SnowToad I’m the same as you, most of the time it’s just easier to fold JJ+ than get into these tricky spots. On occasion however, I will limp with AA and KK, but only if these are suited pairs
The reraise by JJ on the flop nets us valuable information. 2 pair and sets are likely to come back over the top of our raise on this very wet board whereas a flush draw would likely just call as in this case. This allows us to check fold the river with confidence. Great video by the way.
The flop is kind of a suck spot for JJ, but of the 3 possible lines, we can take, raising is the least bad in my opinion. Folding an overpair to a half pot donk bet is extremely weak-tight, and just calling and inviting the guys behind to either squeeze or come along with position will put you in some very awkward spots. On the turn Heros bet size is a bit small, but again Hero did not really have any great options. Betting something like 75-80 % pot would leave a very awkward stack behind for the river, and going all in would only get action, if Hero is beat. On the river I also agree with checking back. Its not, that his entire range is hearts, but he is not calling with a busted draw like T9 or 65, and there is likely not enough made hands like 99-TT in his range to make up for the hands, we lose to.
I'm not sure. If I have 2 pair plus here in the bb, I'm leading this flop. Plus the 2 players behind you, this is a very scary flop. Folding isn't weak tight in my opinion. It might hurt to fold, but what have you lost but a few big blinds.
Hey Split, man the improvements to my game because of you is insane, I probably watched all your videos 10x, I even have all your books, spr and stack to pot ratio took me to new heights, really took my mind for flight with InElastic Ranges, and people inability to let hands down when getting bad prices, and constantly fixing leaks and improving every single play to a +EV, the obtaining of money seems almost like destiny. Thanks for posting these videos and letting us explore your brain and how far the rabbit hole we can go and constantly press our minds to new explorations, and staying 5 moves above the rim of the field........This was a rant, ima send you a video Mr. Falcon was here, thanks Split!
Good fundamental thoughts about range in this video. I play the micros, and I often look at my opponents donk bet %. I find donk betting is very polarized, some of my opponents donk bet as high as 90%, when others donk as low as 5%. Against some of my opponents I would easily fold the Jacks on this flop because they would almost definitely have either a set or two pair, or at the very very worst they would have a monster combo draw, like 45 of hearts or A6 of hearts.
In this particular spot I think, the donk bet looked like exactly, what it was: A draw wanting to set its own price and hopefully get multible callers to sweeten the pot odds. Fish often think this way, and he started with 90 BB, which is a fairly sure fish tell. If he wanted folds, or had a strong made hand, he would either have gone for a check-raise, or he would have gone for a much larger bet size like 80% pot. So I feel, he pretty much turned his range face up with this half pot donk bet into 3 other players on a super wet board. And while Hero was not hugely ahead of draws on the flop, I like his idea of isolating the fish. Knowing pretty much what kind of hand, the fish had, Hero should be able to play turn and river very well heads up in position. As in fact he did. Getting value on the turn and not putting in a penny more, when he was beat on the river.
I think most low stakes players will check/raise 2 pair+ and donk weak combo draws, especially half pot. Closer to full pot into 3 people would look stronger as a bet for protection on a wet board. Id think a raise is best where we keep the donk in and fold out some other hands that had equity and may have stuck around for the good price. Plus, what if there is a squeeze behind us? I think it’s much easier to play if we are getting 4bet rather than squeezed.
I think a turn overbet shove would've been a good play? We will get looked up by a lot of worse hands and lose to a couple of combos of 7x (if we assume he will 3-bet the flop with 2pair+). I don't think the villain will be folding his flush draw, top pair, overpair, a 6 maybe? Pocket 66, lots of combos we can get called by.
Just fold the jacks on the flop, 4 way and you are first to act behind the aggressor and if raised behind you generally have to fold or play a guessing game which you are usually behind. Almost any turn and river card is bad if not raised. Flop is either a large large raise committing yourself, or fold, and I would lean towards folding...
You're very welcome! I'm a live cash player, so no rings or bracelets to tout. I've written multiple books, released hundreds of videos, and coached 500+ students - so hopefully those suffice as my qualifications =)
I really really think this is a necessary topic. I was happy to see this topic. I just started the video and I’m just assuming that James is going to be protection oriented. James, Your videos changed my mind and almost single handedly made me a winning player. I owe you so much. I really regret I never got my end of the redchip stuff together for you. All that said, I think you need to think really long and hard about this “concept” or “non concept” of protection. I did a vid called Stop Betting for Protection maybe ch., you literally just said to consider calling and not raising that flop., ok ok,.. that makes me happy. Hmmm., it might just be a semantics thing. Still, the term doesn’t mean anything at all. It’s anything from a thin value bet to turning a made hand into a five out semi bluff., any concept that covers both ends of the spectrum is not real. Peace and love homie Oh wow, so you are even considering the river jam.. Ok ok Ok, I do like the river bet but I think we should size down vs most villains because they are way way way too afraid of flushes. Ok. Great video James. Honestly, easier for me to argue w my assumptions of how you would approach this than how you actually DID explain it. Very good video. 👌
Ironic. As I start watching this, I'm dealt QQ in middle position. Raise preflop 3X. Get 3 callers. Wet board. Led into with and a call in front of me. I raise 2.5X and get 2 callers. Turn completes the top end of a two-hole card straight.The leader shoves all in. Call. Call. Leader had nothing. Caller had suited connectors that hit the straight on the turn (also had 4 to a flush on the flop.) First hand. Out of the tournament with QQ in this exact situation.
With a donk bet and a call in front of you, the prudent action is to just call on the flop and hope for a brick turn card. I would only raise, if he donked for some silly amount like 10% of the pot. And when you face that action on the turn, you should just muck your hand and take a note on, what they had. Maybe once in a moon the guy going all in is on a silly bluff or overplaying his TT or JJ. But you also had to beat the guy calling. And unless that guy is a complete fish, he have at least two pair here almost always. You raised on the flop, so he needed to be worried about your hand and not just the guy going all in.
I'd love to see the same video where we look at it from villains perspective and evaluate his play. Donk betting isn't a big part of my game and I'd love to hear thoughts on "when donking is a good idea"
I will say, that his half pot donk bet is pretty bad. He is never getting 3 opponents to fold, and he is not in great shape, if he get raised. His overcards are not always good, and he could be up against a dominating draw. So he should just play defensively and check-call in this spot, and if he face a substantial turn bet, he should fold. When the board pair, he could be drawing dead, he could still be against a dominating draw, and it is difficult to get paid out of position, when he gets there. If this was truly the first hand, Hero played against Zorro1957, his stack size is actually a pretty big fish tell, because that mean, he bought in for 4,47$. And why would anyone choose such an odd amount, unless it was his entire remaining available balance on the site.
@@fundiver198 i thought leading in to 3 people was ambitious at best. I'd love to see James do a video on when donk betting is a good idea. I do very little of it, as 90% of my poker hands I either have the lead or position. Right now, if I donk bet its typically bc "I flopped big against a player who I think has a lot of middling hands that he won't bet but will call down with."
Betting $2 OTT is terrible. Leaves V with just $1.50 behind OTR and we can't bluff. Gotta think about stack to pot ratio, and how we would want to play with all of our hands.
@@splitsuit Okay but still, most competent players can work out that if you only leave 1/6 of the pot behind going to the river, you are very unlikely to be bluffing
To me the issue is more, that we put ourselfes in a pretty awkward spot, if Villain lead the river, and we are getting 5:1. Even getting 3:1 it would not be the most fun spot, but I feel, it would at least be a somewhat easier fold.
I think the issue here is the case it gets awkard to play the hand 3 streets when we raise the donkbet on a rather scary board. I agree about raising to protect the hand and I am not scared of the donkbet. Problem is x3 still gives players behind with deeper stack a chance to call if they believe big never shoves + a great price for big to continue. I prefer a raise to 1,50 (5,x). Leaving 3,86 behind and 3.62 in the pot if big calls, basically a potsize bet. Perfect chance to set up for a jam if the turn is "safe". In that case we can have some bluffs in our range too like A6, JT, KQhh, A9hh. Not only sets and overpairs.
Someone can tell me what the difference and when use the equity (of equilab for example) or the outs (together with pot odds). I'm confusing about this I don't know if i pretend to call I need to look the outs pot odds or the equity on equilab
Outs are a way of estimating equity if you assume that all of your outs give you the best hand at showdown. Equity is simply the percent of the time your hand will win at showdown after all possible board runouts and against your opponent's entire range.
I personally downgraded pocket Jacks for myself because they never seem to play out how I plan. Bet strong preflop and an ace or king always seems to flop. Play passively and it ends up like a hand in the video. Flop a set and can't get any callers so don't get paid. JJ just doesn't like me.
@@splitsuit Isn't that a relevant comment for the river decision? How often is villain trapping here compared to betting first on the river when he has the flush?
@@kmonsen It certainly can be. If you think V would donk flushes/check single pairs on the river, it lends more validity to betting and trying to eek out that last bit of value...
![Commit Or Quit With ACE QUEEN? [Poker Quiz]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fP5I590yfWk/mqdefault.jpg)
JJ are super hard to play postflop, I just fold JJ-AA preflop to avoid gettin into trouble and 3bet my 72o
That's....safe?
I don't always 3bet 72o, but when I do I balance this by 3betting preflop sets as well.
@@synchronium24 hm that's kinda loose, I almost always fold low sets 2-6 preflop unless I know my opponents
SnowToad I’m the same as you, most of the time it’s just easier to fold JJ+ than get into these tricky spots. On occasion however, I will limp with AA and KK, but only if these are suited pairs
Same, snap fold those garbage hands! You win small and lose big.
The reraise by JJ on the flop nets us valuable information. 2 pair and sets are likely to come back over the top of our raise on this very wet board whereas a flush draw would likely just call as in this case. This allows us to check fold the river with confidence.
Great video by the way.
Thanks Clint!
Probably watched every video you've uploaded but that's the first time I actually watched in the morning. So, good morning everybody :D
The flop is kind of a suck spot for JJ, but of the 3 possible lines, we can take, raising is the least bad in my opinion. Folding an overpair to a half pot donk bet is extremely weak-tight, and just calling and inviting the guys behind to either squeeze or come along with position will put you in some very awkward spots.
On the turn Heros bet size is a bit small, but again Hero did not really have any great options. Betting something like 75-80 % pot would leave a very awkward stack behind for the river, and going all in would only get action, if Hero is beat.
On the river I also agree with checking back. Its not, that his entire range is hearts, but he is not calling with a busted draw like T9 or 65, and there is likely not enough made hands like 99-TT in his range to make up for the hands, we lose to.
I'm not sure. If I have 2 pair plus here in the bb, I'm leading this flop. Plus the 2 players behind you, this is a very scary flop. Folding isn't weak tight in my opinion. It might hurt to fold, but what have you lost but a few big blinds.
Hey Split, man the improvements to my game because of you is insane, I probably watched all your videos 10x, I even have all your books, spr and stack to pot ratio took me to new heights, really took my mind for flight with InElastic Ranges, and people inability to let hands down when getting bad prices, and constantly fixing leaks and improving every single play to a +EV, the obtaining of money seems almost like destiny. Thanks for posting these videos and letting us explore your brain and how far the rabbit hole we can go and constantly press our minds to new explorations, and staying 5 moves above the rim of the field........This was a rant, ima send you a video Mr. Falcon was here, thanks Split!
Cheers Falcon!
Good fundamental thoughts about range in this video.
I play the micros, and I often look at my opponents donk bet %.
I find donk betting is very polarized, some of my opponents donk bet as high as 90%, when others donk as low as 5%.
Against some of my opponents I would easily fold the Jacks on this flop because they would almost definitely have either a set or two pair, or at the very very worst they would have a monster combo draw, like 45 of hearts or A6 of hearts.
In this particular spot I think, the donk bet looked like exactly, what it was: A draw wanting to set its own price and hopefully get multible callers to sweeten the pot odds. Fish often think this way, and he started with 90 BB, which is a fairly sure fish tell. If he wanted folds, or had a strong made hand, he would either have gone for a check-raise, or he would have gone for a much larger bet size like 80% pot.
So I feel, he pretty much turned his range face up with this half pot donk bet into 3 other players on a super wet board. And while Hero was not hugely ahead of draws on the flop, I like his idea of isolating the fish.
Knowing pretty much what kind of hand, the fish had, Hero should be able to play turn and river very well heads up in position. As in fact he did. Getting value on the turn and not putting in a penny more, when he was beat on the river.
I think most low stakes players will check/raise 2 pair+ and donk weak combo draws, especially half pot. Closer to full pot into 3 people would look stronger as a bet for protection on a wet board. Id think a raise is best where we keep the donk in and fold out some other hands that had equity and may have stuck around for the good price. Plus, what if there is a squeeze behind us? I think it’s much easier to play if we are getting 4bet rather than squeezed.
I think a turn overbet shove would've been a good play? We will get looked up by a lot of worse hands and lose to a couple of combos of 7x (if we assume he will 3-bet the flop with 2pair+). I don't think the villain will be folding his flush draw, top pair, overpair, a 6 maybe? Pocket 66, lots of combos we can get called by.
If you make the assumption that draws call the overbet, then yup, overbetting the turn can certainly be viable
@@splitsuit Doesn't matter if draws call or fold. What would be a disaster to fold out is 8x.
@@YayaTourney No disagreement =)
Just fold the jacks on the flop, 4 way and you are first to act behind the aggressor and if raised behind you generally have to fold or play a guessing game which you are usually behind. Almost any turn and river card is bad if not raised. Flop is either a large large raise committing yourself, or fold, and I would lean towards folding...
Hey splitsuit, thanks for the video. I like your thought process. Can you please tell us your qualifications? Are you on hendon mob database?
You're very welcome! I'm a live cash player, so no rings or bracelets to tout. I've written multiple books, released hundreds of videos, and coached 500+ students - so hopefully those suffice as my qualifications =)
@@splitsuit Thanks James. Keep up the good work.
@@jasperjr Cheers Jasper!
Hey split, what if the villian 4B on the flop? Do we fold?
I really really think this is a necessary topic. I was happy to see this topic. I just started the video and I’m just assuming that James is going to be protection oriented.
James,
Your videos changed my mind and almost single handedly made me a winning player.
I owe you so much.
I really regret I never got my end of the redchip stuff together for you.
All that said, I think you need to think really long and hard about this “concept” or “non concept” of protection. I did a vid called Stop Betting for Protection maybe ch., you literally just said to consider calling and not raising that flop., ok ok,.. that makes me happy. Hmmm., it might just be a semantics thing.
Still, the term doesn’t mean anything at all. It’s anything from a thin value bet to turning a made hand into a five out semi bluff., any concept that covers both ends of the spectrum is not real.
Peace and love homie
Oh wow, so you are even considering the river jam..
Ok ok
Ok, I do like the river bet but I think we should size down vs most villains because they are way way way too afraid of flushes. Ok. Great video James.
Honestly, easier for me to argue w my assumptions of how you would approach this than how you actually DID explain it.
Very good video.
👌
♥
Ironic. As I start watching this, I'm dealt QQ in middle position. Raise preflop 3X. Get 3 callers. Wet board. Led into with and a call in front of me. I raise 2.5X and get 2 callers. Turn completes the top end of a two-hole card straight.The leader shoves all in. Call. Call. Leader had nothing. Caller had suited connectors that hit the straight on the turn (also had 4 to a flush on the flop.) First hand. Out of the tournament with QQ in this exact situation.
With a donk bet and a call in front of you, the prudent action is to just call on the flop and hope for a brick turn card. I would only raise, if he donked for some silly amount like 10% of the pot. And when you face that action on the turn, you should just muck your hand and take a note on, what they had.
Maybe once in a moon the guy going all in is on a silly bluff or overplaying his TT or JJ. But you also had to beat the guy calling. And unless that guy is a complete fish, he have at least two pair here almost always. You raised on the flop, so he needed to be worried about your hand and not just the guy going all in.
I'd love to see the same video where we look at it from villains perspective and evaluate his play. Donk betting isn't a big part of my game and I'd love to hear thoughts on "when donking is a good idea"
I will say, that his half pot donk bet is pretty bad. He is never getting 3 opponents to fold, and he is not in great shape, if he get raised. His overcards are not always good, and he could be up against a dominating draw.
So he should just play defensively and check-call in this spot, and if he face a substantial turn bet, he should fold. When the board pair, he could be drawing dead, he could still be against a dominating draw, and it is difficult to get paid out of position, when he gets there.
If this was truly the first hand, Hero played against Zorro1957, his stack size is actually a pretty big fish tell, because that mean, he bought in for 4,47$. And why would anyone choose such an odd amount, unless it was his entire remaining available balance on the site.
@@fundiver198 i thought leading in to 3 people was ambitious at best. I'd love to see James do a video on when donk betting is a good idea. I do very little of it, as 90% of my poker hands I either have the lead or position. Right now, if I donk bet its typically bc "I flopped big against a player who I think has a lot of middling hands that he won't bet but will call down with."
Betting $2 OTT is terrible. Leaves V with just $1.50 behind OTR and we can't bluff. Gotta think about stack to pot ratio, and how we would want to play with all of our hands.
Because balancing our range is SUPER important at 5NL?
@@splitsuit Okay but still, most competent players can work out that if you only leave 1/6 of the pot behind going to the river, you are very unlikely to be bluffing
@@dgcfgfgfgffgfso following that logic, you assume V would fold more since 'hero can't be bluffing'...so you are barreling all of your air, right?
To me the issue is more, that we put ourselfes in a pretty awkward spot, if Villain lead the river, and we are getting 5:1. Even getting 3:1 it would not be the most fun spot, but I feel, it would at least be a somewhat easier fold.
I think the issue here is the case it gets awkard to play the hand 3 streets when we raise the donkbet on a rather scary board. I agree about raising to protect the hand and I am not scared of the donkbet. Problem is x3 still gives players behind with deeper stack a chance to call if they believe big never shoves + a great price for big to continue.
I prefer a raise to 1,50 (5,x). Leaving 3,86 behind and 3.62 in the pot if big calls, basically a potsize bet. Perfect chance to set up for a jam if the turn is "safe". In that case we can have some bluffs in our range too like A6, JT, KQhh, A9hh. Not only sets and overpairs.
Someone can tell me what the difference and when use the equity (of equilab for example) or the outs (together with pot odds). I'm confusing about this I don't know if i pretend to call I need to look the outs pot odds or the equity on equilab
Outs are a way of estimating equity if you assume that all of your outs give you the best hand at showdown. Equity is simply the percent of the time your hand will win at showdown after all possible board runouts and against your opponent's entire range.
Please turn up the volume in the next videos
It's properly leveled. Are you sure your system volume isn't a little low?
Volume it's perfectly fine
I personally downgraded pocket Jacks for myself because they never seem to play out how I plan. Bet strong preflop and an ace or king always seems to flop. Play passively and it ends up like a hand in the video. Flop a set and can't get any callers so don't get paid. JJ just doesn't like me.
I like you if that makes you feel any better =)
Nice mentality bro
JJ it's a part of your range , and i'd say close to the top
awesome content
Thanks Marian!
french sous titres pls ?
Villain's river check tho . . .. . .
gotta trap 'em!
@@splitsuit Isn't that a relevant comment for the river decision? How often is villain trapping here compared to betting first on the river when he has the flush?
@@kmonsen It certainly can be. If you think V would donk flushes/check single pairs on the river, it lends more validity to betting and trying to eek out that last bit of value...
I bought it and I'm loving it, going to help me play profitably at low stakes old fishy fishermen with too much time and money!
Enjoy it Phil! (but enjoy beating that game even more =P)
Calling is a negative equity play and raising 3X is even worse. You could minimize your equity loss by potting a raise but that's about it.
Can we still send you hands and if so how? I've played some interesting hands recently in 10NL and I'be honored to share them
Yup. www.splitsuit.com/send =)
You have the best poker channel on UA-cam but the worst audio quality.