Very very helpful. Many of the reloading videos don't get into these signs and assume you already know. Illustrating the subtle differences was very good info!
One additional sign to watch for is the extrusion of the primer around the firing pin hole. A ridge around the primer indentation that protrudes from the flattened face of the primer is definitely a sign telling you to reduce your powder charge a bit. Thanks for the video!
A lot of people commenting about this are saying that flattened primers are caused by excessive headspace, and they are correct. But no one has that I have read has taken the time to explain why. So here goes. When a centre fire cartridge is fired there are actually a lot of different things happening, all within a few thousandths of a second. It starts when the firing pin strikes the primer cup. It not only dimples the primer and ignites the primer compound, but pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber, as far as the headspace will allow it to go. When the priming compound explodes. It propels burning gasses through the flash hole to ignite the propellant powder. But it also propels the primer cup violently out the back of the primer pocket, slamming it into the bolt face. The more headspace there is, the farther the primer cup can travel and the more velocity it will achieve before it slams into the bolt face. This causes the flattening of the primer cup and the cupping or cratering seen around the firing pin indentation. When the propellant powder charge ignites, three things happen. First the cartridge casing tries to explode, but the strength of the chamber walls stops this from happening. Second and Third are the projectile being pushed through the barrel, and the cartridge casing trying to be violently expelled out the rear of the chamber. When the casing slams into the bolt face it violently re-seats the primer cup in the primer pocket, further flattening it. I hope you were able to follow all that. What you want to be concerned about is if there is evidence of the brass being extruded into the ejector and or extractor recesses of the bolt face. This does not happen when the casing is slammed into the bolt face upon ignition, it happens while the projectile is traveling through the barrel, if peak pressures exceed the bearing capacity of the cartridge head.
Hello David, I’m the guy that pushed thumbs down. Did it because I think I see a problem with part of your explanation. Figured I would point out my concern to allow you the opportunity to correct my error with a further explanation. Thanks in advance. Here we go, you say “It starts when the firing pin strikes the primer cup. It not only dimples the primer and ignites the primer compound, but pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber,...” It is the “pushes the cartridge forward” part that I’m unsure about. As I see it, when I place a properly sized cartridge in my bolt action rifle I generate a substantial amount of force pushing the cartridge into the chamber and then locking the bolt lugs. The force is more than adequate to force the shoulder of the cartridge against the shoulder of the chamber. Additionally, that force is greater than the force generated by the firing pin, add to that that much of the force generated by the firing pin is absorbed by the dimpling of the primer. All of this is based on the premise that the cartridge is properly sized to the chamber and that the definition of properly size means that the bolt, when closed, does not allow for a gap between the cartridge rim and the bolt face or the cartridge shoulder and the chamber shoulder, and that is not a given.
Thanks for all the information, it was very informative. I have heard of all of these warning signs but it is nice to see it with your own eyes while it is being described. I will watch out for these now.
Very good common sense video and a reasonable starting point for those new to reloading. The importance of having spotlessly clean, uniform brass can't be overstated. A case that is close to the overall maximum length can stretch causing difficult extraction without having excess pressure. Reloading is and artful skill, it's best to take baby steps. I'd never let anyone shoot my reloads in their rifle, they are safe in mine only. That's why we reload, to custom build a round to fit.
An excellent tutorial. I once got excessively hard bolt lift, flattened and cratered primers, and a blown primer with some Barnes X-Bullet loads years ago. It was then that I discovered that the first generation of the X-Bullet (the non-Triple Shock ones without the grooves cut into the shank) can't be safely loaded with the same maximum charge of powder as with conventional bullets. I backed off two grains, and everything was okay again.
A stiff bolt lift is almost always a sign of there being a problem somewhere. I've never dealt with one so it always slips my mind. Under-pressure brass will eject just like normal brass from a bolt action, and probably all other manual action types. Very informative video, you can never be too careful.
Lots of opinions in comments. I suggest those commentators who only load one or 2 cartridges be readers only. I found much of what you said correct. I have loaded 30-06, 25-06, 44 mag, 45 colt, 45 acp 38, 223 , and .22 hornet. The last seemingly being the softest case metal, and the case most likely to have issues. Soon I will be loading the 450 bushmaster. Thank you for your insight.
Here's a big attaboy from me, ammosmith! This was very informative, especially the loose primer pocket test. I'm reloading among other stuff the .35 Remington for my 2 Marlin 336s. Your info will help me make safe loads. Thanx a bunch
Keep a close eye on you headspacing with the round. The shoulder is non-existent on the round, and can easily be bumped back too much. The main issue you may have are misfires. The round will simply be pushed forward and the primer is not engaged. Even though it is a lever action round, neck sizing is the best thing you can do to help yourself out here. Try to do the minimal amount of resizing to the brass that you can to get them to work in the gun. I have had some guns that would not shoot certain brands of brass at all. My long gone contender would not shoot NEW Winchester (W-W) brass. My current 336, has a slightly better chamber, but does not like FL sized brass. I have my sizer turned up one whole turn, to minimize the shoulder contact.
Thanks for the informative video, your kind and gentle manner and the info you gave us. I had some loads that I never really bothered trying to understand. I just looked at the max load in an old Speer book that I had for an Interarms 7x57mm that I've shot for years. Well, I can attest that powders do change. I mean, enough to make a toasty load from days gone by to something that is super excessive. I was using some old IMR 4350 in this thing and had actually worked it up to 50 grains. It was on the edge of "Too Hot". Eventually, I ran out of that powder and bought the new IMR 4350. Well, the newer powder, from the last 2 or 3 years with the same charge has my case heads coming apart. I've got one jammed in there right now that I will have to pour hot lead down the bore to create a plug so I can pull it out. Talk about excessive. I mean, I kept noticing the ring around the brass and how some were cracking along the incipit line you mentioned. I took some of the loads apart this morning, thinking maybe my measure was off. It wasn't. There was 50 grains in each that I disassembled. I was wondering why I was getting 3000 FPS for a 139 grain bullet, near what you'd get with a 280 Remington. Most of the other books show a charge of 48 as max. I'm backing them off to that charge. I'm done chasing the max velocity out of my guns. I'll take the accuracy over the speed any day. Thanks again
An excellent instructional. You've answered many of my lingering questions about excessive pressure and I thank you. One point though from a videographer's perspective, for better detail on small objects it would be a good idea to use a contrasting background color. A sheet of printer paper is all it would take. Not s criticism just a suggestion.
I just read this, but I have the same issue. When I use these primers, almost all of them flatten a bit, whereas Winchesters or something harder are just fine.
2:34 hey ammosmith! Thanks for all you’ve done and do for us. In regards to the two casings in which you describe the webbing, I noticed the extractor groove on the left case is elongated compared to the right case. Is this also a sign of higher pressures?
I had a stiff bolt lift too. Pressure is a strange animal. A cratered but not flattened primer is also a sign of pressure. Once you realize what your rifle does you can start to determine "what" and where the pressure is coming from.
Another good tip is to use an unfolded paper clip with a bend on one end and run it inside fired cases. Should be smoothe and not catch. If it does you have case head separation
Went to a local range a few weeks ago to try out my new Bushmaster carbine. In addition to numerous failures to eject, I noticed three loose primer cups out of the 40 rounds fired. Took it to a friend's place and shot 100 rounds of factory ammo, and had no issues. I'll not be going to that range again.
The paper clip test is where you make a 'hook" and drag it over the inside of the case where the web is. If you 'feel' a dip there is area that is thinning and will eventually cause a separation. The paper clip allows you to inspect the area where you can't see.
you use air gun pressures . a 700ftlb air rifle requires a regulated burst of sub 1000psi , m193 will go +3000fps from a burst of sub 3000psi . Why would you think you get +50,000psi pressures ?
Very nice video, great quality and good safety advise for new reloaders. Have you noticed that most of the new Hornady ammunition is being loaded to hot. I am seeing once fired brass from Hornady with high presure signs on the primers. It seems that they are selling there ammo with "MAX" Fps as a good thing. Again, great presentation. Steve @ BXCustmAmmo.
@trickykwoo2 They are one of several indicators. Flattened primers are a warning sign...two or more signs together means you're above SAAMI spec pressure
@rhikie24 The primer is one indicator but I use two indicators. Also if you're getting pressure signs with the Federal primer use the CCI. Federal primers are soft.
The case looks fine. No signs of pressure, no cracked casings, just black carbon burning around the neck and a little past the shoulder. Would it mean I need more powder to seal the neck or less powder to not have enough back pressure? Recoil is that of a .223.
@rifleshooter5 I see alot of match .308 that has flat primers. Almost all BHA is hotrodded and produces flat primers......no issues with loose pockets thou.
You can also get pressure signs in your primers if using very fine grain size powders. There has been guys test this with known safe, even lighter loads but if a little bit of this fine powder washes into the primer pocket void through the touch hole, the added gas volume in the very confined space will create pressure signatures in the primer cup with an otherwise safe load. Don't dismiss pressure signs as that without close investigation though.
@miravox It's the hot gases igniting in the air. It's very comon with certain types of powder. Even low end loads can seem to boom as much as a maximum load.
Great info. very important to know. thanks. question, is there ever a time where the primer will be lose not to over pressure just old brass? also how many times would a brass be reused?
Good video for beginners in reloading! For some reason people that start reloading will not read a book but will listen to just about anybody with a press for advice. I have seen some unbelievable events at the rifle range. The only part I do not agree with is the case separation. Most of the time the case shown is a matter of reloading too many times and not high pressure.
is the crater around where the firing pin strikes still a sign of overpressure even if the primer still keeps most of it's composure? I've noticed this on my .45's. Also, all my rifles are savages. I think i've figured out how they brag about, "the definition of accuracy". they seem to have less freebore than other rifles, judging by the sugested c.o.a.l's in my manuals, the bullets would be jammed into the lands. Is there a general rule of thumb for the max pressure with different headspacings?
i have a 357 and i had the problem with not bieng able to get some of the rounds out of the chambers that i loaded them into. when i shot them off they would be stuck in there until i forced them out. these where expensive loads that my father bought ." hollow pointed 357 mag rnds. r .p " they where brass jacketed lead bullets with a silver type cast. i sent a foto. any idea or was it maybe a buch of hot rounds.? my dad passed away this week so i cant ask him. thanks good video. mike.
Thanks for the info. I'm reloading 9mm and couldn't find ANY primers anywhere, but finally was able to snatch up some small pistol in magnum. I just put a box together with 0.1gr less than the starting load (147gr FMJ & 3.3gr bullseye) and I'm assuming, hoping, praying my gun won't blow apart.
Wow you are running some very hot loads. Very well presented video and very on point. I am getting ready to toool up to reload and this was a wealth of info nobody else has talked about. If I may ask what is your traininjg? Also I only need a single stage reloader. Can't shoot like I used to due to current pollitical and economical conditions. I want to load but just cannot pick the press. Your opinion is valued. I like the Hornady classic the most but the kit is incomplete.
Why exactly does a bolt become sticky? Does the pressure over expand the cartridge so the bolt is force closed. Or is some charge being forced through the bolt sealing it somehow. I have heard stories of people using a hammer to reopen the bolt after it became sticky.
Ammosmith: My .270 Win handloads show none of the overpressure signs mentioned here. HOWEVER, they repeatedly blew the white, plastic diffusers off of my chrono at a distance of about four feet (immediately after I fired several rounds of factory ammo through it with only a little shake & shimmy). Whaddya think?
Nice Video, but DON'T put bad cases "aside". You may accidentally grab it later and reload it. I flatten them with the tap of a hammer or damage them so they are obviously unusable.
That is how and why my dad taught me. He would crimp the case with pliers to make sure it wasn't used again and then would chuck it into the brass recycle can.
ive never had any signs of insipient case seperation. the primer pockets get loose first, but with a lee collet die i get appox 10 reloads before i have any problems, i can fire 3-4 times before i have to re-trim, and i run on the hotter side of things ;)
It could be like my case several years ago; I just had a little too much headspace. I got a set of stepped shell holders in .002" increments. Either try that or just a different brand of shell holder. Also, check to see if your shellholder has any gunk built up in it. If so, clean it and check it after a few dozen rounds.
What i dont understand is where the extra pressure comes from. The only difference in the cases is that the one is maybe a thousandths taller than the other.Does the 5.56 use a different powder or something? I dont think it has anything to do with the internal volume of the cases because they meter the exact same.
@gilream: good thought -- but why would my modest-velocity hand loads exhibit the muzzle blast when my full-speed factory ammo didn't? I used R-22 powder below manufacturer recommended max, got about 150 fps LESS than factory ammo.
@ammosmith i dont have a tumbler so i use a vinegar solution for 10 mins then throw it in the washing machine for a rinse , not shiny like a tumbler with media but clean none the less
@ammosmith any indications for a single shot rifle? ive stayed about 2 grains below max on all my loads and thats where my rifle shoots most accuratley but my brass has rings around the outside of the case, not cracks just scratches, chamber polish?
Really good video. I have a question some times after shooting P17 30-06 my cases have a black smoky ring at the web of the case,do you any idea what this means? Do my cases have small cracks? Thanks.
Hey Ammosmith, I know you are busy, but if you could answer this question I would really appreciate it. I have made some swaging dies of my own, but they give bullet weights that are irregular from load data. I assume I will have to make my own loads for these calibers. What I plan to do is load with one grain of powder, fire it, check the bore for obstruction, tap the bullet out, load up to 1/4 a grain more, repeat and keep doing this until I see pressure signs. Is there a better way?
I've had primers back out in factory 6.5x55 in a Swedish Mauser, they were not backed out more than .008 of an inch but mushroomed out slightly, being an old round I think that there is not enough pressure for it to rebound back into the case and they are mushrooming on the face of the bolt but I could be wrong just looking for an opinion
It is not required to back off 2 or 3 grains because of a flattened primer. On some cartriges that would be below the min starting charge. You should work up loads in increments of 1/2 grain or less and when you get to a flat primer drop back 1/2 grain.
ammosmith..you may want to mention one more thing that you may have left out. For me the most obvious pressure sign is a shiny mark on the case head. This results when excessive pressure causes the brass to flow into the ejector recess in the bolt face. When you get to this point STOP. Most likely culprit is that you've exceeded the safe limit with your powder.
in addition the primer at the right has a smaal crater like a ''vulcano'' this is usually related to a firing pin that is not lapped correctely to the firing pin hole and the primer start to creep into the opening on the side of the firing pin,, it ''can'' also be a beginning sign of too hig pressure or soft primers, this need to be determined in each individual case,,,
When you say back off one or two grains, do you mean 1/10ths of a grain? I am not failure with rifle rounds. I reload 9mm which only takes 4.3 to 5.0 for the powder and bullets I use. I would never change a whole grain up or down obviously, but 1/10th or two or three sure.... Thanks.
@ammosmith Yeah, I was gonna say. I use winchester primers and even with light loads I still sometimes get flattened primers. Not FLAT, but flattening. I notice that with different brass, it will have higher likelihoods of flattening that others. I also have read online that winchester has pretty soft primers compared to cci's. Any opinions on the matter? These are small pistol in 9mm that I have issues with. But not with rifle calibers..
one of the cases at the begining of the video has a dent on the side. is that from high preasure also? i have about 6 out of 100 that have that dent after firing do you know what causes that?
i didnt load the rounds that im talking about but i took it apart and cleaned and oiled it but it still gets that problem . i switched rnds but i still have the problem all though not as bad as with the "R . D " rounds. any info would be helpfull thanks . love the vids. mike.
One thing I had happen was SUPER high pressure due I think to a case that was too long and crimped the case into the bullet keeping it from being able to move into the BBL and raising pressures to a level I never want to see again. I had to use large channel locks and then a 2 Lb drilling hammer to open the bolt. the primer pocket was huge the primer was gone. I gotta say though it was an old shot out loose Mouser but it didn't hurt me.
Another difference between .223 and 5.56 is in the primers the way I understand it a .223 round loaded in a 5.56 can sometimes discharge from the bolt sliding home when chambering a round due to more sensitive primers.
Your chamber could be slightly different. I think my shell holders are RCBS. Another thing to check would be bullet seating depth into/from the lands. Are you running an AR?
No not really. It depends on the operating pressure and how well the case is constructed. Some brass will last many cycles and others will fizz out after just 5 loadings. I back the pressure off of mine to keep the brass from getting worn out. It also extends the life of the weapon as well.
Good video! I would argue that flattened primers don’t necessarily mean that you’re over pressure in an unsafe way. Nearly all of the full power factory .357 Mag loads I use produce flattened primers. I load most of my handloads much lighter. Perhaps you’re only referring to bottleneck rifle cartridges?
Hi, I reloaded some 30-06 165 grain with IMR 4350... The Lyman book says that with NOSLER Ballistic bullet the starting load is 52.5 which i did and i had some of the primers very flat and the little bump around the brass (the second sign of preassure you showed)... you said to go 5% lower but if this is the starting load??? what should i do??? Thanks!!!!
Very informative, thank you. I've been thinking about getting into reloading and have been looking and reading about it wherever I can find information. Still a long way to go. :) Quick question, though: isn't it a bit risky to tap the primer like that, or to press down on it with a cartridge?
Hey, I gotta question for you. Just yesterday I tested out some 7.62x54r with .32cal pistol bullets. (its the same diameter) and it shoots under 1/2" group at 50 yards. One problem is, its blowing small gas back out the bolt of the M44. Is it because the powder is burning too slow? The powder is the Surplus powder from a 149gr FMJ and I just replaced the bullet with the 100 gr .32cal pistol bullet.
I had a blown primer in my AR from Hornady TAP ammo. I thought something was big time wrong with my rifle since it wouldn't chamber the next round. Till I picked up the brass and could see straight through it...
I have been reloading 3 years and was unsure of the whole excessive pressure sign deal. Great video, now I know what to look for.
Very very helpful. Many of the reloading videos don't get into these signs and assume you already know. Illustrating the subtle differences was very good info!
Thank you for another informative class in you academy of shooting safety and techniques! You are a great teacher!
One additional sign to watch for is the extrusion of the primer around the firing pin hole. A ridge around the primer indentation that protrudes from the flattened face of the primer is definitely a sign telling you to reduce your powder charge a bit. Thanks for the video!
You're absolutely right. When the primer looks cratered it's a bad sign.
You know it's a good video when it's being recommended 14 years after upload
Thank you for another informative class in your academy of shooting safety and techniques! You are a great teacher!
A lot of people commenting about this are saying that flattened primers are caused by excessive headspace, and they are correct. But no one has that I have read has taken the time to explain why. So here goes.
When a centre fire cartridge is fired there are actually a lot of different things happening, all within a few thousandths of a second. It starts when the firing pin strikes the primer cup. It not only dimples the primer and ignites the primer compound, but pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber, as far as the headspace will allow it to go. When the priming compound explodes. It propels burning gasses through the flash hole to ignite the propellant powder. But it also propels the primer cup violently out the back of the primer pocket, slamming it into the bolt face. The more headspace there is, the farther the primer cup can travel and the more velocity it will achieve before it slams into the bolt face. This causes the flattening of the primer cup and the cupping or cratering seen around the firing pin indentation. When the propellant powder charge ignites, three things happen. First the cartridge casing tries to explode, but the strength of the chamber walls stops this from happening. Second and Third are the projectile being pushed through the barrel, and the cartridge casing trying to be violently expelled out the rear of the chamber. When the casing slams into the bolt face it violently re-seats the primer cup in the primer pocket, further flattening it. I hope you were able to follow all that.
What you want to be concerned about is if there is evidence of the brass being extruded into the ejector and or extractor recesses of the bolt face. This does not happen when the casing is slammed into the bolt face upon ignition, it happens while the projectile is traveling through the barrel, if peak pressures exceed the bearing capacity of the cartridge head.
David Oakley Fantastic explanation!
Hello David, I’m the guy that pushed thumbs down. Did it because I think I see a problem with part of your explanation. Figured I would point out my concern to allow you the opportunity to correct my error with a further explanation. Thanks in advance. Here we go, you say “It starts when the firing pin strikes the primer cup. It not only dimples the primer and ignites the primer compound, but pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber,...” It is the “pushes the cartridge forward” part that I’m unsure about. As I see it, when I place a properly sized cartridge in my bolt action rifle I generate a substantial amount of force pushing the cartridge into the chamber and then locking the bolt lugs. The force is more than adequate to force the shoulder of the cartridge against the shoulder of the chamber. Additionally, that force is greater than the force generated by the firing pin, add to that that much of the force generated by the firing pin is absorbed by the dimpling of the primer. All of this is based on the premise that the cartridge is properly sized to the chamber and that the definition of properly size means that the bolt, when closed, does not allow for a gap between the cartridge rim and the bolt face or the cartridge shoulder and the chamber shoulder, and that is not a given.
Thanks for all the information, it was very informative. I have heard of all of these warning signs but it is nice to see it with your own eyes while it is being described. I will watch out for these now.
Very good common sense video and a reasonable starting point for those new to reloading. The importance of having spotlessly clean, uniform brass can't be overstated. A case that is close to the overall maximum length can stretch causing difficult extraction without having excess pressure. Reloading is and artful skill, it's best to take baby steps. I'd never let anyone shoot my reloads in their rifle, they are safe in mine only. That's why we reload, to custom build a round to fit.
An excellent tutorial.
I once got excessively hard bolt lift, flattened and cratered primers, and a blown primer with some Barnes X-Bullet loads years ago.
It was then that I discovered that the first generation of the X-Bullet (the non-Triple Shock ones without the grooves cut into the shank) can't be safely loaded with the same maximum charge of powder as with conventional bullets.
I backed off two grains, and everything was okay again.
I still love to learn more about the gun, I knew about the flat primer, but didn't know it actually made a flange! GOOD JOB, NICE VIDEO!
Flattened primers can also be caused by forcing primers into crimped cases.
Thank you for providing signs of case failure when reloading. I have seen some of the signs in your examples but not all. Eye opening information! 😳
Very useful information on pressure issues and what to look for. Thanks
A stiff bolt lift is almost always a sign of there being a problem somewhere. I've never dealt with one so it always slips my mind. Under-pressure brass will eject just like normal brass from a bolt action, and probably all other manual action types.
Very informative video, you can never be too careful.
Great video for beginners like myself. Thanks for taking time to make this.
Very good and helpful tips here . Thank you for taking the time to make it 🙏🏽
Lots of opinions in comments.
I suggest those commentators who only load one or 2 cartridges be readers only.
I found much of what you said correct.
I have loaded 30-06, 25-06, 44 mag, 45 colt, 45 acp 38, 223 , and .22 hornet. The last seemingly being the softest case metal, and the case most likely to have issues.
Soon I will be loading the 450 bushmaster.
Thank you for your insight.
Here's a big attaboy from me, ammosmith! This was very informative, especially the loose primer pocket test. I'm reloading among other stuff the .35 Remington for my 2 Marlin 336s. Your info will help me make safe loads. Thanx a bunch
Keep a close eye on you headspacing with the round. The shoulder is non-existent on the round, and can easily be bumped back too much. The main issue you may have are misfires. The round will simply be pushed forward and the primer is not engaged. Even though it is a lever action round, neck sizing is the best thing you can do to help yourself out here. Try to do the minimal amount of resizing to the brass that you can to get them to work in the gun.
I have had some guns that would not shoot certain brands of brass at all. My long gone contender would not shoot NEW Winchester (W-W) brass. My current 336, has a slightly better chamber, but does not like FL sized brass. I have my sizer turned up one whole turn, to minimize the shoulder contact.
Thanks for the informative video, your kind and gentle manner and the info you gave us. I had some loads that I never really bothered trying to understand. I just looked at the max load in an old Speer book that I had for an Interarms 7x57mm that I've shot for years. Well, I can attest that powders do change. I mean, enough to make a toasty load from days gone by to something that is super excessive. I was using some old IMR 4350 in this thing and had actually worked it up to 50 grains. It was on the edge of "Too Hot". Eventually, I ran out of that powder and bought the new IMR 4350. Well, the newer powder, from the last 2 or 3 years with the same charge has my case heads coming apart. I've got one jammed in there right now that I will have to pour hot lead down the bore to create a plug so I can pull it out. Talk about excessive. I mean, I kept noticing the ring around the brass and how some were cracking along the incipit line you mentioned. I took some of the loads apart this morning, thinking maybe my measure was off. It wasn't. There was 50 grains in each that I disassembled. I was wondering why I was getting 3000 FPS for a 139 grain bullet, near what you'd get with a 280 Remington. Most of the other books show a charge of 48 as max. I'm backing them off to that charge. I'm done chasing the max velocity out of my guns. I'll take the accuracy over the speed any day. Thanks again
An excellent instructional. You've answered many of my lingering questions about excessive pressure and I thank you. One point though from a videographer's perspective, for better detail on small objects it would be a good idea to use a contrasting background color. A sheet of printer paper is all it would take. Not s criticism just a suggestion.
Saving video. Good info. I’ve been reloading almost a year now. I know picking 2020 to start reloading was a bad idea.
I just read this, but I have the same issue. When I use these primers, almost all of them flatten a bit, whereas Winchesters or something harder are just fine.
Great video l will note these points down being new to reloading l need a person like u that knows what they are doing thanks
2:34 hey ammosmith! Thanks for all you’ve done and do for us. In regards to the two casings in which you describe the webbing, I noticed the extractor groove on the left case is elongated compared to the right case. Is this also a sign of higher pressures?
Yes. The dent will iron out partially in resizing and when it's fored it will fore form out all together.
Ammosmith Thanks for sharing your experience.
I had a stiff bolt lift too. Pressure is a strange animal. A cratered but not flattened primer is also a sign of pressure. Once you realize what your rifle does you can start to determine "what" and where the pressure is coming from.
Another good tip is to use an unfolded paper clip with a bend on one end and run it inside fired cases. Should be smoothe and not catch. If it does you have case head separation
Another good one.
Went to a local range a few weeks ago to try out my new Bushmaster carbine. In addition to numerous failures to eject, I noticed three loose primer cups out of the 40 rounds fired. Took it to a friend's place and shot 100 rounds of factory ammo, and had no issues. I'll not be going to that range again.
The paper clip test is where you make a 'hook" and drag it over the inside of the case where the web is. If you 'feel' a dip there is area that is thinning and will eventually cause a separation. The paper clip allows you to inspect the area where you can't see.
New to reloading and this was AWESOME INFO
It usually happens when the case over expands and seizes the bolt. In extreme cases it can crack the locking lugs.
you use air gun pressures . a 700ftlb air rifle requires a regulated burst of sub 1000psi , m193 will go +3000fps from a burst of sub 3000psi .
Why would you think you get +50,000psi pressures ?
Very nice video, great quality and good safety advise for new reloaders. Have you noticed that most of the new Hornady ammunition is being loaded to hot. I am seeing once fired brass from Hornady with high presure signs on the primers. It seems that they are selling there ammo with "MAX" Fps as a good thing. Again, great presentation.
Steve @ BXCustmAmmo.
@trickykwoo2 They are one of several indicators. Flattened primers are a warning sign...two or more signs together means you're above SAAMI spec pressure
@rhikie24 The primer is one indicator but I use two indicators. Also if you're getting pressure signs with the Federal primer use the CCI. Federal primers are soft.
Excellent video. Very well done, sir.
What does insipid case separation look like in a belted magnum?
Excellent presentation thank you. I learned a lot.
The case looks fine. No signs of pressure, no cracked casings, just black carbon burning around the neck and a little past the shoulder. Would it mean I need more powder to seal the neck or less powder to not have enough back pressure? Recoil is that of a .223.
@rifleshooter5 I see alot of match .308 that has flat primers. Almost all BHA is hotrodded and produces flat primers......no issues with loose pockets thou.
You can also get pressure signs in your primers if using very fine grain size powders. There has been guys test this with known safe, even lighter loads but if a little bit of this fine powder washes into the primer pocket void through the touch hole, the added gas volume in the very confined space will create pressure signatures in the primer cup with an otherwise safe load. Don't dismiss pressure signs as that without close investigation though.
@miravox It's the hot gases igniting in the air. It's very comon with certain types of powder. Even low end loads can seem to boom as much as a maximum load.
Great info. very important to know. thanks. question, is there ever a time where the primer will be lose not to over pressure just old brass? also how many times would a brass be reused?
Good video for beginners in reloading! For some reason people that start reloading will not read a book but will listen to just about anybody with a press for advice. I have seen some unbelievable events at the rifle range. The only part I do not agree with is the case separation. Most of the time the case shown is a matter of reloading too many times and not high pressure.
being brass displays work hardening properties should you anneal your brass before reloading
is the crater around where the firing pin strikes still a sign of overpressure even if the primer still keeps most of it's composure? I've noticed this on my .45's. Also, all my rifles are savages. I think i've figured out how they brag about, "the definition of accuracy". they seem to have less freebore than other rifles, judging by the sugested c.o.a.l's in my manuals, the bullets would be jammed into the lands. Is there a general rule of thumb for the max pressure with different headspacings?
i have a 357 and i had the problem with not bieng able to get some of the rounds out of the chambers that i loaded them into. when i shot them off they would be stuck in there until i forced them out. these where expensive loads that my father bought ." hollow pointed 357 mag rnds. r .p " they where brass jacketed lead bullets with a silver type cast. i sent a foto. any idea or was it maybe a buch of hot rounds.? my dad passed away this week so i cant ask him. thanks good video. mike.
Thanks for the info. I'm reloading 9mm and couldn't find ANY primers anywhere, but finally was able to snatch up some small pistol in magnum. I just put a box together with 0.1gr less than the starting load (147gr FMJ & 3.3gr bullseye) and I'm assuming, hoping, praying my gun won't blow apart.
@rifleshooter5 They should be fine. Just watch out for oversized primer pockets.
A good quick review. Thank you.
Increase the charge by .5grs at a time. Once you start to see signs of pressure back off about.5 grs and you have your maximum load.
yes. The case isn't expanding enough to seal the chamber. Are there any cracks in the case or any primers being punctured?
Wow you are running some very hot loads. Very well presented video and very on point. I am getting ready to toool up to reload and this was a wealth of info nobody else has talked about. If I may ask what is your traininjg?
Also I only need a single stage reloader. Can't shoot like I used to due to current pollitical and economical conditions.
I want to load but just cannot pick the press. Your opinion is valued. I like the Hornady classic the most but the kit is incomplete.
Why exactly does a bolt become sticky? Does the pressure over expand the cartridge so the bolt is force closed. Or is some charge being forced through the bolt sealing it somehow. I have heard stories of people using a hammer to reopen the bolt after it became sticky.
Ammosmith: My .270 Win handloads show none of the overpressure signs mentioned here. HOWEVER, they repeatedly blew the white, plastic diffusers off of my chrono at a distance of about four feet (immediately after I fired several rounds of factory ammo through it with only a little shake & shimmy). Whaddya think?
Nice Video, but DON'T put bad cases "aside".
You may accidentally grab it later and reload it.
I flatten them with the tap of a hammer or damage them so they are obviously unusable.
That is how and why my dad taught me. He would crimp the case with pliers to make sure it wasn't used again and then would chuck it into the brass recycle can.
ive never had any signs of insipient case seperation. the primer pockets get loose first, but with a lee collet die i get appox 10 reloads before i have any problems, i can fire 3-4 times before i have to re-trim, and i run on the hotter side of things ;)
It could be like my case several years ago; I just had a little too much headspace. I got a set of stepped shell holders in .002" increments. Either try that or just a different brand of shell holder. Also, check to see if your shellholder has any gunk built up in it. If so, clean it and check it after a few dozen rounds.
What kind of primer? Was it a MilSpec primer like a CCI#41 for a Wolf 556/223 primer?
Excellent video! Thanks
What i dont understand is where the extra pressure comes from. The only difference in the cases is that the one is maybe a thousandths taller than the other.Does the 5.56 use a different powder or something? I dont think it has anything to do with the internal volume of the cases because they meter the exact same.
How much has the case stretched compared to a standard load? There are many indicators and these are just a few of them.
@gilream: good thought -- but why would my modest-velocity hand loads exhibit the muzzle blast when my full-speed factory ammo didn't? I used R-22 powder below manufacturer recommended max, got about 150 fps LESS than factory ammo.
@ammosmith i dont have a tumbler so i use a vinegar solution for 10 mins then throw it in the washing machine for a rinse , not shiny like a tumbler with media but clean none the less
Were the factory and handload chrony numbers similar to each other? Could be different powder burn rate and more muzzle blast like ammosmith said.
Thanks for the lesson.
Good info, thanks for taking the time.
I haven't shot any Hornady factory ammo. The Federal 150gr FMJ in 308 is a bit warm.
@ammosmith any indications for a single shot rifle? ive stayed about 2 grains below max on all my loads and thats where my rifle shoots most accuratley but my brass has rings around the outside of the case, not cracks just scratches, chamber polish?
Really good video. I have a question some times after shooting P17 30-06 my cases have a black smoky ring at the web of the case,do you any idea what this means? Do my cases have small cracks? Thanks.
Excellent video!
Hey Ammosmith, I know you are busy, but if you could answer this question I would really appreciate it. I have made some swaging dies of my own, but they give bullet weights that are irregular from load data. I assume I will have to make my own loads for these calibers.
What I plan to do is load with one grain of powder, fire it, check the bore for obstruction, tap the bullet out, load up to 1/4 a grain more, repeat and keep doing this until I see pressure signs. Is there a better way?
I've had primers back out in factory 6.5x55 in a Swedish Mauser, they were not backed out more than .008 of an inch but mushroomed out slightly, being an old round I think that there is not enough pressure for it to rebound back into the case and they are mushrooming on the face of the bolt but I could be wrong just looking for an opinion
@eddieloewen That's a oil dent from sizing.
It is not required to back off 2 or 3 grains because of a flattened primer. On some cartriges that would be below the min starting charge. You should work up loads in increments of 1/2 grain or less and when you get to a flat primer drop back 1/2 grain.
@xacharon No. What I did puts far less stress on the primer than the cartridge being battered in a semi automatic.
@miravox ...perhaps your chronograph is too close. 4 feet does no sound like it's far enough away.
ammosmith..you may want to mention one more thing that you may have left out. For me the most obvious pressure sign is a shiny mark on the case head. This results when excessive pressure causes the brass to flow into the ejector recess in the bolt face. When you get to this point STOP. Most likely culprit is that you've exceeded the safe limit with your powder.
in addition the primer at the right has a smaal crater like a ''vulcano'' this is usually related to a firing pin that is not lapped correctely to the firing pin hole and the primer start to creep into the opening on the side of the firing pin,, it ''can'' also be a beginning sign of too hig pressure or soft primers, this need to be determined in each individual case,,,
When you say back off one or two grains, do you mean 1/10ths of a grain? I am not failure with rifle rounds. I reload 9mm which only takes 4.3 to 5.0 for the powder and bullets I use. I would never change a whole grain up or down obviously, but 1/10th or two or three sure.... Thanks.
@ammosmith Yeah, I was gonna say. I use winchester primers and even with light loads I still sometimes get flattened primers. Not FLAT, but flattening. I notice that with different brass, it will have higher likelihoods of flattening that others. I also have read online that winchester has pretty soft primers compared to cci's. Any opinions on the matter? These are small pistol in 9mm that I have issues with. But not with rifle calibers..
one of the cases at the begining of the video has a dent on the side. is that from high preasure also? i have about 6 out of 100 that have that dent after firing do you know what causes that?
i didnt load the rounds that im talking about but i took it apart and cleaned and oiled it but it still gets that problem . i switched rnds but i still have the problem all though not as bad as with the "R . D " rounds. any info would be helpfull thanks . love the vids. mike.
very nice job. thanks for the info
One thing I had happen was SUPER high pressure due I think to a case that was too long and crimped the case into the bullet keeping it from being able to move into the BBL and raising pressures to a level I never want to see again. I had to use large channel locks and then a 2 Lb drilling hammer to open the bolt. the primer pocket was huge the primer was gone. I gotta say though it was an old shot out loose Mouser but it didn't hurt me.
That can happen. Everything about a cartridge from the primer choice, powder charge etc affects pressure.
Another difference between .223 and 5.56 is in the primers the way I understand it a .223 round loaded in a 5.56 can sometimes discharge from the bolt sliding home when chambering a round due to more sensitive primers.
Your chamber could be slightly different. I think my shell holders are RCBS. Another thing to check would be bullet seating depth into/from the lands. Are you running an AR?
No not really. It depends on the operating pressure and how well the case is constructed. Some brass will last many cycles and others will fizz out after just 5 loadings. I back the pressure off of mine to keep the brass from getting worn out. It also extends the life of the weapon as well.
Good video! I would argue that flattened primers don’t necessarily mean that you’re over pressure in an unsafe way. Nearly all of the full power factory .357 Mag loads I use produce flattened primers. I load most of my handloads much lighter. Perhaps you’re only referring to bottleneck rifle cartridges?
They are just one indicator. Bright marks on the head, the web of the case and difficult extraction are all indicators.
Hi,
I reloaded some 30-06 165 grain with IMR 4350... The Lyman book says that with NOSLER Ballistic bullet the starting load is 52.5 which i did and i had some of the primers very flat and the little bump around the brass (the second sign of preassure you showed)... you said to go 5% lower but if this is the starting load??? what should i do???
Thanks!!!!
Great video, thanks for the pointers
Very informative, thank you. I've been thinking about getting into reloading and have been looking and reading about it wherever I can find information. Still a long way to go. :) Quick question, though: isn't it a bit risky to tap the primer like that, or to press down on it with a cartridge?
Hey, I gotta question for you. Just yesterday I tested out some 7.62x54r with .32cal pistol bullets. (its the same diameter) and it shoots under 1/2" group at 50 yards. One problem is, its blowing small gas back out the bolt of the M44. Is it because the powder is burning too slow? The powder is the Surplus powder from a 149gr FMJ and I just replaced the bullet with the 100 gr .32cal pistol bullet.
Excellent. Thanks for posting.
Any chance you could reload this video in a higher resolution? Thanks.
too much head space can result in flanged/flat primers. I aggree with your vid just wanted to add this fact :-)
Very good info. Thanks
Nice macro camera work! Thanks on the info as well!
I had a blown primer in my AR from Hornady TAP ammo. I thought something was big time wrong with my rifle since it wouldn't chamber the next round. Till I picked up the brass and could see straight through it...