Have TRACTOR Pistons Changed In 50 YEARS?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 тра 2024
- Preorder "The Four Strokes" Mouse Pad/Desk Mat: epicdesk.shop/products/jamsi
Not to beat a dead horse... but we had to figure out whether we were right or not when we made the claim that our modern pistons may expand less than the factory pistons in Dad's failed Allis Chalmers 210 Tractor engine. Now we know!
Instagram: @jamsionline
Facebook: JAMSI Online
TikTok: @jamsionline
Websites: www.jamsionline.com
www.jimsmachineinc.com
For business inquires: Contact info@jamsionline.com
#allischalmers #automotivemachining #jimsautomotivemachineshop - Авто та транспорт
We've teamed up with Epic Desk on a limited edition custom mousepad/work mat inspired by JAMSI Online!
epicdesk.shop/products/jamsi
Be sure to check it out, and pre-order while you can! Pre-orders will last through August 13th, 2023 and once that closes, they'll never be available again!
what about balance? we've had issues at work with ipd pistons having inconsistent weights. destroyed several blocks. doubt it'll help solve the issues at hand but it might be good to know.
I have a question what about the weight of the piston does that account to anything in what you have done in the process hi 👋 from # YSW 🇨🇦 where I follow you 💯 both !!
Preordered mine! Thanks
For every one of your informative videos.
😅j
The only thing 2 machinists can agree on is... The 3rd machinist is doing it wrong
Oh man. That is so right.
When a young grad student, I was in the engineering school machine shop and one machinist was fussing to me that another machinist was stupid to drill a large hole by slowly stepping up in drill size, as if I knew any better (no undergrad courses on machining nor shop). He said all you needed was a tiny pilot hole and the final drill would follow it straight down. Perhaps the hole ends up more centered that way, but I step up drill bits gradually at home. Maybe I could get by with a two-fer if my drill bits were ground perfectly but I just eyeball them on a grinding wheel when re-sharpening. At least they had a quality drill press which secured the parts, but drilling a hole on a milling machine or lathe would likely hold center better.
@@williamgrissom9022 whatever gets the job done. At home you can do it however you want!
🤣
It's obvious that you've been in a shop that's had at least three Machinists ! 😂
Love how you have such a respectful, professional relationship with your father. You both share such a love for what you do - and it shows in the interaction between you.
I love the fact that you invested the time to investigate this clearance issue further. I was hoping you would heat the pistons up to see the potential expansion differences and you did.
Nice job to you both.
Hey guys , you do incredible work. Was wondering if we could get a little update on how your Allis Chalmers engine rebuild is working out?
Ran great this spring! Won't run again until this fall maybe or next spring.
@@JAMSIONLINEi have a question to ask you both is there any way to weight the piston when you are doing the measurements so you could have a accurate reading yes or no hi from # YSW 🇨🇦 I love following you beacuse you open up many things I never knew about respect back to you both.
Incorrect piston sidewall clearance does not crack valves if they never make contact. Back to combustion temps and injection timing.
Yup and a turbocharged non after cooled non piston cooled engine can be fine but it has much less margin for error on heat.
Great video. Just a recommendation when comparing and displaying data, graph it in a simple plot. Makes it a lot easier for people to see the differences.
I loved the banter. Always joking, with a bit of truth. Makes me think of my father. I love your videos, both for the information, and for the interactions and little stories.
Thanks for watching!
Firstly i really enjoy watching your first rate machining your quality of work is second to none.an overfueling injector pump will send cylinder temps skyrocketing only "race spec"ring end gap could have survived such an event.
Well done. Old guy here. Have built a few engines in my time. I can say that ring gap kills more engines than anything other than bad lifters with flat tappet cams ... 🙃
That was interesting - to measure is to know and cutting those pistons apart supplied a lot of useful information to your process ... and it was cool to see how they were made!
The one thing I would like to see is the difference in the ring groove depth diameter between the Old Old and the New Old pistons.
Nice job..... I'm 76 retired from truck mech.... Love your videos..... You should be a proud dad.....
Glad you mentioned that the tractor is working well now hopefully it will last you guys a long time thanks for taking the time to do all this very detailed and informative stuff
Science is always fun (for some of us). You mentioned that the old piston had TIn coating. As a retired machinist (CNC and Manual) I have had considerable experience wi9th this coating as well as others. The primary reason for TIn coating is lubrication. It's applied to carbide for that very reason not to have chip buildup on the cutting edge. I could have influence on the heat variation also on the wearing capabilities. Good video gentleman. Keep on smiling.
Tin, as in Sn - tin metal - VS “TiN, i.e. *Titanium Nitride?*
The first is sort of a silvery color, vis Titanium Nitride (on, say, TPG222 inserts - what some of my lathe tooling takes) have more of a gold color.
They most certainly were not coating tractor pistons with TiN in the 70's.
He means actual elemental tin (Sn), as in tin cans.
Wonderful!
Pardon me for being so stupid.
OK, let's put this in perspective, first I did not clarify nor state that, that was used in the 50's second I only suggested the purpose of Tin coating not anything to do with Alais tractors. Gees, give it a rest, please.
Nice addition to the tool crib! Cleaning guy has got to get that cutting saw cleaned out ! Great information guys!👍
Love the way you take things apart and actually find out the whys and how comes
TO COOL
Very nicely done. Enjoyed how thorough you both were. 👍
Watching y'all work and listening to y'all talk I had the realization that y'all and all the other people like you are the salt of the earth and what has made this country great and why it's worth fighting for.
You guys work great together never loose that with your pops I lost mine in 2006 it think of him every day stay safe my friends
Excellent detective work guys. I REALLY like that piston measuring tool.
Any science is good science. Thanks for taking the time to do this and get some real answers about what might be happening to the owners of these tractors.
This is quickly becoming my favorite channel on YT. Excellent work!
Love how you guys present - thank you.
Interesting research . Time well spent . Thanks for sharing !
Absolutely fascinating. Love your channel guys. Keep them coming!
Thanks for the video it was interesting to see. I'm curious about the piston grooves concentricity because together with the piston rings they will position the piston in the liner. For big ship engines we call that for scuffing when the piston grind against the liner wall. The piston rings are also coated with a soft metal compound that will wear up.
During COVID we had a terrible time with extrusion. The extruder turned up the feed rate which caused warpage, I suspect changed the alloy because the metal prices went up which caused shrinkage and then blamed our dies. Then we had the issues of stainless inserts that were out of spec. It just seems to me with all the precision instruments out there now you just cannot buy any decent parts anymore and make things go together like they used to.
I went to an estate sale and bought a couple Lycoming IO-360 aircraft engines and they came with boxes and boxes of spare parts. One of the boxes contained a MC-1 Measuring Center Base Kit
That's a hell of a grab! Probably wasn't a cheap estate sale pickup though. Hope the engines run well, and are going to good use keeping someone aloft!
@@Awkward_Fox Im rebuilding one and donated the other to the local A&P school at the community college.
Great video guys.
Nice evaluation and comparisons.
Thanks for sharing. 👍
I believe the extra thickness on the piston is so the slug can be machined to different bore sizes.
As Schultz said - very interesting. The real big deal is a clean empty work bench in the shop - that took some work. Thanks for the video's.
Awesome video , was thinking about this engine issue again the other day . Glad it’s now sorted .
As a farmer and shade tree mechanic, i am in all with the skill both of you possess.
As someone who uses these brand of parts in other engine makes, I am glad you sectioned the pistons, was neat to see. Does any other companys offer kits for 426 Allis's other than Reliance?
I watch cei and stumbled on to you guys from him? I love machining it's so cool! And as a mechanic this makes me smile!
Awesome in detail to get to the bottom of the problem.
The main reason there's a steel or cast iron ring for the upper piston ring is to make a thermal barrier to it, to avoid or reduce cooking, and it's also useful to keep the groove shape to the right dimensions, to allow the ring to be pressurised by combustion gasses.
Also, if the ring has a conical section, meant to "hammer" slightly in the groove to clean off combustion residues, the hard groove surface allow it to last a lot longer.
The small dimensions of the embedded ring can't make any difference to thermal expansion of the aluminium, it is going to stretch when hot!
That is some hot looking weather… as long as it’s not humid though. As a cold chisel aficionado nice seeing a set like that
10:50 that eagle is bad ass!!! Such a beautiful bird of prey! In Phoenix, we have a lot of Red Tail Hawks, Owls, Vulchures, and very fsr out, eagles. But you rearly will see an eagle ever. They have sanctuary areas at the lakes that are out in the middle of the desert.
But i live in a 3 year old house i had built out in the edge of the city in the middle of the desert. My digs, i had to build a fenced in cage from air and land. The birds if prey around here is insane and owls, natures most perfect killer, get pets all the time. Hawks do too. But so different from living in the middle of the city. We also have bobcats, just caught one with kittens in my front yard the other night on cam, and big packs of coyotes. We then also have wild donkeys all over that walk down our streets.
Your dad is a legend! And your dad is making you one... learn all you can! Worked with my dad and learned all I could from him.. then he had a stroke and can't do what he loved to cars the same pace...
Everything goes into the tolerance. The internal changes could also affect expansion and the reason they made the changes. As usual your assumptions are spot on with what you find.
Any time you change from OEM there are changes. Even new OEM parts can have changes based on updates in everything.
I agree with your findings. Ring gap is my usual suspect when I have that kind of engine failure.
Shout out from the allis chalmers tractor forums. I enjoy reading about the 210 stuff but i only have a WD so I’m just a reader but it is all interesting. Nice video.
Love listening to this stuff very relaxing to me.
I have to say even though i know nothing about machine shops, I'm mesmerized watching your videos! I'm curious, how long does it take to machine a V8 block that just needs boring for oversized pistons?
I loved his comment about I've been telling you the whole time since you started this UA-cam thing we're wasting time.
Very funny I laughed.
Nice job...i think we dont take enough time to make some analisys of product or failure...but one thing is missing in your test...the thermal change on the cylinder sleeve itself
Keep the good work
You mentioned the tin coating on the old pistons. Goldsmithterry in his comment also pointed out the lubrication of tin. It's like older USA made light bulbs. Tin and brass bulbs screw into their sockets easily. Modern Chinese made bulbs made from melded down Chevy's and Ford's will gall often times. Could that tin coating be important on the clearance issues?
Where were you guys 40 years ago? I enjoy watching you now. You two make a great team
Im curious where you guys get your tolerance numbers from for your builds with the newer materials. Some are not so easy to find. I do some light rebuilds (more so assembly after machining) and want to get it to some more of the building and machining in house. I've done machine work in the past and really enjoyed it.
Super interesting,
Great home brew science.
Learning stuff
Pretty smart for custodial staff 😄
Cheers
Safety squints work! OSHA approved!! I was squinting once trying to make a crush sleeve out of some junk metal for a gate wheel. Didn't get anything in my eyes....my chest caught on fire though with all the sparks but you didn't hear that from me!
Interesting
Back during the energy crunch the Government paid GM to do a study on when to replace parts for fuel savings. On the wheel bearing back then you repacked every brake change and inspected. The result were all over the place and rerunning the test decided to make half worn out bearing to speed up the test but that kind of tolerances could only be done in the lab. And much to their surprise they hadn't wore out by the end of the test. And after retooling with tighter tolerances half wore out no break in wheel bearing went from if your lucky 20,000 miles to 50,000.
Bearing was the main fault in alternators but with the new bearing was still having problems. To tight of a belt puts to much side load and the answer the serpentine belt.
All thanks to a small Gov study on fuel saving.
Great work. You should try and reach out to Lake Speed Jr at Total Seal Rings and maybe do an online consult. He really knows his stuff when it comes to pistons and especially end gaps on rings and how that affects engine performance.
this content is both entertaining and educational. Thanks for posting
😂
You two are great, and you have a wonderful wife / mother. Of course she also recognizes that the cleaning guy makes the pistons spotless before they are placed in her freezer or oven...
That QMP measuring system is awesome
Edelbrock said aluminum went up 40% crazy. Great video guys keep up the great content cheers from Canada 🍻
Hi great job! Are you assuming the wet sleeve expands at the same rate as the piston?
Love these sorts of videos!
A very informative video it was explained well🎉
cylinder wash + tight rings + extra heat sounds like a winning combo
Really enjoy your videos! I'm curious, how wear is there in ID of cylinder in ring travel area of cylinder? IE, were could you have honed original sleeves and just installed new rings instead of using all new?
When I built my 360 Dodge magnum I used 4" diameter Hypereutectic pistons with a piston to bore clearance of .0015-.002. I have had no issues with the engine and it burns no oil. So I do not believe you had a clearance issue but every engine is different. Was your bore too smooth so oil retention was low? Its hard to get an answer on what hone grit to use but it appears for cast rings its between a 180 and 220 grit. My manual for my John Deer 3 cylinder Yanmar specifically called for a 180 grit ball hone which I used and had no issue with it.
as an old pirta band user, Im in live with your saw
In the 70's my late father worked for Champion graders, they had a situation where the new champion pistons where failing fast, my father worked out that the new pistons were heavier due to more mass, this retained heat more and expanded more are a result and resulted in slowballing of premature failing (champion themselves repeated that clearances were checked and are fine so thats not the issue) , downtime with million dollar mining equipment is never good so my dad went with his gut and drilled the pistons and reduced the mass, this fixed the issue and as a family we got a free holiday as thanks.
Great 4 stroke artwork . I would frame it in my auto repair shop if it was in poster form .
2 things that also require investigating are the original engine oil viscosity ( oil pressure ) and oil pump flow output , if you used a thinner oil then that might also be the part culprit. the oil pump gears may have been spaced larger to account for the thicker engine oil used during those periods to maintain correct oil pressure ( upwards or over 75 psi oil pressure was correct for engines )
i remember an old flathead ford V 8 showing 94 psi on the pressure gauge
If you watch the teardown videos, the bearings looked like new. And even the old bearings looked pretty good for an old machine. They were getting plenty of pressure. Piston skirts are more or less splash-lubricated on this engine and if anything, a lower-viscosity oil would reach those parts sooner and lubricate as well, assuming sufficient film strength. The original engine probably called for 10W30 or 15W40 and those oils are still made and used widely. A 10W30 is the same viscosity today as it ever was. I don't quite remember what they were using for oil, but there's no indication they used anything lighter. And I haven't used a 5W40 or 0W40 synthetic in these, but again, even if they did, the bearings look beautiful and the rings and pistons should have been happy. I've seen engines that were diluted so bad there really was an oil pressure problem (injector pump that was leaking into the crankcase and washed the oil out through the breather). Bearings were spun; cylinders looked surprisingly good.
There was also a lot of evidence that the injector pump was faulty and causing excessive heat in (some of) the combustion chambers. Supposedly the injector pump was overhauled while the engine was rebuilt, but the engine was rebuilt because of issues that pointed to a bad injector pump (cracked rings, scored pistons). And apparently after the overhaul the timing was off 180 degrees. I would guess that more than timing, the matter was due to cross-leaks in the pump that the overhaul didn't address - otherwise, why were some of the cylinders still in good shape while 3 of them were cooked? But they didn't get all the data they asked for from the company that rebuilt the injection pump the second time.
@@mtut that comment brings back a memory of a video i watched on youtube around 2009 , where a machinist was questioned why some farmers were removing the thermostats from their tractor engines , his reply was , tractor engines run hot ,sometimes very hot ,resulting in blown head gaskets ,removing the thermostats from the engines allows the engine coolant to be constantly cooled ,thus resulting in lower engine operating temperatures and less head gasket failures
That eagle was so majestic, valiantly gaurding the electricity
Happy birthday to the big guy!🎉🎉🎉
Great methodical fault analysis even though that was not the reason for the failure and it at least ruled it out and points to the ring gap theory. If the pump was causing over fueling and the crown of the piston was running hotter than it should have then the ring gap may be the answer. Another reason manufacturers could be running less clearance between pistons and bores is the improvement in lubricants as well as other improvements in metals and machining.
nice job looking at the geometry of the piston (skirt diameter across temperatures) . I did see a difference in the geometry (more / less material) of the skirt below the pin boss. this may make a difference in the thermal growth in that area and the stiffness of the skirt below the pin boss. the question of material type is still unknown. there are a lot of different alloys of aluminum.
Expansion will likely be less in a harder alloy.
Man, this was so machine nerd, and so good.
I see the cleaning guy is rockin a new haircut! Ya look better than when you're trying ta look like Chewbacca! LOL!😄
I really enjoy your videos, i always learn something from them.. keep them coming! 🙂👍
GOOD JOB testing this and learning. BUT..... you need to check the cam grind and taper of the piston skirt to see the full picture. The cam ground skirt is a bit like a leaf spring, starting with narrow contact in the middle cold, as the piston heats up teh contact gets wider....which more contact COOLS the piston and it's almost like it regulates itself. You might already know... "four corner scuffing" is what happens when the springyness of the skirt runs out of travel. Far as Silicon content, the amount that the aluminum expands with heat is negligible difference one alloy to another, but the true difference is how much the piston MOVES heat down to the skirt, and how tight it CAN get before scuffing. LOW silicon pistons move heat fast and have POOR scuff resistance, so the skirt will expand more because it gets hotter, and will need to be looser because the material is more prone to scuffing. While a hyper piston the skirt will stay cooler, and can run tighter without scuffing.
I'd love to talk with you guys sometime, tho I called once and did get a kick out of your answering service, which is fine, free time these days is a rare thing, but maybe in the future.
well done guys,a good explanation i feel.
Honestly, that you posted the video, regardless of the outcome, shows your dedication to the dissemination relevant information.
The shape of the lower end of the Piston where the older one is square and the newer one is rounded. that rounding is physically stronger than the sharp right angle and eliminates stressing fail point in the Piston skirt.
Is this show about when I mentioned that forged pistons are different than cast pistons? I like the show. Cutting will not show the difference. You have to heat them and see the expansion properties. I commented prematurely. Awesome study. You guys are doing great stuff.
Did you check the heat and frozen measurements? on the sleve
I like the way yall do things. Is there a difference in the cylinder liner materials? I'm curious now fellas
I am really surprised you did not compare the cam grind on the shirts of old and new piston.
You can bolt a plate of material using the rear guide holes and use the saw vertical.
It would be informative to know the results of the liner bore specs after installation with the dial bore gage....
"Thats what ive been telling you since you started this youtube thing"....cleaning guy is a savage 😂
Lol and he's not joking even hahahaha
@@JAMSIONLINE your thousands of followers say otherwise! Keep up the good work guys
News flash, the manufacturer would prefer that the parts you buy from them work. Why would they give you incorrect data? Secondly, if you were building a plutonium powered time machine, some schmuck on the internet would be telling you that the one he built worked perfectly and yours was crap. Half the people speculating about your project have never rebuilt their lawn mower. Keep up the good work guys, I love your content.
Lol exactly my thoughts
Great science project, searching for root cause. Thanks for taking this effort, which takes much more planning that it appears. Similar is done in high-dollar aerospace failure reviews. Most automotive work is just trial and error (keep failing until you don't) and speculation. Not sure I follow that a 1 mil difference in expansion, out of 11 mil is significant. That is like a spot of dust you wipe off vernier calipers to check zero. Even if the aftermarket piston maker gives you a spec for clearance to the cylinder wall, would they also give you a spec on piston ring gap? Seems they wouldn't want to take that on unless they also made the rings. That spec seems like your main culprit. If the rings jammed in the cylinder, as suspected, could that account for the scuffing seen on the piston skirts? Seems rings would need to get significantly hotter than the cylinder walls for the gap to close. Since both are steel, they should expand in size equally, if they stay close to the same temperature.
Lack of information on parts is frustrating. There are numerous products on Amazon where the critical details must be related via Q & A by customers and reviewers. You'd think the sellers and/or manufacturers would be competent enough to give basic information, and at least review their product pages to see what potential customers are asking about it. Often the sizes they list are the just size of the box it comes in (whoopie). Especially true for products Made in China, where English translations are minimal and confused, often the same product sold under many different brand names. Even name-brand auto parts are becoming like that. Especially critical in engine parts, like here.
Re quality, I installed a name brand intake manifold gasket once during a head swap, then when searching for a vacuum leak 10 years later I found the gasket had hardened and broken apart, leaving big gaps open. The engine was idling way too fast, even with the IAC port blocked. Finally found it by flowing water around all interfaces until it slowed down. The gasket was in a hard place to see since the intake manifold curves up over the interface to the block. Seems like they cut the gasket out of black paper.
Absolutely 💯 you can't go off old factory specs ,when using new manufactured parts myself I learned that expensive lesson aswell especially when building David brown engines
David brown, didn't they manufacturer some of those funny two wheel tractors at one point? I know there was a few companies that did, like gravely being the one I see most commonly. Probably not what you're working on, but just curious.
@@goosenotmaverick1156 David brown was with case tractor and dozer division and possibly with other companies
@@zvondiesel gotcha. The ones I'm thinking of I can't remember the name, so I'm trying to figure it out. Obviously not David brown then lol neat!
I've been working on my neighbors Ford 6600 for a few years basically restoring it one bit at a time. It's been a buggar, I'm a car guy not a tractor guy, but it's been fun too. We started at the front and are working our way back lol front end (wear pins, bushing, wheel bearings, etc), engine (entire rebuild), new clutch kit, trans (all bearings and worn parts replaced), steering system (pump, gear, lines, linkages), pto clutch, hydro pump, spool valves for remotes. Eventually I'll have to dig into the brakes but for right now that's all functioning properly and adjusted.
Dude has spent astronomical amounts of money thus far.
Great in depth video, just not sure the data collected at around 300 degrees really tells the tale. Considering, a diesel piston normally operates at 800 + degrees. Would have loved to see the average expansion rate at temps closer to that range, but, it's certainly understandable that heating a piston to a consistant 800 degrees in an average machine shop would be an extremely difficult task to perform, indeed. Very informative nonetheless!
So does ra finish on the cylenders going to play a part on clearance? Oil retention?
For lube and removing temp from piston skirt?
It's been a proven fact that today we use better materials than what was used say, 20-100 yrs ago. Great video. cheers :)
Love the series and not trying to argue but two things changed. Maybe the most significant was the fuel pump rebuilt 100% correct (and I did watch the assessment by the consulting injection pump people). The other of course is the ring gap. And its possible that the one issue and call the ring gap an aspect, combined to push the cylinder wall into overheat. Will never know of course and the right things were done, get the injection pump 100% correct and give a bit of more wiggle for the rings.
THAT WAS VEREY INTERESTING THANKS BOYS
Glad to hear that the allis is running good now. I followed that thread on the allis chalmers forum.
Seems like they were kind of tough on you
I got sideways with “Dr. Allis” when I disagreed with him on a couple of things via email and he took it personal 🤣
@JAMSIONLINE Dr Allis knows probably as much about Allis as anyone, but I sure do get disappointed when he gets like that with folks like you
This was a great video and like how you researched the pistons. You came to a conclusion. It would have been nice to be able to look at the fuel pump and find out what could have been wrong with it. Can I get some credit hours for this lecture?
You sure can, but we’re not an accredited school so it won’t transfer anywhere 😂
@@JAMSIONLINE Oh darn but still worth watching. Thanks for responding.
I would love to send you all my mildly built olds 350 and see a video of y’all going threw it. I could do it but it would take me way longer and I need more tooling to do what I’m wanting. I have the original blueprint sheets from je😢mmm Phillips & Wilkerson racing built the motor.
Lift 490. /520. @224/234. At 107 lobe separation I wanting higher compression pistons. The a good aluminum heads and a
Full solid roller cam and lifters for it.
Wish I could find a dieseil block to use and add boost to it.
The elimination of the Zinc from the oil is probably a greater factor than the growth factor of the piston material, or the rings butting.
Thats interesting.
I wonder if the block side of the tolerance window has a larger variance.
But as you said, the manufacturing & quality control changes of the last 50 years are significant; but not something that can be tested adequately; you'd need a hundred or so samples for a limited test.
Yes but as to yesterday's quality today we would think parts should have better quality as to 50 yrs ago I have a 1957 D8 caterpillar that has cast ring lands and no tin coating was able to reuse all the Pistons with new wet sleeves new rings
@@andrewklahold2880 exactly why I said tolerance & not quality.
I know full well that for everything we do better today, there a way it's done worse because that's cheaper.
Your example is the direct opposite of what Jamsi is dealing with, but the irony is that single examples never give the full picture.
Your machine could have been from a mob W better quality control & tighter tolerances, or it could be the one best motor they ever build, at the whims of random chance.
Jamsi could be the Worst for their make of tractor (tho they mentioned at least 1 other, so..), or a bad fluke.
There's a Lot of maintenance issues that come back to cumulative tolerance interactions, that are simply troubleshot until the thing works Well Enough.
We both know that D8 could never have been built to be that perfect after all that time; no more than the tractor was build to be a first of its kind failure.
That's just not possible without large numbers of units for random chance to work with.