Jelly had 19 “documented” gunfights, and several undocumented gunfights. My family is from Mountain View Oklahoma where Jelly was raised. My great Uncle served at Oklahoma City Police with Jelly. I grew up hearing Jelly stories my whole life.
From what I have read of the man and some of his contemporaries, he was a deadly mother and a lot of todays 14 rounds one down type police could learn a lot from him.
@@owensthilaire8189 14:1 is an awful generous hit ratio to ascribe to police. How many times have we seen an entire department mag dump at a suspect, only for everyone to miss with all shots? Or worse, to only kill uninvolved citizens across the street?
@@ShuRugal We might be encountering confirmation bias with that one, though. How much footage or reporting do we _actually_ see involving full-on mag dumps, when in reality the ones we manage to see are a small minority compared to the reality? We just don't know anymore because our views are skewed. We only know what we see, but using that observation to encompass a totality is minimizing the probability that our assessment is inaccurate. How inaccurate are cops _really?_
I always assumed it was a holdover from the old west days. That's really crazy that everyone looked at a dude who was a savant of handgun shooting and decided to copy his technique without testing to see how it stacked to other methods for ordinary people. Imagine looking at the guy who can do calculus in his head and deciding to throw away your calculator.
The irony is that we think of people shooting that way in the old west because of Hollywood, which, it appears, was influenced by this Jelly character. I think Wyatt Earp in his interview said that nobody who was serious shot from the hip.
@@jongreen5638 this isn't really the same, because the guns and kit can be liquidated, and it can be reasonably learned. Anybody with decently working eyes good enough to drive a car and the ability to hold a rifle COULD learn to shoot at night and do all that kind of stuff if they had the time and range resources. I don't think most people could do what jelly did if they had their whole lives to try. You can teach someone to shoot at night good enough to be able to do it on their own in like one range session. There's a lot more to learn, but it's a different world than missing by feet because there's one magic guy out there.
@@superfamilyallosauridae6505 My point is that it's blind imitation of the "cool guy." In spirit, it's little different than someone spending $10,000 on a night fighting setup, when they lack a range to train with it on, and live in a urban area that is never more dark enough to really need nods anyway. Sure, point shooting was worse. But imitating the cool guy for the sake of imitation is human nature, with predictable outcomes.
This is precisely the kind of question for which Jeff Cooper got together with friends and founded the Bear Valley Gunslingers - to learn and distill which techniques best served pistol operators. Point shooting was soon relegated to the dustbin in favor of sighted fire. Good stuff as usual, Chris B, thanks!!
@FirstLast-hs4gw just wanted you to know I really enjoyed reading your comment. I'm not what's considered young & I can hit short range targets from the hip.
Sometimes it works. My first dead body call as a southern California firefighter in 1978 was an officer involved shooting (who later became police chief). He was investigating a suspicious person in the parking lot of a no tell motel. The perp popped up from between cars and fired at the officer with a .32 at about 10 yards. As the rounds hit all around the officer on the wall behind him he drew a 6" 357 from the hip and fired 3 rounds. I examinded the body later and it had 3 hits, one flesh wound just outside the left shoulder, another in the left side of the neck and one in the center of the chest with a big exit wound in the back.
@@FirstLast-hs4gwI think you might have missed the point. The point was that a bullet will kill you no matter what the stance is, but that it’s far easier, more efficient, and less costly to train most people to hit their targets by bringing the gun to their center field of vision than trying to get people to adopt a strategy and training regimen that’s far more costly and difficult to gain proficiency at.
@@mahbuddykeith1124I think they did aim correctly they successfully hit all three shots while under fire.You are an armchair gunfighter. I've never been in a gunfight but it's kinda obvious you haven't either I doubt anybody worried about. " fist sized"groupings while underfire.
@@AnthonyPiranio-w7g You should have seen the comment that replied to me a couple days ago, saying something to the measure of “fist-sized at that range is atrocious”. Granted, yes, 10 yards and in should be inch-sized groups on the flat range, but I was being generous to account for adrenaline and stress. No, I have never been in a gunfight; an infanteer’s job is to close in with and destroy the enemy, yes, but why would I want to be in one? That said, the training I have received is centred around close protection, delivered by people who, in their line of work, have in one way or another. Colourful anecdotes about sniffing the clamprints of famous people aside, the common theme of what they teach is that you should be accountable for each shot you take and be absolutely sure of what you are going to hit before breaking it. As such, I am a proponent of holding oneself to an increasingly higher standard rather than accept “good enough”. Yes, they hit their mark, but could they have done better?
My California sheriffs dept employer trained us with two-handed hip shooting at the 7 yard line, back in 1973-74, before dropping this in favor of aimed shooting. Around this same time I was following Jeff Cooper's advice, Weaver stance, etc., and never looked back.
Jack Weaver's stance is another example of copying something that worked for one exceptional individual, without thinking about whether it was appropriate for most shooters.
I love reading comments from cops or whatever that served before the 1980s talking about shot placement, when they weren't even trained to use their iron sights lol.
@@libra7624 You do realize you just committed pointless verbal bloviation on a joke post that was really just to engage the algorithm, right? Or do you think I really talk to ghosts and they use video gamer speak to comment on modern trends?
It is like learning to throw fastball over the plate. Need lots of practice. Curve ball even more practice. Somebody has to buy the ammo. As for the two fist? Make sense if you are wearing armor. One hand behind a big tree if you are not. But the best training? Hunt deer with a pistol on foot. No ambush shots. Again somebody has to buy the practice ammo. Oh and it also needs to be the same as the field ammo and the carry piece. Like; How do I get to Carnegie Hall. Practice. But if I am carrying a rifle don't count on beating a rifle with a pistol. Had a lot more practice with a rifle. Depending on the rifle design just looking down the barrel is good enough. ARs are not good for that. Hence the need for auto bullet spitting. I can guarantee will hit a 300 meter target with a 3 round auto burst with a M-4. Our with one round with a M-14. No fancy sites needed. 600 meters? Well no coffee for 3 days and 4 by 10 scope and a M-14. On the two way range. The one that sees the target last looses.
There were a couple of times in my LE career where I instinctively drew hip point on a suspect. At close quarters it's practical. It also prevents a suspect from grabbing at your gun. The trick to shooting hip point within five yards is to not to aim, but to look at your target. The gun will follow your eyes. Its like pointing a finger. Should that have been the FBI standard? No, but it is a technique that can be trained and used for certain close quarter situations.
Exactly like shooting a bow. You look at the spot you intend the arrow to hit, and through repeated practice you'll hit the mark every time. As a revolver carrying cop I trained constantly with hip shooting making up about 60% of my training. As stated above, its like pointing your finger while never looking at the finger, but looking at what you're pointing to. It IS effective.
@@anangryranger From what I've studied about Brice, he developed his technique from gunfights in hotel rooms, hallways and cramped alleyways. It's definitely a valid close quarters technique.
I always wondered why hip-level firing isn't more talked about in modern gun community for really very close quarters encounters. Seems like a logical technique, even if hard to master.
Defensive shooters do still use versions of a one-handed, low-hold, unsighted technique for extreme close distances. Extreme is important here, because for anything beyond three-ish yards you will always- ALWAYS, without exception, unequivocally- be faster and more accurate getting two hands on the gun and bringing it to eye level. I am being emphatic here because unless you have a disability or something else about you that is biomechanically different from the average human, it is a physiological impossibility for hip fire to outperform modern sighted fire even at five yards. The one valid method that is still used today is a special-purpose technique that involves rocking the gun out of the holster with a locked wrist, pinning the arm against the side of the chest, rolling the gun outboard with the butt anchored against the ribs, and aiming with your entire torso as a locked single unit, tank turret-style. At contact distance, it is not only the fastest but usually the ONLY way to defeat an attacking opponent. Beyond contact distance, it is useless.
My grandfather was trained like this as a sheriff's deputy in Maine in the 70's! (Maine is not known for being up with the times.) It worked for him the one time in his 40 years he had to shoot. 10 feet away one shot stop on a rifle wielding bad guy. Draw and shoot from the hip with a Ruger security 6.
The technique actually jumped the pond before WW2 and was taught to the British SOE. Since Dr No was made in 62, it would be 20 years before the technique would be revised. By that point, the intro was too iconic to change.
@@kevinfelton689plus Bond isn't just some dude who went to basic training. Even in a world where hip fire isn't practical for the average shooter, it's not too hard to believe that Bond is better than average.
Fairburn also had a bit of his book Guter Fighting where he taught point shooting, but he made it clear it was for 5 yards and in, and only for emergencies like a grapple or ambush, where the top priority is to start getting shots out immediately before you are killed.
My brother was an awesome street fighter, and I never understood it. I always ended up on the floor. One day he told me that when the sh-- goes down everything gets real slow and he found it easy to dodge and land punches. Years later I heard Keith Hernandez say that when a hitter is hot and "in the zone" everything slows down and they can see the spin of the ball.
The book "on killing" had a part if I remember the author talked about some of his martial arts training and how they worked to activate that instinct "on command". In my personal dangerous, hard-knock life if I keep a cool head I can generally get it to trigger when I'm going for a risky one-tap shotgun or sniper headshot in Fortnite(tm).
It sounds stupid (because it is), but there was one day I was playing some FPS game and it felt to me like everything just slowed down. I was wandering around popping everyone in the game for a period of a minute or two like it was nothing. It never happened again, not over years. I don't really understand it.
A very large Canadian police service I worked for taught a version of this until about 1997. “Point shooting” with both a revolver and shotgun were a thing!
The Navy teaches hip-firing a shotgun still. Then again, if you have to use a shotgun in the Navy, the best technique is "point the scattergun down the passageway and make the bad guys go away with ricochet."
I was taught hip firing a long time ago when I first started with handgun shooting. Later we transitioned to modern techniques. I've quickdrawn and fired just out of the holster at the hip on prairie dogs running across my path 6-10 foot away. Hit most. 686 4" 125 gr jhp .357's. It's not that it's ineffective, it's just much more difficult to get good at because of the time it takes. What I found was the fluidity of the hip firing method made transitioning to two hands at eye level really easy. Hip firing for so long also helped me understand that fighting doesn't always, if ever, go the way you planned. We've got to be able to fight and win when conditions aren't perfect, and that sometimes you won't have the benefit of using both hands or being able to raise your gun to eye level. Train perfectly perfect, but also perfectly train imperfectly. Don't be a statute, be dynamic.
I to went through that experience. Point shooting was my first revolver experience after iron sight shooting with a rifle. Got very good at it. I found as I aged glasses have hindered my shooting unless I wear my readers, which leaves to target a total blur. The squat seen in the demo footage, was intended to make the shooter a smaller target, not really taught today.
When I learned it in the 80s, we were shooting from what was called the bent elbow position, from the 3 yard line, without the exaggerated crouch, as demonstrated by the Montebello and Huntington Beach Officers in your video 10:20, Everyone in my academy class had could hit the target consistently on the first day. It wasn't particularly difficult and was very effective at close range where it may not have been possible to bring the gun up much higher. It stopped being a part of our program in the mid 90s. Kinda think it should still be. Not criticizing the shoulder point shooting we moved to, but don't think its a huge lift to have that muscle memory if you need it.
It was the same when I went through the Orange Country Sheriff's Academy in '79-80. The reality is that most gunfights still take place at less than 7 yards, or even 3. I should add that we trained first on the 25 yard ASC course, and then adding the PPC course. I wrote, "adding" because we alternated which course we were shooting on different days. It seems to me that many agencies and trainers have forgotten that "old" style shooting like the Camp Perry style or ASC type courses are the best for teaching and retaining the fundamentals of shooting. As Masaad Ayoob has pointed out, modern policing with high capacity mags actually has the same or higher miss ratio than when cops were carrying 6 shooters.
During my 30 year professional career, I was taught to hip fire both a revolver and semiauto pistol from 5 yards and in to the one yard line on the range. Also, point-shooting (using the front sight only) at closer distances in from the 25.
@@5.56MediaHe doesn't need any, because either way he's right. By definition, using the sights in any fashion is not point shooting. I'm not disagreeing with your experience or skills- those stand on their own- but from a terminology perspective, what you were doing was unequivocally not point shooting. Certainly sounds like it was good shooting, maybe even better than my shooting- but not point shooting.
I played around with hip firing about 35 yrs ago and got pretty good at it! I had lot's of range time and a terrific Smith and Wesson model 17. (.22 in a K frame) I didn't know any of this history but was likely just imitating old movies I'd seen. It was surprising how, with some practice, hitting multiple cans at 5 to 7 yards was entirely possible.
So warm and fuzzy, I started in law-enforcement in 1983. I had the hottest ticket at the time a four inch smith and wesson 686. “Combat Crouch” was taught and required for qual/re-qual. It wasn’t that difficult really the furthest was 7 yards if I remember right, then we went to sighted fire. The final stage on the modified PPC course was six rounds at 50 yards. The howling and crying we would hear today if officers had to shoot 6 rounds all DA from a stock revolver at 50 yards. It was a different time.
Indeed it was, but our shots fired to perps down ratio was 3. Instead of mag dumps today. We simply were better shots with cooler heads in those days...period
I could stay in 5-7 inches inside the bottle. Horrific sounding at that distance I know. But scorable hits. After the draw move the pistol to the centerline of the body. Don’t try to do it by just drawing and crouching. Not real practical with where we’re at today but fun to try. But a lot of what we use to do was not real practical like making us shoot for practice and Qual with powder puff semi wadcutters. Then issuing our 18 plus P rounds for duty.
I can still , at 59 years old , keep a tin can bouncing with hip shots. Although I now practice it with a Ruger Single Six..22lr. here is a story that you can believe or not, but it's true.. I was walking up my driveway with my brother in law when he almost was struck by a rattle snake. the snake coiled and raised it's head as I drew my revolver and almost cut it in half just before it struck. I hit it just behind it's jaw..Terry never even saw the snake until After I had killed it. But please understand, I have literally practiced this type of shooting my entire shooting life, My Father was a Gunnery Sgt. So I grew up with firearms. It is pretty much just muscle memory at this point.
Bob Taubert was another FBI agent that put emphasis on more of reflexive shooting than solely hip shooting. I took a course based on his teachings years ago. Most of us in the course did find a noticeable difference in speed shooting that way at 5 yd and in, some even to 7 yd. By 10 yd everyone wanted the pistol eye level and the timers and targets reflected that. What's interesting is the reflexive shooting techniques that were taught by Taubert have some similarities with the target focused shooting more readily allowed by red dots, but still possible with iron sights. I actually found that reflexive shooting practice was handy when I switched to red dots, as I had already spent the time to build a body index with a pistol.
Over aiming is big deal. It would be malpractice to train people for gunfighting and not have them practice different levels of sight confirmation. You really need to be confident using something in between hip shooting and the 100% perfect sight picture.
What was the accuracy standard that was good enough at 5 yards? Was it all clustered closely on or around the heart or was it just anywhere on a silhouette? Even at 5 yards if your hits are all over the silhouette vs a ragged hole in the heart when using sights then I don't think the speed advantage is worth it.
@@Murphy82nd that's a good standard, an 8 inch circle centered on the upper torso is a close approximation of the area covering the heart, the aortic arch and the largest blood vessels of the lungs. Maybe hip fire has some place.
I was a LEO 30 years ago for 8 years and I fired 300 rounds a week. We practiced relentlessly and our shooting / hit record was Damn good. Instinctive shooting was our standard and it worked at close range. We also carried ..Model 10 S&W .38 Spls which simply are the best "point shooting" sidearms ever made.
I've also found the 4" tapered barrel Model 10 an extremely good pointer. As well as the Luger and Browning Model 1910. They all shoot right where you're looking.
@@santamanone The fact that I own a Model 10-5 and a CZ 75 BD. Both are great point shooters. The Walther P.38 isn't great like you said, which I ALSO own. I don't know what you're talking about. That Walther got a horrible grip. It's like holding a block.
I learned hip shooting in 1977 in the academy. Out to 3 yards we used hip shooting. Back at 5 yards it was two handed shooting but still below your line of sight. At 7 yards it was two-hands, eye level. And we learned it. We shot well. We qualified. I'm not Jelly Brice, but I still mastered what we called Point Shooting. It takes good instruction and practice, but it is easily mastered, within reason of distance.
I started my LEO career in the mid-1980’s with a 4” Smith k frame. Within 5 yards, nothing was more effective than Jelly’s technique. That didn’t hold up once we moved to Beretta 92’s. Now that I am retired and carry a J frame, I practice Jelly’s method all the time and feel great about it.
@@craigdamageThe pistols I have P10C and Hellcat, do not jam even if I really limp wrist it, but fails to lock open at last round. Only the LCP Max had this issue, along other issues, I don't really trust it. But most pistols aren't like this.
My two cents, I wonder how much of it, at least the phase one version of the 1920s-30s was born out of people who had fought in the first world war when they had go get into the other guy's trench and they didn't have the space to fully extend their arm to shoot their handgun (for those who had them) and so the "hip style"
Actually, Fairbairn and Sykes modeled their handgun shooting techniques after observing Shanghai police during actual raids. Anticipating incoming fire, they all crouched some. The two-handed technique was far into the future, so having the pistol in hand, held at hip level to avoid grabs worked. The lads created the first Hogan’s Alley emphasizing speed and accuracy.
As usual Chris, you put out an excellent video. I really enjoy the videos you put out, and the style in which you put them together. Even on videos where I’m not especially interested in the subject, I almost always learn something interesting and/or helpful. Thanks for sharing.
name not even mentioned that was more instrumental in police training that continues to this day is William E. Fairbairn. In his hundreds of encounters, he was first to put put into training "he who fires first even if he misses usually wins."
I carry a 2" Colt Detective Special and practice quick draw and firing from the hip. I'm accurate out to 7 yards. Anything beyond that will require eye level and lining up the sights. However, as a civilian I am of the opinion that if I ever encounter a threat that is at distance that requires careful aim, that is a distance away in which simple evasion might likely be my best choice as a defensive measure.
Your videos are incredible man everyone is a banger. Especially ones like this I love videos going over old firearms use and tactics in America to now its so interesting to see what we used to do.
Great stuff! Funny thing I've never heard of him, actually I'm surprised about that. In the Marines in 82 we started a close combat pistol course mostly for Marine guards. The 4th and final stage 7yds 10 rounds 2 mags with a 45 and flap holster. Had to draw hip level chamber a round shoot 5 change mag fire last 5 in 10 seconds. As an instructor we told them to squat as they draw and keep their arms parallel to the ground and watch the impact of the bullet and adjust if needed. Everything was two hands except the first stage, 25 yard barricade 5 right hand from behind right side of barricade reload 5 over the top two hands then 5 left hand left side. I'm thinking it was around 60 second time limit it was plenty of time for a 45 but us instructors had to also qualify with a 38 revolver and hand reloading was hard you had to be fast. We used the FBI silhouette target of a 6ft man drawing with the right hand. It was a great course! I left the Marines and Pu'uloa rifle range Ewa Beach Hi in 83.
Paul Harrell once shot from the hip wearing boomer clothes in a boomer fudd like firing stance as a joke, predictably it was ineffective but it was hilarious
Maybe the slower, larger calibers popularized at the time made seeing them in-air and getting a feel for your arc much more easy, therefore it enabled an unorthodox but still muscle-memory trained aiming style.
Yes, that was definitely part of it. Bryce didn't use a .38 Spl like most, I believe he mostly used a .44 Spl or .45 Colt (can't remember which) and that would certainly make it easier to track the bullets
1:41 What I'm guessing are 45 ACP coming out of that 1911 almost look like tracers to me, so it's possible some bigger, slower rounds could be seen. Mf must have eaten his carrots!
I think we're all taking Jelly Bryce a little too literally here. Regardless of how good his eyes were, human visual acuity is not really able to actually see and track a bullet inflight without the aid of tracers (like in the WWII training video, those were actual .45 tracers) or some bizarrely uncommon lighting conditions. Even the slowest-moving .38 wadcutters are still going too fast for you to actually see and comprehend. I think we are meant to assume that he had such good proprioception and coordination that he could mentally visualize the path of his rounds, which is certainly more plausible and still very impressive.
@@its_clean I think it was less to do with eyesight as it was understanding distance and position of his weapon and body. Do something long enough and you are usually going to get good at it.
I notice that when a good camera is lined up right behind or next to the barrel, you can clearly see the bullet and the wake it leaves in the air. I wonder if maybe he had a mutation in his eye that let him see with less motion blur
Exhibit A: the BAR hip shooter belt (a metal clasp that fit the stock of a BAR for assaulting movements on fortified positions, intended to be fired from the literal hip)
One thing that aimed fire practice doesn't typically account for is the natural, intense focus on an actual threat, rather than the sights, during a stressful encounter. So practicing point shooting at short distance could be a beneficial skill to develop. Oh, and Taran Butler.
Exactly. People forget the adrenaline dump. Point shooting is fine for 25 yards in. As I’m not a police officer it’s very unlikely I’m shouting at longer ranges. If I am the sure I likely have more time for aiming.
@@tufelhunden5795 I would say perhaps it's not for everyone, and routine practice is a necessity. I got pretty good shooting at less than 5 yd at one point, I could put holes pretty much where I was looking. But it took lots of practice.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. First, Taran Butler is an outlier in the data. He doesn't represent what the average shooter can achieve with good quality training. Even the people he trains for years aren't as good as him. Second, pistol sights still work when you are target focused as well. They aren't as accurate as they are when you use front sight focus, but they are still way more accurate than hip fire and you can get accurate follow up shots much quicker because you can have a secure two handed grip and consciously correct for the muzzle flip. For any technique to hold up in high stress situations requires lots of training, but it does work as evidenced by the results: troops train to move, shoot and reload while getting shot at. Pilots train to refuel in mid air in bad weather when their lives and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment is at stake. UFC fighters are able to execute difficult fighting techniques while being watched by tens of thousands of people, having prize money, and titles at stake. If you're going to train to the point that you can perform under pressure, then there's no advantage outside of arms reach to hip fire over two handed sighted fire. This is especially true since most shootings take place in crowded urban centers where the likelihood of hitting bystanders is higher than in the country.
@@davidhoffman6980I was going to write a long reply to OP but I don't need to anymore. Everyone just needs to read what you wrote because this is the answer. Taran is the exception that proves the rule, not the example to be followed. And you'll note that while his hip shooting demonstrations are impressive, he has never used that technique in any legitimate competition with cash on the table. Says all you need to know: even the most famous modern hip shooter still uses traditional sighted fire when it counts.
@@davidhoffman6980You make good points, but I disagree most with what constitutes high stress training. First, I mentioned Taran Butler because he illustrates what is humanly possible with point shooting (point shooting being a spectrum of technique ranging from hip shooting to looking over the sights without aligning them). TB is A-zone accurate and super fast out to several yards. I believe mere mortals who are determined to practice can achieve sufficient accuracy to several (say 5-15) feet, and be reasonably fast. The potential problem with sighted fire is that the vast majority of shooters, including those who shoot competitively, do not train or engage targets with sufficient stress in order to be reliable in adrenaline-dump, tunnel-vision inducing, life-threatening encounters. That type of training is typically limited to high level law enforcement and military. The main issue is whether training is of sufficient quality and repetition so that it can override instinctual human responses. And these responses can be highly variable among different people, even with identical training. This is where I think point shooting can be beneficial because it assumes a worse-case, target-focused stress response from the beginning. I practiced with it at one time and was happy with the accuracy achieved at shorter distance combat ranges. I shot some IPSC back in the day, but mostly conventional outdoor pistol (bullseye) and was fairly proficient with sighted fire from 25 to 50 yards. It's a great sport for developing absolute fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control. I just think it's fine to have several tools at your disposal.
Every time I look for which ammo types I'd like to carry, I always see if Lucky Gunner has reviewed its ballistics and history. Always a great resource, this is a fine reminder of that.
We, Former US Air Force security policeman were taught the hip shooting stance in training. Remember that we were armed with the S& W M15 combat master piece, 38 cal. With 110 gr. FMJ.
7:49 - I can understand that. My first match outside; I could see some of the bullets heading towards targets. It was weird because I wanted to use them to aim instead of the sights - stick with your sights.
Florida still has hip shooting as part of their qualification course for LE, Corrections, etc. I am one of the etc. We use the local Sherrif's office range for our qualifications. Due to the design of the range the closest we can get for the hip shooting portion is 3 yards. Hip shooting is hard at that range, especially with a time limit enforced by turning targets. We have been told to use the first hip shot to find where you are hitting to make corrections for the follow up shots. It works, but you lose at least one round from your score unless you are lucky. Our minimum score to qualify is actually higher then for LEO, so losing rounds in any stage of the qualification is less than ideal.
How do you see the holes in the guys clothes? Don't bullets pass through clothes without leaving the clean, distinctive holes that they leave in cardboard or stretched paper? Wouldn't this be especially challenging if the suspect is moving around or if his clothes move?
@@davidhoffman6980 In real life the clothes bunch up and actually get sucked into the guys wounds. So you can see it. Also there is a lot of splash back which for some reason never shows up clearly on cameras. In real life though you really only shoot from the hip to speed rock, and that is used when you are basically at contact distances. Modern tactics say to draw knife instead of handgun at these close ranges, but it is of course contextual. Knives do not stop people anywhere near as quickly as a gun or even a fist to the head.
@@DaveSmith-cp5kjI think the whole "knife is faster inside 7 yards" trend was a misunderstanding of the Tueller demonstration. Yes, a person charging you with a knife inside 7 yards will get to you before you get yo your gun. That is not the same as saying that within 7 yards you should attempt to draw your knife instead of your gun. Drawing either weapon will take you the same amount of time- certainly longer if your knife is a folder. And you're correct that outside some very specific attacks, a knife incapacitates slower than a gun, and is also difficult to use effectively without a fairly advanced level of training. So you really are still better off going for your gun regardless of distance. In my observation, the industry has moved on from that brief fad and no one really trains to go for the knife inside 7 yards anymore. At contact distance, speed rock is king.
@@its_clean The knife use at close range isn't about being faster, it is about the fact you can be disarmed or prevented from even drawing your gun from the holster. The current doctrine is to not draw your gun within arms reach which has rendered the speed rock "outdated". However I still subscribe to the speed rock if you have control of the clinch.
I think that the cheek pistol concept is a similar or modern parallel questionably useful/effective technique that's predicated on the skill of a single, outstanding shooter which is hard to train and use for the average person.
“situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.” Any fighting system that has the techniques dictating anything should raise a huge red flag. - Roger Phillips
Though people stopped training it, it can still be a valid technique for those who are capable and practiced. I once witnessed my father quick draw his 1911, hip fire a single shot, and decapitate a rattlesnake that was about 5' away while he was standing sidehill with his deer rifle still in his left hand. I still have his Naval Expert Pistol Marksman medals and trophies, and I can verify that he was extremely proficient with both the Bullseye and single-hand hip shooting techniques. As they say, "God created men, Col. Colt made them equal." Perhaps some men are more equal than others. 🤷♂
I've commented to friends that I can sorta see my bullets leave the gun and they've told me it's impossible. Good to hear someone else seemed to believe they could too.
This technique is something I've practiced extensively, and I've always been puzzled at the claims of ineffectiveness. It's easily possible to develop a very high level of accuracy out to seven yards. Past very short range you definitely want to use sighted fire. Hip shooting is for when there's no time to bring the gun to eye level. I started with a pellet gun revolver, moved on to a 2" barrel .22 revolver, and eventually I was able to easily make consistent head shots with a .44 Magnum. It's also an excellent way to use the sawn-off shotgun. I realize most people don't go to the trouble of legally owning or carrying such a weapon, but it's absolutely devastating inside 15 yards, and firing it from the hip is a very good way to deal with the heavy recoil. I did have a substantial advantage in practice few people would ever be able to do. For a while I worked in a large retail store as their armorer and gunsmith, and on weekends I would operate the shooting simulator room because I was the only one who could keep the temperamental CO2 gas powered simulator conversions going in the guns. The conversion provides highly realistic recoil and cycling, and the guns then emit infrared laser beams that register on the targets projected from an overhead camera on an entire wall of the room. A very expensive and uncommon system that was developed for police and military training. So I had free unlimited ultra realistic practice for hours at a time every weekend for a couple years. Eventually I could draw smiley faces on the targets from the hip, which I have to admit I delighted in showing off. I also got very good with two handguns simultaneously. It's mostly a stunt, but it is workable. A very unusual training opportunity few would ever have. But you could also do it at home for very low cost with airsoft guns. Anyway, hip shooting definitely works extremely well at short range. But it does indeed require extensive practice and also has to be maintained. If you can master it, it's a formidable technique enabling you to instantly score very rapid hits drawing from the holster with powerful heavy recoiling guns. Somehow it's much easier to shoot at speed from the hip. The critical thing is to keep the gun on the centerline of your body with it in the bottom of your field of vision. Eventually you'll be doing that unconsciously. You then keep it locked in that position, elbow firmly against you, and index on the target by rotating or bending your entire body. The elbow of the shooting arm must be firm against you. Otherwise you have no sense of where the gun is in relation to anything else.
In Australia we have a pistol match called 'Service Pistol' that has a 12 shot stage (6 shots, reload, 6 shots) at 7 yards that requires the gun to be held below shoulder height and shot instinctively without using the sights. Perfect scores are often shot.
A little disappointed you didn’t mention Bill Jordan. I would argue that his influence was just as, if not more important, in the staying power of “point shooting” as Bryce. Bill Jordan was also perhaps one of the most influential figures in the long life of the service revolver among American police, and put off the widespread adoption of autoloaders until the 1980s.
When I was a young man, I spent some time with Rex Applegate, who trained my boss in WW2 in the OSS. Instinctive point shooting was the method I was taught, along with some of his hand to hand fighting moves that we may need to use in our line of work that put us in some dangerous situations
What an interesting topic! I'm old enough to remember the PR/Hollywood presentations in those hip shooting days (and experienced enough to realize why that is a technique I never tried). Thanks for putting this up.
You can shoot from the hip in New Jersey on April 13th at the "TV Land Cop Show" competition at Shongum Sportsman assoc. Each event requires 25 rounds, 10 from FBI crouch at 7 yards, 5 off hand w/ strong hand only reload 5 weak, 5 two hand standing. The stages are named after old cop tv shows. You are required to use the same or similar models from the shows\movies they are named after. Dragnet 2" S&W 38, 007 Walther PP,PPK,PPK\S there are 18 different events. I"ll post the flyer on my page. Its a fun event
Yes, it is difficult, and as you said, that's probably why it wasn't the best thing for the masses. The masses don't want to put in the work to perfect a technique like that. Having done so since I was a child (literally) I can say that it is effective if one is willing to put the work into it. I learned it because it was the best way to shoot in some of the games we played as kids. Yes, I said games and kids and guns in the same sentence. Funny thing is, none of us ever got shot or died in the process. Most of these games involved hitting a single Target multiple times while it was moving. It is also much easier with a modern semi-automatic than it was with an old school revolver. Most of us could do the same with a rifle as well. And it is actually faster. The second video clip you showed proves that plus the additional time of dropping down into that stance as opposed to the old Gunslinger Style which requires much less rigidity in stance and body movement. You can reach out and pick something up without looking at it. With proper training your gun should be an extension of your arm in the same way that you can point your finger at something pretty damn accurately you can learn to do the same thing with a gun that principle seems to be lost in most training
It makes sense against an attacker with no gun. Say you are in a classy scene where the tools are checked at the door, it pays to have a snubby and be on the side of the man.
Being that I've fired from the hip with a saw it's understandable lol. Just facing your enemy naturally brings your hips in line. Not very accurate though
Very informative. When I went through my state's police academy in 1989, part of our firearms instruction was hip shooting verses two-handed shooting at eye level. Very few of us could get center mass hits beyond five yards. Our instructors and our firearms manuals all taught two hands on the handgun, double action only, use the front sight. We got chewed out if the instructors saw us putting spent brass in our pockets, and would a stern lecture about dying with spent brass in our pockets like the CHIPS at Newhall. Enjoyed your video about Newhall as well.
The pocketing brass thing is a myth. None of the slain Newhall officers were found with brass in their pockets, and one of the responding officers explicitly reported finding brass dumped on the ground next to the fallen officers' cruiser. CHP did change their training policy on pocketing/bucketing brass after the incident, but this was incidental and not in response to anything the Newhall officers actually did on the day. Urban legends die hard, but especially so when people keep repeating them, so let's not do that.
Was popularised by Fairburn and Sykes as the 'Shanghai Position' in the 30s. Based on their experience in close quarter fighting as part of the Shanghai Special Police.
You should do the old world officer stance we're you hold one arm behind your back and hold the gun fully outstretched in front of you in your other arm
Great video as usual. I’ve actually been pondering the fact that handguns are taught backwards to everything else. Close quarters shooting (from retention) is considered an advanced skill, and the style taught to beginners is best suited to 7+ yards. Imagine if we coached basketball that way. 10yos shoot 3 pointers, and only in college you teach layups. I think there’s an argument for teaching point shooting still, if nothing else, it distills shooting down to just grip and trigger manipulation.
The teaching might be backwards to everything else, but it sure isn't backwards to shooting. The last thing you want to do when teaching someone how to shoot is to instill bad habits and a lack of skill and respect for sights, and aiming.
@@atomicsmith Hi. I don't play golf and haven't studied it so I can't comment on your golf analogy other than to say I doubt it translates well to shooting instruction. At retention distances, trigger control is not as important as it is in traditional sighted fire. Additionally, a bad grip on the gun will not make much difference either. At retention distances, it's harder to get immediate feedback on how your trigger control and grip are affecting your accuracy and the student will be less inclined to think it's important and will likely not put in as much effort to improve those. By the time the student moves to sighted fire at say 5 yards, the bad habits (or lack of good habits) will be affecting their performance and they'll have to essentially relearn how to shoot. I hope this helps.
@@davidhoffman6980 Your comment implies that it’s somehow ‘easy’ to shoot from 1-2 yards. You obviously haven’t had the humbling experience of missing at those distances. Try it and you’ll find it actually improves your shooting at distance Grip is hyper critical in retention because it’s also your aim. Trigger manipulation is fundamental to all shooting not just pistols at a certain distance. Those fundamentals are more important at close range, not less.
@@atomicsmith You learn the rules before you learn how to break them. First you shoot according to fundamentals. Then you learn what you can get away with when the situation requires.
I trained for hours quick drawing and fanning my Fanner Fifty as a kid. I was incredibly quick shooting my cap gun from the hip. I still can’t bring myself to assume that compressed ready position during or after a draw because it looks so silly.
This was the standard military training in WW2 for the 1911. You shoot one handed (it's called a handgun, not handsgun) from the hip. People think it's crazy but it's been demonstrated to be very effective at normal pistol distances.
British Special forces during WWII trained to shoot pistols from the hip. reportedly one of their instructors regularly hit playing cards at 25yds. It was a very effective technique, (As written about by WWII SF's veterans)..
When I was a patrol officer 40 years ago I had to qualify for my dept training . I was the only officer using a 9mm auto (S&W 39) . Chief of police had OK'd it and the training officer watched me empty the magazine into the xring from the hip and asked me how to do that , my response was #1 practice #2 the gun HAS to fit your hand and shoot where you look.
Because a lot of people cling to his every word like it's gospel truth while others are convinced all his ideas are outdated and useless because the Weaver stance and .45 ACP are no longer our favorites. He wrote the four rules of gun safety that we all know today, but he was also known for committing blatant safety violations and negligent discharges. He butted heads with almost everyone he worked with and drove away many of his best instructors because of his stubbornness. And his views on women and minorities have not aged well, either. He was a complicated man who left a lot for us to be grateful for and a lot that is rightly criticized. But those who see things only in black or white like to bicker over his legacy.
Thanks a bunch for doing this video. This is exactly the kind of thing I personally want to know more about especially when it comes to explaining the history of handgun (or other weapon) techniques in class
Maybe because it instilled instinctive/point shooting? Under immense pressure, panic, fear, surprise, or need for an immediate life saving response, maybe this isn't a bad way to shoot. at a threat.. If you think you're going to be finding your sights during a sphincter clenching adrenaline dump, well, good luck. Unless you're an operator, of course, which we all are because we watch UA-cam. These old timers killed a lot of bad guys in their time.
Hold up there buddy! What are you doing? This is the comments section of a gun video on UA-cam….under NO CIRCUMSTANCES are you allowed to make an intelligent and rational comment/observation like you just did. There are a lot of John Wick level experts that’ll be along any minute to run you out of here on a rail
I think this is a good reason. I switched to shooting from the hip below 10 yards in a competitive multiplayer VR shooting game because I kept loosing surprise confrontations when I brought the gun to eye level. It wasn't because bringing the pistol the eye level was too slow- it was because I was still taking the time to line the gun up with my vision even if I wasn't using the sights. Maybe if law enforcement spent more time with airsoft or something then people could figure out what works for them in different situations without using expensive ammo.
Also, coming from another younger dude who’s pretty dedicated to revolver, the sights on older service revolvers (Official Police, Army Special, M&P, New Service etc) can be pretty tough to pick up quickly, and virtually impossible in low light. The fixed rear sights are tighter than later guns and the thin front blades are more suited to 25m bullseye. You’d be surprised how effective the “FBI crouch” is with a little bit of practice. Totally unsuitable for today’s world, but for a light tapered barrel service revolver 80 years ago, possibly a lifesaver against a suspect who got the jump on you.
_Why was dueling ever a thing?_ Who thought it was honorable to line up with your adversary, face each other at 20-40 paces, take steady aim, then fire without flinching... *_THAT_* my friends was how a proper duel was held back in crazier times. None of this quickdraw nonsense we see portrayed in Western films and folklore. Sure the quickdraw duels have occurred but that was not SOP. Alas, common sense was not so common back then as it is now. Although, I use that phrase loosely. _"There is nothing more uncommon than common sense."_ *~Frank Lloyd Wright* Stay classy my friends.
Two Donald Hamilton movies featured hip shooting and one featured a formal duel with dueling pistols. The first has a slip gun--a revolver with the trigger tied back to that it can only be fan fired. The Violent Men (1955) The Big Country (1958) Donald Hamilton may be more famous as the author of 27 Matt Helm novels.
@@twentyfifthdui4717 "bad facts make bad laws" also implies that extreme circumstances result in negative outcomes. Like having a shooter that has well above average capabilities developing a technique that is actually bad for the vast majority of people, but his individual success convinces the people in charge to adopt policies that have negative long-term consequences.
It’s a viable technique, and worth practicing, for encounters at bad-breath range where you might be deflecting a weapon or punch with your weak hand.. There are downsides to modern technique, and one of them is that you’re obstructing your view of the subject’s hands at close range, while making it easier for him to grab your gun.
When Massad Ayoob began to research gunfights in the 1970's he met officers who said things like, "I can't believe that I missed him from only two feet!". His research confirmed what Jeff Cooper was teaching, that bringing the gun to eye level works much better.
Not pistol shooting but to this day the US navy requires sailors to shoot from the hip as part of the shotgun qualification. It is so stupid watching sailors trying to handle 00 buckshot from a M500 from the hip.
"if you need a scapegoat, you can probably blame J. Edgar Hoover" is a powerful quote that goes far beyond this video
I came to say this although in my heart I knew someone had already said it.
So, about that Mafia, J. Ed...
Beat me to it! He had a lot of... effects... on the world we live in.
J Edgar wore skirts
Listen bud, he just wanted to make deals with the Mob, spy on MLK and wear pretty dresses in peace.
Jelly had 19 “documented” gunfights, and several undocumented gunfights. My family is from Mountain View Oklahoma where Jelly was raised. My great Uncle served at Oklahoma City Police with Jelly. I grew up hearing Jelly stories my whole life.
I'm jelly
From what I have read of the man and some of his contemporaries, he was a deadly mother and a lot of todays 14 rounds one down type police could learn a lot from him.
Okies stay winning
@@owensthilaire8189 14:1 is an awful generous hit ratio to ascribe to police. How many times have we seen an entire department mag dump at a suspect, only for everyone to miss with all shots? Or worse, to only kill uninvolved citizens across the street?
@@ShuRugal We might be encountering confirmation bias with that one, though. How much footage or reporting do we _actually_ see involving full-on mag dumps, when in reality the ones we manage to see are a small minority compared to the reality? We just don't know anymore because our views are skewed. We only know what we see, but using that observation to encompass a totality is minimizing the probability that our assessment is inaccurate. How inaccurate are cops _really?_
Cause hips don’t lie
Damn!
Excellent
😂😅
LOL
Neither does fork
I always assumed it was a holdover from the old west days. That's really crazy that everyone looked at a dude who was a savant of handgun shooting and decided to copy his technique without testing to see how it stacked to other methods for ordinary people. Imagine looking at the guy who can do calculus in his head and deciding to throw away your calculator.
The irony is that we think of people shooting that way in the old west because of Hollywood, which, it appears, was influenced by this Jelly character. I think Wyatt Earp in his interview said that nobody who was serious shot from the hip.
Kind of like dudes buying guns and kit because they saw a picture of Delta/SEALS/HRT folks using it. The process hasn't changed, just the object
@@jongreen5638 only this was institutionalized. Probably even cost some lives, but I doubt they'll tell us.
@@jongreen5638 this isn't really the same, because the guns and kit can be liquidated, and it can be reasonably learned. Anybody with decently working eyes good enough to drive a car and the ability to hold a rifle COULD learn to shoot at night and do all that kind of stuff if they had the time and range resources.
I don't think most people could do what jelly did if they had their whole lives to try. You can teach someone to shoot at night good enough to be able to do it on their own in like one range session. There's a lot more to learn, but it's a different world than missing by feet because there's one magic guy out there.
@@superfamilyallosauridae6505 My point is that it's blind imitation of the "cool guy." In spirit, it's little different than someone spending $10,000 on a night fighting setup, when they lack a range to train with it on, and live in a urban area that is never more dark enough to really need nods anyway. Sure, point shooting was worse. But imitating the cool guy for the sake of imitation is human nature, with predictable outcomes.
This is precisely the kind of question for which Jeff Cooper got together with friends and founded the Bear Valley Gunslingers - to learn and distill which techniques best served pistol operators. Point shooting was soon relegated to the dustbin in favor of sighted fire. Good stuff as usual, Chris B, thanks!!
Yep, Orange Gunsite.
@FirstLast-hs4gw just wanted you to know I really enjoyed reading your comment. I'm not what's considered young & I can hit short range targets from the hip.
Hip shooting and point shooting are two different things
@@jona5517 100% right !
As it should. Hip/point firing is trash.
Sometimes it works. My first dead body call as a southern California firefighter in 1978 was an officer involved shooting (who later became police chief). He was investigating a suspicious person in the parking lot of a no tell motel. The perp popped up from between cars and fired at the officer with a .32 at about 10 yards. As the rounds hit all around the officer on the wall behind him he drew a 6" 357 from the hip and fired 3 rounds. I examinded the body later and it had 3 hits, one flesh wound just outside the left
shoulder, another in the left side of the neck and one in the center of the chest with a big exit wound in the back.
@@FirstLast-hs4gwI think you might have missed the point. The point was that a bullet will kill you no matter what the stance is, but that it’s far easier, more efficient, and less costly to train most people to hit their targets by bringing the gun to their center field of vision than trying to get people to adopt a strategy and training regimen that’s far more costly and difficult to gain proficiency at.
Did this officer get his badge bent? Or was the badge already bent?
And at that range, the group should be fist-sized if they actually aimed properly. Shooting professionally is all about accountability.
@@mahbuddykeith1124I think they did aim correctly they successfully hit all three shots while under fire.You are an armchair gunfighter. I've never been in a gunfight but it's kinda obvious you haven't either I doubt anybody worried about. " fist sized"groupings while underfire.
@@AnthonyPiranio-w7g You should have seen the comment that replied to me a couple days ago, saying something to the measure of “fist-sized at that range is atrocious”. Granted, yes, 10 yards and in should be inch-sized groups on the flat range, but I was being generous to account for adrenaline and stress.
No, I have never been in a gunfight; an infanteer’s job is to close in with and destroy the enemy, yes, but why would I want to be in one? That said, the training I have received is centred around close protection, delivered by people who, in their line of work, have in one way or another. Colourful anecdotes about sniffing the clamprints of famous people aside, the common theme of what they teach is that you should be accountable for each shot you take and be absolutely sure of what you are going to hit before breaking it. As such, I am a proponent of holding oneself to an increasingly higher standard rather than accept “good enough”. Yes, they hit their mark, but could they have done better?
My California sheriffs dept employer trained us with two-handed hip shooting at the 7 yard line, back in 1973-74, before dropping this in favor of aimed shooting. Around this same time I was following Jeff Cooper's advice, Weaver stance, etc., and never looked back.
Two handed hip shooting?
Weird.
Jack Weaver's stance is another example of copying something that worked for one exceptional individual, without thinking about whether it was appropriate for most shooters.
I love reading comments from cops or whatever that served before the 1980s talking about shot placement, when they weren't even trained to use their iron sights lol.
Modern shooter: _"I can't hit anything shooting from the hip."_
Ghost of Jelly Bryce: _"Get gud noob."_
@@libra7624 You do realize you just committed pointless verbal bloviation on a joke post that was really just to engage the algorithm, right? Or do you think I really talk to ghosts and they use video gamer speak to comment on modern trends?
Jelly Bryce killed men and was lightening fast while shooting from "the hip". A deadly gunfighter.
@@Rustebadge Funny. That was the content of most of the video. Will you tell me the sky is blue now?
It is like learning to throw fastball over the plate. Need lots of practice. Curve ball even more practice.
Somebody has to buy the ammo.
As for the two fist? Make sense if you are wearing armor. One hand behind a big tree if you are not.
But the best training? Hunt deer with a pistol on foot. No ambush shots.
Again somebody has to buy the practice ammo. Oh and it also needs to be the same as the field ammo and the carry piece.
Like; How do I get to Carnegie Hall. Practice.
But if I am carrying a rifle don't count on beating a rifle with a pistol. Had a lot more practice with a rifle.
Depending on the rifle design just looking down the barrel is good enough. ARs are not good for that. Hence the need for auto bullet spitting.
I can guarantee will hit a 300 meter target with a 3 round auto burst with a M-4. Our with one round with a M-14. No fancy sites needed.
600 meters? Well no coffee for 3 days and 4 by 10 scope and a M-14.
On the two way range. The one that sees the target last looses.
Are you jelly?
There were a couple of times in my LE career where I instinctively drew hip point on a suspect. At close quarters it's practical. It also prevents a suspect from grabbing at your gun. The trick to shooting hip point within five yards is to not to aim, but to look at your target. The gun will follow your eyes. Its like pointing a finger. Should that have been the FBI standard? No, but it is a technique that can be trained and used for certain close quarter situations.
Great explanation and can certainly be trained. Focus on the target and point your finger at it! It works!
Exactly like shooting a bow. You look at the spot you intend the arrow to hit, and through repeated practice you'll hit the mark every time. As a revolver carrying cop I trained constantly with hip shooting making up about 60% of my training. As stated above, its like pointing your finger while never looking at the finger, but looking at what you're pointing to. It IS effective.
@@anangryranger From what I've studied about Brice, he developed his technique from gunfights in hotel rooms, hallways and cramped alleyways. It's definitely a valid close quarters technique.
I always wondered why hip-level firing isn't more talked about in modern gun community for really very close quarters encounters. Seems like a logical technique, even if hard to master.
Defensive shooters do still use versions of a one-handed, low-hold, unsighted technique for extreme close distances. Extreme is important here, because for anything beyond three-ish yards you will always- ALWAYS, without exception, unequivocally- be faster and more accurate getting two hands on the gun and bringing it to eye level. I am being emphatic here because unless you have a disability or something else about you that is biomechanically different from the average human, it is a physiological impossibility for hip fire to outperform modern sighted fire even at five yards.
The one valid method that is still used today is a special-purpose technique that involves rocking the gun out of the holster with a locked wrist, pinning the arm against the side of the chest, rolling the gun outboard with the butt anchored against the ribs, and aiming with your entire torso as a locked single unit, tank turret-style. At contact distance, it is not only the fastest but usually the ONLY way to defeat an attacking opponent. Beyond contact distance, it is useless.
My grandfather was trained like this as a sheriff's deputy in Maine in the 70's! (Maine is not known for being up with the times.) It worked for him the one time in his 40 years he had to shoot. 10 feet away one shot stop on a rifle wielding bad guy. Draw and shoot from the hip with a Ruger security 6.
The technique reminds me of the opening of a Bond film.
The technique actually jumped the pond before WW2 and was taught to the British SOE.
Since Dr No was made in 62, it would be 20 years before the technique would be revised. By that point, the intro was too iconic to change.
@@kevinfelton689plus Bond isn't just some dude who went to basic training. Even in a world where hip fire isn't practical for the average shooter, it's not too hard to believe that Bond is better than average.
William Fairbairn wrote a book about shooting techniques. His techniques influenced the Allies' military and intelligence agencies.
@@davidhoffman6980 In the books, Bond is specifically mentioned as being an expert pistol marksman.
@@ianfinrir8724 so he's the kind of guy who could make it work.
Don't forget the influence of Bill Jordan and "No Second Place Winner" on hip shooting.
An excellent book on the thinking of his time.
Fairburn also had a bit of his book Guter Fighting where he taught point shooting, but he made it clear it was for 5 yards and in, and only for emergencies like a grapple or ambush, where the top priority is to start getting shots out immediately before you are killed.
Point or instinct shooting was highly touted in the various gun magazines back in the 70s.
My brother was an awesome street fighter, and I never understood it. I always ended up on the floor. One day he told me that when the sh-- goes down everything gets real slow and he found it easy to dodge and land punches. Years later I heard Keith Hernandez say that when a hitter is hot and "in the zone" everything slows down and they can see the spin of the ball.
The book "on killing" had a part if I remember the author talked about some of his martial arts training and how they worked to activate that instinct "on command". In my personal dangerous, hard-knock life if I keep a cool head I can generally get it to trigger when I'm going for a risky one-tap shotgun or sniper headshot in Fortnite(tm).
Takes years to develop that skill
It sounds stupid (because it is), but there was one day I was playing some FPS game and it felt to me like everything just slowed down. I was wandering around popping everyone in the game for a period of a minute or two like it was nothing. It never happened again, not over years. I don't really understand it.
@@Nipah.AuauauOn Killing is such a great underrated book. I read it before I went to Iraq in '04.
Ultra instinct?
A very large Canadian police service I worked for taught a version of this until about 1997. “Point shooting” with both a revolver and shotgun were a thing!
The Navy teaches hip-firing a shotgun still.
Then again, if you have to use a shotgun in the Navy, the best technique is "point the scattergun down the passageway and make the bad guys go away with ricochet."
@@nsahandler Well the navy's gonna need to start teaching everyone skeet shooting techniques for drones now.
@@walnzell9328
We have the Wiz
I was taught hip firing a long time ago when I first started with handgun shooting. Later we transitioned to modern techniques. I've quickdrawn and fired just out of the holster at the hip on prairie dogs running across my path 6-10 foot away. Hit most. 686 4" 125 gr jhp .357's. It's not that it's ineffective, it's just much more difficult to get good at because of the time it takes. What I found was the fluidity of the hip firing method made transitioning to two hands at eye level really easy. Hip firing for so long also helped me understand that fighting doesn't always, if ever, go the way you planned. We've got to be able to fight and win when conditions aren't perfect, and that sometimes you won't have the benefit of using both hands or being able to raise your gun to eye level. Train perfectly perfect, but also perfectly train imperfectly. Don't be a statute, be dynamic.
I to went through that experience. Point shooting was my first revolver experience after iron sight shooting with a rifle. Got very good at it. I found as I aged glasses have hindered my shooting unless I wear my readers, which leaves to target a total blur. The squat seen in the demo footage, was intended to make the shooter a smaller target, not really taught today.
Hit most my ass
Hahahahha
@@TheTrueNorth11You can’t hit anything even if you look down the barrel sooooo
Yeah they use the current modern way of shooting and most cops can’t hit anything . So…..
@@panchopistola8298 Ok….?
When I learned it in the 80s, we were shooting from what was called the bent elbow position, from the 3 yard line, without the exaggerated crouch, as demonstrated by the Montebello and Huntington Beach Officers in your video 10:20, Everyone in my academy class had could hit the target consistently on the first day. It wasn't particularly difficult and was very effective at close range where it may not have been possible to bring the gun up much higher. It stopped being a part of our program in the mid 90s. Kinda think it should still be. Not criticizing the shoulder point shooting we moved to, but don't think its a huge lift to have that muscle memory if you need it.
Point shooting at 3 yards is perfectly reasonable. 10 yards? Probably 10x as difficult.
It was the same when I went through the Orange Country Sheriff's Academy in '79-80. The reality is that most gunfights still take place at less than 7 yards, or even 3. I should add that we trained first on the 25 yard ASC course, and then adding the PPC course. I wrote, "adding" because we alternated which course we were shooting on different days. It seems to me that many agencies and trainers have forgotten that "old" style shooting like the Camp Perry style or ASC type courses are the best for teaching and retaining the fundamentals of shooting. As Masaad Ayoob has pointed out, modern policing with high capacity mags actually has the same or higher miss ratio than when cops were carrying 6 shooters.
During my 30 year professional career, I was taught to hip fire both a revolver and semiauto pistol from 5 yards and in to the one yard line on the range. Also, point-shooting (using the front sight only) at closer distances in from the 25.
Using the front sight isn't point shooting
@@ReverendMeat51 .. and your professional training and experience is ... ?
@@5.56MediaHe doesn't need any, because either way he's right. By definition, using the sights in any fashion is not point shooting. I'm not disagreeing with your experience or skills- those stand on their own- but from a terminology perspective, what you were doing was unequivocally not point shooting. Certainly sounds like it was good shooting, maybe even better than my shooting- but not point shooting.
That technique is also used in shooting the AK 47. Just using the front sight.It's more effective than people would think.
I played around with hip firing about 35 yrs ago and got pretty good at it! I had lot's of range time and a terrific Smith and Wesson model 17. (.22 in a K frame) I didn't know any of this history but was likely just imitating old movies I'd seen. It was surprising how, with some practice, hitting multiple cans at 5 to 7 yards was entirely possible.
So warm and fuzzy, I started in law-enforcement in 1983. I had the hottest ticket at the time a four inch smith and wesson 686. “Combat Crouch” was taught and required for qual/re-qual. It wasn’t that difficult really the furthest was 7 yards if I remember right, then we went to sighted fire. The final stage on the modified PPC course was six rounds at 50 yards. The howling and crying we would hear today if officers had to shoot 6 rounds all DA from a stock revolver at 50 yards. It was a different time.
Indeed it was, but our shots fired to perps down ratio was 3. Instead of mag dumps today. We simply were better shots with cooler heads in those days...period
There was a lot of howling about shooting at 50 yards back in the 60s too.
What was your group at 7 yards with the crouching hip fire?
I could stay in 5-7 inches inside the bottle. Horrific sounding at that distance I know. But scorable hits. After the draw move the pistol to the centerline of the body. Don’t try to do it by just drawing and crouching. Not real practical with where we’re at today but fun to try. But a lot of what we use to do was not real practical like making us shoot for practice and Qual with powder puff semi wadcutters. Then issuing our 18 plus P rounds for duty.
I can still , at 59 years old , keep a tin can bouncing with hip shots. Although I now practice it with a Ruger Single Six..22lr.
here is a story that you can believe or not, but it's true.. I was walking up my driveway with my brother in law when he almost was struck by a rattle snake.
the snake coiled and raised it's head as I drew my revolver and almost cut it in half just before it struck. I hit it just behind it's jaw..Terry never even saw the snake until
After I had killed it. But please understand, I have literally practiced this type of shooting my entire shooting life, My Father was a Gunnery Sgt. So I grew up with firearms.
It is pretty much just muscle memory at this point.
Bob Taubert was another FBI agent that put emphasis on more of reflexive shooting than solely hip shooting. I took a course based on his teachings years ago. Most of us in the course did find a noticeable difference in speed shooting that way at 5 yd and in, some even to 7 yd. By 10 yd everyone wanted the pistol eye level and the timers and targets reflected that. What's interesting is the reflexive shooting techniques that were taught by Taubert have some similarities with the target focused shooting more readily allowed by red dots, but still possible with iron sights. I actually found that reflexive shooting practice was handy when I switched to red dots, as I had already spent the time to build a body index with a pistol.
Over aiming is big deal. It would be malpractice to train people for gunfighting and not have them practice different levels of sight confirmation. You really need to be confident using something in between hip shooting and the 100% perfect sight picture.
What was the accuracy standard that was good enough at 5 yards? Was it all clustered closely on or around the heart or was it just anywhere on a silhouette?
Even at 5 yards if your hits are all over the silhouette vs a ragged hole in the heart when using sights then I don't think the speed advantage is worth it.
@@Treblaine accuracy standard was an 8” diameter circle centered on the upper torso. Outside of that didn’t count.
@@Murphy82nd that's a good standard, an 8 inch circle centered on the upper torso is a close approximation of the area covering the heart, the aortic arch and the largest blood vessels of the lungs.
Maybe hip fire has some place.
I was a LEO 30 years ago for 8 years and I fired 300 rounds a week. We practiced relentlessly and our shooting / hit record was
Damn good. Instinctive shooting was our standard and it worked at close range. We also carried ..Model 10 S&W .38 Spls which simply are the best "point shooting" sidearms ever made.
The S&W Model 10 is nimble as an Olympic figure skater and points like a pure-bred bird dog.
I've also found the 4" tapered barrel Model 10 an extremely good pointer. As well as the Luger and Browning Model 1910. They all shoot right where you're looking.
Third best. After the P-08 and P-38 Lugers.
P-38 is Walther@@santamanone
@@santamanone The fact that I own a Model 10-5 and a CZ 75 BD. Both are great point shooters. The Walther P.38 isn't great like you said, which I ALSO own. I don't know what you're talking about. That Walther got a horrible grip. It's like holding a block.
I learned hip shooting in 1977 in the academy. Out to 3 yards we used hip shooting. Back at 5 yards it was two handed shooting but still below your line of sight. At 7 yards it was two-hands, eye level. And we learned it. We shot well. We qualified. I'm not Jelly Brice, but I still mastered what we called Point Shooting. It takes good instruction and practice, but it is easily mastered, within reason of distance.
I started my LEO career in the mid-1980’s with a 4” Smith k frame. Within 5 yards, nothing was more effective than Jelly’s technique. That didn’t hold up once we moved to Beretta 92’s. Now that I am retired and carry a J frame, I practice Jelly’s method all the time and feel great about it.
Why do you think it didn’t hold up for the semi-auto?
@@ES1976-3 semi autos are prone to jamming if you don't brace it and hold it more stiffly.
If it ain’t broke, right?
You are correct sir. Most semi-auto's don't point naturally from a depressed (lower) position.
@@craigdamageThe pistols I have P10C and Hellcat, do not jam even if I really limp wrist it, but fails to lock open at last round. Only the LCP Max had this issue, along other issues, I don't really trust it. But most pistols aren't like this.
My two cents, I wonder how much of it, at least the phase one version of the 1920s-30s was born out of people who had fought in the first world war when they had go get into the other guy's trench and they didn't have the space to fully extend their arm to shoot their handgun (for those who had them) and so the "hip style"
Actually, Fairbairn and Sykes modeled their handgun shooting techniques after observing Shanghai police during actual raids.
Anticipating incoming fire, they all crouched some. The two-handed technique was far into the future, so having the pistol in hand, held at hip level to avoid grabs worked.
The lads created the first Hogan’s Alley emphasizing speed and accuracy.
@@DoctorQuackenbush Not surprising. Shanghai slums weren't very roomy.
As usual Chris, you put out an excellent video. I really enjoy the videos you put out, and the style in which you put them together. Even on videos where I’m not especially interested in the subject, I almost always learn something interesting and/or helpful. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
i gotta say that regardless of everything those timelapse photos of bryce look amazing
Was really hoping for a Chris Jellybean Baker cosplay demonstration
Missed opportunity. Maybe they'll have a manny mansfield x jelly video some day😅
Maybe if Garand Thumb get a hold of this lol
Paul Harrell already did it.
@@eddiememphis1I was just coming here to say that lol
name not even mentioned that was more instrumental in police training that continues to this day is William E. Fairbairn. In his hundreds of encounters, he was first to put put into training "he who fires first even if he misses usually wins."
I carry a 2" Colt Detective Special and practice quick draw and firing from the hip. I'm accurate out to 7 yards. Anything beyond that will require eye level and lining up the sights. However, as a civilian I am of the opinion that if I ever encounter a threat that is at distance that requires careful aim, that is a distance away in which simple evasion might likely be my best choice as a defensive measure.
Your videos are incredible man everyone is a banger. Especially ones like this I love videos going over old firearms use and tactics in America to now its so interesting to see what we used to do.
Thanks!
Great stuff! Funny thing I've never heard of him, actually I'm surprised about that. In the Marines in 82 we started a close combat pistol course mostly for Marine guards. The 4th and final stage 7yds 10 rounds 2 mags with a 45 and flap holster. Had to draw hip level chamber a round shoot 5 change mag fire last 5 in 10 seconds. As an instructor we told them to squat as they draw and keep their arms parallel to the ground and watch the impact of the bullet and adjust if needed. Everything was two hands except the first stage, 25 yard barricade 5 right hand from behind right side of barricade reload 5 over the top two hands then 5 left hand left side. I'm thinking it was around 60 second time limit it was plenty of time for a 45 but us instructors had to also qualify with a 38 revolver and hand reloading was hard you had to be fast. We used the FBI silhouette target of a 6ft man drawing with the right hand. It was a great course! I left the Marines and Pu'uloa rifle range Ewa Beach Hi in 83.
Paul Harrell once shot from the hip wearing boomer clothes in a boomer fudd like firing stance as a joke, predictably it was ineffective but it was hilarious
Maybe the slower, larger calibers popularized at the time made seeing them in-air and getting a feel for your arc much more easy, therefore it enabled an unorthodox but still muscle-memory trained aiming style.
Yes, that was definitely part of it. Bryce didn't use a .38 Spl like most, I believe he mostly used a .44 Spl or .45 Colt (can't remember which) and that would certainly make it easier to track the bullets
1:41 What I'm guessing are 45 ACP coming out of that 1911 almost look like tracers to me, so it's possible some bigger, slower rounds could be seen. Mf must have eaten his carrots!
I think we're all taking Jelly Bryce a little too literally here. Regardless of how good his eyes were, human visual acuity is not really able to actually see and track a bullet inflight without the aid of tracers (like in the WWII training video, those were actual .45 tracers) or some bizarrely uncommon lighting conditions. Even the slowest-moving .38 wadcutters are still going too fast for you to actually see and comprehend. I think we are meant to assume that he had such good proprioception and coordination that he could mentally visualize the path of his rounds, which is certainly more plausible and still very impressive.
@@its_clean I think it was less to do with eyesight as it was understanding distance and position of his weapon and body. Do something long enough and you are usually going to get good at it.
I notice that when a good camera is lined up right behind or next to the barrel, you can clearly see the bullet and the wake it leaves in the air. I wonder if maybe he had a mutation in his eye that let him see with less motion blur
Exhibit A: the BAR hip shooter belt (a metal clasp that fit the stock of a BAR for assaulting movements on fortified positions, intended to be fired from the literal hip)
One thing that aimed fire practice doesn't typically account for is the natural, intense focus on an actual threat, rather than the sights, during a stressful encounter. So practicing point shooting at short distance could be a beneficial skill to develop. Oh, and Taran Butler.
Exactly. People forget the adrenaline dump. Point shooting is fine for 25 yards in. As I’m not a police officer it’s very unlikely I’m shouting at longer ranges. If I am the sure I likely have more time for aiming.
@@tufelhunden5795 I would say perhaps it's not for everyone, and routine practice is a necessity. I got pretty good shooting at less than 5 yd at one point, I could put holes pretty much where I was looking. But it took lots of practice.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. First, Taran Butler is an outlier in the data. He doesn't represent what the average shooter can achieve with good quality training. Even the people he trains for years aren't as good as him.
Second, pistol sights still work when you are target focused as well. They aren't as accurate as they are when you use front sight focus, but they are still way more accurate than hip fire and you can get accurate follow up shots much quicker because you can have a secure two handed grip and consciously correct for the muzzle flip.
For any technique to hold up in high stress situations requires lots of training, but it does work as evidenced by the results: troops train to move, shoot and reload while getting shot at. Pilots train to refuel in mid air in bad weather when their lives and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment is at stake. UFC fighters are able to execute difficult fighting techniques while being watched by tens of thousands of people, having prize money, and titles at stake. If you're going to train to the point that you can perform under pressure, then there's no advantage outside of arms reach to hip fire over two handed sighted fire. This is especially true since most shootings take place in crowded urban centers where the likelihood of hitting bystanders is higher than in the country.
@@davidhoffman6980I was going to write a long reply to OP but I don't need to anymore. Everyone just needs to read what you wrote because this is the answer. Taran is the exception that proves the rule, not the example to be followed. And you'll note that while his hip shooting demonstrations are impressive, he has never used that technique in any legitimate competition with cash on the table. Says all you need to know: even the most famous modern hip shooter still uses traditional sighted fire when it counts.
@@davidhoffman6980You make good points, but I disagree most with what constitutes high stress training.
First, I mentioned Taran Butler because he illustrates what is humanly possible with point shooting (point shooting being a spectrum of technique ranging from hip shooting to looking over the sights without aligning them). TB is A-zone accurate and super fast out to several yards. I believe mere mortals who are determined to practice can achieve sufficient accuracy to several (say 5-15) feet, and be reasonably fast.
The potential problem with sighted fire is that the vast majority of shooters, including those who shoot competitively, do not train or engage targets with sufficient stress in order to be reliable in adrenaline-dump, tunnel-vision inducing, life-threatening encounters. That type of training is typically limited to high level law enforcement and military.
The main issue is whether training is of sufficient quality and repetition so that it can override instinctual human responses. And these responses can be highly variable among different people, even with identical training.
This is where I think point shooting can be beneficial because it assumes a worse-case, target-focused stress response from the beginning. I practiced with it at one time and was happy with the accuracy achieved at shorter distance combat ranges. I shot some IPSC back in the day, but mostly conventional outdoor pistol (bullseye) and was fairly proficient with sighted fire from 25 to 50 yards. It's a great sport for developing absolute fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control. I just think it's fine to have several tools at your disposal.
Every time I look for which ammo types I'd like to carry, I always see if Lucky Gunner has reviewed its ballistics and history. Always a great resource, this is a fine reminder of that.
We, Former US Air Force security policeman were taught the hip shooting stance in training. Remember that we were armed with the S& W M15 combat master piece, 38 cal. With 110 gr. FMJ.
7:49 - I can understand that. My first match outside; I could see some of the bullets heading towards targets. It was weird because I wanted to use them to aim instead of the sights - stick with your sights.
Technics evolve, been shooting handguns for 60 years, am now using a modified weaver stance that works really well for me.
Chapman?
I'm fair at it at 15 yards. Real good at 7 yards. Old school. Trained that way.
Florida still has hip shooting as part of their qualification course for LE, Corrections, etc. I am one of the etc. We use the local Sherrif's office range for our qualifications. Due to the design of the range the closest we can get for the hip shooting portion is 3 yards. Hip shooting is hard at that range, especially with a time limit enforced by turning targets. We have been told to use the first hip shot to find where you are hitting to make corrections for the follow up shots. It works, but you lose at least one round from your score unless you are lucky. Our minimum score to qualify is actually higher then for LEO, so losing rounds in any stage of the qualification is less than ideal.
How do you see the holes in the guys clothes? Don't bullets pass through clothes without leaving the clean, distinctive holes that they leave in cardboard or stretched paper? Wouldn't this be especially challenging if the suspect is moving around or if his clothes move?
@@davidhoffman6980 In real life the clothes bunch up and actually get sucked into the guys wounds. So you can see it. Also there is a lot of splash back which for some reason never shows up clearly on cameras.
In real life though you really only shoot from the hip to speed rock, and that is used when you are basically at contact distances. Modern tactics say to draw knife instead of handgun at these close ranges, but it is of course contextual. Knives do not stop people anywhere near as quickly as a gun or even a fist to the head.
@@DaveSmith-cp5kjI think the whole "knife is faster inside 7 yards" trend was a misunderstanding of the Tueller demonstration. Yes, a person charging you with a knife inside 7 yards will get to you before you get yo your gun. That is not the same as saying that within 7 yards you should attempt to draw your knife instead of your gun. Drawing either weapon will take you the same amount of time- certainly longer if your knife is a folder. And you're correct that outside some very specific attacks, a knife incapacitates slower than a gun, and is also difficult to use effectively without a fairly advanced level of training. So you really are still better off going for your gun regardless of distance.
In my observation, the industry has moved on from that brief fad and no one really trains to go for the knife inside 7 yards anymore. At contact distance, speed rock is king.
@@its_clean The knife use at close range isn't about being faster, it is about the fact you can be disarmed or prevented from even drawing your gun from the holster. The current doctrine is to not draw your gun within arms reach which has rendered the speed rock "outdated". However I still subscribe to the speed rock if you have control of the clinch.
I think that the cheek pistol concept is a similar or modern parallel questionably useful/effective technique that's predicated on the skill of a single, outstanding shooter which is hard to train and use for the average person.
I as hoping Manny Mansfield was going to make an appearance in this video
Manny is Modern Technique guy, for sure.
@@nathanjames7030 Nah! Fudds like Manny are die hards for old school
I'm pretty sure that's him at 6:37
@@trackrat62 damn!!!..you might be right!!!
Or even better, Jayne Mansfield😅
36 yrs ago I trained at Thunder ranch,then in TX.
We worked mostly from modified Weaver,and fire from eye level.
“situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.” Any fighting system that has the techniques dictating anything should raise a huge red flag. - Roger Phillips
Jim Cirillo was amazing at it! I watched him shoot better from the hip than many can do from a proper stance. That said, he's not the average shooter!
Though people stopped training it, it can still be a valid technique for those who are capable and practiced. I once witnessed my father quick draw his 1911, hip fire a single shot, and decapitate a rattlesnake that was about 5' away while he was standing sidehill with his deer rifle still in his left hand. I still have his Naval Expert Pistol Marksman medals and trophies, and I can verify that he was extremely proficient with both the Bullseye and single-hand hip shooting techniques. As they say, "God created men, Col. Colt made them equal." Perhaps some men are more equal than others. 🤷♂
+1 for featuring Craig Douglas, one of my favorite trainers. BTW good site to order ammo from, we got a good deal and quick delivery.
_"Yo homie, that my briefcase?"_
I've commented to friends that I can sorta see my bullets leave the gun and they've told me it's impossible. Good to hear someone else seemed to believe they could too.
"See faster" sounds like an old Captain America comic lol
This technique is something I've practiced extensively, and I've always been puzzled at the claims of ineffectiveness. It's easily possible to develop a very high level of accuracy out to seven yards. Past very short range you definitely want to use sighted fire. Hip shooting is for when there's no time to bring the gun to eye level. I started with a pellet gun revolver, moved on to a 2" barrel .22 revolver, and eventually I was able to easily make consistent head shots with a .44 Magnum. It's also an excellent way to use the sawn-off shotgun. I realize most people don't go to the trouble of legally owning or carrying such a weapon, but it's absolutely devastating inside 15 yards, and firing it from the hip is a very good way to deal with the heavy recoil. I did have a substantial advantage in practice few people would ever be able to do. For a while I worked in a large retail store as their armorer and gunsmith, and on weekends I would operate the shooting simulator room because I was the only one who could keep the temperamental CO2 gas powered simulator conversions going in the guns. The conversion provides highly realistic recoil and cycling, and the guns then emit infrared laser beams that register on the targets projected from an overhead camera on an entire wall of the room. A very expensive and uncommon system that was developed for police and military training. So I had free unlimited ultra realistic practice for hours at a time every weekend for a couple years. Eventually I could draw smiley faces on the targets from the hip, which I have to admit I delighted in showing off. I also got very good with two handguns simultaneously. It's mostly a stunt, but it is workable. A very unusual training opportunity few would ever have. But you could also do it at home for very low cost with airsoft guns. Anyway, hip shooting definitely works extremely well at short range. But it does indeed require extensive practice and also has to be maintained. If you can master it, it's a formidable technique enabling you to instantly score very rapid hits drawing from the holster with powerful heavy recoiling guns. Somehow it's much easier to shoot at speed from the hip. The critical thing is to keep the gun on the centerline of your body with it in the bottom of your field of vision. Eventually you'll be doing that unconsciously. You then keep it locked in that position, elbow firmly against you, and index on the target by rotating or bending your entire body. The elbow of the shooting arm must be firm against you. Otherwise you have no sense of where the gun is in relation to anything else.
In Australia we have a pistol match called 'Service Pistol' that has a 12 shot stage (6 shots, reload, 6 shots) at 7 yards that requires the gun to be held below shoulder height and shot instinctively without using the sights. Perfect scores are often shot.
Love hearing about history. Good stuff
Rex Applegate had a lot to do with that old school style as well. His book "Kill or get Killed" is worth picking up if you can find a copy.
A little disappointed you didn’t mention Bill Jordan. I would argue that his influence was just as, if not more important, in the staying power of “point shooting” as Bryce.
Bill Jordan was also perhaps one of the most influential figures in the long life of the service revolver among American police, and put off the widespread adoption of autoloaders until the 1980s.
When I was a young man, I spent some time with Rex Applegate, who trained my boss in WW2 in the OSS. Instinctive point shooting was the method I was taught, along with some of his hand to hand fighting moves that we may need to use in our line of work that put us in some dangerous situations
What an interesting topic! I'm old enough to remember the PR/Hollywood presentations in those hip shooting days (and experienced enough to realize why that is a technique I never tried). Thanks for putting this up.
J Edgar hoover the cross dressers favorite 😂😂😂😂
Big fan of the historical topics. Keep them coming.
👍
You can shoot from the hip in New Jersey on April 13th at the "TV Land Cop Show" competition at Shongum Sportsman assoc. Each event requires 25 rounds, 10 from FBI crouch at 7 yards, 5 off hand w/ strong hand only reload 5 weak, 5 two hand standing. The stages are named after old cop tv shows. You are required to use the same or similar models from the shows\movies they are named after. Dragnet 2" S&W 38, 007 Walther PP,PPK,PPK\S there are 18 different events. I"ll post the flyer on my page. Its a fun event
Dirty Harry wrist-breaker 44 Magnum?
Yes, it is difficult, and as you said, that's probably why it wasn't the best thing for the masses. The masses don't want to put in the work to perfect a technique like that. Having done so since I was a child (literally) I can say that it is effective if one is willing to put the work into it. I learned it because it was the best way to shoot in some of the games we played as kids. Yes, I said games and kids and guns in the same sentence. Funny thing is, none of us ever got shot or died in the process. Most of these games involved hitting a single Target multiple times while it was moving. It is also much easier with a modern semi-automatic than it was with an old school revolver. Most of us could do the same with a rifle as well. And it is actually faster. The second video clip you showed proves that plus the additional time of dropping down into that stance as opposed to the old Gunslinger Style which requires much less rigidity in stance and body movement. You can reach out and pick something up without looking at it. With proper training your gun should be an extension of your arm in the same way that you can point your finger at something pretty damn accurately you can learn to do the same thing with a gun that principle seems to be lost in most training
It makes sense against an attacker with no gun. Say you are in a classy scene where the tools are checked at the door, it pays to have a snubby and be on the side of the man.
Very interesting, great information, thanks for researching this topic
Being that I've fired from the hip with a saw it's understandable lol. Just facing your enemy naturally brings your hips in line. Not very accurate though
Still an option real close up.
It forced JMB to design an auto-loader with superior ergonimics and an excellent trigger.
@@macriggland6526Indeed, the Colt Woodsman is a pistol.
@@macriggland6526this is true
Very informative. When I went through my state's police academy in 1989, part of our firearms instruction was hip shooting verses two-handed shooting at eye level. Very few of us could get center mass hits beyond five yards. Our instructors and our firearms manuals all taught two hands on the handgun, double action only, use the front sight. We got chewed out if the instructors saw us putting spent brass in our pockets, and would a stern lecture about dying with spent brass in our pockets like the CHIPS at Newhall. Enjoyed your video about Newhall as well.
The pocketing brass thing is a myth. None of the slain Newhall officers were found with brass in their pockets, and one of the responding officers explicitly reported finding brass dumped on the ground next to the fallen officers' cruiser.
CHP did change their training policy on pocketing/bucketing brass after the incident, but this was incidental and not in response to anything the Newhall officers actually did on the day.
Urban legends die hard, but especially so when people keep repeating them, so let's not do that.
Another thing the FBI , in general, and J. Edgar Hoover in particular, has to answer for.
J Edgar found it hard to draw and accurately shoot in an evening dress and heels.
He passed away several decades ago. Might be time to move on…
@@Chiller11based
@@BrokenBarBox Not if his successors are the same political animals using the same un constitutional methods.
I'll say it again, this is the best firearm channel on UA-cam. Thank you, Chris!
Thanks!
It’s ok if you have superior hand to eye coordination. Most of us don’t.
You can actually get pretty damn good at hip firing. The army used to teach it to green berets in Vietnam, and they could shoot coins out of the air
You would think that after surviving the first half dozen gunfights you would switch to a shotgun whenever your spidey senses started acting up.
I always did!!
When the hair on the back of you neck starts tingling, your first choice is not a handgun!
Works well with the Baughman Quickdraw sight on my model 15 combat masterpiece, my grandfather was a pro at it, he taught all us boys.
AF security police were armed with the S&W M15 Combat Master
It's actually really easy....when you have a laser 😂
Was popularised by Fairburn and Sykes as the 'Shanghai Position' in the 30s. Based on their experience in close quarter fighting as part of the Shanghai Special Police.
It is still viable if you're Taran Butler
Or if you're Jellybean Bryce. 😂
This is honestly fascinating. Great vid!
Seems utterly amazing that you not only be involved in 19 gun fights, but win each one.
To be fair, most of them would be better described as "shootings." Not sure if it counts as a gunfight if the other guy doesn't get a chance to fire
@@LuckyGunner Makes you wonder what a body cam would shed light on. Good shootings? Justified?
You should do the old world officer stance we're you hold one arm behind your back and hold the gun fully outstretched in front of you in your other arm
Great video as usual.
I’ve actually been pondering the fact that handguns are taught backwards to everything else. Close quarters shooting (from retention) is considered an advanced skill, and the style taught to beginners is best suited to 7+ yards. Imagine if we coached basketball that way. 10yos shoot 3 pointers, and only in college you teach layups. I think there’s an argument for teaching point shooting still, if nothing else, it distills shooting down to just grip and trigger manipulation.
The teaching might be backwards to everything else, but it sure isn't backwards to shooting. The last thing you want to do when teaching someone how to shoot is to instill bad habits and a lack of skill and respect for sights, and aiming.
@@davidhoffman6980 why would teaching close shooting instill bad habits etc? Do you think golfers that practice putting have bad habits for driving?
@@atomicsmith Hi. I don't play golf and haven't studied it so I can't comment on your golf analogy other than to say I doubt it translates well to shooting instruction. At retention distances, trigger control is not as important as it is in traditional sighted fire. Additionally, a bad grip on the gun will not make much difference either. At retention distances, it's harder to get immediate feedback on how your trigger control and grip are affecting your accuracy and the student will be less inclined to think it's important and will likely not put in as much effort to improve those. By the time the student moves to sighted fire at say 5 yards, the bad habits (or lack of good habits) will be affecting their performance and they'll have to essentially relearn how to shoot.
I hope this helps.
@@davidhoffman6980 Your comment implies that it’s somehow ‘easy’ to shoot from 1-2 yards. You obviously haven’t had the humbling experience of missing at those distances. Try it and you’ll find it actually improves your shooting at distance
Grip is hyper critical in retention because it’s also your aim. Trigger manipulation is fundamental to all shooting not just pistols at a certain distance. Those fundamentals are more important at close range, not less.
@@atomicsmith You learn the rules before you learn how to break them.
First you shoot according to fundamentals. Then you learn what you can get away with when the situation requires.
I trained for hours quick drawing and fanning my Fanner Fifty as a kid. I was incredibly quick shooting my cap gun from the hip. I still can’t bring myself to assume that compressed ready position during or after a draw because it looks so silly.
This was the standard military training in WW2 for the 1911. You shoot one handed (it's called a handgun, not handsgun) from the hip. People think it's crazy but it's been demonstrated to be very effective at normal pistol distances.
British Special forces during WWII trained to shoot pistols from the hip. reportedly one of their instructors regularly hit playing cards at 25yds. It was a very effective technique, (As written about by WWII SF's veterans)..
When I was a patrol officer 40 years ago I had to qualify for my dept training . I was the only officer using a 9mm auto (S&W 39) . Chief of police had OK'd it and the training officer watched me empty the magazine into the xring from the hip and asked me how to do that , my response was #1 practice #2 the gun HAS to fit your hand and shoot where you look.
This is a great resource for period writing, thanks.
Why is Cooper a “divisive figure?”
Leftists and women.
Yeah. I was surprised to hear that too. I've never heard anyone speak ill of him. Not even in the comments.
Because his thinking would get him “canceled” today.
@@SolarGeneral what thinking?
Because a lot of people cling to his every word like it's gospel truth while others are convinced all his ideas are outdated and useless because the Weaver stance and .45 ACP are no longer our favorites. He wrote the four rules of gun safety that we all know today, but he was also known for committing blatant safety violations and negligent discharges. He butted heads with almost everyone he worked with and drove away many of his best instructors because of his stubbornness. And his views on women and minorities have not aged well, either. He was a complicated man who left a lot for us to be grateful for and a lot that is rightly criticized. But those who see things only in black or white like to bicker over his legacy.
Thanks a bunch for doing this video. This is exactly the kind of thing I personally want to know more about especially when it comes to explaining the history of handgun (or other weapon) techniques in class
You guys have to watch Taran Butler shoot from the hip. He’s just plain phenomenal.
ua-cam.com/video/iu5d6BxLPLQ/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared&t=14
Please do a Sykes and Fairburn video on a similar vain to this one. This was very well done!
Maybe because it instilled instinctive/point shooting? Under immense pressure, panic, fear, surprise, or need for an immediate life saving response, maybe this isn't a bad way to shoot. at a threat.. If you think you're going to be finding your sights during a sphincter clenching adrenaline dump, well, good luck. Unless you're an operator, of course, which we all are because we watch UA-cam. These old timers killed a lot of bad guys in their time.
Hold up there buddy! What are you doing? This is the comments section of a gun video on UA-cam….under NO CIRCUMSTANCES are you allowed to make an intelligent and rational comment/observation like you just did. There are a lot of John Wick level experts that’ll be along any minute to run you out of here on a rail
I think this is a good reason. I switched to shooting from the hip below 10 yards in a competitive multiplayer VR shooting game because I kept loosing surprise confrontations when I brought the gun to eye level. It wasn't because bringing the pistol the eye level was too slow- it was because I was still taking the time to line the gun up with my vision even if I wasn't using the sights. Maybe if law enforcement spent more time with airsoft or something then people could figure out what works for them in different situations without using expensive ammo.
This is actually fascinating and answers a question I didn't even know I had. Great stuff!
I do think there is value in training one handed. You may not always have the ability to use two hands.
Without a doubt. But no need to use one hand always
Also, coming from another younger dude who’s pretty dedicated to revolver, the sights on older service revolvers (Official Police, Army Special, M&P, New Service etc) can be pretty tough to pick up quickly, and virtually impossible in low light. The fixed rear sights are tighter than later guns and the thin front blades are more suited to 25m bullseye. You’d be surprised how effective the “FBI crouch” is with a little bit of practice. Totally unsuitable for today’s world, but for a light tapered barrel service revolver 80 years ago, possibly a lifesaver against a suspect who got the jump on you.
Why would it be unsuitable today if it worked 80 years ago? Have revolvers changed that much or have criminals gotten better at dodging bullets?
_Why was dueling ever a thing?_
Who thought it was honorable to line up with your adversary, face each other at 20-40 paces, take steady aim, then fire without flinching...
*_THAT_* my friends was how a proper duel was held back in crazier times. None of this quickdraw nonsense we see portrayed in Western films and folklore. Sure the quickdraw duels have occurred but that was not SOP.
Alas, common sense was not so common back then as it is now. Although, I use that phrase loosely.
_"There is nothing more uncommon than common sense."_ *~Frank Lloyd Wright*
Stay classy my friends.
Two Donald Hamilton movies featured hip shooting and one featured a formal duel with dueling pistols. The first has a slip gun--a revolver with the trigger tied back to that it can only be fan fired.
The Violent Men (1955)
The Big Country (1958)
Donald Hamilton may be more famous as the author of 27 Matt Helm novels.
Nice video. Very informative and entertaining.
This sounds like the shooting equivalent of the legal saying, "Bad facts make bad law."
@@twentyfifthdui4717 "bad facts make bad laws" also implies that extreme circumstances result in negative outcomes. Like having a shooter that has well above average capabilities developing a technique that is actually bad for the vast majority of people, but his individual success convinces the people in charge to adopt policies that have negative long-term consequences.
That was a super interesting video. Thanks! Do more of this stuff, please!
It’s a viable technique, and worth practicing, for encounters at bad-breath range where you might be deflecting a weapon or punch with your weak hand..
There are downsides to modern technique, and one of them is that you’re obstructing your view of the subject’s hands at close range, while making it easier for him to grab your gun.
When Massad Ayoob began to research gunfights in the 1970's he met officers who said things like, "I can't believe that I missed him from only two feet!". His research confirmed what Jeff Cooper was teaching, that bringing the gun to eye level works much better.
Not pistol shooting but to this day the US navy requires sailors to shoot from the hip as part of the shotgun qualification. It is so stupid watching sailors trying to handle 00 buckshot from a M500 from the hip.
I was a police officer starting in the 80s. 3 yds or less shoot from the hip. Still do so.