Black Necks
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- Опубліковано 18 січ 2024
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Channel Rules:
Here on 4AW we try to answer/acknowledge/thank all the comments, thank you.
That said, not all are equal, Supporters (financial) and Customers get preferential treatment, go figure!
Supporters/Customers: we try to answer all questions that are applicable to videos and will even offer links to help answer questions if appropriate to the channel
We would still ask you do as much searching on the channel as you can as our time is limited.
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Clarity, physics, logic, why weren't you teaching at my school?! Well done Mark, another gem!
Lol, thanks man, Cheers
I’ve been paying attention and watching this through dozens of rifles over two decades and I can tell you he is completely spot on and correct without a doubt. Well done Mark.
Thanks Man, Cheers
This, in my opinion, is your best explanation on such matters. I always wondered about that carbon ring. Thanks Mark.
Thanks John, glad you liked, Cheers
As usual, you are a fucking legend, mate. Solid, concise, and informative.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Just found your channel. I'm very impressed with it. I've been a reloader for years and never give any of this any thought. Thanks for making it clear.
Thanks Danny, Cheers
Thanks Mark and Sam. I’m not a shooter, never owned a gun, but I really enjoy your videos and have shared them with several mates. Big thumbs up👍👍👍👍
Cheers man, thanks
I had an unusual issue with a 6.5x284. It was at the end of it's life at 1200 rounds. Cases were indicating low pressure (soot all the way to the rim) and high pressure (stiff bolt and shinny ejector swipe) at the same time. My theory is the very worn throat was not allowing pressure to build up until the bullet traveled a few inches then the bullet stopped until rapidly building pressure got it moving again. I've never seen that before or since and I've been reloading 50 years. Replaced the barrel with no further issues.
Thanks Man
Yes, I had a very old 30-30 passed down to me and a normal 42k psi load would blacken but a 165gr Hornady boat tail with a stiff load of 4198 would not (the same load I used in my Contender). Incredibly it was very accurate. Annealing is also imperative.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
I’m sure it will help others .
Funny you did this video just a week after I was trying to explain to a fellow shooter at my club. Will forward it to him as you explained it in greater detail. 👍👍 His issue is he might be over sizing the shoulder bump a bit too much as the carbon burn is also down the sides of the case.
Cheers Man, thanks
Thanks again, Mark. I always find your talks interesting and informative. Much appreciated.
Thanks David
Thank you Mark, I’ve been having this issue for a while, particularly with ADI brass even after I’ve annealed it. It seems to be a very fine line between dirty necks and clean but with signs of pressure. Your video has really given me something to work with, thanks so much.
Thanks Man
Thanks for the new video brother. I've been watching for almost a decade now. I show this channel to all my shooting friends. We love your content.
Thank you, all our best man, Cheers
@markandsamafterwork you're welcome. You two have taught me so much throughout the years. I always show your videos to people who say certain rounds can only go so far.
Amazing stuff, Mark, as always. Thank you.
Cheers Man, thanks
You explain this very well. Excellent.
Thanks Rob
Always good information. Succinct and to the point. Thank you.
Thanks Man
Wow. That was excellent. Lucid, well executed and overall great presentation. Thank you! Having been a hand loader for almost forty years I have experienced this condition in most “cases” (pun intended) you describe! Your newest subscriber, Vince
Thank you Vince, Cheers
What I've noticed with my brass is more carbon present when using double-base powders, especially ball powders. So two ways to get around this is to use single base powders or nickel-plated brass. Besides that, everything was spot on. Great info!
Cheers
Half way through watching and had flash backs to ''The Curiosity Show'', great explanations mate.
Lol, Cheers Greg, thanks
Thanks for sharing Mark.Enjoyed
Awesome, Cheers
I saw the title for this yesterday and just got back from the range this morning. I noticed my brass was black around the neck on my new .308 AR10. I made a cup of coffee and had to watch this, and I feel better now. 😂
Lol, Cheers man
Hmm. Makes sense when you explain it. Information received.
Thanks for doing what you do.
Cheers Thom, thanks
Thanks Mark .
Working up loads with 2206H 100gr 6.5SE load, I had a lot of carbon on the mid pressure loads . Its good to know why .
Thanks Paul
Completely makes sense to me. I see the carbon discoloration on the necks of my 300 Weatherby much more than I do with my tight-chambered 270WSM. The Weatherby has some freebore in the throat where the WSM is usually right on the lands, depending on bullet I'm using. Great video, as always!
Thanks Man
Good all round info. Just reloading my 6.5 Creedmore. A new perspective on what to look for to be consistent. Thank you.
Thanks Peter
Another excellent explanation Mark.. Thanks. I've hand loaded everything for two barrels in my 6.5 X 47L. Last summer I purchased factory Lapua ammunition for the first time ever for this caliber. The fired rounds came out perfectly clean at the neck! Which I scratched my head over. Im guessing the factory stuff was crimped. It grouped very very well but was almost 100 fps slower than my handholds with the same bullet. So I have lowered velocity in my handholds and they group amazingly!
Thanks Man
Here for this education! Great info as always 🤝
Thanks man
Great explanation of the issues and reasons for sooty necks. My 6mm REM Ruger No1 always gives slightly discoloured necks. I use full charges of RL22 which is on the slow side but with 100gr bullets I get half MOA groups so I’m not too worried about the neck colouration issue.
Thanks Paul, Cheers
Thanks Mark. Good stuff.
Thanks Jack
Great bit of information…especially the relation to crimping and case fill.
Thanks Bob
Great Explanation Mark Thank You 😀😊 😊👍🏼
Thanks Chris
I run a lot of lower pressure, AA5744, in 45/70 and they soot up pretty good. If I switch to Unique it’s such a fast burner I don’t have any soot at all. Great info session as always thank you!
Thanks Man
Fantastic buddy, Makes great sense😎
Thanks Bill
Thank you. Knowledge is a good thing.
Thanks Man
Very well explained Mark. Personally I never experienced this phenomenon much when I was shooting, but then I was using the notoriously high pressure.45 ACP! Seriously though, speed of initial pressure rise, neck tension, even things like bullet inertia will affect all of this, as you explained. Thanks for another good video!
Thanks Geoff, Cheers
Relevance as usual Mark thx!
Cheers Man
Excellent content, thank you!
Thanks Shane
Thanks for sharing this information. 👍🇺🇸
Thanks Dwayne
Great content thanks for sharing. Very informative
Thanks John
Great video, very informative, thanks!
Cheers
Very Clear. Thanks Mark
Cheers
I've had overly sooty cases from using powder that's too slow. For example, I once loaded 55gr FMJBT in the 5.56 NATO using VitaVouri N135 powder. The load was as compressed as I could make it and they were heavily crimped. I had soot all the way down the side of the case onto the case head and covering the primer on some cases. I knew after firing a few this wasn't acceptable and I couldn't keep shooting them but here's the interesting part. The load was superbly accurate and the ES was pretty good. My velocities were around 3050 fps out of a 16.5" carbine. Thanks for covering this topic, I haven't heard it discussed in this detail before.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Great stuff as always👍👍👍
Thanks Jeremy
I have experienced the gas 'blow by' to discolor brass. I long ago figured out it was 'blow by' doing the effect. However, I didn't realize the lower beginning of the powder charge the effect happens. Good information and good video.
Slower powders are more prone. I prefer slower powders in my rifles to accommodate heavier bullets. I can live with more careful cleaning. I do anneal rifle brass every five firings or so.
Thanks for the real information.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Thanks Mark. YT did a survey question on if this was a good recommendation for me.
Awesome, Cheers Charles
Thanks Mark great explanation. As this residue is more like soot than baked on carbon, what I have been utilizing is a very small amount from a product known as Ballistol oil spray on a rag/tissue and then I just rotate the neck onto the rag, usually only requires one or 2 turns of the case; no scrubbing and necks come out spotless.
Yes, for normal amounts, same here, Cheers
Auto spell check gets me every time, LoL I edited my post the product I utilize is Ballistol not Ballistic.@@markandsamafterwork
👍
Always interesting to listen to you. In my early days of shooting this info was hard to find.
Thanks Man
Hi mark thanks again for your time and wisdom great video,very well explained as always mate,I’ve had similar signs with my 6mm ppc USA under loading by 1.5 grains to save components etc shows signs of soot at the case neck.hope Sam and yourself are well great job guys
Regards Dave 👍
Thanks Dave, Cheers Man
A great explanation and details. Perhaps worth mentioning that perfect seals around the bullet and cartridge are impractical otherwise it would be impossible to load and unload the gun, let alone fire a bullet along the barrel. There will always be some small gap where high pressure gas will blow by.
Thanks Man
I didn't think that it was a problem, but,thanks for the video explaining what actually happens, interesting to know
Cheers
Great lesson man. Thx M&S 🇺🇸
Cheers Tate, thanks
Yep! I agree as to crimp versus non crimp, I had an issue and realized it was also head space and slight carbon buildup on an old 30-06. My brother borrowed my rifle and when I got it back was when I first noticed it but he also ruined rifles crown because rifle never shot the same. I went from a sub MOA to bullets all over the place.
Lol, thanks Man, Cheers
GREAT VIDEO MARK ... !!!!!! WELL EXPLAINED ... !!!!!! DOUBLE G. !!!!
Thanks Gary
Stop shouting Gary..😂
I agree Mark. For peoples info, I believe you need to remove this black soot (Carbon), off your cases, prior to resizing these cases. The reason I suggest this is, this Carbon (on your cases) is actually harder than your steel of your reloading die, so it can actually scratch the inside of your resizing die. So, how do I remove this carbon? I wipe it off with a clean rag, or if there is a lot of carbon, as you suggested, I also use a well used/worn 3M Scotch Brite pad, that I have on my reloading bench. Hope that helps. JB
Thanks John, Cheers
Thank You for sharing. I wasn’t aware of this or how gun powder worked
Thanks Man
Thanks for the lesson!
Cheers
Good stuff to think about! Thanks!
Thanks John
Nice video, thanks bro.!
Thanks Man
Well done explanation!
Cheers man, thanks
Good description.
Thanks Man
I have brass that I use that I got from my dad after he used it for about 25 years and I've had it for probably the last 20 years the cals are 270 and 22-250 most of it is Remington and some win
Thanks Man
I noticed this on my new 7mm PRC with the 175 gr ELD-X. All 18 rounds so far.
Thanks Ian, Cheers
I have had low pressure cause gas to move past the bolt and spit in my face. The answers are as you mentioned increase pressure and or soften the brass by annealing it. Driving pressure up can be done by crimping, by raising the charge and by reducing case capacity via use of fillers. Fillers also keep charge pushed against the powder.
Thanks Man
Thanks for the information
Cheers
I couldn’t find any videos to address this problem. Purchased a new rifle recently and it seems to be a lot of carbon on the neck and some on shoulders. This video will presents a lot more options to help reduce this issue. Thanks for info.
Awesome, thanks Charles
Add a suppressor to a semi-auto, and it is all painted black. Gratuitous song reference.
Another concise, well explained video. Thank you.
Thanks Digger
With piston + flow through can I get still glossy brass.
I have also seen a reduction in carbon on necks when using hotter primers. Makes sense that the extra pressure early on would cause quicker chamber sealing.
Yep, thanks man
Not to knock your statement of gas getting in front of the bullet as shown in your high speed video. I’ve found it also to be common, and especially with surplus guns, to have the rifling eroded at the muzzle. I suppose this is the result of repeated cleanings, sawing with a steel rod, from the muzzle. This is easily found with gauge pins, and remedied by moving the muzzle back the distance of the length in the wobble of the gauge pin and recrowning.
I brought this up, as I suspect it may also be a factor in the gas getting ahead of the bullet, in your high speed video.
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers
Crown has a big effect on accuracy, but no effect on the necks an little to no effect on gas getting in front of the bullet, but yes that is a way to fix a poor crown, Cheers
Yes, I do see more on low powered loads. I do very light loads for practice and harvesting live stock. 30/06 at ≈1,000 fps with 110 grain cast bullets.
Thanks Paul
Thank you
Cheers
always wondered why this occurred, thanks!
Cheers
Interesting. Thank You. I tell people to always save brass, whether they reload or not. Cases tell a story. An example would be, someone tells me they're getting misfires. I ask, " do you have a fired case"? "Noooo". You try to help.
Thanks Rob
@@markandsamafterwork Very interesting information. I learned some things. Thanks again.
👍
Great material. 👍 I'm just starting my adventure with ammo reloading.
Pozdrawiam z Polski 🇵🇱
Thanks Adam
All of my 308 subsonic loads come out looking like that. It worried me a little bit. Thanks for explaining the reasons.
Cheers Man
I like to use H4895 for reduced recoil loads in my 300 Weatherby. I can plink all day long using that power and 150-grain bullets, but if I go too low, the necks will not seal, and soot will blow back all the way to the belt. If the soot is too thick, it can be difficult, if not impossible, to remove. It seems to impregnate the brass.
Thanks John, Cheers
Video came at the perfect time. Been having this with my 7mm-08 and wondering what was going on and how much of a problem it was.
Thanks Man, Cheers
With a 300PRC w/N570 I got good performance but horrible soot - H1K, retumbo, N565 were all good. But in a 300NM w/same powder/primer my barrel/chamber were nicely clean.
Will be in one or more of these details Paul, Cheers
I get this constantly with most factory ammo on my favorite hunting rifle , 7mm rm from weatherby . But it’s a shooter so I ain’t messing with it
Cheers
I was actually thinking of my Mosin doing this before I saw the shot clip. I take notice on the 147 grain and 174 grain surplus military loads.
Lol, Cheers Ron, thanks man
When I get that, it is usually time to anneal or look at increasing the neck tension.
Thanks Man
My custom built falling block chambered in 223 does this with 4198 but still has produced some five shot groups in the .2’s 3’s and will average 1/2 inch 100 yard groups, so while informative it’s not a big deal.
Cheers
Next Mark will give us rhe rundown on red necks😂
Lol, Cheers
Hi Mark, I fired and resized 5 times and scrapped the brass, didn't want to experience case separation. Didn't know you could anneal the brass, thanks for the info.
Cheers Will
I use a straightened paper clip with a 1/8" bend (L) on the end and run it into the case to see if the case is thinning above the base!
I've gone over 20 reloads on Lapua for F class competition by annealing. Use paper clip method below or bore scope to inspect.
I always see this kind of blow-by in my hand-loaded 45 Colt cartridges. They have usually very little propellant in them (originally a black powder cartridge) and almost the entire case is black after firing.
Yep, Cheers Man
Great video Mark, very informative. Are some calibres worse for this than other's? I am getting this on my .243. I will look at my loads and also try crimping as you have suggested and see if that helps. Cheers.
All can have this issue, otherwise all explained, Cheers
Thanks Mark & Sam.
Could I ask if you have discussed bullet jump / gap to the lands? Is this a somewhat standard you use with your loads?
Love your channel.
🤟☮️🇦🇺😎👍 Joel
Yes, all on the channel, Cheers
Have never understood where that carbon comes from. Thanks for the informative vid
Cheers Man
Have a little short barreled savage 110, chambered in 7mm-08 .
This particular rifle has done this since day 1 .
Does it with factory , and hand loaded rounds, seems like it likes certain brass better than others?
The little rifle shoots excellent, so never let it concern me much, just clean it up and move on.
Thanks Man
At 3:50 the flame in front of the bullet is unburnt powder igniting. The air/fuel ratio is correct for combustion.
Cheers
I have done a bit of machining in my life time,
Basically I would say your skirting the main problem
If gasses are escaping back at the neck of the brass,
Then I would say that the chamber of the barrel was made a little on the lose side
But who am I to say, since i'm no exert gun machinist
But when brass comes out clean,
I would be pointing my finger at the chamber.
Nope, maybe watch the video, all explained, Cheers
I'm running at the upper limit of pressure, and I still get this black on the neck 223 rem 80gr sierra matchking with 24.5gr varget cci br4 primer lapua brass
As said, more than just a pressure issue, Cheers
Thank you, I was wondering why my 1919 Model 96, 6.5 Swede was doing that, when I changed powders it wasn't as bad, I thought it was too much pressure, I was wrong...... now I know.
Thanks Man
Great information Mark. Speaking of ammo, do you happen to have a favorite load for the 50BMG?
Thanks Dave, Cheers
I got the black neck for my 6.5 Creedmoor. My charge is in the low side of 40.1 grains H 4350.
Thanks Paul
I get that with my 338 Lapua with Retumbo,Thanks
Thanks Terrance
I see powder marks up past the neck and shoulder with my semi precision rifles as well. Still hunting down cause/cost.
Cheers
Hi, Mark and thanx , I now understand why I also suffer of blackened case neck,uh... matter of fact I never crimp my reloaded ammo, so I guess this must be most of the problem, which, in my opinion ignites another problem about the crimping torque.. in order to have it even, is there any DYNO that you can screw on the press shaft.. ? I think it were no bad idea to have one.. hi
Lots of options other than crimping, but as said, if all good otherwise, a little cleaning is not a concern, Cheers
Allways new about them but no body could explain it Now that I lnow wont worry me either
Cheers
Black necks like that are likely to be normal if you have a POF armory chamber. Those chambers use gas to help eject the casing.
Cheers
Mark we gotta work on that opener. You had a flyer on target. Just kidding. More good information from you.
Lol, Cheers man
Is it possible to not resize your brass and just fire form it? If you are using it in the same chamber. Would that solve seal problems without compromising accuracy without causing stuck cases? Would that also possibly reduce the need for annealing the brass since it would be worked less?
You still need to neck size, so not much in it, Cheers
So would a faster power be the obvious 1st solution to this.
Use N555 and been considering N550 on my 6.5 creedmoor .
Sometimes, but all things are relevant