There's a "Bowl of Spaghetti" Under This EV?! Porsche Taycan Hoist Review
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- For the first time ever, we're featuring a Porsche vehicle on Munro Live! Kevin and Armin put a Taycan on the hoist to examine the underbody.
Munro Live is a UA-cam channel that features Sandy Munro and other engineers from Munro & Associates. Munro is an engineering consulting firm and a world leader in reverse engineering, costing, and teardown benchmarking.
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That bundle of spaghetti looks like an attempt at a homemade Octovalve using the ENTIRE parts bin and all the clamps, elbows, hoses and pumps. And an extra gallon of coolant.
Just what I was thinking too. Not what I'd expect to see on a Porsche costing twice what a better performing model S does. Nice interior but badly engineered and terrible software - for Porsche fans only.
COTS FTW
That is what happens when you get pushed to get it done, but you are just out of the prototype stage, so a refined prototype is what you get.
@@bluetoad2668Define better performing
Lmao😂 @homemade
Very informative. Incredible mess at the front. It looks like it was designed by an arachnid *Rube Goldberg.*
well VW fired Herbert Diess , thats why.
now VW group is controlled by Porsche guy.......lol. can we say MAFIA.
The lack of small overlap counter measures is really disappointing, especially in such an expensive vehicle.
Sounds like Porsche assumed nobody would test it.
From the video, it sounds like the expensive vehicles are the least likely to get SORB countermeasures. Due to their low volume and therefore not likely to be tested by IIHS.
ironic, you'd think an expensive vehicle would go above & beyond to keep occupants safer in a crash
All that pipe work so close to the front of the vehicle makes for an expensive repair even in a minor front on crash.
The Porsche badge makes it an expensive repair no matter what.
If you buy Porsche, the cost of repairs should be the least of your concerns. If you worry about cost, you should buy something else.
@@lennyvalentin6485people love saying that but there's no reason consumers should be buying products with such shitty, cost cutting engineering.
@@Robert-cu9bm *Exactly, VW logo and it's a $200 job, take off the VW logo and slap on a Porsche badge then all of a sudden it's a $2,000 job.*
Teslas are no cheaper to repair, aluminum body work makes it an instant write off.
The coolant plumbing was relatively tidy compared to the mess around the rear drive unit. Such a dog's breakfast could be due to poor interaction between engineering groups or overbearing management.
Here is the bin of parts we have, make it work!
Low under the front end is a dangerous and costly place to locate such a maze of cooling valves. Seems like any minor interaction with common road debris could be catastrophic to many systems affected. Here’s hoping they move that system up higher and further back.
This is not exposed like that, There is a undertray they removed to show it. Less exposed then mostt cars oil pan.
I DARE someone to own this after warranty! 💰💸💰💸💰💸💰💸
No issue at least this base spec. Nothing much to worry about.
History has proven you wrong. Tesla on the other hand…
Every piece of plastic on the cooling system will need replacing before it's even 10 years old. Junk.
@@computercrack cracks what u smokin’
@@GTO33 history and personal experience proves me correct. U even own a Porsche Brah?
Good team, yes I see the likeness! Really appreciate the pop-up notes onscreen too! Thank you.
i was WAITING for a teardown of the taycan! I was really thinking what to choose between this and the model s. thank u guys for this!
Simple. Are you a total masochist? If so, buy the Porsche.
@@FutureSystem738 u see those hoses? That screams coolant leak. Checking repairbility is very important. U don't want headaches, regardless of brand.
@@Timeless_Essence I have a friend with a fairly new ICE Porsche. His reliability and maintenance costs are absolutely horrific. He loves my Tesla Model 3P, and is very envious- says his next car will DEFINITELY be a Tesla. He’s about to order a YP any day now.
We can’t get the S & X downunder 🇦🇺 any more 😢
This electric Porsche seems very little better than it’s ICE brethren. It looks as though it’s been cobbled together from the parts bin.
wow, thanks for showing us this!
Our pleasure!
The best Tay-Tech video I have seen yet !! Thanks
You are not being clear imho. Being subtle and kind doesn't help anyone in engineering. Being honest and blunt like Sandy is why I'm here.
This vdo needed Sandy’s fireworks. This was a damp squib
I was the lead engineer for this "bowl of spaghetti" and my father owns a hose and clamp shop. These two facts are unrelated.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
$10,000 in plastic elbows with fiat wiring connectors at road level . i wish the ceo's would let the engineers engineer .
if it works it aint stupid. do you think little Children work at Porsche?
no, i think ceo's have the engineers Hamstrung to the point their own innovation comes to a standstill because ceos want things to break,,, like those 10,000 dollar plastic elbows right there in the perfect spot to be broken , Children would expect better of a company@@computercrack
Base
• Electric
From $90,900
4S
• Electric
From $111,700
GTS
• Electric
$139,300
Turbo
• Electric
$160,800
maybe this spaghetti is the gift with purchase.....
Thanks! Interesting to see the design considerations, all the best
Thanks for watching!
Shocking how much structural bonding Porsche is using on the body, where larger presses & extrusions would save weight and complexity in assembley.
This car encapsulates all that is wrong with German response to Tesla, but it’s amazing what advertising can do.
What's wrong? Porsche has much better build quality, more options to choose from, much better ride quality and driving performance (like going around corners), a working brake system and much more. Tesla does provide a good experience for less money. that's fine but clearly not the best engineering
Err.. weight size efficiency they did a good job of trying to hide the bulk but this car is not better built it is a sad reflection of business as usual in Germany. They need to get with it before the Koreans and Chinese eat their lunch.
@@Holeyguagaamoley lol
Lol? Well it’s right there in front of you.
@@Holeyguagaamoley choosing a design you dont understand the reasons for doesnt mean it's got bad build quality. quite the opposite. it's very solid and has been put to millions of miles of hard test driving before getting released to the customers.
39% denser 😂. That rear end reminds of a first version of model 3's rear. I can't believe Porsche is getting away with such a hodgepodge
The hose chaos immediately reminded me of the Porsche 944 Turbo! One of the first production cars with a turbocharger and a similar mess under the hood. It was also Porsche's first car of that kind, analogous to the Taycan.
Plumbers delight!
In my opinion, the tunnel brace with the casting and four bolts shown at 13:40 is made to keep the tunnel sheet metal from flexing too much. The top pin is able to slide into the opening in the casting at the top. This is a Porsche so they probably did the FEA and spent 1M on that assembly.
The girls want to know, are Munro doing a calender to pay for the CT teardown? 😉
I'll pass on seeing Sandy in bathing trunks.
@@martingardensbut I WOULD pay to NOT see it
A friend of mine has a Taycan that he loves. I don’t think I’ll forward this to him.
why should a driver care if the car performs well? This is mainly for the manufacture on how to reduce cost etc.
DO IT! (Then report back 😉)
@@河粉-k1h
This is TOTALLY due to the manufacturer trying to get a product out of the door.
@@河粉-k1hyou're right but the Model S Plaid out performs it and is about half the price - I guess the customer does care about that.😂
@bluetoad2668 how did your Model S plaid compare with your Taycan? Have you ever driven either car?
Is it just me, or is this whole car an engineering mess? 🤷
Wow !!!! My 1964 Chevy impala SS had a big ass steering wheel with no air bags, a lap belt only and a non padded steel dash !!!! 😊😊😊 God i loved that car !!!! So simple and so cool 😢😢😢😢
"Honey, I *think* I scraped the front of the Porsche today when I dropped off Madeline Kaitlyn and Hannah: there is s strange smell now and something is dripping in the garage can you go see?"
I've never seen so much major league automotive engineers in the comment section lol.
that spaghetti monster looks like those sentry bots that attacked neos ship in the matrix.
gona tell those pipes 2 take the staircase! a bunch of interesting aspects in engineering.. just kidd'n.... crazy great video guy's!! thanks so much! super job!
Compliments to the fact that you are not intimidated by a (historic) brand like this 👌
I am looking forward to Porsches progress in the al new E-Macan comming soon !
Porsche , no longer RELEVANT in 2023 , less LESS than Model X.
Wow please talk more about Porsche!I cant get enough of it!
Ummmm, Porsche is IRRELEVANT in 2023. not even a Contender.......lol.
Nice car
@@markplott4820really? On what planet? Porsche makes som of the greatest drivers cars in the World , and has huge margins on them…
@@GTO33 - the STOCK Tesla model S is a Better TRACK car than any BASE model Porsche.
@@markplott4820 That must be the stupidest comment in UA-cams 20year history.
What, no fainting! Get the octovalue.😅
🤣
Engineering wise is only a Potemkin village at my opinion. You definitely see that it’s no Tesla!
Dogs dinner! Sack the design engineers!
What's strange to me is there are companies converting ICE vehicles to electric (I'm thinking Electric Classic Cars here on UA-cam) that seem to do a much cleaner build than this.
I get that there are issues like collision safety that aren't even considered in EV conversions but i doubt that collection of valves, especially down by the front where they're vulnerable to even a minor collision with a curb when parking, wouldn't fly.
Crude looking engineering. They would be tearing this to shreds if it were a Ford. Munro is giving Porsche a big pass.
Not to give it a pass, but a low volume car design can't afford the high-end engineering like a Tesla. The Taycan works for the market they are in as I doubt 1% of owners have a clue about the engineering behind the sheet metal.
@@tesla_tap Well, the much vaunted "German Engineering" espoused by the Porsche faithful clearly seems missing here. The Porsche 356 and 911 were all low volume vehicles, but demonstrated much more impressive engineering. The Tacan, on the other hand, has probably been responsible for sinking more RORO ships than any other EV.
I’m waiting for the Taycan Mk2 before i seriously consider buying a Porsche ev.
What ever happened to the K.I.S.S principle?
Armin is in good shape. How much benchpress?:)
MUNRO - at end of the day , the Taycan is an Irrelevant ICE based EV w/ a Vibrator sized battery.
its not an Effective vehicle SALES wise.
Cheers guys
Cheers
"Interesting and unique" is a polite way of saying it's a overly complicated mess.
By the time the rear motor was revealed, it was clear that this vehicle was a compromise thrown around a _kludge_ wrapped around an accretion of disparate components.
No wonder a _Porsch-uh_ († Pronunciation matters,) costs so much.
It's not so much designed as evolved by blind and deaf mechanics. Repairs must be hell to execute.
†) *Sia* pronounces _Porsche_ correctly [ ua-cam.com/video/cxjvTXo9WWM/v-deo.htmlsi=tKOZEjggf-u913XE&t=48 ] 😉
Surely the more parts and complexity, the less likelihood of reliability?
The more parts the better right? They spared no expense.
Do we see the quality reflected in the price?
I'd totally love to hear you guys about the question what Porsche could do to shed 300 kgs from a car like Taycan without cutting into their margins too much. Production volume on their EVs is bound to rise, so they can afford more efforts at integration and lightweighting. It's weird that a Model S Plaid is significantly lighter than the smaller battery lower power more cramped Taycan Turbo S. Yes, brakes and luxury matter. But how heavy is that? Could Taycan and 911/Cayman EVs get a carbonfibre tub and hempfibre body? Common carbon battery case? Lighter motors and converters, like Lucid and Koenigsegg work on? Omit the rear gearbox with better spec'd rear motors?
make it a SKATEBOARD bev platform and save 500 lb automatically.
according to Wikipedia the cars are almost identical in weight and size. Taycan 2125-2395kg, TMS 2045 -2402kg.
What was your point again?
@other dude: it already is a skateboard platform. minus the foot garage.
@@computercrack - NOPE, Taycan NOT a Bespoke EV Skateboard platform, its still using ICE Panamara as BASE & has Vestigial transmission tunnel.
Taycan also using very CRAPPY pouch cells.
@@markplott4820 No it's not dude. Taycan has almost nothing to do with the Panamera except the suspension setup with double wishbone. They choose to have the "Transmission" Tunnel for packaging reasons. Just look at photos from the whole setup and you see why, the, put the electronics on top, otherwise they wouldnt have a frunk.
@@markplott4820 also pouch cells are not crappy, they have an excellent volume to energy density ratio
Worth noting that "integration" which seems to be the buzz word of the moment is actually counter productive if without it you still make a suitable profit margin. Porsche are a company famed for contrinuous improvement and a low integration level allows that, ie individual parts can be imnproved, or simply retuned to suit, without a huge expensive tear up. ie once you get your Gigacasting tooled up, that's whaty you are stuck with. If you find that a small camber gain change at the rear wheels delivered by a change to BIW or subframe braces improves the dynamics of your car, with a hghly integrated solution you can't make that change. For Porsche, at low volume (way way low compared to Tesla) and with a much much higher sign off standard for vehicle dynamics, massively integrating is NOT the way to go!
The "fake" rear antiroll bar will be to prevent the rear EDU from moving fowards on one side in a rear impact and hitting the battery. Removing a structural load spreading part like that would have mean't a second crash cert for that model, simply not worth it at these volumes compared to simply fitting a $10 steel bar on the few models necessary.
BTW, if you really want to see the best bit of packaging on the Taycan, check out the front wheel house to bonnest / inner arch zone. How Porsche have fitted such a large wheel and tyre packaging under such a low bonnet line is genuinely world class
😂😂😂😂. You’re a comedian.
Tesla has on site sand casting for molds that enable very quick changes to be made cheaply and tested and remade with the Gigapresses.
That rats nest looks like horrible engineering. If no one saw that something like this can be simplified/integrated then there's not a single good engineer left at Porsche in that team (and not one with a spine enough to speak up in any of the others)
To summarize, “essentially” 😂. Love the video, that word may have been a tad overused ❤
With regard to the suspension, Porsche gets amazing handling results from all their suspensions, including this. Taycan, though heavier and slower than Plaid, is nearly as quick on tracks such as Nurburgring. Could they make it more efficiently and less expensively? Sure. However, their reputation for handling ensures that customers will pay the cost and then some [actually LOTS!].
Aren't Porsche drivers usually primarily motivated by a need to compensate for a small appendage?! Performance and handling are secondary to impressing their mid-life crisis bimbo...
Tesla PLAID S w/ Track package Disagrees.
@@markplott4820Plaid track Pack is only like 13s faster (7:20 vs 7:33) on the Nürburgring with almost twice the power. the Taycan Turbo GT will crush the Plaid
@@computercrack Wouldn't count on it. They already tried with a modified Taycan and failed.
@@Tschacki_Quacki no they didn't. source?
How much would this car cost used and out of warranty ?
That mess looked like a DIY yard sprinkler install, where they didn't have the right parts and just kept going back to Home Depot.
What is the white precipitate/residue that splatter the under belly of the car? Is it coolant?
Really looking forward to next years Macan and Audi Q6 on their new PPE platform.
Why? They’ll be shit just like all the other German EVs. 😂
omg my comment got a shoutout lmao
Poorshit- some people have been paying a lot to drive an upsidedown- bathtub - 911 for a long time - “there is no substitute “ for paying more for less 😅- formula works - til it doesn’t
That is a lot of glue
You guys are really smart but you have to take into account what you're showing and if you might be better served by removing wheels when pointing out suspension components.
Does luxury = crazy amounts of repair points now? This to me loses a TON of value for what is being made nowadays.
"points of potential failure" plus "That's a lot of 10¢ fixings to get rid of"
@@rogerstarkey5390won't be a bunch of 10¢ fixes for the customer, more like $10+ each individual part lol.
U mean engineered failure points?
Is this German Engineering or does every car company use this complicated approach?
Popcorn...is almost ready. This'll be good.
Post Scriptum: Hoary fook, I can poop much more artfully than thou, Porsche.
Afternoon guys
It would appear low ground clearance was not kind to this car. It looks like it has scraped the road many times, which makes me think it is one pot hole away from a major repair
Ah yes plastic plus coolant what could go wrong? *bmws with plastic coolant pipes fucking exploding after aging a bit*
What's sorb?
I just went to the Porsche US website and the Taycan starts at $90,000.
Audi is cutting their etron prices like crazy, so I'm assuming that Porsche is doing the same. 😅😅😅
This is a steal,amazing!
@@brunoheggli2888wait for your total cost of ownership - they'll have you in for service and software updates
A neighbour has one in PURPLE. I think it’s stunningly beautiful. Can’t afford one, but I love the looks. And “Yes” I am shallow…
Wait until you add the options, most others provide for free. Leatehr bound owner's manual is a $500 option. You're likely spend another $20K in options! Still, it's nice they have options like custom paint.
Guys, what about the "Turbo" as described in large letters on the back of the car? Since they forgot to connect the Roll Bar to anything, did they also forget to install a "Turbo"? Oh yeah, that costs double (and is still only a fictional fantasy).
But for god’s sake Sandy! Get a hoist that can lift the vehicles to a decent height! Better for the boys and definitely better for shooting these videos.
The first thing I see is that this car will self destruct from impact with almost anything in the road. A standard UK road calming device will have the ability to rip the whole bottom of it off. The ground clearance is far too small and the vital parts liable for destruction from road object contact. There are visible scrapes already seen on the undertray to bear witness already.
Recent 10k shows Porsche crazy profit margins as the only thing keeping VW alive.
Ego tax
Дивлячись на такий підхід команд професійних інженерів та конструкторів, складається враження, що первинні майстеркласи вони проходили в приміщеннях комуналок, де у кожного жильця своя лампочка, холодильник, кран над ванною (тобто над однією ванною десять кранів). Дуже сумнівно також те, що алюміній не має жодного захисту від корозіі... що вірогідно перетворить цей автомобіль через десять років у гарбуз із шильдиком Порше, але дивлячись на те, як пластиковий захист рухомих елементів задньої підвіски вже по коцаний, скоріше за все така підвіска так довго не живе.
Прикро та боляче дивитись на все це...
A bowl of spaghetti that is deadly, as well? ;^)
Over $92k for this "coo coo clock" design on wheels? This should be on "Fans Only" (i.e. Porsche Fetish Fans Only) 🤣
What is the train tunnell thru the center of the car, they need alot of engineering help...
The more of a supercar something is, the uglier it is behind the covers. There's no room for fancy streamlined designs in low volume production, you have to go to the parts bin.
Also, you can't do offensive SORB in a performance car because it's extra weight.
@@celeron55so is the extra cooling fluid in all those pipes
@@bluetoad2668 That is true. The engineers were probably screaming at other engineers for not having the proper integrated manifold available.
Yeah nice, but what about the bundle of MUSCLES?! Why are all these Munro employees built like professional bodybuilders? Serious question
Kevin.... please stop adding "itself" at the end of every reference to a thing.
My friend sold his Taycan Cross after 5 months because of a constant high pitch sound that he couldn't get rid of.. it was also twitchy and nauseating to drive.. I'm surprised to see the coolant pipes are such a hot mess! Would've expected better from Porsche.
Please analyze the Mercedes EQE sedan next. It seems even more poorly engineered
Looks awesome, but more like bucatini
Makes me curious which competitor requested Munro's services to teardown such a "low volume" car. Accepting Sandy's cost-to-teardown remarks from previous videos, which are in the 1M$ range, wouldn't it need to be one planning an EV which performs with similar performance but at a lower price point / higher volume?
("I'll take one from column 'A' and two from column 'B'" is how many Chinese restaurant menus are structured...just sayin...')
I suspect this *might* be porch doing a "battery revision" and Munro saying "well... The battery is out so why not have a look?"
I bet this is not a car getting a full tear down.
This is probably just being done for UA-cam
Even if there was a customer, maybe it’s to show what not to do 😂
@@Alexzw92 That thought occurred to me as well, but the degree to which they'd already "destroyed" the battery pack, there's no way they'll be able to put Humpty-Porschety together again. Maybe the "customer" was prepared to scrap the car's non-propulsion elements to gain knowledge mostly about the drive train? We'll likely never know...
@@rogerstarkey5390 Possible, but I can't see a precise German manufacturer not including clause(s) specifying what can and can't be discussed publicly. Come to think of it, if the battery teardown were at Porsche's request, seems to me they'd want the results kept for their benefit to gain an advantage over competitors. We'll likely never know anyway...
I haven't owned a German car for 15 years, and won't own one again. The best German cars I bought were an Audi Fox and VW Bug. They are simple, cheap to fix and the cost per mile to own/run was very cheap. I won't even mention tha other disastrous German cars that I did own. For the last 25 years German cars have become more complex and complex. Good engineering is about taking things away until you achieve the functionality you wanted without anything more than needed. Steve Jobs understood this principle.
Yep...after watching this video it confirms my opinion that the German EV/car companies will be some of the first casualties of the EV revolution. Maybe we can call them the Porsche Stage Coach Company because they might be better at making horse drawn wagons than an EV company.
First time the guy looked at a porsche...
Made to self destruct, make more money for repair tecs and parts dept.
Note all the plastic!!
Germán engineering seems to have lost its bearings. Looks like a Volkswagen with a few kits added.
10:57 another driveshaft tunnel on a vehicle without a driveshaft. Using the same old design modified to hold EV parts. 🤮
so next generation we will see a actual ground up design chassis? lol They are just clinching onto there old roots of stuff engineered already in the parts bin. Sad news - Good news is the car itself does great and it could only improve from there by a lot.
Porsche has historically had issues with reliability of coolant pipes on its ice vehicles. For example the 911 is rear engine - but has coolant radiators in the front bumpers, necessitating long cooling pipes and numerous connectors. The connections are a known failure point and common repair. So it’s not surprising to see the rats nest of cooling pipes under the EV.
There's a leak under my car..
What a mess, a very expensive one!
Porsche spends as less as possible in EV and calls it a day.
"Very INTERESTING EXECUTION. I've never seen anything like this. It's very.... uh mmm... INTERESTING. So unique and.... ummm intersting execution."
Engineer jargon for "What the F*CK am I looking at???"
I literally 😂😂😂😂😂'd at your post.
👍
I'll never forget Sandy saying:
"Uhm... seems like the people who designed this, uhm.... didn't have their brains... uhm... functioning in the right way."
You need to get a hoist that goes higher, or shorter employees
... or a recessable walkway unter the hoist. 😀
A foot garage 😄
@@MooseOnEarth that's the most expensive and dumb approach. Do you work for Porsche.
Is that bowl of spagheitti made with PVC pipe, it looks like my last DIY plumbing job
*Don't sell yourself short, I'm sure your DIY was made to last whereas Porsche was designed to fly apart when it's hit by an everyday road hazards.*
If you follow any of the mechanic channels that work on German cars, they warn people to stay away because of the plastic fittings tendency to harden and break. That bowl of spaghetti is a land mine waiting to happen....
To be fair though, you're not getting the same heat cycles as you would in an ICE engine bay
@@AirzonesBlasters The heat cycling is primarily from the liquid temperature... not so much the under-hood air temperatures.
With the exception of a few "Hot V" connections and turbo coolant lines, which are mostly metal in the hot zones, the plastic is the same temperature as the liquid inside... which is hotter than even the hottest engine bay. This is why heater hoses inside the cabin and hoses in front of the radiator (in cool air) fail just as often.
I drive a Porsche and can guarantee that cluster of hoses, valves and connections is a 100% guaranteed problem to whoever owns that car after 3 years.
@@capn_shawn I think you're right that, ultimately, the Porsche spaghetti will fail, but I think @airzonesblasters' point was that EV coolant runs at much lower temps than ICE coolant, which is almost always true.
@@tomwojcik7896 You may be correct, as I know next to nothing of EV cooling loops.
I do, however, build quite a bit of IGBT cooling systems on large electric motors and I can say confidently that with a Permanent Magnet Motor (a motor that has no magnetizing current), the temperature swings on the coolant are directly proportional to the amps going to the motor.
Full load = max heat
No load = zero heat
If it is the thermal cycling that gets the FRP connections to break, I would think an EV would have worse thermal swings than an ICE vehicle that gets hot once and stays hot.
But that is just a guess.
That and the fact that I own both a Mercedes and a Porsche and don't trust Germany's ability to make plastic cooling parts.
Classic German over engineering (not a good thing).
OMG, I thought the Mach E was bad. Even calling it a bowl of spaghetti is being much too nice.