Sean seems so much more alive when he talks about Starcraft. The passion SEEPS out of his every pore. It's so fucking inspiring, jesus. Sean, if you're reading this: I CANNOT WAIT to watch your stream/videos on Brood War HD.
IIRC he said that Funday Mondays were way too much work for just him or even a few people to do for a single daily, since he had to go through hundreds of replays a week.
Wow. This might be one of the most important Starcraft videos ever made. No joke, this makes me want to go back and play now, because I certainly held onto that wrong mindset that he laid out here. Especially appreciated the bit about pros having things go wrong too - my assumption and expectation was definitely in that camp of "they're beyond it so they're playing a strategy game". 10/10 transition to Hearthstone at the end too
No, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but the sad truth is that he's just a butthurt player that took years to get good at annoying, clunky, controls and has gotten diluted enough to think they add something, just like all the other players of that era. Instead of thinking of it from the player perspective, think of it as the spectator. Watch games of Starcraft and Starcraft 2. Then ask yourself, is Starcraft more fun to watch because of all the clunky controls? Can you really tell the difference? I can't, but I sure can tell when football players are out of shape in a game. I mean, you can notice a player's skill if you watch from their point of view, which is not really fun to watch, but in the spectator mode? It doesn't really matter.
+tomaO2 Who cares if spectators can't tell the difference? I don't see how that's relevant to any of the actual points Day9 brought up. But speaking of spectators... how well have recent RTS games done in e-sports? Not so great. Maybe they could learn something from Brood War, and not dumb down mechanics to where it becomes glorified rock-paper-scissors, as Day9 put it.
How would you not notice it? This isn't "his APM is a little slow", this is "they got distracted at the wrong moment and misrallied their dragoons to a totally out of position location" or "they weren't paying attention to their minimap and lost all their workers at their 5th to a DT drop" or other obvious mistakes. While the annoying, clunky controls are irritating from a playing-the-game perspective, having a (even unintentionally) unobtainably high skill cap means mistakes are made, which makes for more interesting games because people have deal with their own massive mistakes on the fly. While finals are memorable, some of the more ridiculously entertaining games in SC2 come from the group stages or even Code A where two equally skilled but not skill capped players go head to head. If you have someone who has hit the skill cap, it results in games where either they play perfectly against someone who's not at the skill cap and it's a one-sided steamroll, or the game just goes in a perpetual back-and-forth of whatever the current meta is, shaving off units/workers until one person misclicks one unit during one battle and a nearly-invisible slipup is what cascades into a gg. I won't deny that Brood War's *method* of having an unobtainable skill cap is via a clunky, annoying method of interacting with the game, but I also think that if you want your RTS to remain interesting to spectators at higher levels, forcing players into situations where they're essentially forced to prioritize what kind of mistakes they're going to allow to happen, instead of allowing a sufficiently high APM player to turn it into a turn-based strategy, is a good way of doing it.
"Well Hell..... ITS ABOUT TIME!" Started watching DayJ years and years ago, and while I have stuck with him through HS transition and other random games (Im actually up-to-date on this ((how sad am I LOL)) I have to say none of them have ever been as engaging, interesting or exciting to me as his Starcraft content. I understand ultimately this is a job and hes going to do what is generally considered more popular for viewership and numbers so this "Remastered" coming out and getting a lot of hype might be the greatest thing to hit the internet in the last decade. I've played broodwar since it came out, even though I was only like 7 when it dropped, and I'll never be a pro by any means - but every single game feels different. Its the only game where I play against myself and there is just another player there trying to inconvenience me the entire time which is unmatched by any other game. I know a lot of Day9's Day1's will be super pleased to see this. Thumbs up Sean P. - The guy who rocked your world in your star strikers impromptu videos with love, Mega
But seriously, How in the HELL does Day9 only have 525K subs? Dude's one of the most entertaining web personalities and does some of the best gaming content (both serious and not serious ones) AND he is a former pro player. Yet in the age where 1M subs are everywhere, Day9 still stuck on 500K
Man I miss this StarCraft Day9. I hardly play the game but always loved watching pro games and Day9's high level analysis. He is unmatched when it comes to passionately explaining how this video game has so much depth and the pros playing it have so much knowledge and expertise.
I think you pointed out something great.A game can only be so much as its community. That being said there is also the solo component. But in terms of social aspects,talking about the game,letting others know,gettingnew fans, convincing lazy people, a good socializing fan is making it all. Day9 adds in that dedicated knowledge enthusiasm combined with a whole lot of well meant humor And I laughed alot! which you can appreciate,it doesn't always matter that it's not a pro comedian which very few people are tbh. Being happy and confident is doing already half the story/joke.
Your argument about RTS games being strategy secondarily and about speed and reflexes moreso is the exact argument I make about Fighting Games, just in reverse. People think that those games are mainly about physical skill and twitch reflexes, and while they are somewhat, they're even more about knowledge, tactics, and decision-making. So, people who think they'll like one of these genres based on the surface impressions may actually prefer the other.
@@gabrielgarcia1641 this 100%. For most fighting games yeah execution isn't as important but for SSBM you can destroy an opponent without even thinking if you have the knowledge and execution aspects down and they don't.
Ever since Starcraft remastered was announced I have heard so many opinions from people that are (or have been) big in the Stacraft 2 (now) scene. Like guys from LifeisaGlitch, TotalBiscuit and such... They all have their opinions but they all agree on the fact that Starcraft 1 and Broodwar was the best RTS of all times. And they do even explain on the fact that Stacraft is such a deep game and has such potential. And most even go on to deffend the original Broodwar to whatever potential game Starcraft remastered might be. However, this is the first time, the first "rant" I've seen where someone actually explains THAT depth. Where someone takes the time to explain me or us (people who came only after SC2 came about) what this "legendary" game was all about. I mean, I've heard about the mechanics of SC1 players, about the cluncky unit control or about and such stuff. But I have never considered it to be considered a part of the game. As someone who never played that game, I would think of it as clunkiness of an old school game that would need to be improved in order to remaster that game. Same way doing for instance a remaster on Metal Gear Solid 1 would be nice if it had better controls than the original (that at the time were ok but now we can see they are kinda annoying). But that's just it. This video exlpains, in such a great fashion, why for this case, for Stacraft, or Starcraft remastered, those things should not be changed, and what was the actual realization this game created with its clunkiness and all. I am so glad I never unsubbed from this channel even though D9 stopped doing SC2 content alltogether. Hope this game (sc remastered) gets to be as great as the original and we get to have Day9 relive and showcase the love for this game that is so legendary. And who knows? Time to restart that Day9 daily show maybe? I can dream.... Thanks D9! You are awsome!
From what I heard, the remaster is purely graphical and some quality of life additions multiplayer, like matchmaking and such. Everything else about the game will be so unchanged that you could even watch old replays on the remastered client.
In "depth" explanation of BroodWar "depth". It is hard to control. The harder to control it is, the more "depth" it has, right? So. If you control SC with only one hand, the SC gets two time as deep. If you break your fingers before playing, it ts 5 times as deep. Do you know when SC is at its deepnest? When you are a kilometer away from your keyboard. It is impossible to control it, therefore it has infinite depth.
Brood war player of 11 years here. You guys need to understand that you are not "fighting" the UI of the game just because it's difficult to learn. And even if you are, why is it a bad thing that the game is challenging to learn. Properly moving units, selecting hotkeys, shift deselecting and reselecting units in a control group to organize them, etc. These are all things that make Brood War the timeless classic that it is. Figuring out how to properly sequence your actions requires you to analyze the game more deeply in order to optimize your actions. Your ability to do this better than your opponent is one of the most important skills you can learn. One small example would be when you're macroing from your production facilities, do you choose to hotkey them and macro from your keyboard, or do you move the screen to your production block and use the mouse as well. These small mechanical choices or optimizations can make a lot of difference and choosing the right one could be the difference between winning and losing. Just one of many reasons that Brood War is my favorite game. I'd suggest that if you don't want challenging mechanics, then don't play Brood War.
I remember when I was playing a zvp vs a guy who was far better than me. He went 1 gate reaver, I went 9 pool. After some skirmishes, I end up with 6 lings, and his reaver just pops out. I send all the lings to attack, calculate mentally the time it takes to build a scarab, select all lings except the one in the middle, and as I expect the scarab to be done, I pull all the lings I have selected. Thre reaver shoots killing one zergling, I dive in on the reaver and after killing it, win the game since i previously killed the pylon powering the gateway. That was something that came to my mind in that game as a "what if....". I dont remember my ex-girlfriends ass as well as I remember that moment. And that was just one of many great moments Broodwar gave me. Most of those ideas wont work, but the ones that do... And btw, that is just one aspect of Broodwar.
I wish I knew about Starcraft around the 2000s. I know I would have been in love. I discovered SC2 in 2010 but I am glad that the title has had such staying power that here in 2019 I can be apart of this niche group of gamers and streamers..enjoying this masterpiece and SC2.
I firmly believe that the frustration with the "difficult bullshit" of Broodwar arises from the mismatch between how good the player thinks he is, and how good he really is. Therefore when the player is only good with the hypothetical 3 out of 10 mechanical things required in the game that Day9 mentioned, the player will most likely (erroneously) conclude that the remaining 7/10 is unfair bullshit.
"What makes starcraft broodwar so cool, is that it is SO hard to tell anything to do ANYTHING...easily" As someone who started with SC2 in 2010 and just recently (1 week ago) started playing SC1 finishing the original campaign and in the middle of BW campaign, this hit HOME.
You can really see his love for the game; this a fantastic explanation of why it's so fun for people like me (literally one of y'all's moms) to watch other people play Starcraft. I'm no more proficient at Starcraft than I am at football; I can give it a shot but I'll probably end up just straining a muscle. I'm so excited at the prospect of watching Day[9] teach the game to a new generation!
I just got back from playing soccer. It is a strategy game, like Day9 says, but there were many times I tried to pass the ball and missed my player by 20 feet. It is also a physical game. Just like my lovely Brood War.
Super late comment but my only problem with BW is that unlike any physical sport I know of there are simply no points at which you can actually rest. I love the endurance aspect of it to a degree, but when it’s a nonstop sprint from start to finish it’s painful
@@aeroslythe6881 Another late comment :D But yes, endurance is a big part of it! I remember when I played, I was quite good early game, because I had builds memorized and I could keep the pace, mentally, for max 10 minutes. If I'm not done in those 10 minutes, my brain just start to hurt, I just stuck at the latest thing I was doing, like spamming hydra and a-move them and lose. How pros are playing 30+ minutes on their level, is beyond me, but soo satisfying to watch. ASL is living-room-TV entertainment in my house :)
People have difficulty grasping things like these sometimes. I mean seriously, Sean brings up golf (I used to play a bit of golf) and frankly Golf is an EXTREME comparison. Unlike Starcraft, where strategy is still pretty difficult, golf is EASY to strategize, you will rarely find yourself in a situation where it’s tough to figure out what the best club is and which direction you wanna hit the ball, that part is easy. But swinging that club just right is SO FUCKING HARD that even pros don’t get it just right all the time. And that’s part of the game, golf tournaments aren’t won because one guy or gal was smarter than all the others, they won because they just did good shots more consistently, same way a Brood War player wins a game because their APM was superior.
I used to watch day9 frequently, I love his Starcraft analisis and shenanigans, however when he started focusing on other games, I kinda driffted away to the point of no longer viewing him. Now that he intends to return, more yet, to Starcraft Broodwar, I cant hold my excitment and am really looking forward to watch his content again!
So this is the only game he plays well? This is my firs time seeing this video, because I like SC, but you cant call yourself a serious gamer if you can play only one game to the core. Even I, an old gamer whose time for work is getting better of him, can name at least 5-6 games Im extremely good at.
Qlicky who the hell said that? These guys are just saying that they only enjoyed Day9's Starcraft videos. I also feel the same, I only really watched him back when he did his dailies and stuff. Watched the occasional series from him like his Fallout playthrough, but his Starcraft videos have always been the best.
I just started playing StarCraft for the first time this last month, and it got me back into RTS games which I hadn't really played since Yuri's Revenge and Red Alert 3 when I was younger.
This is what makes BW so much less stressful than SC2 for me. You just always feel like you're a mess, and that's okay. Once you start getting overwhelmed in SC2, things just spiral out of control.
YES! Fuking subscribed. I've been trying to explain this to people for so long - the reason why strategies are made in real time is so you are intentionally put in a place where more is going on than you could possibly handle. The game is all about learning how to apply your limited attention span in the best way, while accepting that you can't control everything.
9:41 my point exactly. How did I want to shout this out loud since 2006. Hands down legendary. Bisu, he did Dark Templers a justice and treated Protoss just right.
Every company who makes games pandering to casuals needs to watch this video. SO frequently I hear "But X game has such a high barrier of entry because of skillcap!" No. No it doesn't. There were plenty of people who never touched the ladder and only played unranked 2v2 in Starcraft, and they sunk hundreds of hours into the game. There are people in Overwatch who have 500 hours in Quickplay. They're playing the game too, just in a different way. Making that the *only* way to play the game is heavily hurting any longevity and depth the game can have and there is no reason to design a game in that way because casual players are *already* playing casually.
i like how broodwar kinda relate well to being a irl commander. you tell your boys (ctrl group) to tell their boys to move (units) and they have trouble navigating through the terrain. and at the same time have to manage finances and logistics.(expanding and making sure you got enough resources to get the right tools)
If you're not willing to grind and don't want to be anxious but want to have fun, play Use Map Settings for thousands of hours of fun. Trust me on this suggestion :)
I LOVE.... LOOOVVEEE listening to Day9 talk about BW and SC2!! My god I wish he still did starcraft related content, I would love to just watch him ladder a few games a week. Come back to Stacraft please!! /beg
Love your positivity. When I was younger I was annoyed about the limit on control groups and the derpy path finding. Nowadays I think that's exactly what the game needs and makes it so special.
It's all about reactions and apm, you can practice all the combos you want in a fighting game but that won't do much good against a person who is actively trying to ruin your game plan. Love this video Day9.
Ties up well with his other bit of advice about when players run off-meta strats like double expansion without units: "Just fucking kill them." --Day9 _Also hello from the future. Necro time._
I missed you Day9. Come back to a good game that you're passionate about. The whole reason I ever watched your stuff was the intensity and expertise you had because you cared about the game. I know it's asking too much for you to do the Starcraft dailies again, but no Hearthstone video you make will ever touch how good the Scarlett vs. Bomber commentary was, or planetary fortress offensive, or...any of that shit.
It goes deeper. When you are laddering in SC or SC2 you are doing the same thing as when playing a casual game of football with the boys. You all know that you will never be as good as Ronaldo or Messi, but that does not discourage you from playing the game, quite the opposite. You all realise that despite sucking you ARE playing the same game as them. I will never be as good as Serral, but I am playing still playing Zerg and enjoying missing all my larva injects damn it! There is something cool about that :)
4:00 It's that exact kind of mentality that ruined Street Fighter 5. They tried to make a game that was all about decision-making, and tried to excise as much of the need for mechanical skill as they could. What they ended up with was a game that IMO, wasn't fun to play, wasn't fun to watch, and is generally just a mess. Yeah, sure, these random players just happened to catch up to and surpass the fighting game Gods that have dominated the scene for literal decades, just as SF5 came out right? Yeah sure, right, it's all because of their skill and not because the skill ceiling itself was lowered? Ok. King of Fighters 14 also suffered for them trying to pare things down (among lots of issues), I'd assume due to complaints that 13's mechanics were "too difficult" to master in terms of execution (even though XIII already had executional shortcuts and pretty easy timings for most things). I got into Tekken since they put one of my favorite characters ever, Geese Howard, into that game. Holy shit there was so much to learn, mechanically and with character match ups. Yeah, it could get frustrating sometimes, but at the same time it felt like you were never put into a box. Things were always interesting, staleness never set in. Some of these modern titles felt like they were stale from day 1.
AirLancer The game companies have to cater to lazy useless people. If someone picked yo starcraft now, they would quit within a few hours. Now they graphics have to be fantastic and lots of big explosions/moves. It also has to be simplified for the lazy lot, who literally want to use no brain power to play a game. Reminds me of when I used to play sf2 back in the day. Only the kids who went out their way to learn and play it, was able to compete at the arcades. When that bubble game came out, I saw all my lazy friends play it lol. And everyone else pissed off, because sf2 arcade got removed for this piece of shit noob game lol. We refused to play it, because it was pointless.
I feel like in the fighting game community this topic doesnt get as Much attention And isnt as well understood Or not understood at all Or maybe its some other reasons why people play sf5 over something else People are still playing sc2 after all
Great point for the competitive/multiplayer scene. As a single player casual, I had such a frustrating time playing the final few missions because of how tedious it was... and what a joy it was to get back to SC2! But then again I did get the "real" experience, frustration included :)
even more crazy than the fact that the whole matchup took a swing after bisu figured out a strat, is the fact that is happened over 8 years after the game came out. 8 freaking years and a 20% swing in the meta just happened because of something a player did and other players adjusting, not the devs messing with the balance patches.
Starcraft 2 had a similar moment to the Bisu corsair DT moment, when MVP used ghosts to demolish a zerg in a GSL. Not many had realized that if you were willing to put in the effort to spam the snipe spell, ghosts were Godlike vs even massive zerg deathballs of broodlords and ultralisks. It was sick, people were going to try to learn to use their ghosts like a Korean, and then Blizzard almost immediately nerfed the snipe spell into a specifically anti-caster ability. The curation of that game was just different, changes to software were made in reaction to the community instantly. It's probably just a product of the internet era where customer feedback reaches the company instantly.
Since 2009 he did a live show called the day9 daily that was exclusively starcraft then moved to startcraft 2 when it was released. It wasn't until the past 2 years that he moved on to other games. I really enjoy the dota stuff even tho i don't play it, and look forward to seeing him return to why I watched him in the first place, Starcraft.
I got a question about ZvZ in Broodwar. Often the Zergs get a second hatch to produce more units right away in their main but why not make it at their expansion NEAR THE GAS blocking at the choke? Expanding ofc doesnt make a lot of sense in ZvZ but creating a choke that then you can defend with sunkens and only a small amount of lings while getting easy access to a second gas later sounds amazing to me. I havent seen someone try anything like that ever and you can bet that all my ZvZs in remastered will look like this;)
I don't know exactly what map are you talking about, do you want to make hatchery inside your main near the choke or outside? Making it outside - you might as well expand, and if you make it near the choke it's safer to get the 2nd hatch near your main and just put a sunken in your drones in case of a ling all in. Assuming you're going 12 pool gas hatch some timings will strike just as the hatchery is being finished which is too late to make a sunken at the choke.
The reason why we dont expand in ZvZ is that a mass of zerglings will just crush us or that its too hard to defend a second location. We are building our hatch at the choke to create a location, a smaller choke something like a ramp, we can hopefully defend. Then with a smaller amount of lings that we put inside that choke we can hopefully hold just long enough for our sunken to finish and then our advantage is on. As you already pointed out there are hatch builds in ZvZ so if those work timing wise and they do moving the hatch could aswell. The map needs a gas somewhat close to the choke and a choke to close of with your hatch.
"Not the best player in the world" - You won the International Cyber games back in the day, I mean man you where pretty fucking good in your/our (I say our cos i was playing back when you won) not pro but i was obsessed at the time) day.
Huh, you perfectly described why I love bw more than sc2. Sc2 always felt too "hand hold-y" to me. I love in bw the minimap is completely black and the feeling of exploring the unknown on an unfamiliar map. I love feeling in absolute control and knowing that my victory or defeat is completely up to my performance and control, but with sc2 a lot of that is subdued or completely removed. Fog of war is basically non-existent, and all of the expansions are just so unnaturally close together. Infinite select and such perfect pathing really just get rid of the nuances in control and positioning. It just doesn't feel right to me.
Day9 I've watched a lot of your shows. I've played SC Broodwar for roughly 10 years, started when I was 9. I bought SC2 when it came out, collectors edition, etc. and it just never did it for me. I hope you really enjoy the remaster, and I look forward to seeing lots of content created around it. Thanks for all your vids :)
I miss your SC discussions, this was awesome, and exactly how I feel about brood war and appreciate it's high skill cap, as well as its place in gaming history
Last time I watched Day9 was several years ago. I came back to see what he has to say about the new remaster and couldn't help notice his damn camera is still out of focus. I thought it had dropped to 480p...
Camera out of focus? What, do you want him to fix it, essentially dumbing it down for every casual viewer? The camera being out of focus makes the whole video stand out. It's an essential part of the viewing experience. If you want a perfectly set up camera, go watch some oth... I can't go on. This sounds too believable :S...
I strongly disagree with your opinion. Imagine the following situation: -Sean, come out and solve this very long and difficult integral I've written down here. -Okay mister RumpleHussler, let me just... -And you cannot use pen or paper or calculator, you should do all the computations in your head! -... But why? -Because that will make this problem more skillful of course! -But what does it have to do with mathematical analysis? It's not like I'll get better at solving integrals if I try to keep it all in my head. It would look cooler, but why would it mean that I'm better at it? -You don't understand Sean, it's all about skiiiiiillll. And storing and computing giant formulas in you head is the part of this skiiiiiillll. So go on... And don't get me wrong, I like first starcraft just like the other guy, but saying that horrible pathfinding, unit grouping and squad limit were the advantages of the game is like saying that that that having an abusive husband/wife that beats you everyday is great for you because it will make you more sustainable to pain in the future. Some things just need to go away.
the analogy fails because the point of the professor's exercise is mental math skills. I'd find a mental math competition between people trying to solve something complex much more interesting than "pen and paper and calculator"
Nostalgia goggles are a powerful thing. There was a lot of discussion/complaining about this when SC2 first came out. Besides more subtle mechanical differences, there were a good few things streamlined and made not-broken because 90% of the people who were going to buy a game would feel better playing with them. It had nothing to do with being 'casual' or playing an 'easier' game, but social networks still got non-stop complaints alluding to that. Liking a game the way it was is all well and good. But it's important not to treat it like some god that can never be adjusted. I always kinda wondered what would've happened if Blizzard was more prudent about patching games in the BW era. A lot of that stuff would've ended up fixed and improved over the years, and I don't think it would've made people stop playing. anyway I'm just rambling now so I'm gonna go.
I think one of the BIG reasons why Starcraft 2 has the mechanics it has, is to be more welcoming and easier to the beginner/noob, that are picking up the game for the first time or watching someone else play it and thinking about picking it up. I agree with Sean's sentiment "Don't make the game easier" and I somewhat agree with "Its Brood War's mechanics that make the game so incredible", but my arguement to this is that there is still plenty of things about Starcraft 2 that make it a great challenge (even with the simplified unit mechanics), I think that from these added/changed mechanics comes new/different strategies that can only be perfectly utilised by the best players in the world, I don't think it's necessarily a worse game it's just a whole new experience.
I've been waiting so long for Day[9] to return to StarCraft. Can't wait for the remaster release. I hope it injects some long term popularity back into the game.
this is the best rant i've heard in a while since plague of gripes complained about dragon ball for about an hour, very well done, you got my every bit of attention and even tho i don't play that well it all made sense when you explained it
This sounds like an argument against Blizzard adding custom hotkeys to Brood War. If there is a circle of hell for bad commentators about video games then anyone who says that deserves to go there forever. The keys that shipped with Brood War vary by language/region and they all have absolutely no redeeming value. They do not raise the skill ceiling: they only raise the skill floor, and pretending that there isn't a high skill floor for StarCraft is nonsense. However, if you aren't saying "no custom hotkeys" then you might have some valid points somewhere. I'm not sure Brood War should have the unit selection limit increased or get multiple building select. Things like that might be changing the game too much. But I think the new patches should absolutely make workers automatically start mining at the beginning of matches and we should absolutely be able to assign new workers to start mining by setting their rally point on some minerals. Some StarCraft II features like that are obvious no-brainers which had no business being left out of StarCraft I.
when they added the auto mining to starcraft 2 (it wasnt in vanilla) my first reaction was "really? people suck that bad that they cant do it themselves?" same thing im gonna say to you.... do you really suck so bad you need auto mining? starcraft 2 is so damn easy because of that, which is exactly why its competitive scene died hard. git gud scrub. i jumped on sc2 after like a year without even touching it, jumped to diamond in an afternoon. if i jumped into bw without a week of warming up first i would be wrecked by everyone. the reason people still like bw and never cared that much for sc2 is precisely because of those noob loving features that made stuff too easy and others that wrecked the balance. i mean its been years and several expansions and sc2 still isnt fucking balanced. bw is so balanced that a creative thinker (as day9 mentioned in the video) can totally swing things in their favor by that alone. in sc2 if the unit sucks, it sucks, no amount of creative strategy will help them win. so stop talking about shit you obviously dont understand kid, and get good.
An RTS is ultimately a combat simulator on some level and I just can't imagine miners who are smart enough to mine all on their own but so dumb they need to be individually told to start. I don't think they could be both at the same time.
A big distinction that needs to be made between a lot of the mechanics in BW and hotkeys is that once you know all of your hotkeys it doesn't really matter where they are. The purpose of leaving in a lot of the mechanics is that those affect time, but once you know all the hotkeys by heart it's going to basically take the same amount of time to press the button no matter where it is meaning the game is still played in the same way. This is as opposed to your automining suggestion which would heavily effect this aspect of time management. Not having to select your workers to get them to mine would remove one thing which the player has to worry about, which means they will have more time to devote to other things, which will change how the game is played.
Haha he just explained what happened to Street Fighter 5 without even talking about it. Capcom lowered skill bar necessary for pulling high damage combos and now game is unbearable.
I agree on every point. I did hope they would bring the SC2 style of campaign to the single player however. IMHO it would be so much more fun to have some kind of interfaceable area like the Hyperion during briefings and then the permanent upgrades plus triple normal units with bonus objectives per mission approach to the storyline. Multiplayer is fine as is.
exactly, thats why i agree with keeping it... now if they release a new game with that crap you can expect people to bash their doors with pitchforks and torches.
I love BW, but the sad truth nowdays is that very few will be willing enough to practice for months to be good at the game, when they can play any given MOBA and feel good about their play without any practice.
The point that mechanical requirements create strategies in their own right is a very good one, but I firmly believe players shouldn't have to fight the game's UI or engine in order to play. (Low unit selection limit, dragoon AI) A game with an easy-to-control engine is more accessible, and provided the game design is deep enough (don't quite think SC2 has reached this point) there can be just as much strategic depth, and said depth can also be more appreciated by viewers.
well as he already said, the clunkyness IS "the game". I believe we should respect that and respect the players that like it that way. Instead of trying to change the game in an effort to "fix" it to our personal liking, we should accept that BW isnt our cup of tea and find a game that suits our preferences better. You can look at it this way: If an fps player doesnt like the way an mmorpg works, hes not gonna push for the game to be "fixed". Hes just gonna play quake.
I agree it shouldn't feel like you're fighting the game engine or UI to accomplish common tasks. It is the goal of every game to find the right interface for user-to-game-engine for a fun balance between the difficulty and capability of the player. Modern gaming use cooldowns, resource bars, and unlocks for this and older games had continues/lives, save points, and combos. These examples aren't perfect parallels but they do demonstrate that short of reading your mind every game will have barriers that keep you from performing perfectly. That said, I think we all have to keep in mind that even if the barriers in Starcraft aren't to your (modern) tastes they have struck a balance that created a lot of enjoyment for a great many people.
I mean the thing is that it's sort of arbitrary which mechanics are "intended" and which ones come out of accidental flaws in the game. It's just that when people make new, flashy versions of old games, they tend to smooth over those unintended rough edges, but without adding anything new to keep the level of depth. This is basically what you can see when you compare SC:BW to SC2, DotA to LoL, SF4 to SF5 and so on. All of them are examples of taking an older hard game and simply taking away hard things that were considered "non-essential" without adding anything new, thus making a less sustainable competitive game. Like, I'm sure it could be done, somehow, but the problem is that it's actually super hard to purposefully create depth, since that would require you to basically fully understand how the mechanics of the game are gonna be used before you released it. And if you do, then you can bet that players are gonna discover the same things pretty quickly and exhaust the new things they can find in the game. It's good to not have full control of the game you're making, basically. Add characters/units/mechanics because the idea seems cool or whatever rather than because you want to fulfill a specific template, and let people figure out their own uses.
Decided to watch because I've only learned of Day9 since he started uploading dota content, and I've never played Starcraft before and wanted to hear an argument for it. Doesn't sound like my cup of tea personally , but this is a REALLY compelling rant as for why Brood War is so popular. I've always wondered why people were still playing SC1 instead of 2, and it's super interesting to hear a pro's thoughts on this stuff. Great stuff.
![[Highlight] Why PvZ in Broodwar is WEIRD](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oM3Z7FjuixU/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Highlight] Why PvZ in Broodwar is WEIRD](/img/tr.png)
![[Highlight] Favorite Childhood Memory](/img/n.gif)
Man, it's amazing hearing Day9 talking about something he knows really well again. There's so much confidence here compared to his usual content!
Dust IV agreed I've missed him
Sean seems so much more alive when he talks about Starcraft. The passion SEEPS out of his every pore. It's so fucking inspiring, jesus.
Sean, if you're reading this: I CANNOT WAIT to watch your stream/videos on Brood War HD.
Yea feels like he is back :D
This reminds me of his SC2 dailies, so good. I stopped watching when he stopped the dailies. Really looking forward to this SC1 remastered series.
We better have some Brood War Funday Monday's. That is all I am saying.
IIRC he said that Funday Mondays were way too much work for just him or even a few people to do for a single daily, since he had to go through hundreds of replays a week.
Well, he could just have fundays, where he just plays brood war!
hastyscorpion Maybe we could have impromptu, Funday Someday
I'm just glad there's any sort of StarCraft content from him, really. It's good to be back.
Love the name ;)
Wow. This might be one of the most important Starcraft videos ever made. No joke, this makes me want to go back and play now, because I certainly held onto that wrong mindset that he laid out here. Especially appreciated the bit about pros having things go wrong too - my assumption and expectation was definitely in that camp of "they're beyond it so they're playing a strategy game".
10/10 transition to Hearthstone at the end too
Yep it persuaded me as well. The physical demand of brood war adds something to the game
No, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but the sad truth is that he's just a butthurt player that took years to get good at annoying, clunky, controls and has gotten diluted enough to think they add something, just like all the other players of that era.
Instead of thinking of it from the player perspective, think of it as the spectator. Watch games of Starcraft and Starcraft 2. Then ask yourself, is Starcraft more fun to watch because of all the clunky controls? Can you really tell the difference? I can't, but I sure can tell when football players are out of shape in a game. I mean, you can notice a player's skill if you watch from their point of view, which is not really fun to watch, but in the spectator mode? It doesn't really matter.
+tomaO2
Who cares if spectators can't tell the difference? I don't see how that's relevant to any of the actual points Day9 brought up.
But speaking of spectators... how well have recent RTS games done in e-sports? Not so great. Maybe they could learn something from Brood War, and not dumb down mechanics to where it becomes glorified rock-paper-scissors, as Day9 put it.
How would you not notice it? This isn't "his APM is a little slow", this is "they got distracted at the wrong moment and misrallied their dragoons to a totally out of position location" or "they weren't paying attention to their minimap and lost all their workers at their 5th to a DT drop" or other obvious mistakes. While the annoying, clunky controls are irritating from a playing-the-game perspective, having a (even unintentionally) unobtainably high skill cap means mistakes are made, which makes for more interesting games because people have deal with their own massive mistakes on the fly. While finals are memorable, some of the more ridiculously entertaining games in SC2 come from the group stages or even Code A where two equally skilled but not skill capped players go head to head. If you have someone who has hit the skill cap, it results in games where either they play perfectly against someone who's not at the skill cap and it's a one-sided steamroll, or the game just goes in a perpetual back-and-forth of whatever the current meta is, shaving off units/workers until one person misclicks one unit during one battle and a nearly-invisible slipup is what cascades into a gg.
I won't deny that Brood War's *method* of having an unobtainable skill cap is via a clunky, annoying method of interacting with the game, but I also think that if you want your RTS to remain interesting to spectators at higher levels, forcing players into situations where they're essentially forced to prioritize what kind of mistakes they're going to allow to happen, instead of allowing a sufficiently high APM player to turn it into a turn-based strategy, is a good way of doing it.
tomaO2 talking about butthurt and annoying
"Well Hell..... ITS ABOUT TIME!"
Started watching DayJ years and years ago, and while I have stuck with him through HS transition and other random games (Im actually up-to-date on this ((how sad am I LOL)) I have to say none of them have ever been as engaging, interesting or exciting to me as his Starcraft content. I understand ultimately this is a job and hes going to do what is generally considered more popular for viewership and numbers so this "Remastered" coming out and getting a lot of hype might be the greatest thing to hit the internet in the last decade. I've played broodwar since it came out, even though I was only like 7 when it dropped, and I'll never be a pro by any means - but every single game feels different. Its the only game where I play against myself and there is just another player there trying to inconvenience me the entire time which is unmatched by any other game.
I know a lot of Day9's Day1's will be super pleased to see this. Thumbs up Sean P.
- The guy who rocked your world in your star strikers impromptu videos with love,
Mega
But seriously, How in the HELL does Day9 only have 525K subs? Dude's one of the most entertaining web personalities and does some of the best gaming content (both serious and not serious ones) AND he is a former pro player. Yet in the age where 1M subs are everywhere, Day9 still stuck on 500K
Man I miss this StarCraft Day9. I hardly play the game but always loved watching pro games and Day9's high level analysis. He is unmatched when it comes to passionately explaining how this video game has so much depth and the pros playing it have so much knowledge and expertise.
Good to see you back Day9! Starcraft isn't the same without you.
finaly
I think you pointed out something great.A game can only be so much as its community. That being said there is also the solo component. But in terms of social aspects,talking about the game,letting others know,gettingnew fans, convincing lazy people, a good socializing fan is making it all. Day9 adds in that dedicated knowledge enthusiasm combined with a whole lot of well meant humor And I laughed alot! which you can appreciate,it doesn't always matter that it's not a pro comedian which very few people are tbh. Being happy and confident is doing already half the story/joke.
annnnnd hes gone
Day9 back making brood war content :O i'm in heaven
"I think those are *hallucinations*, Greg" *badum tish*
"You know SC2 was halluc the whole time, right?"
Just saying
You werent loss
Your argument about RTS games being strategy secondarily and about speed and reflexes moreso is the exact argument I make about Fighting Games, just in reverse. People think that those games are mainly about physical skill and twitch reflexes, and while they are somewhat, they're even more about knowledge, tactics, and decision-making. So, people who think they'll like one of these genres based on the surface impressions may actually prefer the other.
this is so good
I dunno, RTS can be almost strictly strategic; see Wargame. Or, to a lesser extent, Zero-K.
It depends on which fighting game. SSBM is 90%+ execution and mechanics.
@@gabrielgarcia1641 this 100%. For most fighting games yeah execution isn't as important but for SSBM you can destroy an opponent without even thinking if you have the knowledge and execution aspects down and they don't.
@@gabrielgarcia1641 Smash isn't a fighting game
The FGC needs this video.
Ever since Starcraft remastered was announced I have heard so many opinions from people that are (or have been) big in the Stacraft 2 (now) scene. Like guys from LifeisaGlitch, TotalBiscuit and such... They all have their opinions but they all agree on the fact that Starcraft 1 and Broodwar was the best RTS of all times. And they do even explain on the fact that Stacraft is such a deep game and has such potential. And most even go on to deffend the original Broodwar to whatever potential game Starcraft remastered might be.
However, this is the first time, the first "rant" I've seen where someone actually explains THAT depth. Where someone takes the time to explain me or us (people who came only after SC2 came about) what this "legendary" game was all about. I mean, I've heard about the mechanics of SC1 players, about the cluncky unit control or about and such stuff. But I have never considered it to be considered a part of the game.
As someone who never played that game, I would think of it as clunkiness of an old school game that would need to be improved in order to remaster that game. Same way doing for instance a remaster on Metal Gear Solid 1 would be nice if it had better controls than the original (that at the time were ok but now we can see they are kinda annoying).
But that's just it. This video exlpains, in such a great fashion, why for this case, for Stacraft, or Starcraft remastered, those things should not be changed, and what was the actual realization this game created with its clunkiness and all.
I am so glad I never unsubbed from this channel even though D9 stopped doing SC2 content alltogether. Hope this game (sc remastered) gets to be as great as the original and we get to have Day9 relive and showcase the love for this game that is so legendary. And who knows? Time to restart that Day9 daily show maybe? I can dream....
Thanks D9! You are awsome!
+
Great comment, just gotta say though that MGS1 was already remastered / remade in the form of MGS: The Twin Snakes.
From what I heard, the remaster is purely graphical and some quality of life additions multiplayer, like matchmaking and such.
Everything else about the game will be so unchanged that you could even watch old replays on the remastered client.
In "depth" explanation of BroodWar "depth". It is hard to control. The harder to control it is, the more "depth" it has, right? So. If you control SC with only one hand, the SC gets two time as deep. If you break your fingers before playing, it ts 5 times as deep. Do you know when SC is at its deepnest? When you are a kilometer away from your keyboard. It is impossible to control it, therefore it has infinite depth.
Not what he said LOL
I could listen to Sean explain god damn explain anything to me any day.
Sir, do you have a minute to talk about our lord and savior Saintmichael Plott?
+
For reals! He's such an interesting person to just listen to when he gets real passionate like this. I could listen to a rant like this for hours.
He is an incredibly talented storyteller
Damnit Sean, be my professor already.
I dont even play Starcraft. I just like hearing Sean passionately discuss things
Tears of happiness. I need to put this on loop. As the song says "Thank you Day9".
stoked for brood war videos
Stoked for SarcasticGoose to join the BW community
Funny that this is coming up again in the FGC. Such a classic video.
The focus on how strange, unintended mechanical difficulties create fascinating gameplay depth reminds me a lot of Melee
100%. As an avid brood war and SSBM enjoyer, i think competitive gamers can deff appreciate the complex mechanics in both games
Day9 teaches Purge BroodWar series coming then?
That would be hilarious! They have an amazing chemistry... Though I feel like Sean is just a guy that can make everyone look good.
Zkaro lmao
Brood War is way to hard for a dota player
Dreadnought O.o yea pretty much
Zkaro purge used to play SC I am pretty sure
Brood war player of 11 years here. You guys need to understand that you are not "fighting" the UI of the game just because it's difficult to learn. And even if you are, why is it a bad thing that the game is challenging to learn. Properly moving units, selecting hotkeys, shift deselecting and reselecting units in a control group to organize them, etc. These are all things that make Brood War the timeless classic that it is.
Figuring out how to properly sequence your actions requires you to analyze the game more deeply in order to optimize your actions. Your ability to do this better than your opponent is one of the most important skills you can learn. One small example would be when you're macroing from your production facilities, do you choose to hotkey them and macro from your keyboard, or do you move the screen to your production block and use the mouse as well. These small mechanical choices or optimizations can make a lot of difference and choosing the right one could be the difference between winning and losing. Just one of many reasons that Brood War is my favorite game.
I'd suggest that if you don't want challenging mechanics, then don't play Brood War.
I remember when I was playing a zvp vs a guy who was far better than me. He went 1 gate reaver, I went 9 pool.
After some skirmishes, I end up with 6 lings, and his reaver just pops out. I send all the lings to attack, calculate mentally the time it takes to build a scarab, select all lings except the one in the middle, and as I expect the scarab to be done, I pull all the lings I have selected. Thre reaver shoots killing one zergling, I dive in on the reaver and after killing it, win the game since i previously killed the pylon powering the gateway.
That was something that came to my mind in that game as a "what if....".
I dont remember my ex-girlfriends ass as well as I remember that moment.
And that was just one of many great moments Broodwar gave me.
Most of those ideas wont work, but the ones that do...
And btw, that is just one aspect of Broodwar.
ex girlfriends arent important, thats why they exes
I am so so excited, oh my gosh
I wish I knew about Starcraft around the 2000s. I know I would have been in love. I discovered SC2 in 2010 but I am glad that the title has had such staying power that here in 2019 I can be apart of this niche group of gamers and streamers..enjoying this masterpiece and SC2.
I firmly believe that the frustration with the "difficult bullshit" of Broodwar arises from the mismatch between how good the player thinks he is, and how good he really is. Therefore when the player is only good with the hypothetical 3 out of 10 mechanical things required in the game that Day9 mentioned, the player will most likely (erroneously) conclude that the remaining 7/10 is unfair bullshit.
I've missed good ol' Professor Day 9 Talkin bout starcraft
"What makes starcraft broodwar so cool, is that it is SO hard to tell anything to do ANYTHING...easily"
As someone who started with SC2 in 2010 and just recently (1 week ago) started playing SC1 finishing the original campaign and in the middle of BW campaign, this hit HOME.
Broodwar can be summarized in these words: "Art through adversity"
You can really see his love for the game; this a fantastic explanation of why it's so fun for people like me (literally one of y'all's moms) to watch other people play Starcraft. I'm no more proficient at Starcraft than I am at football; I can give it a shot but I'll probably end up just straining a muscle. I'm so excited at the prospect of watching Day[9] teach the game to a new generation!
I just got back from playing soccer. It is a strategy game, like Day9 says, but there were many times I tried to pass the ball and missed my player by 20 feet. It is also a physical game. Just like my lovely Brood War.
Super late comment but my only problem with BW is that unlike any physical sport I know of there are simply no points at which you can actually rest. I love the endurance aspect of it to a degree, but when it’s a nonstop sprint from start to finish it’s painful
@@aeroslythe6881 Another late comment :D
But yes, endurance is a big part of it! I remember when I played, I was quite good early game, because I had builds memorized and I could keep the pace, mentally, for max 10 minutes. If I'm not done in those 10 minutes, my brain just start to hurt, I just stuck at the latest thing I was doing, like spamming hydra and a-move them and lose.
How pros are playing 30+ minutes on their level, is beyond me, but soo satisfying to watch. ASL is living-room-TV entertainment in my house :)
People have difficulty grasping things like these sometimes. I mean seriously, Sean brings up golf (I used to play a bit of golf) and frankly Golf is an EXTREME comparison. Unlike Starcraft, where strategy is still pretty difficult, golf is EASY to strategize, you will rarely find yourself in a situation where it’s tough to figure out what the best club is and which direction you wanna hit the ball, that part is easy. But swinging that club just right is SO FUCKING HARD that even pros don’t get it just right all the time. And that’s part of the game, golf tournaments aren’t won because one guy or gal was smarter than all the others, they won because they just did good shots more consistently, same way a Brood War player wins a game because their APM was superior.
I used to watch day9 frequently, I love his Starcraft analisis and shenanigans, however when he started focusing on other games, I kinda driffted away to the point of no longer viewing him. Now that he intends to return, more yet, to Starcraft Broodwar, I cant hold my excitment and am really looking forward to watch his content again!
Yep, same happened to me, lost interest when he played other crappy games.
I un subed when he ended sarcraft series. Now Iam interested again.
haha i feel EXACTLY the same way
So this is the only game he plays well? This is my firs time seeing this video, because I like SC, but you cant call yourself a serious gamer if you can play only one game to the core. Even I, an old gamer whose time for work is getting better of him, can name at least 5-6 games Im extremely good at.
Qlicky who the hell said that? These guys are just saying that they only enjoyed Day9's Starcraft videos. I also feel the same, I only really watched him back when he did his dailies and stuff. Watched the occasional series from him like his Fallout playthrough, but his Starcraft videos have always been the best.
I just started playing StarCraft for the first time this last month, and it got me back into RTS games which I hadn't really played since Yuri's Revenge and Red Alert 3 when I was younger.
This is a phenomenal summarization of Starcraft.
i LOVE the fact its a real time game. Clicking on them gateways to produce some dragoons is so satisfying.
Finally Day9 is going to play starcraft again
Its about time!
MrLegendary0ne damn right
This is what makes BW so much less stressful than SC2 for me. You just always feel like you're a mess, and that's okay.
Once you start getting overwhelmed in SC2, things just spiral out of control.
YES! Fuking subscribed. I've been trying to explain this to people for so long - the reason why strategies are made in real time is so you are intentionally put in a place where more is going on than you could possibly handle. The game is all about learning how to apply your limited attention span in the best way, while accepting that you can't control everything.
9:41 my point exactly. How did I want to shout this out loud since 2006. Hands down legendary. Bisu, he did Dark Templers a justice and treated Protoss just right.
Every company who makes games pandering to casuals needs to watch this video. SO frequently I hear "But X game has such a high barrier of entry because of skillcap!" No. No it doesn't. There were plenty of people who never touched the ladder and only played unranked 2v2 in Starcraft, and they sunk hundreds of hours into the game. There are people in Overwatch who have 500 hours in Quickplay. They're playing the game too, just in a different way. Making that the *only* way to play the game is heavily hurting any longevity and depth the game can have and there is no reason to design a game in that way because casual players are *already* playing casually.
well, the mindset of keeping non-ladder players in consideration certainly didn't work for SC2.
Just sayin'.
i like how broodwar kinda relate well to being a irl commander. you tell your boys (ctrl group) to tell their boys to move (units) and they have trouble navigating through the terrain. and at the same time have to manage finances and logistics.(expanding and making sure you got enough resources to get the right tools)
Never played Brood War before. I'm so hyped after watching your vid, can't wait.
If you're not willing to grind and don't want to be anxious but want to have fun, play Use Map Settings for thousands of hours of fun. Trust me on this suggestion :)
I needed to do that with so much power overwhelming when coming back from SC2 :D I sucked so hard bot Zealot rushed me gg easy :D
i can see the passion flowing through his body and his expressions, Day9 is back and this time...its for Broodwar. I am fricking pumped :)
I LOVE.... LOOOVVEEE listening to Day9 talk about BW and SC2!! My god I wish he still did starcraft related content, I would love to just watch him ladder a few games a week.
Come back to Stacraft please!! /beg
Welcome back Day9. I think I can speak for most everyone when I say; "Hell, it's about time."
What about my Terran legend Boxer? :C
While I agree with you that he is a legend... he isn't the best. He's the Emperor. ;)
He was the best for his time, but he's nowhere near as good as Flash and others
I was sad the Maestro didn't make the cut either, you know... sKyHigh?
flash is the only bonjwa he mentioned the others had there time longer ago.
jaedong was an absolute beast though... if Flash hadn't come to power, jaedong would have dominated.
Can't tell what I am more happy about. Getting Starcraft Remastered or the fact that we will get Day[9] back for this game. Awesome.
i dont even play games anymore, but always love listening to this guy haha
Love your positivity. When I was younger I was annoyed about the limit on control groups and the derpy path finding. Nowadays I think that's exactly what the game needs and makes it so special.
It's all about reactions and apm, you can practice all the combos you want in a fighting game but that won't do much good against a person who is actively trying to ruin your game plan. Love this video Day9.
Ties up well with his other bit of advice about when players run off-meta strats like double expansion without units:
"Just fucking kill them." --Day9
_Also hello from the future. Necro time._
You also inadvertently made a beautiful point about fighting games and the execution "barrier" therein, whether you realized it or not. Brava.
Day9 is finally returning to his home. :D
You can selectively remove the green colour from the colour channel mixer. It completely removes the green glow around you.
Thanks for the upload. It was good!
I enjoyed your point about strategy based on game mechanic barriers.
8:52 - Ah, the ole "I've digressed, and need to remember what I was talking about" water break :-)
"If the quarter was in your right hand, that would been Micro." -Day 9
I missed you Day9. Come back to a good game that you're passionate about. The whole reason I ever watched your stuff was the intensity and expertise you had because you cared about the game. I know it's asking too much for you to do the Starcraft dailies again, but no Hearthstone video you make will ever touch how good the Scarlett vs. Bomber commentary was, or planetary fortress offensive, or...any of that shit.
i have been waiting years for you to make sc videos again, that is what you are best at
It goes deeper. When you are laddering in SC or SC2 you are doing the same thing as when playing a casual game of football with the boys. You all know that you will never be as good as Ronaldo or Messi, but that does not discourage you from playing the game, quite the opposite. You all realise that despite sucking you ARE playing the same game as them. I will never be as good as Serral, but I am playing still playing Zerg and enjoying missing all my larva injects damn it! There is something cool about that :)
oh man, ever since that video on mutalisk stacking in brood war a year back I've been hurting for brood war day9 shtuff
4:00 It's that exact kind of mentality that ruined Street Fighter 5. They tried to make a game that was all about decision-making, and tried to excise as much of the need for mechanical skill as they could. What they ended up with was a game that IMO, wasn't fun to play, wasn't fun to watch, and is generally just a mess. Yeah, sure, these random players just happened to catch up to and surpass the fighting game Gods that have dominated the scene for literal decades, just as SF5 came out right? Yeah sure, right, it's all because of their skill and not because the skill ceiling itself was lowered? Ok.
King of Fighters 14 also suffered for them trying to pare things down (among lots of issues), I'd assume due to complaints that 13's mechanics were "too difficult" to master in terms of execution (even though XIII already had executional shortcuts and pretty easy timings for most things). I got into Tekken since they put one of my favorite characters ever, Geese Howard, into that game. Holy shit there was so much to learn, mechanically and with character match ups. Yeah, it could get frustrating sometimes, but at the same time it felt like you were never put into a box. Things were always interesting, staleness never set in. Some of these modern titles felt like they were stale from day 1.
AirLancer The game companies have to cater to lazy useless people. If someone picked yo starcraft now, they would quit within a few hours.
Now they graphics have to be fantastic and lots of big explosions/moves. It also has to be simplified for the lazy lot, who literally want to use no brain power to play a game.
Reminds me of when I used to play sf2 back in the day. Only the kids who went out their way to learn and play it, was able to compete at the arcades.
When that bubble game came out, I saw all my lazy friends play it lol. And everyone else pissed off, because sf2 arcade got removed for this piece of shit noob game lol. We refused to play it, because it was pointless.
I feel like in the fighting game community this topic doesnt get as Much attention
And isnt as well understood
Or not understood at all
Or maybe its some other reasons why people play sf5 over something else
People are still playing sc2 after all
Great point for the competitive/multiplayer scene. As a single player casual, I had such a frustrating time playing the final few missions because of how tedious it was... and what a joy it was to get back to SC2! But then again I did get the "real" experience, frustration included :)
First good Day9 video in 5 years.
Not sure why we have to wait for HD. At best, it won't make the game worse.
even more crazy than the fact that the whole matchup took a swing after bisu figured out a strat, is the fact that is happened over 8 years after the game came out. 8 freaking years and a 20% swing in the meta just happened because of something a player did and other players adjusting, not the devs messing with the balance patches.
Super Smash Bros Melee
Starcraft 2 had a similar moment to the Bisu corsair DT moment, when MVP used ghosts to demolish a zerg in a GSL. Not many had realized that if you were willing to put in the effort to spam the snipe spell, ghosts were Godlike vs even massive zerg deathballs of broodlords and ultralisks. It was sick, people were going to try to learn to use their ghosts like a Korean, and then Blizzard almost immediately nerfed the snipe spell into a specifically anti-caster ability. The curation of that game was just different, changes to software were made in reaction to the community instantly. It's probably just a product of the internet era where customer feedback reaches the company instantly.
wait the hearthstone legend and dota hero known as Day9 played Starcraft??? :0
idk if you're sarcastic or not (it's hard to tell through the internet) but starcraft played a huge role in how Day9 became popular.
I hope that you're joking...
Since 2009 he did a live show called the day9 daily that was exclusively starcraft then moved to startcraft 2 when it was released. It wasn't until the past 2 years that he moved on to other games.
I really enjoy the dota stuff even tho i don't play it, and look forward to seeing him return to why I watched him in the first place, Starcraft.
I have some bad news Joey, ur a dum
u wot m8
I got a question about ZvZ in Broodwar. Often the Zergs get a second hatch to produce more units right away in their main but why not make it at their expansion NEAR THE GAS blocking at the choke?
Expanding ofc doesnt make a lot of sense in ZvZ but creating a choke that then you can defend with sunkens and only a small amount of lings while getting easy access to a second gas later sounds amazing to me.
I havent seen someone try anything like that ever and you can bet that all my ZvZs in remastered will look like this;)
I don't know exactly what map are you talking about, do you want to make hatchery inside your main near the choke or outside? Making it outside - you might as well expand, and if you make it near the choke it's safer to get the 2nd hatch near your main and just put a sunken in your drones in case of a ling all in. Assuming you're going 12 pool gas hatch some timings will strike just as the hatchery is being finished which is too late to make a sunken at the choke.
The reason why we dont expand in ZvZ is that a mass of zerglings will just crush us or that its too hard to defend a second location. We are building our hatch at the choke to create a location, a smaller choke something like a ramp, we can hopefully defend.
Then with a smaller amount of lings that we put inside that choke we can hopefully hold just long enough for our sunken to finish and then our advantage is on.
As you already pointed out there are hatch builds in ZvZ so if those work timing wise and they do moving the hatch could aswell.
The map needs a gas somewhat close to the choke and a choke to close of with your hatch.
You should just pull a Blizzard and re-release all your old videos with a remastered label.
This is a fantastic video. I have played Starcraft for many years but this video brought the game to a new light.
Holy shit, is he finally coming back?
"Not the best player in the world" - You won the International Cyber games back in the day, I mean man you where pretty fucking good in your/our (I say our cos i was playing back when you won) not pro but i was obsessed at the time) day.
Im expecting SC podcast Day9 again, pls
Nice to see a SC video. Welcome back!
HE'S BACK!
This is the best explanation I've ever heard of what is Brood War and why it's awesome.
Thank you for this Mr Plott :)
YESS STARCRAFT CONTENT!
Been waiting for this since patch 1.18 and SC:R was annonced,2 weeks ago at the I
Huh, you perfectly described why I love bw more than sc2. Sc2 always felt too "hand hold-y" to me. I love in bw the minimap is completely black and the feeling of exploring the unknown on an unfamiliar map. I love feeling in absolute control and knowing that my victory or defeat is completely up to my performance and control, but with sc2 a lot of that is subdued or completely removed. Fog of war is basically non-existent, and all of the expansions are just so unnaturally close together. Infinite select and such perfect pathing really just get rid of the nuances in control and positioning. It just doesn't feel right to me.
Day9 I've watched a lot of your shows. I've played SC Broodwar for roughly 10 years, started when I was 9. I bought SC2 when it came out, collectors edition, etc. and it just never did it for me. I hope you really enjoy the remaster, and I look forward to seeing lots of content created around it. Thanks for all your vids :)
Remember when day9 was casting Starcraft 2? Pepperidge farm remembers....
DAY9 on Starcraft is coming back!!! I can't wait!
"it's about how hard it is to be a commander"
I like to believe that the soldiers any commander has is not completely brain-dead though. Just sayin
I miss your SC discussions, this was awesome, and exactly how I feel about brood war and appreciate it's high skill cap, as well as its place in gaming history
Sc2 sucks because blizzard focused too much on Macroing instead of strategy
What are you talking about? That is strategy lol
Building hard counters for your deathball is not strategy.
Last time I watched Day9 was several years ago. I came back to see what he has to say about the new remaster and couldn't help notice his damn camera is still out of focus. I thought it had dropped to 480p...
Camera out of focus? What, do you want him to fix it, essentially dumbing it down for every casual viewer? The camera being out of focus makes the whole video stand out. It's an essential part of the viewing experience. If you want a perfectly set up camera, go watch some oth...
I can't go on. This sounds too believable :S...
I strongly disagree with your opinion.
Imagine the following situation:
-Sean, come out and solve this very long and difficult integral I've written down here.
-Okay mister RumpleHussler, let me just...
-And you cannot use pen or paper or calculator, you should do all the computations in your head!
-... But why?
-Because that will make this problem more skillful of course!
-But what does it have to do with mathematical analysis? It's not like I'll get better at solving integrals if I try to keep it all in my head. It would look cooler, but why would it mean that I'm better at it?
-You don't understand Sean, it's all about skiiiiiillll. And storing and computing giant formulas in you head is the part of this skiiiiiillll. So go on...
And don't get me wrong, I like first starcraft just like the other guy, but saying that horrible pathfinding, unit grouping and squad limit were the advantages of the game is like saying that that that having an abusive husband/wife that beats you everyday is great for you because it will make you more sustainable to pain in the future.
Some things just need to go away.
the analogy fails because the point of the professor's exercise is mental math skills. I'd find a mental math competition between people trying to solve something complex much more interesting than "pen and paper and calculator"
Nostalgia goggles are a powerful thing.
There was a lot of discussion/complaining about this when SC2 first came out. Besides more subtle mechanical differences, there were a good few things streamlined and made not-broken because 90% of the people who were going to buy a game would feel better playing with them. It had nothing to do with being 'casual' or playing an 'easier' game, but social networks still got non-stop complaints alluding to that.
Liking a game the way it was is all well and good. But it's important not to treat it like some god that can never be adjusted.
I always kinda wondered what would've happened if Blizzard was more prudent about patching games in the BW era. A lot of that stuff would've ended up fixed and improved over the years, and I don't think it would've made people stop playing.
anyway I'm just rambling now so I'm gonna go.
I think one of the BIG reasons why Starcraft 2 has the mechanics it has, is to be more welcoming and easier to the beginner/noob, that are picking up the game for the first time or watching someone else play it and thinking about picking it up.
I agree with Sean's sentiment "Don't make the game easier" and I somewhat agree with "Its Brood War's mechanics that make the game so incredible", but my arguement to this is that there is still plenty of things about Starcraft 2 that make it a great challenge (even with the simplified unit mechanics), I think that from these added/changed mechanics comes new/different strategies that can only be perfectly utilised by the best players in the world, I don't think it's necessarily a worse game it's just a whole new experience.
Sajam sent me. Good video.
I've been waiting so long for Day[9] to return to StarCraft. Can't wait for the remaster release. I hope it injects some long term popularity back into the game.
*Proceeds playing not starcraft...*
this is the best rant i've heard in a while since plague of gripes complained about dragon ball for about an hour, very well done, you got my every bit of attention and even tho i don't play that well it all made sense when you explained it
This sounds like an argument against Blizzard adding custom hotkeys to Brood War. If there is a circle of hell for bad commentators about video games then anyone who says that deserves to go there forever. The keys that shipped with Brood War vary by language/region and they all have absolutely no redeeming value. They do not raise the skill ceiling: they only raise the skill floor, and pretending that there isn't a high skill floor for StarCraft is nonsense.
However, if you aren't saying "no custom hotkeys" then you might have some valid points somewhere. I'm not sure Brood War should have the unit selection limit increased or get multiple building select. Things like that might be changing the game too much. But I think the new patches should absolutely make workers automatically start mining at the beginning of matches and we should absolutely be able to assign new workers to start mining by setting their rally point on some minerals. Some StarCraft II features like that are obvious no-brainers which had no business being left out of StarCraft I.
when they added the auto mining to starcraft 2 (it wasnt in vanilla) my first reaction was "really? people suck that bad that they cant do it themselves?" same thing im gonna say to you.... do you really suck so bad you need auto mining? starcraft 2 is so damn easy because of that, which is exactly why its competitive scene died hard. git gud scrub. i jumped on sc2 after like a year without even touching it, jumped to diamond in an afternoon. if i jumped into bw without a week of warming up first i would be wrecked by everyone. the reason people still like bw and never cared that much for sc2 is precisely because of those noob loving features that made stuff too easy and others that wrecked the balance. i mean its been years and several expansions and sc2 still isnt fucking balanced. bw is so balanced that a creative thinker (as day9 mentioned in the video) can totally swing things in their favor by that alone. in sc2 if the unit sucks, it sucks, no amount of creative strategy will help them win.
so stop talking about shit you obviously dont understand kid, and get good.
An RTS is ultimately a combat simulator on some level and I just can't imagine miners who are smart enough to mine all on their own but so dumb they need to be individually told to start. I don't think they could be both at the same time.
A big distinction that needs to be made between a lot of the mechanics in BW and hotkeys is that once you know all of your hotkeys it doesn't really matter where they are. The purpose of leaving in a lot of the mechanics is that those affect time, but once you know all the hotkeys by heart it's going to basically take the same amount of time to press the button no matter where it is meaning the game is still played in the same way. This is as opposed to your automining suggestion which would heavily effect this aspect of time management. Not having to select your workers to get them to mine would remove one thing which the player has to worry about, which means they will have more time to devote to other things, which will change how the game is played.
So excited that you're going back to your roots.
Haha he just explained what happened to Street Fighter 5 without even talking about it. Capcom lowered skill bar necessary for pulling high damage combos and now game is unbearable.
Day9's passion is super infectious!
Sajam sent me
I agree on every point. I did hope they would bring the SC2 style of campaign to the single player however. IMHO it would be so much more fun to have some kind of interfaceable area like the Hyperion during briefings and then the permanent upgrades plus triple normal units with bonus objectives per mission approach to the storyline. Multiplayer is fine as is.
All I want is for the ability to select more than 12 units, the rest can stay the same.
Select more than 12 units at brood war will brake the balance
exactly, thats why i agree with keeping it... now if they release a new game with that crap you can expect people to bash their doors with pitchforks and torches.
I love BW, but the sad truth nowdays is that very few will be willing enough to practice for months to be good at the game, when they can play any given MOBA and feel good about their play without any practice.
The point that mechanical requirements create strategies in their own right is a very good one, but I firmly believe players shouldn't have to fight the game's UI or engine in order to play. (Low unit selection limit, dragoon AI) A game with an easy-to-control engine is more accessible, and provided the game design is deep enough (don't quite think SC2 has reached this point) there can be just as much strategic depth, and said depth can also be more appreciated by viewers.
Did you miss the entire point of the video? Fighting the engine IS the game.
well as he already said, the clunkyness IS "the game". I believe we should respect that and respect the players that like it that way. Instead of trying to change the game in an effort to "fix" it to our personal liking, we should accept that BW isnt our cup of tea and find a game that suits our preferences better.
You can look at it this way: If an fps player doesnt like the way an mmorpg works, hes not gonna push for the game to be "fixed". Hes just gonna play quake.
I agree it shouldn't feel like you're fighting the game engine or UI to accomplish common tasks. It is the goal of every game to find the right interface for user-to-game-engine for a fun balance between the difficulty and capability of the player. Modern gaming use cooldowns, resource bars, and unlocks for this and older games had continues/lives, save points, and combos. These examples aren't perfect parallels but they do demonstrate that short of reading your mind every game will have barriers that keep you from performing perfectly.
That said, I think we all have to keep in mind that even if the barriers in Starcraft aren't to your (modern) tastes they have struck a balance that created a lot of enjoyment for a great many people.
I mean the thing is that it's sort of arbitrary which mechanics are "intended" and which ones come out of accidental flaws in the game. It's just that when people make new, flashy versions of old games, they tend to smooth over those unintended rough edges, but without adding anything new to keep the level of depth.
This is basically what you can see when you compare SC:BW to SC2, DotA to LoL, SF4 to SF5 and so on. All of them are examples of taking an older hard game and simply taking away hard things that were considered "non-essential" without adding anything new, thus making a less sustainable competitive game.
Like, I'm sure it could be done, somehow, but the problem is that it's actually super hard to purposefully create depth, since that would require you to basically fully understand how the mechanics of the game are gonna be used before you released it. And if you do, then you can bet that players are gonna discover the same things pretty quickly and exhaust the new things they can find in the game.
It's good to not have full control of the game you're making, basically. Add characters/units/mechanics because the idea seems cool or whatever rather than because you want to fulfill a specific template, and let people figure out their own uses.
Fighting the UI is the same as playing a game.
Without it, you are reading a virtual novel.
Decided to watch because I've only learned of Day9 since he started uploading dota content, and I've never played Starcraft before and wanted to hear an argument for it. Doesn't sound like my cup of tea personally , but this is a REALLY compelling rant as for why Brood War is so popular. I've always wondered why people were still playing SC1 instead of 2, and it's super interesting to hear a pro's thoughts on this stuff. Great stuff.