The September Six and the Struggle for the Soul of Mormonism w/ Dr. Sara Patterson | Ep. 1824
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Book Club is back with Rebecca Bibliotheca! Joining her and John Dehlin is Dr. Sarah Patterson as she introduces us to her book on the “September Six”, a group of scholars and feminists excommunicated from the LDS Church in September 1993.
The interview examines the impact of excommunications, the power of the Church's stance on purity, and the consequences for members. Sarah also highlights the importance of remembering those who paved the way for open conversations and change within the Church.
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
Buy the book: www.amazon.com/September-Six-...
Chapters
00:00:00 Introduction
00:08:30 Names of the September Six
00:14:45 Harold B. Lee and Correlation Committee
00:20:50 Purity and the Correlation Department
00:29:00 Avraham Gileadi
00:34:15 Eugene England
00:39:30 Emphasis on Revelation over Reason
00:41:45 Familial Purity - Gender expectations
00:46:00 Sonia Johnson
00:52:35 LGBTQ rights
00:58:00 Bodily Purity
01:03:30 Excommunication: a powerful tool
01:06:50 Threats to the Church: gays, feminists & intellectuals
01:10:40 Famous Boyd K. Packer talk- gays, feminist, and intellectuals
01:15:25 Cecilia Konchar Farr
01:23:20 Maxine Hanks’ book
01:32:00 Listing each of the Six and their offenses
01:32:20 Avraham Gileadi
01:36:49 Lynn Whitesides
01:41:34 Maxine Hanks
01:45:04 Paul Toscano
01:49:50 Lavina Fielding Anderson
01:54:54 D. Michael Quinn
02:01:00 What started the September Six?
02:05:50 The Aftermath of the September Six, it was successful from the Church’s perspective
02:15:44 The Impact on the members because of September Six
___________________
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I left the church in 1989. I resigned. I wanted to resign of my own accord because I wanted to control the narrative and not let the church control it. Grant Palmer was a friend soon after I got off my mission. I appreciate the lessons he taught and his example. I knew Paul Toscano at BYU. And even though I now say I would have been better served to have gone to a California State University rather than BYU none-the-less I did get a good education at BYU and was taught to think critically. When I left BYU I was an emotional wreck because I was not married and I started thinking critically about the church until I finally left. No regrets for having left. Soon thereafter I became Catholic. I love my Catholic faith. I've been Catholic for 30 years. No regrets for having left the LDS Church. I only regret having joined it in the first place but I was only 16. What does a sixteen-year-old know?
Congratulations for regaining your freedom from the Mormon Cult Church
I joined the Mormon church at 19 after moving to Provo and just living in the Mormon sphere, my previously existing faith was destroyed in less than 3 years. I spent a decade or so as an atheist, but ended up marrying a Catholic. She always wanted me to go to church with her but never forced me to do anything, and now at the end of March I will have been a Catholic for a year.
Avraham Gigliotti was my Gospel doctrine teacher in Las Vegas after he was reinstated. The excommunication caused him to lose his family. He was devastated. He just wanted to be back in good graces. He was such a humble man. Eventually they released him because he knew too much to teach gospel doctrine. But he was the best gospel doctrine teacher ever. He is an amazing human.
"He knew too much to teach gospel doctrine". Imagine the cognitive dissonance for that to make sense in a world without enough qualified educators!!! The truth isn't afraid of the data. If your dogma is, the problem isn't the truth. Intellectual freedom is a human right...
I tried to listen to his videos online etc. His voice was not strong, loud or clear. Could not get through them. I had to buy his books. My friend bought his series he wrote Bible revelation series for a thousand dollars or so. Could he have stayed in the church to make money off members? Not a fan.... The videos are amazing but the price is ridiculous.... He's a very educated man when it comes to the Bible.
He knew too much... Yep. It's a MANmade cult. That's all..I'm so sad about so many people hurting and families losing each other because of it
I was excommunicated in 1973 because I was a returned missionary and a lesbian. I was also kicked out of BYU. I managed, in time, to walk away emotionally as well. I’ve lived a fortunate life and have served as an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ for the past dozen years. I have listened to a few of these podcast and struggled with them. I guess they seemed so sad. This podcast was absolutely brilliant. I learned so much. I’m going to check out some of the books mentioned. Thank you so much!
Mw too, returned 1980 excommunicated 1984
Being a lesbian as a believer was a complex, difficult but ultimately freeing experience. If society and my church were wrong about my experience of my sexuality what else were they wrong about. I came out to myself in the 1970s and led to a enormous growth experience
@@lizmunro6881biggest wrong: "we are the only true church" they and how many others?
I was excommunicated in ~1978-79 at age 16 for preaching the gospel of Gloria Steinem. This was in small town Southern Alberta. No harm, no foul (I was already unpopular, so...) -- I never truly believed, joined because all my friends were getting baptized so what is an 8 year old to do? My Mom raised me to understand that there are many paths to the Divine. She taught me about all belief systems -- I think it became important to her when we landed back in her home town in the early 1960s after she was widowed at age 42 with 4 kids at home where I was the only one under 8. I would be 7th generation so... Anyway, I remember Sonja Johnson and that story. Gotta say that the water that I swam in growing up -- it gave me a fascination and love of comparative religion and anthropology.
Thoughtful response. I enjoyed this episode. It blew me away!
I’m from around there…..big Bible Belt!
I’m a never Mormon from Edmonton. I find these stories to be interesting to hear. Always wondered if the Canadian side of it all was different from the US.
I’d be interested in a podcast comparing USA and Canadian Mormons.
Great mother!!
I would be more inclined to be a "faithful" believer if the church would be as honest as you are expected to be. I have always had a problem with tithing since I was little watching my single mother raise 5 children on minimum wage working two jobs to support us and paying tithing first and see our cupboards empty and my moms bank account always in the negative.
I want to hear some more of that story.
I have many memories about my childhood and my mom!
Maybe John would like to have me on the show for my story 😆
Exactly
THANK YOU so so very much for your podcast, John. I held off on listening to entire episodes for a while there. Not even sure why. I eventually started listening all the way through and they've instantly become so so essential to my healing. I've been able to begin letting go of things that I thought would stay with me for a lifetime. I'm shocked at how fast I've been able to start letting go of the shame, guilt, and the inadequacy that was ingrained in my soul from birth. I'm finally learning that I wasn't the bad and unworthy person that I was made to feel like.
I am so glad my children will not grow up with that. That was my first reason to leave the church before I even learned that the whole thing was a fraud and a fake. I still believed the teachings and told myself I will gladly take the fall for not raising them in the church when I got to the spirit world. I didn't want them to have the constant shame and guilt that I had. I have so much relief now after learning the truth. I just wish I could share it with my parents 😔
It's so enlightening how so much of how the church operates today makes so much more sense the more I learn about history - as in, the last 70-ish years, rather than just learning about EARLY church history. Sometimes I think that modern revelation and even new institutions within the church are introduced as appearing from the aether, "inspired" etc., but even just a cursory look into what was happening politically and socially at the respective points in history more than explains why the church did what it did, made the changes it did, and is still making the changes it's making now.
I'm a twenty-something and have only heard whispers about the September Six until I found this channel. I truly hope that this aspect of church history and more like it aren't buried by the church completely or forgotten by my generation and those after it. Thank you for the great episode!
I went through the Manti Temple in 1974. I remember an anonimas "sister" anointing my body even touching my breasts through a curtain. Blessing me!!!. I cried all day. I felt violated. And my non member mother wasn't at my Temple Wedding because she "wasn't worthy"!!! I thought NOT worthy? This woman had me when she was 16! She was married, legally. Careful to be a virgin on her wedding night. Fought the Catholic Church because they believed she wasn't married! The , my mother, woman washed my diapers in the creek in 1951... NOT worthy! She enrolled me in college, in 1969! ! She taught me Northwest History and educated me and my siblings because she longed to be educated herself! Not worthy! I left the Church in 1989 and was disfellowsjipped.
WOW!!!
Your mother makes “Mormon moms look like wannabe Susie
home makers”
Very impressive indeed! Bravo
Oh, good grief. Do you feel the same way when a doctor touches you??
Keeping relatives from attending a wedding, especially mothers, is horrible, inexcusable, and totally unchristlike. It also shows that the whole "temple worthiness" concept is unbiblical. Did Jesus ever reject a person? The only persons he rejected were bigots and people running businesses in the temple. This would fit quite well to the LDS church which uses temples to generate tithing. 🤔
WOW!! What an ignorant thing to say!!
@@emilytoo7729 ... I thought so too. Seems Barbara has the wrong idea(s) regarding anointing in the LDS temples.
You never realize what you have lived through..even when you were a non-practicing Mormon living in a Mormon state. So many of my theories have been confirmed and so many things I had no idea were happening right under my nose. Very informative episode..thank you.
Yes! You talk about the Sept 6 all the time but all I had to go off of was the Wikipedia article. So happy that there is a set episode on this now
And a book!
I’m so impressed that Dr. Sara Patterson is so knowledgable about all of this without ever being a member of the church. I’m fascinated that people outside of the church are interested in studying these things and writing about it.
Thank you for doing the interview.
Women’s degrading role in the church, heaven, just life, is what made me start to question as a young woman. It made me dig deep into the early church and the history…and all the truths swept under the rug. So glad I finally left and removed my name. Leaving the LDS church was the best thing to happen to me.
D. Michael Quinn, what a GREAT scholar, my GRATITUDE, from Lisbon PORTUGAL 🙏
I was a TBM in 1993, busy raising my kids outside of Utah and I never heard of the September 6 until about 2 years ago.
I was raised right in Utah and would have been 18 when this happened and this is the first I’m hearing of it. Goes to show how sheltered the church kept us.
I was at BYU when this all went down, exciting times. I read Quinn’s books about 10 years later, I’ve recently posted a video explaining my exit story 17 years later, it is time to get my story out.
Dr. Quinn was one of my professors in the 80s. I was horrified when he was excommunicated. I could not believe such a kind, generous man deserved excommunication. I was very fortunate in that I was privileged to study with Michael Quinn, Maureen Ursenbach Beecher, and Steven Walker.
I was 18 years old when Sonja Johnson was excommunicated and it was so affirming for me! I read her book From Housewife To Heretic and I found many similarities to her life story. It was a very big deal back then!!!
Yesterday my driver a 30+TBM, said, “ I don’t follow JS I follow Jesus Christ”
I remember during a temple recommend interview in the early 1980s being asked, as a married woman, if I engaged in oral sex. I was shocked! I was given the impression this was a new church-wide policy to ask this question. It caused a quiet uproar in my Calif ward and the question was gone by the next interview. I’ve always wondered if this was actually a church-wide temple recommend question.
I have known about the September 6th for years. I thank God everyday those scholars who were honest, having integrity, telling the truth. Many historians in the LDS church have left after finding and knowing the truth. What members do not understand is, those men were honest and knew more than the church would be honest about. This is why they had the book gaslighting the members "the saints." They are all about control, retention of members for tithes but not truth. . I have zero respect for those who went back, in their hearts they know the truth..
I started seminary in 93 this brings a whole new light to why my seminary teacher reacted like they did to my comments and questions.
Rebecca Biblioteca is wonderful, I truly enjoy her knowledge and presentation.
I read Sonja Johnson’s book, From Housewife to Heretic, during that timeframe. It was eye-opening and I was infuriated on her behalf.
I quit going after losing my faith altogether after attending and lessons.. I was recruited in by missionaries, received lessons- was all in, just to be told I wasn’t worthy enough to be baptized. I felt like they had the answers to my questions, that’s what keeps me around.. distantly.. but the untruthfulness and deception doesn’t make me want to run to be baptized as soon as they decide to deem me worthy- or deem me worthy when a more lenient President/Bishop comes around..
Rebecca, thanks so much for mentioning "Seventh East Press" and Grandpa's Books as a Camelot-time. I was deeply involved with both at the time and writing for Sunstone Review. Huge implications!!
I'm a never Mormon, non religious person who heard of the September 6 so many times. This interview did help understand the history in a much broader way than just a mentionl
This explains so much about my mom's approach to the church- she was born in 1960 so she would have gotten all of the teachings discussed.
A lot of these people-and others on similar paths-were students of Merlin Myers, the founder of BYU’s anthropology department. From late 60s to early 80s, he had a strong influence that I don’t hear mentioned that often. It’d be interesting to hear these people talk about their experience at BYU during this time of intellectual vibrancy regarding the secular study of culture and religion at this faith institution
I'm so excited to read this book!!!
Here to be informed.
41:07 this talk from Dallin Oaks, which is still published on BYU’s website, is a master class in shifting the burden of proof.
Clear and concise scholarly discussion here. Thank you.
Love you so much, John Dehlin! What a freakin hero. Thanks for the work you do.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
This was a FANTASTIC episode! Thank you…. I learned SO much! 🙏
In 1993 I was a faithful member in the UK. We knew absolutely nothing about the September Six. We knew our church experience was less rich and diverse and frankly dull, but we knew nothing about the underpinning politics.
Only thing that could pull me back in is if Carol Lynn Pearson is the next Prophet. Looking back, it was her influence in the 70s and 80s that made me think LDS was tolerable. Mother Wove the Morning was an incredible piece of work.
Hey, if a dude declares himself a feminist w/works to back it up, will he get excommunicated too?
Her speech at salt lake was awesome! (I was doing the recording and it should be up on signature books channel sometime this week) Great work Sara!
I was not old enough to be aware of all this but I am so thankful you did this historical recap.
Sonja Johnson was in my ward in the 1970’s and she and her daughter would wear pants to church. At that time on the church that separated her in a pretty big way. I’m not saying that’s right that she was treated unfairly, especially now that I get her perspective better but she was really coming from a place the church was not ready for.
I would love to discuss Mormon "Blood Atonement,War in Heaven,Free Agency" research & development😅
Sara Patterson: They were having conversations and creating community around questions and issues that they thought were important, and part of what I argue in the book is that they ultimately were trying to suggest that the church shouldn’t have ‘purity’ as it’s key, or core, identity. They argued instead that God was concerned about inclusivism, and egalitarianism, and the search for truth. And so they were offering a different vision to the purity system, and they were arguing that that was the true church….
John Dehlin: Is it fair to say that the September 6 and those in the Sunstone / Dialogue just lost the struggle for the soul of Mormonism…? Or is the story more complicated than that…?
Sara Patterson: I think that the struggle continues.
I am currently reading Todd Compton’s “In Sacred Loneliness “. There are many journals, letters, and articles that show definitively that the women in the church did in FACT hold the priesthood. I wasn’t to know when and how the priesthood was taken away.
One's sacred authority is not defined by nor dictated by a religion.
Sarah thank you for your intelligent thoughts and book. I promise to read it!
Hi from Northern Utah
Really enjoyed this episode. Thanks
Hello from Dallas TX
An Australian nun and university professor, Sister Veronica Brady, when asked if she as a woman should be able to be a priest responded that there should not be a priest class above other believers. I found this a radical and inspiring response inviting us to think outside the restricting frame work imposed on us.
I am a great great granddaughter of John D Lee. My maiden name was Lee. I am from his 4th wife. Looking forward to reading the new book.
Best interview! ❤
Family Fellowship. Gary Watts book, "Rainbow Letters, The Temerity to Believe". He was a huge gay rights advocate, with his wife, Millie.
What a great interview
Thank you
Im not surprised so many mormons are from Alberta!!!!!
I just bought the book Amazon
Can anyone link the Margaret Toscano discussion about the gospel topic essay?
Very enlightening...
I heard a bunch of Members were Excommunicated for not following the rules,
As a convert at 20 growing up in SLC in a Baptist Family I thought ..Why does the Church make it so hard to Worship Jesus???
But now I'm worried that if I'm observed listening and watching Mormon Stories... My membership is in Jeopardy!!!
Thank you JD,
These are very much appreciated?
Elder Packer knew that telling the truth of Mormon history would not jive with what the Brethren were trying to cover up.
I'm very curious to understand what happened to Laurel Thatcher-Ulrich, whose historical work I greatly admired, although I understand that her most recent book (on women's lives in polygamy) has come under fire.
John, Please take care of yourself and protect yourself. You need TLC. So sorry you were drug over the coals and hope it is behind you (l just came across the saga). Love to you and yours, Kathleen, Ca. my whole life now Utah.
Can you please tell me what TBM means? Thank you John Dehlin for all that you do in sharing this podcast. I just started watching some of your Episodes, one that really caught my attention was EP. 1644 when the Mormon Church don't want victims to report Abuse. I was shocked and very disappointed about how the church leaders don't handle and treat the victims with respect.
“True Believing Mormon” or where I grew up “Text Book Mormon”
The priesthood, is where the power lies within the organization, and it is the only power of the priesthood. Essentially, who can make decisions about doctrine, policy, & how money is spent. Essentially, the line in the sand for the old men of Mormonism is, "how dare the women think that they should have some say in the doctrine, policy, & how money is spent." It is pretty pathetic.
I don’t understand how anyone would want back in the church after this. This is an incredible amount of cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics. I myself couldn’t play that game anymore. I left and removed my name. Either the church is true or it isn’t. People need to let go of this nonsense and trust themselves. Stop living in fear and looking to a cult/religion to give you what you are missing inside you. Seek truth instead of comfort. Once you do that the comfort will come.
Rebecca- what’s the podcast you referred to that discussing the gospel topic essays? Mormon.ish? I’d like to listen!
What a fabulous session..I'm listening from Europe, but lived in Utah during the September 6 atrocities and went to the vigil of Paul (we lived a block away). I think the chur h had to stop with the biggest lie: we are the true church. Good grief. Do you know how many say that? I was born in the Catholic Tradition but chose Mormonism at age 21. So i have 2 "only true churches" I just lived 3 months in a yazidi tent camp in Kurdistan. They also think they are the original faith. Yeshiva witnesses. Judaism..I don't know how many KNOW! They all Know!!! My last thought? I have list faith, not in my own divine eternal self, but in all those MANmade institutions. We do NOT NEED MIDDLEMEN! We can communicate ourselves. Sure community is great. But stop telling people how to talk, dress, when to go ave sex, not to gave coffee, etc etc et c..it's a cult folks.
I am Japanese. I try to watch your videos, but you and your guests speak so fast that I can’t catch everything. Would it be possible you translate your videos in Japanese so that we, Japanese can understand them all?
You can slow it down under the gear icon play back speed.
Standardisation and uniformity. A bit like McDonalds or KFC.
Keep exposing the hypocrisy!
Is it just me, or does it seem like mormonism is in its death throes?
Who is general authority RONALD POELMAN AND WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM??
Somehow it seems that Jesus the Christ would never dismiss/ex a follower … remember in love He said…”go and sin no more”…
It strikes me that the Savior would never lower himself to “ membership” to belief in him…and subsequent ex- communication that damage the psyche…but that’s the pay for indulgences 501-c3…
I appreciate Rebecca but her background really washes her out.
Those 3 things said by Boyd was terrible
I've created something for your Channel my Man. Can I send it to You somewhere?
I have a challenge for you, John!!! I am a super active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. I have a current temple recommend, and I attend the temple when I can. I was on the high Council and serve for five years under a very wise stake president. I served as the stake young men’s president and was in charge of the youth. My father‘s cousin was Paul H done, an epic storyteller even though he was a bit of a boob at times I am currently serving in the temple as a Temple Worker in the near future. I went through a mental illness, but I have recovered fully and like Julie Rowe I’m ready to light the world, my challenge to you is if you have the guts to actually ring a real man of God on your show is this:
I will come on your show, dressed in anything that you would like me to dress in whether it’s Robin Hood in green tights, or Joseph Smith, or anything like that you pick. And you bring on for other experts, that are your very favorites like our FM Nemo, I don’t care , the only person I want by my side is Gerardo. And here’s the deal if after we have our debate, the consensus, amongst those that are following your group, which is probably close to 1 million is in favor of me, then you have to join the remnant group And Neil before Denver Snuffer. Well, you don’t have to Neil you can just shake his hand and tell him that you want to join that group if I lose, and the majority of your viewing audience, agrees with you, I will carry a sign and walk around the Salt Lake Temple in black for one week, and it will say get these damn dogs out of our world the brother, and have really screwed it up!!! But only, if I get to have Gerardo as my support or sponsor no, I take that back I want both Gerardo and Kara. And the only rule that we have as far as what we can say, is this.
Everybody gets to speak the truth !!!
Peter, with all due respect, I don't think you are at all "fully cured." What if you show this text to your therapist or psychiatrist? See what they think?
I'm really being serious here. It's not a normal thing to challenge a podcast host while offering to wear a costume like Peter Pan in tights, or demand that his employees/contractors take "your side" (why would they?), or demand that if he "loses" he kneels before Denver Snuffer?
No one would want to see that, Peter.
No one at Mormon Stories would have any interest in taking advantage of somebody who is still clearly struggling with their mental health.
It would be a very cruel thing to subject you to what you are asking for publicly.
Most of us leave the cruelty of the Church because we have too much compassion to stay in.
I hope you get more help. Heart to heart, Peter.
Hell of a way to make a living
Are you referring to writing a book, or recording a podcast?
I have very long been a fan, and have learned so much from this Podcast. However, as time goes on, the discussion increasingly diverts to an attack on those who left Mormonism who are of a conservative bent, as if the left/liberal side owns as much of the truth as the Mormons they are criticizing suppose of their own beliefs. From my viewpoint, many are merely leaving one cult for another, and the Gospel of the Left is preached a bit too much here. Keep in mind that people leave the church for a variety of destinations, and I still believe that John's mission in his heart is to serve all of them. I am in favor of free speech for all, including my Left-Cult member friends, but I suggest providing a forum for those who travelled to different destinations aside from that cult to express their viewpoints, rather than the follow-on assumption that all Left talking points are automatically "the truth."
Huh. There's always middle ground. Calling people of certain political leanings in a cult, right or left is telling that you may have more deconstructing to do. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
What left talking points felt threatening or overwhelming to you here?
@@amygreen758I can only think of women's rights.
You all left the Church and can’t leave it alone. Why?
If you have to ask…you will never understand
@@annedodgson8677 Typical tactic. Make a demeaning reply instead of answering the question. Can you answer me truthfully?
Sorry for my language, and my zeal. I get a little ticked off at dumb idiots that speak sometimes. You see what I mean I don’t even like to call people dumb.. Please forgive me and I’ll do this for you. You pick what’s written on the sign and I’ll just walk around the temple with it as long as it’s not inappropriate in terms of the vulgarity of the language.
Something to ask yourselves as a life coach I hear stories of all kinds...so, for whatever reason you left the church, so why not leave it...why are you still coming back and back to rehash your stories or experiences? You left the church( your religion at one time) so leave it .. leave it behind and stop the rehash mentality. One will never really heal if you keep coming back and back and back with pod casts forums or books etc. Just leave it alone and allow others their journey without harshing judging them for their choice...that people , is hypocrisy . Live and let live .stop scratching your scabs and showing others your wounds of yesterday.
It’s beneficial for ex-Mormons who were scarred and/or damaged by the religion in helping them to heal. You don’t have to listen. 🤷♀️