his family and I think all red dead fans respects him for that
@@Chris.Morales My brother in christ if i had to chose between killing/capturing Bill and Dutch or getting me and my family killed, I'll do it, he's not considered "a rat", he ratted out who exactly? People he wants nothing to do with and fucked him and a bunch of people over Dutch's 10.000iq plan?
Ngl I believe it’s micha and molly. The fact when Arthur says “you mean molly” after Milton says Micah bell and he just goes “no no no we’ve shaked her a few times that’s it” yet she never brought it up anywhere else in teh game. Yeah Micah was a rat but i believe Molly gave away Dutch instead on the gang will Micah gave up the gang but not Dutch. Sorry for long comment
Micah is an opportunist. By 1899 the Van Der Linde gang is beyond infamous so it's closely guaranteed that he's want to join them. Saving Dutch in Crenshaw Hills was his way in and regardless of if he would rob with them the bounty on Dutch was a certain paycheck. And even the idea of working with the Pinkerton's truly is a wild topic because he still causes them so much damage despite "working" with them, but similarly to GTA5's plot, there's definitely corruption within the organization. Overall I think it just leads to the development of the game being stiffed multiple times and late into development + having to fit the story being a prequel and all that. (Good vid btw)
Yeah like he said in Red dead Redemption (the mission): "I'm a survivor black lung" Micahs goal was to make money and survive. He only cares about other people (or pretends to) if it helps him achieve his goal.
Arthur did more damage to Pinkerton's than Micah but still Milton gave offer to Arthur but he rejected, and same for John who did way more damage to Pinkerton's but still Ross gave offer to John to save his family he should have to work for them
I personally see it as he isnt any more loyal to them than he is to dutch but also how would the pinkertons know how involved micah is with plans like the cornwall killing, hes an inside man him being there can easily be chalked up to dutch bringing him and him obviously needing to keep up tye illusion he is loyal, its like an undercover cop in a gang they literallly somtimes end up in positions where they hsve to kill other cops or in general commit crimes cause they have to maintain theirncover it really when you think about it makes alot more sense why just cause he is a rat for em doesnt mean it makes no sense he kills pinkertons and whybit isnt an issue from their perspective. Plus the utter chaos dutch is causing with micah in his ear is making the ganh more and more violent and leaving more and more bodies making them a bigger threat and likely making it easier for them to get funding or attract more people investing in the manhunt against tge gang, tye attacks on the army could certainly open them up to convincing the gov itself to invest into their manhunt.
I still think Micah was the rat before guarma even though Milton said he wasn’t in the Saint Denis bank robbery I notice how everyone is wearing black besides Micah so the Pinkertons know not to shoot him
And theres a few second long clip in the Saint Denis massacre where he watches the pinkertons after they showed up, i think after hoseas death. There you can see in his eyed that he knew this was gonna happen.
yeah, this is something I've had kicking around in my head for a while (the white suit thing)
@@noenzu4760that’s just theory and no propf
Milton had no reason to lie; also, they killed Bronte which directed the Pinkertons to their trail. The Pinkertons knew it was only a matter of time before a bank robbery happened.
@@amethystxyz or maybe Bronte told the pinkertons since durch happily told their names
It wasn’t just Agent Milton who knew about Micah being the rat. In the final confrontation in chapter 6, if you stick around long enough a random Pinkerton yells out “Is that Micah Bell” this confirms he was known as the rat by the pinkertons and it means that Micah is undoubtedly the rat.
That doesn't prove anything lol if anything that proves the average Pinkerton didn't know about any rat. why would you be surprised that a gang member feeding you info is with the gang they're giving you info on?
To be fair he’s a known member of the gang with a tendency to make things end in bloodbaths so while I’m not saying your theory is incorrect just also plausible the Pinkerton is identifying a threat.
@@unionblue21 they're obviously just identifying a threat lol. If you have a rat in a gang working for you why would you call him out while raiding his gang. It's like going to kfc and yelling "is that fried chicken and chips"
@@jebbryant6522 thet was funny as hell 😂
What you're saying makes no sense, it actually proves the complete opposite. Why would the Pinkertons call out Micah Bell if they know Micah is working for them? That makes no sense
I believe there were zero "rats" for the ferry job or train jobs. Basically, during anything before Fisher of Men (or whatever, when you take Jack fishing). That's the point when Milton and Ross approach Arthur with their offer. Meaning, they were trying to obtain an inside informant at that time. If they already had one, why would they be trying to flip Arthur? They wouldn't.
If the Pinkertons "got to" anyone, it would have to be after that point in time. That could vary a little, depending on the order you do the available missions.
It’s Abigail. Who sent them fishing.
@@RobXbNot true, Abigail just asked Arthur to do something with Jack, she never mentioned fishing or the river.
@@heinrichvonschnitzel8600 it was that crooked bitch Abbigail
Great video! Why Micah at least "pretended" to fight with Pinkertons was because Dutch was the only one who knew where the Blackwater money was hidden. Micah being the greedy one, knew he needed Dutch alive at least until he could convince him to take that money where he hid it.
I think the reason why the Pinkertons didn’t kill John during the Saint-Denis bank robbery is because they didn’t really have a reason to they killed Hosea and Mac because they knew who they were. Hosea is one of the founding members, and Mac stirs up enough of a ruckus to where the Pinkertons had to know who he is and Clearly they did considering they know his name, and told Arthur that they killed him and they killed Lenny because well Lenny was running at them, so they just shot him because of that the reason why they didn’t kill John is because they don’t know who John is when agent Milton sees John he asks who he is and that’s when John says he’s Rip van Winkle, so they didn’t see John as much of a threat since they didn’t see him as a high-ranking member and also because John was most likely cornered, and since John was cornered, he most likely surrendered, and since they didn’t see much of a reason to kill him since they didn’t know who he was, they just captured him
They shot Lenny because he was bl-
@@bushkingdom2371 you’re probably right there💀
I’m my opinion, killing Cornwall was solely Micah’s idea. I think he wanted to play both sides with Cornwall’s arrival. If the assassination were to fail, he would reveal himself as the rat. Milton was present at the docks and he seemed to be the only one to know about Micah being the rat, so he’d likely order his men to not shoot Micah and instead let him help them kill or capture Dutch and Arthur. If the assassination were to succeed, which it did, the greatest enemy of the gang would lose funding. With the Pinkerton crippled, it would be easier for the gang to get money for Micah to take for himself when the time is right. Given how he ambushes Arthur in Beaver Hollow in the going back for the money endings, stealing the money for himself was likely his motivation the whole time. As for the staying with John endings, I think he went after Arthur before going back for the money to ensure he wouldn’t go after him and Dutch since Micah likely didn’t know how long it would take for his tuberculosis to kill him.
I think if anything, killing Cornwall only INCREASED funding for the Pinkertons. Cornwall was already planning to stop funding, but with him dead, his family and possibly even the Federal Government would be motivated to keep funding the Pinkertons to bring justice for the death of one of the most wealthy and prominent citizens in the country
Jesus, stop the mental gymnastics to fit everything to the Micah rat narrative, it only weakens your case because its can be easily debunked.
The Cornwall mission is basically the game's way to tell you Micah cant be a rat, the gang member that knew about the mission were Dutch and Micah and they only grabbed Arthur due to suspecting a rat within the gang. For its profile, killing Cornwall went as smooth as possible.
What does Micah has to gain from this to kill the money bag behind Pinkerton, when he could easily set up this meeting and sell out the entire gang leadership for Cornwall and walk away with money and a pardon (Cornwall literally yelled at Milton who shot Hosea without a trial about law confinement).
@@kaydens6964if Micah turns in Dutch there, he’s only garrenteed he wouldn’t swing.. the pinkertons weren’t giving him money to be a rat. They gave him protection, that’s why when they confronted arthur Milton said “you have my word, you won’t swing” Micah was playing both sides, he wanted the money from the gang and the protection from the pinkertons.. killing Cornwall was part of the plan to rob the train because if Cornwall was alive for the train heist, there would’ve been a lot more agents, but since the funding was cut to the agency, it made the train job go smoother
@@gjte2947 except if he didn’t turn in Dutch and was spotted during the following gun fight, he was directly involved in the assassination of Cornwall underneath Pinkerton nose. Think about it for a sec, if Micah was playing both sides, he would not involve himself in missions like this, there is no plausible deniability.
@@kaydens6964 remember he was sent to follow the brief case so he was no where in sight after Cornwall died
I'd also like to point out that Micah is wearing a suit that sticks out like a sore thumb in the Saint Denis robbery. I imagine that's him trying to show the Pinkertons who not to shoot. He probably planned that some time before the robbery to ensure he wouldn't get shot.
if he was working with the Pinkertons in that mission why did Milton say he only started ratting after chapter 5? There’s no evidence of him ratting in that mission. He’s just wearing a white suit that’s it
@@Waxyyy Yeah, you're probably right. The fact the gang had just killed the man who ran the city was probably the dumbest thing they could have done, seeing at they were going to rob a bank in said city.
@@Waxyyy I think maybe he got Micah and Javier confused
Micah most definitely set up that meeting with Colm to have Arthur kidnapped. Just before the mission when Arthur and he were robbing the stagecoach, Micah is nagging at him for not wanting to keep massacring the Odriscolls. Micah was the rat 100%. He even had a bounty clipping for Dutch in his camp afterwards
I think he was working with Colm to capture Arthur. He told us where to overwatch the meeting and we just so happen to get ambushed
That’s kinda what I said in this video
completley false
@@Lizzoncker how
@@Waxyyy after Arthur recover Micha give's Arthur a heartfelt apology and says he thought he was gonna get grabbed, and it was pearsons idea to meet colm
@@Waxyyy but pearson told micha before dutch micha really liked the idea so he told dutch
Jack was the rat, and the father of Molly's baby. He seduced her with spaghetti and slippers.
@Deante stringham "Why are you such a meanie?" (Jack)
I mean, who can even debate that Micah was the rat? The game makes that abundantly clear.
@@Revix_DBH im the rat. it was me
The game made it very clear that Micah is not the rat
He would have sold out the entire gang leadership during the Cornwall meeting and walked away with Cornwall reward and a pardon. But no, this is not what happened.
They also only grabbed Arthur so the rest of the gang have no idea about it because both Micah and Dutch suspected a rat with in the gang. The mission went as smooth as it can possibly be by RDR standard for its profile.
@@kaydens6964 They literally confirmed it in the final mission. The fuck you on?
@@kaydens6964 Micah was the most loyal to Dutch and rode with him for years after. Obviously he was not the rat. Dutch being free confirms Micah didnt rat. Dutch was the main target of the Pinkertons
@@Samuel88853of course Micah was the rat dudeee
during the stand off you can see the pinkertons in the background. Then right as a shot is fired micah looks right at them. I am thinking if arthur did not show up micah would of turned in the gang.
If anything, I agree with Micah being the only snitch. Arthur had passed out the possibility that the Vanderline gang was getting sloppy (which is true). And considering Micah is an opportunists, he would be more than willing to bank on that. And then when the Pinkertons picked up Micah after the Guarma chapter, that was when he took full advantage of the desperate state of the gang.
I wish at Micah’s chapter 2 camp you could see a map with a bunch of crossed out areas on it, you could make out it is map of a town but it doesn’t fit any that Arthur can explore. However once you reach the epilogue and play as John you can cross reference it as being a map of blackwater and all the crosses were areas he had been looking for the money when he was supposedly trying to make amends for dutch
I didn’t know about this. Thank you! Amazing detail by rockstar. More proof Micah is the rat
@@Waxyyy You read it wrong, he said he wishes that was a detail. It would be really cool, though.
What really ticks me off is people sometimes talk of the "second rat" like they objectivly exist. No. It is just Micha, the rest of the gang may have lost faith but they wouldn't do that to their family
In my opinion best theory out there . Except I think he still was working with O'Driscolls in chapter 4 . In the mission where Kieran shws up dead Micah is nowhere to be seen
shit i didnt notice that
He also talked Dutch into meeting colm which lead to Arthur getting kidnapped
@@Lord_Of_Eggs that’s my theory I think he did
I don't think Micah was working with the O'Driscolls, at least for Arthur's kidnapping. Colm is just as cunning, if not even more than Dutch. I mean, look at his escape plan for his hanging. Two members in the audience, another watching with a rifle from a vantage point, and reinforcements should somebody catch on and intervene. The only thing he didn't anticipate was someone stopping them silently.
Colm knew Dutch was going to have someone watch over the meetup, which is why he chose that spot in the Heartlands specifically - there's only one good vantage point, and his scouts could easily follow whoever was going to it.
@@VeraVemaVenabut why would Micah be so determined to take risks for the gang and not himself ? He is even putting himself in danger here, for the gang. He would never do that
Molly was never a rat she just wanted to hurt Dutch who pratically threw her aside and was a terrible partner
great work waxy, i see u steppin up ur game
Micah was always a double agent.
In the Strawberry massacre Micah goes into one of his old associates house and kills them but before he does the associate states “that’s not my name Micah, my name is” Micah had talked when he was in strawberry and leaked out a ton of info. Once he realized his mistake in his drunken stooper he tried killing them all to erase any evidence of who he was but was arrested.
After being saved he tells Arthur that he’s been a bad boy and needs time away from the camp. Micah did that to meet with Milton and Ross and tell them what had happened.
But not everything that happened to the gang was cause of Micah. The gang was super sloppy and noisy. Constantly stealing and killing tons of people.
During the Valentine Arc Javier will run to you and state that Bills been captured by Bounty Hunters. If we say this is part of the main storyline then we can assume that right there is a lead to where the gang is due to the bounty hunters missing around that area.
This is a great video. I absolutley agree with you.
It must be gratifying for Rockstar that people defend Micah the way Dutch does. Dutch is the epitomy of persuasion, and if a character in a video game persuades the players despite contrary evidence, that's a win for character writing and acting.
Rockstar probably laughs their player base at still thinking Micah is the rat out of nothing but hatred when they deliberately put contrary evidence every step in the way lol
quality content 🔥 keep it up
I always thought Micah was a rat since blackwater a Job that huge going wrong the way it did despite it being and then Micah getting in trouble in smaller towns like strawberry getting caught, and the way he antagonises the gang. Micah always screamed rat and the gang clearly didn't trust him and only Dutch did and eventually that was who Micah sunk his teeth in because he realized all he had to do was feed Dutch's ego
Micah didn’t rat in blackwater it was a set up by the pinkertons to catch outlaws and the van Der linde gang took the bait
Micah was shot himself, it was just a Pinkerton set up.
Imagine thinking Micah is innocent, couldnt be me. Fantastic video! Keep it up!
Dude put in the coldest Micah edit and thought we wouldn't notice.
Ever since when micah wore that white suit in the chapter 4 final mission
I knew he was the one
he wasn’t a rat in that mission, only after guarma he ratted. The reason why the bank heist went wrong is because the gang made too much noise in Saint Denis by killing Angelo Brontë
@@Waxyyy🤦♀️
@@shyleeaus 🤦♂️ people not understanding the phot of the game
Here are some issues I found:
-Pouring Forth Oil can be conceived and executed all while Micah is locked in Strawberry Jail. Despite this, the law was tipped off to the plans and arrive early. This is even mentioned in the papers, so somebody other than Micah HAD to have tipped them off.
-There are actually very few instances in chapter 6 where Micah working with the Pinkertons could have actually been a result for their failure. Any other instances can usually be explained by the mistake of someone like Bill, or just poor planning. Also, a lot of other times the gang got ambushed because of Micah (like the Blackwater incident) can be explained by the fact that Micah, being a rat, tries to take the cheese every time (not the brightest bulb in the shed)
I think people give the gang too much credit. Micah was always the rat, theres no real doubt about it, but he is not the ONLY reason the gang kept getting caught. The gang story didnt NEED a rat for them to fail. The rat just excellerated their demise. Dutch was a lose cannon, and was honestly not as good as he ,and the others he convinced, as he thought. He was at lot of times extremely impulsive, had some very telling narcissistic traits, and most importantly never had a real plan. Even before the events we as players get to see, the gang was always in trouble because dutch was talking out his ass and was paranoid about losing his followers.
8:50 although the thought did come to mind because the first game John was the main protagonist and helped the pinkertons take down dutch so when it was first mentioned it was a good ponder question
chapter 2 Micah was in the jail known to the police he slighter half of strawberry village, there is no way the police will forgive Micah but Abigail was the Rat she explained the importance of Arthur the caring criminal and Micah the violent criminal, so its in favor of Milton to push Arthur against Micah in efforts to weaken the gang. and this when Abigail killed Milton to win her ticket out of the gang with John
Honestly, I would agree that Miach was just using the Pinkertons that way he can get the money because Micah mentions about the black water money a lot, and he was just sick and tired of it possibly
I think that’s another part of the reason Micah keeps egging on Dutch to head back to Blackwater. It wouldn’t surprise me if the money wasn’t the only reason Micah wanted to return to Blackwater with Dutch.
Dutch and the Van Der Linde gang are pretty much public enemy number 1 around Blackwater. If you’re too close to Blackwater, you’re wanted by Pinkertons. Wanted posters with Dutch’s name and face are everywhere. If Micah was in league with the Pinkertons, or (if he wasn’t with the Pinkertons just yet) if he was planning to join in with the Pinkertons and turn in Dutch as a “peace offering” to save his own skin, then Micah insisting Dutch on returning to Blackwater makes perfect sense.
Then, once the Pinkertons have Dutch, and if they let Micah go, Micah can steal the money the gang left behind in Blackwater, and nobody (not even the Pinkertons) would know.
6:02 at the very beginning of the cutscene ingame Colm talks about Arthur joining him and asks something like "whys an old gun -*like you*-(I believe he is referring to how Micah and him are alike if this theory is correct) still running with old Dutch, you could -*make some real money woth me*-(Micahs only ever been in it for the money)
Very good point, my only question about Micah being an O’Driscoll is when did he stop working with them yk?
@@Waxyyy Maybe he never really did, but didn't work actively, did Micah dislike Kieran? If he did then maybe he caused Kieran's death- maybe it was some time around guarma for many reasons
if Micah was an O'Driscoll from the start then why would you get ambushed by a horde of them stealing that wagon, and why would Micah kill them? them?
@@potatoman7594 They we on the same route the other wagon was in, could've been Micah just wanting money and getting antsy that he was left in prison, or maybe even right after this mission, after they notice how good he is someone talks to him and then Colin and him meet and start making plans, considering that that specific mission can take place in c2 or 3, I think i like this theory, and if i did more research, i would be able to come up with a theory about that. But I'm not a UA-camr anymore so I don't think I will
@@_the_phantom_ I definitely think Micah went O'Driscoll to screw over the gang but I don't think he was always one
I think the best way to wrap up the Van Der Lind story is through a movie or TV show. It would provide a third person perspective that would allow us to see what the other members of the gang were up to while we were Author and John.
Anyone talking Abt how good the video is, can tell he’s on the brink of mass success keep it up 😀
Of course Micah was the only rat. And for those who say he was a rat from the start, that isn’t true. He just tries his best to put the gang at risk and certain members at risk in hopes the gang break up and leaves only a few talented gunmen.
But even still a large percentage of people still don’t understand micah as a character.
People always debate on what micahs true intentions were In the gang and I always say the same thing. Micah states multiple times what he wants.
He knew the van der linde gang were special with the gunmen they had.
He wanted 5 or 6 gunmen and get rid of everyone else. That’s why through the whole game he’s tries to be nice with certain gang members.
John and Hosea make it clear from the very start they don’t trust Micah so Micah doesn’t even try with them.
He tries to be friendly with Arthur but then realises Arthur isn’t going to switch either so he then only focus’ on Dutch, bill and javier. Then brings in Joe and cleet.
Exactly, I made my first video on this a few months ago and I thought I should make another to really prove my point, a lot of people think other people were rats (which isn’t 100% disproved) but to the people saying Micah was innocent are just not looking at the evidence
@@Waxyyy Tbh I’ve followed the redemption series from the beginning and the amount of fans that don’t understand the majority of the characters is unbelievable.
But anyway I enjoyed the video pal. I’m always wanting new Red dead content
3:17 Even the player could see Micah was bullshitting 😂
Also whenever Arthur calls him a rat he doesn’t deny it he just says Arthur is crazy
Agent Milton said that Molly wouldn’t even say a word when they where rescuing Abigail
4:00 im sure someones said it but thevpoint of that being there is to combibe with the bounty drop by milton when he meets arthur who has a 5k bounty. Theres no way that arthurs is higher than dutchs so its obvs an old poster, micah was hunting dutch then saved him and saw that using dutch was a better way to gain money than bringing him in and having a whole gang hunt him down
Micah was a horrible person but NOT a rat!! There was a rat in chapter 2 during the second train robbery which you can do while Micah is still in jail in Strawberry. You can read in the newspaper after the robbery that the lawmen were tipped off which is why they showed up so fast. The only ones who knew about the train robbery were John, Charles, Sean, Abigal and Arthur! John was most likely the rat the whole time which makes sense because the Pinkerton's find Micah and Dutch's hideout only after John does. Who else would tell them where it is? Sadie or Charles? No..... it also leads up perfectly to RDR1 where John is forced to bring the rest of the gang in when the Pinkerton's capture Abigal and Jack. They got tired of him failing to deliver so they kidnapped them to force him to finally get it done. John was the rat!!!!!!
I mean John said it himself, many times throughout the game. Even Arthur says it once or twice. The gang got sloppy. The world changed, the world evolved, they didn't. They kept acting like life was the same it was 10 years ago.
yeah ur right but Micah was still a rat
@@Waxyyy sure. Especially when the developers went out of their way to put a rat outside of his home during the final encounter
The Intro is so badass
Next video, 108 reasons why John isn’t the rat.
I saw your comment on my Mario Odyssey 2 video, thanks for dropping by. Man you should've told me you make RDR content, I've got a bunch of RDR videos, and RDR2 is my favorite game of all time. Keep up the great work man!
I would’ve but I didn’t want it to seem like I was promoting my channel, but yeah man I’m watching a lot of ur vids and there fire. It’s crazy to me u don’t have more views, I’ll keep watching 🤙🏼
It makes no sense for John to be a rat, but Abigail clearly had issues with the gang life and wanted out. It would make sense to make a deal of "I will give you them, but only if John.. if you don't hurt John."
Milton would have no incentive to lie since he thought Arthur was going to die. He did have incentive to stroke his own ego by laying out how masterfully he did things. Micah didnt rat to the Pinkertons until after the bank heist. Someone else did.
It seems likely that Abigail ratted them out for the bank then regretted it, likely when they shot up the house in LaKay while she and Jack were inside. Micah gave them that. They brought her in for more info, but she stopped cooperating. So she became prisoner and she was apt to shoot him, especially before he told Arthur who was her best way out.
Micah was in it for himself, but not the first rat.
I’m not saying the abigail theory doesn’t make ANY sense but there’s no actual evidence to prove she’s a rat. We have her motive but we don’t have the action. It’s also important to think “did the writers of rdr2 intend to make her a rat? 🤔” cause in my eyes it’s a theory based on motive and speculation. Your 110% right about Micah only rating after the bank heist, it’s a detail many people don’t pick up on for some reason. But i believe ur wrong about Abigail rating on them before the bank heist. Let’s say she is the rat, why would she be involved in the heist in the first place? If she knew the Pinkertons were going to set them up, why would she even be a part of the plan for the heist? And the whole reason why the bank heist was unsuccessful was because Dutch killed Angelo Brontë the mission before. Angelo Brontë is a big name meaning the Pinkertons heard about his death and it involving outlaws so they go to the city. Then catch the gang at the bank. The gang were making too much noise.
@@Waxyyy As Silicon Valley's Jared would say: Meinertzhagen's Haversack. If you don't want people to know what's up, you continue acting the part. In fact, the Pinkerton swine could have utilized this by either Abigail telling them where she and Hosea would be beforehand or for Pinkertons to be actively looking for Abigail, knowing what she looks like. It's why undercover cops will commit non-cop crimes or why they let mobsters who are cooperating witnesses continue committing minor crimes - because it keeps the targets from knowing something is amiss. I don't think that someone would think that Dutch's gang would be capable of invading Bronte's house and kidnapping him - I doubt his body was found out in the swamp. A bigger force would have been assumed to pull something like that off. Someone ought to have told him.
It is odd that John was taken alive when everyone else was shot. Charles wasn't caught at the bank and it is unlikely that those who caught him would have been working on a notion of kill who you see. While Dutch was wrong about John, pointing out that disparity was the writers' way of nudging you to realize that John was saved for a reason. Something was up with it even if John wasn't behind it. I think that if they caught Dutch there, John wouldn't have been sent to prison - that was Milton's way of telling Abigail she didn't deliver what was promised. You better get us Dutch if you want to see your husband again. Mind you that Milton wasn't an abnormality - Pinkertons are pricks. They literally slaughtered striking workers when hired by industrialists. They are an amoral force skilled in crossing whatever moral boundry to get what they want.
Abigail is the only possible rat in the gang
She had the motive as you said, Jack was even kidnapped at one time.
She was never in any of the shootouts due to not being a gun and Jack was never present during Pinkerton camp busts.
She had no way to know about the Cornwall meeting, because the only gang member knew about this were Dutch and Micah who suspected a rat within the gang so they grabbed Arthur and only told him about what they gonna do just before the confrontation, it went very smooth for its profile and it was the perfect opportunity for Micah to sell them out to Pinkerton if he was the rat, and this happened after they got back from the Caribbean.
She located Dutch's chest with a key, and sent Arthur after it in the end.
There are way more evidence supporting this, and I will just stop here for avoiding long comment.
@@kaydens6964 again she has motive but there’s no evidence of her doing anything with the Pinkertons
@@Waxyyy so tell me what sort of evidence do you need? Video recording of her talking with Pinkerton?
I think the Pinkertons found out the gang would rob the Saint Denis bank not because of a rat but because of Angelo Brontes death, I mean think about it, these guys chased the gang all the way to the south and now suddenly a major figure in a city who is known as, essentially a criminal goes missing, I'm pretty sure the Pinkertons put two and two together and since Saint Denis has that bank, the Pinkertons knew where Dutch would strike next, but that's just my theory
Love the video bro ❤
I think John lived through that arrest in Saint Denis because for Pinkertons, he was a relatively new gang member, remember how Milton didn't know him until Chapter 3 where they went to the gang's camp? Either they were planning on letting John go so he can rat out the gang or keep him alive because they just don't know the history he has running with the gang
John was with the gang since he was 12
Milton not knowing John doesn’t make sense unless John just hasn’t ever been caught before the Saint Denis robbery
@@user-hx6gs9rq7u why not? John wasn’t a known outlaw, he wasn’t there for big jobs. There’s a few in the game we see him on but he wasn’t known yet
@@Waxyyy When he’s been an outlaw for 15 years i would think he would be known at some point. Especially since Charles was also a known outlaw when he was only with the gang for a few months
@@user-hx6gs9rq7u I can say I’m an outlaw right now but if I don’t get caught, police won’t know me. John was never caught or identified by police, that’s why they don’t know him
I've never understood why Dutch didn't send Kieran or Trelawny to blackwater to get the money Kieran was never known as a gang member for them and Trelawny isn't an official member he just comes around at random times
He didn’t trust either not to run off with it, the only other person who knew exactly where it was hidden was Hosea. Even Arthur and Micah didn’t know where Dutch kept the previous gang savings
@@joshuacain9845 Dutch knew Micah wanted to run off with the money
I though it was Gavin , I still think there might have been another rat in the game like Abigail but I probably been lessening to a lot of theory’s on that topic , but The only one That agent Milton says who the rat is Micah
Also in the credits it shows pinkertons going up mount hagen to find micah and thats probably why john got killed in rdr1
Charles didn’t get caught, so you’re wrong about that. But still, I agree with you that John is most likely not a rat, even if we won’t ever really know. But your explanation is the one that makes the most sense amongst every other I’ve heard. ESPECIALLY regarding Colm’s trap, I’ve always felt there was a piece missing there, but didn’t know what, so thanks for your theory. I do still have my doubts about Abigail too. When you know Rockstar Games, you know that John being arrested in a crazy shootout while Hosea and Mac were killed in cold blood AND Abigail “somehow slipping away” isn’t just because of plot armor. So yes, you did change my view
Micah was obviously the rat. Not from the Jump tho. Even if Micah or anyone else didn’t eat the hang out, I believe they still would have met their demise. The whole goal was to lay low and get money. Every attempt they tried to get money either involved a huge shootout or a bank. The Pinkertons really didn’t need Micah to stay hot on their trail. Also considering the times could the gang not have possibly slipped off to Angel island and got to Tahiti. I’m not sure what the cost of tickets etc where back then, but I imagine the bank in Valentine could have covered a lot of the cost. Factor that in with selling horses etc.
Yeah ur right
Most unrealistic thing was trusting this dude of 6 months to start calling shots and be right hand man. But Dutch needed a yes man and Micah was there for him
Great video buddy
When it comes to Saint Denis bank robbery and Abigail getting away I could totally see Hosea sacrificing himself so she could get away Hosea was a respectable man. Also I feel if she was the rat I feel Milton would of made some smart remark like “One of your rats are right here….” Also after the robbery I feel like she would of took Jack and left.
Micah signals the Pinkertons who were in the background at the last scene of Beaver Hollow. Watch it again, carefully.
You know the fandom is starved for content when someone has to make the argument that the literal text of the game is in fact correct lmao (great video btw)
@@DwRockett thank you!
Wait, are there people that really think Micah wasn't the rat?
Yeah weird people
The voice actor for Micah is very good he is a very well written character enough where you want him dead
Micah knew sneaking up on the O'Driscals was a trap. (Hosea even said so) Also, players pointed out Micah wore a different outfit for the St. Denis bank hiest.
I personally don't think Micah ratted until after Guarma. I hate him but he knew as much as Arthur that the gang was gonna die very soon.
It would be Ironic if Abigail was also partially involved, the irony of her working with the government got John betrayed and killed.
Micah is honestly probably the reason why the Pinkerton killed John in the end no wild goose chase or loose ends
Me personally, i think micah was a rat from the start. I think he was playing both sides and while he may not have been working directly with them until chapter five i think he was purposely giving them hints discretely. And he wasnt loyal to the pinker tons it was, if the gang collapses i got immunity and if we get enough money we’d go to Tahiti!
The blackwater job didn’t fail because of Micah ratting. He didn’t. He didn’t research the job enough to realize it was a set up. Pinkertons set up the job and it was for outlaws to get caught. The gang did not
@@Waxyyy well maybe not black water, but with micahs character i truly believe he took opportunities before Guama, anf i think there was plenty
Red dead themselves pretty much confirmed he was the rat. He was the only one wanting to go and “collect” the money in black water alone, he had a Dutch wanted poster, and at the end of the game you can see a rat run across the screen before he walks out the door. That’s enough proof for me
The game makes it clear Micah is the rat, the fact that Milton says it confirms it. It was written that way.
Exactly
Here's the thing tho... People often forget, that just because a character says something in a story, doesn't mean they're not lying.
Milton had all the reasons to accuse Micah of being a rat, he is manipulative, plays dirty and has no mercy for outlaws. He had already interrogated multiple people by then (Molly for sure and probably tortured Strauss by then). It's not too far fetched to think that Molly might have actually ratted them out or slipped due to being drunk. Let's not forget she actually kinda hated the gang and saw them as peasants and scum, she only cared about Dutch, who was ignoring her. She's also suspiciously the only one to not get either tortured to death or sent to prison.
Either way, I'm sure Milton gained some insight into the gang's relationships and he probably already had a vague idea of how nasty Micah was, considering his impulsive style... If that's so, Milton would be doing a big brain move and setting up a backup plan, by framing Micah as the rat. 1. He diverts attention from Molly, therefore keeping the true rat in the gang (the Pinkertons didn't know she had died by that point). 2. They tear the gang up from the inside, by generating even more distrust and he uses the ideal scapegoat in the process, Micah.
Also Arthur and Micah were the highest and most well-known threats in the gang, considering their history. So by telling Arthur specifically, that Micah is a rat, he is guaranteeing, that if Arthur somehow escapes, the communication at the top will break down. Dutch can't really manage things, if his two top men are trying to kill each other. It's genious really.
I always found it jarring, that Milton just busts that fact out of his ass for no appearent reason. Arthur says "I'm a fool" and he's like "Let me tell you about the rat, my greatest asset", it just doesn't make sense if Micah is the only rat... He's giving up his inside guy and brings it up completely out of context. It doesn't fit with Milton's calculative style up until that point. I also don't quite see how they'd keep someone like Micah in check after releasing him... Molly on the other hand had motive and wanted to see Dutch suffer for breaking her heart.
But I do believe Micah could have been sabotaging the gang at times. Dutch's wanted poster wouldn't be there for no reason and honestly Micah's questionable decisions, like setting camp in a overflown, muddy open area, are just too dumb for me to accept. Maybe he was in with the Pinkertons from the start, Molly was a just the second rat and Milton felt the time was right to destroy them completely, taking Micah out in the process.
There's also the possibility, that Micah really is just that dumb and it was Dutch's increasing "noise" that left a trail. John and Arthur imply this multiple times during and after the bank heist in St. Denis. I mean, messing with two of the biggest families in Lemoyne, Killing the crime lord that runs St. Denis, Robbing the Bank of St. Denis, supporting rebels in Guarma against an influential man with relations to St. Denis, the repeated accidental and purposeful run-ins with Cornwall, FIGHTING THE FUCKING ARMY?! Honestly it'd be a miracle, if they didn't get destroyed...
All in all, there's multiple theories, that work. But I personally prefer the one where Milton isn't just a moron for no reason and pulls arguably one of the smartest moves in the entire story... It makes him so much more interesting as a character and adds depth to his presence.
@@marceloguia6107 So all of that dumb, long-winded argument full of "maybes" ends in a personal headcanon? Definitely a good analysis made based on thin air and more false theories.
@@KC.45 What can I say, I was bored😂 Plus I've actually explored all of those "maybes" I mentioned.
The thing you don't seem to realise is, that there is no true answer to this one. The story just explores way too many possibilities and doesn't give a definite answer on any of them. Molly and or Micah could be the rat, there's plenty of arguments for both but then there's also hints from Arthur, that there's no need for rat at all. It's way too open and naturally people are gonna have favorites. The fun lies in exploring those loose ends to look at the story from different perspectives.
But hey, I'd like to hear your answer for sure after that response😂
@@marceloguia6107lol so many people just take miltons word as gospel while ignoring the fact he's a super manipulative character who's shown to say things just to get under peoples skin. I'm a believer in micah being the rat but unless you just take anything milton says as truth which is just silly there's no solid proof for any of the theories
People who think Micah wasn’t the rat are looking at things the wrong way. They don’t believe it because Micah had the opportunity to turn Dutch and Arthur in directly to Cornwall, Milton and Ross, but what they’re missing is Micah was not loyal to the Pinkertons. He explains his reasons for betraying the gang to Arthur very succinctly: “I’m a survivor.” He probably got caught by the Pinkertons at some point, agreed to turn informant in exchange for not being hanged, but only gave them as little as possible to keep them happy while he and who he deemed to be the strongest of Dutch’s gang would escape.
I think he goes to the Pinkertons himself telling them false information in exchange for more money
For some reason everyone thinks someone ratted on the Saint Denis roberry just because Dutch ways "Someone must've squealed." As if the Pinkertons wouldn't just be patrolling the place where the richest person in Lemoyne just went missing around where the Van Der Linde gang was last seen. Like Arthur said, they got sloppier than the town drunk.
My reasoning for thinking Abigail was the rat before Micha is that after the train robbery in chapter 2 you can read the newspaper saying the authorities were tipped off about the robbery and thats how the showed up so fast that robbery was being planned by john and was kept very secret unlike Dutch's plans the only people that knew were John, Authur, Charles, and Sean and I doubt any of them were rats but John most likely would have told Abigail about that. There's also obviously all the stuff with the Saint Denis bank robbery that everyone already pointed out, her slipping away and John being the only one to get arrested. I think after that Milton double crossed her and that's why there was talk of hanging him and she stopped ratting on the gang which is why she was taken from the camp because Milton had a personal grudge. Thats just my theory but feel free let me know if there's anything wrong with it though.
Why would Abigail tip the authorities off on a robbery that the person she's trying to protect is partaking in, knowing damn well they won't surrender???
I think somthing people never point out is how micah acts upon being called out by arthur i remember picking up how when arthur says dutchs name just how quick micah was to also say it followong it up with think of the future he is trying to distract from the accusation cause he has no defense and is clearly trying to use the good will from dutch he has been building up to discredit arthur by playing it all off as rediculous. Even the drawn out way he says dutch its almost loke hes trying to think of anything to say that could bring dutch to his side, like he is playing one of his bits, doesnt seem like his natural self that entire sequence
Also side note fuck how they kill off susan man it never makes sense to me how that doesnt immediately kick off a gun fight wjen micah opens fire, i feel it woulda been better if she survived for the pinkerton assault and like during the retreat into tye caves do to her age stops around maybe the bit where john and arthur start climbung and says somthing like go, im to old to be running like this ill stall them for you boys, maybe even have a mokent where john or arthur tries protesting and she uses her "grimshaw voice" screaming at em scolding em before heading off back at tge pinkertons, maybe even then jearing her die in the background as you make your decent. Idk just seemed like a lazy way to write her off by just having micah take a cheap shot at her while shes distracted and just noone really even reacting accept arthur tensing up abit like tge fact he made that shot makes little sense considering there was also arthur with a gun on him unless micah knew he wouldnt open fire for some reason.
Yeah when Micah was asking us about the money and he told Dutch that he would follow directions from Dutch that's hard to believe. Because one he burn down a house in chapter 1 and in Chapter 2 he got himself in a lot of trouble and in jail so is not a good boy like he said when we were in chapter one. So therefore he does not follow directions from Dutch he disobey Dutch's directions find burning down a house in chapter one and getting himself in jail in chapter two. Also in chapter 3 in blessed are the peacemakers a lot of people did blame Dutch for what happened to Arthur but there was quite a few including me noodle real person who's at fault for this I mean I did not blame Dutch for what happened to Arthur. From the start I knew I knew that Micah with the O'Driscoll's was planning on to kill Arthur we all know that Dutch and Arthur were pretty close to each other. But after some players did blame Dutch they stopped blaming him and started pointing their fingers at Micah.
I think the fact that there are so many contradictory theories about the rat proves that this part of the story is not well-written...
Micah being the rat is just weird. His main goal was to retreive the blackwater money, and for that he needs Dutch because only Dutch knows where the stash is. So it would make no sense to betray Dutch if you desperately need him. This is why he kept agreeing with Dutch and slipped more ideas into his head to become his new favorite. Betraying the gang only ruins his reputation in Dutch's eyes, we see that Dutch leaves him after the fight with Arthur, so what was the point of all this? Also, he doesn't seem like the type who would ever work with the law, we see in the epilogue that he's still a gangster and that he likes it. And I don't see any reason for Pinkertons to get the most notorious gang member and be like "hey that guy can work for us, the one who kills and robs the most"... I think that the rat stuff was thrown in the game just to make a simple excuse for Micah being the final boss, as if you couldn't have done that better...
I would be fine with Micah betraying Dutch AFTER they get the money from blackwater, that way he gets all the money and has guaranteed freedom, but betraying Dutch before that is just stupid and out of character.
4:58 all I'm saying is that Micah has big hands
I don't think micah teamed up with the odriscols, because at the moment he still had some respect for arthur, and as Milton said, Dutch is the one that's worth the risk. And if he really wanted to kill or capture Dutch he would do it on the way back.
why was Arthur caught by the O’Driscolls in the first place? 🤔 to get the gang to the o’Driscoll camp to get Arthur but of course they would be met with Pinkertons. Why didn’t the O’Driscolls get Dutch instead? Because if they had gotten Dutch that would mean the rest of the other gang members would’ve left. The Pinkertons don’t just want Dutch. They want everyone. Maybe not every single person but all the outlaws so most of all the men in the gang. Hoseas, bill, Javier, and sean all have bounties as well as Dutch. Micah met with the O’Driscolls to come up with a plan to make it seem like they wanted a parlay, but instead they wanted to grab Arthur to take him to a camp, then Dutch and the gang would show up trying to get Arthur but instead the gang get caught by the Pinkertons. Then Micah would get his cut from dutches bounty from the O’Driscolls from the Pinkertons and he would good, that was his plan anyway but it would’ve have went like that but who knows. That’s my theory I encourage you to try to debunk it
@@WaxyyyPearson was the one who encountered the O'Driscolls, and if Micah was involved, Colm would have revealed that.
@@PabloReiVi if he would’ve revealed that, that would mean the whole story would’ve went differently. Just why is Micah acting so suspicious in that mission? Explain that to me
@@Waxyyy In chapter 2, 3 and 4, Micah was gaining Dutch's trust, a parley with old enemies would be one of his attempts to get more trust. And remember, in chapter 3 Milton himself said that he wanted only Dutch, atleast on that point. Another thing, Micah is a survivor, he only does things that benefit him, so there’s was no reason to betray the gang on that point since that would not benefit him at all, he betrays the gang in chapter 6 only because he was captured after he came back from Guarma.
I really enjoy theorizing on very aspects of the game, but from a storytelling perspective it TELLS you that Micah is the rat, it is not ambiguous information!
THANK YOU! So many people don’t understand that
Micah already being at Lakay faster than the others doesn't make sense as Milton said he was "picked up" after getting back from Guarma. What did they just meet for a few minutes? Doesn't make sense. He would have been picked up and held for a while and then talked and made a deal. That doesn't happen fast. Micah would have been the last one to get to Lakay. He was horrible but not a rat.
Hear me out it was Abigail. Number 1 she conveniently had Arthur take Jack fishing when Milton approached Arthur, basically ensuring Arthur wouldn’t kill him. Then somehow she got away at Saint Denis but not Hosea? And why didn’t they kill John at the prison?
thing is, there’s no evidence of Abigail doing anything
Just imagine he was informant for the law but not a rat.
how is that not the same?
I think Micah was the rat cause Arthur told him he doesn’t fight . Dude never fight but is always in trouble .
Initially, I genuinely liked Micah throughout the game until the unexpected revelation that he was a cunning informant. This twist from Rockstar took me by surprise. Despite his unpleasant demeanor, I must admit that Arthur, too, had his flaws, making them an effective team.
the biggest evidence against john or abigail being rats is just the events of rdr1. if the pinkertons already had a relationship with one of both of them why would they kidnap abigail? or why would they force john to do things he didn't want to do instead of just getting more info from him? just wouldn't make sense.
Exactly!!!
The issue with proving anything about the rat situation is that we only have 2 sources of info on it or technically 3 but none of them are very trustworthy. We have milton obviously but he was already shown to be twisted and willing to say things to get into peoples heads like when he first confronts arthur. Then we have dutch who was convinced of the presence of a rat even before micah was supposedly working for milton. Lastly we have arthur but hes just parroting what milton had already told him which we have no way of actually confirming. We know that regardless of whether or not there was a rat theyd still have tons of heat on them because like arthur said himself they got sloppy and only got more sloppy as dutch spiralled out of control. Basically we have no way of knowing if there was a rat unless we assume milton was telling the truth. I personally believe micah was the rat like milton said but its definitely debatable whether or not he was one. Regardless though micah was almost entirely responsible for the gangs fall since he was the one pushing for all the loud sloppy jobs.
Well in the vid I explain that Micah only does things based off money and personal gain. Sooooo why would he want peace with the O’Driscolls? 0 personnel gain there. Unless he talked to them about turning Dutch in, it makes perfect sense for the story down to the fact pearson suggested the idea to Dutch to make it look like it wasn’t Micah’s fault, of course I think Micah went to the O’Driscolls, they came up with a plan to turn Dutch in and than confronted Pearson. That’s the main point I made in the vid proving he was a rat. Not based on a theory with no evidence and evidence contradicting it (PVP cats vid) simple fellowing and understanding what the story is telling us by knowing these characters good enough to know their goal in the gang. Micah never wanted to rat but he likes money. As for Milton, he has 0 reason to lie in his position, he has Arthur ready to kill him and send Abigail and Sadie off to prison. People say “he did it to through the gang off” bruh he was planning on no one in that room escaping but HIM. Was he planning to die? Nah man fellow the story and stop coming up with these bad theories to misinform people about the story. Some people liked Micah so they like to think “Maybe he wasn’t a bad guy” but no, he was a bad person and a rat but u can still like him as a character. Not a person, a character in a video game. Thats my take and that’s why Micah was a rat. As for other members, it’s a possibility but the game doesn’t tell us much about other rats. Hope u understand and love ya comment 🤙🏼
@@Waxyyy that whole reasoning with micah is just conjecture again all we know for sure is that milton says micah started ratting after guarma. The situation can also just as easily be reasoned as micah gaining dutchs trust so he can get his hands on the Blackwater loot which we see happening throughout the story it fits with micahs stated and shown motivations. There's this thing called occams razor but let's just ignore that for now since regardless we're still left with 2 theories with no actual evidence other than ifs and buts. Let's focus on milton for now you ask what reason he'd have to lie to arthur but as I already said he's been well established as a man that likes to get under peoples skin, he had nothing to gain from angering arthur earlier in the story but he does it there anyway and he also has nothing to gain from killing hosea when he's already captured and could be a bargaining tool or used to get info but he did it anyway. Why are you so focused on micahs motivation while completely ignoring Miltons established character? if we're taking the word of milton at face value despite his info never being actually confirmed and his established character being one that likes to do things just to get under arthur/dutches skin why not take micahs word at face value to? No I'm not defending micah as a person he's objectively a evil person what I'm defending is him being the rat or not. Rockstar went out of their way to never give any actual confirmation, have the only person to state micahs a rat be untrustworthy, have plausible deniability for micah in any situation where the gang may have been ratted out while still giving enough hints to rouse suspicion. It's the video game equivalent of the briefcase from pulp fiction it's purposely left to audience interpretation all we know for sure about what's in the case is that it gives off a gold light just like how all we know for sure about the rat situation is that milton says it's micah. Assuming anything else is just conjecture
@@jebbryant6522yeah I understand that Milton is the only 110% proof that Micah is a rat and overall he might not be trustworthy, and I say Milton was just doing his job. He killed Hosea because he already warn the gang that if they didn’t stop bad things will happen and it did. Not saying Milton is a good person but saying he’s someone who is doing his job, sure he would gain nothing from telling Arthur but he likes the satisfaction of telling him. I told my theory and u can’t just dismiss it by saying “Micah wanted Dutch’s trust” or whatever, it’s such an obvious phot point that Micah ratted in chapter 3. At that time micah didn’t care about Dutch he cared about money. The only reason why he started talking to Dutch is because the pinkertons might’ve told him too. I don’t have definitive proof that Micah ratted in chapter 3 but it’s so obvious, why did Micah care so much about making peace with the o’Driscolls when it didn’t benefit him an any way. He didn’t care about Dutch trusting him, he care about money so his plan was to turn him in. Why was Dutch’s bounty poster at Micah’s camp? It’s almost like the game is trying to tell us something. If my theory is correct and he did rat in chapter 3 what makes him not a rat in chapter 6? He ratted before why wouldn’t he again? There’s too many questions in my theory that u can’t chuck them up to being false because the game doesn’t definitively tells us. Dutch: MiCaH iS A rAT. That doesn’t need to happen for this theory to work. The game provides us hints and expects us to know Micah’s aspirations. He doesn’t care about Dutch or the gang he just wants money. That’s why he ratted in chapter 3, he wanted Dutch’s bounty. My theory does sound more plausible than Milton lied for no reason other than to fuck with Arthur who he was about to kill. The game try’s to tell us throughout the story, finding Dutch’s bounty poster at his camp and him in chapter 3. The writers didn’t just make Micah all of a sudden care about the gang and Dutch in chapter 3. They wrote that mission with Micah being a rat in mind, how can I prove this? I’m thinking of getting Micah’s actor to look at my theory cause he’s someone who can say if Micah was a rat in that Mission.
I see ur point and respect your opinion. Sorry if it sounded like I’m angry or smt just having a simple debate. No hard feelings tho 🙏
I think there were many rats but the biggest was micah. It was so heavily foreshadowed its laughible literally when he exist his tent a rat scurrys out lol.also i think its obvious Abigail was an informat in order to save her family at everyone elses expense.i wouldn't even doubt dutch being a false outlaw recruiter on the behalf of the government.think about it he was leader of the gang and only had a thousand dollar bounty while author had one for 5 grand.not to mention dutch is always the one shattering any opportunity for escaping the law.and despite his reckless behavior he survives thru rdr2 and a majority of rdr1 story while every lesser member meets an untimely demise.😮😢
I think you're reaching. What actual proof do you have for Abigail? Because the train roberry theory is dumb, because why would she tip them off about a roberry that the person she wants to protect is partaking in?
Well done ✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻✅✅✅✅
This whole Micah thing has to get explained in rdr3
It probably won’t sadly
what is the music behind the edit/intro you made it was fire
Thanks! It’s this > ua-cam.com/video/Zz9E4olGd6U/v-deo.htmlsi=6iNbUluzvOf4UD4k
I still think its stupid Dutch believes the person who was the more recent addition to the gang then Arthur who he taught how to write and read
Dutch wanted money, Micah wanted money. Perfect couple
At 9:24 in this video he reveals Mac was alive but dies with Hosea
wym
Yep old Mac sadly got shot in the chest while he was on the roof with Arthur
@@LIZARDOPIA mac callander was a character who died before the story from a Pinkerton, I was referring to the fact the Pinkertons didn’t let him live but let John live, I then talk about whatever or not John was the rat. I wasn’t referring to Lenny but yes Lenny also does that same way but the Pinkertons had to kill Lenny because the gang was right behind him. So my point stands
@@Waxyyy ah I know was just making a joke
R.I.P the callander boys
How’s Dutch only got a $1000 bounty where as they tell Arthur he has one of £5000, the hell was our boy doing to rack that one up
Pretty sure it was a mistake on rockstars part
great video even though i already knew this it was interesting
Micah was a rat since Guarma, but he's always been a hothead and incompetent
I think there are only three characters that could be rats Micha of croase ,Bill ,or Javier
those two characters are the most loyal to the gang, if u think otherwise ur looking too much into it
I ain’t a rat cowpoke!
No, you haven’t changed my view because I agree that he was a rat or the main one involved in talking. So yeah I agree with your insight into this.
I think that Micah started talking to the Pinkertons after Guarma, like Milton said, but I think Micah always wanted to take down Dutch. In Chapter 2, when we find Dutch's bounty poster at Micah's camp, it's only 1,000 dollars, meaning it's an old poster, since Arthur's bounty in that same chapter is 5,000. Dutch's bounty must have been at least 10,000 in chapter 2. I think Micah wanted to infiltrate the gang and turn in Dutch way before the events of RDR2. Everything Micah did was for himself. He "saved" Dutch and gained his trust, then he put the idea of the Blackwater heist into Dutch's head because he wanted the money. In Chapter 3, when he betrayed the gang for the first time (arranging the meeting with Colm), he wanted Arthur to either be captured or killed, since Arthur was an obstacle for Micah's manipulation of Dutch. In Chapter 4, he was on his best behavior, like you said because he wanted money and when that failed, he then ratted to the Pinkertons. He truly is the most evil and despicable villain in video game history.
Hey man thanks for ur comment and seeing my points not a lot of people are like that, nice pfp pic too
completley false micha had no intention of getting arthur captured if you wearnt such a silly lil guy youd know it was pearson idea to meet colm
@@Lizzonckerbut Micah was the one who took initiative on it.
@@potatoman7594 that dosent change anything
What reputation?
John’s a rat in RDR1, he might as well be the rat in RDR2 also.
Since he is weak, he has Abigail and Jack as weakness, so he is easily manipulable!
John Marston is not a rat in RDR1. He's the government's dog but he didn't snitched on anyone. If he wasn't part of Bill's gang then how did John rat on them? That logic has a big hole.
Edit: And he meant that John Marston has a reputation as a beloved character in the community.
That’s true, but it’s a 100% fact that agent Ross has Johns family collective, it’s not a fact that john is working for them in rdr2. At that point in the story, john starts killing his old gang members because they betrayed him, leaving him for dead, so in a way he doesn’t care who it is he has to kill, he’s killing them for his real family
@@KC.45 he’s a rat, regardless.
Think about Tekashi69. Doesn’t matter if they weren’t his friends or not.
A real man stays silent, does his time or die honorably.
Only rats become government lapdogs.
@@Chris.Morales Well not a rat but a backstabber (rat is when you give them information about them, Agent Ross already had information about the gang), even tho the gang backstabbed him a long time before, he’s being a backstabber for noble cause, his family and I think all red dead fans respects him for that
@@Chris.Morales My brother in christ if i had to chose between killing/capturing Bill and Dutch or getting me and my family killed, I'll do it, he's not considered "a rat", he ratted out who exactly? People he wants nothing to do with and fucked him and a bunch of people over Dutch's 10.000iq plan?
micah calling pearson fat man is mean but it’s micah
Ngl I believe it’s micha and molly. The fact when Arthur says “you mean molly” after Milton says Micah bell and he just goes “no no no we’ve shaked her a few times that’s it” yet she never brought it up anywhere else in teh game. Yeah Micah was a rat but i believe Molly gave away Dutch instead on the gang will Micah gave up the gang but not Dutch. Sorry for long comment
I mean, Molly did want to talk to Dutch in Saint Denis a few times but was shut off.
I think you are 💯 % correct
Micah should of tried turning in Arthur because Arthur bounty was higher than Dutch’s
that’s what he was planning on doing in chapter 3
@@Waxyyy yeah but let’s be honest Arthur before tb is untouchable
@@killeraxe1 well the O’Driscolls got him with Micah’s help. Mission is called blessed are the peacemakers