Do Normal Weapons Work Normally In Space?
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- Опубліковано 6 лис 2023
- Welcome to another episode of Trailmakers! Today I want to put all of the projectile weapons to the test in space to see if they function the way you would expect them to function in a space environment with no gravity or atmosphere. Will there be bullet drop? Will they travel straight forever? Will they maintain conservation of momentum at high speeds? Let's find out!
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In the toughest motoring expedition in the universe, you and your friends will build your own vehicles to cross a dangerous wasteland. Explore, crash horribly, use your wits to build a better rig, and get as far as you can with whatever spare parts you find on your way.
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Learn more about the game on www.playtrailmakers.com #scrapman #trailmakers - Ігри
Gun powder does not need oxygen to work.
Like most propellants and explosives, black power contains all the components it needs.
Specifically, potassium nitrate KNO³ is 3 parts oxygen (O³) and when burning or decomposing it releases that oxygen and happens to be a key component in black powder.
So, as long as you have a means to ignite the black powder (easy to do even without an oxygen burning flame) and it's not too wet it will work.
That's why torpedos explode under water
@@luismlc89 umm, black powder isn't used in torpedoes...
I don't believe black powder is used for ANY current in service military weapon.
Heck, even terrorists and common criminals have access to better things than black powder.
Black powder is primarily used only for historic weapons and fireworks.
While it's true that black powder has everything it needs to combust, I remember Cody (Cody's Lab) trying to ignite it in a vacuum chamber and running into a bit of a problem.
Loose black powder doesn't ignite well in a vacuum (or transfer the ignition from grain to grain). One possible reason for this is that there's no atmosphere to hold the powder together or transfer heat or shock from grain to grain.
Not to say that a black powder cannon couldn't work in space at all... it just might need to be packaged differently for use in a space cannon.
@@ktaylor9095 Simply being constrained by the cannon ball should be enough for it to work fine. While modern firearms use smokeless powder, firearms do indeed work in space.
@scallywagwum2145 wdym no?? 💀💀
I really like the editor that scrapman hired he adds nice facts to the entertainment
Absolutely! Loving the insight they're adding to the videos without losing that OG Scrapman feel.
Agreed. The editor is great here. The "I think this is what he means" segment with the large cannon projectile was entertaining.
Yeah. I agree. I love that they’re adding all this extra information. I never knew I would learn a bit more about game design while being entertained by a weapons review by Scrapman.
Editors don't get enough credit sometimes
When he first came on board, he added some hilarious Easter eggs. Great work
Can we take a minute to appreciate the editor here! Absolutely awesome work.
First off a black powder cannon would work in space because it carries its own oxidizer. Black powder and modern gunpowder is composed of three core elements
Fuel
Stabilizer
An oxidizer
If you can fire a gun underwater you can fire it in space.
"The more you know~!"
Yeah, but at the most you'd only be getting the one shot per cannon because of how hard it would be to reload said cannon once fired.
@@dshadows2966 would be significantly easier too reload then on Earth. Think bro.
he is thinking in reverse 💀@@InternetCommenter
Yeah, even with an atmosphere they wouldn't work witout an oxidizer because there simply is no way to get enough air in contact with the gunpowder
what do you think gunpowder is made of@@jorge8596
The projectiles likely just have a speed limit at 3600km/h = 1000m/s which is what games usually use internally. Bullets are often simulated differently by the physics engine because they need better collision accuracy, thus the limit I guess.
For the spawning behind you, I would guess that the game spawns the bullets one frame later than you fire, spawning them where you were located last frame. At higher speeds this offset gets bigger, but as long as they still fly past you it’s not that visible.
I heard in FPS games physical projectiles need to have a ray traced between where they are and where they were to check if they maybe hit something in between instead of colliding hitbox es because the computing speed doesn't happen fast enough to check which would mean it phasing through objects/players
Unlike vehicles probably don't have this check which is why they can go through meteor or planet without dmg at high enough speed if timing is good
@@nikolaskuklis5925 Yes, that is absolutely correct. Let’s say you have a bullet which travels at 500m/s, and your physics engine runs at 100fps, then the bullet travels 5m each frame. It’s easy to imagine that it is possible that the bullet is in front of a wall in the first frame and behind it in the second. Thus, the raycast is necessary to test for obstacles in that path.
As you said as well vehicles usually don’t use this, simply because the have more complex shapes
I think the gunpowder cannon is automatically shooting "up" (from the cannon's perspective). That would explain why they started to shoot wider at higher speeds, and why they had so large spread relative to the other weapons when you were shooting at the large ship
the faster the travel speed the faster the projectiles will spread out, from the users perspective the angle is wider but from a motionless point its a very narrow cone, you and the projectile are just moving faster forward and thus, apart
@@60NineKTheoretically from the shooter's perspective the spread should be the same regardless of the velocity they are currently travelling at, however there seems to be a limit on how much velocity the projectiles can inherit from the shooter so the projectiles slow down relative to the shooter-
however, this is only in the same direction that the shooter is travelling. The projectiles have not inherited any velocity sideways from the shooter, so they spread out at the same rate as they normally would- it's just that they stay closer to the shooter while they do so since they aren't moving as fast forward as they should.
@@patrickhector It’s definitely non scientific in ways lol ;)
Scrapmans bug testing skills are OP. Also, give your editor a raise. They're doing a great job at adding insight.
If you think his bug testing skills are op, then you should check out Josh from Let’s Game It Out
@@ethanelliott9250 Oh Josh is on another level, I've watched him for years.
Your Editor is putting in Time and a half! Thank you so much! Absolutely awesome work there. You help make these videos what they are.
Scrapman's editor is on another level with these facts and additions inside the video, it makes the video look like a deep dive into the games mechanics with all the visualizations and info instead of Scrapman being amazed at the games wierdness and doing as many experiments he think of.
I’m sure the editor is getting paid enough but he still needs a raise. He is going above and beyond in these videos and I love it!
Alright... I think it's time to really give credit to your editor. They are giving an amazing amount of value to your videos recently. As always, these are great videos, but the editors really need to get a shout-out! Job extremely well done!
Question: Have we tried breaking the sound barrier using ONLY weapon recoil? Are we sure we done that with EVERY weapon? Cause at bare minimum, the tank cannon deserves a re-visit for sound barrier testing.
Love how the editor that scrapman hire adds nice facts and describe stuff is just some much more fun keep at it man 👍👍👍
I figure the projectiles literally run out of memory bits when they try to calculate their speed, relative to your own creation's speed.
Essentially my theory is they get a total speed value error, a number too big for the amount memory allowed to calculate it, that it then tries to work around.
Edit: Just seen the editor's captions thoughts @20:42, that's a cool, interesting working theory. I personally appreciate when you add the additional written facts, theories, etc.
An overflow issue is the first thing my mind went to as well, but I cant think of any power of 2 that would make the limit be 3500 km/h, even if it is being calculated in another unit like mi/h or m/s
Someone should really go through the code and figure out what is going on here
@@markinipannini 3600 km/h is 1km/s. that's almost certainly the projectile speed limit. Most projectiles get an extra speed boost from firing, except bombs, which is why they didn't experience the weirdness with relative speed. Scrapman's testing was not particulrarly precise
to add: at 25:55 is when he goes from being slower than the bullets to faster, as he passes through 3600km/h
Rather than overflow, this seems to be a robust, coded-in, maximum value. The devs foresaw a situation in which an object in their game reached unimaginable speeds, so instead of letting the program do whatever it wanted with the rampant values, they put in some code that prevented calculations from returning a value exceeding some arbitrary limit. Very good coding that no doubt prevented a lot of bugs.
@@magica3526 well he passes them because he is accelariting, and a bit later he gets shot in the back by his own bullets despite going almost 4000 km/h
The trajectory going up is due to the guns "pointing" slightly up. Thats called "zeroing" and is used to mach the landing of the shot with the redicles. It's used in gravity and the graphics of the game don't include it. All the "normal" guns and weapons fire slightly up just so that you can see where they will land in gravity situations. The problem starts in space where the "zeroing" messes up the aiming instead of helping you.
To the editor of this video. Nice work. Your contributions keep us informed and engaged with the content creator. You are a stellar example of a good worker.
Your editor deserves a raise! He's absolutely nailing it. Props to him!
When the editor made a blender model just to showcase the effect I knew this editor was different. Then with the explanation of velocity motion blur I was just: "this is the best editor I've seen because he tries to close the gap between a prerecorded video and the audience". It would be cool to have a high speed battle where you all have to fly in a direction (like north) and you move "horizontally and vertically" to get closer and shoot. But if you're too fast the bullets might not hit, if you're too slow they won't catch up to the target. Maybe a bit too complex but that's my idea.
Maybe for a video idea you can do space minesweepers, basically the bomb bays but you are laying bombs everywhere for others to run into, rules is that you have to constantly be moving and you may want to restrict the total area you all will fight in because the battles would be too long
I thought about that when i was messing with the bomb bays, but its hard to drop them without blowing yourself up
i’d guess that the weird effect where projectiles appear behind you is because of a delay between you pressing the button and the projectiles shooting. Once the delay is over you’re already ahead of where you pressed the button which makes it look like it’s behind you.
Your editor needs a raise
Not that you're not paying him enough
He's just so awesome
Some hypotheses:
1) The maximum speed of any projectile is 3500KPH
2) Due to (1), the observed divergence you observe at 3500KPH is similar to why cars seem to slide sideways when changing lanes on a highway.
3) Gunpowder canons seem to diverge faster because of perspective (any other explanation would have them diverge less).
Props to the editor, last few vids with the data have been excellent :)
Whoever your new editor is, they're killin it man
scrapman is underrated his videos are so interesting and fun. I don't really play trailmakers and i still watch them:) keep up the amazing work scrapman👍
You have one of the best (and nerdiest, which is good) editors! Love it
I have been in dogfights in space where me and my opponent both have rockets and shields, I find that even at point blank I only get minor smoke trails through the shields but they still shred when they’re down.
Video idea: have a space battle where everybody's in parallel at these super high speeds obviously below 3000 to prevent the issues with projectiles, but it would be pretty cool. Everybody uses gyros to rotate at each other, and then shoot
I absolutely Love the work the editor is doing. They are amazing at their job. I think this is honestly one of my favourite editors I've seen on youtube
A reason for the weird behavior of weapons at high speed could be floating point precision. If you work with numbers on a computer, which may be fractions, you will have a floating point number. This only stores a certain number of digits of the number. So you can have numbers that are really small and really big, but you always only get 15 digits of precision.
If you now add to such a big number a comparatively small number, it can happen that your addition would affect digits that are outside the saved space of the number. Then they may simply be cut away.
For example, you can store 3 digits: Your number is 3000, you store 300, and you know that you have to multiply this by 10 to get the right result. If you add 15 to the number, you would expect to get 3015 as a result. But the computer can only store 3 digits, so your result is 301, and the knowledge to multiply it by 10 to get the real number. You lost the addition of 5.
This effect could be happening to the speed of the bullets. Basically, their speed is so great that the addition of the firing can't really take effect.
I think removing the time limit on the bullets is a great idea for experimenting. However, if you are doing a space battle and too many bullets miss it may lag; it might be better having the ability to disable the timer in the ‘configuration’ menu would be best
About the cannon-shield interaction, it's important to note,yes it does block the cannon proj, but it's splash damage goes through shield. Just something I found while testing shields.
gotta love the super fine print footnote on the editor's note at 21:25 being barely legible saying that this should be taken with a grain of salt.
You should do a 2v2 dogfight but you share planes. Maybe one flys and one fires or maybe you have rear guns? I think that would be cool. Love your vids man.
It would honestly be really cool to just see a cloud of projectiles as a defense mechanism! I think it would be possible when paring that with a hyperdrive!
First of all, thanks so much scrap for trying my idea, I think it turned out really cool, and also I love the ship you made for it, it's super unique, I actually had another idea after that video that applies even more here too, remember your project to shoot immobile projectiles by driving fast in the opposite direction? I was thinking this could be tested here to maybe get "mines" out of cannons and such, would be especially cool with the cannon updates since they're stronger and the gunpowder and tank cannons have such a hard to see projectile, you could maybe find a way to lay mines or even make a ship that lays a grid of them behind it to catch pursuers unaware and destroy them, basically the same idea as rear gunners on a plane but the mines would stay stationary for 20 seconds until despawn
Loving the editor’s notes
I really like the editor now i know more about rendering and pre-rendered film animation and he puts these facts and it makes it feel like a document film
i think what's happening is the projectile is INFRONT of what you see, like it spawns AT the cannon, but appears behind, and it going and stopping next to you is it trying to catching up
Well done, Luke, Death Star is no more...
Also, Editor being a legend once again!
The projectiles go upwards/outwards because normally on the ground they arc, and need a little extra height to get there. The outwards projectiles are because you faced them sideways on your creation and outwards is their version of upwards.
Your edditor certanly does a great job. With the bits of info in the previous test and interacting with you in the video.
It would be interesting to see if you could use bomb bays while stationary to almost lay landmines if you somehow managed to increase projectile lifespan
you can do a battle where everyone starts attached to an exceleration ship that goes up to 3500, and see how things go with the weird projectile physics at that speed.
your editor has been amazing for the past few videos
You could do a multiplayer battle between vessels that have to fight on the first round on the sea and then in the second round in space, without modifications between rounds.
I just had a brilliant idea for a challenge, Cannon Dodge ball, you shoot One Cannon ball and everyone has a magnet and a repulsor, you have to catch the ball with the magnet and use the repulsion to shoot it at someone else in space
Props to the editor. Love the info grphics.
12:45 i had a lot of luck doing this with a railgun design. the camera block aiming makes it super precise in space. Reliably hitting ships 1km+ away, and bigger targets like nassau turrets 5+ km away
Video idea! Since projectiles are affected by gravity you could theoretically make them temporally orbit. I would go about this by going very fast in a spacecraft and then have the guns facing in reverse so that they are significantly slow. Then you could make a projectile temporarily orbit the asteroid.
You’d need to pay me in advance to try that haha, seems so tedious to set up.. and test.. a partial orbit would become a win
I kinda want to see if a space battle using only miniguns for propulsion is possible. Or whichever weapon has the greatest recoil.
With the devs fixing the issue of tires phasing through the ground, maybe you should re-do the motorcycle evolution, since this was a relatively large issue in that video
21:20 I think your conclusion is correct, Scrapman's editor.
But funny that his own ship isn't blurry. It's also going 3500km/h...
Idea: Two spaceships going at the same speed and shooting at one another.
That’s why in “The Expanse” the PDC’s have rockets on the back firing at the same time as the bullets, they counteract the force of the escaping gases pushing the bullet out, which is enough to spin a spaceship.
However, firing a gun in space, your momentum would be imparted to the bullet or rocket, and with no air resistance would go faster as well. If your cannon fires a ball at 300 mph mv (muzzle velocity) then if you are going 3,000 mph it should be going 3,300 mph. However, in Trailmakers it is flat 300 mph regardless (not exact speeds, I know, I’m just giving a basic example) so if you go at or above 300, you run into them. It would be nice if they fixed this problem, so the bullets and rockets will fire off correctly with Your Speed + MV as their speed as in real space, but it might be beyond what the game code can do.
you can make some cool cinematics with that information because whenever he fires the mini gun, he pass by them creating like a warping space and time to go in different places at the speed of light and it also looks like in some games when you are warping
19:00 it makes total sense: the game probably handles the speed as "[standard speed] + [player speed]", without the accuracy being adjusted (aka the vector for the speed gets longer without changing direction, instead of being being extended in the forward direction but staying the same in the sideways direction (like scaling vs transforming an image in photoshop). so it starts moving faster sideways, but the speed forward (relative to the player) stays (almost) the same (because it's based on the player speed)
10:23 Brutal.
17:38 The cannons don't shoot straight forward, the shot is always angled a little bit upwards (relative to how the weapon is positioned). It's meant to counter the bullet drop (that doesn't exist in space)
ALSO, additional changes that weren't detected in this video:
- The tank cannon, large cannon and gunpowder cannon have had their range and round velocity increased. It's no longer necessary to piston-boost them to hit targets at medium range (long range is another story, though);
- They also had their reload time increased (to 5s iirc);
- The large cannon now has autoaim!
- There is no bullet drop in space, but there is inside the planets' atmospheres, and it's relative to the local gravity. A round fired in Doon drops more than one fired in Nassau, and less than one fired inside the Gallina 9. And a round's drop state doesn't change when it travels between different gravities
Hi scrapMan I love your videos you make me smile and laugh thanks for your time and making everyone Happy.
Scrapman: does that make sense what I'm saying?
Editor: hardly.
😂
Thanks editor you’re the best for explaining things the best you can
Can we please have some kind of editor reveal or something because this editor is unbelievably good.
He spoke to the editor in "No One Does Wireless Cable Management Like Me" at 5:00
Shout out to his editor these notes and explainations are great
The black powder cannons probably go ever so slightly upwards when they're fired, that's probably why they seem to go so far off target in space, *especially at high speeds*
High speed multiplayer battles could be fun in space. Just charging at each other and having to time your shots perfectly to account for the 3000 barrier weirdness.
You should also test the effects of your piston launcher mechanism on the projectiles in space too, maybe it'll change the 3500 weirdness limit, if the velocity of the projectile is increased via piston power.
Also, normal weapons vs shields would be cool to test. Maybe tank cannons wreck shields more than blasters. Or maybe miniguns? Or maybe rockets?
I'd also like to see your spinning mass-bomber you made for that video with Yzuie in space... could you literally send a thick enough blanket of bombs out in every direction by spinning? Maybe make your mass-bomber shoot bombs not just from below, but above and everywhere, like take the bomber portion and clone to on top, like an orb to protect yourself and kill people in your vicinity.
Also, movement things like, what do hover pads do? What about dragon engines, burst fire rocket-fuel thingy? What about hinge glitch?
If you attach a small yzuei ship to a big ship via a detachable block... and you in the big ship just spins in place AS FAST as possible... would it work as a slingshot when you release him? How accurate could you be? What kind of speed would your momentum throw Yzuie out at? Think if you spin fast enough you could throw his craft with a velocity of 3500? Obviously his craft wouldn't be allowed to use Quantum Rudders.
Best quote I've ever heard "Everything has a lifespan."
I would love to see a spaceship battle like the ships in the movie Treasure Planet!
I think you should revisit the bomb bay mortars you built, the one with the bomb bays on pistons so that they shoot more like a normal weapon. I bet those would be op in a 0 auto-aim space battle (not that that battle would be particularly deadly in the first place).
Scrapman literally answered the question in the title with the thumbnail.
Suggestion: Use the bombs as mines. Drop them behind you to take out enemies that are following you. Could be a fun concept for a multiplayer battle.
I love the info notes form the editor if something is unclear in the video
especially if its not something obvious
Scrapman you should do a spaceship 2v2 battle that would be fun love your vids btw.
I find the portion of the video of speed vs bullets interesting cause I played a game that allowed the same thing and it did the same too. It was fun being able to spam bullets and ride next to them at the same time
i think the reason projectiles were going further and further apart is due to a slight angel in the projectile that makes it go up depending on the oriantation of the cannon depending on which side is the attachment side, and the due to moving further, both projectiles got further and further form the ship
YOO!!, this is the best editor, in UA-cam..... We got blender in scrapmans vid
and i love how more of the comments are about the editor than the content itself
Whenever I hear Scrapman saying "Dang it!" it automatically makes me giggle.. always has
you have an amazing editor!!!
Thank you Scrapman for answering this burning question I have been having ever since the update came out
Spread on the blackpowder cannon was bigger because it's angled up. That's also a reason why it has shorter range when fired upside down in gravity
That editor is superb. I also love the background musik
Doing a recoil propulsion battle in space would be really cool. I remember ages ago you guys did one for planes, but in space it might get really bizare and fun!
Did scrap man get a new editor? Cuz it seems that the editor is putting a lot of effort in the recent videos
He's had an editor for about 8 months now. I think they have just started to get the groove of things
I would like too see the mechanism that shoots bomb bays horizontally like bullets be used in space.
I'd be curious to see what happens if you and something your target are going 3500KPH or faster. Do the projects never catch up or is the projectile altered in such a way that it fires as you'd expect? I feel like we already know they projectiles won't catch up to something you are targetting but it'd be cool to confirm. Could do this with another creator or you could add something to your creation that detaches at whatever velocity and vector your decide and run tests from there.
Also major kudos to the editor, especially for all his/her work in your experimentation videos.
You should try to do space tank battles. Make a vehicle and somehow lock them to a certain height plain in the middle of open space.
Battles on/in the new planets would be cool too!
7:23 it doesn’t say that there was a change in ammo, but the stat changes in take cannon and bomb bay are identical, which makes me think that the stat changes are aimed at the ammo, not the weapon itself
Hey scrapman! Have you tried Cosmoteer? I’d love to see you check it out. It’s a space game with combat and mining and ship construction too. And lots of explosions and cool weapons.
I have an experiment on my channel where I tested how many shots it takes to take down the shields. I found out some require a few shots while others need entire rounds.
Multiple suggestion: Do bombers vs defenders in space but the defenders use emp to trigger dynamite in the bombers.
I love this editor
It seems like all projectiles have a max speed of 3500 kph, kind of like how the speed of sound is a speed limit for anything in space.
So blasters do have conservation of momentum.
Love your vids
"Everything has a lifespan" so true
this editor is the best i have seen
New editor is crazy awesome
I love your editor
What I would do with this information is take it to the devs and say "look, physical projectiles should keep going until they hit something. Also, they shouldn't have a maximum speed."
i have an idea glider that you control by standing in different sections of the craft so basically a glider with no seat but you have to travel with the craft to a destination with no constant straight line. Ps love your videos scrapman keep up the good work
A possible idea for why the weapons are glitching, I think that the programming of the weapons have it to where the spawn point for the bullet cannot keep up with the speed of the ship, so the bullets start spawning behind you