Troubleshooting Rotary Pump Timing & Speculation Why
Вставка
- Опубліковано 30 кві 2024
- Welcome back to Area Diesel Service!
As Curtis explains in this video, we just missed out on collaborating with Jim’s Automotive Machine Shop, Inc’s Allis Chalmer 210 saga! We appreciate fans that tagged us in their content!
Jim did reach out to us for some expert advice, and we gave our best guesses at what could have been the root cause that cascaded into the catastrophic failure the tractor experienced.
We felt it was best to get our resident rotary pump expert, Corey Gracey on camera and discuss the common ways that rotary pump timing can go awry during pump rebuilds.
You might recall Corey from past video rotary pump collab videos for other great content creators like;
@C_CEQUIPMENT • @AreaDieselService DB2...
@MortskeRepair • Can @AreaDieselService...
@WatchWesWork • Rotary Pump Rebuild fo... & • Neglected Forklift Fin...
We hope this video sheds some light on the project over on the #JAMSIONLINE channel, and can also help others experiencing possible pump timing issues and save some future engines!
Follow along “The Cursed $500 Allis Chalmers Two Ten Tractor” saga - • The Cursed $500 Allis ...
@JAMSIONLINEChannel - / @jamsionline
COMING SOON: We are also going to be offering up some sweet hats over on our #ADSSWAGSHOP! shop.areadieselservice.com//p...
CHAPTERS
0:00 Intro
0:41Jim’s Automotive Machine Shop, Inc / JAMSI Online
2:07 JAMSI $500 Allis Chalmers 210 Backstory
4:04 Engine Failure
6:25 JAMSI reached out to Area Diesel
6:45 Allis Chalmers 210 Engine Specifications
7:18 Which Injector Gasket is Right?
9:40 Twist - Are the Injectors Right?
10:24 Did the Pump Change?
12:15 Rotary Pump Expert Joins the Chat
13:07 Pump Functionality Walk-Through
17:18 Transfer Pump Explained
19:35 What Affects Pump Timing?
20:14 Drive Shaft & Rotor Alignment
22:42 Weight Cage to Rotor Alignment
27:21 On Engine Adjustment
24:06 Timing Wheel Verification for Right Timing
29:11 Clockwise / Counter Clockwise CAM Alignment
31:45 Speculating Root Cause
32:09 Piston (mis)Matching
34:51 Outro / Speculations
35:50 How to Contact ADS, Inc!
36:24 Collab with ADS, Inc!
36:45 ADS SWAG SHOP
Area Diesel Service's ultimate goal is to provide customers the most efficient solution to our customers problems and to have the reputation of being experts that are easy to work with and our customer's preferred one-stop diesel shop!
To contact Area Diesel Service:
Call: 1-800-637-2658
Email: parts@areadiesel.com
Online: www.areadieselservice.com and utilize our CHAT NOW feature!
Socials:
Facebook @areadieselservice ( / areadieselservice )
Instagram @areadiesel ( / areadiesel )
LinkedIn @Area-Diesel-Service-Inc ( / area-diesel-service-inc )
Twitter @areadieselsvc ( / areadieselsvc )
TikTok @areadieselservice ( / areadieselservice )
Area Diesel Service - / areadieselservice - Авто та транспорт
As one of the fellas that made the referral to Area Diesel Service, I can't tell you how thrilled I am to see what came of the collaboration. It is my opinion that running old iron is the way to go for every independent farmer unless you are independently wealthy (like Jeremy Clarkson). Too many new farmers make a bargain with the devil (the bank) and wind up losing everything - including the best years of their lives. This video series is a real service to every family farmer who wants to make a comfortable living and be debt free. BRAVO! 😊 I really appreciate the shout out to Jim's Automotive Machine Shop, Inc. another family run business doing top quality work like Area Diesel Service. Great example of how the UA-cam community can be used to bring together the best of the best while educating those who are searching for help!
As a retired engineer who has built hot rods for a hobby most of his life I really do appreciate the time and effort you folks put into your videos to educate us gas engine folks about how the diesel world works!
You gasser guys should learn about superior engins, lol
Worth a mention that nothing modern diesel works like this. Everything now is electronically fired injectors and the pump maintains pressure in a "common rail" that all injectors are supplied from.
@@kevinhillgrenjr2248 Maybe you could educate the F1 engins guys?
@@yz250a Ouch! Haha.
I’m not a diesel guy but I greatly appreciate you fine gentlemen reaching out to Jim’s Machine in order to lend a helping hand. If I ever come across a diesel job, you’ll have my business. Guaranteed!
As a heavy equipment mechanic, I have a basic understanding of how these pumps work, but your video not only helped clarify what is going on but what can go wrong when rebuilding them. It's great that you were able to show where mistakes could have been made without pointing fingers or bad-mouthing another shop.
I'm a heavy vehicle mechanic here in Australia,, i'm in the same boat you Tim,, basically know how they work, but these pumps are a specalised component and thus get sent out for repair or straight swap out with new, we dont pull them apart,, I really enjoy these types of vids , always learning
This really helps explain Jim's problem.
Because I’ve been following Jamsi, UA-cam gave me you guys. Fantastic video and explanation…I guess many of us aren’t diesel engine folks, so you did a great job of breaking it down for people with that level of knowledge. Thank You.
Yes sir and is from also Watching Wes Work that I first became aware of Area Diesel Service.
I am the one that made the reply in their original video about the injector spray pattern being out of the bowls in their pistons. I am a machinist and do a lot of work on pulling tractors. I help a guy with a pulling tractor and we have had pistons that melted. Usually its because of too aggressive timing. I had an oliver tractor with a hercules motor and a roosamaster pump. The timing on it was way too far advanced and it actually melted the pistons just pulling a hole shot up the road. Aluminum from the pistons actually came out the exhaust.
I made a few rotors for these roosamaster pumps that had .550" plungers. The problem was I could never keep them from seizing the rotor in the head and breaking off the drive shaft. We eventually went to p-pumps and have much better luck with the pumps and they run much better also.
Great video guys. That pump was a "black box" and it so interesting to see everything that goes into an injection pump working (or not working) properly. It's a real pity that you did not get the suspect pump.
So glad I sent my CAV pump and injector off my 1958 Lister LD1 to you guys last summer.
We're glad ya did too! Thanks for your support!
Me personally, if the other shop botched the pump (or believed to). I would have spent the money, and time, to send it to you guys to verify whether or not it was correct after the other shop had repair it again.
The first shop did *not* get a second bite at the apple. They sent it to a second shop that unfortunately jumped into rebuilding it at the first observed problem rather than doing a full diagnosis and test. Area Diesel was the third shop involved, but only after the suspect pump had been rebuilt.
@@Iamkcs2c glad the first shop was avoided
Wow, many variables for failure there on that pump. Great video.
I never would have thought an injector pump could have been this complicated.
Excellent explanation of a very complex system. I've run diesels forever but never realized how many ways just the pump could screw up.
You fellas are awesome. Paying it forward in a big way. Two thumbs up!
What an awesome explanation of these pumps. Great job fellas 👍
Good content. Great general explanation. Worked with these pumps in many applications over my career. Was always amazed at the engineering that developed this mechanical wonder that could adapt to be the heart of Diesel engines large and small, by changing a few internal parts. The Roosa Master injection pump should have a spot in the injection pump hall of fame. No ECM required! Thank you Hartford Machine Screw Co.
Very good lesson, thank you!
I sure hope the tractor is good now, I just watched them do a test run with it this morning and it’s sounding pretty good so far! Pulled his Disc like nothing at a good clip too!
Thanks for the very technical explanation. You really know your injection pumps.
Wow, thank you for doing this video. I’ve been watching Jim and the Cleaning guys saga with the tractor. I had no clue about how complex the injection system is. At least now I have an appreciation for it.
You bet!
I have a case 480b and it’s injector pump looks exactly like the one you just did. Last year I had some issues with mine and had it fixed twice. No problems since. Every time I see you guys I have to stop and listen because diesel mechanics now and in the navy were my thing and I guess still are. I really appreciate you guys and ask that you keep them coming! Thank you for the continued education.
I spent a long time doing continuous improvement projects in various production environments. One of the things we used to do was Poka Yoki, which means that things can only be put together one way to prevent mistakes. Having 5 opportunities to get things wrong for something as important as the injection timing, amounts to such poor design decisions as to beggar belief.
Excellent video, I am not a mechanic but I do learn from you guys. Hopefully Jim's tractor is fixed, We had AC tractors on the farm. Keep smilin.
Excellent video….thank you
That cutaway is awesome. Columbus diesel said dont try it blah blah blah. Well ive rebuilt 2 just fine in my livingroom and they work perfectly. 3rd one is getting torn down soon!
Fantastic vid!!!!
Here from Diesel Creek.
The question I asked on Jamsi channel but was never addressed was is the timing mark on an Allis pump marked with the 25deg they said the engine is supposed to have built inbto the pump so you time it at TDC or is the pump marked for start of injection and you time it to the engine at 25BTDC. My experience with DB pumps is they typically are scribed with the timing built in so you time on TDC.
OH! this is excellent! VERY nicely done. A huge thank you for presenting this.
You're very welcome!
Your expertise shines. I had no idea of how bad a pump could be put together. I came from Jamsi channel and your video is excellent. I would incline that their pump was assembled the wrong way and was out of time, really bad for them but happy their tractor runs great right now!
It reminded me a lot of how the SPICA Fuel Injection Pumps used on early injected Alfa Romeo cars work. I'll have nightmares tonight!
They posted another video, looks like it's running okay for now.
Followed the trail here. Subscribed because you bent the peak on the cap before you put it on lol. Great content too.👍
Great job with the video, I really enjoyed watching
Everything in the pump is perfect. We just put one part in backwards… but don’t worry it’s fine. It says more about the other pump shop that they didn’t insist on fixing the pump. Old engine was probably ok. It may have been a little warn but the old injection pump was probably mostly to blame.
With the Stanadyne IP, far advance timing will be very noisy. Late timing will definitely cause high exhaust gas temperature.
The damage Jim showed can conclusively be explained by excessive temperature. Which is from late timing which would require far greater metering valve opening for the load. This will rapidly burn the engine.
Excellent explanation of pump and nozzle. This why I do business with you guys.
Much appreciated!
Great video! Thank you so much for explaining what may have happened to Jim’s engine.
Thank you for the explanations of the possible different reasons for engine failure. Great recap on operation and potential problems.
My basic mechanics required us to understand a rotary and linear FIP, trying to remember the operation of both (also included a side draft and down draft carb), was pretty hard for a 17 year old having fun.
Stay safe out there!
Because of this video, I now know a lot more about mechanical injection pumps, and have an idea how many different ways a rebuild can go wrong. Unfortunately for Jim, the worst scenario happened where the engine runs, but destroys itself. I happen to own an old Massey Ferguson 275, which had a leaking injection pump. I put a gasket kit in myself, but didn't have to disassemble the whole thing (thankfully!) Currently counting my blessings ...
Thank you for posting!
Excellent explanation I was hoping that pump was going to be sent to you so you would make a video cause I had my own thoughts on it but guess you missed it. Im sure having a turbo with out piston coolers didn’t help the problem either. Great job Thank you
After 20 years as a Deere veterinarian that caught my eye as well. Also if an injection service sent us a pump 180 out…we’d be sending it right back.
The smoking gun in the pump? Looks like incorrect spray angle of nozzle. Of course the injector washer is thinner that was pulled out as it’s been compressed. I’ve seen hundreds of this situation and usually have 2 washers down the head.
Super the way this was broken down into possible scenarios. As said, only guess work now, but I think brilliantly explained. You guys should be teaching!!
Grtz from Belgium
I think Jim's pump was wrong . First clue 180 out I know your shop wouldn't let it go out the door that way. Second injector marks on pistons . So I think they took it apart and found it was them and oops don't tell just rebuild don't want to be liable. I also noticed it doesn't look like the same pump they sent in
Awesome video!!!! Great info. Thank you
Excellent video and explanations the host did a great job with this.
Well done
great breakdown...
Great explanation of those rotary pumps!
Dove into a handful of Bosch VEs, VPs for my cars(simply rust remedy for advance piston) But those standynes are a bigger animal entirely and done right
Excellent video 👍
Not pointing any fingers towards anyone, seeing how mistakes do happen, but as a rule , if you get a pump back from a shop and it doesn't time up, per factory specs, there is something wrong, don't use it.
I can attest that pump shops mess these pumps up. 25 years ago or so we had the same style pump on our JD350B crawler and it broke the input shaft, we were thinking our fuel got sugared, we had bad neighbors at the time.. anyhow, we got a new pump and injectors and installed it and it just never ran right, smoked a lot, hard starting, etc.. we ran it that way for years because we didn't know better.. also, the pump head bolts backed off and it was starting to leak.. years later I got into hot rodding diesels so I decided to take a closer look at it.. don't know if I did it right but i adjusted the screw on the timing plunger at the bottom of the pump and advanced it a bunch, I'd guess like 6 engine degrees and while I have no idea if it's in time according to spec, it's actually running well now.
Interesting to see the internals of these pumps, I'm familiar with the CAV/Delphi DPA pumps and the Bosch VE pumps, but never worked on the insides of these.. good to see all the places that are "gotcha's", which the other two pump styles don't seem to be as bad for that.. you can get the timing 180* off but that's about it.. There's also some other style rotary pumps, I can't remember the bosch model designation but they were on the International 574 and similar series tractors, very small, square looking pump, be interesting to see how they operate too
One question on injector nozzles: I have a set of nozzles that I've set the pop pressure on, and they don't open quickly so they'll stream rather than mist, I've carefully cleaned them, the spray pattern is actually good if you hit the pop tester quickly, The pintles move freely, I don't see any wear on the tip, though I guess there could be some on the seat and I can't see that, they do seal properly when seated, it's just the transition that's not good. it's a DLLA150S716, so SAC style tip.
Love the content and the collaboration. I would ask for better zoom into some of the details when pointing out parts in the pump. It would be nice to be able to see those timing marks and so forth in the pump. Thanks for sharing
I work at a shop that rebuilds these old school rotary pumps, a cut-away DB like that one would look awesome on our front counter!
Great Video
Thanks for a very in-depth discussion of how these pumps work. It only reinforces my opinion that I need an expert to do any repairs to a complicated system like this.
In the most recent video, JAMSI says the pump appeared to have been turned up 20% over stock- I'm wondering if the injectors are even correct for the engine. Depth certainly seems to be an issue, and flooding cylinders with even more fuel to wash the cylinders down/burn too hot seems bad, unless so over-fueled as to cool things down. Then there is the lead found in their fuel tank- how does that get there. The sample looked more like bad gas than good diesel...
Had a Cat Gen Set fuel pump rebuilt (years before I worked on it) that wouldn’t pull load. Eventually found it had the wrong spring in the governor. It makes a big difference using proper spec parts. A 3% spring for a constant speed engine is a huge difference when a 10% spring is installed. Sad part is that it was years before the problem was rectified.
Is there a computer animation showing the mechanical movements and interaction of governor, weights, engine speed etc.? That would be interesting to see if their were.
Very good video love those rotary pumps dB dg dm4!
Great Video!
of all the items you showed, the advance ring is likely to be the best guess.
if the tech was sure it was a clockwise spin pump he would have set it in the pump that way and tested it that way.
pump tests good.
at low speed the engine could have been set correct
Jimsi has enough practice to know how to set the timing and is likely to know the pump
was wrong on the other mistakes shown.
I would think the other problems would have kept the engine from running at all
or been hard to adjust to a slow speed.
As the engine sped up, the advance went the wrong way. real hard to see or know during running.
and thank you for the vid,
I watch both of you guys.
I’m leaning towards injector protrusion being the problem possibly washing the cylinder walls and not keeping combustion in the bowl!🇺🇸
I watch all of Jim's videos and I think they may have resurfaced the heads. Would that change the injector nozzle chamber gasket thickness needed for proper operation? I think the factory pistons and sleeve setup were wrong and the rings were too tight causing their problems. Then, would a faulty injection pump cause the cylinders to run too hot to cause the rings to expand that much to cause Jim's engine cylinder scarring? Sargent Shultz would say "very interesting". Great video guys, I'll be sending my pumps your way when needed.🤠
@Area Diesel Service. Would love to do a colab with you but sending my pump and injectors halfway around the world to you would be expensive sadly.
What about piston grading ( piston protrusion) any time parts are changed (crank block rod pistons )piston grading is also important
Awesome work guys!! What’s the hottest Roosa master you can build? Looking for a rowdy one for a 5020. Trying to make a 531 sing with out an A pump.
Erea Diesel I have question what do you think about adding 2 cycle oil to every tank of fuel to help lubricate these old mechanical pumps?
Any chance the pump timing and resulting increased cylinder pressure caused the excessive blow by experienced before they overhauled the engine?
How easy should an engine start with one of these pumps? I have a Farmall 504 that I rebuilt the engine when I bought it, and had the pump rebuilt. It is always hard to start at first start up. It could be 80 degrees outside and I still have to use glow plugs to get it to start. If the engine is hot, it will start easier. It's a D188 engine.
This guy is peak Eastern Colorado!
Those copper gaskets do compress as they seal.
Great video! Here's the million-dollar question, what happens if they forgot on the 2nd rebuild to time the pump to #6 and did normal timing procedures.
Then it will be injecting at TDC with exhaust closing, intake opening not compression stroke. Wont run.
Pump was setup to be correctly timed to cyl 1 on final build tho
Great explanation.
I am curious about the JAMSI engine failure also. What do you make of their AC engine only displaying the overheated pistons in a couple cylinders? From what I recalled of the tear down video some of the cylinders appeared to have no problem.
I have seen pulling tractors melt a piston and many times it only 1 cylinder
I don't know if Jim knows the history of the tractor. People have swapped parts from engine to engine that look the same but might not be the same. What if the pump isn't the one that is supposed to be on the engine? You addressed that you verify the application but did the other shop verify it? Pump timing could certainly change the spray pattern if the injector fires when the piston is lower in the chamber, either on the way up or down. That would cause a lack of power also. How much difference does the modern fuel make? Diesel fuel is almost a solvent now. In the past, any fuel spilled would leave a film around the filler neck but not anymore. Does the modern fuel alter the timing or spray pattern as it seems to be thinner and more volatile?
Diesel creek need a pump rebuilt for the Fiat Allison loader he has. It runs ruff
Yes sir it can happen quite often, when there is a bug put in a piece of equipment and it is carried along to the point to where we endure the massive engine failure that Jim's Automotive Machine incurred. It is unfortunate that they had to go through this and of course if this was indeed another customer's engine there would be all kinds of speculation of what went wrong and who may be responsible. the fact that this failure was in house and Jim and his son could have the opportunity to dissect the engine and see where there are differences as well as they were the ones who did any machine work and assembly of the engine put them miles ahead in this diagnosis. The fact that they had to time the engine 180 degrees out maybe should have raised a flag, and unfortunately the second shop they sent the pump to failed to make notice of any procedures not followed caused a delay in the chain of event towards finding what went wrong so that we do not repeat the results of the first incident. This is of course a lesson for us all to learn from and learning from our mistakes can be the biggest benefit.
There was an early DPA pump that had a lever to retard the timing for starting. Ted from down under
Hey O can certainly use some help with my DBG pump. Had overhaul by me and I still cannot get it to pump fuel. A new 1 piece weifht whell installed, meticulously cleaned all orifices carefully not scratching the bores of each. New vanes for lift pump. From my understanding if the shaft that drives the pump has a dot on the end of the shaft and the female paet has a dot those must align, only to ways it can go, 180° each way. I to am a content creator and would love to do the entire swriea of restoring this cool 1968 Case 580CK. Let me know. Thanks.
Injector pump autopsy. Sounds like a new field of investigation, given the cost and complexity of “modern” farm equipment.
to many if ands or what if but as someone who has been to rosa master school i can tell you there is a few shops that dont do reputiable work it is not a simple job r/r one of these the proper way takes time to do it wright and yes i have r.r in field in emergency but you are takeing a chance i,m looking at timing and or fuel mixture could it have had some gas in it who knows 64 dollar quiz but i believe area diesel knows therev beans
Honestly if it was my pump I'd have a second shop double check it instead of rolling the dice again especially since it wasn't diagnosed on disassembly.
They sent it to a second shop and avoided the original shop that rebuilt it. There was some miscommunication so when the second shop noticed it was 180 out they assumed they found the problem.
👍
I wish it wasn't so expensive to ship to USA and back to Africa lol.
Thank You ! Tech INFO Thank You !
Looks like they just compare the injection pressure to that guys blood pressure to make sure it's good 😂
I get this but part of me can’t get past the fact that everything in the pump is sequential…I.e. it would throw off all cylinders. This in not Königsegg freevalve. If injector pistons would have been bad I think they would have heard/felt it from startup? If they would have even got it started. I’m thinking injectors/nozzles/ shims washers, etc.
They decided all the cylinders were hot, discovered heat checked valves and discoloration but the ones that seized had a tighter ring gap, still in spec but on the tight end and that’s why those cylinders seized first
@@isaiahshaffer what did they say about the injectors? I can’t recall.
@@garny3766 I can’t say I recall that either, it could very well be a possibility something was off there, hopefully not because I don’t think they changed anything with them other than bigger/proper shims
how is Stanadyne Bankruptcy affecting parts, etc???
It's chapter 11. The sky is not falling.
What facility are the videos made?
Thanks for the question Kevin, this is the front counter of our Carlinville, Illinois branch - it is actually the original building from 1973 (though the total size of the building has expanded over the years), Illinois our headquarters and the main hub of our remanufacturing.
😊
Theres no way i would have pump that 180 out pump in it in the first place...back to a rebuiler immediatly!!
It looked the same as using ether on a diesel.
Guys, I'm pretty sure they didn't spill time their pump. Had they done that it likely would have been picked up as it would have dripped indicatively early. Lastly, I'm pretty sure they didn't spill time it this new build either. I love these guys and they do magnificent work, genuinely talented tradesman. Unfortunately though in this situation they aren't necessarily Diesel Mechanics and as such possibly wouldn't be aware of this procedure and the importance of it given how simple it is to do
Thankyou for sharing can you explain spill time?
Great explanation. Don't try this at home.
Bottom line - get an EXPERT to play with your equipment!
Great video guys Jim will be happy. I tell my family and friends I'm not working on their truck's engine because I don't work on diesel. They think it's the same as a gas engine. Both are Internal combustion engines that's all they share. Keep up the great work guys cheers from Canada 🍻.
I'm at 8:55, that is totally incorrect, for one the 55 thou gasket is likely compressed, then you have to account for the head being machined, this injector gasket to deck height should've been measured and corrected.