Namco's Female Fighters | Wasted Plotential
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2020
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#NamcoVsWomenOver40 #JusticeForJun #GoSaveCassandraFromTheVoid #Kunimitsu - Ігри
Also, it's bold of them to assume that middle-aged and older women can't be hot
Imagine being so naive as to not realise the truth of the matter...
True and they are fighters so you know they stay healthy 24/7
It's kind of a shame that KOF has 2 hot "older women." They are both only 30.
@@The4thSnake you know Cynthia Rothrock? She's in her 60s and still got it going on!
Well, this is what we get when our media is being produced by InCels and dirty old men
It's pretty obvious why this is happening, with Japan's obsession in regards to female youth, but it really is annoying when you are actually invested in the story of these stupid games. It's obvious that the developers replacing characters with boring copies has really hampered the stories of these games, especially Tekken, from actually going somewhere interesting, and I think it would actually be better for them to not have a story at all at that point. But then they would lose the morons like me who actually care and we are back at the start.
The obvious solution would be to have MILF and GILF galore, but with some way of playing the characters as their younger self, so that the story could have proper development, and those who are intimidated by sexy older women could have their eternally young waifus. Win-win. If skins aren't enough, then make up some stupid in-universe explanation for them to stay eternally young, like chi or some shit (like Tsunade in Naruto). If it's the only choice, then I would rather keep the characters and their development and have them never age, than replacing them with less interesting copies that they never do anything with.
Great video man. Keep up the good work.
Like hammon in the beginning of Jojo. Making the MC's mom of part 2 look 26 and like 30+ years later making him still look jacked eventhough he has white hair.
Me: *Doesn't know what a GILF is*
*Searches it on google*
*Gets traumaticed*
I will find you and change you physically!
@@dirckthedork-knight1201 Sorry man. XD
@@freaknr1 Genkai from Yu Yu Hakusdo is proof that old lady's are popular in anime, but it doesn't seem that way for video games.
So, like Ivy Valentine?
The idea of an aged husband and wife duo is wonderfully intimidating to think about if done right, especially if used to tutor in the new generation. I mean imagine the story talking about this imposing master, and so the new guys end up fighting said old master who whups their asses but is barely overcome, only for the wife of said old master to say that he was taking it too easy on them and then she throttles the everliving shit out of the newbies.
Real late but you could also have scenes where the old couple are fighting off assassins or something while bantering about basic household stuff, like if the laundry's been done or if the lawn's been mowed
Introducing KOF: the concept of time does not exist there.
That's the best solution to be honest. They should stop worrying about timeline and focus on characters and gameplay.
@@nemesis3587 No it's not. The games act like months have passed when Kula is still a 14 year old jail bait.
@@blackout1524 Who cares? She is a weird clone like cyborg or whatever the hell she is. As long as the game could include characters I love like Rock Howard, I really don't care. I just don't want characters cut because of timeline reasons.
Weirdly while all Garou characters finally appear in KOF2003 onwards in timeline, Rock Howard still little boy in this game.... until KOFXIV finally decide stop this and make Rock a teenager.
I'm heard this was cased SNK executive tried not age Rock Howard for marketing despited others new generations Garou appear without him
@@nemesis3587 yes in a sense
Finally i can hear you talk about tekken and Namco as a whole
Finally I hear the neglect of Soulcalibur by Bandai Namco as a whole.
You've brought very important points. It's like the plot is thrown to the wind when we want a cohesive narrative and a character that ages and continues it. In the case of tekken they had the opportunity to bring jun and michelle back, Michelle could've in the least appeared in julia's stories rather than julia becoming a twitch streamer with no personality (an issue already showing post tekken 4), jun existed as jin's conscience in T4 in his ending, a nice touch yet she could've completed the mishima story of jin's og plot in t5 by returning (imagine jin defeating the t5 jinpachi, returning home and finding his mother again). Nina and anna deserve aging, at least we could have some identity given to them rather than just sister fight plot recycling since t1 (t3 and t4 did them justice by nina burying the hatchet in 3 and her amnesiac life in t4, in t3 anna tries to help her sister regain her memories). Honestly, Midway and nrs handeled character aging good (see mkd sindel and mkx sonya).
I believe this calls for a further discourse, on how female fighters are fetishized and written off based on the connection between design and plot relevancy (yet chiyo can appear in naruto games as you've mentioned without anyone raising an eyebrow on the topic of plot relevancy and design). Namco really needs to stop with the idea that a character is determined by her look, rather than her impact as a strong character and plot relevant character.
Thank you for adding this to the discourse, it really feels that the design plays a significant part not only in how the characters are viewed, but how are they connected to the plot as you've shown here.
Yeah...This is a big problem when it comes to playable female characters, especially when it comes to Namco. People over their 20s can still be hot. Heck, I wouldn't mind playing as a badass old woman. If we can play as men who clearly middle-aged, why not do the same with the women fighters?
Heck, when I saw that Kunimitsu, I do think it's cool we're playing as a successor like some of the other characters in the series, but when you look at their other games... Yeah, that Christmas Cake concept is a big problem.
What is the Christmas cake concept, if you don’t mind me asking.
@@emperorjoker9240 The way woman are never aging in a game, effectively a snowglobe of game design.
@@musicmodjoe2139 thanks brother
@@emperorjoker9240 it's the idea that a woman is no longer desirable after a certain age, usually mid 20s or so.
I was mad when i saw it wasn't the real kunimitsu. The one i've been waiting for years.
Guess i'll just play with og costume and pretend....
People who don't want to play as a badass older woman are cowards.
or just complete perverts actually.
All roads lead back to Sindel.
@@spyro115 yep
@@spyro115 complete perverts? But no one bats an eye at all the grown men constantly playing as little girls talking about it's their waifu?!😳🤔
You ever figure alot of people dont care if older woman characters are in the game but just wouldnt use them cause they dont fucking want to?
Well there is one out lair in Soul Calibur, Maxi stopped ageing physically because of the Soul Edge shard in his body, because he's the pretty boy character.
Isn’t that also why Ivy stopped aging as well?
@@paperluigi6132 Yeah and it actually make since too within the story.
4thSnake: *Shows Granny Chiyo*
My Brain: "What, no love for Master Genkai?"
To be fair, Genkai hasn't been in any games recently
@@Zaylovesu2 wasn't there a YYH game a few yrs back? or was it a fighting game that featured Yusuke? I remember seeing Yusuke recently.
Soooooooo
True
Genkai! The best master grandma!
Yeah, I thought Genkai was a cool female character who can still fight in her 70s and was a cool master for Yusuke. But I also thought it was weird Japanese fighters don't have older human female characters who are over 30 but Mortal Kombat has Sindel and Sonya Blade being middle aged women or older in time skips
Letting Sonya not age was the community's fault, remember when everyone complained about Sonya's face when they revealed her. So Netherrealm backed down super hard, and now she looks almost the same age as her daughter.
Great vid Snake, old lady fighters are usually the coolest characters in their respective game. The Boss from MGS3, is a good example of that.
Edit: It's The Boss, not Big Boss.
You mean The Boss, Big Boss is Naked snake
The reason why it was changed is because Sonya looked like she's fcked up on steroids, not because she looked old.
@@tonyinfinite5174 Oops, your right.
@@Xertaron. To me, she just looked like her age before the update. I mean, I felt that they could of just used the updated face for young Sonya and kept the old model for General Sonya, like they did with Johnny.
But it's already over and done with and I don't even play MK11, so I don't really even have a say in the matter anyway.
www.google.com/search?q=mk11+sonya+face+model&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=isnv&sxsrf=ALeKk02GDJ36zs0MpsoCtlmGRzoC8N8alg:1602971683410&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiq6ZjuzrzsAhUFc60KHY6AB8AQ_AUoAXoECCgQAQ&biw=412&bih=751#imgrc=0zwYM1wifMDq7M&imgdii=EbVsIKOoHofBuM
The boss really leaves an impression on one, she is one of the best and most deep elders that gaming narratives can produce.
Asuka Kazama also was wasted. In Tekken 5 it was established that she could quell Jins devil form yet they never brought back that angle since. Instead focusing on an increasingly weird rivalry between her and Lili
Amen to that. Taki’s absence from SCV was particularly infuriating.
I wanted to play as Setsuka. My day was ruined, RUINED!
Everyone's absence or changes in scv was infuriating. Why the fuck did Kilik become a male mokujin? Why aren't 75% of the cast involved in the story?
Exactly. I mean if Mitsurugi could still kick ass in his older age, who's to say Taki couldn't be doing the same thing with her demon exterminating? They're roughly the same age.
I mean most asian woman don't look old even in their 40s(speaking as an asian born, raised, and still living in asia). although I would like an older female character in tekken like an older jun would be nice.
Ming Na Wen is damn near 60 and Still looks like she could be in her mid 30s at best. She just ended her run on Agents of Shield, where she played the most aggressive and fight happy member of the team.
@@jeangentry6656 Yep it would be understandable to see the asian characters to not age visibly, but the western characters do oddly not age as well.
@@XyTeRx agreed.
@@jeangentry6656 God I have the biggest crush on Ming-Na
Asian men can also look younger. I'm almost 22 and I still have people thinking I'm 15.
“And Mitsurugi does too, despite having done nothing ever.”
This video is perfect.
Namco hasn't seen some of the older women in their 40s and 50s that I have. They still look amazing, and they aren't superpowered martial artists, so you even have that excuse going for you.
No, women those ages look so mid
Namco be like, "Women over 40 GTFO. Men over 60 can stay!"
They just know what ages like Milk and what like Wine :D
@@ZunaZurugi its a fighting game not a dating sim and Wang ages like milk he's still in
You imagine Namco making an avatar fighting game Hama would forever be stuck at her young form despite teaching katara blood bending as an old lady
@@tonyinfinite5174 Ya True but also Katara won :> and as i remember Hama drooled over how young katara is :D
@@ZunaZurugi She drooled on the factor of how powerful and talented Katara already was at her age don't make it sound weird.
(the internet already beat me to that punch)
@@ZunaZurugi yes, a 16 years old teenager is more dangerous than a 40s mid Woman
Japan: Middle and Old age women are not worth putting in games.
Milf lovers: *BOLD WORDS*
It would be so cool if in Tekken 8 Devil Kazuya is kicking Jin and Asuka's ass, left right and center, and just when he is about to kill them, old Jun jumps right in and we fight as her versus Kazuya. Hell, that could be a way to unlock her in the game.
That would be bloody awesome. And plus Tekken 8 is the perfect time to finally bring back Jun IF she's actually still alive and this isn't Harada's pointless retcon when Jun was actually originally supposed to be dead before Harada retconned that around the time Tekken Tag 2 came out. So yeah if there was any a time for Jun to come back, it' would be Tekken 8 where she steps into save her son and niece (if they actually involve Asuka in the main storyline).
I agree it's a cultural thing. What I don't understand is why they apply the age limit standard to ALL the female characters? Both Tekken and Soul Calibur have an international cast, so let the Western/European women age while the Asian/Japanese girls remain Forever Young. It's not a perfect solution, but it's something. Characters like Setsuka and Ivy could def. Be kicking a$$ into their 40s/50s.
Maybe they should call Kojima to consult. He likes older women, lol 😁
forever young the older females until they're like 60/70, then hit them with the Granny Chiyo if they want to be realistic.
Gerontophilia is not popular in Asia.
This reminds of a conversation I had with a older wonder woman cosplayer at a local convention several years ago. I remember her saying "Bruce and clark can age normally but diana never looks over 30". While she was unaware of kingdom come(even which diana barely looks to be in her 40s despite canonically being the oldest of the three), 4th snakes point still stands. There tends to be few roles/representation after a actresses or character reaches there 30s or 40s until they reach grandparent age ranges. Thankfully this is changing in most mediums in recent years.
The bigger problem is that ever since Tekken 6 the story of any side character is completely ignored. The side chapters in seven don't really give the characters enough time to shine (besides Chloe kicking Eddy.) Hell none of the DLC characters don't even get a chapter so we don't even get an explanation for Julia's change, or where Anna has been for the entirety of the story.
Jun is finally back
and she is still look like she could be Jin's twin sister and not a mother. I guess they will tell us that in the time she was missing she was in some kind of a magical coma that kept her age when she went missing
or they will pull the "woman in refrigerator" and it turn out that this is her spirit and it will give Jin and/or Kzuya a new storyline
You got a chance to see T8's story? What did you think?
Power Instinct has the monopoly of old ladies in fighting games. They have 4 granny's and a great granny.
I was going to mention Gouketsuji Ichizoku (The Gouketsuji Family AKA Power Instinct) too. Not only do that have four old women and one extremely old woman, but they are the title characters for that series!
@@rcblazer Boss characters, even. I miss Power Instinct.
Thank you for this information.
Literally, give me an old female character in Tekken and best believe I’d be learning her in a heartbeat. Females look cooler than males when they’re old (in games), imo. We really do need that diversity, because imagine an old grandma with a long Chinese dress and a cute, wrinkly face kicking Jin’s ass. SIGN ME TF UP 👏
An old woman being this badass fighter sounds fun and cool really wish that happened
@@ubermaster134 the same
That last part made me cringe.
No thanks lol
Not sure if you appreciate older women or have a strange fetish for them..........or both.
3:17 in the UK, Kasumi and Ayane’s ages were missing from the Dead or Alive 2 manual
I miss Jun Kazama so damn much. She will forever be my Main Tekken Character.
They should've bring back jun, michelle and og kunimitsu for t7.
Maybe for tekken 8 who knows (except og kunimitsu we might not see her until tag 3.... fuck you namco...)
Same brother, same. Bring back Jun!
jun, like angel and unknown deserved better writing in their future reinventions and non appearance gaps.
@@HeyMomonia Let's hope, rather than them recycling the same characters, who are shells of what they used to be (hey remember when julia was interesting, like t3-t4? Or that jun and angel were relevant or at least a source of discourse for us instead of just here's asuka guys, jun swa... we mean new character).
Same here! Jun Kazama is my #1 female character!👍🏾
2:54 Tv Tropes? It’s nice to see the website being shown in this video. It’s addicting.
Finally! I'm happy more people are discussing this issue! I've been wanting older women, mothers, Milfs! Still fighting! The predacessors have better stories and potential than the descendants!
it's kinda like the problem I have with DMC5. Dante and even Trish (who are demons) show clear signs of aging in their model / design but lady (who is a human) somehow looks even younger than she did back at DMC4! ho... how??? I'd get it if it was just a case of demons aging faster than humans but Lady just aged backwards.
3:05
Wait...DOA 1-4 takes place within a year? I feel like I should've known that since starting a retrospective.
The characters don't age. This also includes DOAX1-2.
really all that in one year? that is really make no sense to me.
4 tournaments in a year.
Yeah it makes total sense....
@@HeyMomonia Makes about as much sense as Tekken 4-6 and maybe even 7 taking place all in the span of a single year...
@@whlteshadow9570 Wait it's in the same year? I always that it was a tournament every year. Isn't jin 23 now? I know he was 19 in tekken 3.
I always had a hunch there was a pattern going on, but never actually looked into it. Oh boy, they weren't subtle. This is like the game design equivalent of divorcing your wife for a similar younger woman.
*Leonardo Dicaprio has entered the chat*
@The Grin Reaper What about all the old guys in the games?
@The Grin Reaper So it's OK to punch older men, but not older women? That sounds like a ridiculous double standard
@The Grin Reaper I don't think the occupation of pirate or outlaw/villain falls in the cathegory of "It's just a prank bro, I'm just demonstrating my martial prowess as a teacher, these evil acts are all staged."
@The Grin Reaper Your only rebute being pointing out my unnecessary meme reference that is just there for flavour merans you probably don't have an issue with the rest. As you see, "demonstrations" aren't an excuse for being criminals, and neither is "being old". And for the record, your beginning argument doesn't even make sense, female characters in fighting games often have enough skill to be more than capable of having the title of martial artist master/adept/teacher, at least in a vaccum specially after a timeskip.
I feel they're using the Christmas Cake rule. It's pretty dumb, just like it was in the joshi wrestling days.
It seems like Namco and other video game companies are unaware that Asian women age very slowly and gracefully compare to European women
Sonya's voice actually makes sense when you remember she's that old lol
Sonia Blade's 60!? Damn. How old is Johnny?
Four years older, I think.
@@The4thSnake Correct, per the MK1 comic Cage was 30 and Sonya was 26.
Johnny and Sonya looking like that at 60 makes perfect sense. Sonya's 20+ years in the military. Being an Army Vet myself, I know that she would have to keep physically fit to perform all the missions she has.
Johnny's case has three factors. First, his bloodline was blessed by the gods according to Fujin. Second, he's an actor. Hollywood would expect him to have certain physical standards in order to book jobs, whether worked for or "bought". Third, he's military contractor. See above for Sonya.
I think Sonya is 50 yeard old look at wikipedia
@@Daengo223 She was 26 in MK1. Around 30 years have passed by MK11. She's pushing 60.
A real shame. Who doesn't want to think Chun-li will still be kicking ass when she's an old lady?!
I can't remember what brought this up on Eventhubs but because of it I was lucky enough to learn of a series called Power Instinct which as a few old lady fighters in it. and they are actually pretty interesting. Would be great if some artists could do some fanart for them.
As much as I dislike what they did to Sindel recently, I still really like her character model in the current game.
Chun-Li came back on Third Strike, she appear to be in her early or mid 30s.
2:13 Oh the reason Ivy doesn't age IS given. Two reasons as a matter of fact.
Hint: They're on her chest.
Yeah that's one of them, the more shallower reason anyway but the other one was that it was because her blood was tainted by Soul Edge.
@@decadentgamer3108 they use that reason to justify the other one, so which one is shallow is debatable.
@@MetaSynForYourSoul Yeah I suppose you have a poinr
If I can go on a tangent for a bit..... I HATE what Namco did to Julia and Michelle Chang.
With the whole Mishima Zaibatsu/environmental message with saving the rainforest plot in stories, I'll accept but then Michelle gets dropped (Tekken Wiki says she became a drifter/wanderer which I think is terrible) and later in TTT2, Julia becomes JayCee while Michelle becomes MayCee. It is non-canon... well half of it is. What angers me is that in her story, it is said that Julia as JayCee got the John Cena/Roman Reigns treatment where she became so much of a babyface (good guy), it forced her to turn heel (villain) due to fan outcry and subsequently retire the JayCee character, stop wrestling altogether and then all-of-a-sudden return to her environmentalist plot which she originally had... but now she's a damn Twitch thot.
Fuck you, Namco! Julia and Michelle deserve better than to be thrown away for the sake of "keeping up with the times" by turning Julia into Pokimane and making Michelle do absolutely nothing. It is dumb and Tekken 7 better fix them. Those two deserve better.
I didn't know about the Christmas cake thing in Japan at all... That probably explains why my fave character in one of my fave shows (Shizuka Hiratsuka) always complains that she'll never get married even though she's young at 25-30
It's a pretty out there concept that you wouldn't really know unless you got really into tropes in media. I remember learning about the "Christmas Cake" trope when I was around 17 (I'm 29 now lol). I was pretty shocked at the time but when I thought about all the fighting games I played and how old the female characters were, it made so much sense.
Same withi Mei Terumi from Naruto
Tbh I never understood why most fighting games (especially Japanese) were so scared of having older women and if they are old, they're physically in their 20s still while their male counterparts still age.
It's that Christmas Cake trope. It has always bothered me that older women are not considered attractive but also the fact a lot of men and women are into MILFs/GILFs/cougars.
Especially since Japanese women tend to look much younger even if their in their 40s-60s
Julia didn’t drop saving the rain forest. She started streaming to spread awareness about the rainforest lol
Story, in my fighting games? Perish the thought, you heathen.
*"Having a Story (Mode) in Fighting Games"* is better than having *"A No Story (Mode) in Fighting Games."*
Jun's back in Tekken 8 and low and behold, she looks like she hasn't aged a day past 30, even though shes like canonically 50 or something. Japan's obsession with female youth in video games really is a joke.
I'm still mad about kunimitsu. I waited for kunimitsu to come back for years just to see that it's actually her daughter which i don't give a flying fuck about.
And i agree just give us jun and michelle back they were far more interesting than all the new characters we got in tekken 7.
And i don't even care if they look young tbh just look at lee he's almost 50 i think and still looks young, same with kazuya behind all the scars he doesn't look 50.
I just want to see the ogs because they're more interesting characters that's it.
Also how can you replace a badass blind kunoichi with red hair with speed o' sound sonic's daughter?
I agree, I'm so frustrated from all the years of waiting on my foxy kunoichi, just for her to be replaced with her daughter....😒 Japan needs to toss that "Christmas Cake" analogy out, because it's sexist and insulting to women!
Of all the excuses for dismissing old women characters in tekken, Kunimitsu definitely does not.
Remembering that she is a traitor thief ninja that was obsessed with Yoshimitsu's sword and Michelle's medallion (and didn't get either), and I don't think she easily would give up these items or ways of life that as implies in her daughter's biography.
There was always the possibility that Ogre killed her but with the announcement of her successor and confirmation that the original did not die, only makes things sadder for her character
@@vruuumvruumm1355 Completely agree with you bro.
I will never understand this choice. To me it was a really big mistake to do that. The saddest part is that not a lot of people seem to care from what i saw....
@@sakura-kai- Yeah i know sis, guess i have to learn to not like female characters in japanese games because they might get replaced for no reason.... Please never replace juri and tira i would get even more salty if that happens.
@@HeyMomonia Yep bro
Kunimitsu was one of the most requested character in the franchise to bring back, but bringing a kawaii daughter in place of the original was disappointing.
I even understand Michelle Chang moving away from fighting for the safety of the family, but Kunimitsu is a criminal who came from a ninja clan, most likely she would never have a peaceful life as a family mother due to the conflicts and enemies she created.
(Also i hope that Kunimitsu II dont have rivarly with Julia Chang).
In the Tekken world, the women average life expectancy is around 25
Only traditional fighting game I've played where you can play as an old woman was Power Instinct, and there were two who were twins.
Of course they don't need to be 60+, we just wanna see 35-55 year old women who are also strong fighters. Not to mention if they really like using sex appeal, there are a ton of people who are more into older, mature women. I'm surprised they haven't thought about that yet.
Power Instinct actually had about 5 grannies in its roster over the course of the series.
@@wakkaseta8351 Did they? I only remember the twins. Regardless, more points for them then lol
It's a longstanding issue with most female characters in japanese media. Once you hit 40 you stop aging to appear "hot enough" in media. It's sad because middle aged characters can still be nice looking if that's the rationale, but more importnatly it robs us of seeing all of our favorite female characters in sequels.
Let's be honest it's the same for male characters. Kazuya without the scars still looks young and lee looks somehow younger than lars.
I've always loved boss/monster characters. Yet as much as I am a fan of Cervantes, I am so frustrated they do absolutely nothing with him. He was technically the Goro of Soul Blade and yet, ever since Soul Calibur, has no story relevance or motivation whatsoever.
My problem with bringing Jun back is that its basically an asspull at this point. It makes no sense why she would get attacked by Ogre and then simply 'disappear' for years and years, leaving her son motherless. Then just come back out of nowhere like SF4 Gouken who was obviously dead and say, "Ah, I'm fine"!
Would Western audiences compliants even reach these guys? I guess any boycott big enough will get some attention but some companies are less willing to listen to foreigners then others.
3:36 The oldest female character in the Street Fighter series is actually Rose, followed by Crimson Viper. Chunli is only the third oldest, followed by Juri. Also towards the the you forgot to mention the Power Instinct series (5 games total) which features two kickass grannies as the series protagonists, in addition to their European cousins and an even older centennial mother.
If I ever make a fighting game, I'll make granny that is actually 7 years old a la Benjamin Burton for the kicks.
I hated the fact we never got adult Talim
There are enough adult female character in that game already. Having a 1-2 lolis is good for diversity sake.
@@oraora8214 I mainly meant this twords SCV (felt like a wasted opportunity with the time skip)
Which was bullshit because Talim would've only been in her late 20s, possibly early 30s and I think a lot of us were wanting to see an older, wiser, and more confident adult Talim. Also so many awesome fan interpretations were drawn as well lol.
@@oraora8214 She wouldn't have been a "loli" in SCV, she would've been a grown ass woman lol.
@@decadentgamer3108 In that case it should have been loli daughter of Talim.
I'm so glad that more people are talking about this issue. I can say that for myself, I remember being confused and bothered by this even before I got on the internet and would usually talk about this kinda stuff with my brother who shared a similar opinion to myself. Of course we were kids at the time so we didn't understand the true reason about why the female characters in our favorite fighting games weren't aging like their male counterparts but years later and we eventually caught on mainly when Soul Calibur 5 came out and I just had enough lol. I remember being very disappointed with how they handled the female cast in the game. Like okay the only character I gave a plausible pass to whom would be most likely to retire was Xianghua who seemed like the character who would settle down and raise a family and I could see Setsuka retiring and living out a peaceful life as well but there was absolutely no excuse to cut out Taki, Seong-Mina, and especially Talim who would've only been in her late 20s, early 30s and I think it's safe to say a lot of us Soul Calibur fans were wanting to see what a grown up Talim would look like.
I'm just saying that if Mitsurugi and Maxi can still be kicking ass in their 40s, there's absolutely no reason why Taki and Seong-Mina could do the same. Same with Sophitia who was especially done dirty because not only was she axed from the game in the 17 year jump, she was also killed off! I swear it's like they took the female cast out back and pulled an old yeller on them and it's just sad.
And same with Tekken and how it treats it's own female characters by putting the same age limit threshold on them. And okay I am gay but still, I don't understand why so many people think that older women can't be pretty. Not that their looks should define the character because like you said, it should be enough that these female fighters can still kick ass with their weapons (or fighting styles in games like Tekken) but still, older women can be pretty just like older men can be handsome. I've just always been miffed with how these Japanese games treat the female characters. I didn't even that about Samurai Warriors and Dynasty Warriors (I usually only played the Empires games so I never knew much about the mainline games from a lore/plot perspective), that was just mindblowing lol.
All in all, I could go on and on about this topic and how BS it is. I agree with you about Mortal Kombat. As bad as the story can get at times, at least the series isn't afraid to have diverse female characters like older women like Sindel and an aging Sonya or monster designs like Dvorah and Sheeva. And while Tekken & Soul Calibur will always have special places inside me, I'd just like to see them get over this hurdle and treat the female characters with more respect and let them be like their male counterparts where they can age as well.
I guess it's why Jill Valentine never returned in any new RE entries, as she is now over 40. I mean seriously, why can't women age? There are a lot of 40-year-old women who are beautiful, even more than 20 ones, so why can't we have athletic and beautiful milfs?
Replying because they brought her back in Death Island, only to pull that shit about how the viruses stopped/slowed her aging, lol. Wouldn't be surprised if Claire or Rebecca never return past that film, or if they do, they'll have a similar excuse.
I love and agree with the video but I have one gripe. Julia's mission as a scientist and as a researcher to save the rainforest never ended. She just turned to streaming to help raise more money. Also she's not a "twitch thot", she is a streamer. That's it. A woman that chooses to stream.
Western devs get one thing right and a millions things wrong. Seems like Japanese devs aren’t much different. The characters have no personality and are just sexy. The mk women have had most of their sex appeal removed. ITS ABOUT BALANCE.
So I guess sjw was right and we must boycott Japanese culture heh, typical American
@@SheanWalsh46 it like people can't allow to have sexy characters with no age , iam I right?,
In Virtua Fighter Vanessa was also toned down to be more feminine and less muscular because they thought nobody wants to play as a muscular female
That's really ridiculous. Who would not mind playing a muscular woman in a fighting game that is not just slim or thick? Besides, muscular women are sexy too.
The explanation for Ivy not aging is in the big artwork/concept art book called Soul Calibur New Legends of Project soul where in the fight at the end of SC4, she uses her sword Valentine to "kill" Cervantes by absorbing all the souls he stole from people he killed which then got transfered to Ivy and made her immortal, while seemingly making Cervantes alive again. I dunno how that works but that's their explanation.
Personally, I love women in video games. I’ve never once thought to myself “we need an older woman on the cast!” (Partially because we already do)
I think aging for men and women is just looked at differently. Typically aging men are praised. While aging women are usually praised for looking young.
So in a world of video games I don’t think they wanted to open that can of worms. Art really reflects the world we live in! So if we want change in games we need to see if in the real world first.
I swear if they bring back Jun and she doesn't look noticeably older, or they keep her de-aged due to shenanigans, then I will commit an act.
I mean im pretty sure customization will make her look younger but story yes shell most likely look middle aged
They'll most likely keep her young looking because of the whole spirit power thing.
@@lukejones7164 I was just about to say the same thing. It’s heavily implied that there’s some supernatural shit going on with her if she still alive.
I don't expect it anytime soon. Harada seems to be actively trying to make us forget about her at all.
Well she is asian and 40 something year old asians often tend to look from mid 20's to 30, so don't expect grey hair and visible wrinkles. Jun would look exactly as she did in Tekken Tag 2, all they need to do is give her the demeanor and style of an older woman.
Can we get more tekken wasted plotential. Like your vids mate.
I seriously can't recall a single old lady character in any fighting game franchise sans anime fighters.
Well, there is Sindel, who is older even by Edenian standards, but I'm going to assume you mean Japanese fighting games.
There are a few in a game called Power Instinct. Still. Developed in Japan so I don't know if you want to call that an anime fighter or not.
@@AgentownshipRebelion I meant a fighter based off anime. But what's funny is that one of the old women from that game, Otane I think, has a special where she turns into a young, 20-25 y.o.
@@SaltyCalhoun
Several of the characters in Power Instinct can turn into their younger selves (or a more handsome form in Prince's case), but they'll still revert to their true forms with the right trigger.
Namco: no one wants to see a woman over 40
Me: Oh contrare, my Japanese friends.
Kasumi Mishima would have been 10x more interesting if she was like this angry 70+ crime lord whose been in hiding manipulating things in the background ever since Heihachi 'killed her' only returning in Tekken 7 to exact her revenge. I mean give her ties to G-Corporation, reveal that her devil gene was the cause of all this....
Tekken 7's story was such a garbage fire anyway...
T7 is garbage in all aspects, not just the story...
@@Leadblast honestly we were spoilt by Tag 2
thanks for the video, love your stuff
You know you fucked as a fighting game when a Naruto game does a better job with it's aging system
The original Kings are dead.
King from T1-2 was killed by Ancient Ogre.
Armor King was killed by Marduk prior to T4.
Death didn't stop Kazuya.
@@jeangentry6656 They were replaced by an apprentice (King) and younger brother (Armor King). You can just resurrect every character how Kazuya was.
It would cheapen death in the narrative like Dragon Ball Z lol.
Only Mishimas get to come back from the dead.
@@KeithOwnsEveryone18 it's a videogame. Death is already cheap.
Tbh, while I ain't oppossed to having older versions of the characters who most likely are past the Christmas Cake Threshold, I think part of it is the whole "repetition" thing of having multiple versions of the same cast, but if that was the case, they could have just made the successors have their own unique movesets and styles. Think the closest I can see being used as an example is Adon and Sagat from Street Fighter 4: both being Muay Thai fighters, but where Sagat focuses on strength and pressure, Adon is more agile and smaller, making him focus on speed and closeups. They could probably have done something similar with the ladies seeing say an older Taki and Natsu feeling somewhat different from each other, yet similar, even if say Taki would not be as agile as she used to - which I doubt if we consider her character would not let her falter in her training even with age.
Other than that, I think part of the reasoning for some of the aging could be the curse in their blood - like I think Amy is involved with Raphael, who is a vampire or succumbing to vampirism, so most likely it's similar to her, kind of like Ivy's relationship with Cervantes, despite she still coming off as the Sindel of the game series (and I don't mean in a bad way). Odd explination, but also, probably a reason how the creators can get a way to remove and add characters into new entries.
Easy fix for this. DONT SKIP STORY 20 YEARS IN THE FUTURE !!! If you don't want the younger characters to age, don;t do extreme time skips. I don't like my fav character to be suddenly 50 years old or day mysteriously off screen from unknown reasons.
In the case of Soul Calibur 5 The main cast from SC1 and 2 pretty much all disappear and got replaced by copies that NO ONE liked. If i remember, the story of SC 2 - 3 - 4 all took place within a few months. It possible to make a story without having 20 years time skips. I just hate time skips in games/shows with multiple characters cuz most of the time you never know what happened to your favorite characters.
I think it's simple case of marketing, unlike their male counterparts, female characters are usually sold based on either their attractive faces or bodies respectably, Usually male characters have more option other then beauty like masculinity, in fiction no matter how much a male character ages, they still can retain their masculine build which retains the character apeal
Same can't be said for females who for most part soul apeal are their attractive features, Age does overall decrease that with time passing, it becomes harder to market figures and promotional art without having attractive woman,
and no this not say masculine female characters can't be attractive *(Hell that's essentially Majority of Street fighter females if they're not below 18)* but even character like chun li and Rainbow mika are still within reasonable age, if you would do huge timeskip SF might resort them into retirement, it's the reason why the timeline went backward after Third strike
It's quite funny that SNK does have alot of middle aged female characters
How about the milfs though? I can maybe understand for a female in her seventies but in her forties? Thirties? They really can't market that?
@@HeyMomonia They could but it's not as super common in fighting games as teenagers or young adults
SNK is filled with middle aged milfs, Nina and kasumi from tekken are somewhat milfs
@@mistergremm735 Middle aged female characters? Name them
I think this just speaks to the nature of humans as mammalian animals. Men are desired for their strenght and provision wich they usually achieve in older age. Women are desired for their youth and ability to procreate wich subsides with age. If the biological dynamic was different I couls easily see this video being about men cast aside.
It's unfortunate what that does in regards to certain aspects like the story. You could have sugar mommies running around the battlefield. Their can be an appeal to older women. It's a bit dumb that it takes over such precedence but it's not unexpected. Human nature can't be supressed.
@Ice I don't mean that it would appeal to older women but that some folks have interest in them. Milfs. I was talking about milfs.
@@Smoofyful It doesn't even have to be "milfs". It can just be the the thrill of playing a bad ass older woman .Like I'm reminded of the character Eva from Metal Gear. Never played those games in my life but I remember learning about this character and I thought it was cool how you got to see her age with the games to when she became a bad ass woman in her 50s.
@@decadentgamer3108 Eva isn't much of a badass compared to the original. The original Boss had that dangerous maternal vibe. Eva in older age felt like pastiche.
Generally it's understandable that people don't want older women. Older women usually don't rock or not in a direct physical way that would suit a game. It's not because of malice that the subject isn't explored more often, it's simply because of reality.
@@Smoofyful The thing I'm trying to convey is that at least to me, it was cool to see this character AGE and actually be allowed to look it.
> Older women usually don't rock or not in a direct physical way that would suit a game. It's not because of malice that the subject isn't explored more often, it's simply because of reality.
Wholeheartedlt disagree. You can't really say it wouldn't work since it's something that's hardly if ever done.
I saw Cassandra and clicked fast lol. Didn't even read the title on the notification.
I mean it wouldn't be too crazy to at least have their Older Forms in Story mode and as a Reward for Clearing Hard Mode 'Guess What She's Back in Classic Prime Form!'
Would we also be able to get the young classic forms of the male characters? lol
The reason why Ivy and her dad doesn't age is explained in SC6. You learn that she is alchemist so I'm guessing she found the secret to immortality and all that jazz OR she ends up learning that she is the daughter of the cursed 6 Soul edge, so her connection to the supposed sword of salvation . Now Yes 5 was the more fun but most shittiest and piss poor stories in the SC series so I'm hoping you can do a video where you rewrite that with the current characters or previous ones.
Tbf, SCV was HELLA rushed. The devs only had about a year to make it. If you wanna learn more, look up Matt McMuscles’s Wha Happun video on that game.
Here’s the Reason why IVy doesn’t age as quickly.
It’s the fact that from Very day she was born, was/is connected to Soul Edge. The Dark Sword was in possession of Cervantes and basically (Forcibly) made her as a backup vessel incase it could not find a proper body to take.
In SoulCalibur 1 (and 6), Nightmares comes to her, recruiting her so she could further be by his side, while also giving her some of Soul Edge’s astral energies to Craft the Valentine with!
And from there on, it’s assumed the more she matures, the more her body is able to adapt to the Astral energies that make Soul Edge (and potentially what keeps her young). Thankfully Ivy was smart enough to see what this meant, and yes, she has gone through the trouble of Avoiding Soul Edge’s direct influence. She does her damnest to stay true to herself, which is why her Violent color Scheme fits with her character, being a child born from Dark beginnings, but she continues to fight against it not only for her own sake, but to also see the Dark influence of Soul Edge destroyed.
I'm glad you made this video. I completely agree and I don't even play most of the games!
Astroth from Soul Calibur (I Shit you not) is the actual Youngest Fighter in the series, Don't believe me go check out his Lore/Bio, After all these years we've been playing and fighting against a Character that has the same Age as a freaking Toddler.
LMAO 😂
Ugh. The stupidity of it all. So women are allegedly objectified and have to be covered up, but at the same time they won't give women over 40 spot in a fighting game because "they're not attracitve enough".
My brain hurts.
I feel slightly attacked due to your misgivings at Mitsurugi as he is one of my mains in Soulcalibur. However, I do agree on what you said about the wasted potential of the female fighters in the Namco fighting games. I really want to see Jun return, hopefully as a major character for Tekken 8 and they did Michelle dirty.
Finally! This was one of those issues that Needs to be addressed!
6:40
Just a question, but how can something be sexist if the characters aren't even real people?
Not trying to attack you or be a hater, i'm actually just genuinely curious
Because even fictional characters need to show up aging for a moving plot (in Tekken's case, 20+years have passed). The plot moves, and males only got to age. Japan and their habit of not even touching Christmas cakes...
Then there's Street Fighter giving zero fucks about age.
Great topic! I totally agree.
It was so disappointing not having Seong Mi-na in SC V, even if she was a little less than double her age, lol.
Not necessarily related to the subject of "age," but I think the females are, generally, largely underutilized in the narrative. They do big and important things, particularly in Soul Calibur over Tekken, but it's usually just come and done. They generally don't feel like a key protagonist or antagonist. By that I mean through perspective and how they're written. A great example is, think of the perspective we have through Sophitia and Pyrrha, and you can include Cassandra as well if you like, then think of the perspective we have through Patroklos. It's much easier to put ourselves in his shoes. Not because he's more relatable, but because of how it's written and framed.
Although they're on posters and covers for the games, and clearly have depth to them, they never know how to spotlight them or give them focal roles in the story. Still more specifically referring to Soul Calibur, we'll know what they want and what they bring to the table, but we won't quite see it flesh out as fluently as a Mitsurugi or a Kilik or even a Yun-seong. They don't quite put you "behind the eyes" of the females as well as they do the "standard" males. Tira is almost an exception, because she was used pretty frequently and pivotly in Soul Calibur's plot. But, she's *almost* an exception, considering she's mostly a disposable asset for Knightmare/Soul Edge, and she never quite reaches "full-form."
Tbf, the same arguments could be applied to most non-"essential" characters in Namco fighting games. Especially Tekken. Again, not including the subject of age, which is a topic and issue particular to the females. But, most of the side characters (in relevance to story) have been going nowhere, and at the speed of a snail. Be it rivalries, vendettas, interpersonal quests; nothing really happens for them until the next game where we then find out that King and Marduk are actually really good friends now! And, he's friends with him now, and she's friends with her, and those guys don't really associate with each other anymore although they're still on good terms. o_O
But their goals, gains, and accomplishments rarely change or progress. Even if they ever at least manage to age, they are in their own perpetual Groundhog days.
DoA's kind of like that, too, to much, much less extent
The harsh truth is just that sex sells. You may argue all you want about it, but in the end the more appealing a character is, the more draw they have towards people playing them. This is what led DOA to create the Xtreme Volleyball series, just to outright sell the sex appeal.
I don't agree with shit story to justify erasing out older character, but that's just how it is. I'd even admit that I'm part of this problem as well, as I do pick characters based on appearance, especially if it's a game that I'm not familiar with. This is why NieR Automata could reach that hype that the previous NieR didn't get.
Sure, it doesn't really matter since if the game is good, the characters could be stick figure and it wouldn't change much, but Japanese, or Asian developers in general just saw the market for sex appeal, while the western developers is ever so scared of the feminism movement to do the same. To be fair tho, Japanese developer caters to both side, providing all kinds of hunks and twinks for those who enjoys em.
It is called being human. We all like to look at appealing things. Especially in people.
Another harsh issue he ignores, is that the devs themselves don't really care about story in a fighting game as much as he does.
@@irispaiva Oh I'm with him on this issue. Developer should either put effort in, or don't bother. I'd rather developer put in no story mode at all, or just the usual camp non-canon arcade mode, than putting shite story that muddles up the whole narrative (looking at you SCV)
I don't play fighting games online much, so the offline offerings is what I judge a fighting game worth to myself. SCVI did wonderfully in this regard, and I always love the T6 arcade and side mode. T7 though, while it has strong narrative, there's just not a lot of it.
Implying a woman can't have sex appeal after 40?
@@twistednightmare1363 does that sex appeal attracts the mainstream market or does it attract the niche?
I have been wondering about those creative decisions. MK was a sweet surprise to let their characters age.
Oh btw KOF is another odd one with the age narrative. XIV was it's technical reboot.. so yeah
**Subzero clip intensifies**
Such wasted potential
Ivy stopped aging because she got most of her soul absorbed by Cervantes at some point after SCIV. Then, she created an artificial soul on her own, thanks to her alchemy skills. The artificial soul, if I am not mistaken, is the cause of her not aging anymore. It's not explained if this artificial soul needs to be 'renewed' or if just one was enough.
Anyway... Ivy is a character with wasted plotential. But in her case i feel it's because they felt the need to oversexualize her to make her interesting, but it wasn't needed at all. She is easily one of of the smartest characters on the game, have a physical connection with Soul Edge, created her own living sword.
They could have done so much with her... Explore the fact she was a countess of the British Crown and all the good connections this could give her for her journey. But instead they just... 'Hey nerds, look at this busty dominatrix, lol' meh
If you ever feel like, please do a video about my precious girl. She deserves justice.
Yeah, this whole "axe the women once they hit 40" thing is pretty ridiculous. These are all well loved characters just booted because Namco has an issue with older women or something. I wanted to play Cassandra in SCV because I like her and don't care if she's older, not some unlikeable little shit that kinda has her moves. And you better believe people would still be lining up to let Ivy step on them till the end of time. These women are awesome characters, it's not gonna kill anyone to let them still kick ass well into their golden years, in fact, I can assure you people would welcome that
It really is a shame when Netherrealm manages to do something better. I mean, they can't do anything right anymore, so if they're doing something better than you, it's time for some serious self reflection
Ivy has Soul Edge "blood" running through her veins...apparently.
If I was making a fighting game that involves characters aging, I would either :
A. Not make them age at all. (Because why? Do I have to?)
B. Remove the older characters _regardless_ of gender. (It's only fair) or
C. They can age but still make them. Once again, regardless of gender. There are older men and women that still look attractive or don't look their age. I've been thinking about like having a fighting game with my ocs plus their parents aa dlc characters. But that's just me.
I do hope that you will have a discourse on the problems in female game design and marketing, as you've used the t2 art of michelle, jun and nina which was released back in 95. I think it feeds into the way game design and marketing of it perceives and creates women in game design. It also feeds into the various points which you've made in this video.
What exactly do you mean? Are you saying you didn't like the Tekken 2 designs?
Apparently the magic Ivy put into her sword is what stopped her from aging physically.
Ironically when you think about it Ivy, Christie and Twindel are arguably the most sexualized women in their respective fighters and they all have white hair, a trait of older women.
Basically. Christie is the closest to a cougar you'll get naturally and she's like 27.
Interestingly, they all have white hair
@@Saltedroastedcaramel Id say Twindel is closer to being a cougar being she’s at least thousands of years old tho we technically don’t know how much older she is physically than Kitana her daughter
@@galaxy-ninja-omega2394 Yes that does make sense, but I'm going by a more normal way. Twindel is the oldest between her, Ivy and Christie, but she's not a human. Ivy isn't normal either because her physical age is stalled. Christie is in her late twenties, but she's not over 10,000 years old from the start like Sin/Twindel nor has had her physical age alter yet like Ivy.
I was going to mention the edenians such as kitana, jade and Mileena but then I remembered that their whole race is based around not aging after past their prime and there is no double standard between how the men and women of the race look no matter the game
If you want the most weird example, look at Senran Kagura and the Jasmine character. She’s suppose to be Asuka’s grandmother and in some games you can fight the older version who can promptly kick your ass. Problem is you can’t play as her because she can transform into a woman in her younger years which is very strange
Actually, you can play Jasmine as both her older and younger self in Estival Versus.
Omg I've never realized that. You're so right! Thanks for this very interesting video.
Namco embodies the worse trope: Men Grow Old, Women Get Replaced.
Jun never came back because she wasn't popular enough from Tag 2 to justify a return to Tekken 7. (She wasn't popular back in Tekken 2 and only got in Tag 2 due to fan request.)
It's pretty much a double standard since this almost never applies to males because the women will either retire or be killed off.
While I agree this is an aggravating issue for multiple reasons, I am not entirely sure that Jun is an example of it or at least that Jun's would-be over-40 age is the key thing preventing her from being readded. Jun coming back in the main games has the main massive obstacle of the fact that she singlehandedly would effortlessly shut down the main soap opera conflict of the series since she is the sole person both Kazuya and Jin genuinely care about & would listen to even before her being able to tell the Devil Gene it needs a time-out for being naughty.
So basically if they did bring Jun back at this point, they would likely be forced just to immediately kill her off since they kind of wrote themselves into corner there, a corner that only got more entrenched now that Heihachi is finally actually dead. Unfortunately the only thing that Namco finds less interesting than older women is a _Tekken_ story that doesn't revolve around the Mishima-Devil Gene melodrama. So at present Jun is pretty much doomed to either never come back or to come back & just immediately get killed off on-screen.
I agree with everything else though, especially about Michelle & Julia and especially with how wasted Asuka and Wang have been to the central conflict of the series. Then again, I guess Wang has lived to 105 for a reason (that is apparently the fact that he isn't a woman).
If that's the reason why Jun is missing, then that explains why Asuka isn't doing anything for the plot herself
@@Saltedroastedcaramel Pretty much. It seems like they basically made her solely to satisfy people who missed Jun's playstyle since Jun couldn't be brought back without invalidating the current plot. Similarly, Asuka seems related to Jun solely to explain why she has that fighting style too.
That would be fine...if Asuka got to do anything beyond get her ass kicked and have this weird rivalry (and ship tease) with Lili. The most galling thing is that not only does Asuka not matter for any of the Mishima drama, but she doesn't even matter for *her* own storyline. As this channel has also pointed, Asuka still has yet even fight Feng, much less defeat him for violently hospitalizing her father. I am unsure if the two have even met or been in the same room yet. That's absurd.
I am not even that invested in _Tekken_ (anymore) and yet the more I learn about Asuka, the more obviously wasted she seems. It's especially annoying since she didn't even need to related to Jun by blood, which would have skipped the "problem" of being to negate the current melodrama suppressing the Devil Gene. As it is, outside of being used to hint that Lili is bisexual, the series would have been better off if it had just made a canonical Mokujin character that stood in for Jun. What a shame.
@@MusicoftheDamned I feel sorry for Tekken fans. I'm only an outsider that peeks in every once in a while not really caring for the plot atm.
Honesty, after Tekken 4, I feel like nearly every character could have an episode of Wasted Plotential about them. After 5, *_every_* character needs one.
(Could you tell I've lost my love for the Tekken series? I don't care what anyone says, 4 had the best story telling of any game in the franchise).