I always wondered how Glock was able to come out with a .40 pistol at the same time as S&W. To hear that Gaston himself actually sticky-fingered a few .40 cartridges at S&W's own SHOT Show booth is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.
That's hilarious. What's funnier is S&W dropping the ball on their own cartridge. HK designed the USP to handle .40 S&W from the outset, yet Smith & Wesson thought a 9mm platform could handle the load and didn't bother doing the hard work required 🤷🏻♂️ The Sigma debacle and getting sued by Glock for patent infringement (IIRC you could actually put a Sigma slide onto a Glock, because they'd copied the slide rail design) kinda shows their attitude towards innovation.
@@mrkeogh Modern S&W seems to have gotten a lot better in the innovation metric, for what little innovation can be had anymore. Though their QC in their revolvers has dipped quite a bit
he gets away with that yet S&W get sued for the Sigma. His pistols may work But Glock is a total douche nozzle. Glock should be forced to pay S&W back all the money from the lawsuit.
This is my story about the S&W 10mm pistols. I started my LE career in January 1990. By spring of that year, our captain over training had convinced our chief and the city council that we needed to trade in our revolvers for semi-autos. The captain (a FBI Academy graduate) convinced them there was only one gun and caliber, the S&W in 10mm Auto "subsonic load". We had adopted the S&W 1006 by mid-summer. At least a third jammed regularly, mine included. My 1006 would fail to extract the spent case about every third round. I rarely made it through a magazine without 2 or 3 failures to extract. It was so bad I carried a S&W 3913 in an ankle holster for backup. I complained to the dept. armorer. He replaced the extracter. Jammed. He polished the chamber. Jammed. I told him i think the springs are too heavy for the light loads we fired. He disagreed. We argued. Guns continued to jam. I said it was the springs. We argued more. I gave up arguing. Then, about 1 1/2 - 2 years after we were issued the pistols, the armorer switched the springs out to lighter ones. What do you know? The guns stopped jamming. I told the armorer, "I told you so." He ignored me. I never did get an acknowledgment or apology from him...
That is the exact problem I had years ago with a Sat Night Special, a .25 semi-auto. Pull the trigger a little too fast & it would actually catch the spent cartridge as it was being rejected. Sort of a bounce exaggeration effect. Cure was to slow the trigger speed down & have no problems.
what's most interesting is that he didn't assign some lacky to do the dirty work. he got on a plane and grabbed the bullets himself. interesting behaviour
I had a shooting buddy that purchased one of new S&W's late 1980 era 9MM autos. I was with him on the first trip to the range. We both noted that in its workmanship on finish of parts like the slide, the edges were so sharp you could almost shave with them, they didn't break the sharp corners like you would expect. He loaded the magazine, aimed it down range, pulled the trigger, and it emptied the magazine in a full auto display. He was a good marksman and maintained control and aim point during the second it took to empty the mag. Of course both of us said, "Cool!", but he packed it up, returned it to our gun shop, told our friend behind the counter what happened and said he wanted his money back, which they did. This was in the beginning of the ATF era of if you had any firearm that fired more than one round with one trigger pull for any reason, even if it was an ammo problem, or a firearm problem, you would be considered in possession of a full auto weapon and subject to the penalties of law. As far as I know, that is still the way it is. In one BATFE case many years ago as reported in American Rifleman magazine, the ATF was found complicit in falsifying evidence by loading test .223 ammo with the primers high, to show in a demonstration that the weapon was firing full auto, and was modified as such, even though it was a legally owned, commercially manufactured, and a properly operating unmodified AR15, charging the owner with possession of a machine gun. The story all started when his wife at the time, had called the ATF telling them her husband had a full auto AR, as revenge in divorce proceedings. Maybe the ATF wanted to save face and fake the evidence, but the ATF lost that one when defense lawyers got to the bottom of the ammo the ATF used. The judge admonished the ATF for such a corrupt practice. Of course, no one in the agency was every found guilty of trying to screw that fellow over.
In the US intent is needed to be charged with most crimes whether successful or not. There are exceptions like negligence. I don't see how gun laws would get special treatment in that regard.
The ATF lawyers should be disbarred or at least suspended for presenting falsified evidence. There is an expectation of "candor to the tribunal" which they violated if they knew or reasonably should have known that the ATF was presenting false evidence.
@@IaintTheHerb The ATF is well known for stretching legal issues against gun owners. As soon as they came to my door, I would say, "talk to my lawyer, I have nothing to say to you."
@@clintwilde1048 I know a guy who was issued a brand new S&W model 39 in a police academy. First trip to the range he loaded 5 rounds into the mag. After inserting the mag and stepping up to the firing line he pulled the trigger. The pistol went full auto. They gave him a different gun and sent the broken one back to Smith.
It still bugs me that the lesson the FBI took away from Miami-Dade was, "We had a half dozen agents mag dump their guns on two targets less than 7 yards away, and the number of shots they hit can be counted on one hand? Clearly, we need guns with more bullets in them! Tighten our firearms training? Pshaw! More bullets in gun!"
It's been long known that recreational shooters put in more range time than LEOs do. They barely practice enough to pass their annual weapon qualification.
I discovered the 10mm this year and it's a new favorite of mine. I think Paul Harrell's video on the 1986 Miami shootout is a good analysis of what the FBI did wrong.
@CyborgZeta I agree, Didn't really think much about the 10mm, more of a .45 9mm guy however my son was like give my Rock Island 10 a try, Loved it, Got a Glock 20 and could not be happier.
@@CyborgZeta 10mm has been my favorite for a long time, I have an EDC G29, loved it so much I put my G20 in a META Tactical bullpup kit, and got the G40 MOS just for hogs. I got a range in my backyard, come to Florida, we'll hog hunt and unlike paper or steel targets, they move, and they move at you at a high rate of speed at firefight distance. Good training.
I went to a training regimen at the FBI academy in 1998. John Hall was my legal instructor, and he was brilliant. We never discussed the 10mm but had a lot of conversations about other firearms-related issues (policies, gun types, etc.). He was very approachable when he knew you were serious about the subject.
6:34 The fact that a brand new Glock $17 gen 5 costs ~$540 is actually not that bad when you consider that $560 in 1986 is the same as $1,549.74 in July 2024. I understand that it was a brand new and revolutionary design back then, but for Glock to keep the 17 basically the same price for almost 40 years is kinda cool, and I say this as someone who loves his PSA Dagger that was bought instead of a Glock.
I've owned the 17,19,20,21,22,23 and 29 with probably 30k rounds through all of them over 20 years and only had 3 FTF/FTE and two of them was from using that crappy Blazer aluminum for target shooting. They are the AK of handguns and while many have an issue with the lack of external safeties I've never had one discharge from a drop nor have I had a kaboom. The stories of them "going off by themselves" literally 99% of them have been from improper carry without holsters or items or clothing finding their way inside the trigger guard. I've dropped one from 30 feet off a ladder onto the asphalt onto the back of the slide at an angle knocking the rear sight half off and it didn't discharge. While the Glock platform even 5 generations deep is still a dated platform it was well ahead of its time and reliability isn't in question for me and I'll trust a Glock with my life any day of the week.
It's pretty bad when you consider it only costs them $40 to make a gun... and that includes every single cost the company ever has. (Insurance, health insurance, machines, tools, testing ammo, shipping, electricity, lawsuits/lawyers, etc... etc...). They're overpriced now, but they were way over-priced back then. They were good guns and they were ahead of all the other companies when it came to good, reliable light weight firearms... but I'm not convinced their guns were ever worth such a high price.
Ill never forget the ammo crisis we were in post covid, in the states and i took notice of handgun cartridges that seemed to constantly being left on the shelf that cartridge being 10mm i who was a big glock fan before turning 21. I decided to look at glock 10mm model selections and choose my gen 4-40 mos, i immediately loved the gun for hunting,target, and comp even tho it was massive. I decided to tell a few friends about the gun who were inside some gun communities and they ended up purchasing g20’s because they liked the idea of freely purchasing the ammo knowing it was on the shelf. The following year its like i could never find 10mm apparently everyone got onto the gig but im glad the 10mm found its owners and is receiving some love!
It definitely would! I highly recommend reading "Glock: the Rise of America's Gun" by Paul Barrett for more entertaining Glock shenanigans. The 80-90s was a wild time for Glock. Did you know one of Gaston's associates hired a hitman to take him out? But he failed and Glock literally knocked the guy's teeth out. Too weird to be made up
The 357 Sig is a more effective SD caliber than the .40 as well as being a superior barrier penetrating round. The 357 Sig is a lighter smaller gun easier to carry and conceal than the 10mm but just as effective at stopping fights. The 357 Sig is the best overall SD handgun ever made by the hand of man, just that simple.
They had two agents with SMGs but they were a couple of miles away getting busy with a waitress. And the rest of them were sitting on their body armor in case shots came from underneath the car.
@@Galfrid that one I’m more inclined to believe someone as trained as him would have practiced without his glasses from time to time and engaged in suppressing fire by mag dumping into the bad guy car
Retired officer here. The reason we were given was female agents had a hard time with the grips and recoil. We had the 5906 9mm. Never got to shoot the 10mm.
I’d take a revolver over a semi auto any day for bear defense. I know someone personally that was attacked and killed a brown bear with his revolver. By the time he got his gun out, the bear was already on top of him, literally. He said he was way under its neck and jammed his gun into is as hard as he could (he said he did so as the bear was thrashing side to side and scooting backwards on top of him, it was like a bucking horse) he fired 3 rounds as fast as he could. If he had a semi auto, he probably couldn’t have gotten one shot off, let alone three.
Very nice video. I went through the FBI Academy in 1991. We were initially issued and trained on the 1076 (also given instruction on the adoption of the 10mm round). I was a complete firearm novice when I arrived at the Academy and absolutely loved the 1076 and never experienced a malfunction and as I recall, none of my classmates did either. About halfway through the 16 week training, they took the 1076 from us and issued us the Sig P226 or 228 (they said the 1076 was going back to S&W for re-tooling). After a few years, in '94 or '95, those who trained on the 1076, were given the option of transitioning back to that weapon, so I immediately turned in my Sig. Then, in the early 2000s, I finally had to tun in my 1076 for the Glock 22 .40 cal. Of the 3 different pistols, I personally found the 1076 to be the most accurate. As a member of a SWAT Team, I also preferred the H&K MP5 10mm.
Props for a very well produced and professionally presented documentary piece! I'm a retired LEO Firearms Trainer, and shortly after the Miami FBI shootout, was sent a copy of the FBI training film of the Miami shootout by an Ex-LAPD officer in the Federal agency. Great job!
What a lot of Miami Vice fans don't realize is that Don Johnson didn't carry a 1911 .45 but he actually carried a Bren 10 for the first two seasons. Then, upon the demise of Bren 10, the producers didn't want to feature a weapon that was no longer available so, they went to his shiny Smith.
This is an incredible amount of research on a subject usually summed up and repeated in a sentence or two of gun culture mythology. Thanks for all your work!
The quality of your video editing continues to far outpace your peers. Music was especially well done in this one. One of your best videos yet. Congrats to everyone who made it happen. Keep it up 😎
there are other retired agents who could probably add more details, but a couple of points: 1 - the Sig 226 was the 9mm handed out to almost everyone after the 10mm recall in 1991. the 228 was slowly brought in for those with small hands who found the 226 too big. 2 - another factor in keeping the S&W 10 was the distribution of H&K 10mm MP5 to SWAT teams. there was a desire to have a single cartridge. 3 - at the same time, the higher cost of the 10mm rounds was a factor. I loved my 10 and kept it until the very end. i kept avoiding the PFI so he couldn’t force me to exchange it for the Glock. Maybe up until 2000/2001.
also, i was told that as part of the settlement for the contract cancellation, Smith ran the 2,400 or so 1076s that were finally accepted through their performance shop to get the tolerances down well enough to avoid the jamming problems. (some jammed so badly that neither armorers at Quantico nor even Smith could recover them.)
@@danquaylesitsspeltpotatoe8307 "Pointless?" They're still generating money for the manufacturers that make them, and the weapons that fire them, are they not?
Very often, people that tunnel visioned on show biz have less time making sure a gun will work when needed in a hurry, they are so safe they would do something like leaving the safety on.
It's clearly meant to mock bad, outdated behaviors. You see a lot of old-school professionals handle guns like that in pictures, film and presentations.
My first duty pistol was the 4006….it was a POS. The problems were endless. Eventually switched to the G22. This video was excellent. Well made and put together. Almost documentary level.
Glock's marketing strategy was a straight copy of Apple Computer at the time. Apple offered IIC and IIE computers to school districts at below wholesale, basically considering those sales as part of their marketing budget.
On the flip side, Microsoft did the same with Windows for businesses and that’s part of why Windows became dominant. Students would be required to use Windows regardless of what they used in school.
It's called loss leadership and depending on the extent of its use, the size of the company, and the long term plan it can range from a good way to get consumers to consider a new brand/product (Lexus in the 90s) or a way to create/solidify a monopoly and seriously harm consumers (most tech companies today)
The sad thing is that there were a lot of guys on the training side of the FBI who took that incident very seriously and felt a burden to figure out how best to learn from it, including altering the tactics and procedures they were teaching. But the bureaucrats figured "9mm bad" was an easier way to dodge accountability and that nobody would question that conclusion and they mostly got away with it.
@granitejeepc3651 it's the ingrained culture. Legacy ideals stupid tactics. Stand shoot at q target. All branches of services and agencies have a stupendous case of forgetting hard learned lessons . Move shoot when target presents. Usually fbi were accountants, investigation or lawyers. Totally different from marines or grunts. So when they gave them a big iron Usually ended up in a desk drawer. That said taking on a rifle in the hands of a proven shooter. Is a bad day especially when hampered by policies and long guns in trunks.
I have a retired U.S. Marshal friend that was still working for the agency in the late 80’s & early 90’s. The USMS was really pushing the S&W 5906 but my buddy and his brother,also a U.S. Marshal ,both carried the Beretta 92 in 9mm. Anytime they’d have to qualify they’d have 0 function issues with their Beretta 92’s but some of the other Marshal’s that opted for the S&W 5906 would have occasional issues. Anything made in Italy or Germany has always been high quality and very dependable.
FBI in the 80's: Aggressively recruits college grads with degrees in accounting and math. FBI Shooting Stats: 15% accuracy. FBI Conclusions: Its the guns and ammo that are the problem
The FBI started out that way. It's literally called the Federal Bureau of INVESTIGATION. J. Edgar really only wanted to recruit people with law degrees and accounting backgrounds and didn't look for anybody with law enforcement or military backgrounds. They didn't even have arrest powers until the 30's and weren't issued sidearms until 1934. If they wanted to carry a gun, they had to buy it themselves. They were an investigative branch of the government, but when they started to tangle with gangster's in the 20's & and 30s, they started arming agents and giving them firearms training, before then they were on their own and had to supply everything on their own, ie, guns, rounds and paper targets to practice, and there was no formal training.
@@seandougherty2556 kinda disingenuous to say the FBI didnt have arrest powers until the '30's because before then it was a different agency with a different name. Its ability to arrest was indeed codified in the 30's but the preceding agencies from which the FBI emerged COULD arrest people and did, especially as part of prohibition in the 20's and before that when it was 'just' the BOI
This is without doubt the best explanation of the FBI’s decision regarding the 10mm cartridge and the Smith & Wesson 1076 pistol. I watched the video expecting to offer corrections having personal experience in the matter. The only thing I can add is that the 10mm HK MP5 remained in service with the FBI until approximately 2017. So the 10mm cartridge was in active service with the FBI until then.
I think it makes sense as a carbine cartridge if the carbine is your personal weapon, I would imagine the ballistics are pretty awesome out of a longer barrel too.
Wrong, I worked in the gun vault form 2011-2014, there were absolutely NO 10mm MP5s in use at that time. The only 10mm we had was the original Thompson that's used for the dog and pony shows that come through. And very few MP5s where in use at that time, mostly HRT, SWAT and the Directors detail used them. They weren't issued to SAs, they were using the standard AR.
If you did indeed work in the gun vault at Quantico then you are no different that most everyone else that worked at Quantico or FBI Headquarters and you have no idea what was going on in any of the Field Offices. Just because New Agent Trainees are getting trained on a new firearm it doesn’t mean all other long guns in the Field Offices disappear. Also if you worked in the gun vault you would know that new agents are only issued their pistol when they leave Quantico. Long arms are issued by the field office. When I was at Quantico in 2000 I trained on a Glock 22 which I was issued upon graduation. I trained on the Remington 870 with a 14 inch barrel with rifle sights and synthetic stocks and the 10mm MP-5. When I got to my field office I was issued a Remington 870 Wingmaster with walnut stocks and a 20 inch barrel with a bead sight. Later I was also issued a 9mm MP-5 and an M16A1. Yes an M16A1 in 2000. It is no different today. New agents get trained on the newest long guns and get issued the newest pistols but the older firearms in the field don’t disappear. I retired in 2022 and know when I turned in my 10mm MP-5 in exchange for a 12.5 inch AR. I also spent 8 years on SWAT. I went through two Springfield Armory Professional Models, the original without a light rail and a second one with the light rail. We used the 10mm MP-5 for CQB and Colt M4A1s for outside work. We later transitioned to 12.5 inch M4s for everything and turned in the 10mm MP-5s around 2006 or so.
Just to clarify, The SWAT team I was assigned to turned in our MP-5s around 2006. After I left SWAT and went to another Field Office in 2012 I was issued an MP-5 in 10mm which I kept until around 2017.
@@StanleySlater-rr1nw Oh, I do know what's going on. EVERY firearm, whether it be FO or TD issued, came back to Quantico for inspection and repair (now sent to Redstone). Did I say they were issue by TD after graduation, nope, sure didn't, And older firearms, get sent back to QT(doesn't matter if the FO wants to or not) to be destroyed, It would make anyone sick the number of Thompsons, MP/10, Glocks (everything -new generation) Rem. 700s, and others. I've taken 1000's of firearms, loaded onto cardboard boxes and sent away. Sounds like you do a lot of Google searches😂, PS, i'm typing all this on UNET..Still at the Academy, 4yrs with FTU, 6 years at the Lab, now back with FLSD(HQ)..
There's definitely a disconnect for folks that can't seem to understand that taking a free sample of a round of ammunition is not the same as copying a firearm's design. The first is corporate espionage, and all it did was provide the technical data a few weeks/months earlier than it would have been available to the general public. The second is patent violation. Completely different issues.
@@vasky22 don't bother, the guy you're replying too is an bozo who doesn't understand the difference between making an gun based on an caliber, and blatant patient infringement of the gun itself
It makes me feel my age when I hear all of those familiar names and remember being involved in the selection of a semi-auto for my department when our Sheriff finally gave up his "You'll never carry semi-autos" stand. Good video!
The best and most comprehensive history of the guns of this period in the FBI I have ever seen. I also read through all of your replies to the comments. The information in those replies really added details and interesting facts that were not in the video. Thanks for a terrific lesson!
I met John Hall in the summer of 1989 when he gave a lecture on the 10mm at the Jackson, MS Police Academy. Another guy and I drove 3 hours to be there. He was carrying a Colt Delta Elite. The Chief from Pelahatchie PD was there and he was carrying Glock and asked Hall if they had considered it. Hall said they hadn't. That was the first time I had ever seen a Police Officer with a Glock and he was the first Police Officer I had seen in uniform with a beard. That was a long time ago.
Very interesting! From what I understand, the firearms training unit guys did not think highly of the Glock in the early 90s. They were very much dedicated to decock-only DA/SAs and the HRT guys were into 1911s. I love DA/SA, but if you've got to train an agency of 10K people, a Glock would make things a whole lot easier. Between turnover within the FTU and big city PDs having mostly positive feedback with Glocks, the anti-Glock sentiment at the FBI had cooled considerably by the late 90s.
@@JasperFromMSit sounds like he thought those calibers had reached peak ballistic capability. No matter how much R&D went into them at that point, you weren't going to get any more performance. We know now that's not true, but i think that was the point.
Just want to say I appreciate the research and time it took you to put this video together. Lots of history and vintage footage/pictures. Really well done!
I started my LE career right after the FBI Miami shootout and was less than totally confident in the Beretta 92F loaded with 1st Gen Silvertips that I began my police career with. The gun was fine, but I wasn't sold on 9mm performance. When the 10mm came out I purchased and carried a S&W 1006 as my duty pistol from 1990-1996, but sneered at the FBI Lite loads. I carried full house (mostly Cor-Bon 135 gr) loads. Loved the cartridge, but the pistol would break parts and fail every few thousand rounds. When I sent it back to Smith to be re-built for the 3rd time I decided it was never going back in my holster, so I swapped to an "ugly as a bag of a**holes" G22, but at least the ugly thing worked and didn't destroy itself. Once 9mm duty ammo reached a point where there wasn't a hair's difference in performance with 40, 45, or 357 I swapped to a G17 and carried that until retirement in 2017. Chris is spot on with my recollection of the history, although he failed to mention that Sonny Crockett carried a Bren 10 in the first few seasons of Miami Vice.
Good reason he skipped the Bren; it was crap. I had two Standard Models and neither would finish a mag. The foremost experts on D&D are adamant that they should NEVER be fired because the metal is full of voids and can fracture with shocking regularity.
@@ahhamartinat least you HAD a magazine, LOL .. Back in the 80's I had a Cop buddy who loves offbeat pistols & he forked out some serious money ordering a Bren Ten as soon as they can out ...he eventually received his pistol but he never did find any magazines for it... The one pistol he had that I wish I could have talked him out of was a custom ASP 9mm...
@@bradenchurch552The tragic saga of the Bren 10. Cooper was a gun guy. He got his pet project into the hands of people who weren't and moved on. The magazines were outsourced. Who builds guns and magazines separately? Good business people. At least, good 1980s biz folks. Don't know who was in charge of QC over at Brno, but they probably smelled a scam. Anyway, the 10mm, as envisioned by Cooper, was meant to put .357 Magnum power into the 1911 platform. So stated by Cooper himself. Now, the hot number is just that.
The period appropriate title cards for the dates are a great touch, and the outro gave me a good giggle. Thanks for an interesting and informative video.
This whole story reminds me of the tale of the .41 magnum back when cops carried revolvers. They loaded full magnum hunting loads and a sort of “.41 special” level load intended for police use. But departments bought Model 58’s and issued the full power stuff. No surprise that cops who’d carried Model 10’s in .38 suddenly couldn’t qualify with full .41 magnums, and the N-frame was a lot of gun to carry all day.
Some of the more "progressive" departments in California (yeah the left coast was pretty leftie even back then) banned the carry of anything with "Magnum" in the name. As a result, some of the more serious shooters ended up carrying Smith Model 25s in 45 Colt.
@@LuckyGunnerbrother please do a .357 mag and 10 mm comparisong like underwood ammo and similar strength ammo. i have been requesting this for years. Thank you btw for your huge effort on this mini documentaries.
I've learned so much with this format, pls keep the historical content like this coming, I love the adoption of calibers by institutions and whats behind those specially 10/10 !
It's nice to see a 40/10mm video that isn't filled with 10mm snobbery or macho garbage. Being a fan of both 40 and 10mm its nice to learn more about them due to both rounds having a very interesting history.
The 10mm / .40 "Commercial" at the end was straight fire. It should honestly be uploaded as a separate UA-cam short if at all possible, with a link to the main video. That sort of thing could honestly go viral.
This is probably the most accurate video I've seen regarding the history of the 10mm and the development of the .40S&W. You have no idea how many videos i watch or stories I read that were incorrect. I was hesitant at warching this, thinking it would be just as inaccurate. It isn't. Well done, sir. Well done.
Outstanding work on this in-depth and well-produced documentary. I knew bits and pieces of these various story-lines, but you put things together in a manner that was riveting to watch and really informative. This is pro-level. Well Done!
Colt Delta Elite was a dream gun for me for many years back in the day. Now I have a RIA double stack (beast of a gun) and an M&P. I do like the cartridge.
@@RevolverOcelot79 My "back in the day" comment was WAYYYYYY Back in the day. Like in the 80's when it was first introduced and I was a broke college student.
I was a poor clerk back when the Delta Elites hit the Market, They were so beautiful, the only 1911 pistol I ever wanted. They sold as fast as we could get them in up in Alaska. I still don't have one even though I could afford one now. Perhaps I will sell my 1006 and buy one.
Except it was too much. Too much weight, too big a grip, and too much recoil. Did you even watch the video? They downgraded the cartridge for a reason, and they switched to a cartridge with identical performance to that downgraded version but with a smaller grip as soon as they were able to.
Some .40 caliber info. When Aberdeen Proving Ground tested all available .40 S&W semi autos (made in the USA) for the USBP / INS contract there were indeed some surprises. All three Glock 22s and three Glock 23s catastrophically failed between 6,000 and 8,000 rounds. Glock added locking block pins in later models, which cured the problem, but didn’t participate the 2nd and 3rd years of testing. The best and final offer 3rd year tests were very interesting when considering the results of the reliability / durability tests and the ammunition compatibility tests. They were as follows: Reliability / Durability 10,000 round test with three sample weapons tested. - Smith and Wesson 4006 = 1500 malfunctions average - H-K USP 40 = 115 malfunctions average - Sig Sauer P229 = 29 malfunctions average - Beretta 96D Brigadier = 4 malfunctions average Ammunition Compatibility Tests of all available .40 Ammunition (Test was firing three full magazines of each type without a malfunction.) - All weapon samples failed except the Beretta 96D Brigadier! The other tests were: - Accuracy tests - Sand and dust tests - Corrosion tests - Drop tests - Plugged barrel tests - Parts interchangeability tests - High temperature tests (140F) - Low temperature tests (-40F) Been a while, but I think that is it.
Do you mean the DHS tests in 2004? If so, that's odd cuzz in 1997 the FBI went G22/23 after they passed a 160K test (20K x 8 pistols). The DHS did not test USPs in 2004, but they did test USPC/P2000/P2000SK. DHS went SIG and HK in 04, ended up with Glocks in 9x19 eventually.
@kentwilliams3326 Hi, could I ask where you found this information? I find it extremely interesting to say the least...maybe the 96s weren't as bad as they were reputed to be??? Is the information publicly available?
@@danielgreen6547Hi Daniel. The info is from my personal experience when stationed at the U.S. Border Patrol / INS National Firearms Unit. I was the acting liaison between Aberdeen and the NFU.
Been huge fan of 10mm for at least 10 years. People are always saying "but its over $2 a shot", but current prices are almost equivalent to 45acp now. The only real issue with 10mm is its not as good suppressed being supersonic. Laugh how you want but i have a 10mm HiPoint pistol for bear protection when camping because i dont care if it gets beaten up. Built a 10mm PCC i love. My Colt Delta Elite is my pride and joy. My only 10mm i dont like is my S&W 610 revolver, way too big and heavy, tall bore axis, 6 rounds requiring moon clips, heavy DA trigger. the Delta Elite blows it away in ever category and just as accurate
"10mm is not as good subsonic." Just use 10mm short. Usually works in 10mm platforms without any modification. Usually subsonic. Half the above video was about it.
How are the Delta Elites aging? I was shopping for a weapon back then, and I remember reading about the Delta Elites getting chewed up by the 10mm ammo. One review mentioned that the Delta Elite he tested showed wear from the recoil after just the first box was fired through it. I went on to a Beretta 92F, but I always wondered about the Delta.
@@advo1053 while my DE is nowhere as old as his, i have had no issues with mine with about 1k rounds through it. but i hear the older DE had issues and it was resolved by a small cutout in the frame. i bought a M9A1 at the same time i bought my DE. i just cant get into it. even with thinner grips, its soo wide. and i cant seem to shoot it very accurate either.
I worked for a police dept from '98 to 2011 and we were issued the 1076 10 mm as a sevice weapon for most of that time. It was nicknamed the "boat anchor". The dept finally switched to the .45 s&w m&p.
This Lucky Gunner video is the best explanation of the FBI's 10mm I've seen since FBI adopted the 10mm. 10mm 180gr and .45 ACP 230gr have the same sectional density. The FBI's reduced velocity 10mm 180gr was about 100 fps faster than .45 ACP 230gr, so, in the context of sectional density, the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm 180gr load was, in essence, a souped-up .45 ACP 230gr load.
In the late 80s the FBI that said the Glock was a bad idea because it was not safe enough. In the late 90s they issued them. Same Glock, different people behind the same desks. They may have had a point. NYPD's UID rate with their 11lb trigger is about 15%. The DOJ's (FBI, ATF, USM, DEA) with their 5.5lb triggers is about 30%. That's over a five- year period with about the same number of armed people (35,000).
NYPD's triggers were awful. They did it intentionally, they wanted it to be like the double action trigger pull, which made it worse for accuracy. The NYPD always discouraged the Cops knowing about firearms, because they were afraid you might use it. CYA instead of giving a damn about Officer's actual safety.
@@johncurry6260 NYPD considered a change to lighter triggers 3 years ago (2021) but scrapped that and did not follow through en masse. NYPD did a test where they compared Q scores with the std and heavy NYPD trigger. The std trigger scores were 5 points higher (88 v 93). That's it. Some were given std triggers. UIDs went from 4 to 11 the next year (2022). There was no MOS killed in 2021, there were 2 in 2022. Were the lighter triggers at fault? Who knows, but it may have scared them off.
@@mr.coffee6242 They do qualify with them. About the same weight or less as their old DA revolvers or backup snubbies. Hit rates with the Glocks is about the same as their old revolvers (from 8-30%).
Ive been a 10mm pistol shooter for 2 decades. In my view , it is a flat shooting very accurate hard hitting round. Something once only found in revolvers. The recoil is very similar to .45 acp. I think it was a big mistake for the fbi to walk away from 10mm. In fact 10 can be and often is loaded to .40 spec.
Your last sentence completely contradicts the need for a 10mm! This is coming from a guy who owns a Glock 20. If you want the rank and file to carry ammo that's neutered to 40 levels then wouldn't you think it makes sense to use the 40 S&W cartridge?
@@joeblowe7545 All Im saying is that if you are a weak wristed female and can shoot .40 you can also shoot 10mm loaded to .40 just like .38 instead of .357 Glock 20? Yeah ho hum me too
The only guy I ever seen handle a 10mm really good was a Miami Vice cop Sonny Crockett. Back in the 80's. He could handle the recoil like I've never seen. His Bren Ten never moved in his hand.
I always wondered why nobody just called it 1cm instead of 10mm. I've learned so much from your videos over the years, Chris. Thank you so much for the thorough work and research. You really are doing so much more than just selling ammo: you have contributed more greatly than you may ever know.
This was great!! I had read that the S&W 10mm grip was too large for many female FBI agents, so this video confirmed that. Lately, I've read that the FBI says that the definitive factor in a gunfight is NOT knockdown power, but sheer number of rounds available - hence the backtrack to 9mm, large magazine autos. Keep calm, tackle hard!
The reason a 10mm pistol, the same physical size as a .45, was initially accepted, was magazine capacity was a lot more than a standard 1911 .45 pistol. People wanted the stopping power approaching the .45, with the magazine capacity of a 9mm. The .40 didn't have the size drawback of .45 sized pistol.
15% accuracy (From the F.B.I.). That in a nutshell describes the disaster of that (One) engagement, but should also raise the eyebrows of EVERYONE in Govt./Courts/Law Enforcement (And by default/other, the military, who TENDS to take marksmanship a bit more 'Serious'?). It doesn't matter what you're shooting, caliber/power wise. If you can't HIT what you need to, all you're doing is endangering everyone within the impact zone(s), and property.
Great video. The larger and more progressive departments were all carrying 9mm or .45 ACP (not .38 Spl) by the early 1980's. The FBI was slow to adopt anything new. The mid-size department I worked for in California issued S&W model 59 (double-stack 9mm, 15 +1) beginning in 1979. A couple of books on the FBI and the 1986 shootout that are well worth reading are "The Guns of the FBI" by Vanderpool, and "FBI Miami Firefight" by Mireles. I met Vanderpool when I went through the FBI Firearms Instructor School in 1982, and Mireles was one of the agents in the 1986 shootout. The early versions of the S&W 10mm pistols were poorly designed and had frequent mechanical problems, likely because S&W rushed them to market. The official reason the FBI switched from .40 S&W to 9mm was "cost", both in terms of ammunition and firearms. A part of that "cost" factor is that guns chambered for 9mm last longer than those chambered for .40 S&W. An undisclosed but well known factor for the change is that the FBI hires many non-athletic people who routinely struggle to qualify with a .40 (and who could NOT qualify with a 10mm - ever). These non-athletic new hires do better with a 9mm. It is also true that switching to a 9mm would save the FBI a significant amount of money, though many of us in the industry doubt that "cost" is the true primary reason. One of the factors usually left undiscussed is that available ammo choices in 1980's and 1990's were limited, and back then the ammo was ballistically inferior (for defensive purposes) to ammo available today. That said, the .40 S&W is a superior defensive round to the 9mm, but once the FBI switched, the civilian law enforcement market began to follow suit - and the result is that the .40 S&W continues to fade in popularity.
@@DadHominem Right after they switched back from .40 cal to 9mm a retired cop told me "the real reason is because the (new) FBIs desk jockeys couldn't handle the .40 Cal recoil". He didn't say 'new' but I included it because I heard they got even softer in the last 15+ years or so. In fact, another guy said since (I think) "the patriot act" they've become more an intelligence agency than LE.
The real reason the FBI went back to the 9mm, is that all Federal agencies now buy ammo through a common supply channel, greatly lowering the cost due to volume. And of course, a 9mm round contains less powder and lead, so there is an additional cost saving.
THE RETURN OF MANNY!!!! Hey Chris - here is my petition for Lucky Gunner to ship ammo to FFL03/COE licensees in California! Palmetto and Brownells do it, it would be awesome if you guys would too!
Great that you mention poor tactics and mediocre accuracy. So FBI blamed the weapon. Of course, we have greatly improved bullet design partly as a result!
Excellent UA-cam Mr. Lucky. Shot placement is everything in a gun fight. I was trained by the best at LA County Sheriff in '72 using a S&W Model 15 .38+p. With only 6 to use you made sure you were more than decent at hitting things inside 25 yards. They went with the .38+p for the very good reason. In an urban environment of millions the department did not want the bad press of overshooting the target by spraying .357s all over the place. Then came the late 70s and early 80s. More women and smaller stature people were getting hired, as well as the politics of cops in a new kinder-gentler trendy society. 9mm was always around but not popular because the ballistics and stopping performance just never measured up. The bullet makers went to the drawing board and came back with better ammo. Then came GLOCK. Voila! The bean counters in the city/ county police accounting department got their dream of giving the cops something at a cheap enough price they could get a promotion and a pay raise. The newer generation of cop managers in the mid 80s were allowed to get away with diverting some training dollars, time and accuracy by qualifying their troops by hitting the "bottle" was good enough. That pesky 10 ring stuff and 290 out of 300 scoring was too tough get to. And to pay for. Now they simply emptied 15 rounds down range, hoped for the best and reloaded. 9mm was pretty cheap stuff to buy by the caseload. And so, propaganda aside, we arrive at todays choice of gun and bullets. The 10mm, .45, 40 and all that simply proves that a handgun is a weak sister to a rifle or shotgun when it comes to stopping mammals. The tradeoff is always shooters ability "under fire," not the bullet. I don't want to be shot by any of them. If you want to kill someone simply pepper him/her/ non binary it with .22LR ammunition. 10-20 minutes later it will fall over dead from bleeding out internally. The nightmare of any ER doctor. The FBI case (and equally the Calif. Highway Patrol Newhall incident) is something that could and does happen on any day and anyplace in humandom. It is not the weapon, bullet weight or feet per second speed. It is the shooters luck and ability to prevail. Which is to say ground into dust automatic reaction training and a mental ability to power through fear of dying, all while accurately placing shots like a Boston Dynamics dog. That grasshopper is your law enforcement challenge should you choose to accept it. Many times cops are having it out with people who don't care if they die, they only want you to go first. IMHO 10mm is like a 454 or 44MAG. Great for bear hunting. You'll need it. Just be prepared to be deaf, dumb and blind after the first round or two in a real (not earmuffed daytime at the range) situation.
@@jvmiller1995 They just don't look mean enough, with their wood furniture to hold down the moniker of Assault Rifle 😊 even though within 200 yards, the Mini-14 is just as deadly as the AR-15.... Only thing is, the AR-15 Platform is way more versatile than the mini-14.... Not to Mention, everyone is so hung up on 1MOA that everyone forgets the ARMY standard for the M-16 Battle Rifle is 3-6 MOA depending.... So the 2MOA My Mini-14 delivered seemed just fine to me....
@@LDR1100RSMy buddy was building a stainless mini and the problem was after 3 or 4 rounds the barrel would heat up and move. I made him a 2 piece clamp on barrel stiffener and it would hold 1 in groups @ 100 yds all day long.
10mm being a niche cartridge for outdoorsman and hunters is awesome. It didn't die, just find a new role. I'm not sure why .40 "lost" to 9mm. .40 performs great. That should be part 2 of this.
Logistics is the main reason why the .40 was ditched for 9mm. The critical duty in 9mm was able to get the performance the FBI wanted, so they decided to go with 9mm due to cheaper ammo and the performance from factory .40 is only slightly better than 9mm premium ammo.
@franktalarico689 is it any harder on the gun than a 45? What "more" resources are required? If you can't get it done in 14 shots, you need a different hobby. 🤷♂️
It'd be great if you made some content surrounding the .38 special specifically (non +P). I'd like to see you run it through lever actions, etc., comparing it's ballistics to revolvers of various lengths.
By the time the centimeter round had been developed, AE was already making and marketing the .41 Action Express, which could be fired out of a 9mm with a simple barrel swap, as such it was pretty self evident that a shorter .400 or .414 caliber cartridge could be made to work in a standard 9mm frame.
@Ren505nm and the FBI loads were never on that level either. Modern 180gr 1200fps loads which are relatively common and affordable, are more powerful than what the FBI ever issued/used/tested
I am sure she did not fire 5000 rounds in a few weeks. Also, FBI agents are not gun enthusiasts who spend every spare minute at the range. For them a gun is a tool, not a deity.
It doesn't matter if new 10mm is basically .40s&w because she was like what, 9 years old and handled it fine. Keep in mind that the FBI moved away from .40s&w because even that was apparently too strong for them.@Ren505nm
Carried the Glock 22 .40 for years, as long as you didn’t jam too many rounds in the magazine, it worked flawlessly. Magazine held 16, I never put more than 15 in it after getting a stove pipe on the range.
When I started in law enforcement, I was issued a Model 19 Smith in .357 Mag, we trained with target .38 special ammo and our duty loads were full bore .357 magnum 125 grain semi-jacket hollow point. When I retired in 1993 I was carrying my personal purchase Astra A-100 in .45 ACP which is a clone of the Sig, 10 shot with two extra mags gave me plenty of power and since we were a one car department with one man on duty at a time we relied on what was on our belts to protect our town and our lives. The old Astra never jammed on me, and I always qualified at the top of the list on our semi-annual qualification sessions. The only time I ever came in second was back when the old Sheriff who had been in office for over 30 years shot his rickity old Smith M&P .38. He rarely hit the target but the range officers gave him top score for showing up. Used to piss me off to no end but they were paid by the County and took care of their own on paper, I often wondered what would have happened if the old drunk had actually had to put the old .38 in action on a call?
Correction on the 10mm issue with FBI. The first offering of the 10mm generally had few problems. However, any problem is not acceptable when you are the agent carrying the gun. S&W offered to completely rebuild the 1076 through the Performance Center. I carried both 10s with the Bu. There were no failures with either gun in my division which was a top 10 office. My PC gun was serial number 10. It ran flawlessly, and many agents would not give up the PC 10s. S&W could not meet manufacturing deadlines so as to outfit current agents and new agents. The switch to another gun was made. You have to keep in mind that outfitting over 14000 agents of all shapes and sizes is a monumental task given that moment in time. It's easy to armchair quarterback when you aren't the one making the decisions given what was available in both guns and ammo. I carry one of two 10s to this day. You'll find a huge 10mm population out there given the variety of 10mm guns and the ammo. This didn't exist during the 1076 era. The 40 was an easy choice given its close ballistic performance to the 10mm. However, we have come full circle and are back to the 9mm with its new ammo offerings. There is no perfect handgun. There is only the handguns that you are capable of handling with proficiency and confidence.
Most jams on semi autos are from limp wristers. Remember many was going from a 38 revolver to a 10mm. I use to work at a gun store and newbies always bring back semis saying they jam all the time. Yes even glock. But you are right modern ammo what it is shoot whatever you can keep on target as it all does the job. The 9mm liberty defence will crank over 2000fps and defeat level 3A body Armor cutting a huge wound track.
@@robertgoodrich8953 If you are under 38, let's see if you can cut the mustard. There are 10s of thousands of applicants that must compete just to get in the door. My group was Navy Seals, decorated USMC Vietnam Vets, etc. The ones who didn't make it had bad attitudes, physical, firearms, and academic failures for scores under 85/100. You get one shot and then a ticket home. No retakes. Quit your job and step up for the challenge. There are underachievers and mere followers vs doers in every outfit. I was the primary sniper on SWAT, firearms instructor and TA running technical operations for the division for almost 30 years. I saw and trained FBI and many state LEOs. You can put just about any firearm in an officer's hands and they will shoot well if they can get the ammo and consistent training. FBI has 8 qualifications per year averaging 3 record runs per session requiring a minimum of 80% to qualify on each run. You don't qualify and you lose you gun and AUO equal to 25% of your pay until you do qualify. Continued failure and you don't have a job. I have told SACs I was going to take their gun if they didn't qualify and that was right up until I retired.
![Why Won't the Ruger Mini-14 Just Die? [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EzyGl_w-IXg/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why Won't the Ruger Mini-14 Just Die? [Part 1]](/img/tr.png)
I've lost every 10mm socket I've had, I can't imagine how many 10mm pistols I'd lose
Great comment. I never thought of this, but now, can’t stop laughing.
I lose half inch wrenches like crazy, but I think it'd be a lot harder to lose a .50" caliber revolver. 😂
😂😂😂😂😂
I’ve got 2 there hard to lose due to the blocky size of both
😂😂😂 smartellic
I always wondered how Glock was able to come out with a .40 pistol at the same time as S&W. To hear that Gaston himself actually sticky-fingered a few .40 cartridges at S&W's own SHOT Show booth is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.
Corporate warfare / espionage done in the most efficient manner.
That's hilarious.
What's funnier is S&W dropping the ball on their own cartridge. HK designed the USP to handle .40 S&W from the outset, yet Smith & Wesson thought a 9mm platform could handle the load and didn't bother doing the hard work required 🤷🏻♂️
The Sigma debacle and getting sued by Glock for patent infringement (IIRC you could actually put a Sigma slide onto a Glock, because they'd copied the slide rail design) kinda shows their attitude towards innovation.
@@mrkeogh Modern S&W seems to have gotten a lot better in the innovation metric, for what little innovation can be had anymore. Though their QC in their revolvers has dipped quite a bit
he gets away with that yet S&W get sued for the Sigma. His pistols may work But Glock is a total douche nozzle. Glock should be forced to pay S&W back all the money from the lawsuit.
It's funny how if it was a Chinese company that did the "sticky finger" the narrative would be so different.
This is my story about the S&W 10mm pistols. I started my LE career in January 1990. By spring of that year, our captain over training had convinced our chief and the city council that we needed to trade in our revolvers for semi-autos. The captain (a FBI Academy graduate) convinced them there was only one gun and caliber, the S&W in 10mm Auto "subsonic load". We had adopted the S&W 1006 by mid-summer. At least a third jammed regularly, mine included. My 1006 would fail to extract the spent case about every third round. I rarely made it through a magazine without 2 or 3 failures to extract. It was so bad I carried a S&W 3913 in an ankle holster for backup. I complained to the dept. armorer. He replaced the extracter. Jammed. He polished the chamber. Jammed. I told him i think the springs are too heavy for the light loads we fired. He disagreed. We argued. Guns continued to jam. I said it was the springs. We argued more. I gave up arguing. Then, about 1 1/2 - 2 years after we were issued the pistols, the armorer switched the springs out to lighter ones. What do you know? The guns stopped jamming. I told the armorer, "I told you so." He ignored me. I never did get an acknowledgment or apology from him...
That is the exact problem I had years ago with a Sat Night Special, a .25 semi-auto. Pull the trigger a little too fast & it would actually catch the spent cartridge as it was being rejected. Sort of a bounce exaggeration effect. Cure was to slow the trigger speed down & have no problems.
To be fair, nobody likes the "I told you so guy". I'm glad you were right & that it never cost you in the field.
@@sportdriver guy was a jerk!
@@rubberneckinc.8937especially the dude that was wrong 😄
@@rubberneckinc.8937 "Ayatollah Khomeini, Ayatollah Khomeini, Ayatollah so." Robin Williams.
The animation of Glaston Glock swiping the ammunition 🤣
Reminded me of the everlasting gobstopper in Willy Wonka.
Oh, those shifty Austrian scamps!
@@dukem6016And to think, had he only returned the cartridge, Glock could have inherited the whole S&W factory.
@@Tuberuser187 Pretty slick 🤌
Touche! @@hoilst265
Mr Glock secretly pocketing some S&W cartridges from the convention is absolutely hilarious.
what's most interesting is that he didn't assign some lacky to do the dirty work. he got on a plane and grabbed the bullets himself. interesting behaviour
He was a real G
@@theorenhobart
Is that illegal though?
The only secret about it was his identity. Those were FREE SAMPLES FOR ANYONE to grab.
@@theorenhobarthe probably didn't know about it in advance. He was probably a flash spare the moment idea.
I had a shooting buddy that purchased one of new S&W's late 1980 era 9MM autos. I was with him on the first trip to the range. We both noted that in its workmanship on finish of parts like the slide, the edges were so sharp you could almost shave with them, they didn't break the sharp corners like you would expect. He loaded the magazine, aimed it down range, pulled the trigger, and it emptied the magazine in a full auto display. He was a good marksman and maintained control and aim point during the second it took to empty the mag. Of course both of us said, "Cool!", but he packed it up, returned it to our gun shop, told our friend behind the counter what happened and said he wanted his money back, which they did. This was in the beginning of the ATF era of if you had any firearm that fired more than one round with one trigger pull for any reason, even if it was an ammo problem, or a firearm problem, you would be considered in possession of a full auto weapon and subject to the penalties of law. As far as I know, that is still the way it is. In one BATFE case many years ago as reported in American Rifleman magazine, the ATF was found complicit in falsifying evidence by loading test .223 ammo with the primers high, to show in a demonstration that the weapon was firing full auto, and was modified as such, even though it was a legally owned, commercially manufactured, and a properly operating unmodified AR15, charging the owner with possession of a machine gun. The story all started when his wife at the time, had called the ATF telling them her husband had a full auto AR, as revenge in divorce proceedings. Maybe the ATF wanted to save face and fake the evidence, but the ATF lost that one when defense lawyers got to the bottom of the ammo the ATF used. The judge admonished the ATF for such a corrupt practice. Of course, no one in the agency was every found guilty of trying to screw that fellow over.
In the US intent is needed to be charged with most crimes whether successful or not. There are exceptions like negligence.
I don't see how gun laws would get special treatment in that regard.
The ATF lawyers should be disbarred or at least suspended for presenting falsified evidence. There is an expectation of "candor to the tribunal" which they violated if they knew or reasonably should have known that the ATF was presenting false evidence.
@@IaintTheHerb The ATF is well known for stretching legal issues against gun owners. As soon as they came to my door, I would say, "talk to my lawyer, I have nothing to say to you."
@@clintwilde1048 I know a guy who was issued a brand new S&W model 39 in a police academy. First trip to the range he loaded 5 rounds into the mag. After inserting the mag and stepping up to the firing line he pulled the trigger. The pistol went full auto. They gave him a different gun and sent the broken one back to Smith.
atf needs to be disbanded, all agents arrested and thrown in prison
It still bugs me that the lesson the FBI took away from Miami-Dade was, "We had a half dozen agents mag dump their guns on two targets less than 7 yards away, and the number of shots they hit can be counted on one hand? Clearly, we need guns with more bullets in them! Tighten our firearms training? Pshaw! More bullets in gun!"
Mick, add, both perps were wearing handgun bulletproof vests.
@@tristantimothy1004 and shooting back.
"Accuracy through volume." Isn't that the Marine gunnery motto? LOL
Sonny Crockett swore by Smith & Wesson (Season 5 "Miami Vice"). That's about as real-life as faith in S&W gets.............
It's been long known that recreational shooters put in more range time than LEOs do. They barely practice enough to pass their annual weapon qualification.
I discovered the 10mm this year and it's a new favorite of mine. I think Paul Harrell's video on the 1986 Miami shootout is a good analysis of what the FBI did wrong.
all 10mm does is signal you don't shoot much, you don't compete, and you don't enroll in training courses.
@jessegpresley lmfao
I run my 10mm in USPSA and Steel Challenge, but okay
@CyborgZeta
I agree, Didn't really think much about the 10mm, more of a .45 9mm guy however my son was like give my Rock Island 10 a try,
Loved it, Got a Glock 20 and could not be happier.
@@CyborgZeta 10mm has been my favorite for a long time, I have an EDC G29, loved it so much I put my G20 in a META Tactical bullpup kit, and got the G40 MOS just for hogs. I got a range in my backyard, come to Florida, we'll hog hunt and unlike paper or steel targets, they move, and they move at you at a high rate of speed at firefight distance. Good training.
@@jessegpresley
Which tells me you don't either!
I went to a training regimen at the FBI academy in 1998. John Hall was my legal instructor, and he was brilliant. We never discussed the 10mm but had a lot of conversations about other firearms-related issues (policies, gun types, etc.). He was very approachable when he knew you were serious about the subject.
6:34 The fact that a brand new Glock $17 gen 5 costs ~$540 is actually not that bad when you consider that $560 in 1986 is the same as $1,549.74 in July 2024. I understand that it was a brand new and revolutionary design back then, but for Glock to keep the 17 basically the same price for almost 40 years is kinda cool, and I say this as someone who loves his PSA Dagger that was bought instead of a Glock.
My 1st glock 17 was 330 dollars bought in 1993 out of a gunshop in El Paso. Almosy all of my glocks have been purchased under 520 dollars fwiw.
The only difference is that the PSA Daggers firing pin is a little bigger than the original Glock Gen 3.
@@kfelix2934 All mine were above 800EUR and I live 30min ride from the factory :D. Does not make any sense.
I've owned the 17,19,20,21,22,23 and 29 with probably 30k rounds through all of them over 20 years and only had 3 FTF/FTE and two of them was from using that crappy Blazer aluminum for target shooting.
They are the AK of handguns and while many have an issue with the lack of external safeties I've never had one discharge from a drop nor have I had a kaboom.
The stories of them "going off by themselves" literally 99% of them have been from improper carry without holsters or items or clothing finding their way inside the trigger guard.
I've dropped one from 30 feet off a ladder onto the asphalt onto the back of the slide at an angle knocking the rear sight half off and it didn't discharge.
While the Glock platform even 5 generations deep is still a dated platform it was well ahead of its time and reliability isn't in question for me and I'll trust a Glock with my life any day of the week.
It's pretty bad when you consider it only costs them $40 to make a gun... and that includes every single cost the company ever has. (Insurance, health insurance, machines, tools, testing ammo, shipping, electricity, lawsuits/lawyers, etc... etc...). They're overpriced now, but they were way over-priced back then. They were good guns and they were ahead of all the other companies when it came to good, reliable light weight firearms... but I'm not convinced their guns were ever worth such a high price.
Manny's finger aggressively on the trigger the entire time is such a great little detail.
Also love the short circuit at the end there. Great stuff.
I totally missed that detail, as I was so stoked by the visual 80's vibe
How do you know the guy did not clear his gun maybe six times before the video start? You can do anything with an empty gun.
@@tonylam9548it's never empty.
Gotta admit, the "bow-chicka-bow-bow" music started playing in my head at 19:25....
@@ericbergfield6451 And the muzzle sweep of the cameraman.
(It was the eighties. Camerawomen didn't exist.)
Ill never forget the ammo crisis we were in post covid, in the states and i took notice of handgun cartridges that seemed to constantly being left on the shelf that cartridge being 10mm i who was a big glock fan before turning 21. I decided to look at glock 10mm model selections and choose my gen 4-40 mos, i immediately loved the gun for hunting,target, and comp even tho it was massive. I decided to tell a few friends about the gun who were inside some gun communities and they ended up purchasing g20’s because they liked the idea of freely purchasing the ammo knowing it was on the shelf. The following year its like i could never find 10mm apparently everyone got onto the gig but im glad the 10mm found its owners and is receiving some love!
I was hoping 357 sig would take off during those hard times. but nah...
What a well made mini doc. Some of this Glock VS s&w stuff would make a fun exaggerated biopic
It definitely would! I highly recommend reading "Glock: the Rise of America's Gun" by Paul Barrett for more entertaining Glock shenanigans. The 80-90s was a wild time for Glock. Did you know one of Gaston's associates hired a hitman to take him out? But he failed and Glock literally knocked the guy's teeth out. Too weird to be made up
@@LuckyGunner Hitman probably had a 10mm Lite FBI castoff
So instead of "Ford vs. Ferrari" we'd have "Glock vs. Smith & Wesson"............. I'm on-board. Let's do this.........................
@@LuckyGunner *Lieutenant Horatio Caine:* "Looks like the victim has... a 0.45" GAP in his teeth. 😎"
The 357 Sig is a more effective SD caliber than the .40 as well as being a superior barrier penetrating round. The 357 Sig is a lighter smaller gun easier to carry and conceal than the 10mm but just as effective at stopping fights. The 357 Sig is the best overall SD handgun ever made by the hand of man, just that simple.
FBI in 1986: hmmm we know we're dealing with 2 dangerous suspects armed with long guns....yeah we can wing it up our revolvers
They had two agents with SMGs but they were a couple of miles away getting busy with a waitress. And the rest of them were sitting on their body armor in case shots came from underneath the car.
There were 3 S&W Model 459 9mms used by FBI agents involved in the shootout.
And their sharpshooter who broke his glasses 🤦
The outlaws also had body armor. If that is true, even 10 mm will not save the day.
@@Galfrid that one I’m more inclined to believe someone as trained as him would have practiced without his glasses from time to time and engaged in suppressing fire by mag dumping into the bad guy car
Retired officer here. The reason we were given was female agents had a hard time with the grips and recoil. We had the 5906 9mm. Never got to shoot the 10mm.
I heard the same from a LEO armorer, he referred to the 40 as an ADA round for the less masculine
This is what I heard too. Size makes a difference! Have to be careful what you ask for!
Sexism is always the answer
I had a 5906 for a bit and it was terrible. Never got past 3 rounds without some malfunction, various ammo didnt matter.
@@509Gman Objective reality does not care about you feelings.
But a Godsend for Alaska.
Shooting ice bears?
@@holgerx541exactly that
Yeah. after the .44s .454s. etc a 10mm does not feel all that snappy ;)
45acp is still 👑
I’d take a revolver over a semi auto any day for bear defense. I know someone personally that was attacked and killed a brown bear with his revolver. By the time he got his gun out, the bear was already on top of him, literally. He said he was way under its neck and jammed his gun into is as hard as he could (he said he did so as the bear was thrashing side to side and scooting backwards on top of him, it was like a bucking horse) he fired 3 rounds as fast as he could. If he had a semi auto, he probably couldn’t have gotten one shot off, let alone three.
Very nice video. I went through the FBI Academy in 1991. We were initially issued and trained on the 1076 (also given instruction on the adoption of the 10mm round). I was a complete firearm novice when I arrived at the Academy and absolutely loved the 1076 and never experienced a malfunction and as I recall, none of my classmates did either. About halfway through the 16 week training, they took the 1076 from us and issued us the Sig P226 or 228 (they said the 1076 was going back to S&W for re-tooling). After a few years, in '94 or '95, those who trained on the 1076, were given the option of transitioning back to that weapon, so I immediately turned in my Sig. Then, in the early 2000s, I finally had to tun in my 1076 for the Glock 22 .40 cal. Of the 3 different pistols, I personally found the 1076 to be the most accurate. As a member of a SWAT Team, I also preferred the H&K MP5 10mm.
Props for a very well produced and professionally presented documentary piece! I'm a retired LEO Firearms Trainer, and shortly after the Miami FBI shootout, was sent a copy of the FBI training film of the Miami shootout by an Ex-LAPD officer in the Federal agency. Great job!
I have a copy of that tape!! 3+ hours, but a step by step portrayal of the event.
What a lot of Miami Vice fans don't realize is that Don Johnson didn't carry a 1911 .45 but he actually carried a Bren 10 for the first two seasons. Then, upon the demise of Bren 10, the producers didn't want to feature a weapon that was no longer available so, they went to his shiny Smith.
Everybody knows that
I don't know a single person that doesn't know sonny crocket had a bren 10.
@@justinriley8651 i’ve known people who thought it was a colt delta elite.
@@dbuck1964they probably think sonny Crockett is davys brother too!
Every MV fan knows this.
I've been very interested in 10mm for about 20 years and this is, by far, the best information I've heard so far! Well done, Sir!
What a great mini-documentary. Great production quality, sound, use of historical material. I’m subscribing
This is an incredible amount of research on a subject usually summed up and repeated in a sentence or two of gun culture mythology. Thanks for all your work!
The quality of your video editing continues to far outpace your peers. Music was especially well done in this one.
One of your best videos yet.
Congrats to everyone who made it happen.
Keep it up 😎
there are other retired agents who could probably add more details, but a couple of points:
1 - the Sig 226 was the 9mm handed out to almost everyone after the 10mm recall in 1991. the 228 was slowly brought in for those with small hands who found the 226 too big.
2 - another factor in keeping the S&W 10 was the distribution of H&K 10mm MP5 to SWAT teams. there was a desire to have a single cartridge.
3 - at the same time, the higher cost of the 10mm rounds was a factor.
I loved my 10 and kept it until the very end. i kept avoiding the PFI so he couldn’t force me to exchange it for the Glock. Maybe up until 2000/2001.
also, i was told that as part of the settlement for the contract cancellation, Smith ran the 2,400 or so 1076s that were finally accepted through their performance shop to get the tolerances down well enough to avoid the jamming problems. (some jammed so badly that neither armorers at Quantico nor even Smith could recover them.)
This is by far the best synopsis/ explanation for the 10mm being replaced by the 40s&w. at the time. Well done.
.40/10mm is a joke round! to trick silly people into buying it!
So, basically the .40 S&W is to the 10mm as the .380 is to the 9mm
@@MrJeffcoley1 No the .40/10mm are both pointless!
@@danquaylesitsspeltpotatoe8307
"Pointless?"
They're still generating money for the manufacturers that make them, and the weapons that fire them, are they not?
@@stickiedmin6508 Yes you can sell terrible things to dims! Thats why religion is so popular in the USA!
The trigger discipline in that ending promo. Too good😂😂😂
Very often, people that tunnel visioned on show biz have less time making sure a gun will work when needed in a hurry, they are so safe they would do something like leaving the safety on.
I hear you, that was hard to watch. Not setting a very good example for new shooters.
It's clearly meant to mock bad, outdated behaviors. You see a lot of old-school professionals handle guns like that in pictures, film and presentations.
@@andreivaldez2929lol the guy that wrote the golden rules bullshit has pics of him with finger on trigger, loaded and pointed at the camera man
My first duty pistol was the 4006….it was a POS. The problems were endless.
Eventually switched to the G22.
This video was excellent. Well made and put together. Almost documentary level.
Glock's marketing strategy was a straight copy of Apple Computer at the time. Apple offered IIC and IIE computers to school districts at below wholesale, basically considering those sales as part of their marketing budget.
An old technique used by many companies for many decades.
On the flip side, Microsoft did the same with Windows for businesses and that’s part of why Windows became dominant. Students would be required to use Windows regardless of what they used in school.
It's called loss leadership and depending on the extent of its use, the size of the company, and the long term plan it can range from a good way to get consumers to consider a new brand/product (Lexus in the 90s) or a way to create/solidify a monopoly and seriously harm consumers (most tech companies today)
they blamed the gun instead of shit tactics and dumbass "agents" in the Dadeland shootout
True dat
The sad thing is that there were a lot of guys on the training side of the FBI who took that incident very seriously and felt a burden to figure out how best to learn from it, including altering the tactics and procedures they were teaching. But the bureaucrats figured "9mm bad" was an easier way to dodge accountability and that nobody would question that conclusion and they mostly got away with it.
Well they’re dead. No need to call them dumbasses now
@granitejeepc3651 it's the ingrained culture. Legacy ideals stupid tactics. Stand shoot at q target. All branches of services and agencies have a stupendous case of forgetting hard learned lessons . Move shoot when target presents. Usually fbi were accountants, investigation or lawyers. Totally different from marines or grunts. So when they gave them a big iron Usually ended up in a desk drawer. That said taking on a rifle in the hands of a proven shooter. Is a bad day especially when hampered by policies and long guns in trunks.
@@LuckyGunnerAbsolutely correct!
I have a retired U.S. Marshal friend that was still working for the agency in the late 80’s & early 90’s. The USMS was really pushing the S&W 5906 but my buddy and his brother,also a U.S. Marshal ,both carried the Beretta 92 in 9mm.
Anytime they’d have to qualify they’d have 0 function issues with their Beretta 92’s but some of the other Marshal’s that opted for the S&W 5906 would have occasional issues.
Anything made in Italy or Germany has always been high quality and very dependable.
FBI in the 80's: Aggressively recruits college grads with degrees in accounting and math. FBI Shooting Stats: 15% accuracy. FBI Conclusions: Its the guns and ammo that are the problem
The FBI started out that way. It's literally called the Federal Bureau of INVESTIGATION. J. Edgar really only wanted to recruit people with law degrees and accounting backgrounds and didn't look for anybody with law enforcement or military backgrounds. They didn't even have arrest powers until the 30's and weren't issued sidearms until 1934. If they wanted to carry a gun, they had to buy it themselves. They were an investigative branch of the government, but when they started to tangle with gangster's in the 20's & and 30s, they started arming agents and giving them firearms training, before then they were on their own and had to supply everything on their own, ie, guns, rounds and paper targets to practice, and there was no formal training.
@@seandougherty2556 kinda disingenuous to say the FBI didnt have arrest powers until the '30's because before then it was a different agency with a different name. Its ability to arrest was indeed codified in the 30's but the preceding agencies from which the FBI emerged COULD arrest people and did, especially as part of prohibition in the 20's and before that when it was 'just' the BOI
Math makes wimps?
@@chesterfinecat7588 People with math degrees having lower probability (lol, math joke) of having a shooting background.
@@MM22966 CU pure math 1972. Dad handed me a Mauser at 14 “in case any Nazis need killed.” Who knew?
I could watch 10 hours of content like this a day. Please keep making historical videos like this.
Well done on the video... I was going to skip through it, but it was good enough to keep me watching. Nice job.
This is without doubt the best explanation of the FBI’s decision regarding the 10mm cartridge and the Smith & Wesson 1076 pistol. I watched the video expecting to offer corrections having personal experience in the matter. The only thing I can add is that the 10mm HK MP5 remained in service with the FBI until approximately 2017. So the 10mm cartridge was in active service with the FBI until then.
I think it makes sense as a carbine cartridge if the carbine is your personal weapon, I would imagine the ballistics are pretty awesome out of a longer barrel too.
Wrong, I worked in the gun vault form 2011-2014, there were absolutely NO 10mm MP5s in use at that time. The only 10mm we had was the original Thompson that's used for the dog and pony shows that come through. And very few MP5s where in use at that time, mostly HRT, SWAT and the Directors detail used them. They weren't issued to SAs, they were using the standard AR.
If you did indeed work in the gun vault at Quantico then you are no different that most everyone else that worked at Quantico or FBI Headquarters and you have no idea what was going on in any of the Field Offices. Just because New Agent Trainees are getting trained on a new firearm it doesn’t mean all other long guns in the Field Offices disappear. Also if you worked in the gun vault you would know that new agents are only issued their pistol when they leave Quantico. Long arms are issued by the field office. When I was at Quantico in 2000 I trained on a Glock 22 which I was issued upon graduation. I trained on the Remington 870 with a 14 inch barrel with rifle sights and synthetic stocks and the 10mm MP-5. When I got to my field office I was issued a Remington 870 Wingmaster with walnut stocks and a 20 inch barrel with a bead sight. Later I was also issued a 9mm MP-5 and an M16A1. Yes an M16A1 in 2000. It is no different today. New agents get trained on the newest long guns and get issued the newest pistols but the older firearms in the field don’t disappear. I retired in 2022 and know when I turned in my 10mm MP-5 in exchange for a 12.5 inch AR. I also spent 8 years on SWAT. I went through two Springfield Armory Professional Models, the original without a light rail and a second one with the light rail. We used the 10mm MP-5 for CQB and Colt M4A1s for outside work. We later transitioned to 12.5 inch M4s for everything and turned in the 10mm MP-5s around 2006 or so.
Just to clarify, The SWAT team I was assigned to turned in our MP-5s around 2006. After I left SWAT and went to another Field Office in 2012 I was issued an MP-5 in 10mm which I kept until around 2017.
@@StanleySlater-rr1nw Oh, I do know what's going on. EVERY firearm, whether it be FO or TD issued, came back to Quantico for inspection and repair (now sent to Redstone). Did I say they were issue by TD after graduation, nope, sure didn't, And older firearms, get sent back to QT(doesn't matter if the FO wants to or not) to be destroyed, It would make anyone sick the number of Thompsons, MP/10, Glocks (everything -new generation) Rem. 700s, and others. I've taken 1000's of firearms, loaded onto cardboard boxes and sent away. Sounds like you do a lot of Google searches😂, PS, i'm typing all this on UNET..Still at the Academy, 4yrs with FTU, 6 years at the Lab, now back with FLSD(HQ)..
The balls of Glock to steal the .40 and then sue S&W for making their own polymer pistol. 😄
There's definitely a disconnect for folks that can't seem to understand that taking a free sample of a round of ammunition is not the same as copying a firearm's design. The first is corporate espionage, and all it did was provide the technical data a few weeks/months earlier than it would have been available to the general public. The second is patent violation. Completely different issues.
@@vasky22 don't bother, the guy you're replying too is an bozo who doesn't understand the difference between making an gun based on an caliber, and blatant patient infringement of the gun itself
Any good idea is worth copping, can't blame them for looking over the wall and seeing a better idea..
That's business, a pool of sharks.
@@vasky22 Pretty much what I was going to say. It's Patent Violation.
Thanks for not just telling the 10mm saga, but showing to us the general US pistol market and trends in the '90.
It was very interesting.
We absolutely love these blast from the past documentaries. Especially the way you put them together. Keep it up.
It makes me feel my age when I hear all of those familiar names and remember being involved in the selection of a semi-auto for my department when our Sheriff finally gave up his "You'll never carry semi-autos" stand. Good video!
A lot of research and prep was put into this - excellent video man!
The best and most comprehensive history of the guns of this period in the FBI I have ever seen. I also read through all of your replies to the comments. The information in those replies really added details and interesting facts that were not in the video. Thanks for a terrific lesson!
I met John Hall in the summer of 1989 when he gave a lecture on the 10mm at the Jackson, MS Police Academy. Another guy and I drove 3 hours to be there. He was carrying a Colt Delta Elite. The Chief from Pelahatchie PD was there and he was carrying Glock and asked Hall if they had considered it. Hall said they hadn't. That was the first time I had ever seen a Police Officer with a Glock and he was the first Police Officer I had seen in uniform with a beard. That was a long time ago.
I also heard Hall use those words, "fully developed," when talking about .45 and 9mm.
Very interesting! From what I understand, the firearms training unit guys did not think highly of the Glock in the early 90s. They were very much dedicated to decock-only DA/SAs and the HRT guys were into 1911s. I love DA/SA, but if you've got to train an agency of 10K people, a Glock would make things a whole lot easier. Between turnover within the FTU and big city PDs having mostly positive feedback with Glocks, the anti-Glock sentiment at the FBI had cooled considerably by the late 90s.
The "fully developed" line is my favorite bit of irony from this whole thing
@@LuckyGunner I didn't understand what was wrong with being fully developed. I would have thought that was a good thing. But that's what the man said.
@@JasperFromMSit sounds like he thought those calibers had reached peak ballistic capability. No matter how much R&D went into them at that point, you weren't going to get any more performance. We know now that's not true, but i think that was the point.
Just want to say I appreciate the research and time it took you to put this video together. Lots of history and vintage footage/pictures. Really well done!
Manny cameo in full 80s black tactical gear with the sunglasses made my day 😎
Totally worth the wait!!!
"Plastic puppy popper" Holy shit i am losing it lmao 🤣🤣
This video is one of my favorite LGA videos yet. Extremely informative and well written.
I started my LE career right after the FBI Miami shootout and was less than totally confident in the Beretta 92F loaded with 1st Gen Silvertips that I began my police career with. The gun was fine, but I wasn't sold on 9mm performance. When the 10mm came out I purchased and carried a S&W 1006 as my duty pistol from 1990-1996, but sneered at the FBI Lite loads. I carried full house (mostly Cor-Bon 135 gr) loads. Loved the cartridge, but the pistol would break parts and fail every few thousand rounds. When I sent it back to Smith to be re-built for the 3rd time I decided it was never going back in my holster, so I swapped to an "ugly as a bag of a**holes" G22, but at least the ugly thing worked and didn't destroy itself. Once 9mm duty ammo reached a point where there wasn't a hair's difference in performance with 40, 45, or 357 I swapped to a G17 and carried that until retirement in 2017. Chris is spot on with my recollection of the history, although he failed to mention that Sonny Crockett carried a Bren 10 in the first few seasons of Miami Vice.
any specific load/brand of 9mm you recommend?
Good reason he skipped the Bren; it was crap. I had two Standard Models and neither would finish a mag. The foremost experts on D&D are adamant that they should NEVER be fired because the metal is full of voids and can fracture with shocking regularity.
@@ahhamartinI heard the scarcity in magazines was also a big deal at the time.
@@ahhamartinat least you HAD a magazine, LOL ..
Back in the 80's I had a Cop buddy who loves offbeat pistols & he forked out some serious money ordering a Bren Ten as soon as they can out ...he eventually received his pistol but he never did find any magazines for it...
The one pistol he had that I wish I could have talked him out of was a custom ASP 9mm...
@@bradenchurch552The tragic saga of the Bren 10. Cooper was a gun guy. He got his pet project into the hands of people who weren't and moved on. The magazines were outsourced. Who builds guns and magazines separately? Good business people. At least, good 1980s biz folks. Don't know who was in charge of QC over at Brno, but they probably smelled a scam. Anyway, the 10mm, as envisioned by Cooper, was meant to put .357 Magnum power into the 1911 platform. So stated by Cooper himself. Now, the hot number is just that.
Along with Gaston Glock, Sonny Crockett should get some credit for keeping 10mm in production during the 80's and 90s.
That's the first thing I think of when I hear '10mm'.
The period appropriate title cards for the dates are a great touch, and the outro gave me a good giggle. Thanks for an interesting and informative video.
This whole story reminds me of the tale of the .41 magnum back when cops carried revolvers. They loaded full magnum hunting loads and a sort of “.41 special” level load intended for police use. But departments bought Model 58’s and issued the full power stuff. No surprise that cops who’d carried Model 10’s in .38 suddenly couldn’t qualify with full .41 magnums, and the N-frame was a lot of gun to carry all day.
Some of the more "progressive" departments in California (yeah the left coast was pretty leftie even back then) banned the carry of anything with "Magnum" in the name. As a result, some of the more serious shooters ended up carrying Smith Model 25s in 45 Colt.
@@Rocketsong Model 25 is an excellent gun as revolvers go.
Yay Chris!!!! I was hoping we hadn’t lost you.
Thanks! I've been right here the whole time!
@@LuckyGunnerright where?
@@LuckyGunnerbrother please do a
.357 mag and 10 mm comparisong like underwood ammo and similar strength ammo. i have been requesting this for years. Thank you btw for your huge effort on this mini documentaries.
This maybe the single best video I have ever watched on UA-cam. As an OG Gen X’er the G&A ads were a blast from the past.
I've learned so much with this format, pls keep the historical content like this coming, I love the adoption of calibers by institutions and whats behind those specially 10/10 !
It's nice to see a 40/10mm video that isn't filled with 10mm snobbery or macho garbage.
Being a fan of both 40 and 10mm its nice to learn more about them due to both rounds having a very interesting history.
The best yet, Chris!
Pretty cool dude at the end!
"How dare the filthy plebs have better guns than we have.", said every LEO, everywhere, every day.
No, it's more like "why can't they buy us a decent pistol?" I will say that the 4006, despite its heftiness, was quite the tack driver.
@@jeffduncan9140 If you say so. Every cop I have ever met was an arrogant piece of trash. And if you weren't Blue, you weren't worthy to address them.
No they do not. But they have an understandable interest in being better armed than you in case someone pulls your safety pin.
@@carlsasau6162 Oh boohoo. With the crappy cops out there today it's far more important to be better armed than "them".
The 10mm / .40 "Commercial" at the end was straight fire. It should honestly be uploaded as a separate UA-cam short if at all possible, with a link to the main video. That sort of thing could honestly go viral.
Manny is the man, man.
This is probably the most accurate video I've seen regarding the history of the 10mm and the development of the .40S&W. You have no idea how many videos i watch or stories I read that were incorrect. I was hesitant at warching this, thinking it would be just as inaccurate. It isn't. Well done, sir. Well done.
As a teenager in the 1980's ... we all knew about the 10mm and the Bren Ten ... due to Miami Vice and "Sonny Crocket".
Anytime Sonny pulled out his Bren, we knew a Bad Guy was going down.
@@hillyseattlenarrowstreets6087 ...along with his helicopter (which my dad, a Tet Vet, said was actually totally believable).
Those were the times! The 80’s…
Outstanding work on this in-depth and well-produced documentary. I knew bits and pieces of these various story-lines, but you put things together in a manner that was riveting to watch and really informative. This is pro-level. Well Done!
Thanks! I put a lot into this one, and I’m glad people are enjoying it!
Wow! I had no idea you not only had a YT, but a dang successful channel with absolute banger content! So glad I found you guys!
Colt Delta Elite was a dream gun for me for many years back in the day. Now I have a RIA double stack (beast of a gun) and an M&P. I do like the cartridge.
Am of the same opinion. The RIA double stack was my first 10mm. My EDC is Springfield XMD
The Colt Delta Elite had issues with frames cracking. You made the right choice with the RIA..
@@RevolverOcelot79 My "back in the day" comment was WAYYYYYY Back in the day. Like in the 80's when it was first introduced and I was a broke college student.
@@tommyj7087 Ahh ok. You’re a bit older than I am. I was born in 79’. 😅
I was a poor clerk back when the Delta Elites hit the Market, They were so beautiful, the only 1911 pistol I ever wanted. They sold as fast as we could get them in up in Alaska. I still don't have one even though I could afford one now. Perhaps I will sell my 1006 and buy one.
15:34 So it was Manny Mansfield not seeing Glock stealing some .40 S&W at his 990s Shot Show booth. This Manny Multiverse is getting awesome.
Fudd lore put to rest finally. The notion that 10mm was too much for the FBI was the biggest fudd lore in existance. Thank you.
Except it was too much. Too much weight, too big a grip, and too much recoil. Did you even watch the video? They downgraded the cartridge for a reason, and they switched to a cartridge with identical performance to that downgraded version but with a smaller grip as soon as they were able to.
@@Bacteriophagebs that is exactly my point. They got the performance they needed in a smaller frame pistol with the .40 cal.
Some .40 caliber info. When Aberdeen Proving Ground tested all available .40 S&W semi autos (made in the USA) for the USBP / INS contract there were indeed some surprises. All three Glock 22s and three Glock 23s catastrophically failed between 6,000 and 8,000 rounds. Glock added locking block pins in later models, which cured the problem, but didn’t participate the 2nd and 3rd years of testing. The best and final offer 3rd year tests were very interesting when considering the results of the reliability / durability tests and the ammunition compatibility tests. They were as follows:
Reliability / Durability 10,000 round test with three sample weapons tested.
- Smith and Wesson 4006 = 1500 malfunctions average
- H-K USP 40 = 115 malfunctions average
- Sig Sauer P229 = 29 malfunctions average
- Beretta 96D Brigadier = 4 malfunctions average
Ammunition Compatibility Tests of all available .40 Ammunition (Test was firing three full magazines of each type without a malfunction.)
- All weapon samples failed except the Beretta 96D Brigadier!
The other tests were:
- Accuracy tests
- Sand and dust tests
- Corrosion tests
- Drop tests
- Plugged barrel tests
- Parts interchangeability tests
- High temperature tests (140F)
- Low temperature tests (-40F)
Been a while, but I think that is it.
Do you mean the DHS tests in 2004? If so, that's odd cuzz in 1997 the FBI went G22/23 after they passed a 160K test (20K x 8 pistols). The DHS did not test USPs in 2004, but they did test USPC/P2000/P2000SK. DHS went SIG and HK in 04, ended up with Glocks in 9x19 eventually.
@kentwilliams3326 Hi, could I ask where you found this information? I find it extremely interesting to say the least...maybe the 96s weren't as bad as they were reputed to be??? Is the information publicly available?
Thankyou
@@mikeorick6898No sir. These tests were conducted at Aberdeen Proving Ground and at LosFresnos, Texas for ergonomic testing. (1992 - 1995)
@@danielgreen6547Hi Daniel. The info is from my personal experience when stationed at the U.S. Border Patrol / INS National Firearms Unit. I was the acting liaison between Aberdeen and the NFU.
Been huge fan of 10mm for at least 10 years. People are always saying "but its over $2 a shot", but current prices are almost equivalent to 45acp now. The only real issue with 10mm is its not as good suppressed being supersonic.
Laugh how you want but i have a 10mm HiPoint pistol for bear protection when camping because i dont care if it gets beaten up. Built a 10mm PCC i love. My Colt Delta Elite is my pride and joy.
My only 10mm i dont like is my S&W 610 revolver, way too big and heavy, tall bore axis, 6 rounds requiring moon clips, heavy DA trigger. the Delta Elite blows it away in ever category and just as accurate
"10mm is not as good subsonic."
Just use 10mm short. Usually works in 10mm platforms without any modification. Usually subsonic. Half the above video was about it.
Delta Elite since 1991.
😉👍
How are the Delta Elites aging? I was shopping for a weapon back then, and I remember reading about the Delta Elites getting chewed up by the 10mm ammo. One review mentioned that the Delta Elite he tested showed wear from the recoil after just the first box was fired through it.
I went on to a Beretta 92F, but I always wondered about the Delta.
@@advo1053 while my DE is nowhere as old as his, i have had no issues with mine with about 1k rounds through it. but i hear the older DE had issues and it was resolved by a small cutout in the frame.
i bought a M9A1 at the same time i bought my DE. i just cant get into it. even with thinner grips, its soo wide. and i cant seem to shoot it very accurate either.
Thanks! I appreciate the reply.
I worked for a police dept from '98 to 2011 and we were issued the 1076 10 mm as a sevice weapon for most of that time. It was nicknamed the "boat anchor". The dept finally switched to the .45 s&w m&p.
Bravo! THE most comprehensive explanation of the 10mm PERIOD!
This Lucky Gunner video is the best explanation of the FBI's 10mm I've seen since FBI adopted the 10mm.
10mm 180gr and .45 ACP 230gr have the same sectional density. The FBI's reduced velocity 10mm 180gr was about 100 fps faster than .45 ACP 230gr, so, in the context of sectional density, the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm 180gr load was, in essence, a souped-up .45 ACP 230gr load.
The retro ad at the end is hilarious, just a cherry on top of an excellent video.
In the late 80s the FBI that said the Glock was a bad idea because it was not safe enough. In the late 90s they issued them. Same Glock, different people behind the same desks. They may have had a point. NYPD's UID rate with their 11lb trigger is about 15%. The DOJ's (FBI, ATF, USM, DEA) with their 5.5lb triggers is about 30%. That's over a five- year period with about the same number of armed people (35,000).
NYPD's triggers were awful. They did it intentionally, they wanted it to be like the double action trigger pull, which made it worse for accuracy. The NYPD always discouraged the Cops knowing about firearms, because they were afraid you might use it. CYA instead of giving a damn about Officer's actual safety.
@@johncurry6260 NYPD considered a change to lighter triggers 3 years ago (2021) but scrapped that and did not follow through en masse. NYPD did a test where they compared Q scores with the std and heavy NYPD trigger. The std trigger scores were 5 points higher (88 v 93). That's it. Some were given std triggers. UIDs went from 4 to 11 the next year (2022). There was no MOS killed in 2021, there were 2 in 2022. Were the lighter triggers at fault? Who knows, but it may have scared them off.
11 lbs?! No way a Petite NYPD agent with small hands is hitting anything shes aiming at. Thats dangerous.
@@mr.coffee6242 They do qualify with them. About the same weight or less as their old DA revolvers or backup snubbies. Hit rates with the Glocks is about the same as their old revolvers (from 8-30%).
Ive been a 10mm pistol shooter for 2 decades. In my view , it is a flat shooting very accurate hard hitting round. Something once only found in revolvers. The recoil is very similar to .45 acp. I think it was a big mistake for the fbi to walk away from 10mm. In fact 10 can be and often is loaded to .40 spec.
Your last sentence completely contradicts the need for a 10mm! This is coming from a guy who owns a Glock 20. If you want the rank and file to carry ammo that's neutered to 40 levels then wouldn't you think it makes sense to use the 40 S&W cartridge?
@@joeblowe7545 All Im saying is that if you are a weak wristed female and can shoot .40 you can also shoot 10mm loaded to .40 just like .38 instead of .357
Glock 20? Yeah ho hum me too
Very well researched vid. I'm pretty well versed on the topic, learned some stuff from this vid. Must watch for any gun nerds and gun history buffs.
That ending was PERFECT. Manny's Baldwinian levels of trigger discipline (and muzzle sweeping the camera) got a good chuckle.
The only guy I ever seen handle a 10mm really good was a Miami Vice cop Sonny Crockett. Back in the 80's. He could handle the recoil like I've never seen. His Bren Ten never moved in his hand.
Blanks. Also in Nash Bridges he used a .38super not 10mm. Custom 1911a1.
At least one person did not get the joke.
The bottom line is Sonny Crockett did for the 10 mm what Clint Eastwood did for the 44 Magnum and all the dirty Harry movies😊
Yeah, they shoot weak blanks when filming then add SOUND EFFECTS for the "boom" you hear on the show. Everything in TV and the movies is FAKE!!
I always wondered why nobody just called it 1cm instead of 10mm. I've learned so much from your videos over the years, Chris. Thank you so much for the thorough work and research. You really are doing so much more than just selling ammo: you have contributed more greatly than you may ever know.
You really outdid yourself. This is one of the best videos I've seen from you. Bravo, excellent history lesson.
This is a really well put together video. I enjoyed the entire thing, I actually learned something.
This was great!! I had read that the S&W 10mm grip was too large for many female FBI agents, so this video confirmed that. Lately, I've read that the FBI says that the definitive factor in a gunfight is NOT knockdown power, but sheer number of rounds available - hence the backtrack to 9mm, large magazine autos. Keep calm, tackle hard!
This is a freaking documentary. Not just on the 10mm, but a way-above-the bar production for semi-auto cartridge reviews.
Ahh, the 10mm...Alaska's official state cartridge. It adorns the most chest holsters up here. :)
great bear stopper
It's what I carry here in western Wyoming when in grizz country.
@@jonsonnenschein1253 we also carry it in the streets of Abq, streets and mountains actually. It goes anywhere
@@jonosterman2878 I agree.
How is it up there in the cities? I hear there's a shit-ton of crime in both Anchorage and Fairbanks.
The reason a 10mm pistol, the same physical size as a .45, was initially accepted, was magazine capacity was a lot more than a standard 1911 .45 pistol. People wanted the stopping power approaching the .45, with the magazine capacity of a 9mm.
The .40 didn't have the size drawback of .45 sized pistol.
Chris, you went all out with this video. We even got to see Manny at the end!
I think a big reason was that most small frame and female agents could not handle recoil. To be blunt.
This was the real reason
I'm sure there were more than a few male agents who couldn't handle it either.
Feds have weak wrists, shocker
@jonsonnenschein1253 that's why he said "small frame", to include smaller male agents.
Not really. That's kind of a myth. Number of agents were never that high. Still not today.
15% accuracy (From the F.B.I.). That in a nutshell describes the disaster of that (One) engagement, but should also raise the eyebrows of EVERYONE in Govt./Courts/Law Enforcement (And by default/other, the military, who TENDS to take marksmanship a bit more 'Serious'?). It doesn't matter what you're shooting, caliber/power wise. If you can't HIT what you need to, all you're doing is endangering everyone within the impact zone(s), and property.
Great video. The larger and more progressive departments were all carrying 9mm or .45 ACP (not .38 Spl) by the early 1980's. The FBI was slow to adopt anything new. The mid-size department I worked for in California issued S&W model 59 (double-stack 9mm, 15 +1) beginning in 1979.
A couple of books on the FBI and the 1986 shootout that are well worth reading are "The Guns of the FBI" by Vanderpool, and "FBI Miami Firefight" by Mireles. I met Vanderpool when I went through the FBI Firearms Instructor School in 1982, and Mireles was one of the agents in the 1986 shootout.
The early versions of the S&W 10mm pistols were poorly designed and had frequent mechanical problems, likely because S&W rushed them to market.
The official reason the FBI switched from .40 S&W to 9mm was "cost", both in terms of ammunition and firearms. A part of that "cost" factor is that guns chambered for 9mm last longer than those chambered for .40 S&W. An undisclosed but well known factor for the change is that the FBI hires many non-athletic people who routinely struggle to qualify with a .40 (and who could NOT qualify with a 10mm - ever). These non-athletic new hires do better with a 9mm. It is also true that switching to a 9mm would save the FBI a significant amount of money, though many of us in the industry doubt that "cost" is the true primary reason.
One of the factors usually left undiscussed is that available ammo choices in 1980's and 1990's were limited, and back then the ammo was ballistically inferior (for defensive purposes) to ammo available today. That said, the .40 S&W is a superior defensive round to the 9mm, but once the FBI switched, the civilian law enforcement market began to follow suit - and the result is that the .40 S&W continues to fade in popularity.
@@DadHominem Right after they switched back from .40 cal to 9mm a retired cop told me "the real reason is because the (new) FBIs desk jockeys couldn't handle the .40 Cal recoil". He didn't say 'new' but I included it because I heard they got even softer in the last 15+ years or so. In fact, another guy said since (I think) "the patriot act" they've become more an intelligence agency than LE.
I agree. People have been lost to the fact that 40 is a superior caliber to the nine.
IMO, nine is the least caliber that I would consider effective.
The real reason the FBI went back to the 9mm, is that all Federal agencies now buy ammo through a common supply channel, greatly lowering the cost due to volume. And of course, a 9mm round contains less powder and lead, so there is an additional cost saving.
THE RETURN OF MANNY!!!!
Hey Chris - here is my petition for Lucky Gunner to ship ammo to FFL03/COE licensees in California! Palmetto and Brownells do it, it would be awesome if you guys would too!
Such a well-produced video. Excellent work.
Great that you mention poor tactics and mediocre accuracy. So FBI blamed the weapon. Of course, we have greatly improved bullet design partly as a result!
Playing trap music when Glock shows up is fucking hilarious. Good doc!
Excellent UA-cam Mr. Lucky.
Shot placement is everything in a gun fight. I was trained by the best at LA County Sheriff in '72 using a S&W Model 15 .38+p. With only 6 to use you made sure you were more than decent at hitting things inside 25 yards. They went with the .38+p for the very good reason. In an urban environment of millions the department did not want the bad press of overshooting the target by spraying .357s all over the place.
Then came the late 70s and early 80s. More women and smaller stature people were getting hired, as well as the politics of cops in a new kinder-gentler trendy society. 9mm was always around but not popular because the ballistics and stopping performance just never measured up. The bullet makers went to the drawing board and came back with better ammo. Then came GLOCK. Voila! The bean counters in the city/ county police accounting department got their dream of giving the cops something at a cheap enough price they could get a promotion and a pay raise. The newer generation of cop managers in the mid 80s were allowed to get away with diverting some training dollars, time and accuracy by qualifying their troops by hitting the "bottle" was good enough. That pesky 10 ring stuff and 290 out of 300 scoring was too tough get to. And to pay for. Now they simply emptied 15 rounds down range, hoped for the best and reloaded. 9mm was pretty cheap stuff to buy by the caseload. And so, propaganda aside, we arrive at todays choice of gun and bullets.
The 10mm, .45, 40 and all that simply proves that a handgun is a weak sister to a rifle or shotgun when it comes to stopping mammals. The tradeoff is always shooters ability "under fire," not the bullet. I don't want to be shot by any of them. If you want to kill someone simply pepper him/her/ non binary it with .22LR ammunition. 10-20 minutes later it will fall over dead from bleeding out internally. The nightmare of any ER doctor.
The FBI case (and equally the Calif. Highway Patrol Newhall incident) is something that could and does happen on any day and anyplace in humandom. It is not the weapon, bullet weight or feet per second speed. It is the shooters luck and ability to prevail. Which is to say ground into dust automatic reaction training and a mental ability to power through fear of dying, all while accurately placing shots like a Boston Dynamics dog. That grasshopper is your law enforcement challenge should you choose to accept it. Many times cops are having it out with people who don't care if they die, they only want you to go first.
IMHO 10mm is like a 454 or 44MAG. Great for bear hunting. You'll need it. Just be prepared to be deaf, dumb and blind after the first round or two in a real (not earmuffed daytime at the range) situation.
Y'all laugh at the Mini-14, but the aggressive use of one caused all of this...😂
Even a Mini can hit a man at 30 yards.
Basically a ar15 in a different wrapper. I always laugh at all the "assault" rifle haters overlooking them.
A semi auto 22cal can cause havoc
@@jvmiller1995
They just don't look mean enough, with their wood furniture to hold down the moniker of Assault Rifle 😊 even though within 200 yards, the Mini-14 is just as deadly as the AR-15....
Only thing is, the AR-15 Platform is way more versatile than the mini-14....
Not to Mention, everyone is so hung up on 1MOA that everyone forgets the ARMY standard for the M-16 Battle Rifle is 3-6 MOA depending....
So the 2MOA My Mini-14 delivered seemed just fine to me....
@@LDR1100RSMy buddy was building a stainless mini and the problem was after 3 or 4 rounds the barrel would heat up and move. I made him a 2 piece clamp on barrel stiffener and it would hold 1 in groups @ 100 yds all day long.
10mm being a niche cartridge for outdoorsman and hunters is awesome. It didn't die, just find a new role. I'm not sure why .40 "lost" to 9mm. .40 performs great. That should be part 2 of this.
Logistics is the main reason why the .40 was ditched for 9mm.
The critical duty in 9mm was able to get the performance the FBI wanted, so they decided to go with 9mm due to cheaper ammo and the performance from factory .40 is only slightly better than 9mm premium ammo.
The FBI also couldn't handle the 40s&w and law enforcement followed.
9mm+p happened
It's not any better, is harder on the gun, is more expensive, requires more resources to manufacture, and holds fewer rounds.
@franktalarico689 is it any harder on the gun than a 45? What "more" resources are required? If you can't get it done in 14 shots, you need a different hobby. 🤷♂️
It'd be great if you made some content surrounding the .38 special specifically (non +P). I'd like to see you run it through lever actions, etc., comparing it's ballistics to revolvers of various lengths.
By the time the centimeter round had been developed, AE was already making and marketing the .41 Action Express, which could be fired out of a 9mm with a simple barrel swap, as such it was pretty self evident that a shorter .400 or .414 caliber cartridge could be made to work in a standard 9mm frame.
Autumn's Armory did the 10mm. If a 10 year old girl can handle it like a pro, what does that say about the FBI?
The 10mm ammo today isn't loaded up the same as it was when it first came out.
@Ren505nm and the FBI loads were never on that level either. Modern 180gr 1200fps loads which are relatively common and affordable, are more powerful than what the FBI ever issued/used/tested
They can’t even holster their weapons properly lol
I am sure she did not fire 5000 rounds in a few weeks. Also, FBI agents are not gun enthusiasts who spend every spare minute at the range. For them a gun is a tool, not a deity.
It doesn't matter if new 10mm is basically .40s&w because she was like what, 9 years old and handled it fine. Keep in mind that the FBI moved away from .40s&w because even that was apparently too strong for them.@Ren505nm
Carried the Glock 22 .40 for years, as long as you didn’t jam too many rounds in the magazine, it worked flawlessly. Magazine held 16, I never put more than 15 in it after getting a stove pipe on the range.
10mm from a G20 Glock has less recoil that a Kimber all steel 1911 5" ... frame flex
1 minute in and you're telling me the FBI was less than truthful. I'm SHOCKED 😂
When I started in law enforcement, I was issued a Model 19 Smith in .357 Mag, we trained with target .38 special ammo and our duty loads were full bore .357 magnum 125 grain semi-jacket hollow point. When I retired in 1993 I was carrying my personal purchase Astra A-100 in .45 ACP which is a clone of the Sig, 10 shot with two extra mags gave me plenty of power and since we were a one car department with one man on duty at a time we relied on what was on our belts to protect our town and our lives. The old Astra never jammed on me, and I always qualified at the top of the list on our semi-annual qualification sessions. The only time I ever came in second was back when the old Sheriff who had been in office for over 30 years shot his rickity old Smith M&P .38. He rarely hit the target but the range officers gave him top score for showing up. Used to piss me off to no end but they were paid by the County and took care of their own on paper, I often wondered what would have happened if the old drunk had actually had to put the old .38 in action on a call?
Correction on the 10mm issue with FBI. The first offering of the 10mm generally had few problems. However, any problem is not acceptable when you are the agent carrying the gun. S&W offered to completely rebuild the 1076 through the Performance Center. I carried both 10s with the Bu. There were no failures with either gun in my division which was a top 10 office. My PC gun was serial number 10. It ran flawlessly, and many agents would not give up the PC 10s. S&W could not meet manufacturing deadlines so as to outfit current agents and new agents. The switch to another gun was made. You have to keep in mind that outfitting over 14000 agents of all shapes and sizes is a monumental task given that moment in time. It's easy to armchair quarterback when you aren't the one making the decisions given what was available in both guns and ammo. I carry one of two 10s to this day. You'll find a huge 10mm population out there given the variety of 10mm guns and the ammo. This didn't exist during the 1076 era. The 40 was an easy choice given its close ballistic performance to the 10mm. However, we have come full circle and are back to the 9mm with its new ammo offerings. There is no perfect handgun. There is only the handguns that you are capable of handling with proficiency and confidence.
Most jams on semi autos are from limp wristers. Remember many was going from a 38 revolver to a 10mm. I use to work at a gun store and newbies always bring back semis saying they jam all the time. Yes even glock. But you are right modern ammo what it is shoot whatever you can keep on target as it all does the job. The 9mm liberty defence will crank over 2000fps and defeat level 3A body Armor cutting a huge wound track.
So, what you are saying is that the candy corn that we have for Federal Agents can only handle a beginner pistol.
@@robertgoodrich8953 If you are under 38, let's see if you can cut the mustard. There are 10s of thousands of applicants that must compete just to get in the door. My group was Navy Seals, decorated USMC Vietnam Vets, etc. The ones who didn't make it had bad attitudes, physical, firearms, and academic failures for scores under 85/100. You get one shot and then a ticket home. No retakes. Quit your job and step up for the challenge. There are underachievers and mere followers vs doers in every outfit. I was the primary sniper on SWAT, firearms instructor and TA running technical operations for the division for almost 30 years. I saw and trained FBI and many state LEOs. You can put just about any firearm in an officer's hands and they will shoot well if they can get the ammo and consistent training. FBI has 8 qualifications per year averaging 3 record runs per session requiring a minimum of 80% to qualify on each run. You don't qualify and you lose you gun and AUO equal to 25% of your pay until you do qualify. Continued failure and you don't have a job. I have told SACs I was going to take their gun if they didn't qualify and that was right up until I retired.