The problem with Tesla's charging system for me is that there was previously one Supercharger station on my 300 mile route. Easy decision. All of a sudden there are 2 more locations on the same route and they're even faster. Arg. So now I have to make decisions. To top it off I didn't even have enough time at the V2 Supercharger to walk my dog. Now I'll have even less time at the 2 new V3 Supercharger locations. My dog is mad. Life is hell... ;-)
Sounds like the solution is to use the V2 charger, walk your dog, and fall back to the V3 chargers if the V2 chargers are not working for whatever reason.
Tesla opened up their network to non-Tesla drivers here in France in 2022. It has made a huge difference to not only prices but the quality of other charging networks. In 2021/22 we were paying €0.79/kWh at Ionity, Total and other networks. Tesla's rates of €0.43 have forced the other networks to reduce their prices which are now in the
Dinners in France are great too. Breakfast is fine but generally it's not what Americans are accustomed to, unless they are in an establishment which caters to Americans.
I noted the point about infrastructure in the UK. 95% true, but you need to interview Toddington Harper of Gridserve. That is a UK charging infrastructure company that is doing things right. Gridserve has bought up a lot of the old locations, along with creating their own mega charging centres and putting in the latest technology and comforts. I have charged my car at one of their centres and it is next level. Don't forget the name.
Everyone else is double the price of Tesla though. I cant believe nobody has matched Teslas price here. Nearest supercharger is 15 mile from me! I have a LR M3 only had it a week, so far I have used a GeniePoint 50kw that is 50 meters away from from where I live, signed up to Electroverse so now its 65p per Kw.
@@usefulrandom1855 Yes, I agree. Everyone else is much more expensive than Tesla. The answer I was giving was more to do with quality and reliability, which Tesla has stood alone on. Gridserve UK is easily the best non-Tesla charging network. I only wish there were more of their centres. Tbf though, I hear that Fastned is excellent too, though I haven't used any of their facilities yet.
As for cross country charging, Tesla is the only game in town. Plenty of owners have easily gone from coast to coast using the Tesla Supercharger network. There are many routes one can take too, if you want to do some sight-seeing on the way. It's great that non-Tesla owners can enjoy easy EV travel once they get on the Supercharger network this year.
So far only about three dozen SC stations have been opened to non-Teslas. I think the opening is going to be done in a measured way to lessen the chances of congestion. They also have to lengthen the charge cables otherwise those non-Tesla EVs with charge ports in the left front will take up two spaces to charge, that will cause severe conflict with Tesla drivers.
There are still a few ‘dead zones’, areas where SC stations really need to be put in. Examples are around central Wyoming (need a station in Cody) and in SE New Mexico where Carlsbad Caverns National Park is located. Several others in rural open areas with small towns or cities.
@@Chainyanker007 - True - but Tesla is installing new locations at the rate of 27 per week. Also, there are a few areas without gas stations nearby - compounded by the decline in the number of gas stations every year. It is expected that 80% of gas stations will be gone by 2035.
I have owned a Tesla for 2 years. Except when on road trips, I never need to go to a Supercharger. I charge at home. There is simply too much focus on range anxiety, and charging rates. I know that today, not everyone can charge at home, but it will never be as much of a problem as ICE cars where none ever refuels at home. It was slightly mentioned but a key point is that "filling up" is something that ICE cars do, not EVs. The first question I get from ICE car owners is "How long does it take to fill up?" My answer is that I never fill up. With an EV the goal is to keep the battery low because charging is faster, so I never "fill up" on a trip.
My "fill-up" takes 5 seconds. I plug in when I get home. When I leave the next morning I always have a "full tank" which costs me zero (I use solar). I never have to hunt every week for a gas station, wait in line to get to a pump, standing out in the freezing rain pumping and breathe in carcinogenic fueling fumes and then paying $90 for the hassle.
I disagree, you're only solving the easy case when you do that and you'll quickly plateau on buyers and never make a mainstream product. Any vehicle on the road can handle the easy cases near home. You're not selling anyone anything by doing that. You sell on capability not just practicality. You need to show that the vehicles are capable of all the edge cases even if there is a minor trade-off in convenience. That's what the market wants to see. You need to show it can at least do it and until the infrastructure is there, that's just not the case. Even in Tesla land there's still areas of my state that are impossible to get to and back without level 2 charging and with major pre-planning required. In CSS land, it's even worse, forget about those trips. And it's clearly visible in the sales of CCS vehicles. It's not just the vehicles that is hurting their sales. Infrastructure needs to be there and buyers can see where these vehicles are falling short. And If what you said is true, everyone would have bought Leaf's and i3s because those cover almost all those cases too but the market clearly isn't looking for that. They want something with minor trade-offs that offers them all the capability they're used to with some additional advantages (whether that be financial, performance, status, or whatever). It's like people criticizing truck owners for buying a truck based on towing specs and driving trucks when they're "empty", like the 300+ days a year they're not towing their trailers they're just supposed to park the thing. No, they bought it to cover all their uses because buyers choose a vehicle to cover all their needs, not just the easy ones. Nobody wants to buy a 60k SUV for their family and get asked to go along on a trip and have to say, sorry, our car can't make that trip, the infrastructure and charging isn't good enough. They won't do it and they'll buy something else.
@@tazeat I am not sure that this was directed at me. I am not selling anything. I made my decision to buy a Tesla based on my use case. Besides, we also own a Yukon, so occasionally there are times when it fills the gap. The point I was attempting to make is that EV charging is different than fueling ICE vehicles. It can be done at home. Recently I have noticed apartment complexes that have charging stations for residents. That's a process that will take time. People who can charge at home will not be competing for charging spots as much. There are no SCs in my city, nearest is 10 miles away. I don't care at all as I would never use it anyway. The only time I will be competing for charging stall will be on road trips. With the road trips that I have taken, I have yet to stop at a SC location that was full. This will only improve with time.
@@rp9674 I don't really bother with that. I might increase the 80% limit to 90%. Ultimately, a few percent doesn't really help much, and in some ways hurts. Road trips work best with the battery SOC being held low. The SCs are where they are and a little extra charge in most cases doesn't help.
I'd love to see chargers set up like gasoline pumps with 2 or 3 grades. Imagine needing some time to eat and rest and being able to just charge "regular" at 60 KW for $0.25, or "Plus at 100 KW for $0.35 per KWH. Those in a hurry could just select "Super" for $0.44 per KWH and get 200 - 300 KW.
The key to public charging infrastructure is level 2 charging, not DC fast charging. Fast charging is just a fraction of the demand for charging. Trying to hook up more and more, faster and faster DC chargers is not the answer to the problem when demand is there mostly during rush hour. Those people should have charged at home before rush hour and charge again at work after rush hour. The battery contains enough juice to make it through rush hour.
I'd like to see more public L2 up to 48a & long term parking L1 at job parking, airport parking, park & rides, etc. Not everthing is road trip fantasies.
Tesla’s SC network in China has been growing amazingly fast in the past 3-4 years. In most places outside of N. America the SC stations are open to all EVs, this is slowly happening in N. America. Tesla does not want excessive crowding at the stations so are proceeding to open up stations in a measured way as more and more stations become operational.
For peak demand issues, Toms ideas are sound and the market will find other ways to mitigate. Onsite solar will definitely help especially if the local utility either puts them in it self or buys excess as additional grid capacity.
Also it would be awesome to have a code where new apartment buildings and condos would have to install at least a level 1 capable charger at each resident parking space and a certain percentage of level 3s per total residents for folks who need a quick top up. I essentially trickle charge from a level 1 and it meets nearly all of my daily driving needs over time. We have level 2 chargers at work which really helps also especially during the winter.
Contact your governor & mayor. California state law (Civil Code section 1947.6) requires landlords to approve tenant requests to install EV charging stations in their dedicated parking spaces so long as the tenant is willing to pay for the charging station and associated costs, including installation and utility costs.
What sort of person thinks it is 'awesome' when governments codify ways to force people to spend money? Shameful totalitarian thinking. If you want a charging station, you are free to install one. Why would you demand your neighbor be forced to buy one???
Before long, instead of a "parking meter" you'll have a charging station which gives you power, and sends a small "parking surcharge" to the local authority, taken "off the top" of the profit going to the charge provider. (I suppose ideally that would be the local authority??) . Simple for you, simple for the authority/ provider. . If you drive somewhere, to do something, the time you spend will generally reflect the time and effort you spent to get there... . You're not going to drive an hour for a 5 minute shop. . If that's the case, you will (again generally) be able to "browse charge" a similar amount of energy to the amount you used to get there without resorting to DC fast chargers. .
Totally agreed there is a huge problem with charging and perceptions. Having a lot more level 2 or even level 1 chargers where people are parked for long periods of time is the answer. My workplace put in over 50 new level 2 charging spots when they redid the parking lot at our building and they always work no matter what the temperature is (chargpoint level 2s). Lots of folks bought BEVs and PHEVs because of this. Before this I had a level one charger I would plug in at some 120V outlets at the back of the building with a few other PHEV drivers. Movie theaters and malls would be perfect candidates for this also!
It will be interesting to see how the new IONNA network rolls out since it's a 7-carmaker joint venture... It needs to be standardized, simplistic and everywhere...
I think in the US the problem is also the charger hardware. In Germany most of the chargers are made by Alpitonic or Kempower. These are working most of the time.
Tesla needs to charge a surcharge for off brand models and use the money to build up the network. First add then upgrade existing stations. People should usually charge at home overnight. Tesla should try to squeeze out the the other "charging stations". I have heard many video reports saying other "charging stations" like Charge America are very unreliable. This is useless. The purpose of a charging station is to be able to complete long trips.
I'm sure that non-Tesla EVs will pay more for juice than Tesla cars will. When those non-Tesla drivers find this out they may decide just to buy a Tesla next time around.... especially apartment dwellers who have to use superchargers on a regular basis.
@@suggesttwo Yep! Why I own a model Y. Tesla is simply the best.... period. That is why they have only 15 days of inventory when most other cars makers are now in the 100s of days. When people actually take the time to shop around, like I did, and compare bang for the buck......Tesla wins every time on things that count... range, handling, superior software, acceleration, interior cargo space, etc..... hands down. And of course... long distance charging station availability and reliability.
Driving my Tesla in California you see many 20-40 stall Tesla charging stations. Tesla navigation tells availability of stalls and when you should charge on a trip keeping in the 20-80% charging zone for fastest charging. Non Tesla chargers are typically 1-3 stall with no advance warning if working or not or availability. Lots of surprises. Many non Tesla chargers in sketchy areas and not close to restaurants
The non-Tesla networks had a shot until, after Tesla posted Magic Dock pricing at near 0.50/kWh, the non-Tesla networks followed suit and jacked their prices to the same lofty prices. What are the non-T network operators thinking - charge the same price for less reliable, lower density (#/site, # of sites), older equipment. Once Gen4 SC’s are more frequent, non-T providers will be busting prices or see use rates fall drastically. I like Tom’s idea: pricing levels for different charging rates. Folks with time or a natively slower charging vehicle can have a good experience without paying top tier prices.
A couple of comments towards the end got me to thinking. RE: Solar canopies for charging stations. OK - so people arrive at work and park their car. Why not have a solar canopy to charge the vehicle while they're at work. When they get home they plug their EV into the house and supply their overnight energy needs. RE: Charging while grabbing a bite to eat on a road trip. Remember Sonic? AKA drive in burger joint. Park you EV, plug it into the charger, teenager roller skates out to your car with your order, roll down the window, food tray hangs off the window, chow down while your car does the same🙂
BEV adoption isn't going to have a "hockey stick" curve, it will more likely be a sigmoid (S) shape that will plateau at some point well before 100% because there will always be a segment of the market for which pure BEVs and fast-charging will never be good enough no matter how much better they get. For that last 30-40% of the market, it'll have to be something like ethanol-extended BEVs. Also, imagine a large-scale grid outage or Iceland which has a national call for reduced power consumption to prevent the whole grid from collapsing from people having to use electric heaters after lava destroyed steam pipes used for heating. If everyone only has BEVs, nobody can get anywhere because BEVs would waste most of their range just getting out of the affected area to charge. With fuel-powered vehicles, you can send tanker trucks in, fill ~1000 cars per tanker per trip and run fuel station essentials on a ~10kW generator. Maintaining a fleet of fuel-powered vehicles will become a matter of national security. Can't depend on a single energy source for everything.
Electricity is a multi source fuel, you can make it dozens and dozens of ways, including from fossil fuels. Localized solar into batteries is the most robust energy source there is. We have seen refinery outages or blockades paralyze liquid fuel networks, they can be quite fragile, but a lot of effort goes into making your local gas station a reliable source of energy, so most people don't think about it.
Or in an emergency you can send 20 busses to evacuate ~1000 people. I am not sure why you are citing power emergencies as a check against BEVs when they are inherently load shedable. Having lots of BEVs that can stop charging *immediately* (or even supply power back to the grid if V2G ever takes off) makes the grid MORE flexible, not less.
@@brushlessmotoring Distributed solar may sound nice in theory but when the grid is down, you cannot easily get it where it is needed. Also, solar is only available during the day. If you want energy from it to still be available at night, you need massive batteries. With liquid fuel, you can get tanker trucks wherever they are needed to get things moving again as long as roads are driveable. Gasoline and diesel aren't the only options either, most fuel-injected cars will run fine on E90 with little more than injector table tweaks. Also, ethanol can be made from cellulose waste, albeit not as efficiently as sugar cane or corn using current technology. A typical gas station has 200 000+L worth of total storage, which is about 7.2 TJ worth of energy. Using a 40% efficient constant-power generator (Mainspring makes 45% efficient free piston linear generators, I'm using 40% to account for inefficiencies scaling down from 200kW to 20kW for a generator-extended EV), that is 800 MWh worth of electrical equivalent. You'd need 80x 40' containers worth of batteries to replace one single gas station with an equivalent amount of battery buffer storage. Every gas station that you remove is a heck of a lot of very convenient potential energy that is no longer available.
@@teardowndan5364 you are still thinking centrally, not distributed. Look at Australias uptake of rooftop solar, no shipping containers of batteries to a gas station are needed. In my lifetime I’ve seen many liquid fuel disruptions, blockades of refineries, pipeline software hacking (remember that one) or just demand spikes emptying filling stations for miles around (eg hurricane evacuations in Florida) - you are thinking about electricity in liquid fuel terms, and that’s missing a whole realm of new possibilities beyond a gas station - at the end of the day, if you can get liquid fuel anywhere, you can turn it into electricity more efficiently than putting it into a combustion engine. Look up the Australian Outback diesel EV challenge they did - the EVs went further on the diesel via an efficient generator than the diesel vehicles did by putting it into a tank. Your arguments about the flexibly and remoteness of fossil fuel distribution apply to EVs too, because EVs can use any fuel, without modification, not just one or two liquid fuels that have to be trucked in. You can power an EV from gasoline, diesel, propane, natural gas, coal, geothermal stream, solar, wind, tidal, run of river, a spin class at a fitness centre, wood pellets, hydrogen, rainfall, snowmelt …. and I believe we are working on energy beams from space too! And yeah, the sun doesn’t shine at night, so. charge your batteries during the day, or fall back to a fossil generator, a 25% fossil powered EV is 4 times better than a 100% fossil vehicle, the idea we use EVs not being 0% fossil fueled to continue 100% fossil driving is reductive, the Nirvana fallacy in action.
@@jamesphillips2285 If your busses are also electric, their ability to participate in evacuation efforts will be proportional to how much battery they had left when the mass outage occurred. Also, when you have a car you can drive in an evacuation, you can bring whatever you can stuff in your car on short notice with you instead of leaving everything behind to get on a bus. For V2G and consumer grid-tie inverters to work, they need to be reading a clean reference signal from the grid and adjust their inverters accordingly. If the signal is distorted due to the grid being on the verge of collapse, stand-alone grid-tie inverters will be forced to disconnect due to unstable reference signal.
I drive an Model3 since 2019 in N and had never huge problems, not even on non Superchargers, because Teslas have like other EV CS2. In 2019 the distance between 2 usual chargers were less than 150km. Together with the Supercharger network, I had a charger every 70km. Since then gas stations have become charging stations with connected shops to buy a coffee, cake or a sandwich. The only issue since then was when temperatures went under -10C, non Tesla chargers give max 70kW. This business is capital intensive and it's looking like the operators of chargers in the US decided to run chargers on the lowest maintenance level as possible.
Just take a look at the last 4 years. Since COVID the number of EVa has exploded. I have been driving EVs for 9 years and the amount of growth over the last four years is astounding. The problem now is not so much being able to drive across country (though there are still some charging deserts) the problem is in populated area with lots of EVs there aren't enough chargers. Many places there are wait times now to get a charger and it's not just on holidays. There are a lot of challenges for sure which will eventually get worked out. The next five years will be very exciting indeed. Lastly, the news media hating on EVs will stop really quickly if we have a spike in gas prices. Could be on the horizon if things in the middle east continue to intensify.
Had a Tesla charging experience when only 3 out of 8 stalls worked. Had to wait for > 1 hour to charge. It's still a bottleneck, and customers don't need more than once of this kind of experience to turn away from EV.
In my experience Tesla superchargers always work. And if one out of a dozen happened to be down the car lets you know in transit. How many are up? How many are currently available? Soon, how many are projected to be available when you arrive?
I am an electrical engineer. Electronic systems are fragile when compared to mechanical systems. Moisture, temperature, and vibration take a disproportionate toll. Making rugged and robust electronic devices is very expensive. A consumer-grade potentiometer for example may cost $5 --but the industrial grade might be $190. Its a different world.
Many Tesla superchargers are supplemented with solar and battery storage. This helps with electric outages as well as keeping charging prices lower than competitors. I have not noticed solar panels or battery storage at non Tesla charging stations.
There is absolutely no technical reason for EV chargers to be less reliable and harder to use than a gas pump. Industrial systems have solved the same problems decades ago. The reason EV charging is such a poor experience is purely a business decision. Personally I think everyone except Tesla is just in the charging business to harvest personal information from high value consumers.
Maybe there should be a government "assessment" of that reliability? . I would expect government (local or national) to see the network as an opportunity for revenue and an essential service. As such, if they truly "govern" they should aim for the best, cheapest and most reliable system, to the point of mandating that if a provider doesn't meet the standard they have 2 choices. . 1) Leave the network. . 2) Either purchase the most reliable unit available to be maintained by their staff, or lease that unit with service cover.... . A couple of issues... One is obvious. There's "friction" between the provider of that reliable system and Government (don't be naive expecting that to improve in 2025) . The second, if the "Failing'' company does use the best unit, but sticks to their business plan, at sometimes double the price of the "best" provider, the customer still won't use them. . One possible solution. . Suggest to others (including vehicle manufacturers) that they may want to build those units under license. . They get branding and association with a working network (important!) . They get a reliable unit (assuming their build quality is up to par) . They get charging revenue. . They get "incentive benefits" from any grants on offer. (Let's face it, they need every dollar they can get at the moment!... May save the Government (tax payer) from bailing them out??) . How about "The company which designed the unit"?(😉) . They could get to the contract to provide battery backup at these locations, potentially worth more than the charging since the batteries would be used for energy arbitrage in quiet periods (much of the time) . Government? Would get a working charge network (and would probably claim credit...) They may save the Cash, complexity and embarrassment if another bailout. They would also see an improvement in the energy grid. . Seems like a win for all concerned?
I am in the UK. So far, using Zero DSR for 3.5 years, I have had no issues a quick phone call could not resolve. Now have an MG MG4 and ordered my new Zero DSRX. Most of my charging has been with Tesco / podpoint or BP charging. Now have a home charger as well.
As a fellow republican who just bought a m50, we’re definitely on that inflection point of the hockey stick. The reason? Tesla locking down the charging standard to massively increase the ability to recharge on a trip and massively increase competition which will benefit everybody involved.
A 110Vac outlet for a level 1 charger in every overnight parking spot would help more. Only 30-60 miles/night for most EV's but that's plenty to keep up with most people's weekly driving.
@@martylawson1638 Agreed. Apartments could put those in covered parking pretty easily. Uncovered would require weather proofing. Their biggest concern is how to pay for the electricity use and how to ensure it is used by the correct person..... especially if they bill by the number of KW/hrs used. I'm sure there are solutions out there.... whether the solutions are economical and simple enough is the question. I'm thinking a physical security key that turns on the outlet... then all power drawn through that outlet is the responsibility of the renter who has that key. If they forget to lock it after they disconnect then they pay for that mistake if someone else uses power from it.
@@rogerstarkey5390 You are right.... that has to happen too. However the OEMs have already signaled that they are giving up. Oh they say that they are just scaling back until there is more demand. However there never will be more demand for their over priced and under featured cars. Without going full hog into EVs they will never learn how to build them at scale economically so they will never be competitive and they will always lose money on them. Ergo, the OEMs have actually already announced their deaths. They now will just milk the money that they can and wait to die whilst their "C suite" execs cash in and get out before the stockholders get wise.
@@nickmcconnell1291 Lots of existing solutions for billing. A key-card to "unlock" the outlet would be plenty. Assigned parking spots would also work. Wire into each appartment's meter etc. Ideally the building would have a central controller to schedule charging to limit peek power draw reducing cost to the building, but that doesn't mater to renters.
One unfortunate downside I've been seeing is the huge increase in electricity costs. When I bought my first Tesla in 2018 I could find superchargers for 07 cents/kwh. Nowadays, 30-50c per kwh is the norm. I hope someone will hold the line on charging costs.
40% USA population no garage for vehicles gas or electric. EV’s totally dependent on charging station in that case. Monitor for major storms and charge up and gas up before hand as power outages prevent gas pumps from working
I second that. In the US DC power infrastructure is pretty poor. But I live in Ontario Canada and here it is awesome. Never had a problem and in Quebec it's even better. Mostly CO2 free energy. Had to go to Detroit and took my wife's Hybrid car. Not because I was afraid of broken charging stations but I thought if I get car jacked they can have that piece of sh*t Hybrid. But Detroit turned out to be a pleasant city and I had a really good time there. I will be back.
One of the MAIN problems? You can't pay at the charger with a Point Of Sale system. You have to give access to your credit card...to DOZENS of different unregulated non-bank entities. And their e-commerce servers are slow as molasses. Tesla is no different, aside from taking a chunk off tour card right from the beginning. Considering all the different electrical systems bring serviced, it's amazing more non Tesla EVs haven't gone up in flames trying to charge at Tesla sites.
Shell charges $.65/kwh makes for good headlines about how expensive charging is… articles have shown how it’s more expensive to charge a hummer than gas up an economy ICE car so maybe not a conspiracy but convenient…
2:46 I guess Munro really did turn into a Tesla fan site rather than a legitimate resource on EV news and topics. As someone with a similar level of experience and history with EVs as Tom, here's my response: Tesla is woefully behind at this point. You say 10 steps ahead; I say they might be 10 steps behind with no clear pathway to catching back up. They no longer have the longest range EVs. They no longer have the fastest charging EVs. In fact, they only have one EV in the Top 10 in terms of relative charging speed. And the Superchargers themselves are in the process of shifting from being Tesla's biggest asset to being their biggest liability. Here's why: You acknowledge the issue with a lack of 800 V architecture, but the issues with the Superchargers goes deeper than that. They are designed for Tesla EVs, which again, are no longer the fastest charging EVs. The average power per stall at a V3 site is only 90 kW, and that's only if Tesla didn't exceed the power drop for the site, which they have done. Granting access to non-Tesla EVs means that those sites are not only going to be overtaxed on stall count, they are also going to be overdrawn in terms of charging power. That means the queues are going to be even bigger and even longer. No one cares about 99% reliability if it takes 45 minutes to an hour to access a stall every time you need to charge, especially when there are open stalls, ready to be used at a competing charging provider's nearby site. There's also a question of compliance and funding. Right now, Tesla is the largest award winner for NEVI funding; however, their chargers don't meet the technical specifications required under NEVI (so again, they're not even getting to the stage where their superior reliability matters). As we've already seen in California, Tesla is ready and willing to abandon millions of dollars in funding rather than fix or upgrade their equipment to comply with regulations and requirements. Specifically in North America, between ChargePoint (Mercedes, Volvo, Walmart, etc.), EVgo (GM-Pilot-Flying J), IONNA, and even Electrify America's >97% uptime 4th Gen equipment, Tesla's Supercharger Network is in serious trouble. It's going to literally require billions of dollars just to be competitive, let alone to break into the Top 3 charging providers in terms of customer experience and satisfaction.
The Supercharge/DC infrastructure is poor everywhere. I know that its bad in most of the UK and still in its infancy here in Australia. My guess is 15 years minimum, as far more EV's are being sold then the charging Network upgrade can handle...at this stage. We are seeing more and more EV's coming out with greater range beyond 500km or 300 miles. Some are already capable of a true range of 700km+. As these become more common, they will reduce the demand on the charging Network as this kind of range will get people to and often to and from their longer destinations. So on the road charging demand will reduce for these.
I see at least three problems with the current changing network: land, people, and power. In theory these elements should be an advantages to BEVs. The current system requires a minimum amount of land (no large subsurface fuel tanks); no people on sight (all processing is self-service), and there is no commodity market influencing the product cost (utilities have stable source for generation). The hidden constraints are: the land is generally of a rental nature, Human interaction requires remote support (call centers) and distributed maintenance and repair structures similar to support structures found in water and gas utilities, and an infrastructure support build-out in the electric power generation utilities. Also, not to mention that the charging station is just another fuel center but with a different type of fuel. This means that the product''s price will include the transportation (state and federal) taxes collected the same as gasoline. Consider the current convenience store structure as a partial solution. From what I understand, the gasoline product is an "attractive hook" to draw customers to the convenience store. The convenience store structure provides the people support, eliminating call center type support currently being used, and can assist in local trouble shooting, The store already has the land committed providing a fueling location. The convenience store then becomes a "transition" from one type of fuel to another type of fuel. I have already seen a local Shell convenience store being fitted with electrical charging stations. Consider this as a sign of things to come. Lastly consider geothermic power generation as a substitution for oil, By taking advantage of the evolution in shale oil exploration, now instead of looking for deposits of oil, the search is for deep locations of abundant heat. This is like replacing oil with heat, and eliminating the the "oil refining process". The geothermic heat is not limited to a surface type of heat pools found in volcanic areas. Geothermic heat can source from deep below the earth's crust. Using the tools of shale oil processing, according to the advances in shale oil exploration, a new shale site can be set up and running within a few weeks. Therefore the amount of time to add new electric power generation would take less time than building a traditional power plant, and take up less land area. Geothermic electricity can be implemented, with smaller cost, as an interim power source, for nuclear fusion energy,.
Best value for the money for both Y & 3 cars and super charging. Can't beat em so join em, almost every major car maker will use a Tesla NACS plug in the near future.
USA forgot to build battery factories and charging stations. Tesla msrp helps pay for its private charging stations. MOST public stations only slow level 2, 3-19 kw. Most public level 3 DC fast chargers only 50 Kw rare to find 100 kw let alone advertised 350kw. All Tesla charging stations are level 3 not 2. 130-250 kw. We need more level 3 at least 130 kw especially with the larger truck batteries. Most companies but their battery packs from expensive 3rd parties in China and Korea, no profits. We need USA battery factories
Running the numbers it will take until 2080 to finish up the interstate highway system. With that just being the highways, not including small cities and towns.
Tesla network in a few weeks will open to Ford EVs. By the summer, probably at least half of non-Tesla EVs will have Supercharger access. Infrastructure reliability story will be very different by the end of 2024.
Tesla cars and charging stations first generation seems to work so well vs legacy auto. GM still struggling with software Lyriq and now Blazer EV. I remember what NASA said about space X, THOSE BOYS KNOW HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE. Tesla builds both and knowledge from flying spacecraft with return to earth automated. Tesla has its own chip, own 4680 battery, streamlined production, and battery maker for the grid. I believe Tesla still the only company both FOTA AND SOTA OTA. Many competitors offer SOTA but mainly for infomat system. Tesla navigation innovation with their charging stations first class. Competition charging stations with complicated apps and credit cards.
This entire podcast seems to be built around a snuck premise that the public charging infrastructure is "bad" and "unreliable," but I think that premise itself needs to be examined. We need to keep in mind that the largest, most vocal population talking about the poor public charging infrastructure reliability don't even use public chargers as their primary network; they use the Superchargers. So how much should we actually be listening to people who have little to no first-hand experience on the topics they are discussing? We do know just based on the data that Electrify America is the least reliable national network, but as EA President and CEO Barrosa noted, their usage numbers dwarf the other public charging providers. We wouldn't be seeing that level of use on the EA network if it was anywhere near as unreliable as people claim. As Tom noted, if they aren't working, people will go elsewhere, but so far, non-Tesla EV owners are still relying almost exclusively on the EA network. The bigger takeaway, though, is that EA is not synonymous with "public charging infrastructure," and there are many other charging providers. As for Tom's claims about the other networks, I'm not sure where he's getting his data. It seems like it might mostly be based on anecdotal experiences. Based on the data, ChargePoint and EVgo (the two other major national networks) are far more reliable than Electrify America, though EVgo has increasingly become the target of vandalism, which according to NEVI standards doesn't count toward charger downtime when assessing reliability. I know Tom is in a region where most of EVgo's original hardware is pushing 10 years of age, but I wonder whether he's taken the time to travel to some of the newer EVgo sites with modern DCFC equipment.
Don't count your chargers till they are energized. Tesla chargers have not been fully road tested yet. I live near a beta testing Tesla Super Charger that has the Magic Docks. I have had zero success charging there. Tesla is going to run up against the same issues other charging networks have. Every make and model of EV seems to have their own take on the charging communications protocol. All the CCS may have the same basic vocabulary but are all speaking with different accents. Tesla chargers have only ever had to speak one. Now they speak a few of the more expensive EV makes and models. Non Tesla EVs have to use an app to initiate and pay for the charge. It is going to have to deal with all sorts or different banks and credit cards. I predict current Tesla owners are going to be pissed as seeing all these new EVs taking up charging spots and some have to take up two spots. More charger usage means more wear and tear on the chargers. We will see how long Tesla's wonderful reputation lasts once they are opened up to all EVs. I for one will be buying a NACs to CCS adapter within the first year or so even though I don't have as rosy outlook as many do.
Electrify America is owned by the US VW corporation which is owned by VW group in German. Why is it so hard to believe that VW has little motivation to make their network work?
High inflation and high interest rates have caused LOT ROT, many dealership lots overstocked . Cars sales are down USA vs Europe and China with EV’s leading. USA needs to continue pushing EV’s or the world will jump ahead. 2008 Big 3 bankruptcy trying catch up to global vs just fleet sales. 1970 oil embargo Japanese fuel sippers vs Detroit Muscke cars. History repeats itself this time EV vs gas. China is ahead with world’s largest battery factory CATL. Their new LFP battery state of the art, M3P. No cobalt or nickel
What use is an EV on a long journey without a reliable, convenient charging network? Which EV manufacturers thought through how to make the whole EV experience work and so, continue to build their own network in each geographic market they enter? Answer: Only Tesla. Which manufacturers ignore charging networks? Answer: All of the rest. Obviously, Tesla also realised that if they had to rely on 3rd party networks, that Big Oil, legacy automakers and auto dealers could quietly invest in charging networks and use them to kill off the whole EV trend by overcharging for electricity, letting their installations fall into disrepair and making it difficult for EV users to pay for and use them. Sound familiar?
To me, this is why everyone is pulling back from EVs… because the Tesla charger deal won’t be in full force until ALL their cars have the Tesla plug in 2025 at the soonest! This is also why EVs are sitting on dealer lots because the cars have no place to charge! Sure they can use some Tesla chargers now, but it’s not enough. People get kinda pissed when they can’t charge. The epic failure of all the other auto manufacturers, no charging network.
I don't care how wonderful Tesla is. You never want to give a company a monopoly on anything, because they will gouge on price and get lazy on updates, both to the car, the charging network, the parts, whatever.
When Teslas lithium refinery opens it will be great. China is the world’s largest importer raw materials. It refines 60% lithium of the world as well as rare earth metals.
I would like to believe non-Tesla chargers will become more reliable but I just don't think it is possible. Tesla owns the whole charging experience. They build the charger, install it and maintain it. On the other hand, non-Tesla chargers usually involve 3 or more parties.There is too much finger pointing to get anywhere close to Tesla.
There is nothing stopping a charger manufacturer from offering what Tesla is offering. They sell you the charger and collect a maintenance fee to ensure they stay running.
This interviewee seems stuck in the liquid fuel, 'fill up at empty' past, a large chunk of ev charging is done overnight by people who live with charging at home, it's 90p/kWh for motorway fast charging, 50p on Tesla network, 25p at home, or 5p at home overnight when demand is at its lowest, it's not petrol, people will not wait until they are empty to charge, they will charge when it's cheapest, basic economics...!
Not sure how Tom can say that we don’t have a Solid, Stable charging infrastructure, Tesla is that Structure - all other companies need to kick into a Tesla NACS charger network kitty and build it out to the point of Pilot, Wawa, Buc-ees charging points. What is missing are the 6 stall charges located in smaller non-highway centric places for work vehicles to be able to charge or top off during a busy drive day.
Do you want Tesla to have a greater market share of charging infrastructure because that's how you get Tesla get a greater market share of charging infrastructure. (Oil Industry Conspiracy)
Conspiracy theorists give conspiracy theories a bad name, there are real conspiracies and real theories, they're just rare. IONNA could be a collection of the unmotivated more than a conspiracy.
The whole amp ratings, kw ratings, etc on chargers is pretty dumb. Average consumers don't know what the hell they're doing or what any of that means. It should have just been red handle, blue handle. All cars can use the blues, high power cars can use the reds or blues or something and have industry standards on what each level is and what they're required to output. The problem is this early you dont want to codify too many things and stifle innovation.
Legacy auto has been around 100 years vs electric around 10 years. It will take time. China is 10 years ahead. Look at the tsunami of cheap Chinese EV’s hitting Europe. People buying Chinese over German EV’s as better batteries and software. Electricity will always be cheaper than global priced oil. Germany wants tariffs on cheap Chinese EV’s
I like Tom Moloughney, and generally find his reviews of L2 chargers to be useful, but this podcast is just a verbal jumble, catalyzed by insipid questions and mental mush from Tom Prucha (hey Sandy, take this guy's microphone away from him). In short, there are no thoughtful insights or actionable analysis in this video. I want my eleven minutes back.
Pretty spicy comment. You get my thumbs up. BTW Moloughney gave us the history and interesting reasons why EV charging networks are so buggered compared to Tesla. This is an evolving thing, obviously.
I thought Tom M. was an EV advocate! I guess not. Tom, you are a Debbie Downer... I hate to say this, BUT I have only been driving EVs since 2018 - 5 years and have done over 60,000 plus miles of road trips all across the USA and Canada and where we wanted to go I had no problem except from Okc, OK going East to AR. Since I got the CCS1 to Tesla, adapter has zero problems anywhere. The DC fast charging network gets better every day. New stations are being installed daily. Maybe you should take a new road trip.😊. I wounder whyyou keep saying how bad it is, but never give a video and provide proof. Your statements sound like you are being paid by BIG OIL.
The problem with Tesla's charging system for me is that there was previously one Supercharger station on my 300 mile route. Easy decision. All of a sudden there are 2 more locations on the same route and they're even faster. Arg. So now I have to make decisions. To top it off I didn't even have enough time at the V2 Supercharger to walk my dog. Now I'll have even less time at the 2 new V3 Supercharger locations. My dog is mad. Life is hell... ;-)
No pleasing some people 🙄🙄😉
@@rogerstarkey5390 I was going to say a nice problem to have.
Sounds like the solution is to use the V2 charger, walk your dog, and fall back to the V3 chargers if the V2 chargers are not working for whatever reason.
Life's a bi*ch, then you die.
Tesla opened up their network to non-Tesla drivers here in France in 2022. It has made a huge difference to not only prices but the quality of other charging networks. In 2021/22 we were paying €0.79/kWh at Ionity, Total and other networks. Tesla's rates of €0.43 have forced the other networks to reduce their prices which are now in the
Good to hear. USA might catch up.
Dinners in France are great too. Breakfast is fine but generally it's not what Americans are accustomed to, unless they are in an establishment which caters to Americans.
I noted the point about infrastructure in the UK. 95% true, but you need to interview Toddington Harper of Gridserve. That is a UK charging infrastructure company that is doing things right. Gridserve has bought up a lot of the old locations, along with creating their own mega charging centres and putting in the latest technology and comforts. I have charged my car at one of their centres and it is next level. Don't forget the name.
Everyone else is double the price of Tesla though. I cant believe nobody has matched Teslas price here. Nearest supercharger is 15 mile from me! I have a LR M3 only had it a week, so far I have used a GeniePoint 50kw that is 50 meters away from from where I live, signed up to Electroverse so now its 65p per Kw.
@@usefulrandom1855 Yes, I agree. Everyone else is much more expensive than Tesla. The answer I was giving was more to do with quality and reliability, which Tesla has stood alone on. Gridserve UK is easily the best non-Tesla charging network. I only wish there were more of their centres. Tbf though, I hear that Fastned is excellent too, though I haven't used any of their facilities yet.
As for cross country charging, Tesla is the only game in town. Plenty of owners have easily gone from coast to coast using the Tesla Supercharger network. There are many routes one can take too, if you want to do some sight-seeing on the way. It's great that non-Tesla owners can enjoy easy EV travel once they get on the Supercharger network this year.
So far only about three dozen SC stations have been opened to non-Teslas. I think the opening is going to be done in a measured way to lessen the chances of congestion. They also have to lengthen the charge cables otherwise those non-Tesla EVs with charge ports in the left front will take up two spaces to charge, that will cause severe conflict with Tesla drivers.
There are still a few ‘dead zones’, areas where SC stations really need to be put in. Examples are around central Wyoming (need a station in Cody) and in SE New Mexico where Carlsbad Caverns National Park is located. Several others in rural open areas with small towns or cities.
@@Chainyanker007 - True - but Tesla is installing new locations at the rate of 27 per week. Also, there are a few areas without gas stations nearby - compounded by the decline in the number of gas stations every year. It is expected that 80% of gas stations will be gone by 2035.
I have owned a Tesla for 2 years. Except when on road trips, I never need to go to a Supercharger. I charge at home. There is simply too much focus on range anxiety, and charging rates. I know that today, not everyone can charge at home, but it will never be as much of a problem as ICE cars where none ever refuels at home.
It was slightly mentioned but a key point is that "filling up" is something that ICE cars do, not EVs. The first question I get from ICE car owners is "How long does it take to fill up?" My answer is that I never fill up. With an EV the goal is to keep the battery low because charging is faster, so I never "fill up" on a trip.
My "fill-up" takes 5 seconds. I plug in when I get home. When I leave the next morning I always have a "full tank" which costs me zero (I use solar). I never have to hunt every week for a gas station, wait in line to get to a pump, standing out in the freezing rain pumping and breathe in carcinogenic fueling fumes and then paying $90 for the hassle.
I disagree, you're only solving the easy case when you do that and you'll quickly plateau on buyers and never make a mainstream product. Any vehicle on the road can handle the easy cases near home. You're not selling anyone anything by doing that. You sell on capability not just practicality.
You need to show that the vehicles are capable of all the edge cases even if there is a minor trade-off in convenience. That's what the market wants to see. You need to show it can at least do it and until the infrastructure is there, that's just not the case. Even in Tesla land there's still areas of my state that are impossible to get to and back without level 2 charging and with major pre-planning required. In CSS land, it's even worse, forget about those trips.
And it's clearly visible in the sales of CCS vehicles. It's not just the vehicles that is hurting their sales. Infrastructure needs to be there and buyers can see where these vehicles are falling short. And If what you said is true, everyone would have bought Leaf's and i3s because those cover almost all those cases too but the market clearly isn't looking for that. They want something with minor trade-offs that offers them all the capability they're used to with some additional advantages (whether that be financial, performance, status, or whatever).
It's like people criticizing truck owners for buying a truck based on towing specs and driving trucks when they're "empty", like the 300+ days a year they're not towing their trailers they're just supposed to park the thing. No, they bought it to cover all their uses because buyers choose a vehicle to cover all their needs, not just the easy ones. Nobody wants to buy a 60k SUV for their family and get asked to go along on a trip and have to say, sorry, our car can't make that trip, the infrastructure and charging isn't good enough. They won't do it and they'll buy something else.
@@tazeat I am not sure that this was directed at me. I am not selling anything. I made my decision to buy a Tesla based on my use case. Besides, we also own a Yukon, so occasionally there are times when it fills the gap.
The point I was attempting to make is that EV charging is different than fueling ICE vehicles. It can be done at home. Recently I have noticed apartment complexes that have charging stations for residents. That's a process that will take time. People who can charge at home will not be competing for charging spots as much. There are no SCs in my city, nearest is 10 miles away. I don't care at all as I would never use it anyway. The only time I will be competing for charging stall will be on road trips. With the road trips that I have taken, I have yet to stop at a SC location that was full. This will only improve with time.
Fill up at home before a long trip
@@rp9674 I don't really bother with that. I might increase the 80% limit to 90%. Ultimately, a few percent doesn't really help much, and in some ways hurts. Road trips work best with the battery SOC being held low. The SCs are where they are and a little extra charge in most cases doesn't help.
I'd love to see chargers set up like gasoline pumps with 2 or 3 grades. Imagine needing some time to eat and rest and being able to just charge "regular" at 60 KW for $0.25, or "Plus at 100 KW for $0.35 per KWH. Those in a hurry could just select "Super" for $0.44 per KWH and get 200 - 300 KW.
The key to public charging infrastructure is level 2 charging, not DC fast charging. Fast charging is just a fraction of the demand for charging. Trying to hook up more and more, faster and faster DC chargers is not the answer to the problem when demand is there mostly during rush hour. Those people should have charged at home before rush hour and charge again at work after rush hour. The battery contains enough juice to make it through rush hour.
I'd like to see more public L2 up to 48a & long term parking L1 at job parking, airport parking, park & rides, etc. Not everthing is road trip fantasies.
Tesla is still the biggest EV company. BYD sold more cars but look what they are dependent on for charging.
Tesla’s SC network in China has been growing amazingly fast in the past 3-4 years. In most places outside of N. America the SC stations are open to all EVs, this is slowly happening in N. America. Tesla does not want excessive crowding at the stations so are proceeding to open up stations in a measured way as more and more stations become operational.
They are dependent on the level 2 EVSEs in their garage?
Yeah, they're dependent on home charging mostly.
Charging while sleeping is convenient. @@ky314
For peak demand issues, Toms ideas are sound and the market will find other ways to mitigate. Onsite solar will definitely help especially if the local utility either puts them in it self or buys excess as additional grid capacity.
Also it would be awesome to have a code where new apartment buildings and condos would have to install at least a level 1 capable charger at each resident parking space and a certain percentage of level 3s per total residents for folks who need a quick top up. I essentially trickle charge from a level 1 and it meets nearly all of my daily driving needs over time. We have level 2 chargers at work which really helps also especially during the winter.
Contact your governor & mayor.
California state law (Civil Code section 1947.6) requires landlords to approve tenant requests to install EV charging stations in their dedicated parking spaces so long as the tenant is willing to pay for the charging station and associated costs, including installation and utility costs.
What sort of person thinks it is 'awesome' when governments codify ways to force people to spend money?
Shameful totalitarian thinking.
If you want a charging station, you are free to install one.
Why would you demand your neighbor be forced to buy one???
@@rp9674That can cost several thousands of dollars depending on where the designated parking space is.
@@rp9674 When was the last time an actual apartment building was even built? 1971? Who is responsible for paying?
@@ScubaSteveCanada read. It is for existing apartments, tenants pay, unless you make a deal w owner.
Before long, instead of a "parking meter" you'll have a charging station which gives you power, and sends a small "parking surcharge" to the local authority, taken "off the top" of the profit going to the charge provider.
(I suppose ideally that would be the local authority??)
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Simple for you, simple for the authority/ provider.
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If you drive somewhere, to do something, the time you spend will generally reflect the time and effort you spent to get there...
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You're not going to drive an hour for a 5 minute shop.
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If that's the case, you will (again generally) be able to "browse charge" a similar amount of energy to the amount you used to get there without resorting to DC fast chargers.
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Totally agreed there is a huge problem with charging and perceptions. Having a lot more level 2 or even level 1 chargers where people are parked for long periods of time is the answer. My workplace put in over 50 new level 2 charging spots when they redid the parking lot at our building and they always work no matter what the temperature is (chargpoint level 2s). Lots of folks bought BEVs and PHEVs because of this. Before this I had a level one charger I would plug in at some 120V outlets at the back of the building with a few other PHEV drivers. Movie theaters and malls would be perfect candidates for this also!
It will be interesting to see how the new IONNA network rolls out since it's a 7-carmaker joint venture... It needs to be standardized, simplistic and everywhere...
Legacy auto egos will cause issues. In addition, the new CEO of Ionna worked for Electrify America. We all know how crappy EA is.
With 7 parties involved the thing will strangle itself. Doubtful it will get off the ground.
I think in the US the problem is also the charger hardware. In Germany most of the chargers are made by Alpitonic or Kempower. These are working most of the time.
Tesla needs to charge a surcharge for off brand models and use the money to build up the network. First add then upgrade existing stations. People should usually charge at home overnight.
Tesla should try to squeeze out the the other "charging stations". I have heard many video reports saying other "charging stations" like Charge America are very unreliable. This is useless. The purpose of a charging station is to be able to complete long trips.
I'm sure that non-Tesla EVs will pay more for juice than Tesla cars will. When those non-Tesla drivers find this out they may decide just to buy a Tesla next time around.... especially apartment dwellers who have to use superchargers on a regular basis.
@@nickmcconnell1291 It's a matter of having service. Tesla's chargers work.
@@nickmcconnell1291 Tesla's also have more range per KWH, by a substantial margin according to the videos I have seen.
@@suggesttwo Yep! Why I own a model Y. Tesla is simply the best.... period.
That is why they have only 15 days of inventory when most other cars makers are now in the 100s of days. When people actually take the time to shop around, like I did, and compare bang for the buck......Tesla wins every time on things that count... range, handling, superior software, acceleration, interior cargo space, etc..... hands down. And of course... long distance charging station availability and reliability.
Tesla DO charge a surcharge for those not signed up and they're STILL cheaper.
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Driving my Tesla in California you see many 20-40 stall Tesla charging stations. Tesla navigation tells availability of stalls and when you should charge on a trip keeping in the 20-80% charging zone for fastest charging. Non Tesla chargers are typically 1-3 stall with no advance warning if working or not or availability. Lots of surprises. Many non Tesla chargers in sketchy areas and not close to restaurants
The non-Tesla networks had a shot until, after Tesla posted Magic Dock pricing at near 0.50/kWh, the non-Tesla networks followed suit and jacked their prices to the same lofty prices. What are the non-T network operators thinking - charge the same price for less reliable, lower density (#/site, # of sites), older equipment. Once Gen4 SC’s are more frequent, non-T providers will be busting prices or see use rates fall drastically.
I like Tom’s idea: pricing levels for different charging rates. Folks with time or a natively slower charging vehicle can have a good experience without paying top tier prices.
Just realize that it makes no sense from Tesla's point of view to allow selection of a slow rate of charge at a fast charger.
A couple of comments towards the end got me to thinking. RE: Solar canopies for charging stations. OK - so people arrive at work and park their car. Why not have a solar canopy to charge the vehicle while they're at work. When they get home they plug their EV into the house and supply their overnight energy needs. RE: Charging while grabbing a bite to eat on a road trip. Remember Sonic? AKA drive in burger joint. Park you EV, plug it into the charger, teenager roller skates out to your car with your order, roll down the window, food tray hangs off the window, chow down while your car does the same🙂
BEV adoption isn't going to have a "hockey stick" curve, it will more likely be a sigmoid (S) shape that will plateau at some point well before 100% because there will always be a segment of the market for which pure BEVs and fast-charging will never be good enough no matter how much better they get. For that last 30-40% of the market, it'll have to be something like ethanol-extended BEVs.
Also, imagine a large-scale grid outage or Iceland which has a national call for reduced power consumption to prevent the whole grid from collapsing from people having to use electric heaters after lava destroyed steam pipes used for heating. If everyone only has BEVs, nobody can get anywhere because BEVs would waste most of their range just getting out of the affected area to charge. With fuel-powered vehicles, you can send tanker trucks in, fill ~1000 cars per tanker per trip and run fuel station essentials on a ~10kW generator.
Maintaining a fleet of fuel-powered vehicles will become a matter of national security. Can't depend on a single energy source for everything.
Electricity is a multi source fuel, you can make it dozens and dozens of ways, including from fossil fuels. Localized solar into batteries is the most robust energy source there is. We have seen refinery outages or blockades paralyze liquid fuel networks, they can be quite fragile, but a lot of effort goes into making your local gas station a reliable source of energy, so most people don't think about it.
Or in an emergency you can send 20 busses to evacuate ~1000 people.
I am not sure why you are citing power emergencies as a check against BEVs when they are inherently load shedable. Having lots of BEVs that can stop charging *immediately* (or even supply power back to the grid if V2G ever takes off) makes the grid MORE flexible, not less.
@@brushlessmotoring Distributed solar may sound nice in theory but when the grid is down, you cannot easily get it where it is needed. Also, solar is only available during the day. If you want energy from it to still be available at night, you need massive batteries.
With liquid fuel, you can get tanker trucks wherever they are needed to get things moving again as long as roads are driveable. Gasoline and diesel aren't the only options either, most fuel-injected cars will run fine on E90 with little more than injector table tweaks. Also, ethanol can be made from cellulose waste, albeit not as efficiently as sugar cane or corn using current technology.
A typical gas station has 200 000+L worth of total storage, which is about 7.2 TJ worth of energy. Using a 40% efficient constant-power generator (Mainspring makes 45% efficient free piston linear generators, I'm using 40% to account for inefficiencies scaling down from 200kW to 20kW for a generator-extended EV), that is 800 MWh worth of electrical equivalent. You'd need 80x 40' containers worth of batteries to replace one single gas station with an equivalent amount of battery buffer storage.
Every gas station that you remove is a heck of a lot of very convenient potential energy that is no longer available.
@@teardowndan5364 you are still thinking centrally, not distributed. Look at Australias uptake of rooftop solar, no shipping containers of batteries to a gas station are needed.
In my lifetime I’ve seen many liquid fuel disruptions, blockades of refineries, pipeline software hacking (remember that one) or just demand spikes emptying filling stations for miles around (eg hurricane evacuations in Florida) - you are thinking about electricity in liquid fuel terms, and that’s missing a whole realm of new possibilities beyond a gas station - at the end of the day, if you can get liquid fuel anywhere, you can turn it into electricity more efficiently than putting it into a combustion engine.
Look up the Australian Outback diesel EV challenge they did - the EVs went further on the diesel via an efficient generator than the diesel vehicles did by putting it into a tank.
Your arguments about the flexibly and remoteness of fossil fuel distribution apply to EVs too, because EVs can use any fuel, without modification, not just one or two liquid fuels that have to be trucked in.
You can power an EV from gasoline, diesel, propane, natural gas, coal, geothermal stream, solar, wind, tidal, run of river, a spin class at a fitness centre, wood pellets, hydrogen, rainfall, snowmelt …. and I believe we are working on energy beams from space too!
And yeah, the sun doesn’t shine at night, so. charge your batteries during the day, or fall back to a fossil generator, a 25% fossil powered EV is 4 times better than a 100% fossil vehicle, the idea we use EVs not being 0% fossil fueled to continue 100% fossil driving is reductive, the Nirvana fallacy in action.
@@jamesphillips2285 If your busses are also electric, their ability to participate in evacuation efforts will be proportional to how much battery they had left when the mass outage occurred. Also, when you have a car you can drive in an evacuation, you can bring whatever you can stuff in your car on short notice with you instead of leaving everything behind to get on a bus.
For V2G and consumer grid-tie inverters to work, they need to be reading a clean reference signal from the grid and adjust their inverters accordingly. If the signal is distorted due to the grid being on the verge of collapse, stand-alone grid-tie inverters will be forced to disconnect due to unstable reference signal.
I drive an Model3 since 2019 in N and had never huge problems, not even on non Superchargers, because Teslas have like other EV CS2. In 2019 the distance between 2 usual chargers were less than 150km. Together with the Supercharger network, I had a charger every 70km. Since then gas stations have become charging stations with connected shops to buy a coffee, cake or a sandwich. The only issue since then was when temperatures went under -10C, non Tesla chargers give max 70kW.
This business is capital intensive and it's looking like the operators of chargers in the US decided to run chargers on the lowest maintenance level as possible.
Sounds like you have cold battery at 3rd party chargers. Are you navigating to charger as charging not as regular stop or even without navigation?
During the birth of single family cars, Firestone and Goodyear bought up significant sections of railroads to eliminate passenger train travel.
Just take a look at the last 4 years. Since COVID the number of EVa has exploded. I have been driving EVs for 9 years and the amount of growth over the last four years is astounding. The problem now is not so much being able to drive across country (though there are still some charging deserts) the problem is in populated area with lots of EVs there aren't enough chargers. Many places there are wait times now to get a charger and it's not just on holidays. There are a lot of challenges for sure which will eventually get worked out. The next five years will be very exciting indeed.
Lastly, the news media hating on EVs will stop really quickly if we have a spike in gas prices. Could be on the horizon if things in the middle east continue to intensify.
THANKS TOM TOM 🤗 AND THE MUNRO FOR SHARING 💚💚💚
Had a Tesla charging experience when only 3 out of 8 stalls worked. Had to wait for > 1 hour to charge. It's still a bottleneck, and customers don't need more than once of this kind of experience to turn away from EV.
Where and when was this? That's rarer than getting hit by lightning.
In my experience Tesla superchargers always work. And if one out of a dozen happened to be down the car lets you know in transit. How many are up? How many are currently available? Soon, how many are projected to be available when you arrive?
It also specifically gives the Id of any non-working stall(s).
I am an electrical engineer. Electronic systems are fragile when compared to mechanical systems. Moisture, temperature, and vibration take a disproportionate toll. Making rugged and robust electronic devices is very expensive. A consumer-grade potentiometer for example may cost $5 --but the industrial grade might be $190. Its a different world.
So you are saying it is a solved problem then.
It seems that way w Co strutting too. Seems like a roof over chargers would prob cost a few $K, prob is much more
They need to put some in the parking lot of movie theaters… like two or three would be great
Westlake village CA has Tesla, sadly no j1772 / CCS
Local Soccer Stadium called Subaru Park. No Chargers and Subaru sells electric cars!
Many Tesla superchargers are supplemented with solar and battery storage. This helps with electric outages as well as keeping charging prices lower than competitors. I have not noticed solar panels or battery storage at non Tesla charging stations.
There is absolutely no technical reason for EV chargers to be less reliable and harder to use than a gas pump. Industrial systems have solved the same problems decades ago. The reason EV charging is such a poor experience is purely a business decision. Personally I think everyone except Tesla is just in the charging business to harvest personal information from high value consumers.
Maybe there should be a government "assessment" of that reliability?
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I would expect government (local or national) to see the network as an opportunity for revenue and an essential service.
As such, if they truly "govern" they should aim for the best, cheapest and most reliable system, to the point of mandating that if a provider doesn't meet the standard they have 2 choices.
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1) Leave the network.
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2) Either purchase the most reliable unit available to be maintained by their staff, or lease that unit with service cover....
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A couple of issues...
One is obvious. There's "friction" between the provider of that reliable system and Government (don't be naive expecting that to improve in 2025)
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The second, if the "Failing'' company does use the best unit, but sticks to their business plan, at sometimes double the price of the "best" provider, the customer still won't use them.
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One possible solution.
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Suggest to others (including vehicle manufacturers) that they may want to build those units under license.
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They get branding and association with a working network (important!)
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They get a reliable unit (assuming their build quality is up to par)
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They get charging revenue.
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They get "incentive benefits" from any grants on offer.
(Let's face it, they need every dollar they can get at the moment!... May save the Government (tax payer) from bailing them out??)
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How about "The company which designed the unit"?(😉)
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They could get to the contract to provide battery backup at these locations, potentially worth more than the charging since the batteries would be used for energy arbitrage in quiet periods (much of the time)
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Government? Would get a working charge network (and would probably claim credit...)
They may save the Cash, complexity and embarrassment if another bailout.
They would also see an improvement in the energy grid.
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Seems like a win for all concerned?
I am in the UK.
So far, using Zero DSR for 3.5 years, I have had no issues a quick phone call could not resolve.
Now have an MG MG4 and ordered my new Zero DSRX.
Most of my charging has been with Tesco / podpoint or BP charging.
Now have a home charger as well.
Level 2 Chargers need funding. They are cheaper than DC Fast Chargers and top off cars. One hour is 25 miles of distance.
That would work while sleeping.
As a fellow republican who just bought a m50, we’re definitely on that inflection point of the hockey stick. The reason? Tesla locking down the charging standard to massively increase the ability to recharge on a trip and massively increase competition which will benefit everybody involved.
EV sales will explode once all EVs can use the Tesla charging network.
A 110Vac outlet for a level 1 charger in every overnight parking spot would help more. Only 30-60 miles/night for most EV's but that's plenty to keep up with most people's weekly driving.
EV sales will explode WHEN others make *compelling* EVs rather than the "ICE conversion" vehicles.
@@martylawson1638 Agreed. Apartments could put those in covered parking pretty easily. Uncovered would require weather proofing. Their biggest concern is how to pay for the electricity use and how to ensure it is used by the correct person..... especially if they bill by the number of KW/hrs used. I'm sure there are solutions out there.... whether the solutions are economical and simple enough is the question. I'm thinking a physical security key that turns on the outlet... then all power drawn through that outlet is the responsibility of the renter who has that key. If they forget to lock it after they disconnect then they pay for that mistake if someone else uses power from it.
@@rogerstarkey5390 You are right.... that has to happen too. However the OEMs have already signaled that they are giving up. Oh they say that they are just scaling back until there is more demand. However there never will be more demand for their over priced and under featured cars. Without going full hog into EVs they will never learn how to build them at scale economically so they will never be competitive and they will always lose money on them.
Ergo, the OEMs have actually already announced their deaths. They now will just milk the money that they can and wait to die whilst their "C suite" execs cash in and get out before the stockholders get wise.
@@nickmcconnell1291 Lots of existing solutions for billing. A key-card to "unlock" the outlet would be plenty. Assigned parking spots would also work. Wire into each appartment's meter etc. Ideally the building would have a central controller to schedule charging to limit peek power draw reducing cost to the building, but that doesn't mater to renters.
One unfortunate downside I've been seeing is the huge increase in electricity costs. When I bought my first Tesla in 2018 I could find superchargers for 07 cents/kwh. Nowadays, 30-50c per kwh is the norm. I hope someone will hold the line on charging costs.
40% USA population no garage for vehicles gas or electric. EV’s totally dependent on charging station in that case. Monitor for major storms and charge up and gas up before hand as power outages prevent gas pumps from working
I second that. In the US DC power infrastructure is pretty poor. But I live in Ontario Canada and here it is awesome. Never had a problem and in Quebec it's even better. Mostly CO2 free energy. Had to go to Detroit and took my wife's Hybrid car. Not because I was afraid of broken charging stations but I thought if I get car jacked they can have that piece of sh*t Hybrid. But Detroit turned out to be a pleasant city and I had a really good time there. I will be back.
One of the MAIN problems? You can't pay at the charger with a Point Of Sale system. You have to give access to your credit card...to DOZENS of different unregulated non-bank entities. And their e-commerce servers are slow as molasses. Tesla is no different, aside from taking a chunk off tour card right from the beginning.
Considering all the different electrical systems bring serviced, it's amazing more non Tesla EVs haven't gone up in flames trying to charge at Tesla sites.
In my area, the reliability of the EA chargers has improved dramatically in the last few months.
Shell charges $.65/kwh makes for good headlines about how expensive charging is… articles have shown how it’s more expensive to charge a hummer than gas up an economy ICE car so maybe not a conspiracy but convenient…
2:46 I guess Munro really did turn into a Tesla fan site rather than a legitimate resource on EV news and topics. As someone with a similar level of experience and history with EVs as Tom, here's my response: Tesla is woefully behind at this point. You say 10 steps ahead; I say they might be 10 steps behind with no clear pathway to catching back up. They no longer have the longest range EVs. They no longer have the fastest charging EVs. In fact, they only have one EV in the Top 10 in terms of relative charging speed. And the Superchargers themselves are in the process of shifting from being Tesla's biggest asset to being their biggest liability. Here's why:
You acknowledge the issue with a lack of 800 V architecture, but the issues with the Superchargers goes deeper than that. They are designed for Tesla EVs, which again, are no longer the fastest charging EVs. The average power per stall at a V3 site is only 90 kW, and that's only if Tesla didn't exceed the power drop for the site, which they have done. Granting access to non-Tesla EVs means that those sites are not only going to be overtaxed on stall count, they are also going to be overdrawn in terms of charging power. That means the queues are going to be even bigger and even longer. No one cares about 99% reliability if it takes 45 minutes to an hour to access a stall every time you need to charge, especially when there are open stalls, ready to be used at a competing charging provider's nearby site.
There's also a question of compliance and funding. Right now, Tesla is the largest award winner for NEVI funding; however, their chargers don't meet the technical specifications required under NEVI (so again, they're not even getting to the stage where their superior reliability matters). As we've already seen in California, Tesla is ready and willing to abandon millions of dollars in funding rather than fix or upgrade their equipment to comply with regulations and requirements.
Specifically in North America, between ChargePoint (Mercedes, Volvo, Walmart, etc.), EVgo (GM-Pilot-Flying J), IONNA, and even Electrify America's >97% uptime 4th Gen equipment, Tesla's Supercharger Network is in serious trouble. It's going to literally require billions of dollars just to be competitive, let alone to break into the Top 3 charging providers in terms of customer experience and satisfaction.
If I could widely and reliably get 60 kW for my Ioniq 5 I would be happy. When Tesla chargers go "public" EV mobility will be totally changed.
The Supercharge/DC infrastructure is poor everywhere. I know that its bad in most of the UK and still in its infancy here in Australia. My guess is 15 years minimum, as far more EV's are being sold then the charging Network upgrade can handle...at this stage. We are seeing more and more EV's coming out with greater range beyond 500km or 300 miles. Some are already capable of a true range of 700km+. As these become more common, they will reduce the demand on the charging Network as this kind of range will get people to and often to and from their longer destinations. So on the road charging demand will reduce for these.
I see at least three problems with the current changing network: land, people, and power. In theory these elements should be an advantages to BEVs. The current system requires a minimum amount of land (no large subsurface fuel tanks); no people on sight (all processing is self-service), and there is no commodity market influencing the product cost (utilities have stable source for generation). The hidden constraints are: the land is generally of a rental nature, Human interaction requires remote support (call centers) and distributed maintenance and repair structures similar to support structures found in water and gas utilities, and an infrastructure support build-out in the electric power generation utilities. Also, not to mention that the charging station is just another fuel center but with a different type of fuel. This means that the product''s price will include the transportation (state and federal) taxes collected the same as gasoline.
Consider the current convenience store structure as a partial solution. From what I understand, the gasoline product is an "attractive hook" to draw customers to the convenience store. The convenience store structure provides the people support, eliminating call center type support currently being used, and can assist in local trouble shooting, The store already has the land committed providing a fueling location. The convenience store then becomes a "transition" from one type of fuel to another type of fuel. I have already seen a local Shell convenience store being fitted with electrical charging stations. Consider this as a sign of things to come.
Lastly consider geothermic power generation as a substitution for oil, By taking advantage of the evolution in shale oil exploration, now instead of looking for deposits of oil, the search is for deep locations of abundant heat. This is like replacing oil with heat, and eliminating the the "oil refining process". The geothermic heat is not limited to a surface type of heat pools found in volcanic areas. Geothermic heat can source from deep below the earth's crust. Using the tools of shale oil processing, according to the advances in shale oil exploration, a new shale site can be set up and running within a few weeks. Therefore the amount of time to add new electric power generation would take less time than building a traditional power plant, and take up less land area. Geothermic electricity can be implemented, with smaller cost, as an interim power source, for nuclear fusion energy,.
Depends on where the geothermal heat source is located. If out in the boonies hooking up to the grid could be very costly and not economically viable
Best value for the money for both Y & 3 cars and super charging. Can't beat em so join em, almost every major car maker will use a Tesla NACS plug in the near future.
USA forgot to build battery factories and charging stations. Tesla msrp helps pay for its private charging stations. MOST public stations only slow level 2, 3-19 kw. Most public level 3 DC fast chargers only 50 Kw rare to find 100 kw let alone advertised 350kw. All Tesla charging stations are level 3 not 2. 130-250 kw. We need more level 3 at least 130 kw especially with the larger truck batteries. Most companies but their battery packs from expensive 3rd parties in China and Korea, no profits. We need USA battery factories
CU June 15h in muskegon 😊the Highlander PS kindness is always free.
Some EV’s capped at 100 kw max dc fast charging even if level 3 250 kw.
Superchargers network is seamless interaction, just plug in
Running the numbers it will take until 2080 to finish up the interstate highway system. With that just being the highways, not including small cities and towns.
Assuming that nothing changes which never happens.
Tesla network in a few weeks will open to Ford EVs. By the summer, probably at least half of non-Tesla EVs will have Supercharger access. Infrastructure reliability story will be very different by the end of 2024.
Tesla cars and charging stations first generation seems to work so well vs legacy auto. GM still struggling with software Lyriq and now Blazer EV. I remember what NASA said about space X, THOSE BOYS KNOW HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE. Tesla builds both and knowledge from flying spacecraft with return to earth automated. Tesla has its own chip, own 4680 battery, streamlined production, and battery maker for the grid. I believe Tesla still the only company both FOTA AND SOTA OTA. Many competitors offer SOTA but mainly for infomat system. Tesla navigation innovation with their charging stations first class. Competition charging stations with complicated apps and credit cards.
This entire podcast seems to be built around a snuck premise that the public charging infrastructure is "bad" and "unreliable," but I think that premise itself needs to be examined. We need to keep in mind that the largest, most vocal population talking about the poor public charging infrastructure reliability don't even use public chargers as their primary network; they use the Superchargers. So how much should we actually be listening to people who have little to no first-hand experience on the topics they are discussing?
We do know just based on the data that Electrify America is the least reliable national network, but as EA President and CEO Barrosa noted, their usage numbers dwarf the other public charging providers. We wouldn't be seeing that level of use on the EA network if it was anywhere near as unreliable as people claim. As Tom noted, if they aren't working, people will go elsewhere, but so far, non-Tesla EV owners are still relying almost exclusively on the EA network. The bigger takeaway, though, is that EA is not synonymous with "public charging infrastructure," and there are many other charging providers.
As for Tom's claims about the other networks, I'm not sure where he's getting his data. It seems like it might mostly be based on anecdotal experiences. Based on the data, ChargePoint and EVgo (the two other major national networks) are far more reliable than Electrify America, though EVgo has increasingly become the target of vandalism, which according to NEVI standards doesn't count toward charger downtime when assessing reliability. I know Tom is in a region where most of EVgo's original hardware is pushing 10 years of age, but I wonder whether he's taken the time to travel to some of the newer EVgo sites with modern DCFC equipment.
I have NEVER had abad charger in Europe. I charge with Teslas supercharger. I have a Tesla. NO problem ever!
EA needs to be fined $2 million a day until they get 95% fixed.
Don't count your chargers till they are energized. Tesla chargers have not been fully road tested yet. I live near a beta testing Tesla Super Charger that has the Magic Docks. I have had zero success charging there. Tesla is going to run up against the same issues other charging networks have. Every make and model of EV seems to have their own take on the charging communications protocol. All the CCS may have the same basic vocabulary but are all speaking with different accents. Tesla chargers have only ever had to speak one. Now they speak a few of the more expensive EV makes and models. Non Tesla EVs have to use an app to initiate and pay for the charge. It is going to have to deal with all sorts or different banks and credit cards. I predict current Tesla owners are going to be pissed as seeing all these new EVs taking up charging spots and some have to take up two spots. More charger usage means more wear and tear on the chargers. We will see how long Tesla's wonderful reputation lasts once they are opened up to all EVs. I for one will be buying a NACs to CCS adapter within the first year or so even though I don't have as rosy outlook as many do.
Electrify America is owned by the US VW corporation which is owned by VW group in German.
Why is it so hard to believe that VW has little motivation to make their network work?
Excactly.
Because they haven't done it yet.
High inflation and high interest rates have caused LOT ROT, many dealership lots overstocked . Cars sales are down USA vs Europe and China with EV’s leading. USA needs to continue pushing EV’s or the world will jump ahead. 2008 Big 3 bankruptcy trying catch up to global vs just fleet sales. 1970 oil embargo Japanese fuel sippers vs Detroit Muscke cars. History repeats itself this time EV vs gas. China is ahead with world’s largest battery factory CATL. Their new LFP battery state of the art, M3P. No cobalt or nickel
Remember Tesla is a motor and energy company especially battery storage
What use is an EV on a long journey without a reliable, convenient charging network? Which EV manufacturers thought through how to make the whole EV experience work and so, continue to build their own network in each geographic market they enter? Answer: Only Tesla. Which manufacturers ignore charging networks? Answer: All of the rest. Obviously, Tesla also realised that if they had to rely on 3rd party networks, that Big Oil, legacy automakers and auto dealers could quietly invest in charging networks and use them to kill off the whole EV trend by overcharging for electricity, letting their installations fall into disrepair and making it difficult for EV users to pay for and use them. Sound familiar?
To me, this is why everyone is pulling back from EVs… because the Tesla charger deal won’t be in full force until ALL their cars have the Tesla plug in 2025 at the soonest! This is also why EVs are sitting on dealer lots because the cars have no place to charge! Sure they can use some Tesla chargers now, but it’s not enough. People get kinda pissed when they can’t charge. The epic failure of all the other auto manufacturers, no charging network.
I don't care how wonderful Tesla is. You never want to give a company a monopoly on anything, because they will gouge on price and get lazy on updates, both to the car, the charging network, the parts, whatever.
They are giving Tesla a monopoly by having unreliable dc fast chargers.
When Teslas lithium refinery opens it will be great. China is the world’s largest importer raw materials. It refines 60% lithium of the world as well as rare earth metals.
I would like to believe non-Tesla chargers will become more reliable but I just don't think it is possible. Tesla owns the whole charging experience. They build the charger, install it and maintain it. On the other hand, non-Tesla chargers usually involve 3 or more parties.There is too much finger pointing to get anywhere close to Tesla.
There is nothing stopping a charger manufacturer from offering what Tesla is offering.
They sell you the charger and collect a maintenance fee to ensure they stay running.
This interviewee seems stuck in the liquid fuel, 'fill up at empty' past, a large chunk of ev charging is done overnight by people who live with charging at home, it's 90p/kWh for motorway fast charging, 50p on Tesla network, 25p at home, or 5p at home overnight when demand is at its lowest, it's not petrol, people will not wait until they are empty to charge, they will charge when it's cheapest, basic economics...!
Not sure how Tom can say that we don’t have a Solid, Stable charging infrastructure, Tesla is that Structure - all other companies need to kick into a Tesla NACS charger network kitty and build it out to the point of Pilot, Wawa, Buc-ees charging points. What is missing are the 6 stall charges located in smaller non-highway centric places for work vehicles to be able to charge or top off during a busy drive day.
Do you want Tesla to have a greater market share of charging infrastructure because that's how you get Tesla get a greater market share of charging infrastructure. (Oil Industry Conspiracy)
Conspiracy theorists give conspiracy theories a bad name, there are real conspiracies and real theories, they're just rare.
IONNA could be a collection of the unmotivated more than a conspiracy.
It's been so misused, based on recent past I just assume they are true
Google Electrify America in New Hampshire, What infrastructure?
Where is New Hampshire? 😂❤
It;s in state located in the norteast portin of the United States. it boarders Canada
“Out of Order?? F***! Even in the future nothing works!”
Tesla charging network is stable and nationwide!!!!
The whole amp ratings, kw ratings, etc on chargers is pretty dumb. Average consumers don't know what the hell they're doing or what any of that means. It should have just been red handle, blue handle. All cars can use the blues, high power cars can use the reds or blues or something and have industry standards on what each level is and what they're required to output. The problem is this early you dont want to codify too many things and stifle innovation.
Better still, red/ blue light on the charger, visible from the entrance to indicate a working charger.
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who the heck are these guys and where's sandy
jk
Legacy auto has been around 100 years vs electric around 10 years. It will take time. China is 10 years ahead. Look at the tsunami of cheap Chinese EV’s hitting Europe. People buying Chinese over German EV’s as better batteries and software. Electricity will always be cheaper than global priced oil. Germany wants tariffs on cheap Chinese EV’s
Stellantis bought 1 billion dollar investment LEAP MOTOR a Chinese EV company. Stellantis is rebadging to sell Europe
I like Tom Moloughney, and generally find his reviews of L2 chargers to be useful, but this podcast is just a verbal jumble, catalyzed by insipid questions and mental mush from Tom Prucha (hey Sandy, take this guy's microphone away from him). In short, there are no thoughtful insights or actionable analysis in this video. I want my eleven minutes back.
Thanks for watching!
Pretty spicy comment. You get my thumbs up. BTW Moloughney gave us the history and interesting reasons why EV charging networks are so buggered compared to Tesla. This is an evolving thing, obviously.
I thought Tom M. was an EV advocate! I guess not. Tom, you are a Debbie Downer... I hate to say this, BUT I have only been driving EVs since 2018 - 5 years and have done over 60,000 plus miles of road trips all across the USA and Canada and where we wanted to go I had no problem except from Okc, OK going East to AR. Since I got the CCS1 to Tesla, adapter has zero problems anywhere. The DC fast charging network gets better every day. New stations are being installed daily. Maybe you should take a new road trip.😊. I wounder whyyou keep saying how bad it is, but never give a video and provide proof. Your statements sound like you are being paid by BIG OIL.