The Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres Russel T. Davis was such a good script writer
@Jacob Wood That's exactly the point. Cosmic horror is fear of what you can never understand. In thirty seconds we get a taste of that kind of horror just hearing from someone who saw those things. No descriptions, no list of atrocities they committed, just the terror in his eyes when he says the names. Granted you need a top tier actor to pull it off but this is a case of a script writer knowing when not to show something for greater effect. Something Moffat clearly never learned.
@@mayotango1317 The universe in series 1 to 4 was full of fallout from the Time War. The Gelth were rendered incorporeal, the nestine consciousness's planet was destroyed. We are constantly hearing about and seeing damage done by the Last Great Time War. It's Moffat that took away all the consequences by whittling down the entire conflict to a single dalek fleet and single planet. Where were these cosmic horrors in the 50th? All we got was daleks and time lords shooting each other. It was so boring and anticlimatic.
@@BadWolf739 No, all the RTD era is the whole Tennant/Rose romance. In fact, the universe fears the Time Lords and "Doctor" mean "warrior" for other planets show the consecuences of the Time War.
Mug Shot "could have been King with his army meanwhiles" .. wtf does that even mean? Nightmare I can deal with, it's a 'thing' but a "neverwere" that shit is creepy. Like the angels, creatures of the abstract. Just thinking about them plunges a normal person to the brink of madness.. seeing one? I don't even wanna go there.
@@CaptApril123 The army of meanwhiles and neverweres was an army composed entirely of different bits of evolution that happened and never happened. Horrible creatures feared by all. Think of Lazarus.
While the expression on the Doctor's face as he looks at the Master holds fear and horror, it also shows a barely-contained fury as if he's struggling to hold back the urge to scream, "You absolute idiot! You have no idea what forces you are playing with!!!" But he holds back in an effort to explain to them that breaking the time-lock is so wrong, while trying to hold back his horror. 'He never raised his voice. That was the worst thing.' God, David Tennant is such an amazingly brilliant actor.
Davros: "Through the rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of creation. This is my ultimate victory, the destruction of *reality itself*!" Rassilon: "The end of time will come at my hand. The rupture will continue until it rips the Time Vortex apart . . . while *creation itself* ceases to be." Never noticed how similarly corrupt the leaders of both Time War factions eventually thought (on a universal scale).
@@Jarock316 well kinda, the Final Sanction would have ended up rebooting the universe and all so live would begin again, while nobody except the Daleks would survive Davros’ plan
Fun Fact: The Skaro Degredations were involuntary creations of the Time Lords. You see, the time lords had repeatedly tried to prevent the existence of the Daleks, like with the Genesis story arc in classic Doctor Who. But no matter what changed, no matter what reactent was removed from the equation, the Daleks were always the final product. But these weren’t ordinary Daleks. The repeated attempts to alter the course of Dalek history only spawned new, alternate versions of the daleks. The Daleks themselves took this idea of creating new daleks too travel to other realities to recruit these alternative Daleks. There were many different types. Each one of these alternate types were the Skaro Degredarions. One type looked like Floating Dalek heads with human torsos and robotic arms (the torso most likely being a vestigial characteristic from their Kaled ancestors). Another shaped like eggs, but walked on spider like limbs. Another type, looked like any normal Dalek, except it lacked the typical weapon and arm. Instead, it possessed a weapon that could eradicate someone from existence, similar to the cracks in time did to Rory.
And it just goes to show how desperate the Daleks got that they would even consider cooperation with such monstrosities. Every Dalek form would think theirs is perfect, and that all others are corruptions that should be exterminated.
The contrast between this speech and later episodes that showed the time war demonstrate why it works better conceptually than when visibly depicted. You can't do an appropriate adaption of a war that's meant to weaponise time because it's intended to be beyond comprehension. Its supposed to be wizards vs mechatanks at every point of time at once layered on top of each other but the best you can reasonably deliver is discount halo wars.
I think the final Siege of Gallifrey by the Daleks works fine, but the other entities that were born because of the war re better as undefined entities that are only as terrifying as the viewer's mind can conceive of is something that couldn't be realised on TV.
The way I understand it, the period of time known as the “time war” is time locked, meaning no time travel device can enter or leave without incurring hideous repercussions (ship destroyed, crew killed/driven mad etc). The war doctor was only able to leave due to a wormhole created by the sentient weapon known as “the moment.” During the time war a picture was painted using a stasis cube, it’s title “no more” the thirteen doctors were able to enter into the time locked period by using the painting as a sort of staging post as they were simultaneously outside the time lock and inside, as such so long as they knew the location of the painting at a given point in history they could come and go as they pleased. The horde of travesties, nightmare child etc were not on Galifrey at the time as such the doctors plan if freezing the entire planet and bringing it back later would not bring those particular monsters back as well. The problem Doctor 10 faced was that Rassilon wanted to break the time lock meaning time travel through that period in time would be possible thereby allowing abominations created in the time war to come and go as they pleased. Instead by freezing Galifrey and Galifrey only the Doctor can now search for it at his leisure. Rassilon and the War council were both acting separately. Hopefully this helps clear up confusion, or it might just produce more, who knows?
@@kevinfanning8027 How? The Doctor still had to live with the decision to destroy Gallifrey. He still had to live with his choice to destroy everything. They literally said it in the episode, the timelines were desynctonized, the Doctors wouldn't be able to retain the memories of saving Gallifrey. No. What Chibnel did with Destroying Gallifrey again is worse by a longshot.
@@kevinfanning8027 Except War & 10 couldn't keep the memory of saving Gallifrey due to their timelines being out of sync. Doesn't cheapen The Doctor at all.
The only thing that confuses me (but I think it's the writers' fault) is the whole concept of a time lock. Like the classic doctors still exist, so couldn't you travel to an encounter with the first doctor in the 60s and then sneak into the tardis and wait until he lands on gallifrey and then wait until the time war happens?
@@fyradur I think it works like the events of the time war have a bubble around them not the planet if he wanted to he could go to old gallifrey and the space left when it was destroyed but that specific point is not accessible bar a few ways like wormholes and such. Basically the points in time in which time war happened are in a time lock not the points in space gallifrey exist’s hope that explains it
I love the expression on Dalton's face when he hears the Doctor recounting all the monsters they were dealing with. You can see the torment and near insanity on his face from his suffering.
This is how you do rassilon. The new guy felt like an old fool playing at conqueror. Timothy Dalton brings such gravitas that when he first waves that gauntlet you get an idea of just how powerful he is. When he says he can unmake the universe itself, you god damn believe it. Even the new version of rassilon his gauntlet sucks it doesnt wrap around his whole hand at all and the collar looks silly on him. This.....this is how you show power. With the flick of a wrist he can change a world. And with that implication, if even someone with that power cant survive the war, then what chance does humanity have?
To be honest I don't think it was the actors fault. As usual it's Moffat's writing and show running that's letting down more than capable actors. If I remember correctly that dude that played Rassilon in Heaven Sent was in Game of Thrones.
This is because the writing of the show has NERFED all of the darker qualities that made it appealing to young adults and adults alike. They destroyed the show. At this point you could still tell they were willing to do SOME things right. They casted Timothy fucking Dalton! Timothy fucking Dalton does not do bad guy in half measures, he does not know how to half ass it, it devotes the entirety of his ass to the role. Like a true God of the Time Lords after an eternity of War would.
Then again, this is kinda the point. By that point, Rassilon had become an old fool. He has gone from a so-called physical god to a self-abosrbed time walker. He was always that way. The varnish and such is gone.
The Time War as described in this episode: the worst war in existence. A nightmare of horrors far beyond the Daleks and Time Lords. So hellish and horrific that the Time Lords where driven to end TIME ITSELF. The Time War after this episode: Lots and lots of Daleks shooting.
I like to think that the Time War we saw in "Day of the Doctor" was the very last part of the war, when the Time Lords and Daleks had used all their superweapons and defenses and were just down to the equivalent of hurling rocks and sticks at each other. It still looked relatively futuristic to us, but it wasn't a patch on the kind of crazy that'd come before.
@@Brasswatchmanthis is exactly what happened, actually. Both sides had exhausted all their weapons of ultimate mass destruction (aside from The Moment) so conventional warfare was the only next logical step in the war (to the Daleks, anyway). The thing is, the Time Lords had already weaponized paradoxes by this point in the war which was why they planned the Final Sanction in the first fucking place.
yes i always felt unsatisfied with the depiction of the time war in the 50th anniversary. i loved the 8th doctor audio episode where there was a weapon that could turn back time every time something went wrong. if you shoot a bullet and it doesn't do what you want, you reverse time and it does the thing you want it to. if the strategy you had doesn't work, time is reversed and you start again. basically a weapon that was truly weaponising time travel. now THAT sounded like a time war. the most advanced civilization in the entirety of creation and all we got were guns....
MASTER: But this is fantastic, isn't it? The Time Lords restored. DOCTOR: You weren't there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the Timelock's broken, then everything's coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres. The War turned into hell. And that's what you've opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending. MASTER: My kind of world.
@@coachlombardi9657 We will initiate...the Final Sanction. The end of time will come, but at my hand. *The rupture will continue until it rips the time vortex apart.*
@@coachlombardi9657 We will ascend to become creatures of consciousness alone. Free of these bodies. Free of time. And cause and effect, *while creation itself ceases to be!*
To be honest I didn’t mind the day of the doctor interpretation because it felt like it was truly the last days or the “furthest edge” of the time war, where only the time lords and the daleks are left, each being a weak and faded remnant of themselves They say that the forbidden weapons have all been “used” against the daleks, used, past tense. Gallifrey at that point has burnt through all the resources they have, and if destroying the dalek fleet surrounding gallifrey ended the time war, then that means skaro or any other home of theirs is a wasted ruin So it makes sense to me that we’re not seeing the cosmic horror shenanigans because that has already run it’s course when we see the time war in DOTD
My headcannon for the Could-Have-Been-King was that he was an alternate Time Lord ruler they created and the Never-Were's and Meanwhiles were the corrupted Time Lords who were all walking paradoxes. Like imagine seeing someone and then they talk to you about events they werent there for but you were and you couldn't remember them, they never were there and your mind just breaks
Most of the things mentioned by the Doctor (except for the Skarro Degredations) sound like renegade factions of Time Lords or their creations which turned on them. I think the Time Lords by that time HAD become as bad as the Daleks, or maybe even far worse.
@@karimblix4378 the Dalek Degregarions were unintended creations of the Time Lords attempts to prevent the existence of the Dalek race. Every attempt to alter history resulted in alternate versions of daleks
This is how I imagine the Could-have-been King and the Meanwhiles and Neverweres. There's a time lord messenger at an outpost that is under attack by the daleks. He has an important message he needs to get out but the communications station is damaged. He has to get the message directly to the array to be able to send it out. He runs a gauntlet of carnage, falling over broken bodies before he finally makes it. He sends the message out and smiles to himself. There is suddenly a horrible rending noise and he is standing back at the communications station. The message hasn't been sent out. In a panic he runs the gauntlet again but this time where there wasn't one before a dalek crosses his path and exterminates him. He dies in agony. There is the sound of rending again and he's back at the communications station. He touches his shoulder. There's a dark red burn where the dalek shot him. But that didn't happen, did it? He runs the gauntlet again. That new dalek is there again but this time there is a time lord soldier that shoots it dead. As it explodes the messenger takes some shrapnel to the face but he keeps moving. He makes it to the communications array and sends out the message. He hears that horrible rending again. It's louder this time. And he's back at his station. He feels his face, there is blood from where he took shrapnel. We see flashes as he runs the gauntlet over and over again accruing new wounds. A blow to his face, to his legs, to his arms. Sometimes he makes, sometimes he dies. Every time he dies he feels more confused and more angry. Rage fills him as he continues to run this futile gauntlet. Every time it ends in either victory or defeat he hears that horrible, terrible, deafening rending that sends him back to run all over again. Sometimes there is a new dalek in his way. Sometimes another soldier comes to his rescue. Sometimes the way is eerily silent. Sometimes the entire building explodes before he can make it a few yards. Every time he comes back, more wounded, the blows accumulated on his skin till it barely looks like flesh anymore. Every time it is a little harder to remember why. Why is he running? Why does this message need sending? What's the point? The last time the rending nearly kills him. He wishes it would kill him. He doesn't want to go on. He's on the ground but the rage keeps his heart beating. He is so angry, but at what? Why is he angry? Slowly he pulls himself to his feet. We can't see his face but as he stands at the communications station there is someone in front of him. The time lord soldier turns around. In front of him is the messenger, the one told to run the gauntlet. He knows this man right? He was this man, wasn't he? "Who are you?" asks the messenger. The one who had been through the gauntlet so many times puts his hand on the wall to steady himself. The hand is so covered in scars that it looks like scales, or stone, it doesn't look skin anymore. "I..." the voice that comes out of his throat is choked but commanding. It doesn't sound a noise a normal person should be able to make. "I, I could have been." he says slowly. The messenger gestures behind him. "What about them?" The could-have-been messenger slowly turns to look behind him and sees dozens of people in varying states of decay, their faces unfocused. We can't see them clearly. On seeing them he gives a little chuckle. "They're here for me. They never were." And faster than his laboured breathing and shaky body should allow he pulls his gun and shoots the messenger in front of him. He doesn't remember why the man was important but if he was important enough to remember he must be important enough to kill right? Right. He hears the rending sound again. No, he doesn't like that. Doesn't want to leave. The air distorts but then it's gone. He is still standing at the communications station with a legion at his back.
@@readsomebooks666 Sorta imagined the Skaro Degradations are daleks that have deserted their metal housings and basically become mind flayers. A bit like that dalek in Resolution. They take over hosts, planting pieces of themselves within which slowly consume the host till a new Degradation emerges full formed from the host's mind. The more they propagate like this the more alien they become to the actual daleks until they are hated and attacked by both sides.
did moffat ever explain what happened to any of these things, when gallifrey returned it was fine, no billions of daleks or would have been kings or nightmare childs.
Well yes he did. The Doctors were allowed into the little "bubble" they called it due to the moment which was the end the time war button as it was sentient and posed as Rose/Bad Wolf. So only they can get in and out. The plan The Doctors had was to appear Gallifrey had been destroyed in the crossfire by The Daleks and The Time Lords. But instead at just the right moment they captured it into the pocket universe so it appeared to have been destroyed everything else in The Time War remained but what ended it was different
Steven Moffat.... replaced this.... with his excuse of, "Oh no, Galifrey isn't gone! It's just in a pocket universe." This is so much better than the excuse he concocted. TIme Lords going nuts. Devolving into the villains instead of being the heroes. I wanted this, where it's almost like a post apocalyptic universe with no Time Lords to keep everything in order.
I started to think the exact same thing, tbh I would rather in day of the Doctor all three of them blew up gallifrey, and then stop the zygon invasion it would've been more better
Bringing back Galifrey in Day of the Doctor was Moffats greatest mistake in my opinion.What I also hate it how the events of End of Time have pretty much been reconed since 2013.
God damnit I wanted to see this devolved version of the Time Lords more, whether in flashback or time travel. But noooooo, now we have this borderline retconned version. Bleh, such a waste.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 you owe me quite a bill for the ocular cancer i contracted reading your comment, lord almighty what wrong with you anglos?
@@Ordoabchao-x9k Well, I certainly think that was a bit of a overreaction. Let me say that both of them are capable of creating some good quality writing but most of the time it was when they weren't show runner and under the watchful gaze of someone else. Give them the run of the town and they'll paint it red with a side of shit to go with it.
Loved this scene. These mythical beings, powerfull beyond imagination, twisted by centuries of war (or an eternity, depending on your perspective), still veiled in secrecy and not knowing the extent of their power. Never saw the original series, so to me they were truly mythical. The apax of civilization and technology and their destruction the source of the Doctor's tragic persona. But then we saw them. And we got a bunch of regular people that were conquered in a few days, albeit willingly. As with all myths that let your imagination run wild, seeing the result makes it so... ordinary. And disappointing. I will say that I got super excited at the end of DOTD, with 11 starting his quest of finding Gallifrey. And the end of Heaven Sent was epic. But like I said, the result was disappointing. They are just another species now.
I totally agree. In Davies' run, the Time War and its participants were painted on this almost abstract level. I enjoyed Moffat's go at the Doctor, but was disappointed that what little of the Time War we got to see was just some Dalek saucers shooting at Gallifrey.
@@francisnicolas1819 Read this in another comment, but it's like trying to explain WWII to someone who never experienced it by showing them a film of some guys in a field somewhere shooting at each other. It doesn't really capture all of the suffering, the chaos, and death that ended in the first and thus far only use of nuclear weapons. They would watch the video thinking, "well this doesn't seem THAT bad", never understanding the true horror it was.
i feel like everything after this episode should be considered its own separate series, taking place in another parallel universe, like rick and morty can do.
As fun as day of the doctor was, it ruined the mystery of the time war. Honestly what made it so terrifying to viewers was the fact that we could only imagine how bad it actually was
@@Mo__Hamad I mean I really feel like the part of the war we SAW in the day of the doctor was incomparable to the rest of the war. I mean, the war raged on long enough for a young John Hurt doctor to look old and gray. Given it takes Matt smiths doctor hundreds of years just to age, I’d say in the TRUE length of the time war there is still a mystery of the greater horrors. In the day of the doctor, we were seeing the time lords at their weakest. Imagine what Skaro had to unleash on them to get the masters of time down to that.
@@Ditto-js1or I heard somewhere that the Time War lasted an eternity for both the Time Lords and the Daleks, probably because of time travel shenanigans.
I hate how in the day of the doctor, the 10th doctor is completely fine with "saving gallifrey" in the 50th, but here at the end of his life/incarnation, he talks about all the abominations, about how gallifrey was basically hell. But no he just has to move gallifrey into a pocket universe with the help of 12 other doctors and everythings ok.
Even though Gallifrey has been corrupted by years of war, it's still the Doctor's home planet, with millions of innocent people on it, of course the Doctor would try any other option to save the day without killing. Besides, the Doctor regretted destroying his home and everyone on it, so saving his world, failing to or not, he'll always take that option.
@@coachlombardi9657 The problem is that it wasn't an option. There was no solution that saved Gallifrey, without also saving the cthulu esque nightmares that the war created. Not until Moffat rewrote the script and just pretended that the war was a bunch of people with guns shooting each other and all you had to do to win was hide for long enough.
Now that Russell T. Davis is coming back as the writer, let's hope he could do the same top notch writing for the Fifteenth Doctor (Yes. They confirmed that David Tennant is the Fourteenth Doctor). I know people say the writing has been bad since Series 11, but I still have high hopes for the series thanks to Davis.
He also has a history of bringing the show back from the brink, he brought it back after the movie did poorly in the states and made some controversial plot twists
Well this aged well...most of the fandom can't stand that he's back and more creatively liberated. I'm enjoying it fine, but the declining interest and ratings are hard to ignore, Davies hasn't been the answer, and Ncuti is useless.
Basically the Time Lords were willing to destroy the entire universe to escape the Dalek invasion of Gallifrey seen in the Day of the Doctor. The Doctor saw this as a horrific abdication of the responsibility the Time Lords had to all younger races, but since he couldn't defeat the Daleks either, his only viable answer at the time was to detonate the Moment and destroy both sides, ending the threat to the universe at the expense of Gallifrey's helpless civilian population.
For the ones that are curious how powerfull the nightmare child is at the end of the war they duplicated earth a thousand times and fired it at the nightmare child as bullets
I always imagined a giant, sentient black nebula in the shape of a doll's head, with glowing white eyes and a mouth spewing star-sized tentacles of light, devouring entire solar systems
I always guessed it had to be some kind of transgenic or directly mutation-at-will creatures or something worse. It is the only way the word "Travesties" could be horrifying enough in Doctor Who to not be turned into a joke.
From this description the Time War would sound like a conflict which even the Xeelee from Xeelee Sequence and Downstreamers of Manifold would be very much have the right to be concerned about. It sounds like a cosmic horror that is of SCP proportions.
@@NoName-hg6cc Indeed Xeelee Sequence is a verse that is quite powerful. However in the Doctor Who Expanded Universe there maybe something which can rival even the mechanisms of the Xeelee. The Time Lords sure did create some potent superweapons like the Eye of Harmony and the Ultimate Sanction. And there are beings like the Grace who are greater then the Time Lords and there is one device so powerful it may threaten the Xeelee Sequence cosmology. Known as the Glory a myterious machine of tremendous power and capabilities that goes high above a singular multiverse.
@@thorshammer7883 Of course, Time Lords are equals to the Xelee and perhaps the Photino Birds. But there are things, beside the Grace, that dwarf all three of them: the Monads
@@NoName-hg6cc You said the opposite in your first comment you said the Xeelee are above the Time Lords not equals. The Monads are impotent entities as far as I am concerned in the Xeelee verse. They don't do anything and them sleeping in Black Holes is quite average for the Xeelee. They not really impressive in retrospective. And still what about the Glory?
@@thorshammer7883 No, you said Time War was something far above Xelee. I just said the war between Xelee and Photino Birds is so horrific even thr Time Lords wouldn't pass through it unscathed What did Grace in Whoverse beside sleeping and existing, hardly feats to look at? What about it?
This scene is why the Time War should never be shown on screen. How the hell are you supposed to show what's described in this without it being lackluster compared to your imagination.
"Even the Time Lords can't survive that!" I've always wondered whether the Doctor meant that literally or figuratively - did he mean that the Time Lords couldn't get out of that kind of nightmare alive, or that they couldn't face it without losing their sanity? Rassilon's solution suggests that it might be the latter...
I just like to imagine that each new incarnation gets more resilient than the last. 1st was only 300 when his body wore out, whereas 11th lasted over a millennium. Besides, 4th had already lived a long enough life to wear his body down a bit while 10th was barely 3 years old, fresh off the platter.
“The could-have-been-King and his armies of meanwhiles and never-weres.” What a great name that is. Do we have any information on who that is and what they are?
A World Of Pure Imagination it still happened tho otherwise we wouldn’t have 11 the way we did. Basically this is based after day of the Doctor in this timeline The Doctor doesn’t remember saving the Time lords.
So Rassilon and the Time Lord council are basically like Ilanthe and the Accelerators in Peter F. Hamilton's Void Trilogy. They only care about ascending to post-physical status and don't care if they have to obliterate the whole universe in the process.
We need a whole season of the show to explain the difference between this version of the time wars' end and the version we saw in day of the doctor, where it was just Time Lords vs Daleks. Also the difference between Rassilon's influence over the time lords here vs his appearance in Hell Bent, there's too much inconsistency to be left unresolved.
You weren't there in the final days of Doctor Who. You never saw what premiered. But if Chris Chibnall is showrunner, then everything's coming through. Not just the bad scripts but the end of all classic Who villains. Companions played by pieces of wood. The doctor using words like fam and robophobic. The leaving of Murray Gold. The series turned into hell. That's what BBC released to the earth. Hell is descending!
@@dwightk.schrute6743 We will view the final episode. The end of Doctor Who will come at Chibnall's hand. The fan theories will continue untill they rip the fanbase apart. We will become dependent on Big Finish productions alone. Free of Chibnall. Free of environmental messages and bad acting and the timeless child. While the canon itself ceases to be
I just never accepted it. That trash bins with laser plungers were so powerful the oldest civilization in the universe had to create paradoxical fever dreams to fight them.
They're not, they're a mutated race in extremely advanced tanks. I mean those dalek battlesuits are extremely adaptable, shown many times. They're vulnerable to something, then, they adapt and no longer are.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 I was being slightly hyperbolic. However even within the realm of exaggeration, the Dalek are constantly presented as being universal level threats, and they're just.....tiny withered bodies in oddly shaped wheelchair tanks.
@@HotaruZoku the daleks have created some of the most deadliest wmd ever conceived in the universe, such as the reality Bomb, and Temporal Cannons (devices that erased people from time and space, to the point no one (except the timelords) remembered they even existed). Give them time and resources, and they have the power to destroy every single thing that ever has or ever will exist in the omniverse
scenes like this make me wonder if moffat actually watched any episode from the RTD era at all before taking over the show lmao like how can you see this and then come up with the bullshit that happened in the 50th
@@aussiegod4269 Both RTD and Moffat were huge Classic Who fan boys. Their eras reflect how their nine year old selves viewed the Doctor. Unfortunately Moffat's view was of him as an unkillable hero whose always in control, never on the back foot, and always saves the day which nine times out of ten does not make for interesting stories.
They should have never bought Gallifrey back and left the Time War to our inaginations. The actual War has never been shown except for the small scenes with the War Doctor which were frankly disappointing. I hope they keep it that way because no matter what it will be disappointing.
I would love to see some art comic of Master and Doctor playing together as the kids. Or just them walking close to each other in that mensioned academy
Because Moffat doesn't like the idea of his childhood hero failing at something. Every single one of those things was on the surface of Gallifrey when the Doctor "saved" it. They should have been saved to but instead we just quietly pretend they never existed.
And that’s why the doctor decided to use the moment to destory time lords and daleks because they had become worse then each other and doctor saw what was happening to them he didn’t want to do it
I imagine the nightmare child as a massive baby head with tentacles devouring anything in its path. Let loose just beyond the planet to consume Dalek ships but with each ship it eats its hunger grows. Soon it found the ships no longer appetizing and turned instead to TimeLord cities. The Could Have Been King a TimeLord that has been infused with TARDIS energy allowing it to travel through time on its own, and in doing so creating armies of things that are not supposed to exist, monsters from rifts in the universe. The Skaro Degradation as abominations even the Dalek's despised but must contend with in order to survive the war. And yet thats the beauty of this scene you can imagine these monsters as anything.
You know what would been a great thought? If BBC ever did it? “The could have been king, with his army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres...” The Time Lords of Galifrey, desperate to end the war. Broke the laws of time and space. Creating numerous paradox’s that consumed vast portions of space, cracking apart the fabric of reality to enter a new one. A single envoy. Into a old place. A kingdom of stone, of swords and shields. Of valor, chivalry, sacrifice and magic. As the Timelords entered the Kingdom of Albion, it’s fate changed forever. In a land of myth, and a time of magic. The destiny of Albion and the galaxy rested on the shoulders of a young man. His name, is Merlin.
Me watching this in 2009: "Oh wow the Time War sounds like the scariest... and coolest thing ever! I can't wait to see it!" 2013 when The Day of The Doctor came out: "Biggest. Letdown. Ever!" -Comic Book Guy
I know it makes the Day Of The Doctor redundant but if The Time Lords were planning to rip the Time Vortex apart and might've still had that plan in operation even after Rassilon's departure in Hell Bent; maybe it's a good thing the Master nuked Gallifrey wiping out the Time Lords once and for all.
@@lochness5524 of course not, No. But if humanity has taught me anything. Innocents always get hurt or killed while others seek power and control... Time Lords are no different to that concept I think.
We don't even know what side it's on. Script notes said it was the Dalek Emperor's Nightmare Child, but the fact that in the first year of the War, it fought through an entire Dalek fleet (mind you standard Dalek saucers are planet busters) and just ate Davros' entire command ship, hints it may have been Time Lord weaponry. Must have been terrifying.
DarkSteal568 No that was an exploding Tardis, the time lords trapped in a separate pocket universe used those cracks to search for their original ie this one
So like, if the Doctor saved Gallifrey in the last days of the war, shouldnt a bunch of these horrors have been on the planet and survived with it. For that matter, if the Doctor saves Gallifrey in the last days of the war, wouldnt the Final Sanction then be given the go ahead?
This line was actually good. He destroyed Gallifrey for a reason. The day of the Doctor ruined it all. It's one of the big failures of this show. When I began to watch this I thought that omnipotent ,,bad wolf" was the problem. It's nothing compared to this betrayal. I consider this as the true ending of Gallifrey arc.
Stephen Byrne Well yeah obviously it’s insane to kill all of creation and every other race in order to save only themselves, but it shows how much alike they become to the daleks who tried the exact same thing in Journeys end.
The Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres
Russel T. Davis was such a good script writer
@Jacob Wood That's exactly the point. Cosmic horror is fear of what you can never understand. In thirty seconds we get a taste of that kind of horror just hearing from someone who saw those things. No descriptions, no list of atrocities they committed, just the terror in his eyes when he says the names. Granted you need a top tier actor to pull it off but this is a case of a script writer knowing when not to show something for greater effect. Something Moffat clearly never learned.
So...why the universe feel like never happened between Series 1 to 4. No consecuences to the Time War.
@@BadWolf739 Now we had the Timeless Children.
@@mayotango1317 The universe in series 1 to 4 was full of fallout from the Time War. The Gelth were rendered incorporeal, the nestine consciousness's planet was destroyed. We are constantly hearing about and seeing damage done by the Last Great Time War.
It's Moffat that took away all the consequences by whittling down the entire conflict to a single dalek fleet and single planet. Where were these cosmic horrors in the 50th? All we got was daleks and time lords shooting each other. It was so boring and anticlimatic.
@@BadWolf739 No, all the RTD era is the whole Tennant/Rose romance.
In fact, the universe fears the Time Lords and "Doctor" mean "warrior" for other planets show the consecuences of the Time War.
Just the thought of "the nightmare child" who swallowed davros' ship hole really scares me just thinking of it
Mug Shot "could have been King with his army meanwhiles" .. wtf does that even mean? Nightmare I can deal with, it's a 'thing' but a "neverwere" that shit is creepy. Like the angels, creatures of the abstract. Just thinking about them plunges a normal person to the brink of madness.. seeing one? I don't even wanna go there.
sounds like an army of paradoxes lead by a paradox
@@CaptApril123 The army of meanwhiles and neverweres was an army composed entirely of different bits of evolution that happened and never happened. Horrible creatures feared by all. Think of Lazarus.
Dwight K. Schrute how do uno that
@@susanmarsden8086 Tardis wiki probably. There is a lot of information about the time war on this site.
"You never saw what was born" you can hear the fear shaking in his voice, a true mastery of acting in David's case
While the expression on the Doctor's face as he looks at the Master holds fear and horror, it also shows a barely-contained fury as if he's struggling to hold back the urge to scream, "You absolute idiot! You have no idea what forces you are playing with!!!" But he holds back in an effort to explain to them that breaking the time-lock is so wrong, while trying to hold back his horror.
'He never raised his voice. That was the worst thing.'
God, David Tennant is such an amazingly brilliant actor.
Davros: "Through the rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of creation. This is my ultimate victory, the destruction of *reality itself*!"
Rassilon: "The end of time will come at my hand. The rupture will continue until it rips the Time Vortex apart . . . while *creation itself* ceases to be."
Never noticed how similarly corrupt the leaders of both Time War factions eventually thought (on a universal scale).
And that's why the Doctor had to stop them. Seriously, Stevie and Chrisy should never have touched Gallifrey.
Except Davros's plan would keep ONLY the Daleks alive while all other life is reduced to ash, keeping reality intact.
@@Jarock316 well kinda, the Final Sanction would have ended up rebooting the universe and all so live would begin again, while nobody except the Daleks would survive Davros’ plan
@@adrianvine7653 The Final Sanctum wasn't a reboot of the universe, but the end of time itself.
Fun Fact: The Skaro Degredations were involuntary creations of the Time Lords. You see, the time lords had repeatedly tried to prevent the existence of the Daleks, like with the Genesis story arc in classic Doctor Who. But no matter what changed, no matter what reactent was removed from the equation, the Daleks were always the final product. But these weren’t ordinary Daleks. The repeated attempts to alter the course of Dalek history only spawned new, alternate versions of the daleks. The Daleks themselves took this idea of creating new daleks too travel to other realities to recruit these alternative Daleks. There were many different types. Each one of these alternate types were the Skaro Degredarions. One type looked like Floating Dalek heads with human torsos and robotic arms (the torso most likely being a vestigial characteristic from their Kaled ancestors). Another shaped like eggs, but walked on spider like limbs. Another type, looked like any normal Dalek, except it lacked the typical weapon and arm. Instead, it possessed a weapon that could eradicate someone from existence, similar to the cracks in time did to Rory.
What’s the source for this? I’d love to read further into it!
@@UGNAvalon Doctor Who: Engines of War. That’s the novel you’ll have to read to see these creatures
@@lochness5524 Many thanks! ^_^
And it just goes to show how desperate the Daleks got that they would even consider cooperation with such monstrosities. Every Dalek form would think theirs is perfect, and that all others are corruptions that should be exterminated.
@@agsystems8220 last years New Years Eve special is further proof of this, as well as the Winston Churchill episode
His "creatures of conscious" plan seems consistent with Rassilon's appearance in The Five Doctors.
The contrast between this speech and later episodes that showed the time war demonstrate why it works better conceptually than when visibly depicted. You can't do an appropriate adaption of a war that's meant to weaponise time because it's intended to be beyond comprehension. Its supposed to be wizards vs mechatanks at every point of time at once layered on top of each other but the best you can reasonably deliver is discount halo wars.
I think the final Siege of Gallifrey by the Daleks works fine, but the other entities that were born because of the war re better as undefined entities that are only as terrifying as the viewer's mind can conceive of is something that couldn't be realised on TV.
i dont think the siege of galifrey was at the heart of the war which is where the paradoxes were coming from
The way I understand it, the period of time known as the “time war” is time locked, meaning no time travel device can enter or leave without incurring hideous repercussions (ship destroyed, crew killed/driven mad etc).
The war doctor was only able to leave due to a wormhole created by the sentient weapon known as “the moment.”
During the time war a picture was painted using a stasis cube, it’s title “no more” the thirteen doctors were able to enter into the time locked period by using the painting as a sort of staging post as they were simultaneously outside the time lock and inside, as such so long as they knew the location of the painting at a given point in history they could come and go as they pleased.
The horde of travesties, nightmare child etc were not on Galifrey at the time as such the doctors plan if freezing the entire planet and bringing it back later would not bring those particular monsters back as well.
The problem Doctor 10 faced was that Rassilon wanted to break the time lock meaning time travel through that period in time would be possible thereby allowing abominations created in the time war to come and go as they pleased.
Instead by freezing Galifrey and Galifrey only the Doctor can now search for it at his leisure.
Rassilon and the War council were both acting separately.
Hopefully this helps clear up confusion, or it might just produce more, who knows?
Still a bunch of retcon bullshit that ruins the doctor's character
@@kevinfanning8027 How? The Doctor still had to live with the decision to destroy Gallifrey.
He still had to live with his choice to destroy everything. They literally said it in the episode, the timelines were desynctonized, the Doctors wouldn't be able to retain the memories of saving Gallifrey.
No. What Chibnel did with Destroying Gallifrey again is worse by a longshot.
@@kevinfanning8027 Except War & 10 couldn't keep the memory of saving Gallifrey due to their timelines being out of sync. Doesn't cheapen The Doctor at all.
The only thing that confuses me (but I think it's the writers' fault) is the whole concept of a time lock.
Like the classic doctors still exist, so couldn't you travel to an encounter with the first doctor in the 60s and then sneak into the tardis and wait until he lands on gallifrey and then wait until the time war happens?
@@fyradur I think it works like the events of the time war have a bubble around them not the planet if he wanted to he could go to old gallifrey and the space left when it was destroyed but that specific point is not accessible bar a few ways like wormholes and such. Basically the points in time in which time war happened are in a time lock not the points in space gallifrey exist’s hope that explains it
I love the expression on Dalton's face when he hears the Doctor recounting all the monsters they were dealing with. You can see the torment and near insanity on his face from his suffering.
I love how even The Master was horrified by what Rassilon and his society had planned
of course. the master desires to rule. what is the point of ruling if everything is gone?
This makes me want like a whole trilogy of movies just on the time war I think that would be so coool
Film and tv industry barely utilises good ideas these days sadly
Argh..John hurt just had to go dying on us 😩
@@analothor he might be able to be re-created with CGI. Like Tarken was.
I think it is better to keep it offscreen, leaves the horror to our imaginations which is much more powerful
@@samuelrowbotham6322 Yes.
They have never done the time war justice, the war that is implied in this scene sounds insane.
Nothing they filmed could have ever lived up to it
This is how you do rassilon. The new guy felt like an old fool playing at conqueror. Timothy Dalton brings such gravitas that when he first waves that gauntlet you get an idea of just how powerful he is. When he says he can unmake the universe itself, you god damn believe it. Even the new version of rassilon his gauntlet sucks it doesnt wrap around his whole hand at all and the collar looks silly on him. This.....this is how you show power. With the flick of a wrist he can change a world. And with that implication, if even someone with that power cant survive the war, then what chance does humanity have?
To be honest I don't think it was the actors fault. As usual it's Moffat's writing and show running that's letting down more than capable actors. If I remember correctly that dude that played Rassilon in Heaven Sent was in Game of Thrones.
This is because the writing of the show has NERFED all of the darker qualities that made it appealing to young adults and adults alike. They destroyed the show. At this point you could still tell they were willing to do SOME things right.
They casted Timothy fucking Dalton! Timothy fucking Dalton does not do bad guy in half measures, he does not know how to half ass it, it devotes the entirety of his ass to the role. Like a true God of the Time Lords after an eternity of War would.
Dalton wasn't available for filming.. Moffat wanted him, but heck, that's entertainment.
Then again, this is kinda the point. By that point, Rassilon had become an old fool. He has gone from a so-called physical god to a self-abosrbed time walker. He was always that way. The varnish and such is gone.
If you only knew the new season
0:27: even rascilon is spooked by the nightmare child.
Never noticed that!
I imagine Rassalon was fully aware of what each were capable of not just the nightmare child
The Time War as described in this episode: the worst war in existence. A nightmare of horrors far beyond the Daleks and Time Lords. So hellish and horrific that the Time Lords where driven to end TIME ITSELF.
The Time War after this episode: Lots and lots of Daleks shooting.
I like to think that the Time War we saw in "Day of the Doctor" was the very last part of the war, when the Time Lords and Daleks had used all their superweapons and defenses and were just down to the equivalent of hurling rocks and sticks at each other. It still looked relatively futuristic to us, but it wasn't a patch on the kind of crazy that'd come before.
@@Brasswatchmanthis is exactly what happened, actually. Both sides had exhausted all their weapons of ultimate mass destruction (aside from The Moment) so conventional warfare was the only next logical step in the war (to the Daleks, anyway).
The thing is, the Time Lords had already weaponized paradoxes by this point in the war which was why they planned the Final Sanction in the first fucking place.
yes i always felt unsatisfied with the depiction of the time war in the 50th anniversary. i loved the 8th doctor audio episode where there was a weapon that could turn back time every time something went wrong. if you shoot a bullet and it doesn't do what you want, you reverse time and it does the thing you want it to. if the strategy you had doesn't work, time is reversed and you start again. basically a weapon that was truly weaponising time travel. now THAT sounded like a time war. the most advanced civilization in the entirety of creation and all we got were guns....
I worried about the nightmare child.
MASTER: But this is fantastic, isn't it? The Time Lords restored.
DOCTOR: You weren't there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the Timelock's broken, then everything's coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres. The War turned into hell. And that's what you've opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending.
MASTER: My kind of world.
9
Just listen, cause even the Timelords can't survive that!
@@coachlombardi9657 We will initiate...the Final Sanction. The end of time will come, but at my hand. *The rupture will continue until it rips the time vortex apart.*
@@egregoric The Master: That's suicide!
@@coachlombardi9657 We will ascend to become creatures of consciousness alone. Free of these bodies. Free of time. And cause and effect, *while creation itself ceases to be!*
To be honest I didn’t mind the day of the doctor interpretation because it felt like it was truly the last days or the “furthest edge” of the time war, where only the time lords and the daleks are left, each being a weak and faded remnant of themselves
They say that the forbidden weapons have all been “used” against the daleks, used, past tense. Gallifrey at that point has burnt through all the resources they have, and if destroying the dalek fleet surrounding gallifrey ended the time war, then that means skaro or any other home of theirs is a wasted ruin
So it makes sense to me that we’re not seeing the cosmic horror shenanigans because that has already run it’s course when we see the time war in DOTD
Meh, excuses
It’s really incredible that Russell created the whole new mythology in the form of the Last Great Time War. Credit to him.
My headcannon for the Could-Have-Been-King was that he was an alternate Time Lord ruler they created and the Never-Were's and Meanwhiles were the corrupted Time Lords who were all walking paradoxes. Like imagine seeing someone and then they talk to you about events they werent there for but you were and you couldn't remember them, they never were there and your mind just breaks
The Final Sanction is the Reality Bomb, except worse. The Time Lords truly did become as bad as the Daleks
Most of the things mentioned by the Doctor (except for the Skarro Degredations) sound like renegade factions of Time Lords or their creations which turned on them. I think the Time Lords by that time HAD become as bad as the Daleks, or maybe even far worse.
@@karimblix4378 the Dalek Degregarions were unintended creations of the Time Lords attempts to prevent the existence of the Dalek race. Every attempt to alter history resulted in alternate versions of daleks
Anyone else notice how at 0:39 David’s natural Scottish accent leaked through,
Crazy Weirdo Woah. Tennant even made “hell” sound good.
This is how I imagine the Could-have-been King and the Meanwhiles and Neverweres.
There's a time lord messenger at an outpost that is under attack by the daleks. He has an important message he needs to get out but the communications station is damaged. He has to get the message directly to the array to be able to send it out. He runs a gauntlet of carnage, falling over broken bodies before he finally makes it. He sends the message out and smiles to himself. There is suddenly a horrible rending noise and he is standing back at the communications station. The message hasn't been sent out. In a panic he runs the gauntlet again but this time where there wasn't one before a dalek crosses his path and exterminates him. He dies in agony. There is the sound of rending again and he's back at the communications station. He touches his shoulder. There's a dark red burn where the dalek shot him. But that didn't happen, did it?
He runs the gauntlet again. That new dalek is there again but this time there is a time lord soldier that shoots it dead. As it explodes the messenger takes some shrapnel to the face but he keeps moving. He makes it to the communications array and sends out the message. He hears that horrible rending again. It's louder this time. And he's back at his station. He feels his face, there is blood from where he took shrapnel. We see flashes as he runs the gauntlet over and over again accruing new wounds. A blow to his face, to his legs, to his arms. Sometimes he makes, sometimes he dies. Every time he dies he feels more confused and more angry. Rage fills him as he continues to run this futile gauntlet. Every time it ends in either victory or defeat he hears that horrible, terrible, deafening rending that sends him back to run all over again. Sometimes there is a new dalek in his way. Sometimes another soldier comes to his rescue. Sometimes the way is eerily silent. Sometimes the entire building explodes before he can make it a few yards. Every time he comes back, more wounded, the blows accumulated on his skin till it barely looks like flesh anymore. Every time it is a little harder to remember why. Why is he running? Why does this message need sending? What's the point?
The last time the rending nearly kills him. He wishes it would kill him. He doesn't want to go on. He's on the ground but the rage keeps his heart beating. He is so angry, but at what? Why is he angry? Slowly he pulls himself to his feet. We can't see his face but as he stands at the communications station there is someone in front of him. The time lord soldier turns around. In front of him is the messenger, the one told to run the gauntlet. He knows this man right? He was this man, wasn't he?
"Who are you?" asks the messenger. The one who had been through the gauntlet so many times puts his hand on the wall to steady himself. The hand is so covered in scars that it looks like scales, or stone, it doesn't look skin anymore.
"I..." the voice that comes out of his throat is choked but commanding. It doesn't sound a noise a normal person should be able to make. "I, I could have been." he says slowly.
The messenger gestures behind him. "What about them?"
The could-have-been messenger slowly turns to look behind him and sees dozens of people in varying states of decay, their faces unfocused. We can't see them clearly.
On seeing them he gives a little chuckle. "They're here for me. They never were." And faster than his laboured breathing and shaky body should allow he pulls his gun and shoots the messenger in front of him. He doesn't remember why the man was important but if he was important enough to remember he must be important enough to kill right? Right.
He hears the rending sound again. No, he doesn't like that. Doesn't want to leave. The air distorts but then it's gone. He is still standing at the communications station with a legion at his back.
Dude, that’s awesome and so perfectly Doctor Who! Got anything on the Skaro Degradations or the Horde of Travesties?
@@readsomebooks666 Sorta imagined the Skaro Degradations are daleks that have deserted their metal housings and basically become mind flayers. A bit like that dalek in Resolution. They take over hosts, planting pieces of themselves within which slowly consume the host till a new Degradation emerges full formed from the host's mind. The more they propagate like this the more alien they become to the actual daleks until they are hated and attacked by both sides.
@@readsomebooks666 Skaro degredation was already made canon in the Engines of War book, so you can find their wiki page
I fucking LOVE this concept
did moffat ever explain what happened to any of these things, when gallifrey returned it was fine, no billions of daleks or would have been kings or nightmare childs.
Well yes he did. The Doctors were allowed into the little "bubble" they called it due to the moment which was the end the time war button as it was sentient and posed as Rose/Bad Wolf. So only they can get in and out. The plan The Doctors had was to appear Gallifrey had been destroyed in the crossfire by The Daleks and The Time Lords. But instead at just the right moment they captured it into the pocket universe so it appeared to have been destroyed everything else in The Time War remained but what ended it was different
Jack Grant yeah but what happened to the nightmare child, the hordes of travesty etc?
bobadabob 88 I smell convenient Total bullshit plot device right there.....ain't galifrey Time locked? (nothing can get in or out) hmmm
Yes, but Gallifrey had a lot of horrors in it, the things the doctor described.
British Black LAD UK it was time locked. But it turned out that the time lock didn't condemn them to die. I think.
Holy shit, I just realized. Rassilon's plan is basically Evangelion.
Icy Cold Hands that’s so fucked up.
the end of evangelion wasn't about destroying time and space itself
But on an unimaginable scale.
The end and the beginning are one in the same.
Steven Moffat.... replaced this.... with his excuse of, "Oh no, Galifrey isn't gone! It's just in a pocket universe." This is so much better than the excuse he concocted. TIme Lords going nuts. Devolving into the villains instead of being the heroes. I wanted this, where it's almost like a post apocalyptic universe with no Time Lords to keep everything in order.
I started to think the exact same thing, tbh I would rather in day of the Doctor all three of them blew up gallifrey, and then stop the zygon invasion it would've been more better
Bringing back Galifrey in Day of the Doctor was Moffats greatest mistake in my opinion.What I also hate it how the events of End of Time have pretty much been reconed since 2013.
OJPArtist Exactly, when i saw it i was pumped and excited that galifrey was back but i thought about it was the wrong move
koolboy895 I think that even Moffat has since said he regrets bringing Galifrey back.
Oh really? Do you think there's a way to fix it?
0:21 everything the Doctor said here i want to see
Same 😂
God damnit I wanted to see this devolved version of the Time Lords more, whether in flashback or time travel. But noooooo, now we have this borderline retconned version. Bleh, such a waste.
and those were the good times lol
we wanted Moffat out
what have we done?
@@Ordoabchao-x9k Pfff, I still do. Both him and Chrisy boy are gobshite.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 you owe me quite a bill for the ocular cancer i contracted reading your comment, lord almighty what wrong with you anglos?
@@Ordoabchao-x9k Well, I certainly think that was a bit of a overreaction. Let me say that both of them are capable of creating some good quality writing but most of the time it was when they weren't show runner and under the watchful gaze of someone else. Give them the run of the town and they'll paint it red with a side of shit to go with it.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 what other way to start healthy debate than extreme dramatism?
I'm just having fun, don't sweat it :v
Loved this scene.
These mythical beings, powerfull beyond imagination, twisted by centuries of war (or an eternity, depending on your perspective), still veiled in secrecy and not knowing the extent of their power. Never saw the original series, so to me they were truly mythical. The apax of civilization and technology and their destruction the source of the Doctor's tragic persona.
But then we saw them. And we got a bunch of regular people that were conquered in a few days, albeit willingly. As with all myths that let your imagination run wild, seeing the result makes it so... ordinary. And disappointing.
I will say that I got super excited at the end of DOTD, with 11 starting his quest of finding Gallifrey. And the end of Heaven Sent was epic. But like I said, the result was disappointing. They are just another species now.
They are rebuilding in secret. Soon they will gather their fleets of war TARDISes and reclaim their place in the universe.
I totally agree. In Davies' run, the Time War and its participants were painted on this almost abstract level. I enjoyed Moffat's go at the Doctor, but was disappointed that what little of the Time War we got to see was just some Dalek saucers shooting at Gallifrey.
@@francisnicolas1819 Read this in another comment, but it's like trying to explain WWII to someone who never experienced it by showing them a film of some guys in a field somewhere shooting at each other. It doesn't really capture all of the suffering, the chaos, and death that ended in the first and thus far only use of nuclear weapons. They would watch the video thinking, "well this doesn't seem THAT bad", never understanding the true horror it was.
Weird how this side of the Time Lords wasn't shown in the 50th anniversary.
i feel like everything after this episode should be considered its own separate series, taking place in another parallel universe, like rick and morty can do.
Not possible. Time Lords are dead in other universes.
Jacob Wood Tell that to the writers lmao.
Canon can be subjective so
@@aussiegod4269 Yeah but in some cases not and it's bad to make all canon subjective.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 true. Still the direction that doctor who was taken post 10 would make some of it canon
Amazing how 10 describes the Time War as some crazy cosmic war yet in the Day of the Doctor it's basically just the London Blitz 🤔
As fun as day of the doctor was, it ruined the mystery of the time war. Honestly what made it so terrifying to viewers was the fact that we could only imagine how bad it actually was
@@Mo__Hamad I mean I really feel like the part of the war we SAW in the day of the doctor was incomparable to the rest of the war. I mean, the war raged on long enough for a young John Hurt doctor to look old and gray. Given it takes Matt smiths doctor hundreds of years just to age, I’d say in the TRUE length of the time war there is still a mystery of the greater horrors. In the day of the doctor, we were seeing the time lords at their weakest. Imagine what Skaro had to unleash on them to get the masters of time down to that.
@@Ditto-js1or I heard somewhere that the Time War lasted an eternity for both the Time Lords and the Daleks, probably because of time travel shenanigans.
The part shown in the Day of the Doctor was the LAST DAY of the war. All The Doctor listed could of been taken care of by then.
@@Jarock316 especially since Davros was taken out literally in the first year of the war
I hate how in the day of the doctor, the 10th doctor is completely fine with "saving gallifrey" in the 50th, but here at the end of his life/incarnation, he talks about all the abominations, about how gallifrey was basically hell.
But no he just has to move gallifrey into a pocket universe with the help of 12 other doctors and everythings ok.
Even though Gallifrey has been corrupted by years of war, it's still the Doctor's home planet, with millions of innocent people on it, of course the Doctor would try any other option to save the day without killing. Besides, the Doctor regretted destroying his home and everyone on it, so saving his world, failing to or not, he'll always take that option.
@@coachlombardi9657 The problem is that it wasn't an option. There was no solution that saved Gallifrey, without also saving the cthulu esque nightmares that the war created. Not until Moffat rewrote the script and just pretended that the war was a bunch of people with guns shooting each other and all you had to do to win was hide for long enough.
@@BadWolf739 You're right about it not being an option that time, but any other time, and the Doctor will try to save everyone.
The Emperor from Warhammer 40k is the Could-Have-Been King and the Chaos is the Army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres.
Headcannon Confirmed.
Nice
He would be a speck next to the horrors that fought in it they make chaos look cute.
Now that Russell T. Davis is coming back as the writer, let's hope he could do the same top notch writing for the Fifteenth Doctor (Yes. They confirmed that David Tennant is the Fourteenth Doctor). I know people say the writing has been bad since Series 11, but I still have high hopes for the series thanks to Davis.
Since series 11
@@callumocreary1253 Ah right thanks
He also has a history of bringing the show back from the brink, he brought it back after the movie did poorly in the states and made some controversial plot twists
Well this aged well...most of the fandom can't stand that he's back and more creatively liberated. I'm enjoying it fine, but the declining interest and ratings are hard to ignore, Davies hasn't been the answer, and Ncuti is useless.
Basically the Time Lords were willing to destroy the entire universe to escape the Dalek invasion of Gallifrey seen in the Day of the Doctor. The Doctor saw this as a horrific abdication of the responsibility the Time Lords had to all younger races, but since he couldn't defeat the Daleks either, his only viable answer at the time was to detonate the Moment and destroy both sides, ending the threat to the universe at the expense of Gallifrey's helpless civilian population.
Such a well written story to make the time lords the villains.
These episodes were the best
Man I miss this intensity and plot was awesome best doctor
For the ones that are curious how powerfull the nightmare child is at the end of the war they duplicated earth a thousand times and fired it at the nightmare child as bullets
WHO THE FUCK WISHES WE FOUND OUT ABOUT THE HORDE OF TRAVESTIES?!?!?
They need to do a movie or tv show showing everything that happened in the time war
+Mark Dorsi You could start with the War Doctor audio dramas
And the Skaro Degredations!
I always imagined a giant, sentient black nebula in the shape of a doll's head, with glowing white eyes and a mouth spewing star-sized tentacles of light, devouring entire solar systems
I always guessed it had to be some kind of transgenic or directly mutation-at-will creatures or something worse. It is the only way the word "Travesties" could be horrifying enough in Doctor Who to not be turned into a joke.
I think Moffat forgot to watch this episode when writing day of the dr.
From this description the Time War would sound like a conflict which even the Xeelee from Xeelee Sequence and Downstreamers of Manifold would be very much have the right to be concerned about. It sounds like a cosmic horror that is of SCP proportions.
Well, Xelee war with Photino Birds is something horrific that even Time Lords would be scarred fighting. Like most of Xelee sequence
@@NoName-hg6cc
Indeed Xeelee Sequence is a verse that is quite powerful. However in the Doctor Who Expanded Universe there maybe something which can rival even the mechanisms of the Xeelee. The Time Lords sure did create some potent superweapons like the Eye of Harmony and the Ultimate Sanction.
And there are beings like the Grace who are greater then the Time Lords and there is one device so powerful it may threaten the Xeelee Sequence cosmology. Known as the Glory a myterious machine of tremendous power and capabilities that goes high above a singular multiverse.
@@thorshammer7883 Of course, Time Lords are equals to the Xelee and perhaps the Photino Birds. But there are things, beside the Grace, that dwarf all three of them: the Monads
@@NoName-hg6cc
You said the opposite in your first comment you said the Xeelee are above the Time Lords not equals.
The Monads are impotent entities as far as I am concerned in the Xeelee verse. They don't do anything and them sleeping in Black Holes is quite average for the Xeelee. They not really impressive in retrospective.
And still what about the Glory?
@@thorshammer7883 No, you said Time War was something far above Xelee. I just said the war between Xelee and Photino Birds is so horrific even thr Time Lords wouldn't pass through it unscathed
What did Grace in Whoverse beside sleeping and existing, hardly feats to look at?
What about it?
This scene is why the Time War should never be shown on screen. How the hell are you supposed to show what's described in this without it being lackluster compared to your imagination.
"Even the Time Lords can't survive that!" I've always wondered whether the Doctor meant that literally or figuratively - did he mean that the Time Lords couldn't get out of that kind of nightmare alive, or that they couldn't face it without losing their sanity? Rassilon's solution suggests that it might be the latter...
You're telling me 10 survived skydiving through the glass ceiling but the 4th doctor died from the same thing
I just like to imagine that each new incarnation gets more resilient than the last. 1st was only 300 when his body wore out, whereas 11th lasted over a millennium. Besides, 4th had already lived a long enough life to wear his body down a bit while 10th was barely 3 years old, fresh off the platter.
@@elisnyder863 1 if you count his incarnation being reset
Couldn't Chibnall have made these monsters? No, because he couldn't be bothered to learn about Doctor Who's history.
I'm glad he didn't, he would butcher the monsters. Somethings are scarier when you cant see them.
“The could-have-been-King and his armies of meanwhiles and never-weres.” What a great name that is. Do we have any information on who that is and what they are?
A shame that this whole scene was totally ignored and retconned by Steven Moffat.
And then Chibnall did another retcon
A World Of Pure Imagination it still happened tho otherwise we wouldn’t have 11 the way we did. Basically this is based after day of the Doctor in this timeline The Doctor doesn’t remember saving the Time lords.
@Richie Fennah - In other words, a retcon. And an anticlimactic one at that. :/
What Day of the Doctor did, is ruined the illusion, what The End of Time gave.
So Rassilon and the Time Lord council are basically like Ilanthe and the Accelerators in Peter F. Hamilton's Void Trilogy. They only care about ascending to post-physical status and don't care if they have to obliterate the whole universe in the process.
*Time itself
We need a whole season of the show to explain the difference between this version of the time wars' end and the version we saw in day of the doctor, where it was just Time Lords vs Daleks. Also the difference between Rassilon's influence over the time lords here vs his appearance in Hell Bent, there's too much inconsistency to be left unresolved.
You weren't there in the final days of Doctor Who. You never saw what premiered. But if Chris Chibnall is showrunner, then everything's coming through. Not just the bad scripts but the end of all classic Who villains. Companions played by pieces of wood. The doctor using words like fam and robophobic. The leaving of Murray Gold. The series turned into hell. That's what BBC released to the earth. Hell is descending!
My kind of show!
@@isaachinds3736 Just listen! Because not even the Nuwho fans can survive that!
@@dwightk.schrute6743 We will view the final episode. The end of Doctor Who will come at Chibnall's hand. The fan theories will continue untill they rip the fanbase apart. We will become dependent on Big Finish productions alone. Free of Chibnall. Free of environmental messages and bad acting and the timeless child. While the canon itself ceases to be
You see now? That's what they were airing, in the final days of the show. I had to stop them.
@@trevorjamieson8892 Then take me with you, Chris Chibnall. Let me ascend into glory!
It's like bringing the afterlife Into the mortal world
Hallowed are the Ori.
I understood that reference. You get a geek point haha. That was great.
Oh shit a stargate reference. I never see these. Thanks for making my night!
You know a plan is crazy when the master calls it insane
“i had to stop them” see moffat?
Turns out Rassilon and Davros were not so different.
I just never accepted it. That trash bins with laser plungers were so powerful the oldest civilization in the universe had to create paradoxical fever dreams to fight them.
The Daleks are a lot more than that ...
They're not, they're a mutated race in extremely advanced tanks.
I mean those dalek battlesuits are extremely adaptable, shown many times. They're vulnerable to something, then, they adapt and no longer are.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 I was being slightly hyperbolic. However even within the realm of exaggeration, the Dalek are constantly presented as being universal level threats, and they're just.....tiny withered bodies in oddly shaped wheelchair tanks.
@@HotaruZoku Appearances can be deceiving.
@@HotaruZoku the daleks have created some of the most deadliest wmd ever conceived in the universe, such as the reality Bomb, and Temporal Cannons (devices that erased people from time and space, to the point no one (except the timelords) remembered they even existed). Give them time and resources, and they have the power to destroy every single thing that ever has or ever will exist in the omniverse
you know something is bad when the Master is scared
scenes like this make me wonder if moffat actually watched any episode from the RTD era at all before taking over the show lmao like how can you see this and then come up with the bullshit that happened in the 50th
Probably not.
He wrote quite a few of the RTD era episodes himself. Of course he watched some, if not all.
Lich Coin Considering how disjointed the Moffat era was from RTD I would say he either completely ignored it then.
@@aussiegod4269 Both RTD and Moffat were huge Classic Who fan boys. Their eras reflect how their nine year old selves viewed the Doctor. Unfortunately Moffat's view was of him as an unkillable hero whose always in control, never on the back foot, and always saves the day which nine times out of ten does not make for interesting stories.
They should have never bought Gallifrey back and left the Time War to our inaginations.
The actual War has never been shown except for the small scenes with the War Doctor which were frankly disappointing. I hope they keep it that way because no matter what it will be disappointing.
0:22-0:32 Would have loved to have seen those guys.
I would love to see some art comic of Master and Doctor playing together as the kids. Or just them walking close to each other in that mensioned academy
this is awesome and epic , how come he saved Gallifrey then if all those terrible things were happening?/it's kinda anticlimaxing now :/
he saved gallifrey bc moffat thought it was a good idea
Because Moffat doesn't like the idea of his childhood hero failing at something.
Every single one of those things was on the surface of Gallifrey when the Doctor "saved" it. They should have been saved to but instead we just quietly pretend they never existed.
What if the Could-Have-Been-King was Rassilon in a One-Winged-Angel form? What could have been when his plan succeeded?
The Daleks wanted to destroy reality leaving only Daleks.
The Time Lords wanted to destroy everything in existence.
And that’s why the doctor decided to use the moment to destory time lords and daleks because they had become worse then each other and doctor saw what was happening to them he didn’t want to do it
What's the name of the song that plays when the Doctor starts about the final days
I imagine the nightmare child as a massive baby head with tentacles devouring anything in its path. Let loose just beyond the planet to consume Dalek ships but with each ship it eats its hunger grows. Soon it found the ships no longer appetizing and turned instead to TimeLord cities. The Could Have Been King a TimeLord that has been infused with TARDIS energy allowing it to travel through time on its own, and in doing so creating armies of things that are not supposed to exist, monsters from rifts in the universe. The Skaro Degradation as abominations even the Dalek's despised but must contend with in order to survive the war. And yet thats the beauty of this scene you can imagine these monsters as anything.
Rassilon is the doctor who version of bleachs yhwach/juha bach.
I like that The Never-Were got a big role in one of The War Doctor’s audio drama. They truly the stuff of nightmares!
Rassilon sure has some screws loose
You know what would been a great thought? If BBC ever did it?
“The could have been king, with his army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres...”
The Time Lords of Galifrey, desperate to end the war. Broke the laws of time and space. Creating numerous paradox’s that consumed vast portions of space, cracking apart the fabric of reality to enter a new one.
A single envoy. Into a old place. A kingdom of stone, of swords and shields. Of valor, chivalry, sacrifice and magic.
As the Timelords entered the Kingdom of Albion, it’s fate changed forever.
In a land of myth, and a time of magic. The destiny of Albion and the galaxy rested on the shoulders of a young man. His name, is Merlin.
Hall of travistys sounds fun
I think it's Hord of Travesty.
boboss top shelf Horde*
Can we get an episode with the nightmare child a creation of Davaros that decided fuck the daleks fuck the time lords im on my side
(1:07) Rassilon's plan is similar to Seele's plan from Neon Genesis Evangelion.
And this is how hell looks like.
Me watching this in 2009: "Oh wow the Time War sounds like the scariest... and coolest thing ever! I can't wait to see it!"
2013 when The Day of The Doctor came out: "Biggest. Letdown. Ever!" -Comic Book Guy
The best doctor tho
goes to show you the level of the time lords since they had more things more destructive than even "the moment" which the military never used
I know it makes the Day Of The Doctor redundant but if The Time Lords were planning to rip the Time Vortex apart and might've still had that plan in operation even after Rassilon's departure in Hell Bent; maybe it's a good thing the Master nuked Gallifrey wiping out the Time Lords once and for all.
But what about all the innocent families who were in the way? Did they deserve to die as well
@@lochness5524 of course not, No. But if humanity has taught me anything. Innocents always get hurt or killed while others seek power and control... Time Lords are no different to that concept I think.
Creatures of consciousness does he means souls?
No, he means Great Old Ones.
They should make a spin off about the time war
So basically... The Time Lords wanted to become like the Eternals?
Who really is the nightmare child
I really want them to do something with it. It's always been the horror that's fascinated me the most. I wanna know what happened to it post Time War.
We don't even know what side it's on. Script notes said it was the Dalek Emperor's Nightmare Child, but the fact that in the first year of the War, it fought through an entire Dalek fleet (mind you standard Dalek saucers are planet busters) and just ate Davros' entire command ship, hints it may have been Time Lord weaponry.
Must have been terrifying.
Wings of Darkness Considering it was the first year I'd say Daleks but they lost control of it.
That's possible.
Some lovecraftian monster
Did this cause the cracks in time?
DarkSteal568
No that was an exploding Tardis, the time lords trapped in a separate pocket universe used those cracks to search for their original ie this one
1:10 kaasavan?
So like, if the Doctor saved Gallifrey in the last days of the war, shouldnt a bunch of these horrors have been on the planet and survived with it.
For that matter, if the Doctor saves Gallifrey in the last days of the war, wouldnt the Final Sanction then be given the go ahead?
I don't know what this is referencing, is it a classic who episode?
0:29 Omega.
Timothy Dalton was brilliant. A scene stealer in my opinion
any ideas on what the soundtrack is for the first bit?
Who is the lady in the end of time 2 ? Could she be doctor mother?
Who's the nightmare child
When to watch this episode I'm on season 4
Why not just ascend? Doesn’t sound like you have to destroy the universe to do that...
Probably requires vast amounts of energy that would consume this universe.. so the Doctor was against it. Just a guess..
The plan hinges on blowing up time itself. Hard to do that without also screwing over all the temporal normies.
What was the nightmare child
Jacob Wood A mutant developed by the Daleks.
This line was actually good. He destroyed Gallifrey for a reason. The day of the Doctor ruined it all. It's one of the big failures of this show. When I began to watch this I thought that omnipotent ,,bad wolf" was the problem. It's nothing compared to this betrayal. I consider this as the true ending of Gallifrey arc.
They were planning to sacrifice the Universe? Why?
To prevent themselves from becoming extinct
@@mattg8600 By sacrificing the Universe!? Great plan.😒
Stephen Byrne Well yeah obviously it’s insane to kill all of creation and every other race in order to save only themselves, but it shows how much alike they become to the daleks who tried the exact same thing in Journeys end.
@@mattg8600 Great observation, never noticed the parallel between this and Journeys end.
these guys can create universes so sacrificing one doesn't seem like much a big deal for them.