My current heater is a tank type .. The first one lasted 14 years .. The second lasted 38 years , and was still going ,although making noises.. During a winter storm some years back , we lost power for 4 days ... I was able to heat the house by running all the water from the heater into the bathtub ... Then letting the heater recover for about 2 hours , and doing it again . The bathroom temp was at 86" F. when I first filled the tub ...I was able to keep the house at 50" , here in Minn.... I was able to keep the water pipes from freezing even on the last day when the outside temp dropped to "0" ... Great backup !
I have had my navien for 6 years now. Did not have a an air intake installed and so far never had an issue. Since my house is just a small rancher or bungalow as some call it its fast to get hot water. Love it, and no none of my family have taken longer showers because of it. Saved money for sure.
I installed mine, upgraded the gas line myself, everything inspected and certified. Very efficient system, uses as much gas per month with two people, as the pilot light in our gas fireplace. Our condo does not have gas so I put in electric, cost another $4K to upgrade the electric service to 100 amps but our electric bills are
Yes, it probably makes sense if you don't want to admit you fell for the hype. Consumer testing shows the avg payback for a tankless unit is less then $500 for the life of most units, when all costs included . I can beat that by investing the difference in the up front costs. You surveyed the other owner & deduced a 75% savings? LOL you must work for the tankless industry to come up with that hogwash. Keep it real.
You are so full of shit about the amount of gas they use. Check the energy use guide on the tankless heater and on a conventional tank type water heater. They don't save you that much money. When you factor in the maintenance costs and if you have just one service call on one of these you will have negative savings. I have been in the plumbing and heating business for 30 years. I would not put one of these in my house if it was given to me for free. An indirect water heater connected to a gas hot water boiler is a great way to make hot water. Unfortunately not every one can go this route.
Utility companies actually give you a free tank water heater here...why do you think they will not give a free tankless? Tank water heaters are 1901 technology. Tankless water heaters been used in Europe since after the war. I been on tankless since 1998...I NEVER run out of hot water...do you?
@@label1877 I have a tank and have never run out of hot water...ever. Have hot water during power failures. One repair (DIY thermocouple took about 7 minutes) in 30 years. Natural gas is very cheap.
@@label1877 Remember on Tuesday when you took a shower when the wife was washing clothes and doing dishes? You know the water was only lukewarm because of the high demand. Admit it.
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
When the gas company stopped by and said they were installing on my street I jumped on it. I had my het pump removed, and had a gas furnace, and a Navien Tankless installed. The gas company did all the installation. Along with the Culligan Water System, the best investment I have ever made. The Nav is so cool, I keep a picture on my phone so I can brag about it. We can run every hot water tap and it will not run out! When it first fires up sometimes you hear the pump(?) whirr for a minute, otherwise very quiet. I have had it for almost a year now and the best part...all the extra money in my pocket. My electric is cut more then 50% and the gas cost for the hot water is nominal. So I'm sold on Navien. Great video too. My guys installed the fresh air pipe, and a pressure overflow bottle.
I'm a plumber and I install tankless water heaters everyday and have two in my house. I recommend them for unlimited hot water, BUT its a common misconception that tankless heaters will save people money or help the environment... they do neither. Once my family realized there was unlimited hot water, they started taking longer showers and more baths. My wife has to knock on the door and tell my daughters, "1 hour shower is long enough". They would stay in there for hours if my wife would let them. My wife isn't any better, she started taking 10 as many baths. lol What does this result in? Higher water bills and a gas/electric bill that will stay the same due to the increase in water consumption. I tell people who call me asking for a thankless installations, that they most likely will never make back their initial investment back. Honestly, the only reason to have one is to save space and have unlimited hot water 24/7. Tankless systems on average cost 2 to 3 times more to install, are much more expensive to repair/replace and require much more service. Take all this into consideration before you make such a large investment. They are however wonderful to have and I do recommend them, but most plumbers will not be honest with customers about them or they're just not experienced enough to know.
good tips, however, you say a tank less water heater will cost you more money, but your basing that fact on your family using more water and time in the shower, and not on the actual performance of the tank less water heater. The longer showers are personal preference, and will vary among consumers. Right? thanks.
When I asked the people who installed my old water heater about getting a tankless water heater, the sales person said that it will probably cost more than a conventional tank in the long run. The units cost much more than conventional water heaters, the installation will cost more, new gas lines usually need to be run which can cost good deal, the units will require an annual service and de-liming visit which will cost about $150, and if there is a power outage, the unit will not function. He also added that although the gas bill will be slightly lower, it will not be offset by the extra cost of the unit, installation, and maintenance over the life of the unit. He said that the only cases when he recommends these is if people want limitless hot water. One of my friends insists that everyone should get these for the lower greenhouse gas emissions, but I think the lower emissions are probably offset by more frequent service trips and deliming solution manufacturing. After considering that I have never run out of hot water with my 75 gallon water heater and that when the power was out for six days, I still had hot water, I decided to stay with a conventional tank unit.
MisterGreenGuy. You deffinitely need to produce a video on all the honest infermation you have provided. It would be top notch. Natrually with all the other knowledge and professional experiences you have. But did not becaouse. Your post would be a mile long. lol
You sound spot on with this info. When i was comparing install costs between a 40 gallon gas water heater and a tankless water... the price quotes were MUCH higher for tankless. Several thousand dollars different. Energy use according to tags on both... both would be within a few dollars in water heating costs. 40 gallon tank works fine.
I have a 40 gallon electric tank. I also own a watt meter that records daily, weekly, and monthly kilowatt/hr (kw/hr) and tells you how much money it costs to run it. We left for a week with no water being used and it cost on avg $.13 a day to run it. At $.13 a day, it will take around 13 years to pay off the difference between a tankless and a conventional hot water tank. Not worth it in my mind...
@@plumbingtexas285 whatever. In America most people only have 100 amp services.. bottom line unless you have at least a 200 amp service. Forget about on demand.
@@chrisp1232 the size of service depends on how many gallons per minute you want supplied. I have one that will supply 3 showers with low flow heads at once on 80 amps but also have one at office that can supply one low flow shower on 30 amps. Remember the higher flow rates you still get heated water just not as hot with higher flow.
I installed one in my home 10 years. Im handy but by no means a plumber, install took a day including removal of old tanked unit, changing the gas line and running electric line. Has performed wonderfully, provides ample hot water to run two showers at once and has been a significant energy saver. At one 2nd floor bathroom it does take a while to get hot water, but Im overall very pleased. I have hard water and do flush the system once every year (sometimes 2 years when I get lazy.) In the end Im so impressed with the unit that I have installed them on my rental properties a few years later. Never had a problem with any of them.
Thanks Matt. I was considering putting a tankless heater in my home but after watching your video I don't think the conditions in my home make it a good choice. It's too bad but I'll have to stick with the classic style heater.
Two separate pipes for flue and ventilation is very backwards. Over here in UK we can use one flue pipe which is effectively a pipe in a pipe. The outer pipe sucks in air for combustion from outside. The inner pipe inside blows out the waste gasses to outside. One pipe and one hole to drill. So much better!!!
The most sensible review that I've come across. These tankless heaters are WAY oversold and overpromised as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a plumber, but a homeowner who fell for the hype. I've owned a Navien for 3 years now and absolutely HATE it. Way too noisy, and have had problems from the onset of purchasing the unit (licensed plumber / pluming company). Even during the installation the plumber had to call the manufacture to get the thing to work right. We don't have hard water, we have a professional (not cheap) whole house reverse osmosis water filter, and we have high powered gas lines / meter (that we upgraded to install a whole house generator when we remodeled). The Navien was purchased because we added an addition to our house. I'll take my old fashioned Rheem water heaters any day over this money pit that was sold to me.
Jerrall Wells is your Navien the older type? If so, that had some major quality issues with them, I know had to replace one under warranty for a customer. The newer npe series, the one pictured in this video is a much better unit and addressed all the problems the previous one had.
Mine looks almost identical (external casing anyway) to the above picture except it has 2 PVC connections at the top of the unit instead of just one. My manual and plumbers invoice states it is the NPE-240A if that tells you anything.
Jerrall Wells hmm, that's interesting. I have the same unit installed in my house, and probably about 15 other of these units at customers homes and have had really good luck with all of them. I do believe you though, maybe you have a lemon or possibly something is wrong with install. Do you have it served, and flushed out with a descaler once a year? Is venting installed per specs in owners manual? I ask these questions only because I've seen some horrific installs from so called professionals. One time got a call, tankless wasn't working right, contractor installed a concentric vent in a brick chimney!!
Have the plumber check your dip switches! I install them all the time and they are the best tankless. If they set the wrong switches or none at all that’s your problem. If they had to call customer support they must not know how to install them. If they don’t have the combustion air going out side it will be extremely loud.
Nice job. All good points to mention. I use Navien almost exclusively. All clients are happy with theirs, installation is key. Annual service makes a big difference.
If you are building your own house or are a contractor building a house, you can easily overcome the cons that you stated by being smart with your design. You get the much smaller tankless heaters and put 2 or more in your house based on where your bathrooms/utility/kitchen are. If you group the rooms in 2 different places, you can easily install 2 smaller tankless units that service those areas and reap greater benefits. And if you plan to use solar energy and solar heating you can push those benefits even higher. You just have to think outside the box.
I installed a Titan electric tankless wh at my house. Off hand I do not know the model number but it is their biggest one. I happened to have six unused breaker slots in my box. I had to run 6 gauge wire x 5 counting ground to feed it. It requires two 60 amp double pole breakers.(4 slots) (My old tank unit used 10 gauge that was too light for use with a tankless. Between the wiring, the plumbing and the unit I came in right at $1000. All labor was done by me. For me this was acceptable because the 75 gallon I would have otherwise installed would have been around that. Now for the pros and cons. CONS- I installed a water filter going into the unit to help slow down or prevent the scale the author of this video is talking about. I have to clean it once a month. Pros- 1 unlimited hot water. 2 Some energy savings. 3 The space that used to be occupied by tanked WH now holds 2 tool boxes in my garage. 4 I installed a ac outlet with the number 10 wire from my old WH. That gave me a place to plug in a light over my tool boxes ( led ) It also gave my 21 gallon, 2.5 horse, 14 amp drawling air compressor a outlet and 20 amp breaker of it's own. Am I happy I did this, not only yes! but HELL YES!. The only question left for me to decide is what do with three remaining breaker slots. Hot Tub, bigger compresser, enough christmas lights to land planes? Feel free to leave suggestions, please be nice.
I live in Alaska and have been using an oil fired Toyotomi tankless water heater for 10 years without any problems. It is much more efficient than a propane unit and much much more cheaper than an electric version. I also use the heater to heat the house year round.
I'm little late to this party but have a 5 bedroom, 4.5 bath house in upstate NY, built in 2000; 2 stories plus full basement. From 2000 to 2015 we had twin 50 gal. propane water heaters, which we then replaced with a Navien NPE-240A (so also propane). Been very happy with the change as we use significantly less propane (though can't really quantify that because we also have propane heat, clothes dryer, and range) and freed up significant space in the basement. Master bedroom is as far as you can get from the heater and we do wait maybe a full minute for hot water to get there so a little inconvenient, but still worth it. Also nice not to worry about the water tanks rusting through and flooding the basement, though we did have a Brasscraft fitting fail and try to do the same thing - fortunately someone was nearby when it happened.
The service guys came by to deliver a Navien 240A2 water heater today. They just finished the service loop today, and the contractor mentioned since the Navien is replacing two 40 gallon hot water heaters that there are two exhaust ports in the attic and he was going to use one as the intake. I guess I hired the right contractor since he knew about the intake port on the unit. Since I live near Houston Texas we had a freeze a couple of months ago and they are also replacing the Horizontal CPVC pipes with Pex. We should have plenty of Natural gas since were running a 1-inch gas line. He also told me the Navien is WiFi-enabled and programmable from my phone.
Well done You covered a lot of things that I have to go over with my customers especially the part about an electric tankless which is a huge thing thank you for your video
In my area the water is extremely hard so scale and rust buildup is a huge issue. Big repair bills can be avoided if the homeowner is willing to do annual maintenance but I can assure you 90% of homeowners forget or couldn't be bothered. I would never recommend a tankless for that reason. However, maintaining these units is good for my business. They have about 10x more parts that dont even exist on a tank so are prone to constantly break down. (high limit switch, filter, Outlet Thermistor, Flow sensor, Water Regulator, ...)
I’m a new house builder and my Takagi tankless water heater works great! I also run my radiant in floor heat with the same unit using a back flow valve, pressure reducer, heat exchanger, zone valves, circulators etc.
Interesting... how does the tankless handle the water that is already heated(recirculated). I was under the impression that you couldnt run water in that was above a certain temperature.
When you say combi boiler, does that mean it serves as a boiler for your radiator heating system like ours? We have a century home in Pembroke and ours is pretty economical for a medium house w/ cast iron rads and a sump pump unfinished basement. About $150/mth equal billing and that's our heat w/ hot water, but that's probably what's so noisy in the main floor. It's not the rads so much because I can't hear that upstairs. I haven't checked to see if it's a Navien and it was installed before we bought just last year.
This unit runs on a separate indirect coil which runs on glycol not water, so it can run your infloor hearing, furnace, radiators, towel racks no problem, even in the winter
GetReady4LiftOff If the water heater tank is installed indoors, and you are heating that indoor space, then any heat leaking into the indoor air makes that air warmer, allowing the furnace to run less. It’s only wasted energy at the times when you don’t want the air warmed.
I take it that your water heater is electrically powered. Gas water heaters must be installed in an area that has free air flow with the exterior. Your point is well taken that, if a water heater is electrically powered, and installed inside the livable area of the home, the heat lost from the water heater will heat the home. And that is a plus in parts of the world where the temperature is cool/cold, most of the year.
i only saw 300k btu units...gas input is important, we had regular chimney units so we also had to worry if that was big enough...then the direct vent was better for the chimney but, now is the flue piping going to clear windows, pathway ect?? the tankless isn't always located in the most effective area...they are best closest to the point of use, 1 for each bathroom if they are located far from each other.. plus existing freestanding heaters water,gas and flue are by the chimney. There is an added expense to CD ap the old and run a new gas line from the meter, the house has to be drilled for the flue, they recommend a protection on the house where the acidic air goes, then there is that noise... Very informative thank you..
I'd stick with an electric water heater tank style. And simply add a timer/clock control to keep the heater from coming on throughout the day, according to the family schedules,, set the on's and off's (cycling) at the timer control. I have done this in my house and it has dropped my power bill by 20 to 30%, depending on the season.
this costs you more because the water has to heat up from room temp, also electric HWT are a resistor ( the coil ) and are much more expensive than gas. for reference I have been a plumber and gasfitter for over 20 years.
MrDmadness it depends on the source of electricity. In Canada hydro power is less expensive in areas where it’s the primary source of electricity. So electric water heaters are almost always used because the gas heaters are more expensive. Frankly a boiler is better than these water heaters because they can supply hot water to several fittings at the same time without exceeding the output of the boiler.
@@Davidjune1970 I agree mostly with what you are saying but the cost of electricity regardless of being cheaper is still going to cost more than gas because you are dealing with a resistor in the tank ( the heating element ) which as anybody who has ever used an electric space heater, makes your electric bill increase quickly. The math supports what im saying, ( 1 watt for example is 3.4 btu/hour , So your 3000 watt element releases 10200 btu/hour vs propane at 2500 Btu per Cubic foot, not per hour or Ch4 ( natural gas ) 100 btu per ft/3 . Im not trying to be a dick, but this is literally my job and Electric is never as cost effective, unless it is all that is available. ( there is also the wet surface area calculation for the water heating process, but I wont get into that right now. :) respectfully intended.
@@MrDmadness a water heater is r60. If you go feel the side of the tank then feel the wall of your house they will be the same temp. It loses heat very slowly. If you cut its power it would lose heat very slowly, you would have to actually use the hot water to get it to cool. When i boil water it stays hot for so long i usually just mix in cold so i can dump it down the drain with out softening or cracking pipes. It stays hot for an annoying amount of time.
One reason I would keep my traditional tank style water heater is that is contains almost 50 gallons of clean, potable water at all times. During an emergency situation, that water may be all you have to drink.
I guess you are unfamiliar with busted water mains and or water treatment plants that are damaged along with the pumping station from the local city wells that feed OUR area. We pay extra charges for tiered elevation pumping. We do not have elevated city water tanks. We have lived through it twice. You might want to accept that YOUR knowledge of all things dealing with potable water supplies is NOT all encompassing. IOW, DUMB.
phishfearme2 uh, yeah, in rural areas water is pumped from a well. We used to keep a supply of water on hand in gallon containers in case the power went out for any length of time.
During hurricane Irma we still had hot water with our electric water tank, for the 3 days we lacked power. By using hot water very minimally (Navy showers for 2 adults) paper plates, etc we had warm showers the entire time. Water tanks are so well insulated today they hold the heat for quite a while. Our friends with tankless water had cold showers as soon as the power was out.
In California earthquakes are a real concern and can break water mains. Earthquake preparedness groups suggest storing a food and water supply for the event. Stored bottled water is a prudent step. Also a water heater tank with 40 gallons in it probably will be appreciated. Thats the main reason I stuck with a tank style heater when it came time to replace the old one.
I had a plumber friend install a tankless water heater a couple of years ago and my gas bills have dropped in half. I also had him install a water filter that is designed to reduce scaling. It takes a minute to heat up but so did my tank heater.
I owned a high efficiency tank type (Voyager) for 12 years. I have now owned a Rinnai tankless for over 5 years and there has been no comparison in maintenance, performance and economics between the two types. I will never go back to a tank type water heater when I can run my Rinnai and my Bosch, (in the garage) for 1/3 of what it used to cost me to run my tank type. My tank type also cost about twice as much as both of my tankless units. My Bosch just runs on room combustion air but my Rinnai has their sophisticated flue and inlet pipe.
voyagers were a failed experiment and not representative of high efficiency water heaters as well as the Lennox HM30, don't by anything from heat transfer products, or Lennox as they will not stand behind their warranties. The Polaris water heater whom these two tried to copy is a great unit and I have units I installed 30 years ago (at 95% eff. very rare at that time) that are still going strong
We have a cabin in the mountains of Colorado. I used to start the the regular water heater each time we visited. It took time to heat water so we could take showers etc.Each time when I left the cabin I drained the entire water heater before we left - wasting 30 gallons of hot water. We tried to find a tankless water heater but the plumbers there had never heard of one!
I have had my tankless for 17 years. I have never had to do anything to it. My first 3 heaters were ones with tanks and only lasted 3-5 years. Tankless is the only way to go.
I've had my gas fired tankless for nearly twice that long, 33 years to be exact. It has recently developed a tiny leak in the heat exchanger that's not repairable due to the fins on the copper pipes. I have only had to replace the pressure sensing rubber diaphragm a couple times in all those years. Cost about $40. No other problems. Am replacing with a Navien NPE 180A unit which will provide a lot more hot water and will work with a modern high efficiency washing machine. My old tankless was incompatible because of the short cycling of the washer. After a few minutes of short cycling hot demand, the T&P valve would blow and the safety would shut the pilot light down. PIA dealing with that. Whirlpool bought it back from me after I wrote to their CEO. I bought a 5 year old used old tech washing machine and life was once again good.
I have this exact water heater in my home. The only issue i have with it is that it does require maintenance . Once a year my guy comes out and cleans it, etc. 50.00 for that. But that being said, the only problem i have ever had with it was that i hadnt had it serviced in 5 years . Now that i have it serviced annually, no problem whatsoever . I like that it takes up way less room than a conventional water heater and i believe that it saves us money. The only gas things i have are this water heater and the furnace. When the furnace isnt running, my gas bill is next to nothing
Hehehehe...the plumber/professionals commenting here about how tankless is junk. Give it a rest already! I installed one in my home. Best money spent for upgrade. Are they expensive to install?? Sure...if you hire a plumber who overcharges. Matt is right, you'll need a proper sized gas line. Will they save you money?? Not much. Why? Because you will find that people will take longer showers. Family of 5 can take shower one after another without running out of water. Even the 25 minute teen showers. One of the plumbers that told me it won't work even came over to my house. I turned the shower on, a lav faucet and the kitchen sink faucet...they ran and ran. And he still couldn't believe it. So tankless is oversold as far as savings. BUT, what sells these is the unlimited hot water they provide. What about maintenance?? Again, not tough...even if you flush them once a year. However, I only did mine every other year. A plumbing company owner I know put one in his house. 7 kids...yeh, 7. And just to see how long it would last, he never flushed it. Not once. It is about 12 years old and still going. But I wouldn't recommend doing that. If you're building a new house, upsizing of the gas line shouldn't cost that much. If you plan on keeping the home for a long time, you'll be glad you went tankless.
You are right on the mark in most every thing you say. Tankless water heaters are great- the very best,but they do and can save a lot of money. Tell everyone that they still have to take a bath in the same amount of time as they did with a tanked Water Heater. If you have a tub and or shower with individual Hot and Cold control handles you could set the tankless temperature at 105 or 106 or 107 degrees and not use the cold water at all to take a shower- tub bath saving the home owner wasted cold water that they have to pay for and in many places of our country even more save on the sewage charge because of water usage. If the home owner has a single lever water control, there are several was to get to the cold water supply line and install a shut-off so that only the hot water runs and by setting the tankless to the temps stated above ( 104 to 108 degrees ) , they can always have a perfect shower-bath and save a Bunch of Money.
Well, I'll admit you've got the details down to the nano-cent. ;-) For the average family out there who cares nothing but that hot water comes out of a faucet when they turn it on, it's not going to save a bunch of money. Perhaps it's our definition of "bunch". ??
Still surprised that people are getting out of the shower because they go so long they run out of hot water, never had this issue (my whole life). Never had a problem. Happy with mine, did a lot of the installation, bought the unit from Menard's, total cost not a huge amount more than a standard tank type and future installations will be much easier (and cheaper).
I've heard the "professionals" don't like them because they can be harder to install and will require less visits over the heaters expected lifespan. Many if not all, tankless, are sold with manuals that specify tuning procedures and ranges that need to be respected. They are not to be installed by looking through the little window and judging the pretty flames color. Installer keeps going back to "fix" a tankless that was never properly tuned, it's easier to say its the heater than the improper install. Look at retrofitting too, it's more work to install a tankless where a tank once was. They plumb H20 and gas to the bottom not the top, require an outlet for ignition and possibly changes to inlet/exhaust. It's a lot easier to tell everyone tankless is crap and just put in tanked where one already was.
@@samwickerboots590I work for a plumbing supply company at the front desk, and I hear the same thing. For a lot of tankless heaters, you're right, retrofitting can be a chore. Norritz has a fairly new retrofitting kit that has top connections, uses 1/2" gas line (up to a distance, 20' I think) and uses the existing b-vent from a traditional atmospheric-vent tank-style heater. I haven't moved a lot of them, don't know how well the perform, but they sure look to be easier to install when replacing a tank-style water heater.
Good video, thanks! In my case, I use an electric tankless heater for my radiant floor heating. I can run it during off-peak hours and it's quite efficient and cost-effective. For hot water in the house I use a Rheem Marathon (again electric)...it's heavily insulated and all-fiberglas, so no tank failures and pretty much a lifetime unit. Gas is good now, but looking into the not-too-distant future you're going to want everything to be electric, especially since solar generation is getting cheaper every year. Plus, it won't be that much longer before that solar on the roof is putting fuel in the car's "gas tank" too.
I watch a lot of house videos this is the first time I've came across yours beat info keep up the good work got to go have more of your videos to enjoy
My tankless heater saves me tons of money! I had an electric water heater that ran on 220 volts, I used to spend $500 a year on hot water and there was never enough. Now I spend $125 a year with a propane tankless and never run out of hot water.
In terms of "efficiency" technically the electric ones are efficient, but you need to remember that even if an electric water heater is almost 100% efficient, the utility is charging you for all the energy loss of getting the electricity to your house, so they're a LOT more expensive to operate. In addition, the load requirement of a whole house electric tankless is about 170amps which is another whole service panel! If you have nat gas, that's the way to go. I do like the D'mand systems too.
I have seen on home dpeot that they have 120 volt electric tank less water heaters now. No need for a circuit breaker. What do you think? thanks, and thanks for excellent video too. I just bought a tank less water heater off ebay,. Works great. Gas powered, no electric.
In addition, if you are on a well, then you will have much fluctuation of water flow. After fighting an electric tankless heater for a couple of years I finally surrendered and went back to the tank water heater. (we had tried everything from water flow regulators to increasing the water pressure to reducing the intervals for the pump to re-start - nothing worked. Echo Smart changed out the panel etc but to no avail)
I'm not a professional and I've used them for decades. One I installed myself, it only serviced an extra shower and was electric. The other location we have one which services two full baths, kitchen and washer. Each bathroom has a temp setting so we can adjust for children, pets. We have had zero maintenance since install 15 years ago. These units are outside the US and the technology outside the US has been around for decades. I've been trying for years to find similar units in the US and to be honest the technicians don't create confidence as they don't have the experience. Guess I'll keep trying. Thanks for the video.
Gas meters are CFM not BTU, most houses have a 350 CFM meter. I have a in ground pool so I had a 450CFM. NWNG came out and upgraded mine because all houses in Oregon are now going to be 650CFM because they know that houses are being built with more gas appliances then even 20 years ago. I have the following all hooked up with gas and have now problems. Tankless water heater heat, pool heater and grill.
Yeah, at a given pressure, a cubic foot of natural gas will contain a certain amount of combustion energy. So with the right conversion factor, cubic feet per minute can be converted to British Thermal Units per hour and vice versa.
Max MAX a standard size gas meter (AC250) with the common regulator will give 375 btu. Most issues are plumbers run too small of lines through homes to get the needed volume. Furnace is 90k, range 60k, tankless 199k, plenty of volume if the right size lines are installed. Pool heaters are about 400k
This was great. I am engineer a marine (boiler) engineer. This was well done. OH, the intake needs to be min 14-16(?) inches away from the final exhaust per "The Rinnai Guy". >>> I am amazed at the extent to which Americans must go to warm their "woo-woo". My 20 year tanked water heater went but I am heating my water with wood in a water stove. Been wrestling with tankless vs. new tank ... won't work, but need to find the right one.
Some believe that even if there’s enough air for combustion. One should pull combustion air from outside to lessen the Resulting negative pressure, and associated Infiltrative heat loss, Though you’re perhaps correct concerning adequate combustion air...the link below provides the formula to determine the answer. www.rhs1.com/support/references/Combustion_Air_Requirements.pdf
Been debating on getting one. My 10 year old low efficiency tank is getting closer to end of life and I should consider changing it. It's a rental but I want to try to break out of the contract and just install my own. Downside of tankless is they are more complex and expensive and more likely to fail prematurely. But upside is the higher efficiency. Not so much because they are tankless but because they by nature are more efficient designs, due to being condensing etc. They do make condensing tank but they are super uncommon. My other option might actually be to just go with electric tank. It will cost a bit more to run, but technically be 100% efficient. No need for any kind of venting also means one less heat loss in the house. I can just cap the pipe going outside or remove it completely. Another bonus is I could actually use solar power for it when it's available. Ex: could have a relay that switches one of the elements to a solar source when I have excess production.
My rinnai is 13 years old, no problems so far. I live in an area with very hard water, I circulate vinegar through it once a year as preventive maintenance, it takes me about 45 min to do. I am about to move to another home. I'm going to install a tankless as soon as I move in.
I have had a Bosch that I installed myself eleven years ago for a 1400 square foot addition. I have not touched that tankless other than maybe 3 times to re-light the pilot. So your theory doesn't hold true for my experience.
I installed an electric tankless for a customer. He had the old style water heater, so I ran new electric lines, etc. Total cost was $1,500, and that included the unit. Sounds like many people think they ought to make $700/hour installing these things.
When planning for a new house, what do you think about having a multiple cheap electric tankless heaters? 1 under kitchen sink cabinet (heats kit sink & dish washer); 1 under bathroom cabinet (heats BR sink, shower, tub); 1 in utility room (heats clothes washer, slop sink); 1 in boiler room (for hydronic baseboard);
in the UK these are called 'combi' boilers becuase they provide hot water for the taps AND for the low pressure central heating. Thus you don't need gas for the 'furnace' because it IS the furnace AND the hot water heater.
Correct - 200,000 btu is near enough 60kw which would be commercially rated in the UK, the average combi boiler installed in the UK probably rates around 30kw
Please be tolerant of American ignorance. I have a tankless combi unit and may be the only one on my block of attached two family homes using a tankless combi unit. Unfortunately, America lags behind in heating technology and slow to adapt to state of the art heating technology Europe and Asia have used for decades. The many converts here to tankless appreciate the savings and better efficiency of tankless over conventional tanked heaters. Since my tankless has two pipes going to the roof, one for intake and the other for exhaust, the next time I inspect my roof I'll be able to see if anyone on my block has converted to tankless.
@steve french Yes. Converting liters/min to gal/min, 20l/min = 5.28 gal/min. My Navien NCB 240E condensing combi boiler using natural gas will produce 120F/48.8C at a minimum flow rate of 1.9l or 0.5 gaL per minute. Maximum flow rate while maintaining 120F, 4.5gpm. Heater water pressure, 12-30 psi, domestic water pressure, 15-150 psi. NYC water pressure into my home was measured at 75 psi. Operating pressures (displayed) varies between 20-25 psi and I presume that's regulated incoming water pressure for domestic water heating. My Navien is the largest made for residential use and varies heating from as low as 18,000 BTU to 199,900 BTU. As I am 'forced' to become knowledgeable about tankless heaters, I'm becoming comfortable with it and even performed the first annual descaling with vinegar. Navien gave me the go ahead to perform this with a full set of valves for easy maintenance when flushing heat exchangers.
As with so many YT comment threads, this one features more generalization than information. And the truth is that there are so many variables that may occur in the use of a water heater that it would be comparatively difficult to do a good video on this topic. We lived on the country for 41 years, and in that time used three propane tankless units (a Thermar, a Vaillant, and a Bosch, if it matters) and all worked very well. I had no trouble plumbing and running the gas line to any of them, and despite the fact that the water contained a lot of dissolved calcium and iron, we had no problems with scaling in any of the units. In contrast, where we live now we have a plain old Whirlpool electric tank unit. Can’t practically use gas due to the cost of running gas lines and ventilation, and an electric tankless unit would require the installation of 2x50A lines to operate. I did some rough estimating, and it would take more than the anticipated life of the unit for the electrical savings to amortize the cost to switch. So- when this tank goes out, we’ll be putting another just like it in its place.
In my opinion that will add a bunch of plumbing, venting, and running gas or electric lines. What I've had success with is one unit centrally placed - and then I add a 4-gallon electric tank in line with the hot water under the kitchen sink so that you have instant hot water at that location - and if you use several gallons at that location, the tank will receive hot water and thus not run out, as well as not draw much electricity. May not be code where you live, but it works very well.
One problem I see right of the bat is that when they fail you might have to replace more than one at a time. Also the on demand while they sound like they would save you money are probably going to cost you more plus it is up to you but I would only want to install one heater not keep doing it for every sink I own.
I have a 2-gallon water heater at my vanity sink in the bathroom. Love it. My husband installed it. Very nice to have my own personal electric water heater. We had 2 50 gal tanks in the attic (dumbest place ever to put a water heater), but now we have 2 Navians in or encapsulated crawlspace and have loved them for 5 years.
Excellent explanation, I'm an east coast plumber who is not a fan of tankless. For me, a good old tank-style water heater is the ticket, no callbacks, no training the customer on the nuances of tankless. I would consider tankless down south, west coast, but not in the cooler climates.
Just a passing uk gas engineer, seems in your country above 200,000 btu's your water heater becomes a "boiler" requiring a certified gas engineer to install it. That's why they all stay under that figure.
Each 1000 Btu will give you 1 gallon of water per hour. Plus or minus. 1 Btu raises 1 LB water 1 deg F. So, 1 Imperial gallon weighs 10 Lbs. 10 Lbs water raised 100 deg F = 1000 Btus. ( 10 x 100) 100 deg F is the common heat rise is often used for calculations, considering a final temperature of 140 deg F. I did my gas ticket 50 years ago, if I have made any errors describing this please let me know. So, a 30,000 btu gas water heater will give you 30 gallons of hot water per hour.
Great information. I did get a very similar Navien in 2016. It works great. I will re-sign a service agreement to have it flushed for 2018. I heard those coil replacements are expensive.
Most home owners will not maintain water heaters. So the Tank water heater will last longer. But install demand re-circulation pumps at the point of use. Much better use of fuel savings and water saving.
No if you are calling quality water low calcium? I think you mean hardness or calcium in the water we have 40 grains with a condensing unit it will calcify or plug up much faster than a non condensing unit.
Just installed Navien NPE-210A tankless water heater to replace my 40 Gal high efficiency tank water heater. That is night and day. Much happier now with unlimited hot water and finally can use Jacuzzi. BTW. It works great and supplies hot water for 3.5 bathrooms in 4500 sq. ft. house with 4 people in the house. All gas: fireplace, stove, dryer, and central heater. No issues at all. Going to add wireless controller soon. Pro installation cost $800, plus unit was around $1400. Also, if I had to replace my 40 Gal tank, to a 50 Gal tank, equipment would cost around $1200, because I do not have chimney for exhaust and I had to use exhaust motor on top of the tank. Gas pipe is 3/4 inch is sufficient for that tankless heater.
This person is clearly not a Journeyman Gas fitter or Journeyman Plumber. DO NOT HIRE THIS PERSON! Gas code states that the gas line is sized so every fixture can run at the same time. Making one change to the system requires EVERY Fixture to run at the same time. Which in most cases installing a Navien or equivalent tankless hot water heater means Re-sizing the gas line. Most HACKS wont bother. Some Hacks don't even bother re sizing the venting system when they remove the old Natural Draft hot water heater and install the new tankless. By CODE you HAVE to Now pull a new sized liner. Likely the Furnace is now the only fixture. Or possibly nothing is left on that Chimney and should be removed all together. Also Hire someone who has taken the Navien Factory training.. or similar of competing products. Navien Can in All Cases Run on 1/2" gas line. It however wont run at 100% capacity. There is a special valve inside that ramps up and down so in the case that your gas line was not properly installed it wont under-fire. The valve simply changes to compensate for the volume available. If this guy took the training he'd know that. He could have also showed the 99.3EF efficiency rating on the Enner guide tag. ASK for their Journeyman Tickets, Licencing, And Insurance! because if someone listens to this guy there will be a death due to CO poisoning! www.navieninc.com/specs
What I got from watching this is most houses do not have a large enough line coming in from the street, or a large enough gas meter. The fact that you most likely have to re-pipe the entire house is a given. I am starting to think these on-demand water heaters are only for new construction, where the house is set up for it.
Finally, from a plumbers perspective, it’s good to hear someone tell the truth and know what they are talking about on the tankless water heaters. Don’t even consider an electric tankless.
My experience with tankless was not good. My home is on a shallow sandpoint well, and never considered the minimum gpm requirement of the heater. If no other tap in the house was opened while the tankless was on, no problem....if another tap was opened, the total volume reduced the supply to the tankless to below the minimum needed to operate, and I got instant COLD water.
Yeah, that's a MAJOR downfall of these PoS's - you can't hot water at a low flow rate. The flow sensor shuts off teh burner. Like I said, they're PoS's.
If another tap was opened, more water flow occurs whether drawing from a tank or tankless heater. If your tankless heater can't supply hot water for more than one faucet then either you chose an undersized tankless unit or your plumber is incompetent. While many diyers can install heating equipment, some may fall into a trap with unknown issues only licensed plumbers are knowledgeable about when determining which boiler or hot water heater is appropriate. My guess is your tankless unit is undersized.
Sounds like you need a pressure booster set up on your well. If you have a well you should have a method to increase the water pressure on the system. That or install a booster. But first check to see if there's a small pipe diameter anywhere. You can only move as much water as the size of the pipe and the pressure will allow.
I got an electric tankless. Needed a new power source from the power pole for it to work. It works good. Still haven't saved enough to pay for new powerhookup but it's paid for its buying price though.
I have seem many people that Love their Rinnai and very many people that hate running out of Hot Water or the cost of their water tanks bursting and flooding the house while ruining the walls or floors or ceilings. I've never seen a tankless water heater burst. I know that they could if they are installed outside in the cold freezing weather, but if they are , and the home owner leaves the water dripping in freezing weather, then it will not freeze, Many tankless are located inside and out of freezing weather and will not burst.
In those areas of freezing temperatures, exterior mounting of some tankless units may have an optional electric heater for freeze protection or run antifreeze in a combi unit - antifreeze to the boiler system for hot water circulation but regular potable water for domestic hot water. Each has their own heat exchangers so drinking water never mixes with boiler water.
I was thinking of one because I live alone in a tiny house with a 40 gal electric tank heater. One shower a day do dishes for about 20 minutes a week in total. Seems to heat and maintain 40 gallons for that I'd be better off with a tankless. I can easily extend my 3/4 gas line to reach if needed I was an hvac installer year's ago but never dealt with tankless WHs.
Thank you for the clarity of your explanation. I have only 100 AMP service in this house which is quite adequate with a hi-efficiency furnace, gas stove, gas hot water heater and gas dryer. With the dramatic fall in gas prices, my plumber has moved away from tankless to a small recirculating pump and in his own home, with three children, he is experimenting with two hot water tank with one set at a lower temperature to feed the other, both hi-efficiency and both with insulating jackets. Time will tell how the experiment works.
I have 100Amp also. Wondering when they will require new/bigger to run my .07 amp led bulb as I set by my Toyo stove as it warms my 5gal steel pails shower water pumped by a camp shower head. Upgrades=up tax, you know what you own they own. MMMM thats why they cut down the forests and require 1550 sq ft?? MMM sandpaper and ax
Been working a few years in heating/ventilation/cooling business as a tech assistant, I only can tell you STAY AWAY FROM THESE ! Save yourself maintenance, complexity and costs of installation, repairs. I fact, we replaced a lot of these to go back to good old, best quality - no Home Depot garbage- tanks over the years...
@@avyassayag3889 The anode rod. In tank-based heaters, there is a sacrificial anode rod--made from metals such as aluminum or magnesium--that reacts with the water to prevent it from corroding the steel in the tank itself. However, because of their typically sacrificial nature, they have to be checked and/or replaced at least every other year, or else the tank stands at risk for leaks and foul-smelling hot water (due to sulfur bacteria).
A navien has a negative pressure gas valve so if you only have a 1/2 gas line you will be fine. They did that because of retrofit application. The recirculating pump has a smart feature that learns your schedule, and only recirculates when you need it. Also you can get a control that you can link to your phone that controls just about everything thing on the navien.
If you only have 1/2 a gas line, you will definitely NOT be fine. You need a whole gas line for a gas appliance to work. ;-) Or maybe you meant a 1/2 INCH gas line.....
That was a really balanced , lucid and coherent video on the subject . A rare treat on youtube.
Ditto!
My current heater is a tank type .. The first one lasted 14 years .. The second lasted 38 years , and was still
going ,although making noises.. During a winter storm some years back , we lost power for 4 days ... I was able to heat the house by running all the water from the heater into the bathtub ... Then letting the heater
recover for about 2 hours , and doing it again . The bathroom temp was at 86" F. when I first filled the
tub ...I was able to keep the house at 50" , here in Minn.... I was able to keep the water pipes from
freezing even on the last day when the outside temp dropped to "0" ... Great backup !
Not had a hot water tank in my last three houses, the tankless heaters work really well in my experience her in the UK.
Nice vid Matt. Ive been considering tankless. Im going to now stay with my tank hot water heater. Thanks for the clear talk on the subject!
From one pro to another.....Great Explanation!! I have to admit, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks!
I have had my navien for 6 years now. Did not have a an air intake installed and so far never had an issue. Since my house is just a small rancher or bungalow as some call it its fast to get hot water. Love it, and no none of my family have taken longer showers because of it. Saved money for sure.
Thank you for explaining the issues with gas supply and distance from heater to output. So many overlook the gas usage requirements.
I installed mine, upgraded the gas line myself, everything inspected and certified. Very efficient system, uses as much gas per month with two people, as the pilot light in our gas fireplace. Our condo does not have gas so I put in electric, cost another $4K to upgrade the electric service to 100 amps but our electric bills are
Yes, it probably makes sense if you don't want to admit you fell for the hype. Consumer testing shows the avg payback for a tankless unit is less then $500 for the life of most units, when all costs included . I can beat that by investing the difference in the up front costs. You surveyed the other owner & deduced a 75% savings? LOL you must work for the tankless industry to come up with that hogwash. Keep it real.
You are so full of shit about the amount of gas they use. Check the energy use guide on the tankless heater and on a conventional tank type water heater. They don't save you that much money. When you factor in the maintenance costs and if you have just one service call on one of these you will have negative savings. I have been in the plumbing and heating business for 30 years. I would not put one of these in my house if it was given to me for free. An indirect water heater connected to a gas hot water boiler is a great way to make hot water. Unfortunately not every one can go this route.
Utility companies actually give you a free tank water heater here...why do you think they will not give a free tankless? Tank water heaters are 1901 technology. Tankless water heaters been used in Europe since after the war. I been on tankless since 1998...I NEVER run out of hot water...do you?
@@label1877 I have a tank and have never run out of hot water...ever. Have hot water during power failures. One repair (DIY thermocouple took about 7 minutes) in 30 years. Natural gas is very cheap.
@@label1877 Remember on Tuesday when you took a shower when the wife was washing clothes and doing dishes? You know the water was only lukewarm because of the high demand. Admit it.
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
Thank you for a clear explanation, this is a first clip that talks about gas requirements, I realized that I need to upgrade my gas supply
That is solid logic on the decision. Best place to start out in considering switching. Really good advice thank you.
When the gas company stopped by and said they were installing on my street I jumped on it. I had my het pump removed, and had a gas furnace, and a Navien Tankless installed. The gas company did all the installation. Along with the Culligan Water System, the best investment I have ever made. The Nav is so cool, I keep a picture on my phone so I can brag about it. We can run every hot water tap and it will not run out! When it first fires up sometimes you hear the pump(?) whirr for a minute, otherwise very quiet. I have had it for almost a year now and the best part...all the extra money in my pocket. My electric is cut more then 50% and the gas cost for the hot water is nominal. So I'm sold on Navien. Great video too. My guys installed the fresh air pipe, and a pressure overflow bottle.
I'm a plumber and I install tankless water heaters everyday and have two in my house. I recommend them for unlimited hot water, BUT its a common misconception that tankless heaters will save people money or help the environment... they do neither.
Once my family realized there was unlimited hot water, they started taking longer showers and more baths. My wife has to knock on the door and tell my daughters, "1 hour shower is long enough". They would stay in there for hours if my wife would let them. My wife isn't any better, she started taking 10 as many baths. lol
What does this result in? Higher water bills and a gas/electric bill that will stay the same due to the increase in water consumption. I tell people who call me asking for a thankless installations, that they most likely will never make back their initial investment back. Honestly, the only reason to have one is to save space and have unlimited hot water 24/7. Tankless systems on average cost 2 to 3 times more to install, are much more expensive to repair/replace and require much more service. Take all this into consideration before you make such a large investment. They are however wonderful to have and I do recommend them, but most plumbers will not be honest with customers about them or they're just not experienced enough to know.
good tips, however, you say a tank less water heater will cost you more money, but your basing that fact on your family using more water and time in the shower, and not on the actual performance of the tank less water heater. The longer showers are personal preference, and will vary among consumers. Right? thanks.
some sanity in a sea of dumb....refreshing
When I asked the people who installed my old water heater about getting a tankless water heater, the sales person said that it will probably cost more than a conventional tank in the long run. The units cost much more than conventional water heaters, the installation will cost more, new gas lines usually need to be run which can cost good deal, the units will require an annual service and de-liming visit which will cost about $150, and if there is a power outage, the unit will not function. He also added that although the gas bill will be slightly lower, it will not be offset by the extra cost of the unit, installation, and maintenance over the life of the unit. He said that the only cases when he recommends these is if people want limitless hot water.
One of my friends insists that everyone should get these for the lower greenhouse gas emissions, but I think the lower emissions are probably offset by more frequent service trips and deliming solution manufacturing.
After considering that I have never run out of hot water with my 75 gallon water heater and that when the power was out for six days, I still had hot water, I decided to stay with a conventional tank unit.
MisterGreenGuy. You deffinitely need to produce a video on all the honest infermation you have provided. It would be top notch. Natrually with all the other knowledge and professional experiences you have. But did not becaouse. Your post would be a mile long. lol
MisterGreenGuy sounds like you need to crack the whip on the family members.
You sound spot on with this info. When i was comparing install costs between a 40 gallon gas water heater and a tankless water... the price quotes were MUCH higher for tankless. Several thousand dollars different. Energy use according to tags on both... both would be within a few dollars in water heating costs. 40 gallon tank works fine.
I have a 40 gallon electric tank. I also own a watt meter that records daily, weekly, and monthly kilowatt/hr (kw/hr) and tells you how much money it costs to run it. We left for a week with no water being used and it cost on avg $.13 a day to run it. At $.13 a day, it will take around 13 years to pay off the difference between a tankless and a conventional hot water tank. Not worth it in my mind...
@@nathanrachul6946 its not even close for gas. Thanks for the feedback. I have friends in the HVAC field... none of them have them
I’m a general contractor and I installed an electric on demand water heater AND I LOVE IT
how big is your electrical service? because they require 100 amps.
@@chrisp1232 they usually require much more Amps than that. for a whole house application.
@@plumbingtexas285 whatever. In America most people only have 100 amp services.. bottom line unless you have at least a 200 amp service. Forget about on demand.
@@chrisp1232 the size of service depends on how many gallons per minute you want supplied. I have one that will supply 3 showers with low flow heads at once on 80 amps but also have one at office that can supply one low flow shower on 30 amps. Remember the higher flow rates you still get heated water just not as hot with higher flow.
will need to replace it in 3-4 years those elec ones are trash..
I installed one in my home 10 years. Im handy but by no means a plumber, install took a day including removal of old tanked unit, changing the gas line and running electric line. Has performed wonderfully, provides ample hot water to run two showers at once and has been a significant energy saver. At one 2nd floor bathroom it does take a while to get hot water, but Im overall very pleased. I have hard water and do flush the system once every year (sometimes 2 years when I get lazy.) In the end Im so impressed with the unit that I have installed them on my rental properties a few years later. Never had a problem with any of them.
Thanks Matt. I was considering putting a tankless heater in my home but after watching your video I don't think the conditions in my home make it a good choice. It's too bad but I'll have to stick with the classic style heater.
Two separate pipes for flue and ventilation is very backwards. Over here in UK we can use one flue pipe which is effectively a pipe in a pipe. The outer pipe sucks in air for combustion from outside. The inner pipe inside blows out the waste gasses to outside. One pipe and one hole to drill. So much better!!!
The most sensible review that I've come across. These tankless heaters are WAY oversold and overpromised as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a plumber, but a homeowner who fell for the hype. I've owned a Navien for 3 years now and absolutely HATE it. Way too noisy, and have had problems from the onset of purchasing the unit (licensed plumber / pluming company). Even during the installation the plumber had to call the manufacture to get the thing to work right. We don't have hard water, we have a professional (not cheap) whole house reverse osmosis water filter, and we have high powered gas lines / meter (that we upgraded to install a whole house generator when we remodeled). The Navien was purchased because we added an addition to our house. I'll take my old fashioned Rheem water heaters any day over this money pit that was sold to me.
Jerrall Wells is your Navien the older type? If so, that had some major quality issues with them, I know had to replace one under warranty for a customer. The newer npe series, the one pictured in this video is a much better unit and addressed all the problems the previous one had.
Mine looks almost identical (external casing anyway) to the above picture except it has 2 PVC connections at the top of the unit instead of just one. My manual and plumbers invoice states it is the NPE-240A if that tells you anything.
Jerrall Wells hmm, that's interesting. I have the same unit installed in my house, and probably about 15 other of these units at customers homes and have had really good luck with all of them. I do believe you though, maybe you have a lemon or possibly something is wrong with install. Do you have it served, and flushed out with a descaler once a year? Is venting installed per specs in owners manual? I ask these questions only because I've seen some horrific installs from so called professionals. One time got a call, tankless wasn't working right, contractor installed a concentric vent in a brick chimney!!
Have the plumber check your dip switches! I install them all the time and they are the best tankless. If they set the wrong switches or none at all that’s your problem. If they had to call customer support they must not know how to install them. If they don’t have the combustion air going out side it will be extremely loud.
thomas, whatever idiot told you that flunked chem. PURE H2O has a PH of 7. NEUTRAL Ph
Nice job. All good points to mention.
I use Navien almost exclusively. All clients are happy with theirs, installation is key. Annual service makes a big difference.
If you are building your own house or are a contractor building a house, you can easily overcome the cons that you stated by being smart with your design. You get the much smaller tankless heaters and put 2 or more in your house based on where your bathrooms/utility/kitchen are. If you group the rooms in 2 different places, you can easily install 2 smaller tankless units that service those areas and reap greater benefits. And if you plan to use solar energy and solar heating you can push those benefits even higher. You just have to think outside the box.
Matt's explanation, and caveats, is crystal clear and worth hearing!
I installed a Titan electric tankless wh at my house. Off hand I do not know the model number but it is their biggest one. I happened to have six unused breaker slots in my box. I had to run 6 gauge wire x 5 counting ground to feed it. It requires two 60 amp double pole breakers.(4 slots) (My old tank unit used 10 gauge that was too light for use with a tankless. Between the wiring, the plumbing and the unit I came in right at $1000. All labor was done by me. For me this was acceptable because the 75 gallon I would have otherwise installed would have been around that. Now for the pros and cons. CONS- I installed a water filter going into the unit to help slow down or prevent the scale the author of this video is talking about. I have to clean it once a month. Pros- 1 unlimited hot water. 2 Some energy savings. 3 The space that used to be occupied by tanked WH now holds 2 tool boxes in my garage. 4 I installed a ac outlet with the number 10 wire from my old WH. That gave me a place to plug in a light over my tool boxes ( led ) It also gave my 21 gallon, 2.5 horse, 14 amp drawling air compressor a outlet and 20 amp breaker of it's own. Am I happy I did this, not only yes! but HELL YES!. The only question left for me to decide is what do with three remaining breaker slots. Hot Tub, bigger compresser, enough christmas lights to land planes? Feel free to leave suggestions, please be nice.
Too much personal info.....
Hot tub
Great and informative. Warranty and service is great with those tankless!
I talked out loud about a water heater. I’ve never searched for one online. Proof they’re listening to us.
What device of yours did this video suggestion show up on?
gantmj iPhone 6
Oh, yeah. Siri is definitely listening. So is Alexa.
And that is why those bitches will never be in my house.
BREAKING NEWS!! ua-cam.com/video/mw6tHU4r87Q/v-deo.html !!
I live in Alaska and have been using an oil fired Toyotomi tankless water heater for 10 years without any problems. It is much more efficient than a propane unit and much much more cheaper than an electric version. I also use the heater to heat the house year round.
I'm little late to this party but have a 5 bedroom, 4.5 bath house in upstate NY, built in 2000; 2 stories plus full basement. From 2000 to 2015 we had twin 50 gal. propane water heaters, which we then replaced with a Navien NPE-240A (so also propane). Been very happy with the change as we use significantly less propane (though can't really quantify that because we also have propane heat, clothes dryer, and range) and freed up significant space in the basement. Master bedroom is as far as you can get from the heater and we do wait maybe a full minute for hot water to get there so a little inconvenient, but still worth it. Also nice not to worry about the water tanks rusting through and flooding the basement, though we did have a Brasscraft fitting fail and try to do the same thing - fortunately someone was nearby when it happened.
The service guys came by to deliver a Navien 240A2 water heater today. They just finished the service loop today, and the contractor mentioned since the Navien is replacing two 40 gallon hot water heaters that there are two exhaust ports in the attic and he was going to use one as the intake. I guess I hired the right contractor since he knew about the intake port on the unit. Since I live near Houston Texas we had a freeze a couple of months ago and they are also replacing the Horizontal CPVC pipes with Pex. We should have plenty of Natural gas since were running a 1-inch gas line. He also told me the Navien is WiFi-enabled and programmable from my phone.
I’ve had tankless water heaters for ten years. My wife and I love them.
Cecil Price just had on installed last summer, so far so good
Well done You covered a lot of things that I have to go over with my customers especially the part about an electric tankless which is a huge thing thank you for your video
Thanks. Learned much about something that I had known very little. Good Video & Info.
Mine is over twenty years old and still works fine. Much money saved over the period I have owned and used it.
In my area the water is extremely hard so scale and rust buildup is a huge issue. Big repair bills can be avoided if the homeowner is willing to do annual maintenance but I can assure you 90% of homeowners forget or couldn't be bothered. I would never recommend a tankless for that reason. However, maintaining these units is good for my business. They have about 10x more parts that dont even exist on a tank so are prone to constantly break down. (high limit switch, filter, Outlet Thermistor, Flow sensor, Water Regulator, ...)
I’m a new house builder and my Takagi tankless water heater works great! I also run my radiant in floor heat with the same unit using a back flow valve, pressure reducer, heat exchanger, zone valves, circulators etc.
Interesting... how does the tankless handle the water that is already heated(recirculated). I was under the impression that you couldnt run water in that was above a certain temperature.
I have a Navien NCB 240 combi boiler and it works amazingly well in Toronto. But it was very expensive.
When you say combi boiler, does that mean it serves as a boiler for your radiator heating system like ours? We have a century home in Pembroke and ours is pretty economical for a medium house w/ cast iron rads and a sump pump unfinished basement. About $150/mth equal billing and that's our heat w/ hot water, but that's probably what's so noisy in the main floor. It's not the rads so much because I can't hear that upstairs. I haven't checked to see if it's a Navien and it was installed before we bought just last year.
This unit runs on a separate indirect coil which runs on glycol not water, so it can run your infloor hearing, furnace, radiators, towel racks no problem, even in the winter
Thanks for the good rundown of pitfalls to avoid. Matt misspoke at the end, saying tank style heaters will save money, meaning tankless.
I live in a northern climate, so any heat loss from my water heater tank heats the house 9 months of the year.
I don't understand your comment.
GetReady4LiftOff If the water heater tank is installed indoors, and you are heating that indoor space, then any heat leaking into the indoor air makes that air warmer, allowing the furnace to run less. It’s only wasted energy at the times when you don’t want the air warmed.
I take it that your water heater is electrically powered. Gas water heaters must be installed in an area that has free air flow with the exterior.
Your point is well taken that, if a water heater is electrically powered, and installed inside the livable area of the home, the heat lost from the water heater will heat the home. And that is a plus in parts of the world where the temperature is cool/cold, most of the year.
i only saw 300k btu units...gas input is important, we had regular chimney units so we also had to worry if that was big enough...then the direct vent was better for the chimney but, now is the flue piping going to clear windows, pathway ect?? the tankless isn't always located in the most effective area...they are best closest to the point of use, 1 for each bathroom if they are located far from each other.. plus existing freestanding heaters water,gas and flue are by the chimney. There is an added expense to CD ap the old and run a new gas line from the meter, the house has to be drilled for the flue, they recommend a protection on the house where the acidic air goes, then there is that noise...
Very informative thank you..
I'd stick with an electric water heater tank style. And simply add a timer/clock control to keep the heater from coming on throughout the day, according to the family schedules,, set the on's and off's (cycling) at the timer control. I have done this in my house and it has dropped my power bill by 20 to 30%, depending on the season.
this costs you more because the water has to heat up from room temp, also electric HWT are a resistor ( the coil ) and are much more expensive than gas.
for reference I have been a plumber and gasfitter for over 20 years.
MrDmadness it depends on the source of electricity. In Canada hydro power is less expensive in areas where it’s the primary source of electricity. So electric water heaters are almost always used because the gas heaters are more expensive.
Frankly a boiler is better than these water heaters because they can supply hot water to several fittings at the same time without exceeding the output of the boiler.
@@Davidjune1970 I agree mostly with what you are saying but the cost of electricity regardless of being cheaper is still going to cost more than gas because you are dealing with a resistor in the tank ( the heating element ) which as anybody who has ever used an electric space heater, makes your electric bill increase quickly. The math supports what im saying, ( 1 watt for example is 3.4 btu/hour , So your 3000 watt element releases 10200 btu/hour vs propane at 2500 Btu per Cubic foot, not per hour or Ch4 ( natural gas ) 100 btu per ft/3 . Im not trying to be a dick, but this is literally my job and Electric is never as cost effective, unless it is all that is available. ( there is also the wet surface area calculation for the water heating process, but I wont get into that right now. :) respectfully intended.
@@MrDmadness a water heater is r60. If you go feel the side of the tank then feel the wall of your house they will be the same temp. It loses heat very slowly. If you cut its power it would lose heat very slowly, you would have to actually use the hot water to get it to cool. When i boil water it stays hot for so long i usually just mix in cold so i can dump it down the drain with out softening or cracking pipes. It stays hot for an annoying amount of time.
@@fajile5109 it's recovery time is much much slower than gas .
Excellent review, I just bought a m series rannai tankless water 🌊 system. I'm looking forward to being off the grid.
One reason I would keep my traditional tank style water heater is that is contains almost 50 gallons of clean, potable water at all times. During an emergency situation, that water may be all you have to drink.
when did you EVER have an emergency where the water went off??? dumb
I guess you are unfamiliar with busted water mains and or water treatment plants that are damaged along with the pumping station from the local city wells that feed OUR area. We pay extra charges for tiered elevation pumping. We do not have elevated city water tanks. We have lived through it twice.
You might want to accept that YOUR knowledge of all things dealing with potable water supplies is NOT all encompassing. IOW, DUMB.
phishfearme2 uh, yeah, in rural areas water is pumped from a well. We used to keep a supply of water on hand in gallon containers in case the power went out for any length of time.
During hurricane Irma we still had hot water with our electric water tank, for the 3 days we lacked power. By using hot water very minimally (Navy showers for 2 adults) paper plates, etc we had warm showers the entire time. Water tanks are so well insulated today they hold the heat for quite a while. Our friends with tankless water had cold showers as soon as the power was out.
In California earthquakes are a real concern and can break water mains. Earthquake preparedness groups suggest storing a food and water supply for the event. Stored bottled water is a prudent step. Also a water heater tank with 40 gallons in it probably will be appreciated. Thats the main reason I stuck with a tank style heater when it came time to replace the old one.
I like the tank type water heater. I like the idea of having a tank full of fresh water just in case the water system goes down for some reason.
That's a good point! Never thought of that.
Most accurate message of video, "It Depends."
Apparently you haven't noticed yet that life is full of gray areas.
I had a plumber friend install a tankless water heater a couple of years ago and my gas bills have dropped in half. I also had him install a water filter that is designed to reduce scaling. It takes a minute to heat up but so did my tank heater.
I owned a high efficiency tank type (Voyager) for 12 years. I have now owned a Rinnai tankless for over 5 years and there has been no comparison in maintenance, performance and economics between the two types. I will never go back to a tank type water heater when I can run my Rinnai and my Bosch, (in the garage) for 1/3 of what it used to cost me to run my tank type. My tank type also cost about twice as much as both of my tankless units. My Bosch just runs on room combustion air but my Rinnai has their sophisticated flue and inlet pipe.
voyagers were a failed experiment and not representative of high efficiency water heaters as well as the Lennox HM30, don't by anything from heat transfer products, or Lennox as they will not stand behind their warranties. The Polaris water heater whom these two tried to copy is a great unit and I have units I installed 30 years ago (at 95% eff. very rare at that time) that are still going strong
You made a lot of good points I didn't even think about. Excellent video 👍
I’ve had mine for 8 years. No problems.
Just clean once a year according to manufacturers recommendations
We have a cabin in the mountains of Colorado. I used to start the the regular water heater each time we visited. It took time to heat water so we could take showers etc.Each time when I left the cabin I drained the entire water heater before we left - wasting 30 gallons of hot water. We tried to find a tankless water heater but the plumbers there had never heard of one!
I have had my tankless for 17 years. I have never had to do anything to it. My first 3 heaters were ones with tanks and only lasted 3-5 years. Tankless is the only way to go.
I've had my gas fired tankless for nearly twice that long, 33 years to be exact. It has recently developed a tiny leak in the heat exchanger that's not repairable due to the fins on the copper pipes. I have only had to replace the pressure sensing rubber diaphragm a couple times in all those years. Cost about $40. No other problems. Am replacing with a Navien NPE 180A unit which will provide a lot more hot water and will work with a modern high efficiency washing machine. My old tankless was incompatible because of the short cycling of the washer. After a few minutes of short cycling hot demand, the T&P valve would blow and the safety would shut the pilot light down. PIA dealing with that. Whirlpool bought it back from me after I wrote to their CEO. I bought a 5 year old used old tech washing machine and life was once again good.
That's odd. My electric tank heater has been going for at least 24 years.
I've had a AO SMITH 50 gallon water heater for 21 years. Absolutely no problems, I dont see the benefit outweighing the cost
@@ronjames9599 Not an issue for me ...tank is in a utility room with a floor drain and a water alarm, nothing to worry about.
@@5StringRon its 21 yrs old...trust only goes so far. It doesn't hurt to be prepared.
I have this exact water heater in my home. The only issue i have with it is that it does require maintenance . Once a year my guy comes out and cleans it, etc. 50.00 for that. But that being said, the only problem i have ever had with it was that i hadnt had it serviced in 5 years . Now that i have it serviced annually, no problem whatsoever . I like that it takes up way less room than a conventional water heater and i believe that it saves us money. The only gas things i have are this water heater and the furnace. When the furnace isnt running, my gas bill is next to nothing
Hehehehe...the plumber/professionals commenting here about how tankless is junk. Give it a rest already!
I installed one in my home. Best money spent for upgrade. Are they expensive to install?? Sure...if you hire a plumber who overcharges. Matt is right, you'll need a proper sized gas line.
Will they save you money?? Not much. Why? Because you will find that people will take longer showers. Family of 5 can take shower one after another without running out of water. Even the 25 minute teen showers. One of the plumbers that told me it won't work even came over to my house. I turned the shower on, a lav faucet and the kitchen sink faucet...they ran and ran. And he still couldn't believe it.
So tankless is oversold as far as savings. BUT, what sells these is the unlimited hot water they provide.
What about maintenance?? Again, not tough...even if you flush them once a year. However, I only did mine every other year. A plumbing company owner I know put one in his house. 7 kids...yeh, 7. And just to see how long it would last, he never flushed it. Not once. It is about 12 years old and still going. But I wouldn't recommend doing that.
If you're building a new house, upsizing of the gas line shouldn't cost that much. If you plan on keeping the home for a long time, you'll be glad you went tankless.
You are right on the mark in most every thing you say. Tankless water heaters are great- the very best,but they do and can save a lot of money. Tell everyone that they still have to take a bath in the same amount of time as they did with a tanked Water Heater. If you have a tub and or shower with individual Hot and Cold control handles you could set the tankless temperature at 105 or 106 or 107 degrees and not use the cold water at all to take a shower- tub bath saving the home owner wasted cold water that they have to pay for and in many places of our country even more save on the sewage charge because of water usage. If the home owner has a single lever water control, there are several was to get to the cold water supply line and install a shut-off so that only the hot water runs and by setting the tankless to the temps stated above ( 104 to 108 degrees ) , they can always have a perfect shower-bath and save a Bunch of Money.
Well, I'll admit you've got the details down to the nano-cent. ;-)
For the average family out there who cares nothing but that hot water comes out of a faucet when they turn it on, it's not going to save a bunch of money. Perhaps it's our definition of "bunch". ??
Still surprised that people are getting out of the shower because they go so long they run out of hot water, never had this issue (my whole life). Never had a problem. Happy with mine, did a lot of the installation, bought the unit from Menard's, total cost not a huge amount more than a standard tank type and future installations will be much easier (and cheaper).
I've heard the "professionals" don't like them because they can be harder to install and will require less visits over the heaters expected lifespan.
Many if not all, tankless, are sold with manuals that specify tuning procedures and ranges that need to be respected. They are not to be installed by looking through the little window and judging the pretty flames color. Installer keeps going back to "fix" a tankless that was never properly tuned, it's easier to say its the heater than the improper install.
Look at retrofitting too, it's more work to install a tankless where a tank once was. They plumb H20 and gas to the bottom not the top, require an outlet for ignition and possibly changes to inlet/exhaust.
It's a lot easier to tell everyone tankless is crap and just put in tanked where one already was.
@@samwickerboots590I work for a plumbing supply company at the front desk, and I hear the same thing. For a lot of tankless heaters, you're right, retrofitting can be a chore. Norritz has a fairly new retrofitting kit that has top connections, uses 1/2" gas line (up to a distance, 20' I think) and uses the existing b-vent from a traditional atmospheric-vent tank-style heater. I haven't moved a lot of them, don't know how well the perform, but they sure look to be easier to install when replacing a tank-style water heater.
Great insight while I consider switching from to Tank to tankless. Thanks!
Good video, thanks! In my case, I use an electric tankless heater for my radiant floor heating. I can run it during off-peak hours and it's quite efficient and cost-effective. For hot water in the house I use a Rheem Marathon (again electric)...it's heavily insulated and all-fiberglas, so no tank failures and pretty much a lifetime unit. Gas is good now, but looking into the not-too-distant future you're going to want everything to be electric, especially since solar generation is getting cheaper every year. Plus, it won't be that much longer before that solar on the roof is putting fuel in the car's "gas tank" too.
I watch a lot of house videos this is the first time I've came across yours beat info keep up the good work got to go have more of your videos to enjoy
All I needed to know, I'll never think about a tankless water heater again.
My tankless heater saves me tons of money! I had an electric water heater that ran on 220 volts, I used to spend $500 a year on hot water and there was never enough. Now I spend $125 a year with a propane tankless and never run out of hot water.
In terms of "efficiency" technically the electric ones are efficient, but you need to remember that even if an electric water heater is almost 100% efficient, the utility is charging you for all the energy loss of getting the electricity to your house, so they're a LOT more expensive to operate. In addition, the load requirement of a whole house electric tankless is about 170amps which is another whole service panel! If you have nat gas, that's the way to go. I do like the D'mand systems too.
I have seen on home dpeot that they have 120 volt electric tank less water heaters now. No need for a circuit breaker. What do you think? thanks, and thanks for excellent video too. I just bought a tank less water heater off ebay,. Works great. Gas powered, no electric.
Might work OK in South Florida for washing your hands at a very low flow rate.
In addition, if you are on a well, then you will have much fluctuation of water flow. After fighting an electric tankless heater for a couple of years I finally surrendered and went back to the tank water heater. (we had tried everything from water flow regulators to increasing the water pressure to reducing the intervals for the pump to re-start - nothing worked. Echo Smart changed out the panel etc but to no avail)
mine draws about 80 amps at 220V but, I use cal 6 wire including the ground
6955beniegn
look how old this video is 4 years old. So its advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
My furnace installer took the same short cut. Its outrageous! My 'high efficiency' furnace was pumping warm air outside.
Excellent information. Well explained.
I'm not a professional and I've used them for decades. One I installed myself, it only serviced an extra shower and was electric. The other location we have one which services two full baths, kitchen and washer. Each bathroom has a temp setting so we can adjust for children, pets. We have had zero maintenance since install 15 years ago. These units are outside the US and the technology outside the US has been around for decades. I've been trying for years to find similar units in the US and to be honest the technicians don't create confidence as they don't have the experience. Guess I'll keep trying. Thanks for the video.
These water heaters are good for hotels, I just installed one at my place of buisness/hotel and i have saved money on my gas bill!
Dude you rock honestly is invaluable
Gas meters are CFM not BTU, most houses have a 350 CFM meter. I have a in ground pool so I had a 450CFM. NWNG came out and upgraded mine because all houses in Oregon are now going to be 650CFM because they know that houses are being built with more gas appliances then even 20 years ago. I have the following all hooked up with gas and have now problems. Tankless water heater heat, pool heater and grill.
Cubic feet are convertible to BTU's since gas appliances are rated that way from the factory. Read up, dude.
Yeah, at a given pressure, a cubic foot of natural gas will contain a certain amount of combustion energy. So with the right conversion factor, cubic feet per minute can be converted to British Thermal Units per hour and vice versa.
Max MAX a standard size gas meter (AC250) with the common regulator will give 375 btu. Most issues are plumbers run too small of lines through homes to get the needed volume. Furnace is 90k, range 60k, tankless 199k, plenty of volume if the right size lines are installed. Pool heaters are about 400k
@@robertmitchell7899 Could you explain that? I was under the impression that BTU was a measurement of heat and not volume.
Just multiply CFH by 1,000 to get btu
This was great. I am engineer a marine (boiler) engineer. This was well done. OH, the intake needs to be min 14-16(?) inches away from the final exhaust per "The Rinnai Guy". >>> I am amazed at the extent to which Americans must go to warm their "woo-woo". My 20 year tanked water heater went but I am heating my water with wood in a water stove. Been wrestling with tankless vs. new tank ... won't work, but need to find the right one.
Overall good review, but that room may be large an open enough for to just use the basement air for combustion air.
Some believe that even if there’s enough air for combustion. One should pull combustion air from outside to lessen the Resulting negative pressure, and associated Infiltrative heat loss, Though you’re perhaps correct concerning adequate combustion air...the link below provides the formula to determine the answer.
www.rhs1.com/support/references/Combustion_Air_Requirements.pdf
Been debating on getting one. My 10 year old low efficiency tank is getting closer to end of life and I should consider changing it. It's a rental but I want to try to break out of the contract and just install my own. Downside of tankless is they are more complex and expensive and more likely to fail prematurely. But upside is the higher efficiency. Not so much because they are tankless but because they by nature are more efficient designs, due to being condensing etc. They do make condensing tank but they are super uncommon. My other option might actually be to just go with electric tank. It will cost a bit more to run, but technically be 100% efficient. No need for any kind of venting also means one less heat loss in the house. I can just cap the pipe going outside or remove it completely. Another bonus is I could actually use solar power for it when it's available. Ex: could have a relay that switches one of the elements to a solar source when I have excess production.
Most plumbers love tankless WHs because they're constant maintenance, and a high profit margin to install.
I have had one preventive maintenance call (flush) on mine in 11 years. 50 bucks. So...no.
If i stalled correctly very little maintenance is ever needed
If u own one of theses. U can maintain it ur self. All u need is some tools and time.
My rinnai is 13 years old, no problems so far. I live in an area with very hard water, I circulate vinegar through it once a year as preventive maintenance, it takes me about 45 min to do. I am about to move to another home. I'm going to install a tankless as soon as I move in.
I have had a Bosch that I installed myself eleven years ago for a 1400 square foot addition. I have not touched that tankless other than maybe 3 times to re-light the pilot. So your theory doesn't hold true for my experience.
I installed an electric tankless for a customer. He had the old style water heater, so I ran new electric lines, etc. Total cost was $1,500, and that included the unit. Sounds like many people think they ought to make $700/hour installing these things.
Had a tank water heater for 30 yrs. Had to replace element once. Always hat hot water. Now have tankless and not impressed
My daughter has a 40 gal. natural gas hot water heater. It reads 1991 on the tag.
You must have very soft water. Even the manufacturers don't claim that life expectancy.
When planning for a new house, what do you think about having a multiple cheap electric tankless heaters?
1 under kitchen sink cabinet (heats kit sink & dish washer);
1 under bathroom cabinet (heats BR sink, shower, tub);
1 in utility room (heats clothes washer, slop sink);
1 in boiler room (for hydronic baseboard);
I don't have a hot water heater. I have a cold water heater.
lol
Very astute! We only need to heat water that's cold! So, calling it a "hot water heater' as opposed to just a "water heater' is one wasted word.
I farted
Pfft. That joke was told by George Carlin a million years ago.
Farmer Dave haha.... last time I checked , I can make hot water, ie 110 degrees, hotter ie 120 or 140+ degrees!! Just sayin
Quiet already about hot water tank phrase & listen to what your little mind never considered installing tankless. Best Ever Infor!!!
"Gas" needs to be in the title. Many people only have access to electric.
If you look close in the thumbnail you can see the gas line.
@@normanwells2755 You assume that everyone knows a gas line when they see one.
You can get propane
Thanks for the information. Quick question, why do you not want the heater taking in basement air?
in the UK these are called 'combi' boilers becuase they provide hot water for the taps AND for the low pressure central heating. Thus you don't need gas for the 'furnace' because it IS the furnace AND the hot water heater.
Correct - 200,000 btu is near enough 60kw which would be commercially rated in the UK, the average combi boiler installed in the UK probably rates around 30kw
Please be tolerant of American ignorance. I have a tankless combi unit and may be the only one on my block of attached two family homes using a tankless combi unit. Unfortunately, America lags behind in heating technology and slow to adapt to state of the art heating technology Europe and Asia have used for decades. The many converts here to tankless appreciate the savings and better efficiency of tankless over conventional tanked heaters. Since my tankless has two pipes going to the roof, one for intake and the other for exhaust, the next time I inspect my roof I'll be able to see if anyone on my block has converted to tankless.
@steve french Yes. Converting liters/min to gal/min, 20l/min = 5.28 gal/min. My Navien NCB 240E condensing combi boiler using natural gas will produce 120F/48.8C at a minimum flow rate of 1.9l or 0.5 gaL per minute. Maximum flow rate while maintaining 120F, 4.5gpm. Heater water pressure, 12-30 psi, domestic water pressure, 15-150 psi. NYC water pressure into my home was measured at 75 psi. Operating pressures (displayed) varies between 20-25 psi and I presume that's regulated incoming water pressure for domestic water heating. My Navien is the largest made for residential use and varies heating from as low as 18,000 BTU to 199,900 BTU. As I am 'forced' to become knowledgeable about tankless heaters, I'm becoming comfortable with it and even performed the first annual descaling with vinegar. Navien gave me the go ahead to perform this with a full set of valves for easy maintenance when flushing heat exchangers.
As with so many YT comment threads, this one features more generalization than information. And the truth is that there are so many variables that may occur in the use of a water heater that it would be comparatively difficult to do a good video on this topic. We lived on the country for 41 years, and in that time used three propane tankless units (a Thermar, a Vaillant, and a Bosch, if it matters) and all worked very well. I had no trouble plumbing and running the gas line to any of them, and despite the fact that the water contained a lot of dissolved calcium and iron, we had no problems with scaling in any of the units. In contrast, where we live now we have a plain old Whirlpool electric tank unit. Can’t practically use gas due to the cost of running gas lines and ventilation, and an electric tankless unit would require the installation of 2x50A lines to operate. I did some rough estimating, and it would take more than the anticipated life of the unit for the electrical savings to amortize the cost to switch. So- when this tank goes out, we’ll be putting another just like it in its place.
What about using several small on-demand heater units rather than one big one?
In my opinion that will add a bunch of plumbing, venting, and running gas or electric lines. What I've had success with is one unit centrally placed - and then I add a 4-gallon electric tank in line with the hot water under the kitchen sink so that you have instant hot water at that location - and if you use several gallons at that location, the tank will receive hot water and thus not run out, as well as not draw much electricity. May not be code where you live, but it works very well.
Too expensive at an average unit cost of $1,200-$1,500 each.
@Ben Jones -- What's the manufacturer? I'd love to buy something not from China.
One problem I see right of the bat is that when they fail you might have to replace more than one at a time. Also the on demand while they sound like they would save you money are probably going to cost you more plus it is up to you but I would only want to install one heater not keep doing it for every sink I own.
I have a 2-gallon water heater at my vanity sink in the bathroom. Love it. My husband installed it. Very nice to have my own personal electric water heater. We had 2 50 gal tanks in the attic (dumbest place ever to put a water heater), but now we have 2 Navians in or encapsulated crawlspace and have loved them for 5 years.
Excellent explanation, I'm an east coast plumber who is not a fan of tankless. For me, a good old tank-style water heater is the ticket, no callbacks, no training the customer on the nuances of tankless. I would consider tankless down south, west coast, but not in the cooler climates.
You talk about "BTU", you should be talking about flow rate, per second, minute hour?
Fred Ziotnick- I'm not an expert but 199,000 BTU is the limit before the unit is considered "a boiler". And that changes EVERYTHING.
Wrong answer, Maynard. I've seen them up to 270K BTU.
Just a passing uk gas engineer, seems in your country above 200,000 btu's your water heater becomes a "boiler" requiring a certified gas engineer to install it.
That's why they all stay under that figure.
Each 1000 Btu will give you 1 gallon of water per hour. Plus or minus.
1 Btu raises 1 LB water 1 deg F.
So, 1 Imperial gallon weighs 10 Lbs. 10 Lbs water raised 100 deg F = 1000 Btus. ( 10 x 100)
100 deg F is the common heat rise is often used for calculations, considering a final temperature of 140 deg F.
I did my gas ticket 50 years ago, if I have made any errors describing this please let me know.
So, a 30,000 btu gas water heater will give you 30 gallons of hot water per hour.
1 BTU raises 1 pound of water 1 degree Farenheit. There is no time component. You should be saying each 1000 BTU per hour, will raise........;
Great information. I did get a very similar Navien in 2016. It works great. I will re-sign a service agreement to have it flushed for 2018. I heard those coil replacements are expensive.
Sounds like a whole load of aggro having one etc I'll stick with my big ol electric water heater.
Yes, tanks last long time .
Very educational, i am having one installed tomorrow i hope the plumber does not take Short cuts.
Thank you very much.
Most home owners will not maintain water heaters. So the Tank water heater will last longer. But install demand re-circulation pumps at the point of use. Much better use of fuel savings and water saving.
A tank can last 10-12 years un-maintained. Tankless might not last 2 years un-maintained.
You are spouting foolishness. I tankless unmaintained with decent water quality will last 15 years without issue.
No if you are calling quality water low calcium? I think you mean hardness or calcium in the water we have 40 grains with a condensing unit it will calcify or plug up much faster than a non condensing unit.
Just installed Navien NPE-210A tankless water heater to replace my 40 Gal high efficiency tank water heater. That is night and day. Much happier now with unlimited hot water and finally can use Jacuzzi. BTW. It works great and supplies hot water for 3.5 bathrooms in 4500 sq. ft. house with 4 people in the house. All gas: fireplace, stove, dryer, and central heater. No issues at all. Going to add wireless controller soon. Pro installation cost $800, plus unit was around $1400. Also, if I had to replace my 40 Gal tank, to a 50 Gal tank, equipment would cost around $1200, because I do not have chimney for exhaust and I had to use exhaust motor on top of the tank. Gas pipe is 3/4 inch is sufficient for that tankless heater.
This person is clearly not a Journeyman Gas fitter or Journeyman Plumber. DO NOT HIRE THIS PERSON! Gas code states that the gas line is sized so every fixture can run at the same time. Making one change to the system requires EVERY Fixture to run at the same time. Which in most cases installing a Navien or equivalent tankless hot water heater means Re-sizing the gas line. Most HACKS wont bother. Some Hacks don't even bother re sizing the venting system when they remove the old Natural Draft hot water heater and install the new tankless. By CODE you HAVE to Now pull a new sized liner. Likely the Furnace is now the only fixture. Or possibly nothing is left on that Chimney and should be removed all together. Also Hire someone who has taken the Navien Factory training.. or similar of competing products. Navien Can in All Cases Run on 1/2" gas line. It however wont run at 100% capacity. There is a special valve inside that ramps up and down so in the case that your gas line was not properly installed it wont under-fire. The valve simply changes to compensate for the volume available. If this guy took the training he'd know that. He could have also showed the 99.3EF efficiency rating on the Enner guide tag. ASK for their Journeyman Tickets, Licencing, And Insurance! because if someone listens to this guy there will be a death due to CO poisoning!
www.navieninc.com/specs
What I got from watching this is most houses do not have a large enough line coming in from the street, or a large enough gas meter. The fact that you most likely have to re-pipe the entire house is a given. I am starting to think these on-demand water heaters are only for new construction, where the house is set up for it.
Tank Water Heater is very conveniently , I truly recommend !!!
"Hot water heater" if you already have hot water, why do you need a heater?🤔
If you want radiet heat you'll need a pump and lots of pipes under the floor or in radiator that you don't have.
Finally, from a plumbers perspective, it’s good to hear someone tell the truth and know what they are talking about on the tankless water heaters. Don’t even consider an electric tankless.
Thank You.
My experience with tankless was not good. My home is on a shallow sandpoint well, and never considered the minimum gpm requirement of the heater. If no other tap in the house was opened while the tankless was on, no problem....if another tap was opened, the total volume reduced the supply to the tankless to below the minimum needed to operate, and I got instant COLD water.
Yeah, that's a MAJOR downfall of these PoS's - you can't hot water at a low flow rate. The flow sensor shuts off teh burner. Like I said, they're PoS's.
If another tap was opened, more water flow occurs whether drawing from a tank or tankless heater. If your tankless heater can't supply hot water for more than one faucet then either you chose an undersized tankless unit or your plumber is incompetent. While many diyers can install heating equipment, some may fall into a trap with unknown issues only licensed plumbers are knowledgeable about when determining which boiler or hot water heater is appropriate. My guess is your tankless unit is undersized.
Sounds like you need a pressure booster set up on your well. If you have a well you should have a method to increase the water pressure on the system. That or install a booster. But first check to see if there's a small pipe diameter anywhere. You can only move as much water as the size of the pipe and the pressure will allow.
I got an electric tankless. Needed a new power source from the power pole for it to work. It works good. Still haven't saved enough to pay for new powerhookup but it's paid for its buying price though.
Run away and don't look back. We have a Rinnai and absolutely HATE the damn thing.
I have seem many people that Love their Rinnai and very many people that hate running out of Hot Water or the cost of their water tanks bursting and flooding the house while ruining the walls or floors or ceilings. I've never seen a tankless water heater burst. I know that they could if they are installed outside in the cold freezing weather, but if they are , and the home owner leaves the water dripping in freezing weather, then it will not freeze, Many tankless are located inside and out of freezing weather and will not burst.
In those areas of freezing temperatures, exterior mounting of some tankless units may have an optional electric heater for freeze protection or run antifreeze in a combi unit - antifreeze to the boiler system for hot water circulation but regular potable water for domestic hot water. Each has their own heat exchangers so drinking water never mixes with boiler water.
that is GREAT information. I was thinking about changing over but I need to do more research. I do have city water and no water softner
Typo in title: "My Professional Opinion"
billdale1 No. That's just how a plumber spells opinion.
I was thinking of one because I live alone in a tiny house with a 40 gal electric tank heater. One shower a day do dishes for about 20 minutes a week in total. Seems to heat and maintain 40 gallons for that I'd be better off with a tankless. I can easily extend my 3/4 gas line to reach if needed I was an hvac installer year's ago but never dealt with tankless WHs.
The moment you said “hot water heater” I knew, that you know, only what you’ve read....
Thank you for the clarity of your explanation. I have only 100 AMP service in this house which is quite adequate with a hi-efficiency furnace, gas stove, gas hot water heater and gas dryer. With the dramatic fall in gas prices, my plumber has moved away from tankless to a small recirculating pump and in his own home, with three children, he is experimenting with two hot water tank with one set at a lower temperature to feed the other, both hi-efficiency and both with insulating jackets. Time will tell how the experiment works.
I have 100Amp also. Wondering when they will require new/bigger to run my .07 amp led bulb as I set by my Toyo stove as it warms my 5gal steel pails shower water pumped by a camp shower head. Upgrades=up tax, you know what you own they own. MMMM thats why they cut down the forests and require 1550 sq ft?? MMM sandpaper and ax
I have not formed an opion yet.
I haven't either, but I have formed an opinion
john walsh I thought I was the only one who caught that!!
If you notice, Matt Knows That spelled it that way in the title. I think cravinbob was calling him out on it.
That's just your opion.
Been working a few years in heating/ventilation/cooling business as a tech assistant, I only can tell you STAY AWAY FROM THESE ! Save yourself maintenance, complexity and costs of installation, repairs. I fact, we replaced a lot of these to go back to good old, best quality - no Home Depot garbage- tanks over the years...
So, in a nutshell, it’s not for me. I’ll just keep my 50 gallon tank. But thank you anyway for the concise explanation, greatly appreciated!
I'll stick to my tank type and replace the anode every 3-4 years.
Anode?
@@avyassayag3889 The anode rod. In tank-based heaters, there is a sacrificial anode rod--made from metals such as aluminum or magnesium--that reacts with the water to prevent it from corroding the steel in the tank itself. However, because of their typically sacrificial nature, they have to be checked and/or replaced at least every other year, or else the tank stands at risk for leaks and foul-smelling hot water (due to sulfur bacteria).
A navien has a negative pressure gas valve so if you only have a 1/2 gas line you will be fine. They did that because of retrofit application. The recirculating pump has a smart feature that learns your schedule, and only recirculates when you need it. Also you can get a control that you can link to your phone that controls just about everything thing on the navien.
If you only have 1/2 a gas line, you will definitely NOT be fine. You need a whole gas line for a gas appliance to work. ;-)
Or maybe you meant a 1/2 INCH gas line.....
Thanks for that haha