If you dont raid mythic and mostly play m+, your only way to upgrade is crafting and vault. Feels reeeeealy bad to have 2-3 weeks nothing good in vault. like the idea to upgrade to myth track
Yeah i had to quit, it was barley doable in dragonflight you still missed out on the op trinkets but but its not reasonable now, if you have to mythic raid to have some fun and run some Wow mythic dungeons at a remotley "competitive" level the game is not for me have fun
Yeh they are so disconnected from that. If we go back to legion even by just doing keys you could get decent amount of myth track equivalent titanforged gear and maybe doing heroics for titanforged set pieces. Now you just wait for a single vault item, even filling more than one slot is misery, only thing that is better is just the fact that you can convert normal items into set pieces otherwise its nearly like getting that chest as in the past. Like gearing through keys is like slowest it have ever been. And for raiders its like the opposite they are getting rained by loot more than ever deterministic loot that suck all the fun. Only way to really gear by doing just keys is dealing with garbage crafting and its already nearly impossible to play the game without buying wow tokens, plus cba dealing with most garbage systems blizzard ever made. If i do keys i just want to be able to gear up by just doing keys same as pvp players that aren't forced to raid or do m+ as before.
Gearing is fun when playing WoW is your job. For those people that have 9-5 jobs and similar cases and only have a few hours a day, it definitely is NOT fun, especially when vault RNG doesn't even "reward" you an upgrade.
I have a 9-5 job and I am 637 item level. It takes me less than an hour to clear 4/8 every week (our record is sub 30 minutes run). The mythic + slots of the vault just fill themselves up as I play the game during the week. I probably have to do maybe 2 +10 homework keys to fill all the slots. But yes, it takes less energy to whine about how everything is super hard and how keys above +12 are for sweatlords only instead of finding a community of like minded people to clear 2 to 4 mythic bosses each week. Yes, I won't get the 639 spymasters, but I can get pretty much everything else and me not having it probably is not the reason I will deplete my next key.
@@nickandreyev766 Why not have a dinar or bullion slot or two per season so you can get the spymasters and actually push as high as your skill allows? Some people don't enjoy mythic raiding period but want to play m+ at a high level, i don't want to do 4/8. Or why not have gear that scales to max ilvl in only m+ that you can get from +12's so raid enjoyers don't "have" to get them?
@@ssv-y2q ok, so first of all I do not enjoy raiding either and I'd prefer not having to do it at all. But then again, you can not refuse to participate in some kind of activity but expect to be rewarded the same stuff as people that participate in it. The reality is and always has been that the more time and effort you put into the game, the more gear you get. Now it is for you to decide how much time you are ready to spend on it, I think spending 40 minutes a week on something I don't like to do in the game is alright to get the upgrades for something that I do like to do. And that "oh I wish I could just buy pre calculated bis gear from a vendor and push as high as my skill allows" is a myth. No amount of spymasters can salvage your (or mine for that matter) average soon-to-be-depleted key.
I absolutely want an M+ solo queue, where you can choose between queueing for rating increases or queueing specific dungeons to target a piece of gear. Some people might hate this, but a more radical idea that I'd enjoy would be transforming M+ into a kind of Street Fighter/League of Legends ranked system, where you can both gain and lose rating. It would be fun to try to become the best player possible and aim for Platinum or DIamond or Master Rank by the end of the season, each with its own special rewards.
Problem is theres a huge shortage of tanks and healers, so the solo queue will be all the off meta dps who dont get invited currently, sitting in a queue by themselves with no tanks and a few healers
Everyone at 21:09 is so objectively wrong. This is the slowest gearing has ever been for people who M+. We get 1 myth item per week and have to upgrade 5 times for every piece.
Agreed, mythic track gear 1/6 feels basically the exact same as heroic 4/6 gear due to how many crests you need to farm to actually upgrade mythic track loot. Seeing that i needed 100+ dungeons to max out my gear just made me stop playing after i got my portals
Only really accurate if you've only played the last two expansions. They even mentioned how the vault used to just be a chest and you'd get one item from it, and until dragonflight you couldn't even get items at the highest ilvl if you only did M+. So sure, it's the slowest it's ever been, if you only include patches where it's been faster.
@@the0new0revolution the old chest was worse than the vault because it only gave you one option, but it was not slower - you get 1 item per week either way. What makes this season slower is that you need to get that 1 item per week AND then grind 6.25 dungeons worth of crests as well. This season is also the slowest version of the new gearing system, so their original comment in the video is still completely off base regardless.
That one guy comment incoming but respectfully really think the perspective of gearing for people with Mythic raid access is the least representative of the retail playerbase by miles. It's absolutely the smallest % participation/completion activity there is and gearing that involves it is not what most have access to. I play m+ mostly and easier raids and get upgrades from vault and crafts for characters often. I effectively can only get myth track from vault or 636 crafted, otherwise it might as well be inaccessible to me. I overall have enjoyed the "pace" with minor nitpicks, don't need full determinism but maybe slightly increased access proportionally to people who can mythic raid as someone who enjoys m+ but also basically only can m+.
The fact that in order to really push M+ you need to be a mythic raider is starting to become a serious problem. I don't know what the solution would be but I'm almost in favor of each pillar having a separate gear track. Say Mythic raiding drops crests and you can upgrade an item with crests, M+ drops valor and you can upgrade the same item with valor as well, do the same for delves, pvp and open world each with their own currency and the bonuses from these only become active in content if you have up graded them with the correct currency. Thats probably to convoluted but in a way it would be funny to see solo open world players clearing world quests faster than Mythic raiders...
@@derangedhermit7981 we had the solution in S4, just give us a vendor that´ll sell some bis item every 2 weeks and it´s much less frustrating for everybody.
Vault change: Being able to lock a slot if you already have the max ilvl of the content the vault give you. Example: You got a myth bracer, be able to lock bracers from appearing in the vault. It doesn't allow early patch cheese ways to get what you want, but it allows you to have more chances on items you need on the long run. Maybe rings or trinkets would require 2 to lock. DUnno :P
"The moment I have to start practicing Dungeons, it becomes un-fun to me" - Tettles. So that what does he think raid progression is? or what he does in Dungeons on Alpha and Beta?
My problem is that the gap between an upgraded hero track piece and myth track piece is too big now that they are both 6/6 upgrade paths and feels bad it also even feels wrong to use gilded crests to upgrade a Hero track so really Hero track is 619 vs 639 which is a massive difference in player power for endlessly scaling content like M+ and there isn't even a crest discount above 619 for alts unless you are a fully 639 mythic raider. I think the biggest miss is they screwed up the curve of gearing and M+ difficulty in that there almost isn't one it's basically flat and then you hit a brick wall.
You never upgrade a Hero track piece until you get a Myth track. Use the gilded crests on the myth track piece and then get the gilded reduction on Hero.
Increase end of dungeon crests and cap weekly. Implement bag slots in the vault interface where you can put one or two items that rolled for you that week that you never want to see again. Will make the vault more and more deterministic as season progresses
Weekly cap is fine. But double all acquisitions. So you get to cap faster each week or more importantly you actually have a chance of catching up if you don’t cap each week.
DF S4 was by far the best gearing. Being able to choose is what made it so much fun but also knowing that if you put in the work you got the item or upgrade, that made it so that every dungeon I ran I got a bit of dopamine vs a larger hit when a mythic track item drops from the vault. The other thing I noticed was when I got a bis item to level cap I sat back and felt satisfied like I do after a hard days work which is something thats missing from the vault. The vault is an either fuck this or finally. I know I said before there was dopamine being released during the vault but I kind of wonder if there is, if I examine how I feel its less excitement and more of a finally that RNG grind is over hopefully I get the next item next week. But its also probably why I don't gamble. I don't feel excitement at wining, just a bit of relief instead.
yea, as goated as S3 is, i think S4 i´ve had the most fun in wow probably ever. Finally just enjoying the gameplay without all the useless hops and rings to go through. I much rather have consistent enjoyment rather than a dopamine spike ever so often between a valley of despair and sadness.
Hell yeah, being able to have the trinkets without being in one of the freaking 180 guilds who kill the end boss even somewhat remotely early and being one of the people that get its, and it dropping early, and multiple times was amazing. I could probably join a top 500 guild and eventually get it but i just don't want to id rather not play
The mental gymnastics to avoid admitting that M+ solo queue is the solution are astounding, especially since it’s been the industry standard in competitive games for over a decade. 1 ladder for solo/duo players 1 ladder for groups of 3+ players The current key system is outdated and wastes everyone’s time. Just implement a ranking system like every other competitive game in existence: your score rises or falls based on wins and losses. Let Blizzard handle edge cases like lust, battle res, and other details-they clearly have the resources to make it work. No one else should control whether you get to play the game. You should be able to log in on any class or spec, press "Play," wait a bit, and dive in. Until that happens, M+ will continue to decline. Winning or losing doesn’t matter; at least I’d be playing the actual computer game, in combat, the way I want, on the class and spec I enjoy, when I want to play. Stop overcomplicating why this wouldn’t work, let them work out the nuances because it's their literal job to do so-it’s time for change.
Would you just queue and get a RANDOM dungeon? What level would you get? Who has the key you are doing? If you still have to risk your key for it, why wouldnt you just handpick your group via the premade system?
@@robertkovacs426 The billion dollar company who employs entire teams of people to design computer games for a living should figure that part out. I can think of a hundred ways off the top of my head to answer all of those questions to make the system work, but it’s up to blizzard to design it.
Cause pvp solo que where dps have que time up to 30 mins is what we want, and in that we don't even need a tank just a healer, are dps player gonna wait like 1 hour for each que? Your entire point of the way you want, on what u want and when you want goes away so fast if que is added. Should we lose rating when we depletes a key? like in all of those competitive games? Imagine now deplete key but instead you lose like 20 ratings cause one of your dps didn't kick. Should you get punished if you leave a key unless we do a surrender thing? I don't mind solo que being added but if you think current system is toxic and bad etc. Imagine if you lose like 30 ratings when key gets depleted and it's due to your team unfortu didnt get an Aug and got an arms warrior instead
1) Solo que into m+ 2) Get into grim batol with prot paladin, disc priest, hunter, paladin and rogue 3) Leave the key, because it is not doable without decurse 4) Repeat for stone vault 5) Get banned for a week for too much leaves I mean I understand if you never go past a +8 where you can basically drool on your keyboard and ++ the key, it's not a problem, but current m+ and solo que are incompatible at fundamental level
On my pally who has a grand total of one mythic item I've gone 4 weeks with bad vaults despite filling with 3 mythic slots. All poorly itemized necks rings and C or worse trinkets. I really hate the RNG, we need some form of determinism.
"Nah bro just join a guild bro" "Just spend 8 hours a week mythic raid bro, no free loot for you bro" And i even used to be a highest difficulty raider
I personally think the easiest fix for this is that your vault can only have items from the dungeons you did that week in it so if you really want a specific trinket, you can just do that dungeon eight times and fill your goal if you wanna do it
@@silvestre93ify I’m going on week 3 with no mythic upgrades. I’ve only gotten items my healer spec uses but I don’t heal I dps. Actually communicate and gain perspective 🤡
I don't mythic raid and my vaults for the last 5 weeks have been some combination of weapons and shields (already crafted), and the single myth track slot I've already had for a month (chest). Some of these have been the exact same pieces that have been in my vaults previous weeks. I don't understand why there's no protection against repeats in particular, like maybe if you don't take that slot and equip it but like why is the exact same item in the same slot at the same item level allowed to appear over and over, it's so frustrating.
M+ is less fun, mostly due to gear being slower and harder to get( Yes i know mythic raiders like yummytv loves it because they can get more fun from getting gear longer) but for the only m+ players its worse, along with the new system for kicks being ass for pugs(Yes i know, "just join liquid bro" "Get good bro" "No free gear for you bro" "Just have friends available at all times bro" ) tanks having less ability for the tank to carry more is worse for the average m+ only. Yes i know if you don't want to mythic raid and do high keys the game is not your game, which i find to be a shame
As someone fighting for my life in +12s and i only have 4 pieces of mythic gear plus two 636 crafted items, this podcast is becoming more and more out of touch of my experience and unrelatable to the way i play wow.
@MarkElf2204 yeah I'm not as good as players who participate in MDI and are pushing 0.1% Title keys, but statistically neither are you. Who hurt you to provoke you to say something mean to a stranger on the Internet?
@@MarkElf2204 Bro all timed 11s put you in the top 2% of the m+ ladder, so about in the top 1% of players. That's not being bad. You need to be really good at the game to time 12s, especially as a tank.
@@MrDoctorDave makes you realise how out of touch most of these people are inside their own little eco chamber. completely ignoring the fact that noone will care about their achievements if m+ completely dies out. because that's what happens when the content doesn't draw in new players.
Hot Take: The Catalyst should have two charges, one that is exactly the same as it is now - you can convert 1 piece of gear to tier every other week, etc. and on the other weeks you should get a charge that will enable you to convert a fully-upgraded piece of gear to the next track. So those who only do M+ have a path to max Ilvl. So one week you can change a piece of gear to tier and the other week you can convert a piece from heroic to mythic track. Give people and alts a way to catch up. As an M+ only player (due to varying IRL schedule) I've given up playing this season because of how terrible gearing is. Instead of playing an alt or pushing keys I'm just going to go play other games. At this point my interest to even come back is not there unless they actually make real changes.
Yumy doesnt see the bad side of things cause everything just magically works out for him. Just to put into perspective i already ran almost 30 arakara dungeons +7-10 range and still dont have a sacbrood. These things do happen all the time but people dont see it. There needs to be some bad luck protection for sure cause 30 runs is already enough to make some people quit.
I’d be fine with a three strikes deplete. Put three gemstones on the key, whenever it depletes one of the gems breaks, and if all 3 break without timing the key it depletes a level. Lets people run keys without needing to constantly reprog, but also prevent total brute forcing.
I paused my sub til 11.1. This patch cycle was so fast, which is fine. But at the moment there's is nothing to do, which interests me. But i prefer this, because i have time to play other stuff without "wow-work" to do. This way i look forward to 11.1. a lot more.
Possible solution for the Crest system. DF s4: Awakened 1/12 So every item for the season starts at 1/12. There's only 1 crest or currency to upgrade everything with. M0, 2, 3 / LFR: 1/12 - 3/12 M+4, 5, 6 / N: 4/12 - 6/12 M+7, 8, 9 / H: 7/12 - 9/12 M+10 / M: 10/12 - 12/12 That way, as people through the season, they have milestones. Getting a full normal clear or 2k io could make all upgrades of sub 6/12 gear free Getting to AotC or 2.5k io could make all upgrades of gear sub 9/12 free
this legit would be really nice. the current gearing system is waaaaaaay too complicated imo (coming from a guy that has played off and on since vanilla). why are there so many different currencies and tracks? consolidate the explorer/adventurer/veteran tracks into one and have that gear drop form normal/heroic dungeons/world stuff. current gearing is confusing for new and returning players. maybe i'm just dumb, or i didn't read a key quests explanation of the system, but i had to do research on the world wide web in order to figure out how i should be using these gearing systems. and going outside of your game to figure out something that should be straight forward is very bad design.
I had a similar idea, drop crests and just use stone each key level drops a set amount of stones the higher the key the more stones. Also the higher the key the higher the item level that drops. So you could get a bis from a +2 but would cost you a lot to get it to max or if it drops from a 10 it’s costs less. Means the people who are 619 or sub 8, then they still can work to upgrade gear.
This is such a genius idea but I'd make one change, make every item drop at 1/12, but you get the currency to upgrade it at those different break points. Otherwise I feel like there wouldn't be enough incentive to get people into the higher keys and m raid, but 1 million % yes please just make gear 1 track. Imagine doing a +3 key and getting sacbrood and actually feeling good about it because you can upgrade it to max eventually instead of currently where your first thought is "nice, but I wish it was myth track"
M+ is not league of legends. I find it frustrating when people who will never encounter the punishments or issues with the system claim “its working” or suggest alternatives that will make it more toxic. IO depletion will only make the top end feel better about themselves and make the existing problems 1000x worse
I'm so sick of these elitist loud voice full time streamers who the devs are fans of f em, bro we wanna play the game and have fun. And i even used to be a top 2-3xx guild player
Tettles saying "Well in m+ you reach your level" is so disrepsectfull, yeah i wanna reach my level but not be held back by something that's not my level and have to work a second job to do some World of Warcraft Mythic Dunegons its so wild screw that guy. Yes i know if that's what it is the game is not for you so yeah i quit, I don't even mind gear being from +10 but that along with so many other changes made the game miserable from tank agency, crests ect
yea, that is just insane. Especially as in all those games everyone has the exact same gear and it´s all about skill. In wow you can have all the skill you want if you have less time or missed the first few vaults and you´re way behind now. Even in week one you had the people full hero clearing doing 10s in 615+ilvl with tiersets active, and then you had people going in with some delve gear and ilvl 605-10 trying to do the same. That´s just two different games at this point.
Nathria was the last time healing felt sustainable, ever since then I have had to continually focus more and more on instantly pushing healbars up instead of planning which order to use things in to make it to the end. I wish they would go back to the older style but I know they wont so I have been exploring hobbies outside of wow instead of playing when I am not raiding
League has a good thing. Clash tickets. What if once a month, the lowest played specs of each role gets a special keystone from the vendor. And can choose to push it. Then at the end of Sunday, the highest lvl of that key, maybe a % of them, get a special in-game reward. It could be even more, maybe the players participated in those get a little something for helping them. This would help lower played specs such as h priest, or survival hunters to be invited more or get keys more during that week or weekend. They could do so much, like put a statue in the main hub of who had the highest key for that month. Could be a great achievement
vault should be supplemental NOT REQUIRED. all items you want for gearing your toon should be available to grind out the drops from m+ or raid. 12+'s should drop myth gear.. CHANGE MY MIND
Literally this. No reason an average Joe can go 4/8M and have 5 chances at Myth gear every week. But I can push 8 12's a week and I only get 1 chance at Myth every week. Give me either end of dungeon Myth or something that let's me convert hero track to Myth track gear
"But bro, max said he does not want to "HAVE" to farm +12's for the race bro" "You gotta think about the race bro its a huge marketing opportunity for blizzards game World of Warcraft"
This so muchhh Give me a way to farm the gear foreverrrr Right now I’m getting in to 10s and one I did my 8 tens for 3 myth track vaults I just logged out for the rest of the week I found it really hard to be motivated to keep the grind on because I had to wait for my vault for the best chance at loot. I’m 624 right now and yes I could try to farm 8s for crests and flight stones to get all my gear higher but I’m able to do 10s and 8s aren’t that difficult for me anymore… So I went over to another toon and started to try and make some gold but I was not enjoying it nearly as much as mashing my face on the keyboard in M+ dungeons
I don't think key depletion matters as much as ya'll are saying. People are trying hard and failing which makes people toxic. They are trying hard because it takes so long to get a group together (30-45+ min) only to fail and waste your time. Groups take so long to form because there it a massive shortage of tanks. Tanks aren't playing or pugging M+ because blizzard gutted the role to make it awful and unfun to play. If blizz wants to fix M+, they can either revert the tank buffs or maybe they can tank their dungeons themselves because players aren't doing it.
removing myth track from m+ just means a majority of people will cap out around 626+ what ever craft items they can be bothered to farm. its def a huge killer for ppl. mythic raiding being 20 man is also a content killer cause its outdated to require 20 ppl for end game content. bring back myth track dropping, and do something like opening up flex raiding 10-20man after world first or hall of fame fills up. attached titles or xmog or mounts to those that can complete at 20 man mythic raiding or something. pretty sure most every other game doesnt require 20 ppl anymore cause the gaming sphere changed from getting that many ppl together.
What do you guys mean when you say the crest grind was longer previously? Because it is 100% longer than any season in DF. Even with a 25% crest discount it will still be longer than DF.
They are fully bised out, the get the first op trinket that drops and all mythic track items because the are streamers or high in the social hierarchy.
@@Gaius_Sinstone then how are they measuring it? SL i vaguely remember being fully geared if you mythic raiding relatively early but that was also a long time ago and on a completely different gearing system.
1:00:00 in... You guys need to consider the M+ depletion question from the POV of someone that doesn't play WoW for a living. thue-wed-thurs are raiding days. the little time I have before raid is used for the various weekly chore we have to do this tier, possibly on multiple character since my guild need a Brewmaster for queen, BDK for brood, and why would you tank on anything other than Ppal in M+? There's no reason whatsoever for key depletion in low keys or high keys. Us who don't play WoW for a living ( and god help you if you have an actual RL job / family to tend to) don't have time to waste doing 3 hours of homework keys everytime you deplete a 16 SV in the first 2 minute. There's not enough hours in the day to waste redoing a 15 mist for the 25th time and before someone meme about "" dad with 3 job and 12 kids"" ... I got multiple hall of fame with my schedule, because I can spend that time progressing in raid... not doing homework keys. You are worried that without the "privilege" of being the key holder, you won't get to run keys are a non-meta class? Who the heck do you think is pushing M+ on non-meta class right now? Squishvegan or Mordrim aren't pugging! Remove depletion and maybe we'll invite something other than meta because the punishment for not following Yoda exact comp and exact talent setup and exact route isn't so severe. You are worried that without depletion someone who got a lucky +2 on a easy key will terrorize the LFG queue? Well bud you choosed to queue up for a key whose leader in 250 IO below what you'd expect... but guess what? maybe he's a diamond in the rough. Maybe it'll take you a few try to time that key. Maybe you'll make a friend. Honestly, keeping depletion in might be your worst ever take.
Always nice to have these topics come up for us to realize these community voices aren’t as smart as we are led to think they are. These people who play wow for a living or major content creators don’t consider time a motivational factor or an important resource. “If keys don’t deplete there are no stakes and stakes are what make it fun” paraphrasing Quazii. The idea that time and effort are not “stakes” is the big dividing issue. These guys don’t understand the concept of that value so they can’t comprehend casual player behavior. Just for the record I’m a former CE raider that does key sales as all three roles. And I’m telling you please put me out of business. I’m zealous to the point of valuing effort that keys should always go up for completion only score is timer related. Absolutely eviscerate all these bogus arguments and let players play the way they want to and define their own ideas of success instead of defining it for them with this awful and abusive system that serves no one expect the no lifers.
I agree with so much you said, and i am on the team no depletion either. There is one thing tho that i am afraid of happening with no depletion and it is, that the meta will probably turn into mdi pulls and if they fail redo the key, so basically spam a low % chance pull on er and over again until it works. I am aware that this will not be necessary in the majority of Keys but we as a community are meta whores so this will trickle down to lower keys as will, and this degenerate gameplay would suck.
@@horaculus9190 but how is this different from pulling a quadruple pack at the beginning of SV? or the old double scarab pull in city? or everything to first mini in ara-kara? or the quadruple pull in necrotic? The top pusher already do those MDI-esque pull because they need to. the lower push won't spend 1 hour trying to figure out a pull on a key where timer isn't the issue. This nonsensical fear come from MDI player who have 6 hour to spend trying to make 1 pull work on a tournament realm.
@@horaculus9190 but why would they do this? Just because someone can do something or a change allows them freedom to do something doesn’t mean it will lead to massive change in behavior. I’ll give you a bit of history here. Back in legion you used to be able to swap trinkets in mythic plus. The very top MDI players used OPie to rolodex through several different trinkets throughout a dungeon. Do you know how many players even bothered to do this? Almost no one. Most key pushes just swapped a defensive trinket in for certain one shots and that’s about it. Most players do the least they have to do get the reward they want. This idea that everyone will start doing even crazier pulls than are needed for keys and waste more time is rooted in a complete lack of understanding regarding player behavior.
I do 16x 10s every week to max vaults on two co-mains. My primary goals are to keep getting better at tanking, and to build my contact list of friends to push higher keys.
@@ssv-y2q Good questions I guess. I like feeling challenged, and the sense of accomplishment that comes with doing something challenging. So I would be against making it too easy because then what's the point?
I mean, 10s were hard at first, but once gilded became available from 8s, and we could upgrade to 626... 10s feel pretty automatic now. Timed 4 in a row last night to help friend get her portals.
@@joveonlightbringer9684 I don't think 10's are too hard, but only getting 1 rng pice per week sucks imo, if you care about getting full bis you need to be a mythic raider
@@ssv-y2q I understand; I have some weeks with bad vaults. But if all my friends go on break once they get all their gear, why do I want them to get it all even faster? My own approach is to fill vault so I get 3x M choices every week, and I get upgrades more often than not. On the bad weeks, I console myself with crafted upgrades. We need a system that keeps us busy till next patch, OR we need to accept that there will be dead periods (lulls) in the 2nd half of every season.
01:02:00 Lol How does growl think that depletion helps the non-meta classes? It way more impactful to meta classes that no one wants to chance any IO key on non-meta classes if they aren't the keyholder because the penalty for failing is depletion. How can you not see this? What a bad take. Also if someone gets a 14 Grim off a 12 Mists, they have every right to be in that key. Is isn't getting their foot in the door. That is how the meta classes got there too typically. They likely will fail it list most people when getting a 14 off of a 12 their first time.
They try to make their narrative appear rights to feed their egos with non-sense. Depletion being so common and so more punishing now is the actual reason behind that meta chasing. And nobody is going to start doing some mdi pulls in mid ranges either spending hundreds of gold for repairs and consumables.
That whole spiel was so backwards. Not depleting would make the risk of bringing non meta specs to the keys down. Not sure how he even got to the opposite idea.
An idea for key depletions, as a small fix: you should always be able to reroll your key at the end. Regardless of whether you time it or not and regardless of whether the key is higher or lower than your key.
“Where you actually don’t get an upgrade (in the vault) weeks 4, 5, 6. I feel like everybody kind of runs into that issue.” - Tettles. Is he actually incapable of relating to people that aren’t top 0.1-1% mythic plus players, or does he think those are the only people that listen to this podcast?
On the Patch 11.0.7 PTR, hotfixes have been pushed with average 35% buffs the upcoming ring, Cyrce's Circlet. - Thunderlord's Crackling Citrine damage increased by 20% - Squall Sailor's Citrine damage increased by 43% - Undersea Overseer's Citrine damage increased by 44% - Storm Sewer's Citrine shield increased by 20% - Old Salt's Bardic Citrine healing increased by 43% - Mariner's Hallowed Citrine healing increased by 44%
1:03:00 I agree that depletion gives power to key holders, and thus can allow non-meta specs to have a chance to be a part of a key, but I think overall no-depletion will reduce the reliance on meta comps because people wont need to be as strict on who they invite. If someone has a high io non-meta class signup to their key, they'd be wayyyyyyy more likely to give them a chance than now. Sure, they could AFK in dornogal for another 10minutes waiting for that perfect spec, or they could just be in the dungeon playing the game instead and kick the non-meta guy if its just not working out and relist. The single worst thing about the pug m+ scene is that there are literally 2-4 specs per season that you can play if you want to get invited to keys (enhance/dk this season). I actually played more m+ on beta than I have on live, because no-depletion was so fking amazing for pugging. Glad I did, because live is terrible.
I'm a healer main that has played every season of M+ since BFA launched. I've never had trouble going into Keystone Hero and beyond, even on non-meta specs. This is the first time in 7 years I've hit a hard wall, due to the design decisions surrounding this season. I'm playing the meta healer, Resto Shaman, so I'd hate to see what it's like for other specs. I've done all the +11s and am 2700+ rating, but I am NOT ALLOWED into groups doing 12s because of two main reasons; The limit on gear level you can get from M+ means Myth track gear from the Vault is the only way to progress, meaning people with older characters are going to have a higher item level and look more attractive in the group finder, instead of better players who complete higher content and get commensurate rewards. Higher item level is a sign of character seniority, not ability to clear hard content. This makes it nearly impossible to play alts in the "alt friendly" expansion. This design where tanks can randomly fall over dead like paper combined with the disproportionately punishing death timer penalties means that people leave groups at the drop of a hat, so they're even more incentivized than ever to go for overkill in the group finder. 2700 is about the right time to start tackling 12s, but people organizing 12s can just fill their group with 2900 or 3000 players. This limits the upward mobility of new players and alts, kills peoples' interest in M+, and the entire ecosystem collapses -- hence the pitiful player counts for an expansion launch patch. It's frustrating in so many ways and a straight downgrade from the perfectly good way things have worked in numerous previous seasons.
I love the Shred guy, being anxious about healing Ara-Kara 3. Meanwhile, here I am, tanking GB 14, wiping on the second pull, "ggs, nt" go next, this time wiping on the 5th pull etc. etc. till I time the dungeon with some random pug.
I feel like a good middle ground for key depletion that fixes both the "getting your key downgraded" and "running a key endlessly until every pull is perfect" would be to give keys CDs. Once you slot the key in and click start, it puts your keystone on cooldown (1hr, 2hr, etc). Then, the cooldown is removed once you complete a dungeon. So even if the key isn't perfect, you are still incentivized to finish, because only by finishing, are you able to go again for that key and that level.
Break the meta is so stupid, because people just run the A tier specs instead of the S tier, it should've never been anything higher beyond the bottom of stuff, worst 2-3 healers, worst 2 tanks, worst 8 or so dps specs
"the vault is not bad", no, the vault is not bad if you fill all valuable slots, with max itm lvl, every week, and you can still roll 6 belts, a targeting system for items, or like tettles said, the ability to ugrade to myth track with tokens. also maybe unpouilar opinion, but the vault being rng is stuid: imagine raying the rng gods all week for an item to dro from m+ and maybe you got unlucky and it never drops, you think "i cant wait for all the effort/work i ut in all week to be rewarded with more rng with the vault", vault should be a reward for the things you've done during the week in game, where is the roblem to give the ability to target an item? make a currency like the catalyst and every 2 week you can target 1 item.
yeah the vault rng is excessive. the gearing in ff14 might be boring, but at least i know for a 100% fact that i'll be full bis after doing the raid 8 times. they use a token system in that game, so when you clear a boss they give you a book on a weekly basis and those books can be traded for raid gear. also a little side tangent, but why can't we be bis, or close to it, a couple months into a patch in wow? i'd love to play alts in wow, but it's extremely hard to do that without no life-ing the game. the gatekeepy nature people have in regards to gear in wow is ridiculous. i know it goes against wows fundamental design (which has always been gear centric), but wouldn't having the gear "early" allow people to have fun faster? wow is already a seasonal game so why not accelerate the timeline a bit for us normies?
As someone who only has time for like 4-5 keys a week a way to pick my keystone either from vault which dungeon I want or the end of dungeon re-roll should be my choice. I basically run mists every week to reroll my key in hopes it's a dungeon I need and if not week is basically over
My idea would be to give every player a Mythic Key item at the start of the season that stores your current M+ progress. If you want to unlock a level 6 Mythic dungeon, you need to first complete it on level 5. This sounds like it would be more grinding, but it would allow you to run the same key level as many times as you want until you’ve completed it for the day. At the end of the week, you take your key to a special M+ NPC and instead of getting a Vault reward, your key has points recorded on it and you use those points to purchase an item from any of the dungeons you’ve completed. If you only did +8 Ara Kara that week, you could only buy an Ara Kara item equivalent in ilvl to what the vault would give you for completing an 8.
just remove key depletion. We have a NPC to lower keys now if you want to do that... there's no reason to lock up group for 40 minute in a dungeon just to not deplete a key.
@@vincenthamel3420 exactly that. leave it in the player's hands to take the key down if they want. personally i'd love the option to bang my head against a 12 or whatever
With the vault, something that would help players who do not mythic raid would be either the ability to de-select slots they no longer need myth track gear for, or a system that automatically scans your equipment for what slots you have myth track gear in already.
Here is my 2cents •Myth Track in vault at +9 •15 crests on timing •10 crests on deplete •Crest reduction at iLvl equal to crafted •Crafts cost 75 crests •add 5 min to the timers, if you complete within the new 5min window, your key stays same level •Portals to 12 •Trinkets removed from Vault, trinkets purchasable with vault tokens Maybe implement a way that you can separate a key into a "completion" and a timing key. Completion key cant go up or down, you only get 10 crests.
One of my biggest problems with M+ is the pain points for me are usually in specific parts of the dungeon that dont happen until 15-30 minutes into the dungeon. I wish there was some way I could practice specific spots of the dungeon without having to trudge through the slog just to see if I can improve this time or not. A small cook, what if they divided every dungeon into wings that started with the death of each boss, then made those wings into delves where the difficulty is tied to whatever the M+ difficulty is for the dungeon. That way of you're struggling with a boss or pull you can practice that pull with a team
I think there's not enough said about the actual items that drop in the vault because it seems like there's a pretty high chance for trinkets and the very rare pieces. It's still random, but there's definitely weighting in our favor.
@@ssv-y2q Seems pretty apparent just watching a variety of vault discord channels where people post every week what they get. You see a disproportionate number of VR items and trinkets than if it was just an equal chance across the entire (massive) loot table.
If you could theoretically take a handful of tokens to upgrade an item that would be amazing! Though you would need to limit it to X weeks out or set a requirement for the option to be unlocked. For example champion to heroic track would require hero tiered items in all slots. Hero to myth requiring myth in all slots. Perhaps tie it to the achievement of when you surpass a crest tier and no longer need those crests.
Growl is COMPLETELY wrong that removing depletion would enforce the meta. The entire reason the meta trickles down into lower keys as far as weekly 10s isn't because people think they need it to time, it's because they just want to give themselves the highest chance of success because they don't want to deplete. I'm not FOR removing depletion but if they did, it would make people more comfortable taking off-meta classes or people they don't know because there is minimal risk. I think they should allow a few key restores or re-tries a week would be a happy medium.
For those of us looking for upgrades, crafting provides a parallel track that is less RNG. We can still raid and M+ and hope we get lucky in vault, but if we have bad luck we can save tokens to craft something. One track for fun of lucky drops, one track for incremental advancement through persistence and hard work. It balances.
1:45:07 They aren't suggesting it be a support tank, they said tank spec INSTEAD OF support. The answer is obviously yes, the game would be much better off if dracthyr specs were dev, pres, & tank. & no support class added into the game. How did you misunderstand the question this badly 💀
It’s crazy that we all know that the problem is that there aren’t enough tanks, and they don’t think solution is to make more tank specs that people might play. Especially ones that can hybrid as healer. Half of the tanks can only offspec dps as melee. Aug/ Druid could have been the ranger healers and pally/ mist weaver could be the full melee healer hybrids. And it would have been the mail tank since they haven’t given shaman a tank spec still
Jak's video is just Theuns video the Resto Shaman guide writer. He's given up trying to change Blizzards mind because after 3-4 expansions and dozens of videos they've said they want to fix the things from his video and then done NOTHING about it. Every healer cd is far too strong, personal defensives are far too powerful.
@@ssv-y2q well if you can't even quote me right ofc you will have problems. I said JAK as in Automatic Jak the healer they show in the video. Who's video is just a rehashed version on Theuns. Twice now, not that there's anything wrong with that as both players are in the right and trying to make the game better for everyone. It's up to Blizzard to actually listen and implement the thing they said they would. And you can't say they don't know who he is, A) He's been writing wowhead guides for years and B) they almost go through the points he made in his videos point by point when addressing "going into TWW" and Jak has even done a video before on this directly quoting Theuns vid back then.
The issue I have the limitations to gearing, where Blizz say you HAVE to mythic raid or do high m+ to get myth pieces is something they decided by themselves. There is NO reason to not give the option of say, upgrade hero pieces to myth pieces without needing stupid amounts of gilded or doing mythic raiding. The people who play high end mythic raiding or high m+ (12+) are not fussed about gear or getting it, because they will be BiS at some point and fairly fast, so you are only limiting the people who play below this level. Which is pointless and just demotivates people from playing.
Remove myth track or make it more obtainable. Restricting high end gear to the most dedicated or people who play a lot means less people pushing higher end content. A lot of people just straight up quit seeing how difficult getting max myth gear is. I straight up had the most fun ever in WoW M+ in DFS3 and easy gearing was definitely the reason why. After a month I didn't really have to worry about my next piece of gear and I put all my time and focus into learning my class/dungeons. It's a damn shame they went back on that for a more restrictive gearing structure.
635, 2850 io, pugging as a tank was the worst I have personally experienced this season. The worst thing they did was make a significant wall at 12. There are way too many skill levels all doing the same keys for io and it is so draining when you keep getting people incapable of surviving bosses and brick keys. I haven't played in a week and I have uninstalled. I am taking at least a month off to hopefully recover from this burnout.
@@ssv-y2qperhaps, but (anecdotally) myself and other wow degens in my guild who usually play year round have quit because of the M+ changes. I want to play but the gear grind on alts is shit post 619 ilvl
yea, i also cannot phatom why they let this saison rot to keep some useless integrity of the saison instead of just going ham and letting players have fun to reward the poor souls still sticking around.
I'll give my take on Silken Court from the perspective of a late CE guild that just killed Court on sunday after 228 pulls - As a more casual mythic guild, we had 8 nights on this boss and we had 0 nights with the exact same 20 man roster. Every single raid someone new to the fight entirely was in, or someone had to learn a different spot, or someone who missed a raid had to wipe us to things the rest of us learned the previous raid. This led to frustrating reprog/deaths as we had to get people comfortable in new spots again - Melee groups could go fine but the small ranged groups in middle get greedy and kill each other, and now we wipe despite 14 people doing nothing wrong - Conversely, one melee decides to chimp out and move too fast or not move at all on the orb soak rotations and blow up the other group - One of our healers apparently doesn't have the mental bandwidth to heal and dispel at the same time so we wiped a lot at dispels until we just gave up and told him to not press a single healing button during dispels. And he still regularly was either too slow or too trigger happy (usually after a pull where we had problems with him being super slow) on the dispel - WoW players don't seem to understand boss-relative directions (vs true north etc). I learned these raiding in FF14 but it seems a lot of WoW-only people just can't grasp them, so on Web Pull we had a lot of people running in the wrong direction (they didnt understand that if you are in a different spot relative to the boss, your movement changes too) - People at this rank just straight up need more pulls to learn something. They either can't, or refuse to, learn from raidplans/logs/videos and need 5-10 pulls to understand each individual movement pattern in the fight, no matter how simple - People at this rank panic so hard when something doesn't go 100% as described/planned/previous attempts. We did the Web Grip pairs so 99% of the time you'd get paired with the same person and you know where they will run to break web. Rarely it would pair you with someone else and instead of just running in the same direction and breaking at the edge of the room, people would panic and run back under the boss, where the other group just got gripped. And the main problem: We couldn't really bruteforce these things. We could get a bit lucky on the better players getting dispels and having less chance for a spread, but that was about it in terms of "lucky pulls". Compared to Kyveza where our kill pull had 0 known chimps getting the charges and therefore the boss just kinda fell over with no issues. Because of the Red/Blue instakill mechanic there was always, always the possibilty of a demon hunter pressing fel rush and nuking the team. There was always the chance that our fury warrior turned his brain off and ran the wrong direction. There was always the chance that a healer panicked on web pull and just stood still under the boss and nuked the other group. At every point in the fight there was a chance for one single person to fuck up and just wipe the raid
I like the FFXIV way of "punishing" for fucking up raid mechanics. It's better to have a debufs to your dmg/healing rather than die and wipe your entire raid immediately
30:59 I'm so confused. How are 40% more people getting title? The title range is set at the top 0.1% of players in a season. The only way to increase the amount of players in the 0.1% is to increase the total amount of players, but it sounds like he's saying there's less players because the ones who would have run a '+2' in the past can't run a modern +2, which was a +12.
If they got rid of the depletion system along with depleted crest, I (healing) would more likely to be less picky of classes and io score in LFG. Time is valuable and it feels really bad to waste time with depleted crest and key.
I believe a good starting point would be do one dinar per season that you can upgrade like season 4 and see how it goes. This is a definite if they keep making items like spymaster. (Which they should, it’s fun) but without problems arises
The problem with deplete is the rewards. Downgrading key is for me ok but if you stick with the group and complete the key you should get the same crest, right now its a dubble punishment for deplete. This coming from someone that only plays M+
Not having to rely on RNG for trinkets and weapons was great. I’m happy to farm min/max statted gear as a relatively casual player, but waiting for spymasters or gale or skardyn’s is annoying.
This patch really got screwed up by the 12 key delve week and the high crest cap early on, i went from 605 to 619 week 2, then the only path to progress was doing +10 and wait for vault, and +10 was hard for awhile so it was fine, but when +10 became much easier now im just grinding pretty easy content for rng drop once a week to fill out the slots. you get to the "why am i doing this" stage way earlier than usual.
My idea for years now has been Instead of “homework” keys as they are now, you can help a friend do a lower key. By completing a lower key than you’re currently holding you can upgrade your key to one higher than your max timed. EXAMPLE: You failed a 12 Mists and it goes to an 11. You help someone else with their 10 Grim Batol. You can upgrade your key back to a 12. If you 2 chest a key, you can upgrade your key by 2. You can never upgrade your key past 1 above your max timed key of dungeon. You help LFG and you dont have to redo a trash dungeon one level less than the one you failed.
I think you should have key depletion protection at certain breakpoints - when youre adding another affix. So a 16 will deplete towards 12, but then will stop at 12. A 9 will deplete down towards a 7. A 6 towards a 4. Etc. This allows players to continue to practice keys if they're failing them in a similar environment to what they failed at previously. You add both tyran and fort at 10. If you deplete the 10 down to a 9, now it no longer has both affixes on it so its basically a completely different experience and doesnt provide players with a good practice environment for completing the 10 next time. Same goes for players trying to get into 12s. You try a 12, and fail. Now you have an 11 that is going to play literally NOTHING like a 12. It does nothing to really prepare you for completing a 12 in the future. Having breakpoints when affixes are added allows you to practice more and won't feel nearly as bad when a key is depleted.
I think if they didn’t tie depletion to a timer it would be better. People don’t get the chance to learn keys or learn a route because they’ll pull a pack that’s a bit too much, wipe, and lose time thus depleting a key. I really think the timer is the source for this feeling of “wasted time” people have with detractors such as walking back and the 15s death penalty. That walk back time could be used to strategize and regroup. With a timer it just encourages people to go fast and not consider what the mobs do. I think it also puts a lot of pressure on tanks to know a route and keep pulling removing the opportunity to experiment (which I think would make tanking fun and less stressful). If people want a timer, add it to the super high keys where they already know the routes and may need the extra challenge.
18:28 Growl asks a great question, if mid-season you could cash in a ticket for a fully BIS alt would that drive you to play the game more? Tettles response... "eh um ah em I don't think it would -> insert unrelated comments to follow". As a person who doesn't play this game for a living this would be rad! I would love to be able to move from my prot warrior to a disc priest and try healing keys, or a rogue to try something I've never done before. That would be super fun. Growl tee'd up a great question and it fell flat.
I stopped playing M+ completely for the 1st time since it was released in Legion. Went as far as I can go with my main and now gearing an alt takes way to long.
Ive not started season 1 M+ yet...I just can't bear to pug it and my guild went flat chat out of the blocks so I'm behind. Not complaining I'm just saying I have little reason or desire to do M+ this season. I think I'll learn mistweaver for something to do and then try season 2 and a team to run with. I think I'm done with pugging :(
Been trying to break into 12's since i have all 11's timed ( some +2 even). My experience has been thus: must use own key (no1 is inviting me to thier 12). Spend 20-30 minutes putting group together, 10 minutes later a pull goes awry for whatever reason, group disbands. Now I must spend 40 minutes to an hour pushing my key back up to 12. Time to play for the day is over and i've made zero progress for the day. I don't know if removing key depletion is the right move, but I'd love to try it once. Having to lose hours of time for mistakes that aren't your own is a terrible feeling. Most of the people I used to push keys with just don't anymore. Most of my depletes are tanks who think they're Dorki but are actually Leeroy Jenkins.
Depletions also mean there is an ever changing range of keys in the group finder which caters for all skill levels. If they never went down after a few weeks there’d be less lower keys in LFG. They just need to make crests the same times or not (within reason ie if you would get score you get crests)
Mana things people from MoP may remember. You get those Klaxxi crystals where you encase yourself in amber and regenerate 100% hp and mana over 10 seconds. You couldn't move however. It was the best in challenge modes way back when.
The fluctuating IO is what solo que has to be. Can only be played solo and if you fail the dungeon you lose io and if you clear it you gain. You would also lose more for incomplete than failing the timmer.
Easy solve. They need to make it so that you can double and triple deplete a key for next season and then when they revert it back to this current system everyone will be super happy with it /s. Thanks for the great chat as always :)
As someone who mainly does plus 10 keys and never sets foot in mythic raid I have gotten an upgrade from vault every week and still feels good to open half the time I’m only logging in for some casual 10-13 keys and tuesdays to open vault
I'm mostly happy with Retail. Some of those people complaining just need a break; breaks are healthy and good. I have taken breaks for years at a time. Right now I have a new bis gaming pc and I am thoroughly enjoying TWW.
I think there should be a like UI system for the vault that lets you choose a specific item that has a higher probability of showing up every week in 1 vault slot if it doesn't appear in the previous week(one choice from raid and one choice from m+). Like choose x trinket increase chance of it showing up goes up by 15% so after like 6 weeks if you are insanely unlucky with the prior increase appearance chance you just get it. So like for m+ this could be any item thats obtainable while for raid, since you can only obtain items from raid from the bosses you've killed so if you want to get spymasters kill silken at least once which unlocks their loot pool and you can just do a 6/8 to fill up vault for it.
m+ is harder than ever before you have to work twice as hard for max ilvl gear and you have to wait twice as long to get it recipe for disaster. you can't give people 1 max ilvl piece a week and expect them to have fun or stick around for 12 fucking weeks. we want gear we can chase not wait for.
1:06:40 why are there so few people listing their own keys right now? 1) laziness, nobody wants to do the effort to form a group 2) key depletion Let's not pretend that every single meta spec is about to just list their own key once depleting is removed. Don't underestimate laziness
29:33 I also forgot what the hell Growl was talking about. And that's the damage done when you give everyone a "Legendary". Over the course of three expansions, Blizzard trained me to stop caring about the orange text. Blizzard changed what the orange text meant. A powerful item, yes. But one that everyone had and was therefore not special or memorable in anyway. Dragonflight reclaimed SOME of that true Legendary feeling. But the damage wrought by those three expansions persists. Growl said 'Dragonflight Legendaries' and I was try to think of what orange text he was talking about, trying to conjure in my mind that orange text that everyone had in Dragonflight and wasn't special.
Cooking On Key Depletion: Why not apply a similar or the same Rarity system that is present in the crafting system? 2 Chest a +9 key to 11? That is a 2-star 11 Key. This lets you deplete it twice before it goes down to a 10. I feel like it helps the issues at hand somewhat, and still keeps the stakes of timing in the game.
Ok, here's my compromise for deterministic loot. You get a token on weeks 2 6 and 10, but the token is for a raind finer item that can be upgraded to mythic 6/6 but is unaffected by any valorstone or crest discounts.
Key depletion is most important in keys below 12 for people to find where their skill level is. Key depletion doesn't need to exist at the high end. As long as max-vault level boosts exist depletion needs to as well
Aight, so let me cook up something rq A problem i have with pugging keys is the key holder takes all the risk. What if each person in the group could wager their key alongside the key holder. In doing so, the keys are bonded and if it is depleted, all wagered keys are depleted. The benefit to wagering keys would be: for each ley wagered, you have a reset to attempt the run again. If the group times the run, all leys are upgraded. Some problems off the top of my head are: this doesnt solve the leaver problem. Somebody could wager their key and still watch the world burn. Also, the wagered keys would have to be the same level, to prevent high key pushers from wagering a +2. However, you could wager lower keys. Idk much of a disadvantage with that one. People would just be raising their key to a level they are already participating in.
I want active manage regeneration, like do something to get your mana back - would make it more interesting and give player more control over it compared to "people mess up a pull and then everyone waits until healer has enough mana again". :P
I think m+ would be interesting if each dungeon you completed had its own small progression system. You complete a 2, you can now do up to a 3 for that dungeon. Each dungeon is its own unique queue / grouping. I think for lower tier players, the issue is not only “i am not ready for 10’s” but also “i am yet to see this content above a 2 because nobody wants to do this dungeon” this would also mean if you are joining my 10 you have successfully completed this dungeon at a 9 in the past. Get rid of depletion and add more choice and progress
What are your guys' thoughts on depletion only if the key never gets finished? Rework it so 1* is simply finishing the key with the timer running out with 2* being timing it. This way you can make it so the key rerolls only if you finish the key, but also stops you from feeling like you're going backwards as long as the key gets finished while getting score even untimed.
Give everyone the legendary currency as a part of your vault and you can select which item to apply it to. By week x (5 or whatever) you are guaranteed to get that item.
@Valvad0ss I liked it, but I get that generation ADHD don't have the attention span for planning ahead for a 4 minute fight, everything has to be fast paced.
If you dont raid mythic and mostly play m+, your only way to upgrade is crafting and vault. Feels reeeeealy bad to have 2-3 weeks nothing good in vault. like the idea to upgrade to myth track
Yeah i had to quit, it was barley doable in dragonflight you still missed out on the op trinkets but but its not reasonable now, if you have to mythic raid to have some fun and run some Wow mythic dungeons at a remotley "competitive" level the game is not for me have fun
Then add in OP items from raid that you can't get stacked on top of piss poor M+ balance...
Myth track system needs to change
Yeh they are so disconnected from that. If we go back to legion even by just doing keys you could get decent amount of myth track equivalent titanforged gear and maybe doing heroics for titanforged set pieces. Now you just wait for a single vault item, even filling more than one slot is misery, only thing that is better is just the fact that you can convert normal items into set pieces otherwise its nearly like getting that chest as in the past. Like gearing through keys is like slowest it have ever been. And for raiders its like the opposite they are getting rained by loot more than ever deterministic loot that suck all the fun.
Only way to really gear by doing just keys is dealing with garbage crafting and its already nearly impossible to play the game without buying wow tokens, plus cba dealing with most garbage systems blizzard ever made. If i do keys i just want to be able to gear up by just doing keys same as pvp players that aren't forced to raid or do m+ as before.
@@ddddd74527 "Nah bro, max don't like "having" to farm m+ to raid bro"
Also your late-season alts are just forever behind because you're missing out on so many weeks of vault drops.
Gearing is fun when playing WoW is your job. For those people that have 9-5 jobs and similar cases and only have a few hours a day, it definitely is NOT fun, especially when vault RNG doesn't even "reward" you an upgrade.
High end m+ is for dedicated mythic raiders as of right now
I have a 9-5 job and I am 637 item level.
It takes me less than an hour to clear 4/8 every week (our record is sub 30 minutes run).
The mythic + slots of the vault just fill themselves up as I play the game during the week. I probably have to do maybe 2 +10 homework keys to fill all the slots.
But yes, it takes less energy to whine about how everything is super hard and how keys above +12 are for sweatlords only instead of finding a community of like minded people to clear 2 to 4 mythic bosses each week.
Yes, I won't get the 639 spymasters, but I can get pretty much everything else and me not having it probably is not the reason I will deplete my next key.
@@nickandreyev766 Why not have a dinar or bullion slot or two per season so you can get the spymasters and actually push as high as your skill allows? Some people don't enjoy mythic raiding period but want to play m+ at a high level, i don't want to do 4/8. Or why not have gear that scales to max ilvl in only m+ that you can get from +12's so raid enjoyers don't "have" to get them?
@@ssv-y2q ok, so first of all I do not enjoy raiding either and I'd prefer not having to do it at all. But then again, you can not refuse to participate in some kind of activity but expect to be rewarded the same stuff as people that participate in it. The reality is and always has been that the more time and effort you put into the game, the more gear you get. Now it is for you to decide how much time you are ready to spend on it, I think spending 40 minutes a week on something I don't like to do in the game is alright to get the upgrades for something that I do like to do.
And that "oh I wish I could just buy pre calculated bis gear from a vendor and push as high as my skill allows" is a myth. No amount of spymasters can salvage your (or mine for that matter) average soon-to-be-depleted key.
@@nickandreyev766 Disagree, i feel like just in pvp, you should only have to pvp to get essentially the best gear
I absolutely want an M+ solo queue, where you can choose between queueing for rating increases or queueing specific dungeons to target a piece of gear.
Some people might hate this, but a more radical idea that I'd enjoy would be transforming M+ into a kind of Street Fighter/League of Legends ranked system, where you can both gain and lose rating. It would be fun to try to become the best player possible and aim for Platinum or DIamond or Master Rank by the end of the season, each with its own special rewards.
Problem is theres a huge shortage of tanks and healers, so the solo queue will be all the off meta dps who dont get invited currently, sitting in a queue by themselves with no tanks and a few healers
Yall need to watch Kalamazi’s video on this. He breaks this all down excellently with keeping people playing long term and great vault changes
Everyone at 21:09 is so objectively wrong. This is the slowest gearing has ever been for people who M+. We get 1 myth item per week and have to upgrade 5 times for every piece.
Agreed, mythic track gear 1/6 feels basically the exact same as heroic 4/6 gear due to how many crests you need to farm to actually upgrade mythic track loot. Seeing that i needed 100+ dungeons to max out my gear just made me stop playing after i got my portals
Only really accurate if you've only played the last two expansions. They even mentioned how the vault used to just be a chest and you'd get one item from it, and until dragonflight you couldn't even get items at the highest ilvl if you only did M+. So sure, it's the slowest it's ever been, if you only include patches where it's been faster.
@@the0new0revolution the old chest was worse than the vault because it only gave you one option, but it was not slower - you get 1 item per week either way. What makes this season slower is that you need to get that 1 item per week AND then grind 6.25 dungeons worth of crests as well. This season is also the slowest version of the new gearing system, so their original comment in the video is still completely off base regardless.
That one guy comment incoming but respectfully really think the perspective of gearing for people with Mythic raid access is the least representative of the retail playerbase by miles. It's absolutely the smallest % participation/completion activity there is and gearing that involves it is not what most have access to. I play m+ mostly and easier raids and get upgrades from vault and crafts for characters often. I effectively can only get myth track from vault or 636 crafted, otherwise it might as well be inaccessible to me. I overall have enjoyed the "pace" with minor nitpicks, don't need full determinism but maybe slightly increased access proportionally to people who can mythic raid as someone who enjoys m+ but also basically only can m+.
The fact that in order to really push M+ you need to be a mythic raider is starting to become a serious problem. I don't know what the solution would be but I'm almost in favor of each pillar having a separate gear track. Say Mythic raiding drops crests and you can upgrade an item with crests, M+ drops valor and you can upgrade the same item with valor as well, do the same for delves, pvp and open world each with their own currency and the bonuses from these only become active in content if you have up graded them with the correct currency. Thats probably to convoluted but in a way it would be funny to see solo open world players clearing world quests faster than Mythic raiders...
Pvp has its own gear and I wish m+ was the same honestly
@@derangedhermit7981 we had the solution in S4, just give us a vendor that´ll sell some bis item every 2 weeks and it´s much less frustrating for everybody.
Vault change:
Being able to lock a slot if you already have the max ilvl of the content the vault give you.
Example: You got a myth bracer, be able to lock bracers from appearing in the vault.
It doesn't allow early patch cheese ways to get what you want, but it allows you to have more chances on items you need on the long run.
Maybe rings or trinkets would require 2 to lock. DUnno :P
YES! Last 4 weeks the only myth slots I've seen on my main have been those that I am already 639 in...
Facts
Great fucking idea 💯
"The moment I have to start practicing Dungeons, it becomes un-fun to me" - Tettles. So that what does he think raid progression is? or what he does in Dungeons on Alpha and Beta?
My problem is that the gap between an upgraded hero track piece and myth track piece is too big now that they are both 6/6 upgrade paths and feels bad it also even feels wrong to use gilded crests to upgrade a Hero track so really Hero track is 619 vs 639 which is a massive difference in player power for endlessly scaling content like M+ and there isn't even a crest discount above 619 for alts unless you are a fully 639 mythic raider. I think the biggest miss is they screwed up the curve of gearing and M+ difficulty in that there almost isn't one it's basically flat and then you hit a brick wall.
Hell yeah
You never upgrade a Hero track piece until you get a Myth track. Use the gilded crests on the myth track piece and then get the gilded reduction on Hero.
Increase end of dungeon crests and cap weekly. Implement bag slots in the vault interface where you can put one or two items that rolled for you that week that you never want to see again. Will make the vault more and more deterministic as season progresses
Weekly cap is fine. But double all acquisitions. So you get to cap faster each week or more importantly you actually have a chance of catching up if you don’t cap each week.
DF S4 was by far the best gearing. Being able to choose is what made it so much fun but also knowing that if you put in the work you got the item or upgrade, that made it so that every dungeon I ran I got a bit of dopamine vs a larger hit when a mythic track item drops from the vault. The other thing I noticed was when I got a bis item to level cap I sat back and felt satisfied like I do after a hard days work which is something thats missing from the vault. The vault is an either fuck this or finally. I know I said before there was dopamine being released during the vault but I kind of wonder if there is, if I examine how I feel its less excitement and more of a finally that RNG grind is over hopefully I get the next item next week.
But its also probably why I don't gamble. I don't feel excitement at wining, just a bit of relief instead.
yea, as goated as S3 is, i think S4 i´ve had the most fun in wow probably ever. Finally just enjoying the gameplay without all the useless hops and rings to go through. I much rather have consistent enjoyment rather than a dopamine spike ever so often between a valley of despair and sadness.
Hell yeah, being able to have the trinkets without being in one of the freaking 180 guilds who kill the end boss even somewhat remotely early and being one of the people that get its, and it dropping early, and multiple times was amazing. I could probably join a top 500 guild and eventually get it but i just don't want to id rather not play
The mental gymnastics to avoid admitting that M+ solo queue is the solution are astounding, especially since it’s been the industry standard in competitive games for over a decade.
1 ladder for solo/duo players
1 ladder for groups of 3+ players
The current key system is outdated and wastes everyone’s time. Just implement a ranking system like every other competitive game in existence: your score rises or falls based on wins and losses. Let Blizzard handle edge cases like lust, battle res, and other details-they clearly have the resources to make it work.
No one else should control whether you get to play the game. You should be able to log in on any class or spec, press "Play," wait a bit, and dive in. Until that happens, M+ will continue to decline.
Winning or losing doesn’t matter; at least I’d be playing the actual computer game, in combat, the way I want, on the class and spec I enjoy, when I want to play.
Stop overcomplicating why this wouldn’t work, let them work out the nuances because it's their literal job to do so-it’s time for change.
M+ soloqueue just doesnt work in this game
Would you just queue and get a RANDOM dungeon? What level would you get? Who has the key you are doing? If you still have to risk your key for it, why wouldnt you just handpick your group via the premade system?
@@robertkovacs426 The billion dollar company who employs entire teams of people to design computer games for a living should figure that part out. I can think of a hundred ways off the top of my head to answer all of those questions to make the system work, but it’s up to blizzard to design it.
Cause pvp solo que where dps have que time up to 30 mins is what we want, and in that we don't even need a tank just a healer, are dps player gonna wait like 1 hour for each que? Your entire point of the way you want, on what u want and when you want goes away so fast if que is added.
Should we lose rating when we depletes a key? like in all of those competitive games? Imagine now deplete key but instead you lose like 20 ratings cause one of your dps didn't kick.
Should you get punished if you leave a key unless we do a surrender thing?
I don't mind solo que being added but if you think current system is toxic and bad etc. Imagine if you lose like 30 ratings when key gets depleted and it's due to your team unfortu didnt get an Aug and got an arms warrior instead
1) Solo que into m+
2) Get into grim batol with prot paladin, disc priest, hunter, paladin and rogue
3) Leave the key, because it is not doable without decurse
4) Repeat for stone vault
5) Get banned for a week for too much leaves
I mean I understand if you never go past a +8 where you can basically drool on your keyboard and ++ the key, it's not a problem, but current m+ and solo que are incompatible at fundamental level
On my pally who has a grand total of one mythic item I've gone 4 weeks with bad vaults despite filling with 3 mythic slots. All poorly itemized necks rings and C or worse trinkets. I really hate the RNG, we need some form of determinism.
"Nah bro just join a guild bro" "Just spend 8 hours a week mythic raid bro, no free loot for you bro" And i even used to be a highest difficulty raider
I personally think the easiest fix for this is that your vault can only have items from the dungeons you did that week in it so if you really want a specific trinket, you can just do that dungeon eight times and fill your goal if you wanna do it
I call cap
@@silvestre93ify I’m going on week 3 with no mythic upgrades. I’ve only gotten items my healer spec uses but I don’t heal I dps. Actually communicate and gain perspective 🤡
@@Valvad0ss he said he has 1 out of 14 gear slots are myth for him he said he had 3 bad vaults I call cap
I don't mythic raid and my vaults for the last 5 weeks have been some combination of weapons and shields (already crafted), and the single myth track slot I've already had for a month (chest). Some of these have been the exact same pieces that have been in my vaults previous weeks. I don't understand why there's no protection against repeats in particular, like maybe if you don't take that slot and equip it but like why is the exact same item in the same slot at the same item level allowed to appear over and over, it's so frustrating.
I think max said, "They want you to join a guild and make friends"
@@ssv-y2q i would rather quit the game, we are right back to raid or die
@@SYL3NZR Yeah if there is no m+ only i quit too
M+ is less fun, mostly due to gear being slower and harder to get( Yes i know mythic raiders like yummytv loves it because they can get more fun from getting gear longer) but for the only m+ players its worse, along with the new system for kicks being ass for pugs(Yes i know, "just join liquid bro" "Get good bro" "No free gear for you bro" "Just have friends available at all times bro" ) tanks having less ability for the tank to carry more is worse for the average m+ only. Yes i know if you don't want to mythic raid and do high keys the game is not your game, which i find to be a shame
i wouldnt call him a mythic raider, he comes across as only doing the raid because some of the trinkets are broken as fuck
@@Bashera46 So he spends hours in a mythic raiding guild which is exactly what i dont want to do any more if i don't have to to m+
As someone fighting for my life in +12s and i only have 4 pieces of mythic gear plus two 636 crafted items, this podcast is becoming more and more out of touch of my experience and unrelatable to the way i play wow.
Or you can just say you're bad.
@MarkElf2204 yeah I'm not as good as players who participate in MDI and are pushing 0.1% Title keys, but statistically neither are you. Who hurt you to provoke you to say something mean to a stranger on the Internet?
@@MarkElf2204 Bro all timed 11s put you in the top 2% of the m+ ladder, so about in the top 1% of players. That's not being bad. You need to be really good at the game to time 12s, especially as a tank.
@@MrDoctorDave makes you realise how out of touch most of these people are inside their own little eco chamber. completely ignoring the fact that noone will care about their achievements if m+ completely dies out. because that's what happens when the content doesn't draw in new players.
@@MarkElf2204lol sounds like you’re out of touch too
Hot Take: The Catalyst should have two charges, one that is exactly the same as it is now - you can convert 1 piece of gear to tier every other week, etc. and on the other weeks you should get a charge that will enable you to convert a fully-upgraded piece of gear to the next track. So those who only do M+ have a path to max Ilvl.
So one week you can change a piece of gear to tier and the other week you can convert a piece from heroic to mythic track. Give people and alts a way to catch up. As an M+ only player (due to varying IRL schedule) I've given up playing this season because of how terrible gearing is. Instead of playing an alt or pushing keys I'm just going to go play other games. At this point my interest to even come back is not there unless they actually make real changes.
Yumy doesnt see the bad side of things cause everything just magically works out for him. Just to put into perspective i already ran almost 30 arakara dungeons +7-10 range and still dont have a sacbrood. These things do happen all the time but people dont see it. There needs to be some bad luck protection for sure cause 30 runs is already enough to make some people quit.
Did 40+ mist for changeling. It’s the hunt that makes it fun!
I’d be fine with a three strikes deplete. Put three gemstones on the key, whenever it depletes one of the gems breaks, and if all 3 break without timing the key it depletes a level. Lets people run keys without needing to constantly reprog, but also prevent total brute forcing.
I paused my sub til 11.1. This patch cycle was so fast, which is fine. But at the moment there's is nothing to do, which interests me. But i prefer this, because i have time to play other stuff without "wow-work" to do. This way i look forward to 11.1. a lot more.
Possible solution for the Crest system.
DF s4: Awakened 1/12
So every item for the season starts at 1/12. There's only 1 crest or currency to upgrade everything with.
M0, 2, 3 / LFR: 1/12 - 3/12
M+4, 5, 6 / N: 4/12 - 6/12
M+7, 8, 9 / H: 7/12 - 9/12
M+10 / M: 10/12 - 12/12
That way, as people through the season, they have milestones.
Getting a full normal clear or 2k io could make all upgrades of sub 6/12 gear free
Getting to AotC or 2.5k io could make all upgrades of gear sub 9/12 free
I'm down
1/12 only applied to denar gear for a reason, otherwise you could get all your bis gear from spamming +2
this legit would be really nice. the current gearing system is waaaaaaay too complicated imo (coming from a guy that has played off and on since vanilla). why are there so many different currencies and tracks? consolidate the explorer/adventurer/veteran tracks into one and have that gear drop form normal/heroic dungeons/world stuff.
current gearing is confusing for new and returning players. maybe i'm just dumb, or i didn't read a key quests explanation of the system, but i had to do research on the world wide web in order to figure out how i should be using these gearing systems. and going outside of your game to figure out something that should be straight forward is very bad design.
I had a similar idea, drop crests and just use stone each key level drops a set amount of stones the higher the key the more stones. Also the higher the key the higher the item level that drops. So you could get a bis from a +2 but would cost you a lot to get it to max or if it drops from a 10 it’s costs less. Means the people who are 619 or sub 8, then they still can work to upgrade gear.
This is such a genius idea but I'd make one change, make every item drop at 1/12, but you get the currency to upgrade it at those different break points. Otherwise I feel like there wouldn't be enough incentive to get people into the higher keys and m raid, but 1 million % yes please just make gear 1 track. Imagine doing a +3 key and getting sacbrood and actually feeling good about it because you can upgrade it to max eventually instead of currently where your first thought is "nice, but I wish it was myth track"
M+ is not league of legends. I find it frustrating when people who will never encounter the punishments or issues with the system claim “its working” or suggest alternatives that will make it more toxic. IO depletion will only make the top end feel better about themselves and make the existing problems 1000x worse
I'm so sick of these elitist loud voice full time streamers who the devs are fans of f em, bro we wanna play the game and have fun. And i even used to be a top 2-3xx guild player
Tettles saying "Well in m+ you reach your level" is so disrepsectfull, yeah i wanna reach my level but not be held back by something that's not my level and have to work a second job to do some World of Warcraft Mythic Dunegons its so wild screw that guy. Yes i know if that's what it is the game is not for you so yeah i quit, I don't even mind gear being from +10 but that along with so many other changes made the game miserable from tank agency, crests ect
yea, that is just insane. Especially as in all those games everyone has the exact same gear and it´s all about skill. In wow you can have all the skill you want if you have less time or missed the first few vaults and you´re way behind now. Even in week one you had the people full hero clearing doing 10s in 615+ilvl with tiersets active, and then you had people going in with some delve gear and ilvl 605-10 trying to do the same. That´s just two different games at this point.
Nathria was the last time healing felt sustainable, ever since then I have had to continually focus more and more on instantly pushing healbars up instead of planning which order to use things in to make it to the end. I wish they would go back to the older style but I know they wont so I have been exploring hobbies outside of wow instead of playing when I am not raiding
League has a good thing. Clash tickets. What if once a month, the lowest played specs of each role gets a special keystone from the vendor. And can choose to push it. Then at the end of Sunday, the highest lvl of that key, maybe a % of them, get a special in-game reward. It could be even more, maybe the players participated in those get a little something for helping them. This would help lower played specs such as h priest, or survival hunters to be invited more or get keys more during that week or weekend. They could do so much, like put a statue in the main hub of who had the highest key for that month. Could be a great achievement
vault should be supplemental NOT REQUIRED. all items you want for gearing your toon should be available to grind out the drops from m+ or raid. 12+'s should drop myth gear.. CHANGE MY MIND
Literally this. No reason an average Joe can go 4/8M and have 5 chances at Myth gear every week. But I can push 8 12's a week and I only get 1 chance at Myth every week. Give me either end of dungeon Myth or something that let's me convert hero track to Myth track gear
"But bro, max said he does not want to "HAVE" to farm +12's for the race bro" "You gotta think about the race bro its a huge marketing opportunity for blizzards game World of Warcraft"
@@ssv-y2qfair point but also the 1% goblins will do 1% goblin things and there’s no way to stop them
This so muchhh
Give me a way to farm the gear foreverrrr
Right now I’m getting in to 10s and one I did my 8 tens for 3 myth track vaults I just logged out for the rest of the week
I found it really hard to be motivated to keep the grind on because I had to wait for my vault for the best chance at loot.
I’m 624 right now and yes I could try to farm 8s for crests and flight stones to get all my gear higher but I’m able to do 10s and 8s aren’t that difficult for me anymore…
So I went over to another toon and started to try and make some gold but I was not enjoying it nearly as much as mashing my face on the keyboard in M+ dungeons
I don't think key depletion matters as much as ya'll are saying.
People are trying hard and failing which makes people toxic. They are trying hard because it takes so long to get a group together (30-45+ min) only to fail and waste your time. Groups take so long to form because there it a massive shortage of tanks.
Tanks aren't playing or pugging M+ because blizzard gutted the role to make it awful and unfun to play.
If blizz wants to fix M+, they can either revert the tank buffs or maybe they can tank their dungeons themselves because players aren't doing it.
removing myth track from m+ just means a majority of people will cap out around 626+ what ever craft items they can be bothered to farm. its def a huge killer for ppl. mythic raiding being 20 man is also a content killer cause its outdated to require 20 ppl for end game content.
bring back myth track dropping, and do something like opening up flex raiding 10-20man after world first or hall of fame fills up. attached titles or xmog or mounts to those that can complete at 20 man mythic raiding or something. pretty sure most every other game doesnt require 20 ppl anymore cause the gaming sphere changed from getting that many ppl together.
What do you guys mean when you say the crest grind was longer previously? Because it is 100% longer than any season in DF. Even with a 25% crest discount it will still be longer than DF.
They are fully bised out, the get the first op trinket that drops and all mythic track items because the are streamers or high in the social hierarchy.
They literally said DF was the exception & that it was way longer in every other prior expac.
@@Gaius_Sinstone then how are they measuring it? SL i vaguely remember being fully geared if you mythic raiding relatively early but that was also a long time ago and on a completely different gearing system.
@@Gaius_Sinstone lmao they are comparing apples to oranges. Stop it
1:00:00 in... You guys need to consider the M+ depletion question from the POV of someone that doesn't play WoW for a living.
thue-wed-thurs are raiding days. the little time I have before raid is used for the various weekly chore we have to do this tier, possibly on multiple character since my guild need a Brewmaster for queen, BDK for brood, and why would you tank on anything other than Ppal in M+?
There's no reason whatsoever for key depletion in low keys or high keys. Us who don't play WoW for a living ( and god help you if you have an actual RL job / family to tend to) don't have time to waste doing 3 hours of homework keys everytime you deplete a 16 SV in the first 2 minute. There's not enough hours in the day to waste redoing a 15 mist for the 25th time and before someone meme about "" dad with 3 job and 12 kids"" ... I got multiple hall of fame with my schedule, because I can spend that time progressing in raid... not doing homework keys.
You are worried that without the "privilege" of being the key holder, you won't get to run keys are a non-meta class? Who the heck do you think is pushing M+ on non-meta class right now? Squishvegan or Mordrim aren't pugging! Remove depletion and maybe we'll invite something other than meta because the punishment for not following Yoda exact comp and exact talent setup and exact route isn't so severe.
You are worried that without depletion someone who got a lucky +2 on a easy key will terrorize the LFG queue? Well bud you choosed to queue up for a key whose leader in 250 IO below what you'd expect... but guess what? maybe he's a diamond in the rough. Maybe it'll take you a few try to time that key. Maybe you'll make a friend.
Honestly, keeping depletion in might be your worst ever take.
Always nice to have these topics come up for us to realize these community voices aren’t as smart as we are led to think they are. These people who play wow for a living or major content creators don’t consider time a motivational factor or an important resource. “If keys don’t deplete there are no stakes and stakes are what make it fun” paraphrasing Quazii. The idea that time and effort are not “stakes” is the big dividing issue. These guys don’t understand the concept of that value so they can’t comprehend casual player behavior. Just for the record I’m a former CE raider that does key sales as all three roles. And I’m telling you please put me out of business. I’m zealous to the point of valuing effort that keys should always go up for completion only score is timer related. Absolutely eviscerate all these bogus arguments and let players play the way they want to and define their own ideas of success instead of defining it for them with this awful and abusive system that serves no one expect the no lifers.
I agree with so much you said, and i am on the team no depletion either.
There is one thing tho that i am afraid of happening with no depletion and it is, that the meta will probably turn into mdi pulls and if they fail redo the key, so basically spam a low % chance pull on er and over again until it works.
I am aware that this will not be necessary in the majority of Keys but we as a community are meta whores so this will trickle down to lower keys as will, and this degenerate gameplay would suck.
@@horaculus9190 but how is this different from pulling a quadruple pack at the beginning of SV? or the old double scarab pull in city? or everything to first mini in ara-kara? or the quadruple pull in necrotic?
The top pusher already do those MDI-esque pull because they need to. the lower push won't spend 1 hour trying to figure out a pull on a key where timer isn't the issue.
This nonsensical fear come from MDI player who have 6 hour to spend trying to make 1 pull work on a tournament realm.
@ because they would not stop at the quadruple pack, they would pull all 6 golems in SV.
@@horaculus9190 but why would they do this? Just because someone can do something or a change allows them freedom to do something doesn’t mean it will lead to massive change in behavior. I’ll give you a bit of history here. Back in legion you used to be able to swap trinkets in mythic plus. The very top MDI players used OPie to rolodex through several different trinkets throughout a dungeon. Do you know how many players even bothered to do this? Almost no one. Most key pushes just swapped a defensive trinket in for certain one shots and that’s about it. Most players do the least they have to do get the reward they want. This idea that everyone will start doing even crazier pulls than are needed for keys and waste more time is rooted in a complete lack of understanding regarding player behavior.
Healing dungeons in the war within is like playing 5 simultaneous games of pong while also playing dance dance revolution.
PS. change the stupid dispell affix to an extra action button that each player has to press themselves.
@@leorictristram4894this would be the coolest thing to do
I do 16x 10s every week to max vaults on two co-mains.
My primary goals are to keep getting better at tanking, and to build my contact list of friends to push higher keys.
Would you prefer it to be slightly easier and be able to get myth gear from another source?
@@ssv-y2q Good questions I guess. I like feeling challenged, and the sense of accomplishment that comes with doing something challenging. So I would be against making it too easy because then what's the point?
I mean, 10s were hard at first, but once gilded became available from 8s, and we could upgrade to 626... 10s feel pretty automatic now. Timed 4 in a row last night to help friend get her portals.
@@joveonlightbringer9684 I don't think 10's are too hard, but only getting 1 rng pice per week sucks imo, if you care about getting full bis you need to be a mythic raider
@@ssv-y2q I understand; I have some weeks with bad vaults. But if all my friends go on break once they get all their gear, why do I want them to get it all even faster? My own approach is to fill vault so I get 3x M choices every week, and I get upgrades more often than not. On the bad weeks, I console myself with crafted upgrades. We need a system that keeps us busy till next patch, OR we need to accept that there will be dead periods (lulls) in the 2nd half of every season.
01:02:00 Lol How does growl think that depletion helps the non-meta classes? It way more impactful to meta classes that no one wants to chance any IO key on non-meta classes if they aren't the keyholder because the penalty for failing is depletion. How can you not see this? What a bad take.
Also if someone gets a 14 Grim off a 12 Mists, they have every right to be in that key. Is isn't getting their foot in the door. That is how the meta classes got there too typically. They likely will fail it list most people when getting a 14 off of a 12 their first time.
They try to make their narrative appear rights to feed their egos with non-sense.
Depletion being so common and so more punishing now is the actual reason behind that meta chasing. And nobody is going to start doing some mdi pulls in mid ranges either spending hundreds of gold for repairs and consumables.
That whole spiel was so backwards. Not depleting would make the risk of bringing non meta specs to the keys down. Not sure how he even got to the opposite idea.
An idea for key depletions, as a small fix: you should always be able to reroll your key at the end. Regardless of whether you time it or not and regardless of whether the key is higher or lower than your key.
“Where you actually don’t get an upgrade (in the vault) weeks 4, 5, 6. I feel like everybody kind of runs into that issue.” - Tettles. Is he actually incapable of relating to people that aren’t top 0.1-1% mythic plus players, or does he think those are the only people that listen to this podcast?
On the Patch 11.0.7 PTR, hotfixes have been pushed with average 35% buffs the upcoming ring, Cyrce's Circlet.
- Thunderlord's Crackling Citrine damage increased by 20%
- Squall Sailor's Citrine damage increased by 43%
- Undersea Overseer's Citrine damage increased by 44%
- Storm Sewer's Citrine shield increased by 20%
- Old Salt's Bardic Citrine healing increased by 43%
- Mariner's Hallowed Citrine healing increased by 44%
1:03:00 I agree that depletion gives power to key holders, and thus can allow non-meta specs to have a chance to be a part of a key, but I think overall no-depletion will reduce the reliance on meta comps because people wont need to be as strict on who they invite. If someone has a high io non-meta class signup to their key, they'd be wayyyyyyy more likely to give them a chance than now.
Sure, they could AFK in dornogal for another 10minutes waiting for that perfect spec, or they could just be in the dungeon playing the game instead and kick the non-meta guy if its just not working out and relist.
The single worst thing about the pug m+ scene is that there are literally 2-4 specs per season that you can play if you want to get invited to keys (enhance/dk this season).
I actually played more m+ on beta than I have on live, because no-depletion was so fking amazing for pugging. Glad I did, because live is terrible.
There is such a tank shortage atm that its heavily limiting the number of groups that can be formed.
I'm a healer main that has played every season of M+ since BFA launched. I've never had trouble going into Keystone Hero and beyond, even on non-meta specs. This is the first time in 7 years I've hit a hard wall, due to the design decisions surrounding this season. I'm playing the meta healer, Resto Shaman, so I'd hate to see what it's like for other specs. I've done all the +11s and am 2700+ rating, but I am NOT ALLOWED into groups doing 12s because of two main reasons;
The limit on gear level you can get from M+ means Myth track gear from the Vault is the only way to progress, meaning people with older characters are going to have a higher item level and look more attractive in the group finder, instead of better players who complete higher content and get commensurate rewards. Higher item level is a sign of character seniority, not ability to clear hard content. This makes it nearly impossible to play alts in the "alt friendly" expansion.
This design where tanks can randomly fall over dead like paper combined with the disproportionately punishing death timer penalties means that people leave groups at the drop of a hat, so they're even more incentivized than ever to go for overkill in the group finder. 2700 is about the right time to start tackling 12s, but people organizing 12s can just fill their group with 2900 or 3000 players. This limits the upward mobility of new players and alts, kills peoples' interest in M+, and the entire ecosystem collapses -- hence the pitiful player counts for an expansion launch patch.
It's frustrating in so many ways and a straight downgrade from the perfectly good way things have worked in numerous previous seasons.
I love the Shred guy, being anxious about healing Ara-Kara 3.
Meanwhile, here I am, tanking GB 14, wiping on the second pull, "ggs, nt" go next, this time wiping on the 5th pull etc. etc. till I time the dungeon with some random pug.
I feel like a good middle ground for key depletion that fixes both the "getting your key downgraded" and "running a key endlessly until every pull is perfect" would be to give keys CDs. Once you slot the key in and click start, it puts your keystone on cooldown (1hr, 2hr, etc). Then, the cooldown is removed once you complete a dungeon. So even if the key isn't perfect, you are still incentivized to finish, because only by finishing, are you able to go again for that key and that level.
Break the meta is so stupid, because people just run the A tier specs instead of the S tier, it should've never been anything higher beyond the bottom of stuff, worst 2-3 healers, worst 2 tanks, worst 8 or so dps specs
So much hype that I didn't even know that the patch was next week.
"the vault is not bad", no, the vault is not bad if you fill all valuable slots, with max itm lvl, every week, and you can still roll 6 belts, a targeting system for items, or like tettles said, the ability to ugrade to myth track with tokens. also maybe unpouilar opinion, but the vault being rng is stuid: imagine raying the rng gods all week for an item to dro from m+ and maybe you got unlucky and it never drops, you think "i cant wait for all the effort/work i ut in all week to be rewarded with more rng with the vault", vault should be a reward for the things you've done during the week in game, where is the roblem to give the ability to target an item? make a currency like the catalyst and every 2 week you can target 1 item.
It's not bad for top 180 myhtic raiders streamers they don't need it
yeah the vault rng is excessive. the gearing in ff14 might be boring, but at least i know for a 100% fact that i'll be full bis after doing the raid 8 times. they use a token system in that game, so when you clear a boss they give you a book on a weekly basis and those books can be traded for raid gear.
also a little side tangent, but why can't we be bis, or close to it, a couple months into a patch in wow? i'd love to play alts in wow, but it's extremely hard to do that without no life-ing the game. the gatekeepy nature people have in regards to gear in wow is ridiculous. i know it goes against wows fundamental design (which has always been gear centric), but wouldn't having the gear "early" allow people to have fun faster? wow is already a seasonal game so why not accelerate the timeline a bit for us normies?
As someone who only has time for like 4-5 keys a week a way to pick my keystone either from vault which dungeon I want or the end of dungeon re-roll should be my choice. I basically run mists every week to reroll my key in hopes it's a dungeon I need and if not week is basically over
My idea would be to give every player a Mythic Key item at the start of the season that stores your current M+ progress.
If you want to unlock a level 6 Mythic dungeon, you need to first complete it on level 5. This sounds like it would be more grinding, but it would allow you to run the same key level as many times as you want until you’ve completed it for the day.
At the end of the week, you take your key to a special M+ NPC and instead of getting a Vault reward, your key has points recorded on it and you use those points to purchase an item from any of the dungeons you’ve completed.
If you only did +8 Ara Kara that week, you could only buy an Ara Kara item equivalent in ilvl to what the vault would give you for completing an 8.
Imho, key depletion only when dungeon is not completed, and increase crests from missed timer to 7 or 8 so sticking with the party is more worth it
just remove key depletion. We have a NPC to lower keys now if you want to do that... there's no reason to lock up group for 40 minute in a dungeon just to not deplete a key.
@@vincenthamel3420 exactly that. leave it in the player's hands to take the key down if they want. personally i'd love the option to bang my head against a 12 or whatever
With the vault, something that would help players who do not mythic raid would be either the ability to de-select slots they no longer need myth track gear for, or a system that automatically scans your equipment for what slots you have myth track gear in already.
Here is my 2cents
•Myth Track in vault at +9
•15 crests on timing
•10 crests on deplete
•Crest reduction at iLvl equal to crafted
•Crafts cost 75 crests
•add 5 min to the timers, if you complete within the new 5min window, your key stays same level
•Portals to 12
•Trinkets removed from Vault, trinkets purchasable with vault tokens
Maybe implement a way that you can separate a key into a "completion" and a timing key. Completion key cant go up or down, you only get 10 crests.
One of my biggest problems with M+ is the pain points for me are usually in specific parts of the dungeon that dont happen until 15-30 minutes into the dungeon. I wish there was some way I could practice specific spots of the dungeon without having to trudge through the slog just to see if I can improve this time or not.
A small cook, what if they divided every dungeon into wings that started with the death of each boss, then made those wings into delves where the difficulty is tied to whatever the M+ difficulty is for the dungeon. That way of you're struggling with a boss or pull you can practice that pull with a team
I think there's not enough said about the actual items that drop in the vault because it seems like there's a pretty high chance for trinkets and the very rare pieces. It's still random, but there's definitely weighting in our favor.
What are you basing this on? Have the released the drop rates and how the system works?
@@ssv-y2q Seems pretty apparent just watching a variety of vault discord channels where people post every week what they get. You see a disproportionate number of VR items and trinkets than if it was just an equal chance across the entire (massive) loot table.
@@jacobthompson1569 That's true
I have the mythic rash cloak on 3 chars because of vault lol
Just change keystone Challenger from the 15s penalty to key depletion and move it up to +12s and higher
If you could theoretically take a handful of tokens to upgrade an item that would be amazing! Though you would need to limit it to X weeks out or set a requirement for the option to be unlocked. For example champion to heroic track would require hero tiered items in all slots. Hero to myth requiring myth in all slots. Perhaps tie it to the achievement of when you surpass a crest tier and no longer need those crests.
Growl is COMPLETELY wrong that removing depletion would enforce the meta. The entire reason the meta trickles down into lower keys as far as weekly 10s isn't because people think they need it to time, it's because they just want to give themselves the highest chance of success because they don't want to deplete. I'm not FOR removing depletion but if they did, it would make people more comfortable taking off-meta classes or people they don't know because there is minimal risk. I think they should allow a few key restores or re-tries a week would be a happy medium.
For those of us looking for upgrades, crafting provides a parallel track that is less RNG.
We can still raid and M+ and hope we get lucky in vault, but if we have bad luck we can save tokens to craft something.
One track for fun of lucky drops, one track for incremental advancement through persistence and hard work.
It balances.
1:45:07 They aren't suggesting it be a support tank, they said tank spec INSTEAD OF support. The answer is obviously yes, the game would be much better off if dracthyr specs were dev, pres, & tank. & no support class added into the game. How did you misunderstand the question this badly 💀
It literally said "buffing and CC" so it is suggesting a support tank.
Are you blind or stupid?
It’s crazy that we all know that the problem is that there aren’t enough tanks, and they don’t think solution is to make more tank specs that people might play. Especially ones that can hybrid as healer.
Half of the tanks can only offspec dps as melee. Aug/ Druid could have been the ranger healers and pally/ mist weaver could be the full melee healer hybrids. And it would have been the mail tank since they haven’t given shaman a tank spec still
@@SwordsPass Is that why people don't play tanks though, or is it more that the changes to tanking for TWW haven't hit their mark
Jak's video is just Theuns video the Resto Shaman guide writer. He's given up trying to change Blizzards mind because after 3-4 expansions and dozens of videos they've said they want to fix the things from his video and then done NOTHING about it.
Every healer cd is far too strong, personal defensives are far too powerful.
I have no idea who "jack" is, wow devs only watch max and the people that pop on the youtube algo
@@ssv-y2q well if you can't even quote me right ofc you will have problems. I said JAK as in Automatic Jak the healer they show in the video. Who's video is just a rehashed version on Theuns. Twice now, not that there's anything wrong with that as both players are in the right and trying to make the game better for everyone. It's up to Blizzard to actually listen and implement the thing they said they would.
And you can't say they don't know who he is, A) He's been writing wowhead guides for years and B) they almost go through the points he made in his videos point by point when addressing "going into TWW" and Jak has even done a video before on this directly quoting Theuns vid back then.
@@Theparadoxd7 I doubt blizzard devs know who he is, they only watch the biggest streamers like most normal people
The issue I have the limitations to gearing, where Blizz say you HAVE to mythic raid or do high m+ to get myth pieces is something they decided by themselves. There is NO reason to not give the option of say, upgrade hero pieces to myth pieces without needing stupid amounts of gilded or doing mythic raiding. The people who play high end mythic raiding or high m+ (12+) are not fussed about gear or getting it, because they will be BiS at some point and fairly fast, so you are only limiting the people who play below this level. Which is pointless and just demotivates people from playing.
Remove myth track or make it more obtainable. Restricting high end gear to the most dedicated or people who play a lot means less people pushing higher end content. A lot of people just straight up quit seeing how difficult getting max myth gear is. I straight up had the most fun ever in WoW M+ in DFS3 and easy gearing was definitely the reason why. After a month I didn't really have to worry about my next piece of gear and I put all my time and focus into learning my class/dungeons. It's a damn shame they went back on that for a more restrictive gearing structure.
635, 2850 io, pugging as a tank was the worst I have personally experienced this season. The worst thing they did was make a significant wall at 12. There are way too many skill levels all doing the same keys for io and it is so draining when you keep getting people incapable of surviving bosses and brick keys. I haven't played in a week and I have uninstalled. I am taking at least a month off to hopefully recover from this burnout.
Blows my mind Blizz isn’t making changes to M+ or at least announcing future changes.
The new system is good for metrics and token buying, they are probably making as much money from gold being more needed and more people wanting boosts
@@ssv-y2qperhaps, but (anecdotally) myself and other wow degens in my guild who usually play year round have quit because of the M+ changes. I want to play but the gear grind on alts is shit post 619 ilvl
@@themInterwebs Same, you are not their target audience, their target audience is token buyers
yea, i also cannot phatom why they let this saison rot to keep some useless integrity of the saison instead of just going ham and letting players have fun to reward the poor souls still sticking around.
i wish blizz sold their WoW IP to a company that cares about their customers
I'll give my take on Silken Court from the perspective of a late CE guild that just killed Court on sunday after 228 pulls
- As a more casual mythic guild, we had 8 nights on this boss and we had 0 nights with the exact same 20 man roster. Every single raid someone new to the fight entirely was in, or someone had to learn a different spot, or someone who missed a raid had to wipe us to things the rest of us learned the previous raid. This led to frustrating reprog/deaths as we had to get people comfortable in new spots again
- Melee groups could go fine but the small ranged groups in middle get greedy and kill each other, and now we wipe despite 14 people doing nothing wrong
- Conversely, one melee decides to chimp out and move too fast or not move at all on the orb soak rotations and blow up the other group
- One of our healers apparently doesn't have the mental bandwidth to heal and dispel at the same time so we wiped a lot at dispels until we just gave up and told him to not press a single healing button during dispels. And he still regularly was either too slow or too trigger happy (usually after a pull where we had problems with him being super slow) on the dispel
- WoW players don't seem to understand boss-relative directions (vs true north etc). I learned these raiding in FF14 but it seems a lot of WoW-only people just can't grasp them, so on Web Pull we had a lot of people running in the wrong direction (they didnt understand that if you are in a different spot relative to the boss, your movement changes too)
- People at this rank just straight up need more pulls to learn something. They either can't, or refuse to, learn from raidplans/logs/videos and need 5-10 pulls to understand each individual movement pattern in the fight, no matter how simple
- People at this rank panic so hard when something doesn't go 100% as described/planned/previous attempts. We did the Web Grip pairs so 99% of the time you'd get paired with the same person and you know where they will run to break web. Rarely it would pair you with someone else and instead of just running in the same direction and breaking at the edge of the room, people would panic and run back under the boss, where the other group just got gripped.
And the main problem: We couldn't really bruteforce these things. We could get a bit lucky on the better players getting dispels and having less chance for a spread, but that was about it in terms of "lucky pulls". Compared to Kyveza where our kill pull had 0 known chimps getting the charges and therefore the boss just kinda fell over with no issues. Because of the Red/Blue instakill mechanic there was always, always the possibilty of a demon hunter pressing fel rush and nuking the team. There was always the chance that our fury warrior turned his brain off and ran the wrong direction. There was always the chance that a healer panicked on web pull and just stood still under the boss and nuked the other group. At every point in the fight there was a chance for one single person to fuck up and just wipe the raid
I like the FFXIV way of "punishing" for fucking up raid mechanics. It's better to have a debufs to your dmg/healing rather than die and wipe your entire raid immediately
30:59 I'm so confused. How are 40% more people getting title? The title range is set at the top 0.1% of players in a season. The only way to increase the amount of players in the 0.1% is to increase the total amount of players, but it sounds like he's saying there's less players because the ones who would have run a '+2' in the past can't run a modern +2, which was a +12.
That means that the number of people in the o.1% is 40% higher. It’s still 0.1% of the whole player population, there’s just more people playing
@TilkoLegend Right, that's exactly what I'd assume, but it didn't sound like what he said.
If they got rid of the depletion system along with depleted crest, I (healing) would more likely to be less picky of classes and io score in LFG. Time is valuable and it feels really bad to waste time with depleted crest and key.
I believe a good starting point would be do one dinar per season that you can upgrade like season 4 and see how it goes. This is a definite if they keep making items like spymaster. (Which they should, it’s fun) but without problems arises
Two dinar slots would be great
The problem with deplete is the rewards. Downgrading key is for me ok but if you stick with the group and complete the key you should get the same crest, right now its a dubble punishment for deplete. This coming from someone that only plays M+
Not having to rely on RNG for trinkets and weapons was great. I’m happy to farm min/max statted gear as a relatively casual player, but waiting for spymasters or gale or skardyn’s is annoying.
This patch really got screwed up by the 12 key delve week and the high crest cap early on, i went from 605 to 619 week 2, then the only path to progress was doing +10 and wait for vault, and +10 was hard for awhile so it was fine, but when +10 became much easier now im just grinding pretty easy content for rng drop once a week to fill out the slots. you get to the "why am i doing this" stage way earlier than usual.
My idea for years now has been
Instead of “homework” keys as they are now, you can help a friend do a lower key. By completing a lower key than you’re currently holding you can upgrade your key to one higher than your max timed.
EXAMPLE: You failed a 12 Mists and it goes to an 11. You help someone else with their 10 Grim Batol. You can upgrade your key back to a 12. If you 2 chest a key, you can upgrade your key by 2. You can never upgrade your key past 1 above your max timed key of dungeon.
You help LFG and you dont have to redo a trash dungeon one level less than the one you failed.
If there is no depletion people will fail upwards and hurt LFG even more!!
I think you should have key depletion protection at certain breakpoints - when youre adding another affix. So a 16 will deplete towards 12, but then will stop at 12. A 9 will deplete down towards a 7. A 6 towards a 4. Etc.
This allows players to continue to practice keys if they're failing them in a similar environment to what they failed at previously. You add both tyran and fort at 10. If you deplete the 10 down to a 9, now it no longer has both affixes on it so its basically a completely different experience and doesnt provide players with a good practice environment for completing the 10 next time. Same goes for players trying to get into 12s. You try a 12, and fail. Now you have an 11 that is going to play literally NOTHING like a 12. It does nothing to really prepare you for completing a 12 in the future.
Having breakpoints when affixes are added allows you to practice more and won't feel nearly as bad when a key is depleted.
If we keep making it easier to gear up faster, we'll eventually be finishing our season in one week and taking breaks for 3 months.
I think if they didn’t tie depletion to a timer it would be better. People don’t get the chance to learn keys or learn a route because they’ll pull a pack that’s a bit too much, wipe, and lose time thus depleting a key. I really think the timer is the source for this feeling of “wasted time” people have with detractors such as walking back and the 15s death penalty. That walk back time could be used to strategize and regroup. With a timer it just encourages people to go fast and not consider what the mobs do. I think it also puts a lot of pressure on tanks to know a route and keep pulling removing the opportunity to experiment (which I think would make tanking fun and less stressful). If people want a timer, add it to the super high keys where they already know the routes and may need the extra challenge.
18:28 Growl asks a great question, if mid-season you could cash in a ticket for a fully BIS alt would that drive you to play the game more? Tettles response... "eh um ah em I don't think it would -> insert unrelated comments to follow".
As a person who doesn't play this game for a living this would be rad! I would love to be able to move from my prot warrior to a disc priest and try healing keys, or a rogue to try something I've never done before. That would be super fun.
Growl tee'd up a great question and it fell flat.
I stopped playing M+ completely for the 1st time since it was released in Legion. Went as far as I can go with my main and now gearing an alt takes way to long.
Ive not started season 1 M+ yet...I just can't bear to pug it and my guild went flat chat out of the blocks so I'm behind. Not complaining I'm just saying I have little reason or desire to do M+ this season. I think I'll learn mistweaver for something to do and then try season 2 and a team to run with. I think I'm done with pugging :(
Been trying to break into 12's since i have all 11's timed ( some +2 even). My experience has been thus: must use own key (no1 is inviting me to thier 12). Spend 20-30 minutes putting group together, 10 minutes later a pull goes awry for whatever reason, group disbands. Now I must spend 40 minutes to an hour pushing my key back up to 12. Time to play for the day is over and i've made zero progress for the day. I don't know if removing key depletion is the right move, but I'd love to try it once. Having to lose hours of time for mistakes that aren't your own is a terrible feeling. Most of the people I used to push keys with just don't anymore. Most of my depletes are tanks who think they're Dorki but are actually Leeroy Jenkins.
If you had max ilvl from being a famous streamer it would be fine
🔥 It’s not like any of this is rocket science. Pretty clear this is the crux of the m+ issue for the majority of players and why they opt out.
I have no idea why they went with it as it currently is, where the jump from 11s to 12s is so fucking huge.
Depletions also mean there is an ever changing range of keys in the group finder which caters for all skill levels. If they never went down after a few weeks there’d be less lower keys in LFG. They just need to make crests the same times or not (within reason ie if you would get score you get crests)
Mana things people from MoP may remember. You get those Klaxxi crystals where you encase yourself in amber and regenerate 100% hp and mana over 10 seconds. You couldn't move however. It was the best in challenge modes way back when.
The fluctuating IO is what solo que has to be. Can only be played solo and if you fail the dungeon you lose io and if you clear it you gain. You would also lose more for incomplete than failing the timmer.
Easy solve. They need to make it so that you can double and triple deplete a key for next season and then when they revert it back to this current system everyone will be super happy with it /s.
Thanks for the great chat as always :)
As someone who mainly does plus 10 keys and never sets foot in mythic raid I have gotten an upgrade from vault every week and still feels good to open half the time I’m only logging in for some casual 10-13 keys and tuesdays to open vault
Kalamazi and quazi have really great videos that really pin down a lot of the issues with this season
I'm mostly happy with Retail. Some of those people complaining just need a break; breaks are healthy and good. I have taken breaks for years at a time. Right now I have a new bis gaming pc and I am thoroughly enjoying TWW.
I think there should be a like UI system for the vault that lets you choose a specific item that has a higher probability of showing up every week in 1 vault slot if it doesn't appear in the previous week(one choice from raid and one choice from m+). Like choose x trinket increase chance of it showing up goes up by 15% so after like 6 weeks if you are insanely unlucky with the prior increase appearance chance you just get it.
So like for m+ this could be any item thats obtainable while for raid, since you can only obtain items from raid from the bosses you've killed so if you want to get spymasters kill silken at least once which unlocks their loot pool and you can just do a 6/8 to fill up vault for it.
What about taking your 6 vault coins and buying two vault re-rolls, 3 each. Trading an entire week of vault progression into two future re-rolls.
m+ is harder than ever before you have to work twice as hard for max ilvl gear and you have to wait twice as long to get it recipe for disaster. you can't give people 1 max ilvl piece a week and expect them to have fun or stick around for 12 fucking weeks. we want gear we can chase not wait for.
1:06:40 why are there so few people listing their own keys right now?
1) laziness, nobody wants to do the effort to form a group
2) key depletion
Let's not pretend that every single meta spec is about to just list their own key once depleting is removed. Don't underestimate laziness
29:33 I also forgot what the hell Growl was talking about. And that's the damage done when you give everyone a "Legendary". Over the course of three expansions, Blizzard trained me to stop caring about the orange text. Blizzard changed what the orange text meant. A powerful item, yes. But one that everyone had and was therefore not special or memorable in anyway. Dragonflight reclaimed SOME of that true Legendary feeling. But the damage wrought by those three expansions persists. Growl said 'Dragonflight Legendaries' and I was try to think of what orange text he was talking about, trying to conjure in my mind that orange text that everyone had in Dragonflight and wasn't special.
Cooking On Key Depletion: Why not apply a similar or the same Rarity system that is present in the crafting system? 2 Chest a +9 key to 11? That is a 2-star 11 Key. This lets you deplete it twice before it goes down to a 10. I feel like it helps the issues at hand somewhat, and still keeps the stakes of timing in the game.
Ok, here's my compromise for deterministic loot. You get a token on weeks 2 6 and 10, but the token is for a raind finer item that can be upgraded to mythic 6/6 but is unaffected by any valorstone or crest discounts.
Key depletion is most important in keys below 12 for people to find where their skill level is. Key depletion doesn't need to exist at the high end. As long as max-vault level boosts exist depletion needs to as well
Aight, so let me cook up something rq
A problem i have with pugging keys is the key holder takes all the risk. What if each person in the group could wager their key alongside the key holder. In doing so, the keys are bonded and if it is depleted, all wagered keys are depleted. The benefit to wagering keys would be: for each ley wagered, you have a reset to attempt the run again.
If the group times the run, all leys are upgraded. Some problems off the top of my head are: this doesnt solve the leaver problem. Somebody could wager their key and still watch the world burn. Also, the wagered keys would have to be the same level, to prevent high key pushers from wagering a +2. However, you could wager lower keys. Idk much of a disadvantage with that one. People would just be raising their key to a level they are already participating in.
Should Depletes Exist in Mythic+??
Short answer - No
Long answer - Noooooooooooo
I want active manage regeneration, like do something to get your mana back - would make it more interesting and give player more control over it compared to "people mess up a pull and then everyone waits until healer has enough mana again". :P
I think m+ would be interesting if each dungeon you completed had its own small progression system. You complete a 2, you can now do up to a 3 for that dungeon. Each dungeon is its own unique queue / grouping. I think for lower tier players, the issue is not only “i am not ready for 10’s” but also “i am yet to see this content above a 2 because nobody wants to do this dungeon” this would also mean if you are joining my 10 you have successfully completed this dungeon at a 9 in the past. Get rid of depletion and add more choice and progress
"If you could log in and play an alt would you to keep playing?"
Yes 100%, but am I going to grind those crests/valorstones absolutely no way in hell.
What are your guys' thoughts on depletion only if the key never gets finished?
Rework it so 1* is simply finishing the key with the timer running out with 2* being timing it. This way you can make it so the key rerolls only if you finish the key, but also stops you from feeling like you're going backwards as long as the key gets finished while getting score even untimed.
They should just replace the -15 second affix with a key deplete affix, that way no key depletes under 7s
Give everyone the legendary currency as a part of your vault and you can select which item to apply it to. By week x (5 or whatever) you are guaranteed to get that item.
Vault is probably fine for mythic raiders.... its shit for M+
Remember when mana management was a thing for healers? You had to choose high HPS but costly or casting low HPS mana efficient heals.
That system was trash that’s why it was only done in cata
@Valvad0ss I liked it, but I get that generation ADHD don't have the attention span for planning ahead for a 4 minute fight, everything has to be fast paced.
How many xpacs was mana management actually a thing though? Not as many as you think
@Bashera46 I dunno, first 4 or so
@@KungKokkos Mana was 100% irrelevant in WOTLK. In TBC it was largely irrelevant once you had heroic dungeon gear mixed with Karazan gear
If you play fighting games where life or death decisions happen in windows of 130-200ms, a 2 sec reaction window sounds chill af.