Earlier today, when I saw that MSP had reached 200k, I was thrilled. Left a congrats for John. He liked it almost immediately. I'm delighted for the growth. I've come to love this channel.
CONGRATULATIONS ON THE 200k!!!!! Can’t wait to continue watching this channel grow and reach as many people as possible. I’ve never even been religious, but your channel teaches me to have a better understanding of my friends/family members that are extremely religious. Incredible work. 🥳🥳🥳🥳
This episode was made for me. Thank you for doing the broad overview of religion, power, society, evolution, and scarcity. This is the stuff I'm here for. 👏
Almost my entire family are addicts. I am one of the only ones with no addictions. And yet I find myself watching this and soaking it all in. I wish more ppl wanted to self help and get feeling better mentally and physically. Some days I feel isolated because I crave “normal”conversations with family members. Healthy and productive conversations and relationships do not exist anymore with my siblings. Thank you for sharing your story with us. And congratulations on your sobriety.
Hey, this comment really got to me. I am so sorry to hear about what you are going through. I am an alcoholic, 5 years sober and I thought I could share some insights that might be helpful to you (although it might be hard to hear). First off, the way your siblings and other family members now present as active addicts are not the real people they are underneath. They do deserve empathy, but NOTHING you can do or say, can change their addiction. Change can only come from within themselves and that usually only happens when they have no other choice but to stop drinking/using - as we call it 'hitting rock bottom'. So any responsibility you might feel to help them straighten out is pointless. I would try to limit interaction and communication with them as far as possible if I were you, until they make a sincere effort to come clean. I would go as far as to advise you to get the hell away from them if you can. Don't let the toxicity bring you down and limit your quality of life. Yolo. I say this as someone who was on the other side and who brought untold misery and heartache on my own family while I was drinking. I wish I could take those years back, but I can't. I am very lucky to still have them in my life, but I wouldn't blame them if they weren't. I remember the addiction mindset - you are not you, you are the addition, you only care about the next drink/hit. Your family cannot truly care about you while they are in the grips of addiction. Be aware of the problem that often, when addicts get rid of one addiction, they replace it with another one, if they don't (like Michael said) get to the root cause and replace it with something healthy. Also, addicts are master manipulators, as you surely are aware. Arm yourself by learning about manipulation tactics and emotional abuse that happens in toxic families. And find your own family/community outside of blood ties - people who care about you and your interests, who you can talk to, that brings joy to your life. There is a term called radical acceptance in psychology that means that instead of avoiding or wishing a situation was different, to accept these difficult situations and emotions so you can move beyond them. Sometimes it is just as hard for the people around the addict to accept that their loved ones are addicts and that that is probably not going to change, than for the addicts to acknowledge that they are addicts. Look after yourself. ❤
Thanks for calling grading like it is John. When I was at UC Santa Cruz we did not get grades. Jasper Rose, art professor, famously said, “Grades are for meat.” I no longer grade assignments. The system requires me to assign a final grade, but I just base it on amount of work completed and in line with course goals.
I can tell this book is going to be a great read with insights and honesty. Thank you Dr. Dehlin to invite Michael Easter. Listening still but want to send in an early TGIF and sparkling positivity 🍵🌈💜🦋🐝🎏🕊️
I love what you both said about it being about the journey and the struggle. It reminds me how the best family stories that get shared time and time again are the ones where everything went off the rails. The "omg is this really happening right now" moments. We love that as humans.
I feel like this discussion was talking to me personally. Thank you And by the way I was raised in North Logan in the Cache Valley but as a non Mormon. Oddly, My great grandfather lived in Springville in the 1870's and was not Mormon. He married an LDS woman who did not want to marry the local polygamous Bishop and was about 25 years younger. They ended up getting chased out of Utah in about 1880 by the bishop and his gang. They settled in Albion, Idaho. I was never LDS, and I only moved to Utah when I was 5 years old because my dad got a job as a professor at USU. So my Mormon story is bit disjointed. But watching Mormon stories has giving me a lot more insights about growing up as non member and lots of things from those years make a lot more sense now. So thanks, John!!
Congrats on your sobriety! You figured out the components to sobriety sooner than many!! John, this podcast is a refreshing change following the heavy, but superb podcasts, earlier this this week. Practice self care. Grateful for your devotion to providing something for everyone!!
Hey guys thank you so much for this conversation I loved listening to it and it tends to ring true with a lot of what I tend to think as well. I am anti-religion and anti-dictatorship. To me it seems religion plus tribalism = war machines. I love the way you discuss evolutionary and genetic influences on human behavior. It is so good to hear this discussion taking place on social media these days. It is a source of hope to me.
Congrats on 200K. I just discovered your channel when the 8 Passengers arrest happened, but I’ve been binge watching ever since. I’m Catholic (and yes, I have questions and contentions, but also not planning to leave) and I don’t live in the Mormon Corridor, so I don’t know many Mormons. But your content is so smart, so in depth and so human I can’t get enough. Also I’m about to turn 53, so I think we are the same age. I don’t see many creators on here our age so that might make like you a little extra! 😂 Keep up the amazing work!
John, I find your interviews so enjoyable and inspiring. It is the way you look into your guests and bringing out an interesting story they are sometimes stumbling on or struggling to approach…To me you become a bridge that keeps the story flowing with an introspective desire that almost seems like you were there, deepening the telling and moving the guest into reveling a more in depth story. Write your book with the same passion you have with your interviews….We all think you are one of a kind…..🌻👍🙃
I like Marc Lewis’s books Biology of Desire and Memoirs of an Addicted Brain, which describe addiction as neither a disease nor a moral failing, but a neuro-adaptation.
This was so good. John, I hope a short will be made to be shared that starts arouuund 1:12:00 where you go into religion (vs secular community) and scarcity. That was right on.
The key takeaways are sooooooo amazing…. Remind me of Lao-Tzu’s teachings. This book needs to be optioned for a movie or a docu-series. Both books purchased and thank you Michael, cannot wait to read them. Thank you Dr. Dehlin for this episode, perfect for this raining afternoon in the concrete jungle of NYC.
So interesting! (Starting around 1:26:00 speaking about religious disdain of queer/LGBTQIA+ people regarding efficiency) My theory was always that same sex couples can't have biological children together so if people are told that their purpose is to have children (as many as possible depending on the religious sect) then same sex couples don't really serve a purpose in that respect and it reduces the pool of potential mates. This is an incredibly simplistic view though because what does that say about people who are single or couples that can't have chikdren? Obviously they can contribute in other ways and why should they be denied love and companionship simply because they're not having children? Also, they could provide and/or utilize surrogacy or be adoptive parents. Super interesting to hear someone else bring this topic up.
FYI- heart disease is listed for anyone dying of old age. Our modern mortuary system requires a ‘cause of death.’ Therefore, we MUST put something as the cause of death, all old age deaths in my experience are listed as heart disease/ failure. This is skewing numbers in a way we cannot quite measure.
I'm embarrassed to say I've just recently found your channel. I think I've downloaded every video you have. I can't get enough of how succinct and respectful you are towards all of your guests. I also listen to you on Spotify while I'm at work. Keep up the amazing work you do in bringing a better understanding of joseph Smith and mainstream LDS
Please make sure to specify what type of diabetes is being discussed. Type 1 has complex genetic markers that mysteriously trigger autoimmune dysfunction-- it has nothing to do with food choices or lifestyle. Type 2 diabetes can be related to how bodies become less efficient with aging, from poor nutrition or sedentary routines. But they are vastly different diseases.
A tenet of Sufism is that longing is the experience of the divine. In the poem, “Love Dogs,” Rumi relates a story offering an amplify that the dog’s aching longing for its master is the experience of “god.”
Interesting interview. I agree that challenges can push us forward and make us feel more fulfilled. However, it is not necessary to artificially look for them. I find that challenging experiences naturally happen during our life and as a neurotypical person, I am aware that even everyday stuff can be hard and challenging experiences can affect our health significantly.
I would offer that this “challenge” based approach might be characterized as “masculine,” for lack of a better descriptor. I would argue that what he calls “comfort” is actually a quality of disembodiment. True, embodied pleasure or presence is as transformative as a “challenge” in becoming fully human.
What about for people who have anxiety and depression where pushing themselves to the edge only accumulates bad experiences and hurts them over time? I understand that I need to push myself through things like exposure therapy in order to get better, but being frequently at that edge has only hurt me in the long run.
Michael hit the nail on the head with his comparison of explaining to a teen as compared to an adult. What's good as a teen explanation is not adequate for an adult. Maybe we can think of the mental, social, religious evolution of humanity as the reason why explanations found in ancient religions like Christianity just don't work with a more knowledgeable and sophisticated mind of today. It's like grades in a school where teachers prepare lessons developmentally tailored to the levels of the classes. Just because the eighth grade teacher teaches algebra while the second grade teacher doesn't, doesn't imply that the second grade teacher couldn't teach algebra, or was less smart. Maybe we should respect the Teachers of all the great world religions equally, rather than saying that one is better than another because of what He taught or didn't teach. One aspect of religion, or of any civilization or culture, is what emphasis is given to individuality. Ancient cultures in which the the whole of society was of a higher priority than the individual members were the ones that thrived and survived. One of the best examples of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole was at the battle of Thermopylae where 300 Spartans willingly fought to the death in order to stop or slow down the Persian army. Dying in that battle was not in their self-interest. So maybe one aspect of religion is to develop community-mindedness, where individuals are willing to sacrifice for the good of the whole. Discomfort in the short term leads to a better future for everyone. All you need is a progressive minded religion where people are not motivated by shame, but by selflessness. I think that Jesus actually taught this, that all the shame was a product of Paul. But the scarcity brain has been put on steroids in the U.S. where we're taught to be rugged individuals rather than working together cooperatively. The Amish have a lot to teach us about that.
Regarding John discovering how difficult establishing a secular community can be as it's missing the guilt and scarcity, I'd say the Unitarians have gotten pretty close. I realize it's a mix of believers and atheists, but I've never heard guilt and scarcity used with them, not even as a way to guilt us into helping others.
So casinos are cash cows as long as you keep the hotel & food areas clean & well managed. A forever source of major income. Who would fail at that? I mean, unless it’s a front for laundering profits made from drug, weapons & human trafficking, a casino is a guaranteed successful business. Edit: the place where I work takes advantage of this by having “seasonal” items that are only available for a few weeks. Many of them aren’t even very good, but they sell as if you can’t get them elsewhere or they’re all the best ever. Lolz.
It does seem to have started out of the time when we started farming. But it’s probably more complex than just that. When we started husbanding animals-it would have started to be obvious that men also were a necessary part of baby making, for example. I think a lot of the current misogyny is based on the fear that women might not need men to reproduce anymore. It actually is possible to create a child from two eggs, supposedly. But it’s a silly fear.😂 Old fashioned baby making is much more fun. And someone has to do the heavy lifting and kill bugs for us😂
I can attest to this diet! Eat as natural as possible without processing and you'll lose weight! But since we are all addicted to processed food, it's super hard to do!
I'm curious? Is Utah's economy benefitting from the Mormon Church's missionary activity around the third world, like a colonizer? Does the Church pull more resources out these countries...via tithing...than it invests in them? Is so, that is unjust.
Good question. And the fact that the church has at least 150 billion dollars makes me sick. They could do so much good but that's not what they are about.
And tribal (nationalism) insanity. Racism. My people are better than yours, and yours are trying to steal our women, our jobs, and our food!! We are so deeply entrenched in that belief and these ‘leaders’ (political, religious, corporate) use that to control and manipulate us to be actual slaves for them. Until we can really clearly see that as everyday humans, it will continue. Studies are showing that a huge percentage of them are psychopaths. We are and have been allowing the inmates to run the asylum. Needs to stop very soon.
My point is why does the LDS Church (for example), teach its members to say "I know "this" Church is true. It's an actual thing they do. Why do so many religions think they are the only true religion? Why do they put pressure on their members to only go to their church? Why isn't religion an interchangeable thing? This is where they all go wrong, coveting members.IMO it gives them way to much control and power.
One of the be theological questions people were asking in the early 19th century was which church is the true church. The logic was that if there's one God, then there must be one true religion. That's why there were many "One true churches". My aunt and uncle belonged to one of those "true"churches called "The Church of Christ" and insisted that only the members of that church would be saved. Fearful people didn't want to belong to just a good church, it had to be the "one true church". I agree with you that Christians should be understanding enough to realize that every Christian might not understand their religion just as you do, but that's okay. We're all different. But Christianity has a history of creating Creeds which spell out a list of beliefs all Christians must at least say they believe. Our Pilgrim Fathers in Boston, in 1659, hanged several Quakers they discovered teaching Quaker beliefs to the Puritans after they were warned not to, that's how Christian they were!@@sew161
Thats so funny. I was listening to the podcast in the other room and my girlfriend was like that guy sounds like a weenie. I was indifferent on his voice myself but that's funny you had such a different opinion.
John, I was genuinely shocked by your response and the following discussion regarding your challenges building a secular community as successful as religion. As you were answering what religion has over secular communities, I did not expect you to say guilt and shame. Because anthropologically speaking, that’s not the answer. I didn’t realize how much pain the Church still has a strangle hold on your heart. Yes, guilt and shame hangs over the heads of all “recovering Christians.” A majority of religions are fine purveyors of both. The Mormon church, Especially. Guilt and shame are the “ultra-processed” short cut to the evolutionary function of religion. It’s why churches are shedding young people in droves. If guilt and shame were as socially addictive as intermediate rewards, we wouldn’t be seeing a nation wide faith crisis. Which means those AREN’T the true pull of religion over secular communities. But, I can see how yours, (and a great number of people’s,) trauma is so blinding it’s hard to see the actual path. The deep evolutionary trigger of religion is ritual, tradition, and structure. We didn’t evolve as individuals. One man is eaten by a lion. We only evolved by our ability to form social bonds. Early religion, which was present and naturalistic, kept us alive long enough to be here today. It might not have been called religion back then, but it’s the third pillar of survival to food and water. Our national mental health crisis can be directly tied to how toxic the organizations we need have become. So of course we’re leaving them, which either leaves us grappling with trauma or feeling along and purposeless from never having community to start. I thought the example of the military was interesting, but not for the reasons shared. I’ve heard the same comments about ex-soldiers missing battle and horrific things one should never want to return to. However, studies have shown it’s not battle they miss. The military checks every box that satisfies a person’s need for community. It’s not about never having to think for yourself, but there is an intense level of structure. And there’s absolutely ritual, ceremony, and tradition imbedded at every point. Lastly, the strange, silver lining born from the horrors of battle is the camaraderie built between soldiers who endure those times together. It’s the sheer intensity of brotherhood/sisterhood and purpose. It’s also why families who’ve stayed in the military for generations is not only a thing, but a deep source of pride. They are part of something larger than theirselves, with gravitas and consequence. With that being said, I’ve never had ANY interest in the military. But I get it. I was in Girl Scouts when I was young. I really loved it. Then, one summer in college I got to be a Girl Scout counselor at an outdoor summer camp. I spent 10 weeks living in a platform tent, teaching girls how to make the perfect one match fire, engaging in annual activities and competitions, singing songs long passed down on hikes or by the campfire, and I loved every sweaty, itchy, uncomfortable moment of it. I remember that summer as one of the happiest times in my life. I remember the other counselors, many of which were English speaking internationals who’d come to work and save money so they could backpack the country after camp. I haven’t seen any of them since, but for a summer they were my sisters, and I loved them. A secular community of purpose with ritual, tradition, and structure is not only possible, but it’s been done. Many times over. How do you create a community like this for those who’ve left the church, looking for a home, and baring deep, open, and painful spiritual wounds? You take what you know and you make it your own. What should post-Mormon Christmas celebrations look like? I don’t know. Start making things up and see what sticks. They can range the full gamut from somber/meaningful to deeply silly. Create a space on-line where ex-mo’s from all over can share their celebrations with each other, spreading ideas and fostering organic growth. So, a successful secular community of purpose is more than possible. You can keep the good and truth found among many members of the church, and continue that work “in the real world.” I left the church after going to college and leaving my home ward which I now realize was a somewhat “feral” ward in the woods of northwest CT. Out of all the reasons I could list for leaving the church, being gay, coming of age with the internet, becoming a devoted fan of great wine, my primary crisis of faith was this. When I left home, I realized my belief wasn’t in the church but in the incredible community that raised me. I lucked out. My parents were poor and struggling when I was very young, and the missionaries offered them something they didn’t have. A tight-knit, multi-generational community that would help them make ends meet and raise their family. That’s where I made my longest lasting friends, and was able to learn from and confide in an entire village of adults. Funny enough, several are no longer members either. I think a fair share of us founded our belief on each other without realizing it. Looking back, I understand how funny the complete non-issue of sunstone magazines lying around was. Or how before “central casting” decided wards couldn’t engage in independent fundraisers outside of tithing, we managed to NOT be the weirdos in our hometown by hosting the annual family-friendly, fun for all-ages, haunted house. I have fond memories of my Dad, jolly like Santa, but with a suit, top hat, ghostly white face, and selected teeth blacked out. Greeting all who entered the haunted house and joyfully posing for photos with the local kids. In CT, Halloween’s a pretty big deal. But there’s not always dedicated spaces for families and young children that go all-out to celebrate. I remember we always advertised the haunted house as hosted by the local LDS branch. It wasn’t something weird or to be hidden. There certainly weren’t a lot of Mormons where I grew up, but people knew us for being honest, trustworthy, and hardworking. Our name on a project meant something, and the community put their trust in us. I remember the year hearing we’d no longer be putting on this annual tradition. I was old enough to hear that our ward would only be supported by tithes going forward, but too young to consider why the decision was made. I just remember feeling sad about loosing a tradition I looked forward to being part of every year. Not just looked forward to, but looked forward to being PART of. I might have been 6 or 7, but I was old enough to be given some small job. It made me feel important, and like I belonged. That, right there, is the cornerstone to creating a community of purpose. We all understand what’s meant by “high demand religions.” And the answers aren’t pretty. But on the side of the spectrum, low to no demand communities/organizations fall apart. A healthy level of demand is the glue that holds that community together. (Double emphasis on the healthy part.) Everyone needs a role to play. A way to contribute. Something to be responsible for. If someone is missing their absence should be quickly noticed and felt. Of course, that needs to balanced by compassion. There are many reasons someone might not able to contribute. And a commitment to receiving those who can’t give has a surprising feedback effect regarding the willingness of those who can. If you ever end up reading this, here’s a challenge. Beyond your YouTubing, podcasting, and outreach, think about what taking your pain and turning it into a cooperative community of purpose might look like, and find a way to make it happen.
The fact that masturbation is normative (practically everyone does it), is exactly the reason why it must be controlled. It has nothing to do with masturbation being unproductive (not producing offspring), but rather it has to do with the cycle of guilt. Imagine a world where there were almost nothing to tempt human beings, in this case, a religion would lose its tools to keep its member in the group. Without constant temptation and the mental self torture of guilt, there would be no need for forgiveness, and religion as the authority granting forgiveness, would lose all of its power to keep a group together. Regarding LGBTQ we need to remember that if there is an in group that there has to be an out group. There is nothing like hate and fear to keep a group united. When religion was not institutionalized or non-existent (in the remote past), only survival mattered and and everyone's unique contribution mattered. This idea is put forth in the book "Sex Time and Power" Imagine a in a hunter gather group a child loses his/her parents, but with a gay uncle or aunt unencumbered by their own children, this orphan would still receive the love and food necessary to survive. In the remote past a gay family member would have been the equivalent of having a wealthy relative. JCB
This channel does make a lot of good points and addresses many valid issues, but I feel like it also does paint a false view of the church and its members in many ways as well. We are not all brainwashed people who don't see or acknowledge the truth when we find it. There are MANY of us now who have noticed the issues with church history, our leaders lying, our leaders not being legitimate, misuse of tithing funds, polygamy not being a true doctrine and so on, and we are very concerned. There is what the church is supposed to be, and what it currently is, and we see that those are two completely different things. I can't go to the temple anymore, neither can my sister or her husband bc of what we have learned and acknowledged isn't right here these days. I'm also noticing that there seems to be a bitter agenda sometimes with this channel. I see a lot of compassion from you guys which I appreciate. But there is also an agenda. Whether it's you guys or the church leaders, neither of you has presented everything in church history or about the current state of things so that people really can make their own well-informed decisions about what to do or believe. There is a giant chunk of history especially that is left out on both your parts, and it's THE big piece that really holds the power to allow people to make the most well-informed decision they possibly can. I have a hard time believing anyone's claim to full sincerity when they aren't telling the whole story. If you don't tell the whole story its just more control.
Capitalism is also a kind of religion. The efficiency of binary genders and the small family unit works for capitalist exploitation in ways that the big religions didn’t initially need. Lack of tech meant people had to work in community to survive. After land grabs, that’s when we see religion get co-opted into controlling people with a drive towards a binary, small family set up that depends on being exploited for money, food and a scrap of land to grow some veggies or keep a few animals. Cults wraps up religion with exploitation and really put gender, racism and anti-masturbation ideas to work to tie people into the tiny family unit that can most easily be manipulated into compliances.
I have to disagree with your premises Mr Dehlin. Jesus Christ is our loving creator and He is our Savior and only offers good things to us. He is merciful and kind, and desires the highest levels of living and power for every person, but this requires laws and certain behavior to achieve.
No, I can’t see that this is fact-based. But while it’s interesting, personal experience tells me, some of his conclusions are simply not as universal as he says.
And why are you so very sure that you are better than all other people? How selfish and arrogant! Billions of people are wrong and evil somehow, but your group is ‘white and light’ and know all? And right now, right there in Utah, Idaho, Arizona-there are Mormons killing and torturing children. Sexually assaulting women because they are holy and are somehow ‘allowed’ to do that. Destroying marriages and lives. Just like in every other place on Earth. Get down off that high horse and start cleaning up your own house and neighborhood, brother, and once you are actually ‘perfect’ and good luck on that one, you can start laughing.
Earlier today, when I saw that MSP had reached 200k, I was thrilled. Left a congrats for John. He liked it almost immediately. I'm delighted for the growth. I've come to love this channel.
CONGRATULATIONS ON THE 200k!!!!! Can’t wait to continue watching this channel grow and reach as many people as possible. I’ve never even been religious, but your channel teaches me to have a better understanding of my friends/family members that are extremely religious. Incredible work. 🥳🥳🥳🥳
I’m not Mormon. Never been deep into religion. But I love this channel. Thank you.
This episode was made for me. Thank you for doing the broad overview of religion, power, society, evolution, and scarcity. This is the stuff I'm here for. 👏
The authors Father missed having a highly intelligent, really handsome and well spoken young man.
Almost my entire family are addicts. I am one of the only ones with no addictions. And yet I find myself watching this and soaking it all in. I wish more ppl wanted to self help and get feeling better mentally and physically. Some days I feel isolated because I crave “normal”conversations with family members. Healthy and productive conversations and relationships do not exist anymore with my siblings. Thank you for sharing your story with us. And congratulations on your sobriety.
Hey, this comment really got to me. I am so sorry to hear about what you are going through.
I am an alcoholic, 5 years sober and I thought I could share some insights that might be helpful to you (although it might be hard to hear).
First off, the way your siblings and other family members now present as active addicts are not the real people they are underneath. They do deserve empathy, but NOTHING you can do or say, can change their addiction. Change can only come from within themselves and that usually only happens when they have no other choice but to stop drinking/using - as we call it 'hitting rock bottom'.
So any responsibility you might feel to help them straighten out is pointless.
I would try to limit interaction and communication with them as far as possible if I were you, until they make a sincere effort to come clean. I would go as far as to advise you to get the hell away from them if you can.
Don't let the toxicity bring you down and limit your quality of life. Yolo.
I say this as someone who was on the other side and who brought untold misery and heartache on my own family while I was drinking.
I wish I could take those years back, but I can't.
I am very lucky to still have them in my life, but I wouldn't blame them if they weren't.
I remember the addiction mindset - you are not you, you are the addition, you only care about the next drink/hit.
Your family cannot truly care about you while they are in the grips of addiction.
Be aware of the problem that often, when addicts get rid of one addiction, they replace it with another one, if they don't (like Michael said) get to the root cause and replace it with something healthy.
Also, addicts are master manipulators, as you surely are aware. Arm yourself by learning about manipulation tactics and emotional abuse that happens in toxic families.
And find your own family/community outside of blood ties - people who care about you and your interests, who you can talk to, that brings joy to your life.
There is a term called radical acceptance in psychology that means that instead of avoiding or wishing a situation was different, to accept these difficult situations and emotions so you can move beyond them.
Sometimes it is just as hard for the people around the addict to accept that their loved ones are addicts and that that is probably not going to change, than for the addicts to acknowledge that they are addicts.
Look after yourself. ❤
Thanks for calling grading like it is John. When I was at UC Santa Cruz we did not get grades. Jasper Rose, art professor, famously said, “Grades are for meat.” I no longer grade assignments. The system requires me to assign a final grade, but I just base it on amount of work completed and in line with course goals.
You had me at the title
🎯
Same
Yay for John Dehlin and his guests and his work
I mean thank goodness. Seriously.
I can tell this book is going to be a great read with insights and honesty. Thank you Dr. Dehlin to invite Michael Easter. Listening still but want to send in an early TGIF and sparkling positivity 🍵🌈💜🦋🐝🎏🕊️
I love what you both said about it being about the journey and the struggle. It reminds me how the best family stories that get shared time and time again are the ones where everything went off the rails. The "omg is this really happening right now" moments. We love that as humans.
I feel like this discussion was talking to me personally. Thank you And by the way I was raised in North Logan in the Cache Valley but as a non Mormon. Oddly, My great grandfather lived in Springville in the 1870's and was not Mormon. He married an LDS woman who did not want to marry the local polygamous Bishop and was about 25 years younger. They ended up getting chased out of Utah in about 1880 by the bishop and his gang. They settled in Albion, Idaho. I was never LDS, and I only moved to Utah when I was 5 years old because my dad got a job as a professor at USU. So my Mormon story is bit disjointed. But watching Mormon stories has giving me a lot more insights about growing up as non member and lots of things from those years make a lot more sense now. So thanks, John!!
Great guest! So appreciate him sharing his story. Definitely want to read his books!
Congratulations on 200k subscribers.
Congrats on your sobriety! You figured out the components to sobriety sooner than many!!
John, this podcast is a refreshing change following the heavy, but superb podcasts, earlier this this week. Practice self care. Grateful for your devotion to providing something for everyone!!
Hey guys thank you so much for this conversation I loved listening to it and it tends to ring true with a lot of what I tend to think as well. I am anti-religion and anti-dictatorship. To me it seems religion plus tribalism = war machines. I love the way you discuss evolutionary and genetic influences on human behavior. It is so good to hear this discussion taking place on social media these days. It is a source of hope to me.
This episode is amazing! Thank you for bringing us this content John and Michael! I love the episodes that are rich in intellectual dialogue. 💛
Congrats on 200K. I just discovered your channel when the 8 Passengers arrest happened, but I’ve been binge watching ever since. I’m Catholic (and yes, I have questions and contentions, but also not planning to leave) and I don’t live in the Mormon Corridor, so I don’t know many Mormons. But your content is so smart, so in depth and so human I can’t get enough. Also I’m about to turn 53, so I think we are the same age. I don’t see many creators on here our age so that might make like you a little extra! 😂 Keep up the amazing work!
John, please write a book!! You have so much experience to pass on!
I love that the pittie mixes name is Conway Twitty! Thanks for making my day!
Looking forward to this!
Have ordered both books thank you so much for this show xxx
John, I find your interviews so enjoyable and inspiring. It is the way you look into your guests and bringing out an interesting story they are sometimes stumbling on or struggling to approach…To me you become a bridge that keeps the story flowing with an introspective desire that almost seems like you were there, deepening the telling and moving the guest into reveling a more in depth story. Write your book with the same passion you have with your interviews….We all think you are one of a kind…..🌻👍🙃
🙏❤️
This means the world Linda.
I like Marc Lewis’s books Biology of Desire and Memoirs of an Addicted Brain, which describe addiction as neither a disease nor a moral failing, but a neuro-adaptation.
2nd this.
Sounds fascinating!
Very interesting conversation! Thank you both for your openness and honesty.
Awesome interview, fascinating guest. Ordered the book after only listening to Michael for 30 minutes.
This was so good. John, I hope a short will be made to be shared that starts arouuund 1:12:00 where you go into religion (vs secular community) and scarcity. That was right on.
incredibly valuable interview. thank you John and Michael!
The key takeaways are sooooooo amazing…. Remind me of Lao-Tzu’s teachings. This book needs to be optioned for a movie or a docu-series. Both books purchased and thank you Michael, cannot wait to read them. Thank you Dr. Dehlin for this episode, perfect for this raining afternoon in the concrete jungle of NYC.
So interesting! (Starting around 1:26:00 speaking about religious disdain of queer/LGBTQIA+ people regarding efficiency) My theory was always that same sex couples can't have biological children together so if people are told that their purpose is to have children (as many as possible depending on the religious sect) then same sex couples don't really serve a purpose in that respect and it reduces the pool of potential mates. This is an incredibly simplistic view though because what does that say about people who are single or couples that can't have chikdren? Obviously they can contribute in other ways and why should they be denied love and companionship simply because they're not having children? Also, they could provide and/or utilize surrogacy or be adoptive parents. Super interesting to hear someone else bring this topic up.
FYI- heart disease is listed for anyone dying of old age. Our modern mortuary system requires a ‘cause of death.’ Therefore, we MUST put something as the cause of death, all old age deaths in my experience are listed as heart disease/ failure. This is skewing numbers in a way we cannot quite measure.
Heart disease is a common chronic illness for the elderly but there are certainly other causes listed on the death certificates of elderly.
I'm embarrassed to say I've just recently found your channel. I think I've downloaded every video you have. I can't get enough of how succinct and respectful you are towards all of your guests. I also listen to you on Spotify while I'm at work. Keep up the amazing work you do in bringing a better understanding of joseph Smith and mainstream LDS
Just ordered both books! Anxious for their arrival!
Please make sure to specify what type of diabetes is being discussed. Type 1 has complex genetic markers that mysteriously trigger autoimmune dysfunction-- it has nothing to do with food choices or lifestyle.
Type 2 diabetes can be related to how bodies become less efficient with aging, from poor nutrition or sedentary routines.
But they are vastly different diseases.
I loved this interview..The books will be on my to buy list for Christmas.
Fantastic interview. Such important lessons to become aware of & try to implement into our modern lives.
This was such a super discussion. Thank you both for what you do.
One of the best listens.
Have read both his books
Yay for 9 years of SOBRIETY! ❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉
Thanks Michael, very interesting and you are good speaker. ❤❤
“The search is what matters”
Yep.
This was great! Fascinating and very important!
A tenet of Sufism is that longing is the experience of the divine. In the poem, “Love Dogs,” Rumi relates a story offering an amplify that the dog’s aching longing for its master is the experience of “god.”
*an anology
It’s the same longing that is experienced in Bhakti yoga. To be with the beloved 😊
People around 80 years ago ate 3000 cals a day and were trim and in shape. It's not us over eating it's eating the wrong foods.
And not walking for water and hunting and gathering -oh 80 years-dang idk farming or factory work?
This may be one of the most valuable ones
Interesting interview. I agree that challenges can push us forward and make us feel more fulfilled. However, it is not necessary to artificially look for them. I find that challenging experiences naturally happen during our life and as a neurotypical person, I am aware that even everyday stuff can be hard and challenging experiences can affect our health significantly.
200K let’s celebrate 🎉🥂🍾
Genetics influence your odds toward or freedom from addiction. It’s not determinative, but affects propensity.
I would offer that this “challenge” based approach might be characterized as “masculine,” for lack of a better descriptor. I would argue that what he calls “comfort” is actually a quality of disembodiment. True, embodied pleasure or presence is as transformative as a “challenge” in becoming fully human.
Great conversation.
Fascinating
I want to Woods Cross High School. Graduated 1989. Definitely can relate
Shout out to Unitarian Universalism. It’s my go-to for a sense of spiritual community without dogma.
When I was a young child, I won $8 from a nickel slot machine on the Chesapeake Bay. My Dad was trying to teach me the futility of gambling. 😂
Oops! Beginners luck got him!
This looks good!
Star Trek gives me.hope. we must evolve our brains!
What about for people who have anxiety and depression where pushing themselves to the edge only accumulates bad experiences and hurts them over time? I understand that I need to push myself through things like exposure therapy in order to get better, but being frequently at that edge has only hurt me in the long run.
Yeah different personality types. We can push ourselves in our own ways though like spending time outdoors every day.
Excellent episode! Very relevant topics.
Michael hit the nail on the head with his comparison of explaining to a teen as compared to an adult. What's good as a teen explanation is not adequate for an adult. Maybe we can think of the mental, social, religious evolution of humanity as the reason why explanations found in ancient religions like Christianity just don't work with a more knowledgeable and sophisticated mind of today. It's like grades in a school where teachers prepare lessons developmentally tailored to the levels of the classes. Just because the eighth grade teacher teaches algebra while the second grade teacher doesn't, doesn't imply that the second grade teacher couldn't teach algebra, or was less smart. Maybe we should respect the Teachers of all the great world religions equally, rather than saying that one is better than another because of what He taught or didn't teach.
One aspect of religion, or of any civilization or culture, is what emphasis is given to individuality. Ancient cultures in which the the whole of society was of a higher priority than the individual members were the ones that thrived and survived. One of the best examples of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole was at the battle of Thermopylae where 300 Spartans willingly fought to the death in order to stop or slow down the Persian army. Dying in that battle was not in their self-interest. So maybe one aspect of religion is to develop community-mindedness, where individuals are willing to sacrifice for the good of the whole. Discomfort in the short term leads to a better future for everyone. All you need is a progressive minded religion where people are not motivated by shame, but by selflessness. I think that Jesus actually taught this, that all the shame was a product of Paul.
But the scarcity brain has been put on steroids in the U.S. where we're taught to be rugged individuals rather than working together cooperatively. The Amish have a lot to teach us about that.
Interesting interview very well done.!
200K. way to go!
200,000❤❤❤❤ Congratulations!!!
Great episode!
Regarding John discovering how difficult establishing a secular community can be as it's missing the guilt and scarcity, I'd say the Unitarians have gotten pretty close. I realize it's a mix of believers and atheists, but I've never heard guilt and scarcity used with them, not even as a way to guilt us into helping others.
Edward R. Murrow, World War II journalist, set standards depicted in the movie 'Good Night , and Good Luck.' Congratulations
Addiction to religion is also a thing.
The opium of the people
My job as an adjunct instructor for the last 20 years operates on the variable rewards system.😕😰
I attemed UU! ❤ in south Florida
I wonder if he wrote for Men's Health after he got sober? As a 'nevermo' but religious with tendency to addition, im really enjoying this.
Dude love these topics. But your podcast introductions are sooo long!
So casinos are cash cows as long as you keep the hotel & food areas clean & well managed. A forever source of major income. Who would fail at that? I mean, unless it’s a front for laundering profits made from drug, weapons & human trafficking, a casino is a guaranteed successful business.
Edit: the place where I work takes advantage of this by having “seasonal” items that are only available for a few weeks. Many of them aren’t even very good, but they sell as if you can’t get them elsewhere or they’re all the best ever. Lolz.
3:00 am? 😢it’ll be a rewatch
Mine say 12 AM. Pacific time.
12pm Utah time now
@@Latter-dailyDigest thank you 🌞
I feel humans are still suffering the side effects of drought and famine. I also believe patriarchy evolved out of drought and famine.
It does seem to have started out of the time when we started farming. But it’s probably more complex than just that. When we started husbanding animals-it would have started to be obvious that men also were a necessary part of baby making, for example.
I think a lot of the current misogyny is based on the fear that women might not need men to reproduce anymore. It actually is possible to create a child from two eggs, supposedly. But it’s a silly fear.😂 Old fashioned baby making is much more fun. And someone has to do the heavy lifting and kill bugs for us😂
I can attest to this diet! Eat as natural as possible without processing and you'll lose weight! But since we are all addicted to processed food, it's super hard to do!
I'm curious? Is Utah's economy benefitting from the Mormon Church's missionary activity around the third world, like a colonizer? Does the Church pull more resources out these countries...via tithing...than it invests in them? Is so, that is unjust.
Good question. And the fact that the church has at least 150 billion dollars makes me sick. They could do so much good but that's not what they are about.
❤
I'll contribute after I spend the next 4 hours figuring what my password is
Watching this while eating a bowl of ice cream … 😬🤦🏻♀️
I had to laugh at the concept of obscure references.. I've known of and enjoyed Conway Twitty my entire life. I have no idea who John Stockton is. 😂
A church should not require you to only attend their services. Christianity should be open and embrace all people. Why the exclusivity, that's shady.
And tribal (nationalism) insanity. Racism. My people are better than yours, and yours are trying to steal our women, our jobs, and our food!!
We are so deeply entrenched in that belief and these ‘leaders’ (political, religious, corporate) use that to control and manipulate us to be actual slaves for them. Until we can really clearly see that as everyday humans, it will continue. Studies are showing that a huge percentage of them are psychopaths. We are and have been allowing the inmates to run the asylum. Needs to stop very soon.
Why exclude non-Christians?
@@harlanlang6556 I fixed it, thank you
My point is why does the LDS Church (for example), teach its members to say "I know "this" Church is true. It's an actual thing they do. Why do so many religions think they are the only true religion? Why do they put pressure on their members to only go to their church? Why isn't religion an interchangeable thing? This is where they all go wrong, coveting members.IMO it gives them way to much control and power.
One of the be theological questions people were asking in the early 19th century was which church is the true church. The logic was that if there's one God, then there must be one true religion. That's why there were many "One true churches". My aunt and uncle belonged to one of those "true"churches called "The Church of Christ" and insisted that only the members of that church would be saved. Fearful people didn't want to belong to just a good church, it had to be the "one true church". I agree with you that Christians should be understanding enough to realize that every Christian might not understand their religion just as you do, but that's okay. We're all different. But Christianity has a history of creating Creeds which spell out a list of beliefs all Christians must at least say they believe. Our Pilgrim Fathers in Boston, in 1659, hanged several Quakers they discovered teaching Quaker beliefs to the Puritans after they were warned not to, that's how Christian they were!@@sew161
Such a random comment but I really like Michael's voice!
Thats so funny. I was listening to the podcast in the other room and my girlfriend was like that guy sounds like a weenie. I was indifferent on his voice myself but that's funny you had such a different opinion.
We could change the weird uncomfortable name “masterbation” Where did that name come from anyway? We could call it solo sex. For short: solo.
Interesting
The anticipation is the thrill you say, but if reward gets less and less and stops completely, then the anticipation would also eventually stop, no?
I enjoy this podcast much more without cohosts
Wheaton is in Peoria, IL. Protestant non-denominational. Billy Graham is an alum. Really, neither of you knew that?
John, I was genuinely shocked by your response and the following discussion regarding your challenges building a secular community as successful as religion. As you were answering what religion has over secular communities, I did not expect you to say guilt and shame. Because anthropologically speaking, that’s not the answer.
I didn’t realize how much pain the Church still has a strangle hold on your heart. Yes, guilt and shame hangs over the heads of all “recovering Christians.” A majority of religions are fine purveyors of both. The Mormon church, Especially.
Guilt and shame are the “ultra-processed” short cut to the evolutionary function of religion. It’s why churches are shedding young people in droves. If guilt and shame were as socially addictive as intermediate rewards, we wouldn’t be seeing a nation wide faith crisis. Which means those AREN’T the true pull of religion over secular communities. But, I can see how yours, (and a great number of people’s,) trauma is so blinding it’s hard to see the actual path.
The deep evolutionary trigger of religion is ritual, tradition, and structure. We didn’t evolve as individuals. One man is eaten by a lion. We only evolved by our ability to form social bonds. Early religion, which was present and naturalistic, kept us alive long enough to be here today. It might not have been called religion back then, but it’s the third pillar of survival to food and water.
Our national mental health crisis can be directly tied to how toxic the organizations we need have become. So of course we’re leaving them, which either leaves us grappling with trauma or feeling along and purposeless from never having community to start.
I thought the example of the military was interesting, but not for the reasons shared. I’ve heard the same comments about ex-soldiers missing battle and horrific things one should never want to return to. However, studies have shown it’s not battle they miss. The military checks every box that satisfies a person’s need for community. It’s not about never having to think for yourself, but there is an intense level of structure. And there’s absolutely ritual, ceremony, and tradition imbedded at every point. Lastly, the strange, silver lining born from the horrors of battle is the camaraderie built between soldiers who endure those times together. It’s the sheer intensity of brotherhood/sisterhood and purpose. It’s also why families who’ve stayed in the military for generations is not only a thing, but a deep source of pride. They are part of something larger than theirselves, with gravitas and consequence.
With that being said, I’ve never had ANY interest in the military. But I get it. I was in Girl Scouts when I was young. I really loved it. Then, one summer in college I got to be a Girl Scout counselor at an outdoor summer camp. I spent 10 weeks living in a platform tent, teaching girls how to make the perfect one match fire, engaging in annual activities and competitions, singing songs long passed down on hikes or by the campfire, and I loved every sweaty, itchy, uncomfortable moment of it. I remember that summer as one of the happiest times in my life. I remember the other counselors, many of which were English speaking internationals who’d come to work and save money so they could backpack the country after camp. I haven’t seen any of them since, but for a summer they were my sisters, and I loved them.
A secular community of purpose with ritual, tradition, and structure is not only possible, but it’s been done. Many times over. How do you create a community like this for those who’ve left the church, looking for a home, and baring deep, open, and painful spiritual wounds? You take what you know and you make it your own. What should post-Mormon Christmas celebrations look like? I don’t know. Start making things up and see what sticks. They can range the full gamut from somber/meaningful to deeply silly. Create a space on-line where ex-mo’s from all over can share their celebrations with each other, spreading ideas and fostering organic growth.
So, a successful secular community of purpose is more than possible. You can keep the good and truth found among many members of the church, and continue that work “in the real world.” I left the church after going to college and leaving my home ward which I now realize was a somewhat “feral” ward in the woods of northwest CT. Out of all the reasons I could list for leaving the church, being gay, coming of age with the internet, becoming a devoted fan of great wine, my primary crisis of faith was this. When I left home, I realized my belief wasn’t in the church but in the incredible community that raised me.
I lucked out. My parents were poor and struggling when I was very young, and the missionaries offered them something they didn’t have. A tight-knit, multi-generational community that would help them make ends meet and raise their family. That’s where I made my longest lasting friends, and was able to learn from and confide in an entire village of adults. Funny enough, several are no longer members either. I think a fair share of us founded our belief on each other without realizing it. Looking back, I understand how funny the complete non-issue of sunstone magazines lying around was. Or how before “central casting” decided wards couldn’t engage in independent fundraisers outside of tithing, we managed to NOT be the weirdos in our hometown by hosting the annual family-friendly, fun for all-ages, haunted house.
I have fond memories of my Dad, jolly like Santa, but with a suit, top hat, ghostly white face, and selected teeth blacked out. Greeting all who entered the haunted house and joyfully posing for photos with the local kids. In CT, Halloween’s a pretty big deal. But there’s not always dedicated spaces for families and young children that go all-out to celebrate. I remember we always advertised the haunted house as hosted by the local LDS branch. It wasn’t something weird or to be hidden. There certainly weren’t a lot of Mormons where I grew up, but people knew us for being honest, trustworthy, and hardworking. Our name on a project meant something, and the community put their trust in us.
I remember the year hearing we’d no longer be putting on this annual tradition. I was old enough to hear that our ward would only be supported by tithes going forward, but too young to consider why the decision was made. I just remember feeling sad about loosing a tradition I looked forward to being part of every year.
Not just looked forward to, but looked forward to being PART of. I might have been 6 or 7, but I was old enough to be given some small job. It made me feel important, and like I belonged.
That, right there, is the cornerstone to creating a community of purpose. We all understand what’s meant by “high demand religions.” And the answers aren’t pretty. But on the side of the spectrum, low to no demand communities/organizations fall apart. A healthy level of demand is the glue that holds that community together. (Double emphasis on the healthy part.) Everyone needs a role to play. A way to contribute. Something to be responsible for. If someone is missing their absence should be quickly noticed and felt. Of course, that needs to balanced by compassion. There are many reasons someone might not able to contribute. And a commitment to receiving those who can’t give has a surprising feedback effect regarding the willingness of those who can.
If you ever end up reading this, here’s a challenge. Beyond your YouTubing, podcasting, and outreach, think about what taking your pain and turning it into a cooperative community of purpose might look like, and find a way to make it happen.
The fact that masturbation is normative (practically everyone does it), is exactly the reason why it must be controlled. It has nothing to do with masturbation being unproductive (not producing offspring), but rather it has to do with the cycle of guilt. Imagine a world where there were almost nothing to tempt human beings, in this case, a religion would lose its tools to keep its member in the group. Without constant temptation and the mental self torture of guilt, there would be no need for forgiveness, and religion as the authority granting forgiveness, would lose all of its power to keep a group together.
Regarding LGBTQ we need to remember that if there is an in group that there has to be an out group. There is nothing like hate and fear to keep a group united. When religion was not institutionalized or non-existent (in the remote past), only survival mattered and and everyone's unique contribution mattered. This idea is put forth in the book "Sex Time and Power" Imagine a in a hunter gather group a child loses his/her parents, but with a gay uncle or aunt unencumbered by their own children, this orphan would still receive the love and food necessary to survive. In the remote past a gay family member would have been the equivalent of having a wealthy relative. JCB
1:02:35 Certainty
And kindle
On this episode of Mormon Stories Podcast: Degenerate gambling pigeons! 55:32
This interview became more about the host and his fight against religious perpetrated shame.
This channel does make a lot of good points and addresses many valid issues, but I feel like it also does paint a false view of the church and its members in many ways as well.
We are not all brainwashed people who don't see or acknowledge the truth when we find it. There are MANY of us now who have noticed the issues with church history, our leaders lying, our leaders not being legitimate, misuse of tithing funds, polygamy not being a true doctrine and so on, and we are very concerned. There is what the church is supposed to be, and what it currently is, and we see that those are two completely different things. I can't go to the temple anymore, neither can my sister or her husband bc of what we have learned and acknowledged isn't right here these days.
I'm also noticing that there seems to be a bitter agenda sometimes with this channel. I see a lot of compassion from you guys which I appreciate. But there is also an agenda. Whether it's you guys or the church leaders, neither of you has presented everything in church history or about the current state of things so that people really can make their own well-informed decisions about what to do or believe. There is a giant chunk of history especially that is left out on both your parts, and it's THE big piece that really holds the power to allow people to make the most well-informed decision they possibly can. I have a hard time believing anyone's claim to full sincerity when they aren't telling the whole story. If you don't tell the whole story its just more control.
The ping 😂
Capitalism is also a kind of religion. The efficiency of binary genders and the small family unit works for capitalist exploitation in ways that the big religions didn’t initially need. Lack of tech meant people had to work in community to survive. After land grabs, that’s when we see religion get co-opted into controlling people with a drive towards a binary, small family set up that depends on being exploited for money, food and a scrap of land to grow some veggies or keep a few animals. Cults wraps up religion with exploitation and really put gender, racism and anti-masturbation ideas to work to tie people into the tiny family unit that can most easily be manipulated into compliances.
I have to disagree with your premises Mr Dehlin. Jesus Christ is our loving creator and He is our Savior and only offers good things to us.
He is merciful and kind, and desires the highest levels of living and power for every person, but this requires laws and certain behavior to achieve.
after watching over a dozen episodes, i wonder if the morman religion places a premium on females with blonde hair?
No, I can’t see that this is fact-based. But while it’s interesting, personal experience tells me, some of his conclusions are simply not as universal as he says.
Us "mormons" will have the last laugh that's fs
Dream on..LOL
And why are you so very sure that you are better than all other people? How selfish and arrogant! Billions of people are wrong and evil somehow, but your group is ‘white and light’ and know all?
And right now, right there in Utah, Idaho, Arizona-there are Mormons killing and torturing children. Sexually assaulting women because they are holy and are somehow ‘allowed’ to do that. Destroying marriages and lives.
Just like in every other place on Earth.
Get down off that high horse and start cleaning up your own house and neighborhood, brother, and once you are actually ‘perfect’ and good luck on that one, you can start laughing.
😂😂😂
bummed. there's very little talk on the actual title topic toward the end of the video