Is 5.7x28mm Just Overpriced .22 Magnum? [Part 2]
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- Опубліковано 28 гру 2024
- It’s the long-awaited conclusion of our two-part series on the 5.7x28mm cartridge. This time, we’re looking at more ballistic gel tests and considering when 5.7 might make sense as a self-defense cartridge in the civilian world. Is the hype real, or is it, after all, just the Gucci version of .22 Magnum?
Watch Part 1 here: • Is 5.7x28mm Just Overp...
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"...so that's what we did." And that is why I love watching videos from Chris and Lucky Gunner. Outstanding work, as always.
Adult presentation without gimmicks. Which is appropriate for a serious topic.
i get the question but in reality people who fight on 2 way ranges probably vastly prefer the reliability of centerfire over rimfire regardless of how similar their ballistic performance is
This
That was my resounding thought throughout the whole video.
I do agree with you 100%,
I have tested several brands of .22lr,
always the same, 2 or 3 malfunctions associated with the bullet not the gun,
[lukcy for me always at the shooting range here in my country]
You ain't kidding.
People who fight on a two way range probably prefer a legitimate rifle cartridge over this little oddball.
Those are poor velocities on the neutered Gold Dot. They made it a 4 petal design and slowed it way down. I wish FN wouldn't control the overall performance of these loads and slow them down to appease political tensions..
Ohh here we go Part 2
LOL
Hahaha. People can’t compete with your channel. They can try but they won’t win.
Why anyone would use 5.7 for self defense is beyond me. It’s sucks for terminal ballistics so does .22 mag. Just carry a 9mm
@@Romanus-😂😂😂😂
One of the best videos I've seen on 5.7, fair, factual and as it should be, points out the balance that all calibers have when it comes to usage. I'm a 5.7 fan, have several, I also am a 22 fan(LR and Mag), but at the end of the day, there is a reason that some calibers have been around, stand the test of time and exist in abundance. The rest of them, are fun to collect, share and hit the range with.
For me, there is just one thing that matters between these 2 rounds.
One is rimfire, and the other is center fire. I do not agree with letting my life depend on a rimfire cartridge.
Why ??? I never had any problem whive goodquality rimfire ( CCI for ex ) .
In the other hands ..... had so mutch trouble whive cheap 9mm ammo
fudd-tier comment
@druisteen I have. I used to do a lot of target work with a Ruger Mark 3 and a Mark 2 before that.
I sometimes went thru 500-1000 rounds a week. I had many failures to fire over the years. I even went so far as to load the round back in the weapon and make sure that it would be struck by the firing pin in a different location. Every time, the round would fire when struck elsewhere.
Yes, it really doesn't happen that often, but I won't take that chance with my life.
It is over priced
@@MycroftOnTheMove Did you ever fired 1000 rounds of 5.7
Just asking ...
so in a pistol it reaches the penetration and reliability threshold with better (albeit not extraordinarily so) perm wound cavity than a fmj while being light recoil, lightweight, flat shooting, and holding ton of bullets? I totally get why someone would like this. Though I guess like everything else, a tradeoff and def not a replacement for 9mm pistols but an alternative that is most certainly valid.
did you see part 1?
Always glad to see Lucky Gunner in my feed.
The 5.7x28mm was designed for a purpose that doesn't apply to most of us, but that is essentially the only thing it does better than a plethora of other rounds. I could see it as a small game/varmint cartridge in a pistol but it's an expensive cartridge so I don't think it will ever be popular for that purpose.
It doesn’t even do what it was designed to do well. There’s a reason it was basically ditched even by NATO who it was made for.
@@ShawnHinckIt wasn’t ditched, that was HKs 4.6 round… NATO literally just certified 5.7 like 2 years ago 😂
@@KennyRodgers930 after 24 years… and then nothing still. Certified and used aren’t the same thing
@@ShawnHinck I mean it took 9mm how many decades of R&D to finally become effective? Same thing with .223/5.56.
Obviously NATO sees the potential of 5.7 or they wouldn’t have wasted time certifying it, especially 24 years later. They still haven’t certified .45 ACP 🤣
@@KennyRodgers930to be fair, I think the main appeal for government use is still ammunition capacity and recoil. Its much easier to become good at shooting a low recoil round after all.
1:17 "Violent criminals with body armor are an extraordinarily rare threat for the average citizen in the US..."
I have no doubt this is true. But it does seem that body armor wearers are a significant and growing percentage of mass shooters. Aurora, Buffalo supermarket, Garland TX, San Bernadino. So for people who may be concerned with mass shootings specifically -- such as armed school staff -- armor piercing is more than some quirky fascination.
pelvic shots with 556 are your friend….
@@SuperAbsolutebut as the poster was alluding to, your typical school police officer does not have a rifle.
Yeah, but it's usually plate carriers rather than aramid vests. Kinda makes the armor penetration question moot.
@@SuperAbsoluteand pistols too. We have qualified with body armor drills for as long as I can remember… your 5.56 will go through soft body armor all day long.
Wouldn't full power 10mm be better at this?
Chris,
Your analysis videos are so CONSISTENTLY amazing! What an excellent teaching tool for discussions about bullet design, velocity, expansion, penetration. Thanks for all your hard work, I've been watching your stuff for many years now and have loved every moment.
Thanks for the video.
For civilian self-defense, I'd still rather have great expansion in a round that is less likely to go through an attacker and hit someone or something downrange.
The FBI has pushed twelve inches of penetration for a long time. In part, that's because of the 1986 shootout where they had the fluke occurrence of a bullet going through an attacker's upper arm, going through the right half of his chest, and stopping just short of his heart. That the attacker continued to fight and killed two agents is terrible, but that doesn't change the fact that the situation was a very low probability situation. The other part of the FBI's preference for penetration is that an FBI agent wouldn't get in as much trouble as a civilian would if one of their shots went through an attacker and caused serious harm to an innocent bystander. They'd get some unfriendly media coverage, but the agent would be much less likely to be sued into bankruptcy or prosecuted into a jail cell. A regular citizen is much more likely to be destroyed if a bullet penetrates an attacker and hurts someone else.
I also believe that a bullet that produces great expansion is going to stop well over ninety percent of the attackers that I would encounter. Those stops may not always be hard physical stops that absolutely keep the attacker from continuing to attack, but they will be a combination of physical and psychological stops that allow me to go home alive. Maybe the attacker is going to remain functional enough to pull the trigger of his gun again. Maybe he (or even she) will get lucky and fire a shot that hits me. That scenario is unlikely. I can accept that chance of my dying more easily than I can accept the chance that some eighteen-inch penetration bullet is going to hit an innocent person beyond the attacker.
The other big advantage of 5.7x28 over 9mm is for those who consider themselves "preppers" of any kind. I would love for someone to build a 5.7x28 equivalent of the Ruger 10/22. With the added reliability of a centerfire cartridge, this kind of rifle would be great for all-around survival usage. This rifle would be great for hunting game. This rifle with an extended magazine would be adequate for self-defense. Maybe it wouldn't look as "tacticool" as many 5.7x28 rifles on the market today, but with centerfire reliability, it would do the job. If someone had to walk into the woods with only what he or she could carry, that person could carry about two or three times as much 5.7x28 ammunition because the weight of each round is going to be half to a third that of 9mm ammunition.
I agree the 12 inch fbi test is overblown, not the mention ballistic gel is a standardized target. but that doesn't make it a good target for showing real world results. Just a reliable way to compared rounds in a simplified manner.
For me the 5.7 is for your back up pistol. so in the case of a armored threat were you rifle might be down. You still have a means to penetrate the soft armor, giving you a much higher chance to survive.
Also a ruger 10/22 but for 5.7 would be honestly really cool. Just simple design, that lets 5.7 have a more wide spread appeal and opportunity to be a plinker thus dropping training ammo down.
A 10/5.7 would be pretty cool. I've always said someone needs to revive the old AR5 patent and chamber it in 5.7 for the exact reasons you stated. This round begs to be a survival rifle and the size and weight you can package 100 rounds of 5.7 into rivals that of .22LR/.22WMR, with a significant boost in ballistics.
The M1 carbine was briefly chambered in a 5.7 Johnson back in the 70's I believe. Very similar idea.
@@kevinfogle7929 Thanks! That sounds like a cool gun.
The 5.7 is actually a pretty good round, it’s just too expensive for practical use.
But I do want to get a few firearms chambered in it.
I think the best argument for 5.7 is that initial penetration, recoil control and capacity. If we look at the purpose of a CCW/defensive use handgun, we need something that stays on target and you have multiple shots to take. All that really matters is shot placement, so if we can do that with multiple chances I think that’s what’s important, because in the real world we miss.
Well said and spot on
@@michaelnasser8697 yeah basically all compact/auto handgun rounds are anemic, they’re all lacking, they’re a compromise in performance for their compact size ability.
.22lr can technically do the job of CCW if it was more reliable, because the whole purpose is to poke a hole in the target’s heart and break contact with that threat as fast as possible.
At least this should be the goal for someone who is carrying.
@@joelbellJB Exactly! While I can handle either a 9mm or 45, you will always shoot a lesser recoiling gun faster and more accurately.
It’s getting better. 21ish bucks for 50rds of FN blue tip was the pre-panic-price. That should put federal American Eagle at 17ish. Now there are even more choices and I’m seeing FN blue tip prices coming close to that baseline. More guns are feeding it now. More peeps coming on board. I’ve been a fanboy of it for a while. Future looks good for 5.7
Once again, thank you for the time and effort that you and LGA put into these gel tests.
For as long as the 5.7 cartridge has been out, I wonder why not one company has made a small bolt action rifle with magazine fed yet for the 5.7 ?
The small game hunters I think with love a bolt action 5.7
Or a revolver, this could be fun in many different configurations
@@shade_angel1445 just one thing
5.7 is a mini rifle round
you wous have to come with some wird shit to get a full straith wall round out of there
@@kali.deusadacriacao they do it with 9mm, its not that hard to do.
@@shade_angel1445 and dont work well
I have seen cases stuck in the chambers multiple times
@kali.deusadacriacao with a moon clip? You're not cleaning your gun at all then cuz moon clips have substantial more area for the ejector to act on. Aside from the fact that you were wrong the first time about it not being possible, I fully expect you to tell me there were zero rds shot through the revolver and it failed on the first cylinder of ammo. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Lucky Gunner videos are IMO the most well-presented/written/filmed/edited firearms content on UA-cam. I always look forward to your videos. Thanks!
I don't understand all the debate about it. All the testing proves it's not as good as the rifles rounds it shouldn't be compared too, but that it is(arguably) as good as the handgun round it was designed to replace, while holding more rounds, having less recoil, and being flatter shooting.
Edit:
A few people are confused in the comments so, just to clarify, the round it was meant to replace was 9mm ball ammo from the late 80s, not modern day hollow points. I thought that would be understood, my bad.
That's the way I see it too.
Doesn't good 9mm hd ammo expand and penetrate over 12" out of a handgun more reliably for less or similar dough?
I think you meant to say is comprehensively inferior to 9mm.
Hence GarandThumb being in disbelief how thoroughly underwhelming its terminal performance was. In turn the theoretical consolation prize of it threatening Soft Body Armor, after being an utter failure to meet the intended spec of threatening early Afghan-era Soviet Paratrooper Titanium Body armor, requires a round you can't legally buy or possess. Even if you could buy SS190, at ranges a Civilian would be reasonably engaging someone it's comprehensively inferior to just buying Liberty Civil Defense 9mm +P which is barely more expensive than the 5.7FN's practice ammo.
Also 9mm isn't reliant upon adhesives to retain bullets, and dry case lubrication for the gun to simply function. Hence the MP5s haven't went anywhere, and FN's attempt to it challenge it with a poorly made gun whose barrel freely rotates never really took off, and were never adopted for the role they theoretically were designed to fill.
Friendly reminder the P90 finished development over 30 years ago, and characterizing the few limited buys that did occur as "replacing" anything is simply not correct.
@@jebe4563 What happened to a pistol round is a pistol round? That argument seemed to work well when 9mm vs 10mm, but not with 9mm vs 5.7mm? They are both official NATO rounds. I think in the real world their effects would be similar. 5.7 easier to shoot 9mm cheaper.
I love the gotcha moment when we were led to believe they weren’t going to do all that 22 mag testing. That really made my day.
Great study! Would be great to see some data on reliability of .22WMR. Everyone keeps saying it’s not as reliable but that hasn’t been my experience.
The only time I have had issues with rimfire is on cheap bulk ammo. Think federal 555 packs. Even with quality ammo you are more likely to get a failure on a rimfire than a centerfire
I can remember two duds with .22wmr, both armscor rounds, out of same box...I chalked it up as a bad lot...
@@bmstylee Everyone keeps saying that, but where is the statistical data to back it up? I just haven’t had this experience with .22WMR. Now .22LR, yes, but I’m also shooting cheap junk most of the time with LR.
The quality and reliability of the ammo itself generally does seem to be much better than .22 LR. But in semi-auto platforms, there are still a lot of feeding issues resulting from the way the rimmed cartridges stack in the magazine
@@LuckyGunner isn't it also somewhat if a pressure issue as well? I had an old guy, maybe a fud, tell me once that .22 mag and .17 HMR both are difficult to work reliably in semi auto platforms being a little too strong for recoil operated designs while being a little weak for gas operated systems.
This rang true for me as CCI was making "A17" brand ammo specifically for use in the Savage A17 semi-auto rumored to be a little hotter than standard .17 HMR loads.
Y'all just awesome. Prices, shipping, videos. The only time I share the excitement of this level as a consumer is for Costco. Thank you for your work.
- Fellow happy owner of a PX4CC
If only Costco would sell ammo then we'd be happy pigs at the trough.
Thanks!
@@harperhellems3648 Years ago I used to buy .22lr from Sam’s Club.
An SBR'd Ps90 is the best "PCC" money can buy. Light weight, low recoil, small, and packs 50 rounds. Less worry of over penetration too. It's a fantastic bedside/backpack gun.
Aesthetically MP7 looks cooler but I agree.
Can't wait for the PSA "at home" gun.
Except the trigger is crap
This is why SG1 team members required 5-10 impacts on jaffa to be effective. For semi auto protection they were better off using jaffa staff weapons.
The 5.7 penetrates soft body armor. Has good wound cavity. Does not over penetrate so bystanders won't get hit. has a softer recoil than 9mm. You can have 50 rounds available. Sounds like a great home defense round.
Was my hd setup in my apartment until my state made the gun illegal last year and my effective guns are takeing a vacation with family in another state until i leave this shithole.
This is my opinion. The advantages are more than stopping power and gel tests.
watch part 1 before you get ahead of yourself
5.7 penetrates level IIIA soft body armor, but not level III and above rifle plates. A shot to the head defeats any body armor.
Most defensive ammo doesn't "overpenetrate" to the point it wounds bystanders.
Missing is what wounds bystanders.
I think when psa comes out with the x57 we will see even more sales of 5.7x28 and more people pushing it into the bag/travel gun role.
Personally I wish Crye would do something with their pdw they patented a few years ago. For those who don’t know, it’s a mp7 format pdw with a special magazine that has a controlled tilting follower in the magazine to allow rifle magazines to fit into the grip of the gun. That gun in 300 blackout with a 1:5 twist for heavy expanding subsonics would be awesome. I load 300blk with makers 220gr expanding subs and they are devastating.
Great data, thanks for taking the time to compile it. Big fun of both cartridges!
Outside of boutique (vanguard, black fang, etc), all ammo is made by Fiocchi (fn licensed) or AAC (unlicensed, reverse engineered AFAIK). It appears as all the Fiocchi loads are intentionally loading light charges... possibly due to reputation of the round from years ago.
There's not much gas in the tank for 5.7 without a different case design. EA and Vanguard are pushing the performance they are due to case geometry changes.
Fiocchi really isn't pud loading it as much as you think they are, that's just the limitation of the round. This is not a 10mm situation.
It really doesn't need loaded all that crazy, it just needs the correct bullet weight (31gr or less) to achieve everything it is intended to. The 40gr bullets are the reason for the terrible performance, it is not capable of pushing a bullet that heavy effectively.
@@skyhop EA converts fn cases to make his loads...
The 5.7 has reliability, but the Maxi-mag .22 Magnum had consistent penetration at a caliber and velocity where expansion and temporary cavities aren't going to be as beneficial, so the ol' rimfire looks better to me if I had to carry one of the two.
That being said, 9mm is cheaper and more readily available. Plus, when it comes to niche cartridges, I prefer .357 SIG, which only lacks in capacity vs the 5.7, but is a more all around solid cartridge that's just not common enough.
Glad you hit on all the major points with this cartridge. Center fire reliability, low recoil, quick follow ups. If you haven't shot a full auto P90 do it if you get the opportunity. You can dump 50 rounds into a fist size grouping at 25 yards NO PROBLEM, even a roller delayed 9mm carbine has trouble doing that, between high rate of fire and low recoil, its the cumulative effect of 6-7 rounds into a target in no time at all that puts this on par with any of the other self defense cartridges, even in semi auto a 5.7 pistol is so flat you can still dump several rounds into a 1 inch hole in the time it takes to get a 9mm subcompact back on target again. It's too easy for people to exaggerate the effectiveness of 5.7 but at the same time this video proves that it is indeed NOT equal to 22 magnum. It's all subjective though depending on the level of training I'm not discounting the effectiveness of 9mm either it's my EDC after all. 124gr HST's are hard to beat.
This is essentially why I bought this weapon for my home defense. My fiance can put 5 rounds into a 3" target at 25' (likely a maximum distance INSIDE our house) in just a few seconds. She can do that with a pistol. With the rifle she can do that out to 100', and a 4" group at a 100 yds. And she has 50 rounds to do it with...
Amen to all of the above.
Zeroing a red dot on a PS90 for the first time, thought I was missing somehow. Turned out all 18 rounds left in that mag were hitting inside the 6 MOA dot. One ragged hole about a half dollar in size. At distance.
I was sold.
That was years ago. Now I can do that with pistols. It may be easy to overstate the 5.7x28 in many respects, true.
But one thing is certain... it is the single easiest cartridge to train people on, to put miultiple rounds very effectively in one location with rapid, surgical precision. It has all the benefits of .22lr or .22wmr, and none of the drawbacks. It was always meant for rapid bursts, with multiple rounds on target to deliver lethal effect. It does this exceedingly well.
Almost every other caliber beats it in terms of terminal ballistics, true. But the important caveat to that lies in these critical categories; accurate shot placement, extremely fast sight picture recovery, recoil mitigation, follow ups/transitions. This platform is designed to be run very fast.
Which all translate to 5.7x28mm being a nearly ideal round for use inside a structure or vehicle, for multiple reasons over and above 9x19mm and 5.56x45mm.
Kind of a moot point when you consider that (1), no civilian users are getting their hands on a full auto P90, and (2), in the overwhelming majority of civilian defensive gun uses, you’re gonna be shooting a man-sized target at less than 7 yards, not a fist-sized group at 25 yards. As Paul Harrell would say, yes there’s a difference, but there’s not enough of a difference to make a difference.
For the more realistic scenario of “man sized target inside of 7 yards”, I wouldn’t bet on a cartridge that can’t reliably achieve both penetration AND expansion, no matter how low recoil it is and how slick it feels on the range. If you can’t put 6 rounds of 9mm into a man-sized 7yd target in three seconds, then that’s a skill issue that you should probably train around instead of throw money at - yes, i’ll say it - an overpriced .22 magnum.
@@rvail136 not to mention if over penetration is a concern, and it should be, especially in an urban self defense environment, 5.7 excels in that regard. If you were to miss your intended target the chances of collateral damage is diminished. Less penetration through interior walls and wood.
@@christofrini all good points as well. And I do train and shoot with 9 and 45 more often than other cartridges. I just have a thing for weird and different cartridges. Also the ps90 is kinda a vibe you can't deny that 😂. To me at least it makes a great backpack gun of sorts. Light weight, high capacity, accurate, and you can carry twice as much ammo for the same weight as 9mm in a smaller package, which, when counting ounces and pounds that adds up quickly. It's got it's time and place. Heck, my home defense gun is an HK45 kind of the opposite end of the spectrum lol, but I do still have a place for 5.7.
Buffman range does great tests with all sorts of calibers.
And I was verry impressed with the vanguard vampires.
Very nasty tumbling and deep penetration, also good post penetration (post soft amor) very close to high performing 9mm ap.
Why is it amazing if it's only close to the better of the 9mils?
5.7 is generally only half the weight of the 9mm counterpart (total weight of the round, not only bullet weight)
You can have more bullets in the same size mag.
It's flatter shooting than 9mm and less recoil than 9mm.
While being close to damge on target.
Variable is it needs a full size pistol. I have a pistol with 17 rounds of 9mm and it's the size of my hand. The "flatter shooting" argument is valid,what after 150 yards? Who the f is engaging anything at that distance with a pistol? Defeating body armor? Delusional. A rifle is being deployed at that point or groin and head shots. 3 times the price for boutique rounds,like these vampire things that perform no better or penetrate even less than every other available round. This round was designed for high volume of fire with low recoil in a pdw. Not for pistol bs. It's a Porsche chassis with a Peugeot engine on a go cart track.
@jacksonnra1856 but it does defeat armor... Jesus we've tested it a ton.
@@jacksonnra1856😂
My issue is recoil
It’s got to the point where my hands hurt shooting almost any handgun, shot a IWI Masada a couple weeks ago and my hands hurt for a couple days afterwards.
The joys of arthritis and carpal tunnel I guess lol.
Considering 5.7 for the supposed reduction in recoil
Have you considered a double action .22 revolver?
doesn't have the issues of a rimmed cartridge in an autoloader and at the end of the day Something > nothing
apart from that maybe the Shield EZ line in 380
I feel your pain brother, have a similar issues but luckily only in my right hand, so I've picked up training with my left on bad days
That is a good reason to switch to a 5.7 in a handgun. If you have dexterity issues that mae mag changes difficult, the large round count mags are also a thing. FTR, I am not a 5.7 fan. I would, in a hi-cap semi pistol, prefer 9mm. And in a carbine, 5.56 or 6.5G.
@@jacobgentile3351 A heavy rimfire DA revolver may be contra-indicated for arthritic hands.
Try thr M&P 5.7 they are wonderful and thr softest shooting pistol ive fired aside from maybe a beretta M9-22
PSA Rock is 300 bucks when it goes on sale and has a lifetime warranty, definitely worth it if you have trouble with recoil.
I don't think there's much surprise here, but thanks for all the work that went into this. I think Lucky Gunner has the definitive work on this cartridge.
I don’t know why I care so much about 5.7
A real rifle round for handgun simple
@@cornellmiller2315 it's... not a real rifle round though
I'm with you, it's like I want it to suceed but it just can't quite get there.
It's a very fast handgun round that is easy, accurate to shoot.
@@garyandtricia1 exactly. Love the idea in concept and on paper but at end of the day it doesn’t stack up to 9mm
Great video. Great comparison. I've heard 5.7 is basically just a .22 mag for years, and your video does debunk that, for the most part.
In a revolver with DA rimfire is not as much of an issue, it should discharge on the next trigger pull when it rotates to the next round. Clearing a dud from an automatic is more disruptive.
For home defense with 5.7 ammo cost doesn't really matter, so I really like that
1) it doesn't blow through multiple walls
2) it has a lot of capacity
3) low recoil for fast, accurate, repeatable shot placement
That said...man it's hard to call those terminal ballistics adequate.
Thanks for the thorough 2-part test!
It'll blast through sheet rock like it isn't even there, so you might as well forget that for ANY round capable of stopping a human attacker.
@@skyhop Not what I’ve seen. I can’t get Speer GD 5.7 to go through more than 2 spaced sheets of drywall. Always stuck in the 3rd; 4th sheet was clean. So it might get through my wall but not through my neighbor’s and into their house. 9mm sailed through all 4 with multiple different HPs down to 115gr. Same with 10mm (what I used to have under the bed), even 155gr Hornady CD. Makes me nervous since the houses in my neighborhood are close.
@@garrettstiles7808 penetration is more closely related to projectile weight.
@@toddfeltman3748 generally yes, but even the lightest commonly available HPs in 9mm (115) and 10mm (155) sail right through multiple sheets of drywall. Standard weights of 5.7 stop after ~2 sheets. I’ve tried a lot.
@@garrettstiles7808 That was my point.
NATO: make us a round that penetrate armor but doesn't over penetrate a human body. it's for hostage situations.
FN: got you fam 😏👉
FBI: why doesn't this penetrate deep enough?
FN: cuz i didn't make it for you for every situation every human might ever face 🤔🤷♂️🤦♂️
It wasn't for hostage situations though. It was for non-infantry soldiers who would want armor piercing capability but didn't have the ability to carry a rifle.
@cstgraphpads2091
Ironically, one of its earliest uses was in an embassy hostage rescue mission.
22 Spitfire enters the chat.
@@jeraldard5710Yeah but it wasn't deveoped for that. It was made to e light and punch through 6b2 soviet body armor.
@@TommyboyGTP Okay listen up, Wildcat. For the Eleventy Billionth time this isn't about you!
I always have some reservations about obsessing with 12"+ penetrations when evaluating a round for self-defense. What you really want is for as much of the rounds energy to be deposited into the target as possible. A round which passes clean through the target has wasted all of that extra energy. A round which comes to a stop 'only' 6-8" deep in a target has dumped 100% of its energy into that target.
So all of the rounds which separate and lose petals are in my mind better because they dump their energy faster and more completely in the target. When you consider the depth of the torso of an attacker, all of the vital stuff is in that 6-8" range where most of the damage has been done. Any further penetration by the round, either in part or in whole is just a waste. Or even actively detrimental as who knows where that bullet is going.
I think you are correct concerning soft tissue: but the other issue is bones. Head and hip shots involve penetrating bones...and then there are ribs.
The 12+ inches in gel standard is there because...it's gel! That old standard was formed due to the fact gel isn't living tissue. 12+ inches in gel roughly correlated to the depth you stated on real life targets to reach vitals. Good comment though. I think all of us get pretty obsessive with all this data. Realistically, with modern pistol rounds...well, as long as its somewhere between a well constructed .380 acp and 10mm...it's still a pistol, lol. Your pistol is a last ditch to get you back to a rifle.
@@stevefowler1347I don't think any of that will matter when the 5.7 shatters into two dozen tiny fragments and leaves the target with an untreatable nasty wound
I get what you're saying, but you seem to be misunderstanding that gel isn't living tissue. That 6" of penetration in gel is not 6" of penetration in a person. The reason for wanting 12"-14" of penetration in gel is because that's roughly what it takes to get to the vitals on a human. Remember, a person has skin and fat and muscle and bone all in the way. Gel doesn't have any of that. It's just meant to be a consistent medium so that all sorts of calibers can be compared using the same test.
When a JHP functions properly they are found sticking out the body on the opposite side or stuck in clothing. They can come out the other side, but with really low energy.
A real waste of energy is wasting it on the opponent's skin. Once you see xrays of bullets stopped by the ribcage you'll see the real waste.
Check out some of Elite Ammunitions 5.7
Most of the non boutique ammo is loaded light on the propellant and essentially come from the same place.
The advantage of the 5.7mm for civilians is that it has a acceptable wound channel and permanent cavity while having something like 30% less recoil and being able to load more bullets in a magazine.
If you want to live on the wild side you can even find +P 5.7mm
The T6B tested in this video is from Elite Ammunition! 🤷 It costs $3.50 a round.
Thanks, Chris, for all this excellent information, your work on this question only stands to reinforce the notion that I already have enough calibers that I purchase from you and don't need another. :D
I love Chris’ videos, and encourage Lucky Gunner to make more sooner, rather than later.
I have both a 5.7 x 28 carbine and pistol so I can say this cartridge is THE best pistol cartridge available for self defense (against humans, not grizzly bears). Flat shooting with the longest range pistol cartridge made. Several hundreds of rounds can be carried, another 5.7 x 28 advantage over 9 mm.
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No other caliber seems to liven up a caliber debate like the 5.7. There is simply no middle ground, people
either love it or hate it.
Agree. Marketing experts sold it, and consumers bought it. The more we buy, the better the economy. I’m working on selling some cool new calibers. “ 5.555 Megapunch “ “ 6.66 evil slayer”. That’s just a couple I’ve been working on. Lol 😃. I can overprice the ammo and that will convince the consumer it has to be the ultimate caliber.
Excellent work. When you you started to explain all the things necessary to compare 22 mag to 5.7 I thought for sure it was going to be the reason you couldn't do it. Pleasant surprise, you guy went the extra mile and did all the tests necessary to get a full understanding of the subject. I will be sure to use your services on my next ammunition purchase as a way to thank you.
I have a Ruger 57 and I love it. Shoots flat and fast. Was carrying before switching to the P365 fuse just becuase it was smaller and tad cheaper. But honestly as niche as it is, having something to punch light armor is nice to have in your back pocket. Like having a full size spare tire. A donut works just fine and is smaller, and many tires are designed to be run flats. But having the option for it is nice blanket of security.
QUOTE: "Is 5.7x28mm Just Overpriced .22 Magnum?"
No. 5.7x28mm is just overpriced 22TCM9R ammo.
(FYI - Paul Harrell has already studied and comprehensively addressed this topic.)
Great video ! Definitely gives us the low down on what's affective . If you have a reason to need a low recoil round either will do the job ! if not then I'm sticking with 9mm , recoil isn't an issue for me and with good ammo it does its job
My EDC is a 5.7. Is 9mm probably better. Yup. But this thing is cool.
Owning many 10mm and magnums 5.7 is still so fin to shoot. And even being use to large pistols you cant deny how fast follow up shots are with a 5.7 and most peoppe eont flinch with it. Newcomers and women would love 5.7
Great work on this video sir. For my use case … the knowledge share kept me away from a 5.7 purchase I would have regretted.
its weird watching these videos today, I remember watching similar ones well over a decade ago that focused on why 9mm wasn't a good self defense round. Also like 6.5, 5.7 looks like its getting more options each year so it will become more popular for various reasons. I've had 5.7 in my selection since the late 2000s. Its a fun cartridge that people are fascinated by and still relatively unknown in a lot of ways. IDK if i would carry it as an EDC but for going around its not much more expensive than a few other rounds i own thats only purpose it to shoot most of the time. The price of everything is kinda crazy, but I will suggest checking out estate auctions in your area especially if you shoot shotguns as unless its an ar platform round can get most rounds on the cheap. Even some of the rounds that are crazy, i found 44-40 for less than 45 cents per round and recently got 7mm for around 80cents per round. If its fun for you then have fun and if you need something that will be your EDC type then prob not the round for you at this point.
Except for the niche of Kevlar penetration, simple 9mm ball has far better barrier penetration, tissue penetration, and a bigger temp cavity than the 5.7
NO! It's an incredible cartridge and
has awesome guns that fire it, like P90, PS90, PSA Rock, FN Five-seveN, Smith & Wesson M&P5.7 5.7x28mm, Keltec P50,
Ruger 57, Double Action 5.7X28,
Diamondback DBX57 5.7x28mm Pistol and quite a few others.
Awesome presentation (both part 1 & 2 ) now I know why I buy from LG
Recoil management aside, there is at least one other advantage of either .22 WMR or 5.7x28 over rounds like 9 mm or .380, and that's capacity. Relatively inexpensive pistols exist for .22 Magnum with capacity up to 30 rounds (Keltec P-30), while any double stack magazine will hold more 5.7x28 than a similar length and width for .380 or 9 mm. Combine low recoil, even so-so performance, and the ability to deliver well more than a dozen rounds, and these rounds start to look more attractive.
Sooo 30 rounds of expensive ammo that may or may not stop something. At least with the 9 it's 115 grains at 1200fps and delivering around 3 to 400ish pounds of force. Might not go through armor, but will still ring someone's steel plate and knock the air out someone. Point is, that's a lot of unpleasantness to give a person. 5.7 is like throwing acorns at people.
@@stonehalo1632uh oh, dood look out for those acorns brah.
@@stonehalo1632 Or, as noted in the video, 30 rounds of inexpensive .22 WMR in a gun that costs 1/3 as much as a Five Seven, does about the same (barring even more expensive specialist ammo).
Moot point for me -- I can carry 35 rounds of .38 Super with my Witness and one spare magazine. Beats 9 mm pretty badly...
I really appreciate the direct and to the point approach.
Thank you for the amazing content and goign above and beyond chris, been watching for about 2 years and appreciate the effor you put in.
Hey Mr. Baker, I appreciate these videos on more niche calibers. One thought: When examining rifle calibers, we don't expect them to meet the pistol specifications (12-18 inches etc.). Should we judge these cartridges by those different standards as well, or would that be irrelevant because of the lack of temporary wound cavity? Great video as always.
My biggest benefit that i think 5.7 has is just the fact that its reloadable, as much as i love my .22s i think being able to reload a round is a huge benefit
I like getting people hooked on 22 and 5.7 have not failed yet with making new gun enthusiasts
I absolutely love the cool factor of the PS90, the look, the brilliant magazine, the compactness, the full ambi, but when the pistol arguably has better terminal performance, I just can’t “pull the trigger” on getting one. Me sad. 😢
What do you mean "the last time for a long while" ? Please keep making these amazing informative and life saving videos! I hope all is well and I'm about to go order some ammo from lucky gunner to support content creation.
The 2,000fps threshold is very evident in the gel
Important consideration imo is the possibility that a prosecutor will raise the question of why you were armed with “military grade armor-piercing ammunition”
I'm gonna say it:
5.7 was meant for full auto.
Its main virtues are its low weight, size, and recoil impulse.
That means
-HIgh capacity
-Fast & accurate follow-up shots
5.7 shines as an SMG cartridge, and performs tolerably as a handgun cartridge.
But its terminal ballistics really suggest that it doesn't quite measure up to most rifle or pistol cartridges without putting multiple rounds into a target - which it is very good for doing.
“Violent criminals with body armor are an extraordinary rare threat for the average citizen in the US, at least for now”
The Mexican Cartel has entered the chat… and the country
You make it sound like there's only one, lol. Organized crime is an international ecosystem all its own.
Just tell them that goku would be disappointed and they won't wanna kill you anymore
I'm NGL bro if you've got any Cartel after you, you're getting disappeared lol.
How many gunfights against the cartel do you expect the average citizen to have?
11:08 to 11:12. I say loading rimmed or semi rimmed cartridges into a magazine are kind of a pain in the butt. You also have to be more aware how you load them because you don't want that rim lock to happen and when come to unloading the magazine it's also a little tricky.
These awesome videos is honestly why I love buying ammo from you guys!
I am still staying with my 9mm and 45ACP. I would like to see you do a vs video about the 17 HMR vs 22 magnum.
Due to nerve damage in my gun hand I couldn't fire a center fire handgun for 1 1/2 years. During that down time I carried a Ruger Single Six with a 6.5" barrel in an inside the waist band in a cross draw position. I chose CCI Maxie Mag 40 grain FMJ load and practiced only head shots. Tactically an assailant will always have to expose his head to fire at all accurately.
The video poster said it all in ONE sentence-"These rounds are only comparable if we use a 22 magnum rifle vs a 5.7 handgun." DAMN. That's saying more than enough.
Debating on the effectiveness of 5.7 while fun, doesn’t really matter in civilian self defense shootings. Many may disagree for one reason or another, but with all the shootings easily found on youtube it is pretty obvious that bad guys are just not sticking around to shoot it out with an armed civilian no matter what gun or caliber is being used.
Super informative Chris! Another great vid! Love your .32 and 10mm content, as well. Thank you!
Thank you for your continued ballistic testing. I would love to see you continue to add to your tests in other calibers as well.
thank you to Lucky Gunner for another fantastic overview!
I thought that the low penetration with a large permanent wound cavity is the main selling point for self defense rounds...
See hornady critical defense vs critical duty 9mm rounds. Both excellent for their application.
As a Stargate fan I disagree 😂
Jaffa CREE!
The FN P90 is a treasured part of my childhood.
I love the 22 mag. I recently had a failure while shooting my Ruger, single six. The case, fractured and jammed my revolver I would never suggest 22 magnum for self-defense. That’s also what the old guys told me when I first started shooting. If I had a choice, I’d go with Center fire for self-defense.
Thank you for finally putting to rest the myth that 5.7x28 is an undersized 5.56x45 and can cause rifle-like wounding, or at least equal 9mm. Finally we have a good look at a wide variety of leading ammo available for the cartridge, and we're looking at 2.7" wide temporary cavities with non-expanding .22 caliber bullets. Most of the expanding ammo tested in this video that struggled to expand, did so unreliably, or underpenetrated, except for the Gold Dot 5.7 from the handgun barrel which still did not deliver particularly impressive performance.
There's been much discussion about the 5.7s wounding potential. I've participated it. But we've never had good gel testing data, especially for the more exotic loads for which the loftiest claims are usually made. Here, you provide the goods. And your interpretation of the data you present is excellent. 5.7 isn't significantly more potent than .22 WMR, but for reliability the rimless centerfire 5.7 has a significant advantage. I thought the most impressive ammo in the video was the relatively deep-penetrating. .22 WMR Maxi-Mag TMJs, but then why not shoot 9mm or 5.56mm instead and do much more damage? Even .22LR can usually penetrate deeply enough (with the right rounds) for most things you'd want to shoot with a non-expanding .22LR bullet.
Thanks to this video, I will no longer wonder about whether the 5.7x28mm has special properties that make it punch above it's weight. No, it's just a relatively zippy .22 pistol cartridge. I wouldn't use it for defense, since there are better light-recoiling options, and for hunting I'd prefer the .22 WMR but there are still more potent and available cartridges with light recoil. 5.7 probably had a niche, there aren't many compact PDWs with 50rd magazines, but now I know the 5.7 is not for me. I'm not looking for a moderately fast .22.
With PSA coming out with the X57. I see the round being used as a truck gun. It has a large capacity in a small format making it ideal for for a quick weapon to have on hand.
I have 2 ps90s. One is a 16" barreled, and the other 10" barrel with a permanently afixed 6" can to evade the NFA rules.
I through 5,7x28 supposed superiority was due to big cavity. High velocity and penetration, like carbines , because recent studies indicate that hydrostatic shock is more effective over other parameters (like fragmentation or grains).
Was into the 5.7 a while back. Had a PS90 and it was fun. In the end I moved away from the round and don’t miss it. Just did not have a use for it.
Great test, I am curious as to how the 2400 fps class 5.7 bullets from a 10", 16" barrel look against the 5.56 from a 10" barrel. Temporary cavity vs expansion argument always has the nuance that at rifle velocities, temporary cavity counts for a lot more.
A 10” 5.56 will get comparable velocity with a soft tip 62 gr bullet that a 10” 5.7 gets with a 27 gr bullet. You get a bigger temp cavity when it expands, and more mass means you get that temp cavity without sacrificing penetration
This is great timing considering PSA's got their new 5.7 PDW coming out! Seems 40 rounds of speer gold dot... while also functioning as a solid check of one's credit, is certainly a viable answer to the 'bringing enough gun' equation.
Great video. Thank you for doing all the tests!
Leaving out fiocchi hyperformance feels like an oversight, but good data nonetheless. Great stuff.
Ppl talk about 5.7 and 22 mag, but everyone forgets the 22 tcm
Personally for me if I want low recoil I also most likely want low blast also and would go with a 32 caliber revolver. For an auto loader I am kind of in the rimfire camp since it isn't reloadable anyway. That said I think the .32acp is under appreciated. The only real issue with it is that it doesn't handle heavy bullets well but the screwdriver tip solids mitigate that somewhat.
I haven't looked at the 30 SC much as I am not big into the autos but it strikes me that it might be a bit much for a pocket pistol.
I'm consistently surprised on how often ammo companies make a product knowning full well the testing protocals that people are going to hold them to, yet still release products to the market that DO NOT perform.
I really want to do some testing with a 20" lightweight hunting rifle in 5.7x28mm.
I think that it has the potential to equal or surpass 22 Hornet. Now that's a interesting and practical test and application for 5.7x28 that most people probably never considered.
i get the feeling this going to culminate in "no, 5.7 is not over priced .22 mag. but, that said, 5.7 is over priced .22 mag." 🤔🤷♂️🤦♂️
Thank you for your dedication to ballistic science.
A caliber designed around a long barrel vs a short barrel design shouldnt be a debate frankly..22mag for civilians for civilian activities, 5.7 for niche vocations pertaining to body armor
5.7 isn't even good against body armor.
While the ballistics may not be incredible, I think what the 5.7 has going for it is more practical advantages for the everyday shooter. Especially now that costs are down to like 60cpr which is perfectly acceptable.
It shoots flat and has significantly less felt recoil which means followup shots are easier to put on target more quickly. This makes it great for less experienced shooters who don't live and breath guns. Second is the ammo capacity. 23+1 in a PSA rock is crazy good. More chances to land good shots and less need to carry additional mags is a huge benefit for "average citizen". Finally, the psa rock is THIN. I find it much easier to conceal it than a PSA dagger. Even though the footprint of the rock is technically bigger, the slimness makes it disappear a lot more easily and it's more comfortable to carry.
It's not a super round. It's not a slot in replacement for the 9mm. It's not a rifle round. But it is a very good carry round for average citizen. Because for a lot of people, the 5.7 offers more bullets, more accurately, more easily.
And let's not pretend that there aren't stories of people eating shot after shot of 9mm and 45 and still walking around. Well placed shots matter and if avg citizen has more shots with less recoil, they are more likely to put one of them someplace that matters.
The answer to the question of "is 5.7 any good?" is another question... "how much barrel ya got"?
The whole "not punching thru armor" pretty much takes away the ONE thing that 5.7 was centered around.
Well, the thinner the bullet, the greater the gun-powder, the higher the velocity and the greater the penetration, but not necessarily the range because wind could play a part there.
The Mauser/Russian 7.63mm x 25 mm has better penetration than the 9mm, but the 9mm could deliver greater energy, so might have higher stopping power, or a greater shock to the nervous system to induce nervous incapacitation. It could also create a larger wound to cause greater bleeding.
Faster and lighter bullets could tumble(somewhat-like hollow points), but that is a very subjective discussion.
I would never want to shoot anyone through body armor because very few criminals are likely to wear body armor, but penetration through vehicle glass or metal would help, where, again, 9mm might cause large shattering.
Larger cartridges or more gunpowder in a handgun would generate tremendous recoil or barrel flip.
Good review, thanks, Chris.
I like the 5.7 round but it costs a lot more, more difficult to find and has far less platforms to shoot it.
Some years ago Savage was offering the 5.7 in their walking varminter. I believe these had 22 or 24 inch barrels.. With the shallow penetration and rapid expansion in the longer barrels, seems like it would be just the ticket for groundhogs, prairie dogs, even foxes and coyotes without excessive hide damage or over-penetration. On paper it just seemed like a modern day 22 hornet, but suited for semi autos.
I think it would be cool if they resized it for 8mm. It would in theory have the same case volume as 327 mag, but for a semi auto. 57 also has a higher pressure spec than 327, so maybe approaching hot 10mm energy with better than 9mm capacity
5.7mm superior in every way except price.
It was made to dump all of its energy within 16 inches..
So it does NOT overpenetrate.
Also..
If you get shot 3x with 5.7mm you are having a bad day..
The real problem is that people compare 5.7 to big boy rifle cartridges out of a 16+ inch barrel.
Compare this to a 9mm only because that is what it was made to replace..
1)larger capacity.
2) longer range
3) larger temporary wound cavity
4) safer for everyone around due to less instance of ricochet and over penetration..